How Dan Nigro Builds Superstars | Ep. 195 | Rewind

Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one we got the driver's license on day 25 it's like this rat race that everyone's in to try to just like book as many sessions with this many people I was like that's not what this is about If you wrote a good song with that person spend 20 days with that person is it easy for you? No, not of not of making music is easy. I just think people need to actually just take more risks Heves you're feeling ever been wrong. I spent like three years We have all these productions piling up and these like half written songs. You're looking back like at the last month or two that you did You're like none of these songs are any good and I just did that for so long and ended up with like nothing I wish that writers and producers like That's just how you're gonna like end up having songs that matter and songs that mean things to people is like when you're really like We're building like an icon here, you know, but I don't think you could have a superstar person without This season is presented by NMPA the National Music Publishers Association Champions of songwriters and publishers Welcome to and the writer is I am your host Ross Golan When today's guest was first on this podcast. He was a hit producer who was super now. He's a bonafide super producer But over the last few years since he has solidified himself as a conductor of the zeitgeist Last time we discussed his ability to break new stars, but all he's done is repeated the seemingly impossible feet Now with a Grammy and an Ask App songwriter the year under his belt He hasn't just dipped his toe into being a record exact with amusement records Island records as a partner. He's become the guy to whom you want to sign So let's get to his second episode and the writer is Daniel Leonard Nigrow It's good to have you back in this time in person last time it was on zoom because I think it was during the COVID era it was it was Let's start with um, you know you you have uh You know at that time and people can go back and get a lot of your background So we don't have to repeat too much of that you have to listen to both episodes to do it Yeah, I mean like otherwise we're just repeating the same thing like you don't have to be here But instead like you're coming with like uh armed with so much new So many new things to talk about and I'm really excited about you know, uh, you know, Chapel Rowne She she existed as a human then but you know she didn't exist as your artist yet Um, I don't think I think or maybe you just started working on it No, it's probably just around that's what I probably started to 2020 2021 was probably when we started we I don't think we made anything official until maybe 2022 but we were definitely Talking I'm not sure if she was still at that point on Atlantic or not, but but we were trying to figure out a way to like move her project forward Well, this is interesting and let's just jump to the chapel room. We'll we'll get to the other stuff later, but You know, there's something about artist when they get dropped from their first deal That uh gives them this clarity of how the business works Yeah about who they are as an artist because during that time they realized who they are as an artist and also the label Realize us who they are as an artist and they don't necessarily mesh right you know But there's a long list of people who got dropped right you know who who they're I mean Katy Perry got dropped and one republic got dropped and If Jonas Brothers got dropped and Chain Spokers got dropped we could just keep going on this list of people where their second deals the thing that worked right but What is it that made you see somebody who got dropped and didn't say you know it That's not really the right relationship for me and steady were like no, this is an opportunity To me it was the most exciting thing that ever happened like when when she got dropped I was like my only thought was like Yes, great like finally so you worked together during that matter. We worked together before she While she was on Atlantic and we had made Pink Pony Club and California and the song loved me anyway And basically I was so frustrated. Well, I should we were both frustrated because we had made these songs and especially when we made Pink Pony Club We were kind of like well We just wrote a great song and we sent it to the label and they were like well It's cool, but like can you like maybe like Pink Pony Club like that's a weird title and there's two guitar solos in the song Can you at least remove one of the guitar solos and I was like are you guys crazy like this song is Insane like I don't mean to you know toot my own horn, but like this is pretty special like this is gonna be I like this feel song feels really important, you know Like we should probably do something like release it and they're like oh, we don't know And anyway, so it was very clear to me from the beginning that there was a disconnect between like what the label Wanted from her and what she actually was as an artist and I just was like and I was learning it was for me as a songwriter a producer I was learning about Like the ins and outs of a record label and how to deal with them from the side of being a producer and how it could go so You could have such a disconnect between like what you want and basically I was it was one of the first times that I ever really push back because I remember you know A lot of times when you're a producer or songwriter and you get notes from the label you I would imagine a lot of people listen to the notes You know if the label gives notes on a song Whereas when I when they gave me notes, I was like no like I'm not changing that like you crazy like this song is great Like and this is how it's gonna come out like you guys can release it, you know or not But like this is this is how it's gonna be and I mean and I don't even say that with like with an attitude of It was more so like I just felt so passionate about it, but I was like how can you not see This clearly, you know, it also depends who the Who the label is who at the label like the person giving a note there are certain people where when they give a note it comes from a Studios place it comes from a passionate place where you can they can justify their note Um in a way that that might be worth at least trying I'm not there somewhere you're like No, I'm of course. I'm not gonna do that. I think there's there's definitely A&Rs that I listen like I will Take their advice and other ones that I'll be cautious of their advice um, but it was just a moment of like feeling so much clarity as to like I felt so strong about Chapel as an artist and I felt so strong about the song that I was like this is clearly is not like We're clearly not on the same page and yeah, so when so to answer your question, do you help her get off the label? I didn't know I didn't help with I didn't help with any of that. I was just like I just told her like I'm gonna be here no matter what you know like don't like because I obviously as an artist she was very upset like oh like You know my label doesn't you know believe in me, you know, so it's like it's a it's a hard thing for anybody to kind of Feel that feeling and you know realize that that's the case and then but for me I kept on saying you're like if and when they drop you That's probably gonna be the greatest thing that never happens because I'm not leaving You know and I want to and if that's the case then then you can just release music whenever you want and we the two of us can A&R it together which is ultimately what we did I was like as soon she got off the label I was like all right. This is now let's go, you know like we it we wrote like right after that we had written My kinkas karma and we had naked him and hadn't kind of finished already and I think what was the other song we had I think we had one more song at that point and we were working on casual So like we had all these songs that I was like You have all these these amazing things like you just got to figure out a platform to express You know who you are as an artist, you know, maybe you know getting on TikTok getting on Instagram and you know It's like you're gonna have to do it yourself like I mean, I can't really help you with like That that part of it but like in terms of like I was like you don't need to pay me like you don't like I just believe in this music so much that I just want to help you release it like let's figure out a way to do it, you know Well, when did you say we'll Okay, let's make this an official where you do get you know, I mean frankly where you do get paid for your work You know what's the difference of saying okay, you get you don't have to pay me But also, you know, I want to start my own thing and help you release this music Basically like once you started for it for this yeah, basically basically after she really we she like self-released I think naked him and happening my kinkas karma were like self-released I put them out of what did she release this through like I don't know but Distributor like yeah, like basic. I don't even know what the shit is like she would have a score something for maybe I don't CD baby. Yeah, she used something to just release them, you know, and she burned CDs She burns the body And and she and she released the songs and then and it was once we like started to realize that the relationship was It felt like good like I was like oh, we like you like working with me on these songs I like working with you