How Creators Took Over Hollywood

Ten years ago, it felt like influencers were the laughing stock of the entertainment industry. Yet, in 2025, we have creators launching full-blown TV shows, getting Grammy-nominated as best-new artists, hosting the Met Gala, going on stand-up comedy world tours. Heck, even this past week, the Golden Globes themselves had a best podcasting category for the first time ever. The entertainment industry is shifting, and people are starting to notice. Shows like Caller Daddy or Joe Rogan have nearly 20 times the average viewership of primetime CNN, so they've attracted full-blown presidential candidates. Traditional media is changing. People are hungry for authenticity and people they can actually connect to. The days of having to fight for some approval of a random studio executive are gone, and the gatekeepers have the least amount of power they have ever had. We're in a world where anyone with an idea can build their own show. But how do they actually do it? What did these creators do to make it to Hollywood, so differently from everyone else to get there? Well, that is exactly the question we set out to solve here today. And who better to ask than an expert in the space? Jordan Newman had in-content partnerships at Spotify who oversees all of the amazing Spotify exclusive shows and have just spent years in the space, Jordan. I'm so excited to have you. Welcome to Nikki and I. Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here. First, I would love to, like, I'm very interested in your take about this, because I think also this year has been probably one of the most explosive years of creators getting through. And I think what's fascinating is there more ways to do it than ever, which is something I'm really interested to talk to you about. But before that, like, what really, like, what does your team do at Spotify? Like, when is something coming to your mind? Yeah, sure. So my team really looks after our relationship with all of the creators and publishers and networks that are distributing podcasts and video content on Spotify. So really working hand in hand with a whole wide range of partners to help them find success on Spotify, whatever that might mean to them, whether it's growing their audience, monetizing their content, using our tools and features, really finding ways to, yeah, invest in our ecosystem on Spotify. So I have a team that works with creators of all shapes and sizes to really help them find success. That's awesome. And I think specifically that is something I'll talk about a lot. Is this idea of, like, IP development in the hands of the creative, being the first time ever that has ever really happened? You know, like, when you think about, like, no actor owns the movie that they're at. No, a lot of artists don't own their masters or things like that. And through, like, episodic content on the internet is the first time we're seeing creative control in the hands of the people in the thing. Yeah, honestly, for the first time ever. So one is, like, very cool that your team is entirely like-- Yeah, listen around. It's a super exciting time to be a creator. I think you can get a lot of momentum and traction and own your audience in a way that previously has been very challenging for a creative folks. So there's also challenges it presents. I think, you know, being a creator and having to, you know, be responsible for growing your audience and monetizing your audience and not having sort of the same support structure can certainly pose a challenge. But definitely, one of the upsides is being able to really own the relationship you have with creators, for sure. Yeah. And I think what's interesting, too, is like, prior to this year, we have seen people break through to entertainment. Just in a very different way. Like, the great examples to me were, like, a Quinta Brunson in an Issa Ray, right? Where people who, like, started on early YouTube in 2010s, when YouTube was still a new platform, then had to, like, completely stop creating content to, like, write an entire screenplay, pitch it to seven studios, and then, you know, like, eventually, an ABC picks up a show for, like, a Quinta. And that has kind of completely flipped when you think about this sort of, like, new wave of talent, right? Like, people, I think, of our, like, Benny drama and Hannah Berner. I'm a Chamberlain for a great example. Yeah. Something we're seeing with the entire business model of entertainment has changed. Like, before you used to have to have an idea, pitch the idea, it gets approved, and then they're like, we're going to spend money to, like, market it in other audiences. Whereas now, like, you build the audience yourself first. Yeah. And then, you're like, okay, this is what people like about me. How can I expand this thing? Yep. Is that the future of podcasting, you know what I mean? Or just, like, creation as a whole? Like, is it everyone starting their own thing in this small scale? Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't look at it as, like, a zero-sum game. Like, I think there's always going to be shows, you know, on different networks or streaming services that are fronted by, like, really creative people who rise to the top, and I think that's fantastic. But that said, I do think what's really unique about podcasts and this format in general is that you can really find a way to break through and build an audience, even if you're not the most famous person in the room. And what's cool about is you look at the top podcasts. Definitely some of them are fronted by big celebrities. But most of them aren't. Most of them are people who, before doing the podcast, either weren't famous at all or were, like, maybe in the industry, but not, like, at the very top of the industry. But they found a way to either create really unique content or to resonate with their audience in a way that is really incredible. And I think one of the common ingredients for success for podcasts is that the audience has this parasocial relationship with the host, right? And I think that's something very unique to the podcast format versus, like, traditional media. And so if you're a podcast host, you have a relationship with your audience. So I