How Did I Get Here? Judge Zia Faruqui and Developing Good Judgment

Hey everyone and welcome to How Did I Get Here, a podcast where we talked to lawyers to learn about their career and the steps they took to get there. I'm Shibuya Chaudhary and on today's episode is Judge Zia Furuki, a magistrate judge in the District of Columbia. Previously, Judge Furuki was a federal prosecutor with the U.S. Attorney's Office and an associate at Wilkie Far. Here's our conversation. Hey Judge, thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me, excited to be here. So you've spoken before on another Mubani podcast, Pathways, to magistrate judge. So I don't want people to go listen to that if they want to hear about what it's like being a magistrate judge, but I want to focus on your career and where you started and how you got to where you are. So the first question I have for you is, when did you decide you wanted to be a judge? Definitely when I took the oath, I was pretty sure that was the right thing to do. But I would say that my wife works for the Congressional Research Service and when she signed up for it, hopefully I'm not, I don't know if there's a spousal privilege, I should be checking before I disclose here. She loves her job for the record and if her boss is listening please, she loves it, don't let her go. So it's interesting because I just signed up for a job where I'm writing term papers for the rest of my life. And I remember I had to get a bunch of opinions out before a deadline and it was late at night I was like, oh my god, I was making fun of her and now I've signed up for a job where I'm just writing term papers again for the rest of my life until like, what did I do? But then one of them actually turned out to be really fun and I think that all kidding aside is like, I'm sometimes I wonder, you know, am I cut out for this and I think what's been really helpful is talking other judges, they still feel many of them like that or they're not really yet, you know, they're still figuring out what it means to be a judge because it's not like such a defined role. But concretely when I thought I wanted to be a judge was in 2016 there was a vacancy for the Magistrate Judge here in DC and it was really helpful that one of my former colleagues at the US Attorney's Office had applied and become a Magistrate Judge and he encouraged me to apply and then I talked to a district judge and he was like, yeah, you should do this. You could totally do this. And if they had not said that, I honestly do not think I would have done this because it just didn't seem like something I could do and I mean, just to be real like, they're at that time were zero Muslim federal judges, right? Judge Casabuy then became the first later than Judge Kareishi but there's never been anyone like that. I didn't have anyone in my family here that was a lawyer, a little alone in judge. And so it just sort of wasn't on my radar really and when they heard I was like, oh, that could be cool, I guess. So did you put that limitation on yourself just because you didn't see anybody else like you? I think yes, I think I think it part of it is I think like I didn't see someone who looked like me. I think part is also just like my own insecurity is I'm like, oh, that's all for people who went to like Harvard, Stanford and Yale. Some of it was just like, you know, I'm super lucky. I've been in a federal court here in DC and also in St. Louis practicing and like these judges are, you know, they're just so impressive. And like, you know, I think of myself like still is like, you know, I'm going to cool. You'll free degree. It should be here. But I think of him as like grown-ups. And so I'm like, I don't know, that's, I remember when I was a law firm and I was like, this partner was like, oh, you need to like find a cause. You're passionate about getting involved. I was like, okay, I'm here. I want to get involved in this one issue involves homelessness. And he's like, okay. So like, I was thinking I go like figure out these shelters and work these like, no, you're an attorney at a law firm like you should do that and be on the board. I was like, the board. That's for like old people. And he's like, that's you. And I was like, oh, okay. So I mean, I think it was just a variety of things. And I just didn't, I mean, I didn't even know if I'd be competitive or not. And like, that's not a good reason. Actually, it's a terrible reason. But I just thought I wouldn't even be considered. But then, you know, having those two mentors say like as judges, like, yeah, you could do this that really opened my eyes to is like, this is a possibility. And I think, you know, they were, that was, that was revelatory. Not having had, if I had not had them say that maybe, I mean, like the hardest question is like, if there were a bunch of people who look like me, but if I had someone directly tell me, like, do this, you can do this. I don't know, even if still then I would have, but I can tell you without that, it was, it was doubly as hard to imagine. Yeah. There's something special about the power of mentors and people encouraging you into roles. Do you, in hindsight, now, question certain decisions you made in your past, where you didn't have mentors to support you and you kind of excluded yourself at opportunities? Yes. And I want to put note just for the 2016 thing I did apply and I didn't, I didn't get the job. So I got at minimum in law school. When I speak to high school students, I tell them like, you should be looking for mentors now. Like, I wasn't thinking about that until I got told off of them and they were like, hey, we have an assigned mentor system was like, what, what is this? And they're like, oh, there's a budget. So you get a lunch. I'm like, I'm into this. And so, which is a message to law firms, it doesn't make a difference. Even when you're getting paid, everyone loves a free lunch, right? And so I think it was a big tremendous gap for me in law