like we're writings we're our creative relationship is good So let's like create a label to release these songs and then we partnered up with islands because then we like you know We basically had the record almost done we had like 90% finished and so it was like okay like we have the record We've a and art it we had like Chapel had like all of the visuals she wanted for it already like picked out and then we were just like okay We just needed someone to act like a you know a major distributor to like actually release this, you know Amazing, I mean it's it's cool to see also You know it's It's a very male, heavy industry, and on the business side of labels, obviously, there are a lot of great women A&R people, but to see a younger, female artist take control of her career with a partner like that is really unique, and it's exciting to watch. Shout out to Ireland, especially Justin Eastcheck, my homie, who's having an amazing moment. It was crazy, as you could have probably brought that prior to a few places, and we're in Beijing saying this to me when he was first starting to work at Atlantic, Atlantic wasn't the hottest label, and then it became really hot, and then it goes over the inner scope that was already doing what it is, and then you go to Warner, and it wasn't the hottest label, then it became the hottest label. You could have brought this to probably inner scope, where you have a couple of other projects that you work on that are really successful, but you go to a label that has, was on the come-up, and then all of a sudden, you know, the chapel's part of the source. Well, I think, why do you go to Ireland in Chapel, or instead of any now? Well, a lot of it had to do with Justin, Justin, we both felt like Justin really understood what the project was supposed to be, and understood the grandness of it. To me, I was like, this is like Bowie, this is like Madonna, like this is not just some artist, this is like, we're building like an icon here, you know? And I think that Justin was the first one to like pinpoint, it's kind of like Bowie and like Madonna, and I'm like, okay, like you see what this could be, you know, like, and so the fact that he saw it right away, and also the fact that Ireland's small, like I think that chapel was afraid of like being a part of a really big label where there's like hundreds of artists, like Ireland still felt like somewhat indie in nature in terms of like it doesn't have a large roster, you get a lot of personalized attention, and we felt like she needed that. And so it felt like the right place for her, which she can actually like, talk to everybody, like the marketing department, the social media department, whatever it is, like you can call Justin easily and just talk to him about it, you know? She just felt like, okay, like it's family vibes, everyone's readily available for conversation and for like making sure to navigate this in the right way, and that felt like the right place to be. I think a lot of artists want to be Bowie or Madonna, but aren't. And I mean that in a sense, or it's like the desire to be bombastic and have the, you know, all the different looks and everything. A lot of times people feel like they can't afford that or they can't figure out how to do it. When Chappell was first starting this stuff, it's not like she had the hits, no one was looking, you know? Like she made them look. Yeah. What, how does somebody go from, you know, the conversation you were saying, well, you're gonna have to be the one who goes on TikTok and does this, right? To becoming the one who does it, you know, all other people are trying, they just can't do it. What does she have? Well, I mean, I really feel like it's as simple as like she just has it, you know? And it's that feeling. I mean, it's so cliche and so like it's, it's so like a june se qua where you're just like, I don't know. Like you meet the person, you get a feeling. Like there's a feeling in your, in your gut and you go like, you know, they, they're real. You know, it's real. They're not, they're not trying to sell you, you don't, you don't feel like you're being sold something. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how to, I don't know how to explain that. One of the cool things of being there when you write a song with somebody is, you know, nobody's ever heard this song before, but you have because you were there and you remember the process of doing it, the seeing that happen, but on all of the songs and the artists blowing up the way she's really just growing, how do you, you know, it's cool watching you post, like, Hey, this is my artist. I'm really excited about this first release and then seeing where it's at. It's cool to just see that from afar. Right. Does it feel real? Sure. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if real is a, I don't, I don't know how to explain it. It's like, you definitely want all that, like, hmm, how do I say it? I guess it doesn't, not if it really like sinks in in the right, in the way that you think it's like, Oh, now it's like, it's just, it's, now we're here where we want to be. We've been trying to get here. So now it all feels like right or something. I don't, I don't know it's, it's, there's no there there, which we've talked about, you know, it's like, you think that there's like a ticker tape parade for you and your success or whatever. And it's like, you don't really know what you're aiming for, you just kind of aiming to move forward. Yeah. I mean, the things unravel the way I think. I've talked to Chapel about this because she's, which I, which I love is that she's not really like, she doesn't, she doesn't care about the numbers. She's like, I just want to make good music and I, I want to release. And that's always been her philosophy is like, we, like, even making the songs that we've put out and even like putting out good luck, baby, which is like, I just want to make good music. And when I feel like I have a great song that I, that I've written that I love, I want to put it out in the world because I want to share my passion for this song, you know? And she's like, I don't really care about the numbers or, you know, what it's doing and even like, you know, working with her recently, and like, I'm like, this happened. She's like, oh, cool. Like, she's like, she's like, not looking, you know? What's an example of that? Like just even the fact that like, good luck, baby, was like number 10 on, you know, top 10. I was like, it went number top 10, and she's like, oh, that's good, right? You know? And you're like, yeah, that's good. But I, I guess my point is that it's not really that, but just to say that like, those numbers are, to me, it's exciting, not because of the actual number, but what's exciting to me and what I've said to her is like, it's, it's so awesome to think that you made this song that you're so passionate about that you love. And then you can like, actually visually see that like, and everybody else loves it too. And that's a pretty cool feeling, you know, like just simply that has nothing to do with numbers. It's just the fact that like, you're just going like, no, like, like two million people listen to this song yesterday, you know? There's two million people around the world that were like, I want to put on this song because it makes me feel good. You know? And I'm like, and that, that to me, that feels what feels great to me, you know? Yeah. And it's different than, you know, radio, which I'm, you know, is another amazing success, but when people choose to listen to it, they go and they press the button, and they press the playlist, and it gets a stream. It's like, they make that, it wasn't thrust upon them, they made the effort to go and click on it. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. It's pretty, I feel so like lucky and excited at the same time for the fact that like, it's happening for her because it's just, I mean, she just is that good. Yeah. There was a podcast that went around an episode that a bunch of the music industry sent me. Maybe about three years ago, it's just like, there's no more superstars in the music business. I'm sure you've heard this too. And I remember reading that being really upset when I read that because I just feel like people aren't trying to make superstars. Like, I don't know. I read that and I was like, who wrote this article and who are the ones that are interviewing for this? Because that's not cool to say. Well, you need to develop somebody who has a repertoire that can be, you know, if you have a hit and you have nothing below it, you know, if what happened with Good Luck Babe that was really helpful is that it wasn't her only song out. So people who were discovering that were like, oh, this is a whole human. Right. This isn't just like the first single that blew up. No. And when somebody has the first single that blows up and they don't have any songs out underneath it, it can be detrimental to their growth. But instead, like people can dive into the person. But with strangers like, and maybe we talked about it three years ago, I don't think that right around when that came out, but you know, people were saying, well, Billie Eilish was the last and it was same era kind of as like Lizzo and all these people kind of like broke all at the same time, but they were the last to really get a hold of like Instagram when that was big, when that first started, whatever. And then there's the TikTok people, but everyone's shuffling through. Why do people stick? You ended up with probably the two most