think it's actually different from the relationship you would have if you were an actor in a TV show or even like a director or whatever. So I think that's another piece of it. It's both the ability to create that audience and create that content and get in front of people. But I think the underlying relationship you're forming with the audience is also quite distinct. And I think it boils down to companionship. Like, that is really the most interesting thing to me about podcasting is it is the only medium people can assume while they're doing something else. Like, it is so common. I'll get an absolute comment on this show. Totally. I listen while I'm at the gym. I'm on my car ride home from work. I'm eating a meal while doing that. And I think that that actually deepens the connection. Like, it is the closest thing. One, I think in terms of just like raw authenticity, I guess, is like the closest thing you can get to like hanging out with somebody actually is seeing the way that they are in an hour long dialogue of like, and two, I think was one of the reasons like the medium blew up so much. Like, I was very fascinating to me that like, podcasting became the most popular and it had ever been when short form video was also the most popular and it had ever been. I think the truth is like podcast, it's an extremely long form medium. Yeah. You know, we've got top shows that are three, four hours long. And people are listening or watching all of that. Oh my god, yeah. And I think it's because to your point like they're doing it while they're also doing other things. But I also think like, again, like part of the reason why people feel such a connection to these podcast hosts is because they're spending so much time with them each week. And they're, you know, they're bringing them into their households. I think when we look at top shows that are really successful, what we find is that people are often doing sort of the same habits every week when they're listening. So everyone will, for example, like listen to the same show when they fold their laundry on Wednesdays or like the same show when they commute home on a Thursday. And so you're tying your media consumption, your podcast consumption to something you're doing in your everyday life over and over and over again. And I think that is sort of why podcasts are so powerful because people bring them into their everyday lives. Yeah. And it's also like, I think this idea of like ritual is very important in a person's life. You know, like whether directly, like known and stated, like, I will fold my laundry on Wednesday while I listen to this thing or just like, this is what I can see on my drive home from work when I am thinking. Totally. And it's like, have you ever like gone to do the thing whether it's fold the laundry or drive home from work and you check your podcast and that episode isn't there for some reason? It's like the worst. What am I going to do? What is that? It's like, what happened? Totally. You know, it's like the worst. And I think that's because you feel like, you know, you're being stood up kind of, right? So I think like, yeah, it speaks to how ingrained this content is in people's lives. Totally. And that was something that like, I really was shocked. Like when I started the show, like, and even to this day, like, it's so fascinating. Like, I can post the exact same episode on YouTube or Spotify. And on Spotify, the average watch time is three times as long. Yeah. As the exact same piece of content on YouTube. Yeah. You know, I think a couple of reasons for that I might call out. So one, you know, when you're watching a podcast or even listening to a podcast on Spotify, you're not being confronted with like recommendations for 10 other shows. Yeah. We really try to get you to focus on the content that you're consuming. I think also people who come to Spotify really value the time there and feel like it's time well spent. Totally. And a lot of the content they're listening to is about enriching their lives. And I think that leads to people consuming a lot of that content. And yeah, I mean, I think one of the superpowers of Spotify is building engagement and really building a loyal audience. And that loyal audience tends to really want to get all of the content that their favorite creators are creating. Yeah. And that's also like when I think about like the business of podcast. And why I think it is going to replace a lot of traditional media, which I'll talk about, is like Exactly that you're talking about this depth, you know like I think it's so there's this like very weird thing with You know marketing where it's so quantitatively driven and you know people who want x amount of use for why amount of ad spend? Yeah, yet There's no discussion of like depth of connection. Yeah totally. I mean, I think one of the things that we've seen is a real pivot to video for a lot of creators In the past year or so more than a year, I should say and I think one of the reasons for that is because The audience really wants to connect with these creators in another dimension and on the creator side They find that once they add that video component to their shows they see all the numbers move in the right direction but in particular Retention and watch time always you know jump up and that's because you're creating something that feels more engaging Yeah, and I think it's like even encodes into memory deeper the more Like experiences to your senses there are you see that you know, yeah, and again, like talking about that Per-social element almost, you know, yeah, like even it's I think even like sometimes beautifully refreshing to see someone who's like They're filming in their bed and they haven't showered that you know what I mean and you're like very authentic Yeah, like that's how I'm watching you know what I mean And like you doesn't mean you're looking at them a hundred percent of the time. It's fine. Yeah Whatever three hour episode, but I feel like there's so many podcasts moments where it's like you want to see what's happening You want to see the expression or total whatever it might be totally and it's that is also like a very Stark thing like never in a million years when a news host go on the