school just because it's not even like I didn't know what classes to take. I just had no, it was not on my radar at all about clerkships. Like I just didn't understand. And like, you know, I had a very, I think from having now talked a lot of other people immigrants like my parents, my family was just like, oh, after college, you go straight to law school, you go straight to the big law firm job and like, this is why we came to America to get you this high paying career, no breaks in between, certainly none, between college and law school. And I think if I try to explain to my mom about a clerkship and the salary cut, she'd been like, that's not why I came here. So try again, you can do that with your kids. And so, but like, I wouldn't have been equipped to even explain to her how valuable it would have been because I didn't know anything about it. Just like some of the things that like some of the people in my classmates or colleagues, I mean, frankly, most of my friends didn't do it either, you know, probably self-selecting group, who also like, you know, one of my friends is parents had, I mean, I don't think anyone of my friends, let's just say, had lawyers in their family, let alone clerks and lawyers in their family. And so, I very much regret, my greatest regret of law school is that I did not know that I should have pursued a clerkship because it, you know, I was lucky to have kind of a pseudo clerkship experience at the Department of Justice. I got someone who was just a fabulous writer and mentor and for like, we were on a big matter that was pretty important for like, you know, 68 months. And it was like, you know, having someone line at it all the time and talk to me about practice and move me for all argument, I was just like, oh, this feels like a clerkship and I can see why this is so valuable, but he did a clerkship and he loved it. So I just, I really wish that I had that mentor to teach me that, you know, it's funny. I talked to my, my law clerk now, actually. And he was talking about how it was first year of law school, how isolating it was. And you know, he was at Michigan, which has a pretty big Muslim population, but he felt isolated. And I was like, man, that's so interesting. Even at Michigan, he's just like, he's like, after my second year, I found my community, I found my group. But the first year of law school particularly is so isolating, I don't even know how people are doing now with Zoom. But like, if you have a mentor, that's a lifeline to break through that isolation. Yeah. No, you're right. Mentorship is huge. And they talk about it in law school, you know, everybody's going to have to network, you have to get mentors. They don't really tell you how. And nobody in life has ever really explained to me how it just sort of happens, right? You meet somebody and they take an interest or they see something in you. And, you know, a lot of that is sometimes it's helpful when they have some sort of shared identity, right? Because it gives, it's more relatable to the people, but sometimes it's not, right? You can have a female be a mentor to a male person or, you know, you get lucky that way, you just find kindred spirits, but it does, you know, it shapes people's careers and it sounds like, you know, you were able to find it later in life when they kind of steered you to where you are now. So after you graduated law school, you went to a firm. And then I think you did that for about four, five years and four years, four years. And then you said, I want to go to the department of justice, right? What made you do that? Well, so it's as often as the case, looking back, it's like, you know, oh, the things all lined up perfectly for me to become a judge, like getting the firm experience then to DOJ. And when I was in DOJ, kind of the particular experience that I had, at the time, it was all haphazard, right? Like there was no planning in part because I didn't have, I think mentoring or I didn't have a, I didn't even know that I needed to have a plan. I was just like, oh, I'm out of firm. This is ideal. I'll pay up all my undergrad and law school then. And then once I was there, I'm like, oh, I want to get like substantive experience. But if I hadn't had like a outside events kind of pushed me forward, I don't know. I often wonder like what is still be at the law firm, what I'd be at something else. And so my wife moved to St. Louis to get her PhD at the time she was not my wife. And I was like, okay, I love you, but I don't love you enough to take the bar exam. So there's literally only two jobs I could have. I applied finally to be a clerk, right? So then I was like four years out and I got an interview with two judges. I did not get it, which again, just goes to show you. I think clerkships are pretty competitive. But the other job applied for was to be an AUSA in St. Louis, because again, I wouldn't have to take the bar exam. And I was like, I keep saying I want to go to the department of justice. I don't actually know what that means. Like I said it because I was like, I'm interested in public service. And I hear that this is a great job, but I get like, I didn't know anyone, anyone who was in public service, let alone a federal lawyer, then get even smaller like the department of justice attorney. I had very few people talk to me, I had a mentor at my law firm, they want to tell me to join the board of the organization. And thankfully he was a DOJ antitrust. So he was someone who really helped guide me. But then I did, I mean, I-- it so resonates with what you say, it's like when people say like marriage is hard, we'll say that for another podcast, I'm like, okay, but what does that mean? Come create like, tell me what I need to work on, right? And people say like mentoring, like, you know, go find a mentor, but like, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Like, do what does that mean? Get on LinkedIn and message random people? Does that mean like, go to my alumni