obvious examples of that being false, you know? Is that because of the music or is that because of the person? It's because of, I would hope it's because of both, you know, and like a very, very good combination of both of those things. I think the person is very important, but I don't think you can have a superstar person without, and have it feel culturally important without good music, you know? So I would hope that it would be both of those, I like to think it's both of those things. I think when I work with Olivia and with, with Chapel, like it's so, there's such a craft to the songwriting and there's so much like editing and reworking and making sure it like really, really trying to stay true to the process of making a great recording, you know? And I feel like, I think there's a lot of people out there in the pop world that do it, but then there's also a lot that don't spend that much time to really like get a song right. Yeah, because you're just releasing something to get something out, you know, versus trying to have something in that. Yeah, I feel like that's like a method that a lot of people take, it's just like releasing a bunch of music. And I think it works, you know, for certain people, but it's not what I, you know, I don't think I asked this then but was there a mentor on the producing side that really really sort of, you know, a few pee. I can't remember who was the second. - Ariel, Ariel was big. I mean, like my mentor like was Ariel and like watching how he made records and when he made like the Heim record or made the Vampire Weekend record, he spent like a year making it, you know? And to me like seeing and being able to be in, like I was now, I didn't work on those records at all, but like I'm friends with him, so I would periodically over the months of a process, see how like a song can evolve and really learn about like, really trying all the avenues for a song, like does it do the drums come in here? Does this, is it this tempo? Is it sung hard, is it sung soft? Like, you know, like, like really expressing all the different versions of a song, you know? Or, you know, just trying out all the different-- - Just have artists that are willing to do that. - I know a lot of artists are not willing to do that. - Well, that's, and I don't work with those artists. Like I meet artists all the time that like people are like, oh, you'd like work with them. And I'll do a day with them and I'm like, nope, like I can tell right away. Like we are not compatible, you know? I need someone who's willing to come into the studio and hash it out with me and be like, by the way, can you get on the microphone again? I know you're saying this already, but can you sing it again? Can you sing it again? Can you try it like this? Can you, can we try it in a different key? Like it's not feeling right, you know? - Yeah, and even lyrically and all that stuff, that witty lyric sometimes that happens right away, but to follow it up is really hard, you know, to write that verse that can stand, you know, where that verse melody isn't throw away. - Right, you know. - And both the lyric and chapel, like we hash out songs. Like we deep, deep. - Yeah, the good, like babe story is that it has like a million reasons. - We tried four different keys for the song. We rewrote the lyrics. We like, I mean, like part of it was me that I just didn't like actually, 'cause I never, when we wrote the song, like we laid down a scratch vocal and like, it didn't feel like, if something felt good about it, but it wasn't like, to me, I wasn't like, oh my god, like we wrote, like the best song ever. But it, because also the original lyric was Good Luck Jane, and I remember like chapel was like, that was a original idea, like was coming up in the name, like Jane Doe, which is like Good Luck Jane, and I remember being like, I wasn't like sold on Jane, you know, and then like the, one of the lyrics was, the, yeah, you had to stop the world to stop the feeling was originally, like you had to stop the world to stop wet dreaming. And that was like, and it was like more playful, and it was like sort of like a joke. And then like, and that was literally on the original demo, and I remember like being like, I don't know about that. I don't know how to feel about that. I'm not, not opposed to like using the word wet dreaming in a song, but it just didn't feel right, you know? And yeah, but like obviously like, you know, on reflection and having the fact that, that chapel and I have a relationship, like that we work all the time that I could, she can come over a week later, and I could play her the demo, and she'd be like, yeah, that's weird, you know? Yeah, you want to rethink it? You want to rewrite that lyric? Like a lot of people aren't afforded those opportunities when they're working with an artist, and then you know, one's the Nashville, and you're in LA, and you got to the demo, and then people are like, where's the demo? And you're like, and I'm always, I subscribe to like, I won't send it, you know? Like someone's like, send us what you got. I'm like, no, because if you, if you, if I send it to you, you're not going to like it. And then you're going to tell me, you know, like, and I already know that it's not good, you know? Like, so why would I send, why would I do that to myself? But if like, if you gave me another two hours with your artist, I can fix this song. Like, I'm hearing it clearly, what needs to be fixed. I just need a little time to fix it, and I can't do it. I physically can't re-sing this vocal myself. I mean, maybe you can now a day, I, but like. But I'm like, no, I need the artist to come back in the room, and we need to rewrite this if you even want to hear the demo, you know? This is the most valuable thing that you will probably say in this podcast, because I try to tell my producers that are signed to unknown. And I'm like, hey, man, you know, you don't owe anyone this demo, if you send every writer you know is going to say, can I have this, you know? And you can just say, hey, I'm still working on it, or you can say no. Or like, because surprisingly, people are like, oh, okay. And if you send it, all you're doing setting yourself up for someone to be like, I like the original, or you're setting someone up for, you know, it really takes somebody who's in it with you, who can listen to that demo, be like, how can I beat that? How can I beat that? How can I beat that? Then you can maybe send it to that one artist or that one co-writer. But I'm always trying to get the producer to be like, just send it to me, and let's go over notes together. Before we send it to the artist, because we'll refine it 10 times on the production set before the artist hears it. But as soon as they hear it, they're like, you know, it's locked in. I mean, we never made a demo of good luck, babe. That's, I mean, like, because it wasn't good enough to make a demo. Like, when the song was like ready to be listened to by people, and it sounded pretty close to what everybody heard. Like, that's when I made a bounce of it. Yeah. It sounded my hard drive for a year and a half. Yeah. As like a, as like literally like a little idea that was sitting on my hard drive, you know? And it wasn't until we found it. You know, and it wasn't until we found the right key. And then like, actually, like I found, like I, because it was just like a, like a little loop. And then when I actually like in the room with her, like started adding some, like, some, like, synth strings, just as like a, like, is this like a string? Are we doing like strings in the song? And she was like, yeah, I like that. And then I kind of just like took that idea and ran with it. Like, okay, this is going to be like this, like, baroque pop, like thing, you know? But it was never like, we didn't, we didn't write it with that intention. That was never like the thought when we were writing the song was gonna feel like that, you know? - Yeah, you can only get that on the fifth time of editing as well, you know? It's weird, because if you went in writing that, it would stifle probably melody and lyrics. - Yeah, no, 'cause it would be wrote the whole song, which is over, like, literally like a synth loop. It was like, the chords that you hear in the song, which is like that on a loop. The chords never changed. And then later on after we like, wrote the song, I changed the chords to the pre-chorus, you know? - Pre-chorus, yeah. - But, yeah. - Well, that brings us to the next segment of, what would Justin Trinner as Dan Nigeron and the writer is? And he asks, I'm always so inspired when you talk about how when you find artists and writers that you love writing with, you just dig into that instead of getting sucked into the endless L.A. speed dating writing spin cycle. - I feel very, is there more to the question? - Yeah, it's a long question. - Can I answer that part? - Well, first he says, how do you make that choice? That's the actual question. But that, you know, he just said, basically, how do you have the confidence to dive that deep when everyone else is getting the advice of? - I don't understand why people do that, the speed dating thing. I did it. Okay, I guess I'll say, I learned from experience. I was very fortunate when I moved to L.A. I, well, some people would call it fortunate and some people would call it like, I was living a little hermit in a cave. But basically, I moved to L.A. I was living with my friend Justin, and we were writing Justin Raisin, and we were writing songs together, and we wrote, we just would write these ideas for Ariel. We spent literally two years of our lives, and we were fortunate because we, we're doing some commercial work on the side, so we were able to pay our bills. So that part was taking care of, so we weren't stressed out about how are we gonna make ends meet and taking gigs that we didn't really wanna take to that would suck up a lot of our time. 