air. Yeah, you know what I mean like not like that is this thing That I think is why people have gravitated towards it as a medium like this sort of even mess sometimes is a telling of like It I'm like that too, you know what I mean? Yeah, which I think is really cool, but in general you're saying that's right right maybe right now You don't know yeah, that's true But with this to like another thing I'd love to pick your brain about is for the first time in history We're seeing Traditional talent go the opposite direction where now any polar is wanting to start a podcast bow and yang Jason and Travis Kelsey like that used to be Creators creators couldn't get access to Hollywood and that was the only thing you can do and now this idea of like Wait, I'm an actor and I've never owned anything I've ever made yeah is and I want to have my own show now like How has that experience been on Spotify? So yeah, I think to your point super compelling for traditional talent to see this Like okay, cool. I have the ability to talk to my audience and reach them and then own that IP That's obviously really attractive what I think also though needs to be mentioned is Creating a podcast is an enormous amount of work. Yeah, as you well know. Yeah and for a lot of these celebrities There's other ways they can make money, you know easier ways for them to make money And so I think like obviously there have been a lot of examples of big celebrities who've tried podcasting and decided that it sort of wasn't for them And they're also examples of folks who've done it really successfully and I think the ones who've done it successfully are the ones who really Understand the amount of work required and are really doing it for the right reasons which is trying to create content that really engages their audience and in a way that no other sort of format can So it's been wonderful to see. I think um again, it's you know The content that still does the best is the content that engages people and just because you're a big celebrity That doesn't necessarily mean that you can pull back the curtain and be super well engaging Um, but I think if you look at the folks who've been successful at your point, you know Amy Polar or the best the Kelsey brothers like there's something really Um compelling about both of them. They're both super raw and unfiltered Um, and you're really sort of getting the real real and both of them are doing an enormous amount of work for their content. They're releasing Longform content every single week with a fair amount of prep on video. That is like a ton of work So yeah, I give them a ton of kudos for that. Yeah How did it feel when Amy won the Golden Globe? I mean, it was crazy Like I think just the fact that the Golden Globes recognized podcast as a format is so exciting You know so many of the people who we work with have been doing this for years and years and um, and I think like Podcasting has such an undeniable cultural impact But still the idea that an award show of the Golden Globes recognized that and celebrated that I felt like was a really big Watershed moment for the industry for you know people have been doing this for a long time, you know Spotify's been in the game for a while there are other folks who've been in even longer than that So it was super cool to see and I think it's also really beautiful that it's like Highlighting the importance of like production quality is like there's like you can't get to a show like that without Doing some of the amount of work that is required of TV shows like some of these people have producers and camera Clements and studio spaces. Totally. There's you know, it's like it's one of those things where there's a lot of ways to create a podcast You can definitely have a really high glossy set and make it look super professional and there's a lot of value to that Also, you can do it in a way that feels more raw and filtered and there's also value to that There's a lot of work any which way you cut it. Yeah, it's not like one is you know, significantly harder, but Yeah, it's a huge amount of work. I think like the I creating weekly content is really challenging And that is you know that I think the amount of work required there cannot be like undercounted Yeah, and that's I think what is cool about it a show like the Golden Globes doing it But I actually like have really I've only been doing the show for like a year But I have like really fallen in love with this idea of like you said like doing something weekly. Yeah, it's like One it's like very interesting to like it's like very therapeutic and I just feel like you have to like talk totally and fill a void of space Yeah, in hour each week And then also like I think it's very interesting to look at things that are We're significant to you a year ago and how much you were Talking about something and I don't think about this at all. Yeah, it's like a whole track record of what you've been thinking about Video travel. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, I think Yeah, you know the other thing about podcasting that I like is this is long form too and there's some things that you're gonna say At like 45 minutes or two hours that you wouldn't say in the first like five or ten minutes totally so Yeah, I feel like a video journal sort of the right way to put it to it definitely feels like you're revealing something in a fun way Yeah, and that's why I think it feels very very personal. Yeah Something I'm really like I've talked about a lot on this show. I think I like made it in my one of my predictions for this year was like how the business of The creator economy is changing Like I something I like a static reference is like TV ad spend has declined 28% in 10 years 10% of that was just in the last four years. Yeah, yet it is still 58 billion dollars a year so When people talk about like like this is a static way to use when people are like the creator economy bubble I'm like I don't even think it's like yeah started. Yeah, right? Like these like Things like TV have had declining viewership for a decade Then radio is another great example. It is 30 28 billion dollars a year of at spend. Yeah print media 32 billion dollars a year of at spend like that inevitably. I think