events? Because like, you can go to these things, but like, how do you make a real connection? That's not easy. And so, for me, it happened to be then, you know, just I had like, I had a narrative that was really easy for people to digest and understand, which is like, I want to be a public servant, and I want to be in the same time with the person that I'm going to ultimately marry. And so, like, people like, okay, I get that. Let me help you. Here's how I can help you. I know people at the U.S. Attorney's Office, or I know someone who is a lawyer in St. Louis, right? Like, it is also like, if you just go to someone and say like, mentor me, like, well, okay, what does that mean? But if you're like, I want to get to a particular area, or a particular job, that, you know, that gives them something to focus on that's concrete. And so, for me, I was lucky. And that, you know, that forced me to move out of the comfort of being in a law firm, which I knew and understood, to a thing that was more challenging. But I was lucky, because if I had had my wife, you know, ushering me along my path, I don't know where I'd be. Yeah, I was just going to, I'm glad you recognized that. It sounds like your wife was very instrumental to you in getting to where you are in your career. So you're very fortunate there. Yeah, if I got a fire from her job earlier, at least I can get her kudos now for that. So, you know, mentorship, it seems like it's really important to your career. So I want to kind of delve a little bit deeper into that. You talked a little bit about how, you know, having specific targets, gives a mentor something to latch on to help you kind of grow on that path. What other tips do you have for people who are trying to find mentors or develop mentors, or even turn mentors into sponsors? I think that there are some ways that, you know, they're just, you can go through traditional ways of finding mentors. Like, you don't have to be super creative and like bump into, or like have like, you know, fate, you just run into somebody and they are become like your best mentor. You can't wait for that. So the things I would say is, you know, alumni networks, like, if you are, you know, in New York, like, okay, there's a bunch of law schools there, but there are people from law schools all over the country who are in New York. And so the things that you can do is like, reach out to your school, I think, and say, like, oh, you know, I'm interested in talking to someone at the SEC who also went to, you know, the University of Washington, and the University of Washington alumni network might say, like, hey, here's this person. You don't have to wait on your university though. You can just get on social media, right? Like LinkedIn is a pretty easy one. So that I'm familiar with. And so like, you literally can write like SEC and, you know, University of Washington, and you can find somebody. And so I think that there are ways of using, you know, your alumni network, your professional network. If you're at a law firm, going and finding people at the law firm, or from people who better yet are alumni of that law firm, because they left the law firm and went somewhere else and usually are doing, you know, could be interesting things. I think that the alumni not just of school, but a law firm is good. Obviously, I think affinity groups are really helpful. You know, you have this two-bounding network. There's so many people there who are doing so many different things. You just reach out to someone at Blue Bonnie. I'm totally putting sugar on glass. Reach out and be like, hey, I want to get to, you know, the office of the New York Office of Attorney General. Can you help me find someone to talk there? And so, you know, I think it's looking at these different structures that are in place, right? Affinity groups, alumni of school, alumni of work, looking for people from where you're from and just trying to find them. That's the first part, but you got to do that second part, right? You've got to be comfortable cold emailing or calling people. The thing that I always tell people is like, if you already have those networks in place, you don't have to be brave, right? If your neighbor, your neighbor's dad was an attorney general or your mom's best friend, she was a senator, great. Then you can just go ask that person you're super comfortable with and grew up around and I met those people, right? I met people and been across them where like their uncle was literally an attorney general and so like, and their father was an attorney general, actually, I have a friend and that's great. I mean, that's not throwing shade at all of them. They should definitely make use of network. It's just if you don't have that to begin with, right? Then you have your building, their network is already a skyscraper. You're building yours and your future generation, if you're going to have a family, your building is from the ground up and so you've got to be comfortable, cold emailing, cold calling and just always we have a saying in chambers, I have new clerks and I was talking today and I said we have an important saying, ABN, always be networking. It doesn't matter to you for me because it's a judge. You should always be networking and so you can't turn it off. That's the thing. It's like because that's when you get like the random person at Starbucks who like you're waiting in line and then you're just like, oh my gosh, yeah, you know, hi, how's it going, right? That's what my mom does. I always say my mom and auntie, just being auntie, they are the best networker so they always will get into people's business, ask them what they're doing, who they are, who they know, and then they're like, oh, I'm going to file this away and this person can be of help and so you can't be shy. You've got to be bold with your structured networks and bold with your unstructured strangers that you meet or like, you know, you're just at like a random sporting event and like the person