'Cause I know that that happens for a lot of producers where they take on projects because it's the only way that they can, you know, live months and months. But we were very fortunate we landed a couple commercials, and then it afforded us time to kind of spend time working on our craft of songwriting. And we spent a good two years just writing songs for like what I call song starters for like, you know, artists that Ariel is working with. And I realized that because we had such a close, Justin and I were like, had a really good writing relationship, and then Ariel, such a good producer, that it was like a very symbiotic relationship for a while. And then when that kind of like, you know, rant, I don't wanna say it ran its course, but like, you know, I moved into, I moved into a different house, and then like, I was getting better at production, and I want to start doing my own thing. I spent like three years, maybe four years doing that. Like, oh, someone so wants to work with you. This new artist that's like, and I'm like, oh, they're cool, and then I spend two days with them, and then the next two days I spend with another artist that was like, kind of cool and up and coming. And then, oh, this big artist likes your sky for air or song. They wanna work with you. And I spend a week with them. And then it's like, I have all these productions piling up and these like half written songs. And like, you're looking back like the last month or two that you did, you're like, none of these songs are any good. I don't really believe in any of this right now. Like, and you're trying to finish these demos for people, 'cause obviously you want people to, you gotta finish the work that you're doing. And I just did that for so long and ended up with like nothing. I always say nothing, like, that's not a knock on the artist that I work with at the time. And I feel like I did obviously write some good songs in that time. But you end up with what you ended up with once you stop that. - Right, exactly. - And I feel like there's, there needs to be much more of like, I wish that writers and producers had a little bit more passion for the artists and like really found that artists that they believed in and actually spent time with them. 'Cause I think that as a writer and producer, that's how you're gonna win, you know? And that's just how you're gonna end up having songs that matter and songs that mean things to people. It's like when you really spend the time to get to know them and really help them nurture their own creativity so that they can really flourish as an artist, then it's better for everybody. 'Cause then the artist ends up with better songs, you end up with better songs and songs that you believe in. And I think the songs actually end up [BLANK_AUDIO] lasting, like, standing the test of time, you know? And too many people just like, I have producers that I work with that, I don't want us, I'm not mentoring them, I wouldn't say they would ever call me like my, like, I'm their mentor, but definitely, like, people that come to me for advice and like, and I always get like so confused when I'm just like, oh yeah, I did this, I, my schedule, I'd be like, I remember like this, like a writer or producer that'd be like, oh, cool, you were to come over next week, work on the song, and they'd be like, oh, I'm really booked up next week, and I'm like, you're booked up with what, like, what are you booked up with, like, with, well, I have this new artist coming in, I'm like, I mean, you were booked up with a lot of bullshit, you know, like, that's like, none of this important, so you pick a day to cancel one of those sessions and come over, because I'm working on these songs right now, and I need some help, you know, like, and it's like, but it's like, it's like this rat race that everyone's in to try to just like, like, book as many sessions with as many people as like, that's not what this is about, it's about like, finding what, as I remember asking like a writer, like, would you like working with that person? Like, yeah, and I'm like, how many sessions do you have with them? Like, none, and I'm like, well, then book more with that person, like, if you wrote a good song with that person, spend 20 days with that person, you know, like, that's what you need, because that's like, that's what it happened with Chaplin and I, that's what happened with, like, Olivia and I didn't get to driver's license on day one, we got the driver's license on day 25, you know, NNPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NNPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So, thank you for fighting for songwriters, NNPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses splice, but if you don't, you need to start using splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of, but they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with the beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators, every time you use splice as AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So, there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use, where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of their creators. That is splice. That's what happened with Chapel and I. That's what happened with Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one. We got the driver's license on day 25, you know? It just takes such confidence. First of all, a lot of the writing community is based around pitch songs, which gets really complicated in an era where so few pitch songs are getting cut. I mean, I think there's still value in the idea of crafting songs with fellow writers whose goal is to write a great song. Not to say just to, you know, there's versions of the not writing with an artist that can still be committed to great material, but I think what you're saying about creating great artists and even a lot of times great art. I mean, when you mention Madonna as a reference, like so many of her songs are outside songs. In fact, all of them in the beginning are outside songs. Are they? She didn't write like a version. That's Billy Steinberg. Yeah, but what was her first, what was her first hit off the first holiday? No, not holiday. Well, we're, you know, it's cool. Go away. I'm burning up burning up. She wrote burning up. Did she first hit? Wasn't it? I'm not, but I'm going to look it up and we're going to keep up burning up. Tell me another story while I look this out. Tell me tell me a random story that's nothing to do with music. I went and saw Madonna live a few months ago and she played burning up on guitar because the version that's like on, you know, that was recorded is like this really like fun, kind of like senti, but like it sounds like other songs that from that era, but she played it like on a distorted guitar. And I was just, I just never thinking like this song is so fucking cool. And I'm pretty sure it was like her first single and I think she wrote it herself. I mean, that's, I think, I think the idea of, I get what you're saying. No, writing the songs with other songwriters is actually really great. I think and nurturing those relationships and writing great songs with them is also really important. But like when you hear, I'm talking more specifically about the rat race of like, you know, even even songwriters that just like, oh, I mean, this writer today and then I mean this writer and then the next day I have a session with this artist and there's a brand new artist and like, there's like, you just need time to develop songs. You know, they just, yeah, whether it's with another writer or it's with another artist, it's just like every great, I shouldn't say great because I, you know, they're my songs. So I, some people probably think they're terrible. But every song that felt like it was an important song for my career, I think about how long it took to get that song to be feel good. And it was definitely like more than three days, you know? Yeah, it's something. I got a lot of that through that MXM World, you know, they really treat in the loop world all that stuff. They really treat songs like when you do a sound recording, you know, the final sound recording, it better be flawless. And it better be something that, you know, is familiar and unique. It better needs all the elements to make a great recording. And those just don't happen in the day of even if the resemblance of the song can happen day of. Right. That final recording, I could see as a person who has the song on their hard drive for a year and a half, like, why are you at why are you rushing sending, you know, some version other than the final. Right. And you're also, you know, you know, how many, how many finishers are there? So they say the as producers, you know, a lot of writers and producers can get a song up to, you know, to the 90, 95% but not to the 100% that you can do. So if you know what 100% song sounds, like, I mean, I, that point is a little, I mean, I get what you're saying. I get, you're right. But also it is weird. Like, it's kind of a subjective, like, to me, like, I know a lot of producers that like are really like tweak. I mean, I will, like, there's certain songs where I tweak and tweak and