Has to go to something like this right like eating episodic content That is there's a guaranteed host that's going to do some sort of ad read or something and like yeah I also think it's way more targeted Yeah, I I think there's a lot going for podcasts when it comes to advertising. Yeah obviously Like the idea of the host red ad is really compelling for brands because you have like someone advocating for your product In a way that feels really authentic I also think that yeah There's like a lot of ways to integrate advertising in a way that feels authentic whether it's like product placement or Or other ways to make it feel really positive versus interruptive um I think the challenge with the podcast industry has just been that historically the way that Advertising has been sold is not in line with sort of how most folks are buying like modern digital media Yeah, so there's been a big effort across the industry for the past Number of years to really modernize podcast advertising um to try to figure out how we align on standards um How we have the same metrics across different platforms So I I do think that there's a ton of upside here But I also want to acknowledge there's still a lot of work to do on the advertising side and um Even when we look at our roadmap on the advertising side There's a lot that we're building that we're really excited about for this coming year But a lot of it is designed to really try to unlock budgets from advertisers who want to spend on spotify and spend in this category In the same way that they've spent in other categories too. Yeah, that I'm that was a really interesting point and I'm glad that you made it but like Specifically what sort of Changes do you feel like like what is the roadblock from an advertiser perspective from spending more? Yeah, or what are they like you're talking about different So metrics and things yeah, well, so I'll give you a couple just examples. I think one is um Yeah, a lot of these advertisers want to spend in video versus just simply an audio right um that's just you know Some advertisers prefer side sound and motion. Yep, um, and so the idea now that Um podcast have a video component. I think actually unlocks a bunch of advertisers that previously maybe look to this is more of like an experimental but it, tell you the thing. But that also means that, you know, they want to serve video creative. They want video ads. A lot of podcast ads are audio only. And so how do the platforms allow for video advertising in a way that feels consistent with how these brands are buying on other platforms? There's a fair amount of work required there. You know, when it comes to metrics, each, you know, one of the great things about podcast is you can get your podcast wherever you get your podcast. Yeah. But one of the challenge is that different platforms will measure differently. You know, some platforms really focus on downloads as the metric of record, other platforms like Spotify really focus on streams. And so what has to happen in the background is for creators or publishers or networks to reconcile a bunch of different metrics into something that they can present to an advertiser. And so I think that creates some friction for these brands are just kind of looking to spend and get what they want to get. So, you know, I definitely think things are moving in the right direction. I'm with you. I think so. We're seeing more advertisers come into the space spending bigger budgets and more integrated advertising. And at the same time, also, we're seeing, you know, for on the programmatic side for the really like data informed brands, more and more options to buy programmatically in the same way that they're buying from all the other sort of digital media platforms. So, I think that's all moving in the right direction. But I think that there's been a lot of work to try and get us in this place where we're a really good alternative to budgets that were otherwise spent in other places. Right. And like a very interesting thing about podcasts advertising to me has been it's like like the way I see it right now is it's a much smaller number of brands, but the brands that spend on podcasting really like they are all in on it. You know what I mean? And you'll see them across all the shows that you. Yeah. And I think what's so interesting to me is I'm like, they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's working. I feel like, you know, again, the host red ad is such a powerful ad format. Yeah. And I think like, yeah, for like a lot of these like direct consumer brands and and other brands that are really looking to get in front of folks. Yeah, being able to associate your brand with a creator that people have this enormous amount of trust with is such a cool opportunity. And so valuable. And so I think when it comes to podcast advertising, some of the exciting things we're seeing are like really integrated advertising product placement branded segments ways to make advertising feel like it's part of the content versus interruptive. Still clearly labeled as an ad, but done so in a way that I think really gives gives viewers more content. Yeah. And doesn't disrupt the yeah, the experience. Yeah. Something interesting to that I have found really fascinating is brands being willing to start their own podcast, which I think is like a great example to me as an HBO. Like for a lot of their big IP. Yeah. They have like a after the episode, this is a podcast we're going to talk with this actor from the show. Yeah. I think one of the reasons why that works is because I think podcasting is a format that really appeals to super fans. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think when we sort of look at loyal fans versus casual fans, loyal fans consume like 20 times more of an episode than casual fans and they're far more likely to come back week after week. So for a lot of these media companies that are launching podcasts, it's really a way to engage the most loyal fans who are the ones that are coming back week after week, bingeing, you know, blogging, whatever it might be about it. So it's definitely a smart strategy. I love it. I think it's that is going to be a thing that completely close. I think film is like the perfect thing. Yeah. For like for that sort of format to experiment in because I remember two like they would, they were so intentional about like the actor they chose to do that episode was someone who had a really impressive monologue. Yeah. And they're sitting down and talking about the amount of takes that took to filming and stuff like that. And that I think also like what you said about super fans is why the it is going to grow as a business and like an advertising format I think to me, like what's so interesting about it is like you're not like like you don't just casually like the white Lotus. So if you're watching characters, you're like top for 30. Yeah. You are obsessed. Yeah. And super valuable to HBO right? Yeah. So it makes sense that they want to nurture that audience and give them this shoulder content that they can really engage with. Totally. And it's like long term strategy like that is an IP you get to build an own over time, right? Like you can run ads or whatever for the new season, but then like those are disposable when the seasons over they're useless. Yeah. But if you built this super fan podcast of people who are going to tune in because they love the series. Yeah. So much. Then that becomes this thing you get to own and build in totally time. Yeah. And I think that is a really really you know impressive thing. And I think some some of the more legacy media brands have like really figured out like totally New York Times. Great example of like they are so all in on podcasts. Totally. Well, they don't have the podcast and politics like they have found ways to take the material that they're good at and adapting it into this format. Yeah. And look, it's not easy. And so there's definitely some media companies that have done it better than others. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the commonality I think again is having these hosts or voices that people can really build a relationship with. And sometimes that's a challenge for a company, particularly like a more traditional company that's always like tried to keep a separation between the quote unquote creator and the audience in some way. But I think they used to be that as a liability with an actual it's an asset. Yeah, I think now it is. And look, I think also for a lot of like, you know, if you're like a journalist at a traditional news organization, you know, do you want to be in front of a camera every week talking about your content and the way that like is providing like opinions and and off the cuff. I don't think all of them would say yes. But again, I think like that is a valuable asset for a media company to create. And again, it it means having a little bit of a different relationship with your audience. Then previously existed. It means creating a type of content that is new and unique. And so I think yeah, there's brands that have really leaned into that and companies that have leaned in and have taken some big risks that have paid off. Totally. And I think also we'll see more of these sort of like hybrid situations come like a great example is like Tefee and LeCut. It's like she's talking about material on their ONO and they own it. But also like that gives the journalist some distance. There's also like an issue of safety with journalism. Like a thing you're like maybe in my investigative journalism work about so and so company. And that allows the creator to be the face of this thing and and discuss it in a way that's like exciting to people without having to jeopardize what it is. Totally. And I think that that is something that I like a lot more brands will tap into finding ways to do that. Yeah, I think like there is an audience out there that wants this content. And so there's going to be really smart media companies that really lean in and try to capture that audience. Yeah. And I mean, what's fascinating is Spotify is the front runner. Spotify has spent you spent more than $10 billion on the industry of podcasts. Yeah, so you know, when we sort of look back at the past five years and we looked at everything from our infrastructure to audience engagement to creator, monetization, and payouts, we estimate that it's about $10 million, which is a lot. But you know, I think when it comes to our journey and podcasting, we really made a bunch of bets early that have paid off. And you know, we really focused on infrastructure initially. We purchased two awesome hosting platforms anchor, which is now Spotify for creators and megaphone. We worked really closely with a bunch of big creators. The Ringer Bill Simmons company is the best example of that. And we really have tried to work with these creators and help them grow, you know, for the past years and really trying to sort of fuel this industry. And so now I think what you're seeing is a lot of these creators have really broken through and becoming, you know, become household names in a way that I think even a few years ago, you wouldn't believe would be possible. So it's been super awesome to see the impact. Totally. And also I think something that like when I remember that year when Spotify had announced that they were like doing that initial $1 billion of like when you bought anchor and all the shows and IP and like something I think that people like that made the industry take podcasting seriously. Like this idea of somebody getting a multi-million dollar show deal through podcasting like didn't feel real or it was like for five people, you know what I mean? And when Spotify did that, I think it made everybody wake up. Yeah. Of like, oh well, like this is a thing that has insane real investment behind it. And now we're feeling that pay off, forget like. Totally. And like also seeing other really big companies in the space, which is great. I think it's wonderful that there's a lot of investment happening. But yeah, no, I mean, I think like we really have believed in this space for a long time and believed in the opportunity for creators, for audience. And I think we're seeing a lot of those bets paying off, which is awesome. Yeah. What is like a goal or like career dream you'd really love to do with something in the podcasting space? I mean, I want to be on more podcasts like this. Really? It's so fun. Yeah, totally. Having me back on anytime. I would love to. No, look, I think one of the things that I really care about is how do we get some of the smaller podcasts to become bigger podcasts? I think that's like a big discovery is traditionally one of the hardest challenges in the podcast space. 