next to you, I met someone random, we had like a westlaw bag or something and I was just like, oh, I was traveling with my mom from a post bar trip in Italy and like we struck it up a conversation, that person turned out to be a Supreme Court law clerk, although she was super delabatic because she was humble. I was like, man, I would have led the conversation. That's great. Yeah, that's that's fantastic. So yeah, so that's a lot of great advice on just being bold and being vulnerable and putting yourself out there and you know, you talked about LinkedIn a lot and I got a note that you have an incredible LinkedIn presence. You you know, you post a lot, you give platform, you give your platform to a lot of people, you highlight things that are people are doing and you try to spotlight different organizations and people. So you're very active. I don't know how you manage that while being a judge and like having, you know, the docket that you do. But maybe we could talk about that. What is that, is that your ABN philosophies? That why you're so active on that? I know, I think so. Yeah, I want to be, I think I hope that it's very clear. Like I'm trying to promote people that I come across and think you have how can I lift up people because rising tides lift everybody up. I love that saying because I think it's true. I mean, the thing that's great about me is that I I'm okay. You know, if this is as high as my tide gets, that's great. You know, I'm always just like everyone else. I'd love that there, you know, there's always opportunities for growth. But someone once asked me about the specific things like, oh, you're worried about if you're saying some of this stuff on LinkedIn, you're talking about being Muslim or you're talking, you know, trying to feature some of the issues that you see. Are you worried that like this might come back to haunt you? And I was like, maybe it might, but I'm okay with that. This is a hill that I've, you know, I've been lucky to get here. One of the things I find so strange for I see people who have accomplished things far greater than me. But like you see them and they get there and they're still so nervous about letting their voice be heard. And it's like, what was the point of getting there if you don't get to like get up there and then just say like, okay, I'm here now. I want to do this. Like here's one. Here's my message and platform is. And so I like LinkedIn because I think it is primarily professional, professionally based. But it's an opportunity to just see all these incredible things. I see law students, lawyers, women, people of color, people of different faiths, Muslim, Jewish people. Everyone is doing, you know, I think some pretty neat stuff. And like, what's more fun than being a cheerleader? Like all I'm doing is just saying like, this person's killing it. That's awesome. And someone told me I'm the best height man. And I think the best compliments I could have ever received. Because I like seeing people do well. And I like trying to help them. You know, if I can, I mean, it's just so cool being a judge. You know, part of you're talking about like, how do I get here? I was like, well, I'm in here. So like, what's good about that? Like part of the cool thing about being a judge is you can help people in so many ways that you never knew. You can help them in your courtroom on a criminal case. You can help them on a civil matter like to move their docking along. But you can do things like, you know, this podcast, just talking to people. You can do them by featuring, you know, lost students or trying to get them plugged in with other mentors. It's just, there weren't these things when I was in law school. And that's not okay with me. And I have an opportunity now with honestly, and I appreciate the love. I'm like, how do you do all of it? But the thing that's easy about being a judge is that you don't have to put a ton of effort in to do some of these things to ask people to help somebody. They're just like, yeah, I want to help them. So it's just fun and easy to do. And the right thing to do. That's great. And I want to kind of jump to just a real quick question on when did you first feel like you were a judge? Was it when you put the robot on the first time you bang that gavel or what was it? It's a great question because I started during the pandemic. And so I used to joke that this was just a way that my family knew I was trying to escape Zoom School in my kids, but I'd go put on a Halloween costume inside in my bedroom and get on court. I think the first time, probably like I really felt like a judge, you know, because like in the beginning, just like, sure, you're ruling on things and they're funny things. Like once I asked for courts indulgence and I was like, oh, actually, that's me. I don't need to ask for courts indulgence. I mean, I definitely think there was a criminal case, and I'm I'll never forget this, where it was, you know, I was, so I started September 14th, 2020. So I stopped being in the USA, September 11th, that weekend. And like, you know, the good day, see, I didn't take any time off and started right away. And so, you know, within like a week or two, because I was on criminal duty, we had a case and the person was a first person I released from custody and the look of joy on the person's face because the government and they thought like the person had some mental health issues and couldn't be evaluated unless he was in jail. And I was like, oh, but it's COVID. So like, are you not meeting with like that? psychiatrist or whatever right and they're like oh no it's remote I'm like so like you can do that actually outside of the custody too and they're like oh yeah and it's just like you know that's the beauty of being someone who doesn't know what they're doing is that you don't know what you can't do and so it's like okay we're releasing it you know we can do this over zoom we'll figure it away and everyone was great the government's great