tweak and like, lose my mind over it. And there's definitely songs that I've made where I'm just like, I don't know, it feels good. Like, like, I don't know, are the drums right? And I'm like, the people that I think, I don't know, it doesn't feel like it hits as hard as I want or I'm like, all I can say is that when I listen to it, I like it. And that's all I care about. And like, if I like it and it makes me feel good every time I listen to it and I want to let's do it again, I'm not going to like overthink it, you know. But obviously, there's other times when I'm like, I'm over thinking it and I'm like, I can't get this chorus to hit the right way and I'm spend days on it. But other times, I'm just like, I don't know. Like, don't, if it feels good, let's move on. Well, this can answer some of your questions about Madonna, which I do think it's interesting looking further in my wrong apologies. No, no, you're right, you're right on it, but you're it's not on every song, you know, her first two songs, she was the writer. Obviously, she's not, you know, necessarily the producer on them. And the burning ups, B side is physical attraction, which she didn't write. And holiday, she didn't write. And so, it's just interesting that when you're talking about your, you know, a lot of curation and outside songs can be part of an artist career. And that's maybe it's because of your ability to write, but you've also found artists that are also good songwriters, but there are some artists that you've worked with in the past that probably could use an outside song. I'm sure. I'm sure. Yes, yes, I'm sure. You know, and it's not not because of you necessarily. You know, I'm just saying. Why are you sure? I can't write a good song for them. No. Like for sure, there are opportunities to find outside songs and be like, have you tried those ever on an artist? Yeah, I mean, I've, I've taken, I've listened to pitch songs for artists, you know, like, I'm always open for it. It's really hard, like, especially with like, I mean, I feel like I have a very, I think what's important, like, for most producers and songwriters is to find what you're good at. I think it took me a really long time to find like what my role in the music industry was. It's like what, like, and you have, you know, people that like, for instance, like, R.E.L was my mentor and he was like doing a specific thing. And I think for a certain time when I was like younger and coming up, I was like, well, this is what he's doing. So I should do that, you know, and then you learn. So fortunate to have that as your person, you know. Sure, but I, but I realized that was a very different person than him. It took me years to realize like, oh, like, I'm actually just a little bit more on the pop side of things. Like, he's a little bit more indie. And like, my taste just happens to run more pop, and I just want things to feel like a little bit more like in the formula. And it makes me feel better when I listen to it though. And I, it's just what I like, you know, and I think, but I also realized like, what's my skill set was like, R.E.L is like, incredible. He's so production heavy and like, the sounds. And I'm like my skill set is more so like like if I find an artist that has a great lyrical concept of what they want to talk about I've always been a melody person like I was always melody first that was always my thing you know when I wrote songs myself I like wrote melodies and I was like scrambling to find lyrics to work with the melodies that I was writing you know and I just was always like about the feeling like when I would write songs even as a teenager I'd be like oh yeah like these chords feel so good with this melody and I'm like I don't know what it's supposed to be but like the song about but I just know that when I sing this melody with these chords it feels really good you know and then I start to realize like well I think that's actually what I'm naturally gifted at is like the melody in the chords and like the way that things feel against each other and I work better with an artist that has a concept that they're they want to say because I could kind of fill in the if if they're lacking like obviously like Olivia and chapel both right melodies and chords and they write their own songs but there's times where they do come in with just a concept you know and an idea for a song and I could and I love that part of it being like oh that that lyric like that feels like it's like these types of chords or to give them the option of like so is it more like these minor chords you want something major here like does the melody like really lift do you want it to feel like the the melody like goes like this the whole time and like being able to like work with an artist that that has that lyrical identity and I could kind of like do my thing and the things that I'm confident confident in around them works really well and but that's not but other people aren't like me it just so happens that I learned after years of you know trial and error that I was like oh this is this is what I'm good at and I need to work with artists that are that these are their foretays so that I can compliment them you know I think there's another good time to point out how many great producers were in bands and how many great writers were in bands right you know everyone in this room was in a band every like you go to the Justin Tranner was in a band and you know you have but go to the producers like the Jack Antonovs and the and Ricky Reed and and Ryan Tetter and you know go down the list and it's like there's something about the collaboration and knowing that what you do in the room is to compliment other people in the room and it's that you can't have I know obviously some of those people have large egos so but you can you have to be able to listen to other people and see what they need and fill in that void right you know otherwise it's like you know you can always write a song by yourself do you do ever do that anymore like is it ever a part of you that's like you know I'm gonna write a song by myself yeah I do I've written a couple a couple of songs that I've written with artists like are like seeds of songs that I wrote by myself would you ever would you ever release a project again I don't think so I don't I don't know I don't know that's not a closed door I always like what like when I got done with actually with like Olivia and because like I kind of finished both Olivia and Chappell's records at the same time in the like the summer of last year and like I I purposely took like the rest of the year off I didn't want to work on anything it's like kind of just like took time and I I had these ideas where I was like hmm should I just start working on music by myself you know and then I was just like nah I don't want to do that how do you keep thinking about it how do you take time off it's easy it takes time off but how do you like I don't know it takes I took like probably five months off yeah I don't you feel like that like that just do you get nervous of what nervous of what I don't know maybe losing momentum or creativity or like no I don't know I feel like that's the lead like this makes sense if I'm talking to a Scandinavian who takes you know summer's off and stuff like that but I feel like there are very few Americans that aren't full-workaholics it sounds like you're not a workaholic I mean I work pretty hard but I should say that I hadn't taken time off in a long time and having having a baby at home and like right a couple things I was like I actually I you know what I tried over the summer like I like putting timing up a paternity lead kind of thing I took I took two or three months off when yeah yeah it was born but but yeah I was just like I got done with the records and I felt so like creatively spent that like I mean I was doing it wasn't like I was doing nothing I was like you know like I remember like in I took just stop working in July and then like chapels was starting to plan for headlining tour like I would go to like some rehearsals and like help like with some stuff like I'm not like taking like fully just like I'm not big case a you're just not necessarily grinding I wasn't grinding in just just to do the next album yes yes I think I learned after like trying like a session or two like I'd go into the studio with someone and I'd just be like I don't want to be I don't want to be here I don't have anything like if I don't feel like I have anything good to contribute to this session then I'm just like working to work and that's not like fun like you know no it's fun to have an objective even if it is you know a fictitious project that you're not gonna release you know but having something you know having something to write me going into a room where there's no real purpose yeah it's really tough it's really tough to do that you know when you first are coming up in the business and you don't have area as your mentor or and and the industry is like do two sessions a day you know for a lot of those people that's where they learn all the different techniques and they get their 10 thousand hours and they do all those things during that grind right and that you know I I wouldn't say that people from the beginning should be taking months off it everyone takes six months off right now like you kind of have to I don't want to see if to earn that but a little bit like if you really want to learn you know the best way to do it is to to grind through some of those sessions that you're like why am I here and they've