100%. It's really hard. And so I think like finding ways to sort of help build that funnel for smaller podcasts to attract a bigger audience is something that I care about a lot and acknowledge is really challenging. And so we've done a lot of things to try and help creators and really try to build that cycle where you become bigger over time and you really sort of find your audience. But I think that's sort of the thing that we really care about. Yeah, I have many thoughts about this. One though I do commend you of like I feel like there were the time on the internet when everyone was like we're going to be like TikTok and they added reels and YouTube shorts and Pinterest added was trying to make everything short form video. And I actually really commend Spotify for sticking to long form. Yeah, no, it's I feel like when we look at our superpower, it's engagement and and time spent on Spotify is so high that really always has made like we have this unique thing where people are willing to spend hours and hours and hours on Spotify listening to music, audiobooks, watching podcasts. So we really wanted to lean into that and and find more ways for people to engage deeply. Yeah, and and it wasn't I think it was an impressive decision because it was counterintuitive to where everybody thought the internet was going at the time. Yeah, but as we are years removed from that. Yeah, was it the right call? Yeah, no, I think like we are all grateful that there is still like long form media like I think yeah, like I said before, I think there's something that happens in like the second hour of a conversation that doesn't happen, you know, in the first hour and even I think something you said before about sort of traditional media, even if you think about sort of the new space and you think about someone doing like a news hit for five minutes versus going on a podcast for two hours, like the level of the depth of information that can be shared in two hours is just totally different. And so I think it allows for, you know, one of the reasons why there's a lot of trust associated with this format is because you're having these long form conversations where you can communicate nuance and you can have a discussion and go back and forth and that's not always been been possible with sort of more traditional media. Yeah, and and I think it's so important to to like like we are as humans are visual creatures in more than just like making something look nice, but also I think demeanor and body language and the way somebody engages in another person. Yeah, is very like telling to who they are in a way that like you just feel like you know them more than any sort of other interview format will ever do. And I think that's why politicians really gravitated towards it. Yeah, you know, 2024 was the podcast election, right? And again, I think like I commend a lot of the politicians that embraced podcasting because again, I think this is like a long form interview format, right? You know, it's not like a quick sound bite and you know, it's pretty unfiltered as formats go. So not always the easiest thing for a politician that's trying to manage their sound bites, but I think allows allows for a more sort of authentic experience for the user. Totally. And I think that with press and media for a long time, there has always been this idea that like you do not engage with bad press. Yeah, you do not engage with press that is not already in line with the beliefs or value system that you have. And what's interesting with podcasts is it's actually had the opposite effect, right? Like you even like Bernie Sanders went on Joe Rogan and he's defending his position and his stance and what he thinks and like regardless of of what you think of that, you can't deny that he clearly cares or is clearly knowledgeable about what he his belief in like what he's advocating for. And I think like inevitably like, yeah, you're going to agree with some things and disagree with other things. And it's really easy for that nuance to be lost in a three minute interview where you know, you really just get to the point, but in a two and a half hour conversation, I think you can actually get to a level of detail where you can realize like, okay, this person is saying some things I agree with. Yeah, and they're really smart. And then I don't agree with all of these things, but that's normal. And that's how we should be having these conferences. Yes, 100%. I remember randomly, there was, I can't remember what podcast it was, but it was, I was watching a podcast that Zoran had went on, Zoran Ramon Dami, the mayor of New York. And so many was asking about one of his policies. I think it was about grocery stores and providing government owned grocery stores. And they were like, they just asked him and he gave his idea and they're like, well, what if it doesn't work? And he was like, and if it doesn't work, then I will stop it and try something new. Yeah, totally. And I'd like, I never heard a politician say that ever. Yeah. Of just like, this is my idea. This is why I think it will work. But if it doesn't work, I will adapt and move on. I think like, yeah, with podcasting, it's like, the camera's rolling. Yeah, exactly. There's only so much you can do to avoid a question. And again, it's like not a three-minute news hit. Like a host can ask follow-up questions. And I also think like, people know now that if they want to resonate on a podcast, you have to be like somewhat real and authentic. Like, you can't totally be as the audience, you know? Yeah. And it ends up working even worse, if you say I totally know what I mean. But I have an interesting thing to like, something I also found interesting about the like, medium of podcasting is how it's really like spawned its entire genre of content. Like the entire great example to me is true crime. Yeah. Like for some reason, that is just, it's been an essential part of podcasting