the defense lawyer I don't public defender uh and and prequel's like actually yeah I think they're we could make make this work the look on this guy's face I will take to the grave with me it was a pure naked joy like I had never seen in my life he was like waving his hands to like the car like calling him over he's like I'm getting out I'm getting out he was so excited and I was like I'm doing this I am the reason you know conversely I see the opposite a lot of that which is way too real of when I you know hurting people and and rushing their you know their their dreams and their soul and and that is very real but the thing that lifts me up is that look of joy on that person's face and I knew it was definitively me right like I would did something that that wasn't being done I mean it was just an incredible feeling I cannot begin to describe it and it's why everyone should think about being a judge if you want to help people there's no other job where it's it's just you it's you get to decide yeah that's fantastic but that you know the story that you tell makes me you know I feel like I have to ask how do you deal with the the hard parts of the job right there's there's not not the hardest in like the intellectually difficult I know that's sentencing right like there's a burden on you in knowing that you're impacting somebody's life negatively how do you you know not bring that home or kind of deal with it in a way that isn't that you know that isn't detrimental to your your your wellness you know I don't have an answer to that question you know after the but I understand exact what you mean you know anyone who's applying to be a judge I'll tell you right now the easiest question to answer when someone says what's the hardest part about being a judge and you know I had a criminal but I ground right as a prosecutor not personally but and so they were like you know oh you're like ready for me to be like oh it's a civil stuff I'm really nervous about that I was like it's easy the answer is detaining a human being putting them in a cage no matter how appropriate and right it is to do that can never ever be an easy thing to do because it is antithetical right to like what we think about our country was founded upon the ideas of liberty the pursuit of happiness and one of those things are happening and custody now it is righteous and necessary to do but that doesn't mean it's hard and to your question of then how do I manage that it is incredibly challenging I might one of the mentors a magistrate judges so I deal with pretrial attention so you know when a person it's it's closest in time to they were just free and now they're presumed innocent right every single one of these people and they're facing pretrial attention it sounds crazy if I'm innocent should you not be trusted to be at home and so I had a really hard case and I called my mentor up and you know the thing that's so neat about being a judge is the fellowship that you find from other judges they never tell you what to do they always say trust your judgment here's what I would do but not a single one's like oh you got to do it this way which is so cool because they trust you even they have like 20 or 30 years on you and so I call somebody's just like hey here's what I would do I don't know at least this person but you got to do what you think is right that's why they picked you because they trust your judgment not about like knowing the law but like your innate judgment like are you a person with the right values when we follow the law and in this instance the law was directed me to detain some when it calmed back and I just told him I was like I was so angry I'm so frustrated I can't believe that you led me to this job and I just want to hang up the phone on you he's like you should it's a really hard job and I'm sorry and there are definitely times where I feel that way so then I hung up the phone and I was so mad I may tell my wife I was like I can't do this for the rest of my life and like you know just it's not anything I think controversial to say I mean if you can look at demographics the demographics are primarily men of young men of color who come before I mean and so you know you have to wonder why is that the case and then when you start wondering about those things and things that's happening people you wonder what is my role and my how am I helping am I just hurting and it is extremely challenging and hard to be there and to say it is me judge Faroukis not the prosecutor it's never the prosecutor who's putting them in custody it is me it's my choice and I have no good answer other than I've tried to find ways to atone for that so I am involved in our reentry court so that's what we do when people are getting out of supervision trying to establish a mental health court try to divert people from getting into incarceration I try to find other ways to get involved with returning citizens in their lives to support them because I think that there is a debt and I need to you know if you view it like in terms of like you think of religion and debt and you're trying to tone or you just think about it from like a social a humanistic whatever it is I think that there's opportunities for me to try to help people and I think that's the only way I know for my wellness to feel better so if I try to do things that's why it's so funny people like oh you're doing this you're so kind it's like no it's purely selfish I just feel better that's what I have right now that's a great answer I'm very honest answer so when you're talking when you're looking at the you know the demographic issue that you just talked about do you feel you have the ability to make change more as a judge or when you're a prosecutor when you had the opportunity to maybe not bring forward charges well what I'll start back when I was at the US Attorney's Office you know I had the best part about the job was the discretion the discretion to say no I'm not going forward with this case or