How Could a Good God Bring So Much Pain Into the World?

Welcome back to Hubernanholy. Thank you for having me back. So excited. So excited to have you back. We are doing a three-part series on this book, The Introduction to the Zohar, The Wisdom of Truth by Robbie Huda-Layb-Ashlug. And I'm really excited because we're going to cover many topics on Kabbalistic Wisdom and really dive deep into some of the core ideas in this book. Can't wait. Let's give a little bit of a historical context. He lived from 1886 to 1954. He wrote this introduction to the Zohar called the Sulaam, which means a ladder, a ladder to climb and to help understand and develop the ideas of the Zohar. He believed that many people read and studied the Zohar at face value, which is such a phenomenal critique to me because I'm thinking, how can you study the Zohar? Even the Zohar is not face value. Even if you do take it at face value, you're learning about the spiritual worlds and the spiritual reality. But regardless, I love it. And that's actually where he had that little fierce exchange with other scholars where he really been on the fact that people were not searching for its interdimension and meaning. So his project was to really find the interdimension and meaning behind the words of the Zohar and to help people access it in a way that would truly transform them. He begins his introduction to the Zohar with questions and inquiries that a person would have. I love the beginning with questions because I think that in general, when it comes to deep truths about reality, first you have to find the questions and the curiosity about them to even want to study about it. And whenever we immediately dive into the answers and don't first delve into the questions, I think that we miss such a core piece of exploration, even for myself to visit these questions, which many of them are pretty core questions that many people have around spirituality, got me ready to receive the answers because it awoke that desire to understand the answers and creating the desire. Yeah, creating the desire. There you go, to speak in his language. All right, do you want to begin with some questions? What is our human essence? What is our role in this great chain of being of which each of us is but a small link? When we examine ourselves, we feel that we are defective and low. There's little, more despicable than we are. When we examine the maker who made us, we ought to be superior and perfect as a perfect maker ought to make perfect things. Logic dictates that God is a great benefactor and none are greater than Him. Why has He created so many creatures who suffer and experience lack during their existence? Good desires to just be so good and certainly not to generate so much suffering. I think that is the biggest, hardest, most controversial question when I talk to people about my-- growth. And by the way, it started in college with learning. And then it became real and embodied in a very, very, very difficult period of my life, which involved a lot of isolation, sickness, uncertainty for people around me is just this idea of how can you have a good God who brings so much pain into the world? And it's very-- I think it's very important to confront this head on because for a lot of people, they're just-- it really reminds me of-- if you're a child, and you got forbid, had a painful childhood, it's hard to not look at your parent and hold onto a lot of anger. And I think a lot of people when they go through life and they experience pain and suffering, which is inevitable in a part of life. And I think a lot of Judaism is-- how to-- and this book, the contents of this book, is how to use that for elevation and see it as a part of elevation, one and the same. But it's hard to not feel angry. And I think it's probably the number one question for the 90% of Jews who are not religious, that I think holds them back from delving further. It's that question. It's just like, why me? Like, why would God want to do this to me? I think it's so important. And it's challenging to answer. Because if someone comes to you with a horrible tragedy, how are you supposed to-- I struggle with it. What am I supposed to tell someone? And so it's exciting to get the tools to be able to talk to people about how to understand why our world works the way it works. I think it's like a critical part of-- I think just healing people's relationship with God, period. When you talk about the embodiment and expression of your Judaism happening in a time of darkness or suffering in your own life, did you go through that period of disconnect? How did you respond to yourself in that moment when you thought, how could God create this suffering? It's really interesting. So I never want to judge anyone else's experience because I was also coming off of two years of learning when this happened. And so it's not the same as someone who has no context and then experiences negativity, which I think is very different. In my specific case, was there moments of resentment, frustration, pain? Are there 100% human being? But at the same time-- and this is why I'm so-- this is why I love Kabad. And this is something I really love about Ashlog is, when you are goal-oriented and you have a true belief and experience that belief that there is a future reality where there are no problems and everything is OK, it really gets you through. And that idea of whatever you want to call it-- salvation, a singularity, a great leap, the messianic era, the vision of a world where there-- and a version of you, where there is no more suffering and you have clarity about why what's happening is happening. I think it helps tremendously to get you through a problem. Because then I think the worst thing about suffering is if you feel like there's no point. It's like that's the most brutal aspect is when it's just for fun. Could there be something worse? Just for fun. Yeah. But that's really how some people, I think, unfortunately, internalize challenge is like as though they're being bullied by the world, versus seeing it as something that has to happen for your good and that actually-- and this is something Nashlag talks about, of like about suffering, how actually-- and this is going to sound a little crazy-- but how it in of itself is good because it is for this good. And not to jump ahead, but this idea of the three states of the soul, like the soul and its perfect