purposed that that moment is like to write something that these co-writers wouldn't have had otherwise like find some motivation right in that room to finish a good song or maybe just walk out I don't know maybe just give to advice I've walked out of a couple sessions have you really how well were you did you have an excuse no just like I don't I think I've got a couple of times but like you know what this isn't working out for me I don't want to leave was that awkward or was it just I've made it I've made it awkward a couple times I'm purpose yeah just for fun yeah classic okay so let's go with some more of your co-writers and then this this is a this segment is called what would Steph Jones ask Dan Nigro on and the writer is and she asked what's on your guilty pleasure playlist guilty pleasure but I don't think I have any guilty pleasures because I just love everything I listen to but lately I've been just listening to I've been with I've been like exploring like playing music for my daughter and right now her new obsession which I'm really excited about is just Mariah Carey oh yeah oh yeah just like listen to a lot of Mariah Carey now we just listen basically we just listen to always be my baby and touch my body over and over again yeah just like this endless loop and then she just wants to dance with me in the in the living room to the two songs and it's really fun she then asked do you have any pre-writing studio rituals I don't have I mean not really however I found myself this is something that has happened a couple times where I really I noticed about myself that like I if the session is at a certain time I usually like to be in the room like for an hour but I guess this is a pre-writing it's not a ritual but usually about like an hour before a session I think I need to be in the room and like in front of my computer or playing the piano like not necessarily even trying to come up with an idea for the session but I just need to be ready for the session like mentally like I'm in this space and I'm there and I realized actually recently like because it's it happened once or twice like this year where like I had a session and the session was like say if it was for like 12 the artist like shows up like has to show up late for two hours or something and it really like if if I think my body like is if my body is preparing for 12 o'clock if it gets past a certain time you I like I've like lost the career I then I'm no longer ready creatively flaccidic yeah creatively flaccid yeah what what's a happy accident that ended up in a song a happy accident that happened to the song that's a good question what's a happy accident that happened in a song I'm trying to think of trying to think of like I'm trying to think of a good one for chapel and one for Olivia like a happy accidents I don't know of a happy accident I'm trying to I can't think of a one doesn't like really come okay a happy accident was our song chapel and I song feminine on happened sort of I don't want it's we we hadn't worked together in a while it was just I remember it was like December of 2021 maybe or I think it was December of 2021 maybe just 2022 but basically I mean it must have been 2021 but basically she came over and we hadn't worked together in like a month or two and we only had this one day to make music and we both walked in the room and we're both like really exhausted like it was like we both like she had been doing other things and I like I think I forget what I was doing but like she came over and we both kind of looked at each other and like after like an hour of like talking or something it was like we both were like I don't know if we want to write a song today you know and then I was like okay I was like this is we can't waste this day like this day needs to happen like we're we only have this the last day of the year that we're working together like we have to write something and I was like what if we just write a song with one word I was like you know like I forget there's like a song that my wife always plays like there's like I forget what it's like a popular 80s song where it's just like one lyric like one line over and over again like the whole song I was like let's just come up with like a dance song with one word or like one phrase you know and and she was like yeah cool like let's do it and I just like put in like a drug I kick snare and then I started like playing the baseline of the of the chorus like on my like my ms 20 like we found a baseline that we liked and I just started looping that looping the the baseline and I and then basically like feminine almond on like we just were like let's come up with something like ridiculous like just one word that we could just sing over and over again and then and that song that's kind of how feminine almond on happen and and so the funny thing was that we were like and I was so like this is our parameters like we need to just write a song with one word and then we came up with the word and it was like I think I like said like phenomenal I was like phenomenal like really like she like feminine like we came up with the word with the word and then we like we like thinking about it and then and then I was like ah fuck I was like but what would make this song really cool is if it was like a fake out and we actually wrote a song and then it went into this part and so like that's that song came out as sort of an accident you know great what's your favorite candle in your studio a peyote poem by by reto okay and then what's your favorite song that you've ever written on July 2nd 2024 that was it's called to be yours cool hopefully that one comes out okay next segment is and this will lead into a few more things here but what would Amy Allen ask Dan Nigeron and the writer is you have a lot of friends apparently uh Danny boy uh one of your most impressive qualities amongst others is your instinct on the right projects to develop which we've sort of talked about and you were saying you know but uh what about an artist makes makes them stand out to you and the reason why I didn't mind repeating that question is because you were like well you know I just have a feeling well I meet a lot of artists too and I have and I have met people where I'm like I have this feeling and they didn't become chapel rounds so what you know um have your feeling ever been wrong I you know what I'm gonna be I'm gonna say the most ego-tistical thing I've ever said my feeling is never wrong yeah I've never been wrong about an artist that's gonna make it or not make it that's crazy yeah uh that makes you very valuable I met I will say I don't know if she remembers this but I met Duolipa in 2014 before she was even signed maybe it was even 2002 it was really early on I went to the UK for a writing trip and and she was signed she was with tap at the time and Gab's was working at tap and they were like hey we have this artist and I before I went and I was a no name writer I had no you know I think maybe the sky for air songs were my only credits at the time and and they were like we have this artist Duolipa we want and I was like well can you send me music and they were like no no they were like no we are not sending you music we promise you that you like her that she's she's really talented and I was like and I like I was like I never work with an artist if I need to hear the music to see if I like it and and and they were like please like we promised like she's she's incredible and so I went to the UK and I met her and I worked and I did a day with her and the session was like a like the session just went wrong like there was like there was another writer in the room and like they had an interest a concept that was like a little bit like I remember was like trying to follow along and we just we ended up like writing a bad song but all I can all I can say was I walked in the room and I was like after two hours of being in the room I was like wow this girl is a fucking superstar I was like this girl is a superstar and I emailed Gab's after the session in 2014 I said we wrote a terrible song but this girl is a superstar like congratulations yeah I remember working with her where it was like yeah I wrote I wrote I have them they're not great songs with her and but she was what was really exciting was like oh cool there's an alto I remember when she sang I was like oh raspy alto it's so exciting because it was just like it it's just so rare it's so rare to have a pop star it was like that and but I I think the whole dance chopper's an alto too yeah there you go well I guess we'll then have to work together um so and then Amy asked uh what do I have to do to get a polaroid on your wall she has a polaroid on my wall oh she says what do I have to do to get on your polaroid wall so maybe I messed up the order no there's a lot of people that forget that they have a polaroid I've I just worked with somebody recently too that they were like oh I don't have a polaroid I was like yeah you do like yeah they don't I have a signature book uh that every you know everyone's signed I'm pretty sure and then there are a couple people have signed it twice because they were convinced that they didn't have it to the I'm gonna also I would like to say that like one of them would always show up really high so it's like kind of mean uh um when uh you know Amy obviously worked on uh some of the newer Olivia stuff um last time we met like uh Gus hadn't even come out yet right um vampire is so good like it's such a good song um in this era where people are trying to do two-minute 