I'm I had a case where you know when I was being interviewed to be a manager judge I talked about this we dismissed a case after was charged and I'll never forget the defenceler I mean she was blown away and it was one of the best moments because you've got to do the right thing and you were you were you know I was worried and my supervisor what are you worried about of course if you don't think this case it turns out you know the respects that new facts that came up that we were unknown at the time so I think that there is a real possibility for impactful change as a prosecutor you know I always tell people who want to go to the instance projects that is an amazing job but there's not enough innocence project jobs out there let's go to the job where you don't I mean I think the innocence project would agree they would love to not exist right it's like an oncologist I would love to never have that job in children colleges would say we don't have a cure for cancer but maybe there's a way to cure the innocence project is by having thoughtful fair you know people prosecutors who have different backgrounds and experiences so they can understand things and so I think that you can make a huge impact to the prosecutor but I think it's it's very clear my mind you have more of an impact as a judge because part of what I think draws me to the job is that you know at a detention I'm hearing I'm the person's worst you know one of the worst days of their lives the person they're seeing is me and I've had an actual hearing right because I was in my this before I got the Halloween costume it's actually one of the reasons I got the robe because I had my real robe at the courthouse but I was doing so many hearings from home is the defendant in a hearing did not know that I was a judge and I mean I think it's pretty clear in part just I don't look like the judge is like what you're the judge he's like no it's like yeah I am he's like oh my god I'm so sorry but I think that makes a real difference when you see someone who sounds like you looks like you maybe looks similar to you or has maybe you think like that person might have walked a mile not in my shoes but in similar shoes and so that creates legitimacy to the judiciary and if I can create judicial legitimacy or contribute to that there are cascading effects that are you know enormous because our entire system is predicated on legitimacy we don't have you know we don't have a military we don't have a police force the judiciary exists only at the whim of people believing that they should trust us and have faith in us and a lot of people don't have faith in that because I think oh judges are you know they're in the books pocket for the government or they're they're not gonna understand me or my life experience you know I had I've had cases where I've talked to people about personal experiences personal experience with law enforcement personal experiences with family laws and I you know I had one where guy you know he got emotional in hearing and I still I detained that person but the end he thanked me he's just like I appreciate you you get me and that was again that was revolutionary you have it someone who I detained but still say that that I understood him which I felt like I did but to him to say that he had no reason to be nice to me but him to say that I felt like the impact of that was far greater than any one-off case I could have done as a prosecutor when you're talking about your phone call with your mentor and he told you well you know they gave you this job because they trust your judgment it's your decision how do you think you developed that judgment right I know it's like a it's like a basic question but even on the in-house side the best in-house attorneys are the ones that have strong judgment the ability to decide like you know how to move this case forward or like just making it a decision and that's ultimately what a judgment is and it's really applicable to everything it's not just a judicial thing or a lawyer thing so is it do you feel like you've had good judgment growing up? Did you develop that as an US attorney or maybe a law firm? So I think stepping back to the law firm right I think everyone there is like fixated on like oh I've got to get a deposition I've got to get a trial I've got to get this like specific thing so I can get a specific experience and I think that that's not right I do think you should seek those things because professionally they're important but on a larger scale about you're absolutely spot on good judgment is the essential feature of a lawyer I don't care if you're transactional lawyer I don't care if you're in-house if you're a litigator a judge whatever it is at bottom that you have to make decisions quickly, frequently. And that requires good judgment. It doesn't require knowledge, you know, encyclopedic knowledge. And so, yeah, getting a deposition is good because it puts you in a situation of responsibility, but you can get responsibility, right? Like I went on work trips where I did white collar investigations. You would go to another country, you would meet the client there. You know, you do interviews of witnesses and things. I'm like, I kept thinking like, this isn't building my legal skills. Like I could have done this in college. And that's true. I could have done some of the academic part of it in college, but I was not certainly mature enough as anyone would tell you in college or even more school, ready to be dropped in a foreign country where a client is super nervous about like a government investigation, you know, foreign culture carrying the name of, you know, think about when I was at the US trade office. When I went to another country and I represented the United States of America, that was a responsibility that was far greater than getting up in court and saying, you know, Zia Farouki on behalf of the United States, I was actually a forward facing person for the United States, a representative. So