state at the moment of creation. And then the soul and this kind of in-between state where it's revealing its internal essence and doing its tikunim and then corrections, let's say. I'm very mindful that there are viewers who have no idea what any of these words are. And then the third stage, which is-- it's like the soul's crossed its finish line. And it's in this perfected state. I love that vision, by the way, that's something from Rabbi Akiv Attats. Like the true essence of pleasure being like when you watch a marathon runner, like breaking through the finish line, like the tape of a finish line. And you have this feeling of completion. It's like the most-- and they don't necessarily look happy, but it's like the most intense joy. Is that feeling of completion and oneness, which is I think the essence of what we're all working towards? I think if you can maintain that experience of wholeness and oneness, it can get you through pain. I know that's what got me through that period in my life and a lot of prayer. I was praying three times a day, which I don't do right now. But at that point, I really needed it. This was also at a point when my hero was weak. And it took me no exaggeration, 45 minutes, to get through the Amida, which is like the prayer that we say three times a day. And it has 18 different blessings in it, kind of like a roadmap of all the-- at a very cabalistic prayer that was composed by our sages that kind of takes you through almost in a mantra, like state what you should be. thinking about bringing into your life. But just connecting with the transcendent and remembering that this is just temporary. And it's gonna, even if it's, and there's obviously there's no guarantees who knows how long something's gonna last. We say it's temporary. Life is temporary. There's two ways to say nothing matters. One is like this. Nothing matters and like you with despair. And then there's another which is like, oh, nothing matters. And like you can just kind of like move through with just knowing like what's happening here. It matters, but also there's something so much bigger that there's a bigger story and it's gonna be okay. There's a couple things that came to mind. One is chapter 26 of Tanya, which speaks about how when a person is experiencing suffering, the awareness that suffering or really any experience of darkness in this world is coming from Alma Discazia, which means the concealed world versus Alma Discazia, which is the revealed world. And the reason is is that darkness is not limited by an expression in this world that would have to portray it as good. And so it's actually a pure more concentrated version of God's light. And it's a very deep and difficult to integrate idea. I think when someone is really in that state of suffering and always as a teacher, it has always felt like a very difficult thing to portray to people when you know that there are people in the room who are suffering and are experiencing the darkness that's been described very hard. And in a poem by Yoshino Vembre, he speaks, it's called Two World Exist, which is also the name of his collection. He speaks to this chapter of Tanya and to this concept. And he says, is this something that someone says to another that is suffering? Divine awareness does not always register a certainty. Faith and the fact that this is true does not always register with enormous conviction. If it would, then we would experience just complete joy and bliss and God's love in those moments of darkness. But I think as human beings, what is available to us is that sense of possibility about that being true and that being a source of comfort. And in those moments of darkness, what I have tried to do is to open a tiny window towards the possibility that this is God's love. Even if I can't fully experience it, and there is a measure of comfort to knowing it, even if you're still within the darkness, because inherent within that love and that expression of light is the experience of hardship for the human being. And it doesn't necessarily cancel out the hardship, but it just, it just keeps you connected to the truth even as you are being asked to face hardship and darkness. - Yeah. I think also something that's very healthy and useful is seeing yourself and this work really does this very nicely. Seeing yourself, as he just said, as a role in this great chain of being of which each of us is about a small link. When your life isn't just about your life, like sometimes things happen that are tragic and we don't see the revealed good of it. No. Happens all the time, yeah. And there's no pretending and trying to see the cup half full of this tragedy. It's a tragedy, plain and simple. But at some, in some aspect of creation, in the great play or the simulation, however you wanna think about it, that we are all in here in this physical reality on Earth. If you really take to heart and believe with your full being, that I am a spiritual being, having a physical experience, I am here in this world to complete a mission and the goal of that mission and all of our missions is to reveal how this world is just a hallway, a simulation, something to get to a concealment of this greater unity, then you can feel more okay with whatever's happening because it's not personal. It's just, it's like there is a writer and the play has to go this way. This is how the play has to go, but it's moving towards this beautiful end. And I say this with a lot of caution because we are a religion that loves life. We are people that loves life. We treasure life above all else. And I think there is a dance between holding these ideas and also standing very, very firmly that there is a value to your material existence here and we should do everything to preserve and uplift that life. And holding those two truths at the same time is very important because it's not to say that, you know, "Oh, everything's just for the sake of something else that's, you know, we can't see and it's not revealed here and so world is bad." No, the world is good. Like God says clearly, we just read in British sheet, like creation is good. And so it's not that this place is bad. It's just we have to under, we have to, we have to contextualize it, that it's not everything. Like it's good, it's very good, but also, and we are good, but also we are again, but a small link. And that just kind of help, I don't know. It least provides us with a greater