forever. And people love that sort of long-form explanation. What sort of categories do you want to push? Like, what are you really thinking is the future of conversations that are not being had on podcasts yet? Yeah. I mean, definitely so true crime is a big one that's been super successful. I think that wellness is one that's been really big this past year. Yeah. A lot of big podcasts in sort of the broader health and wellness space. Everything from like science-focused podcasts like, you know, Andrew Huberman's podcast to more, you know, less about health like, you know, Mel Robbins podcasts, even though she does speak about health sometimes. So I think that's one that will continue to see really big sort of moves in. You know, I think one of the cool things about podcast, so we've added this video component. Right. And for the most part, a lot of that video is talking head content right now, which makes sense. But I'm kind of curious to see what happens with video. Are there new types of video that sort of that become successful? Like, yeah, maybe it is like really high production, you know, studios or maybe it's like really low production, like direct camera video journals. But I think that there's going to be a lot of opportunities that the that video presents that weren't possible in audio. So yeah, curious to see what happens there. You know, the only other thing that I would say is like, we are starting to see a lot of content on Spotify that they probably don't define themselves as a podcast. It might be a creator like Nick Di Giovanni that was producing content that has content other platforms, you know, mythical, etc. So, you know, podcasts are great, wonderful, and work on Spotify. But I think we're starting to also see other types of content work to content that maybe still has some of the same hallmarks as a podcast and that it's creator driven, host driven, released with a regular cadence. It's long form. It's not like 20 seconds. But I think we're just sort of scratching the surface to see like what kind of content might work that that is not necessarily a podcast. Yeah. And and formats of viewing, I think will be interesting. Like watching on your TV is like such a huge yeah, like I weirdly watch most podcasts on my TV. Yeah, I know. I think that's pretty common for a lot of people. I mean, part of it also is if you're doing something else like it's easy to have it on the big screen. Yep. I want to circle back to something talking about like the growth of podcasts and smaller podcasts because that I think is like the biggest barrier facing them right now is it's like the only medium where the entire basis of it is funneling an audience from somewhere else. What sort of ways have you been thinking about diagnosing and solving that problem? So when it comes to audience growth, I think I think of it in like two steps. The first step is you have to be doing everything right with your show. And a couple of the things you need to be doing are releasing content consistently. Yeah. Like I said, you don't want to like stand up your audience and not have an episode drop when it should. And you really need to be listening to your audience, you know, we've launched a bunch of engagement features like comments that allow for that two-way conversation. We have a really powerful analytics platform that allows you to get some great data about what's working and what's not working. And so, you know, you got to lean into what's working and avoid the things that aren't working. And you obviously have to like manage all your metadata. You have to have show that feels right. You have to do your episode descriptions and your show descriptions, make it as descriptive as possible. So, you know, I think once you have that foundation set, you're on a good spot. But obviously, there's still a lot of work to do to actually grow that audience. A couple of things that we really focus on, I think, cross promotion is still probably the best way to grow an audience, which is basically who are the other podcasts that are like you? And how can you collaborate? Whether that's like guessing on their show, doing some type of promotional swap, or you get them in inventory, and they give you some inventory, and you can call each other out, or any other host of ways to work together. That's a really tried and true way to grow, and has been so for a long time. You know, I think one of the great things about all of these short form social platforms is it does allow for you to Get clips and put them out there and really raise awareness for your content I still think you want people coming back to Spotify because that's where you're gonna get that Really highly-retentive and loyal audience the deepest the deepest connection But you can really get your content out there in a way that wasn't previously possible and And then you know, we work pretty hand-in-hand with creators to really help them understand where they are and how to get from point A to point B To really ensure that yeah, to ensure that we're doing everything we can to sort of funnel audience to them in the right ways Yeah, and Yeah, we've got a lot of fun sort of discovery features that we're working on right now So definitely expect some big things later this year, but Yeah, a lot of what we focus on is trying to help these creators lean in and find ways to grow their audience Right, yeah, I'm sure that I know this is a tough question because I'm sure there's many things you can't like no it's talk about our share It's definitely like the number one question that creators have which is how do I grow and it's There's no one way to do it. I think it's about doing all of the things right and yeah, and really sort of putting yourself out there Yeah, it's it's super interesting and I'm very interested to see how the app itself changes to facilitate that because you know like I talk a lot about music on the show Yeah, and the more and more I've learned about the music industry the more I've learned how important things like play listing are yeah And how much of a tool that in an amazing tool is for Spotify to be able to Highlight a new artist, you know what I mean? And I think as Podcasting develops, you know sort of finding what what is