finding opportunities where you get tremendous responsibility and then just getting used to that, getting it normalized to you like, oh, I can do this. And I didn't realize that at that time. So when I was a law firm, I didn't think I had responsibility, but I did indeed. And that was important to when I became an AUSA. Now there, it's crazy, right? Like when I went, I left a law firm. I talked to, again, I didn't know any AUSA. So I found a friend who I'd never spoke to and I called her up. I was like, oh, I'm, you know, like what should I do for parents? I was like, look, when you make a mistake at your current job, someone loses money and that's terrible. When you make a mistake as an AUSA, someone's life is ruined and you violated their constitutional rights. I go, and you know, of course, me, my natural reaction is to make a joke. I was like, wow, no pressure. And she's like, yeah, exactly. It's absolute pressure. You should feel like you're under pressure constantly. I was like, oh my god, okay, it's just got real. But she was right. I mean, the pressure, I don't care if it's a misdemeanor case, to like a felony case. It is someone's life at stake. And so again, it's not about you had 50 trials or 100 trials. I've seen lawyers, frankly, as a judge, who have had a ton of experience. And I have seen people with very little. But the people who have been pressure tested, you know, sometimes it's life, right? Like for me, it's like losing my dad at a young age, going with my mom through not one, but two rounds of cancer. Like, I think that makes me a better lawyer with good judgment because I had those challenges. And so I think it's important people don't fixate on like, I haven't done this. I think it's important to try to see like, have I gotten opportunities where I've had to make hard choices? And, you know, how did I do? And how can I improve and feeling confident? I mean, so much of good judgment is confidence. Like, I did do that and I can do this. - Yeah, it sounds like what you're emphasizing is development of the soft skills and leadership skills. And not just those, you know, professional legal experience skills to make you a more well rounded person. So that's great. You know, just kind of jumping back to your time as a US attorney, what skills did you, you know, need to develop early on? Then you felt like you didn't get it at a law firm and you needed it as a government attorney. - Yeah, so I mean, dovetail him, what we were talking about before, you know, I think the hardest part is those sort of soft skills like you're saying in like, you know, the leadership skills. You do have to have the technical know how as well. And so first, if the US attorney's office I got an elevator and it's going up to the floor that was on and there's a woman in there and she's like, oh, I have my arrangement today. Can you tell me like, where is that? Like, what do I have to do or something? Like she was asking me like a random person in the elevator and I was like, oh, man. So the code of ethics bar me from giving you legal advice 'cause I'm a attorney for the government. She's like, oh, I'm sorry, I was like, oh, no problem. And then I literally went and googled the arrangement which I was a prosecutor, okay. So I had no knowledge of what I was doing. And I remember, you know, I think part of it was a different legal markets or things like that but I remember, you know, there was at least one point where one of my mentors in that office 'cause of that point, I knew I was like, I got any mentors. So as much as I didn't know what it was doing. And I went and he's like, it seems like it's your law firm. You didn't learn too much about like the kind of in court part of the law, I was like, at his accurate. But that's the beauty of the government is that you've learned by experience and that's expected, right? Like they're throwing you in. He wouldn't end up coming to me to my first hearing in federal court 'cause something came was like, you're gonna be fine. I was like, how do you know that? He was like, I just know it. And now looking back, I understand what he means. But at the time, I was pretty terrified but you know what happened to hearing? The federal public defender held my hand and walked me through that hearing, which was, again, also that was super important for me to see is like, this is not like TV. You can help each other. And it's better for his client. That like, I was like, I don't know what's next. He was like, oh, I think you're on a, like, what? A.O.S.A. for Rookie, you probably should be focusing on this. And then like, I went and he's like, oh, here's, you know, he had to meet something. And it's like, take a look at this. I think that will answer your question about the supervised release question. So the technical skills, I do not think you can learn in a classroom. I think you can only learn them by doing. And so what's great about the US Attorney's Office and great about the government, by a love public service, is you get a ton of responsibility and you'll have experience. I always say, like, I didn't thrive at a law firm. I did not thrive at law school because I didn't understand what I needed to thrive, frankly. You know, my whole life had been in school and then that same model of like, do this, memorize this, this is the way it's going to be. And the way that I started to excel was when I was putting to spaces like, make this your own place. Do what you want with it. It's all yours. It's not somebody else's. And I was never motivated, honestly. Like, I'm not a self-motivated person, but when I got that, I was like, I like this. And so finding my space was important. And then I wanted to learn the technical side and you do. But like, you can't get so hung up on the, I don't know what, like, the rules, the objections are, like, and memorizing the textbook, because like, a lot of this stuff is just, like, you just got to get in there and you figure it out and be comfortable, like, being