30-second songs what makes you does that make you want to do you know bohemian rap city does that make you does it make you want to yes I mean make you want to do the opposite you know it's funny you know what's funny because you know I I think it's all bullshit like these this whole like obviously like I get why like a two-minute song works it and it makes sense and it does work like it works for the Beatles it works but like queen outstreams the Beatles like if you look at queen's this biography their hits have twice as many maybe three times as many streams as Beatles songs too I mean that's why they're cataloging your soul for a billion dollars to sound like people like epic music people love it you know and this there and especially if people are afraid like if you're saying that songwriters are afraid to write like things because because they have to fit into a mold of two minutes like if there's a rarity for other things that only makes it more exciting totally I think what the the issue is when you just you just nailed it which is that the streamed version of those songs are amazing and if you're still trying to and um what helps the vampire I I wonder if that was her first single if that was where driver's license was would it get the same kind of love or did she earn the right to release vampire it's a great song but like do you bohemian rap city didn't come out first no you know so you are was it their first big single I don't know queen yeah was it their first what was their first I mean I just know the movie you know so I'm not really sure exactly but it wasn't first okay you know um and they didn't want them to release it it was too long and all this like radio itself is is a your your music when you're on radio is a commercial for the commercials you're trying to keep people there long enough to listen to the commercials so they're trying to keep people's attention by moving through songs they're not trying to play november rain they're not trying to play november rain on MTV every every day at three o'clock when I got on school they played november rain and they played like you know all these great songs that are are 7 8 9 minutes long you know the you just it's so rare and vampire isn't that but it is an epic journey from from to finish was there anybody that was like you know we should do a radio cut nobody said it should be a radio cut but my one of my I've told the story I think before which is um but when we made the song it was like like all this like you know we've been talking about so far like it was a process like Olivia brought in the idea for the song and it was like basically it was the the chorus was pretty similar there's some different lyrics but melodically it was it was pretty similar and like the the tag was pretty much the same um I think we tweaked like a couple of words of the tag and stuff but we rewrote the verses and then we lay down a scratch of that and then later on wrote a second verse and then a second chorus and then the bridge happened like later like after we had produced out like like two different versions of the song and decided that it was going to be like an uptempo song because it my first original production was actually when the second verse hit in the drums hit and it was like more of like a like a laid back like it was like it was like it was like more of like a just a chill beat you know and because I because when we wrote it to me it was like it was a balance you know and Olivia actually was like no I don't want to sound like that like it needs like it starts to drive and I'm like oh okay cool so um Anyway, so we made that and then we wrote the bridge like a month later and then we recorded the bridge and then it was like taking me figure like figure out ways to make the transition. So I started putting those big hits in there and it was like which is like all piece mail together at this point of just like figuring out like okay and we're building this like this journey, right? And so we were excited I was like I was like starting to get excited about it and this was the, I remember it was like the end of January, February, 2020, three, I guess it was last, yeah January, February and the label and you know everyone like on her team was like getting like you know like where's music and like we're not sending many demos out. We're not sending stuff and I hate what we talked about for like sending out a demo. So we invited some people to the studio and I was like we're not going to send you demos because we don't want anybody to get attached to any of this music. But if you guys want to come in one day and listen, you can and we'll play you some of the ideas that we're working on. So you know that we're working, we're not just fucking around you know. And so and we were really excited about vampires. I think that might have even been the first song out of like the batch of new songs that we were working on that we played them and I remember we played it for her managers who I love they're amazing and I just remember playing it and we get done and they just like looked up and they were like, it sounds like three songs in one and we were like yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And they were like okay but like it sounds like three songs in one and we're like yeah like yeah we're on the stage but we all agree. But they were very like okay well and then I remember like this like I remember like Olivia was like in the corner just like like no like like and I was like no no it's good I just it's making me realize I just need to work on the transitions like it's not I felt very confident like this is going to be good I just haven't nailed the the the the way it flowed together yet you know. It's like that three songs sweet from from a okay computer three songs sweet or like what November rain is or what you know all these great it was so exciting to hear that because again it's this time where I think people are so scared of keeping their jobs as songwriters right that they're they're just trying to get songs out and they're they're trying to placate the label and do the things and not create art. So it was really exciting to hear an artist feel confident that no this is my first single and I mean the song's great but it also it's like it's a risk yeah but I think the people I mean I guess maybe it's I feel like maybe like it's stupid for me to say it but I just I don't I just think people need to actually just take more risks yeah I think people want I mean like listen people want like simple pop songs all the time I love simple pop songs but I think there's like there's like a you know a journey that we all go on as listeners of what we want to listen to and sometimes we want really happy music what sometimes we want sad sometimes I want you know like to listen to always be my baby with my daughter like a hundred times in a row and sometimes I want to listen to like a queen song and like digested in a different way alone or something you know like I think that listeners just want lots of different music they do want two-minute pop songs but they also want five-minute songs. Is it is is it easy? Is like like writing for is for right now it feels like you know you have the mightest touch right now you know is the is it easy for you? No no none of making music is easy and I always find that to be weird that that people think that music should be easy like I remember it's hard as shit like I remember it's so hard to write something good it's so easy to write music it's really hard to write something good I had I had a revelation with with an old there a therapist of mine that actually passed away like back in 2016 I remember I was going through like a right before I actually feel like I like came into my stride and I would say like I think I hit like a lot of clarity around 2017-18 and right before then I was going through going to a therapist and like figuring out some stuff in my life and I was really unhappy of my place in the music industry and I felt like I've been out here for like six years at the time and I like really like didn't have much to show for it and I remember I forget the exact words that were used but something we're like I was like well you know just working like yeah we got a good song but it really wasn't fun like I didn't have any fun working with them and and my therapist was like fun like it's your job you know I was like yeah he's like so what makes your job why why does your job have to be fun and I was like I guess it doesn't it's like is that a prerequisite for a good song is it has to be fun to make and I was like no it's like so is that like your your idea of a session if like if it's fun then it was good you know and I really like hit me I was like right like actually making songs like sometimes writing good songs suck like it's actually not fun enough I always say I like having written a song I don't I always say I like having written a song I never really like no one likes writing and if you there's the party vibe and like they'll get me wrong you know you end up writing sometimes at writing cans for this 10 people in a room and you you're having a blast and you get your 10% but it's so much fun and that song turned out to sound like a party like that's fine but if you're gonna write that song that if you're gonna have four different keys for good luck babe and all those things like some of that it's hard and it's annoying and it sucks to do but you like having written it yeah you're like having written at the end of it all yeah you have the that's