your version of that? Yeah, and you know, we there's a bunch of great Places on Spotify where people are discovering podcasts. Yeah, and And we're using sort of all the metadata that you guys provide to really get your Podcast to the audience that we think is most likely to watch it and so I think that's sort of another source of Audience acquisition that people are are really starting to see yeah, and in our analytics platform You can sort of see the number of impressions that you're getting on Spotify and how that translates into actual listeners Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really cool I love that also this is my pitch is my idea for you I want you to add a collaboration post feature like what the other platforms have done totally I mean, or it's like if I'm doing as something with the you have a podcast totally that that like exists on both feeds I think is all take that back to the team like I said the best way to grow your audience is through cross-promotions Yeah collaboration definitely feels like and I think over times you it's something even artists would value or something You know what I mean? Like they're like this. This is all my press that I've done to this album like yeah One of the things we focused on is how do we make a creator's show page feel more Customizable and so you can add more than you've ever been able to add before you can tell audiences the best episode to start with You can point to other content on Spotify. I love that so definitely watch that space I think being able to give creators more control over that is is gonna be really helpful. Yeah, totally I also have like Just a random sort of open-ended question for you. What sort of predictions do you have for the future of creators and entertainment? That's a big question. There's no right or wrong answers. Yeah, that's true I think the trends that you identified are really going to accelerate for sure, which is I think that Creators are going to increasingly want to own their IP and own the relationship that they have with their audience And they'll want to find ways to activate that audience in new ways. So Podcasting is a great hits a bunch of those things. It allows for you to Speak to your audience week after week. It allows for them to you know engage with you and really tune in and in the long run I think we will see more focus on how to activate those super fans and you're already seeing some of that More creators are doing live tours that I was about to say that was gonna be next question. They're going all around to talk to people Yeah, Merch we're seeing a lot of creators really grow their subscription offerings as well Putting content behind a paywall To really try to try to find ways to really monetize those those super fans. So I think that's what we'll see more of and Then hopefully we just see a bunch of awesome podcasts It happened like I think again like the cool thing about this space is it's really hard to engineer success The most successful podcasts are not generally the ones that were created in a boardroom, right? It was like a creator who just manages to resonate But one of the one of the byproducts of that is it's hard to predict success like you don't know who's going to Resonate who's gonna have a really big year But chances are it's gonna be someone you wouldn't expect. Oh, I like that I the touring thing is so fascinating to me. I think that is really something that's gonna explode and Is integral like it? It's when I think about music like it's so in-person fan interaction is Necessary for developing like real community. It is a bedrock of yeah and and That I think is something that's gonna be really really and like I could scale you know like I like It are we gonna enter it a time where a caller daddy type podcast or has an opener of a smaller show on the unwell network Do you know what I mean? I know totally I think um I Think like a lot of the Bigger creators are really looking at these live shows almost like Events and of themselves they often have a brand sponsor. They bring on board. Yeah, sometimes there's music openers So and if I don't know if you've ever been to one of them. It's like really fun. It's cool I haven't been to one yet, but I would love to yeah, it's great I was at Amy Polar's live show right before the holiday. She interviewed Maya Rudolph on stage It was like the best night. Yeah How well how like was the energy of the room like feeling like an hour-long dialogue sitting there is a different than a concert Yeah, it's you know I think again like part of the funny thing about podcasts is you feel like you know These hosts like even if you don't right and so Being able to see them in person and sort of have them invite you into their space Feels like a very natural thing actually because you kind of feel like you've been doing it for you know However long you've been watching the show. Yeah, that's amazing And then I think like my going off something that you just said to like I think another fascinating thing about it is Like we're also seeing this podcasting become this sort of Metric use for other things in the field like a great example to me is like Caleb here and having a comedy podcast Then like getting a stand-up special right like it's becoming this the proof of concept You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean if you can attract a large audience to your podcast like that is a large loyal audience and I think that You can activate them in really unique ways One way is by yeah getting people to tune into a comedy special But I think there's probably a bunch of other ways. I mean we've definitely seen a lot of creators launching Brands like products that they sell that they feel like are authentic to who they are and again I think one of the reasons a bunch of them have been successful is because they have this audience that is tuning in and they They know that you know the problems that they're facing and trying to solve through a product are the same problems that their audience has So I think they will continue to see that happening for sure. Yeah. Well awesome Jordan Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me interesting to pick your brain about those. Thanks so much