comfortable that you don't know things is the true key to being a good lawyer, and still going forward. Like, and knowing when to stop. - Right. - Sure, like, not be negligent. But there's a big, big delta between negligence and being confident and saying, like, I can still figure this out. - Yeah, and I think I see the same thing on the in-house side where you have some lawyers that really just want to stay in their lane. And they are so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. And then there are other people who, like you just said, they understand that a lawyer's job isn't to know all the laws in the world. It's to have good judgment and no one to ask for help, but also, okay, swimming on the deep end and knowing that somebody will throw you a lifesaver. You just have to, you know, tread water a little bit. And then, you know, what you said about government experience, I tell, when I talk to law students, I tell them, you know, summer internships, externships with government agencies. If you can't afford to do it, do the job, like, do a, you know, a government job right out of law school, 'cause like you said, the amount of responsibility you get right out the gate is you will never get that in the private sector. And it really helps develop a lot of those leadership skills that we were talking about because they just have the volume is so much, they're just like, just go do it. And it's okay if you fall down, we'll get you back up and you'll get it, you'll get it right the next time. - Thank you. - Yeah, so it's definitely great experience. - I guess there's no saying, I just like more, and I never heard it until I got to the law firm as staying in your lane. You know, you're saying that it's so true. And what's crazier is what you said, is that there are a lot of people who put themselves into their lane and they won't get out. I reject someone saying to me to get in my lane, but I am not gonna be like, you know, take for example, being a judge. Like, oh, that's, your lane is not to try to help people, you know, as they're being rehabilitated. Just to, you know, that's the prisons or the probation office or whatever. And like, I reject that. My lane is as big as I can make it to be. And again, like you said, someone's gonna help. Like if you're overstepping, I had a hearing literally today, where the federal public defender, I was like, what can I do this with the jail? How does person get out? She's like, judge, I don't know if that's what you want to do. And so I was like, okay, thank you. I appreciate you. And the prosecutor's like, judge, yeah, you can't do that. So, you know, there are people will be there and you know, even do a judge, right? Like it would so easy for the federal public defender to be like, yeah, do it. But they were, you know, people are there when they see you're trying. They'll help you make sure you don't get too far out of your skis. - Yeah, now, you know, I feel like we can talk, we can talk a lot and you have a lot to, there's a lot of information you have on networking and developing your career. And so maybe we'll bring you back for part two. But just one last question on what is your, you know, one piece of advice for anybody that wants to be like you? - Don't be like me, be, be, be. - How about that? - I mean, for example, it's not be like you. - Yeah, but I give it to you like you. - Yeah, thank you. - Yeah, I'll say the same thing. Don't be like me, don't have a career like me. Be better than me. I have a career that's better than mine. Be a district judge, be a circuit judge, be a Supreme Court justice. I think the most important thing is that again, don't put yourself in a box. If you believe that you have a ceiling, that is your ceiling. And usually people's ceiling is even lower than what they think it is. And so if you set yours low, that's as high as you're gonna get. I think that my advice to anyone, as they're trying to think about kind of like, hey, how do I steer my career to get where I want to be? The advice I give is like it's true. You do need to be in the right place of the right time. Honestly, that's the beauty of being in New York, being in D.C. is that there are a lot more right places. And so you don't have to worry as B.S. so much of the right time, right? Because you just run into people who are doing so many things. There's just so many people there. And so many people are lawyers or they're in business world. And so you just kind of, you have more happenstance sort of meetings. But even if you don't need to be in Manhattan, Brooklyn, whatever, you can be in St. Louis, Missouri. You can't just wait for the right place, right time. You've got to put yourself out there all the time, because then. once in a while there will be like a door that opens and then you'll be there to jump through that right place at that right time. But if you're not putting yourself out there and just waiting for it to happen, it's not going to happen. You've got to be aggressive. You've got to really believe in yourself, bet on yourself, put yourself out there and just try. Like, if you're like my ceiling is Supreme Court justice, what do I have to do to become that? Well, it means look at the path about people who became judges, how they became justices. Think about that's something you can do, but if it's not and you think like you want to create your own path, then believe in yourself to do that, but then find mentors to help you build that path out and so that they can be there to, you know, be the headwind, wishing you in that along that path, but you just really got to put yourself out there. It's great, ABN, always be networked. Always be networked. That's right. All right, thanks a lot, judge. It's great having you. Thanks. This podcast was brought to you by the Muslim Bar Association of New York. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. To learn more about Mubani, visit our website at Mubani.org or check us out on Instagram.