the thing you're proud of it later on like that's that's more the feeling is like you want to feel good about it later you don't have to feel good about why you're doing it yeah are you working on anything right now or are you in a place where you know I mean I guess I know you're working on chapel right now sure is that then taking up all your time or it's taking I mean I like it to take up my time because I believe in it and I want I don't want to be distracted by other things like I'm I'm I'm I help with a few other things here and there you know but right now my main focus is trying to get like new music for that in a good place are you the other artists you work with um do you I guess this is interesting you know someone like Conan had worked with other people after you yeah um it's similarly you've had a chapel who worked with other producers and then worked with you after them right you know do you feel as uh you know as for me is a almost uh uh I feel like an independent contractor within the business where I'm always working on different projects and different things or a few that I get to do full albums with do you feel um do you feel any which way when an artist is like I just want to try something different or do you feel any which way when someone says I need you to get me out of this situation I mean I always just want what's best for the artists I really do like there are times when I feel like I can give the artist what exactly what they're looking for and there's other times when I feel like I can't and even like on Chapel's record there's like a couple of songs where I had some co-production on it because I was like she wants this to feel a certain way and like I'm probably not the best person to like get this style of production so I'm gonna bring somebody else in to help me because it's gonna make this process better you know and there's other times where I'm like I want to do it all myself because I actually know exactly what it's supposed to be and I've tried to bring in other people and they messed it up and I'm like then I have to fix the mistakes and I'm just like I sometimes like to keep it in slow just for the fact of like I just know I'll get it done it might take a while you know but I know exactly what the outcome should be so I'll just leave it that way and other times I'm like no like I need help you know like let give me some help here you know but I guess no I I feel like I feel like whatever works best for the artist if an artist feels like they want to do a certain thing you know they should go do that thing you know and if they feel like they need my help and I'm the right person for the job then it's usually pretty aligned that that's the case you know all right let's go to this next segment of five for five all this five things tell me what comes off the top of your head great all right okay um I asked this last time I'm gonna ask it again as tall as lines uh how am I supposed to how am I supposed to I don't know like why does it mean like the perspective difference of four years and about ten more hits later what do you do you think anything different about the band that kind of established you I don't know what I actually don't remember when I answered the first time but to I love his talls lines I'm super proud of what we did I think it's was the most formative thing for me to become a producer was to work on the interpersonal dynamics of having lots of people in the rooms all with different types of egos and different um what you'm gonna call it like wanting to get different things out of songs that it really informed how I work with an artist and I don't think that if I ever came from a band I wouldn't ever be able to do what I do you know I just say that simply put it I wouldn't be able to be a the producer that I am without that experience you know um similar sour so again sour sour yeah I mean what a trip what a what a wild ride that's uh you know I I still I'll live you and I still look back on it and go like what like what a crazy experience that was what a beautiful experience and and uh I'm trying to think of like I mean there's so many feelings about sour but it's it's it's amazing that that so many people were able to connect with those songs and it's And it feels like it still hasn't gone away. Like people are still listening to the record just as much as they were two years ago. - And guts, guts, I love guts so much. It was, I think you can, you can, Olivia would attest to it. It was one of the hardest things to make, you know? The follow-up to-- - It's way harder. - Making a second record is so hard. Especially I've kind of talked to, I actually talked about this with so many people recently. And not only just like chapel, but other artists like working on their second, talking about second records and the pressure of making a second record. And it's like, it's basically like, you look at your first record as this mountain, you know? That like you built and it's built with like songs, production, you know, positive press reviews, Grammys, whatever you want to, whatever is on this mountain that you've like, that has a mast over the course of one, two, three, four years that you're looking at. And then you start on album two and you have nothing. You're literally looking at like a shovel and some dirt. And you're like, and on day one you like, you move some dirt over to the mound and you still, you look at the other mountain and you're like, well, that still doesn't look like that, you know? And then you add a couple more scoops of dirt. And every day you kind of just like, you're just trying to build a new mountain, you know? But you're still, you're with those first few, you know, shovels in hand with nothing, nothing to show for it. And it makes it really daunting. And it's, but it's a crazy process. And it's, it's kind of awesome. - Amusement records. - Amusement records, I don't know, it's my baby. (laughing) - Well, it's interesting to me to say that's your baby. When you've got a lot of things that are, you know, you've put a lot of effort and a lot of things, but that's a little different than writing a song. - Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, I think the, I think the, the experience with chapel about like, not so much the experience of making the record so much or like, you know, the rise and fall, but simply just like, I learned from myself. I learned, what I learned about myself in getting involved in this project was how much I like the anoring part of it and how much I like being involved in more than just writing a song and helping artists navigate all the bullshit of the music industry is like, you do it enough times and meet enough like, you know, strange characters along the way that like, you feel like you could be helpful to someone else. And so, I'd like to build it more, you know? - I haven't, I haven't like signed anything new yet and I'm, you know, I'm looking at things, but I haven't, you know, I haven't figured out the next step in it, but it's like, it's on the, it's in the forefront of my mind. - Well, you're probably about to get a thousand DMs at this time today. - You're, your daughter, so she is, I don't know. I mean, she's the most incredible little, I call it, we call it the bean, she's the bean. - You know, I have a, you know, almost three year olds, he'll be three by the time this comes out and I, you know, a five-month-old daughter and we do the same thing. We just went through a Mariah and like, I just feel so important to play, I play a lot of like great female artists, you know, that's a big thing, making sure we listen to it. By the way, it's also important for my son to listen to that too and vice versa, so it's, you know, but I just think that there are a lot of great vocalists and for some reason I just feel like that's, I'm already trying to get her to hear strong smart women. - Sure. - And, you know, going through the Mariah thing is cool, but I think it's important that you know that there are dads out there who are now playing Olivia and are now playing Chappell, the way that, you know, playing a Lannis or playing whatever was, you know, Mariah or whatever we want to play from other things. Like, you are creating, when I, I was kind of proud of saying you're a conductor of the zeitgeist, but it's kind of like, it's amazing that what you're doing is really establishing a conversation with those two million streams a day on one song from one artist. I mean, you know, it's really remarkable and it's because you are taking the time to make sure that that transition is important. - Sure. - And you're making sure that that lyric is actually not Jane, but something more universal or something that is more communicative, you know, you're putting in the effort on the songwriting and that's where it starts. So that way, all the image stuff and all the other things can then support the importance of fucking transitions in the song. And everyone so wants to get through that and they all want to feel success or fame or whatever they're aiming for in music, but they don't realize that that's not really a thing until you care about the transition. - Sure. - Yes. - So, you know, look, this is your second interview on this day. I'm sure you'll have like 90, one where we're really old and more great, but I just appreciate you doing this, but I appreciate your work and your work ethic and the artist you're putting out really matter for all of us with daughters. - Thank you. I appreciate that very much so. - Yeah. - There you go, man. - All right.