sense of a bird's eye view of certain challenges. I think that that's the challenge when studying about the spiritual worlds and Jewish mysticism and these concepts, which do point to the fact that this world is a simulation or that this entire universe is just a part of God's imagination. And as long as he's thinking it into existence, it exists and if for a moment he chose not to think it into existence, we would all seize to exist. That reality is really mind-boggling, if you think about it. On the other hand, to actually believe and trust that the world is real and the proof of that is in the fact that God created the world. In the fact that we are told our origin story, like that's the proof that Jewish mystic spring that the world is real, that we are not just a simulation. And I think it's significant when studying about spirituality, spiritual worlds, the concept of us being just in God's imagination that we stay very connected to the fact that the world is 100% real, that we are asked to live within this world and trust our experience of it while holding that awareness that there is more to the story than just our world, that this is not the end of reality. I think what you're hitting on is this concept, which Rob Oshlog takes head on of Is Kabbalah Dangerous. And how do you transmit these ideas without creating a framework for someone that's incompatible with living a happy and healthy life here in this world? And like the idea of the four who went to Part A's, who experienced these great mystical truths, Part A's being as you explained in the last episode, the four levels of revelation with Intora. And how to accept that reality in a way that's uplifting and not nihilistic. And if anything, I would almost think about it more broadly again with this idea of let's not seed, let's not make Judaism this and then all other ideas are here. Like I think so much more is Jewish than we think about. And like even some 20th century ideas that are people who are contemporaries of Rob Oshlog, who were very nihilistic in the face of the two greatest wars the world has ever known, genocide of the Jewish people. There were also many prominent thinkers that just their understanding of suffering and seeing that maybe this world is an illusion, led them towards nihilism and depression. And I think a lot of the turning back to Torah today is that those frames of reference for reality I think did take over a lot of the secular world and they've led people down very unhealthy paths of living. Like I just, I think that it's a very clear, at least for me that's my own personal story is that it's a turn away from what we would see as like enlightened nihilism, which is I think and or enlightened hedonism, which is like nothing matters and then I can just do whatever or nothing matters. And so I shouldn't even try to do anything, which is I think two predominant illnesses that you see a lot of people suffering with in our world. It is this incredible, delicate but incredible way to hold these two truths at the same time that you have to take life really seriously. Life is the most important, most valuable thing and yet also it isn't life in the sense of our physical embodied lives here isn't the full picture. - Yeah. - That is like a, that balance of those two ideas is kryptonite and there's some, there's some eerie stories of Kaboom. or chisidic masters who lost their lives in moments of meditation. - Yeah. - Who it gives me chills, actually even just talking about it, because some of the stories of people asking another person to be there with them or R.A. Kaplan, who spoke about someone else being in the room with you that shouldn't be alone in certain experiences. And he was found lost in a place where he often meditated at a very young age he died. And he passed away. And I think these are like really chilling moments that point to how a regular person needs to find the balance between trusting and recognizing that this world is an illusion or I don't actually like the word illusion for that. Trusting that this is not the full picture of reality our own experiences, while also knowing that staying tethered and embodied in the physical world is so significant, which is why I think that sometimes those who lean more spiritual and do study these teachings, part of their spiritual work is embodiment, exercising, grounding, being in nature. And sometimes people who are so invested in the physical world, part of their work is becoming more connected to abstract ideas, meaning every person has to find their own individual balance that helps them walk that tightrope between divine awareness and human reality and recognizing our role in the intersection of those two and being able to hold both those truths in ways that are healthy and balanced and lead us to deeper connection to Torah. And another point, I think that's really big for me there, is that it's when we see the intersection, the interconnectedness of Kabbalistic teachings in the full web of Torah ideas and Jewish ideas, including the legal aspects of Jewish law, and the development of law, and living our lives in connection to that. There's something very grounding and embodying about those teachings and mysticism obviously illuminates that even more. I was going to say it's the mitzvot. Like that's what tethers us. And by the way, enables us to, when we think about how do we share such lofty ideas in a way that both resonates and also is lasting, it's not just, like it's one thing to go and have a crazy meditation and experience and you're on a high. Or you go to a course and you hear some crazy ideas and you're on a high. But you then have to integrate those ideas and actually see a change within. If you're not changing, if you're not revealing the godliness within yourself from experiencing such incredible light and your vessel is in expanding then something in the project is not working. And I think the point is that what, and I think this is what Oshog's goal was is, we get a new set of eyes through which to look at the mitzvot when we have this framing about the nature of our world. And yet, when we're getting this new framing, when we're receiving this new framing about the nature of our world that we're discussing, all the more do you need mitzvot, just to live in it in a healthy way. And it's a theme that he discusses in the book. It's really struck me which is that there's two paths to moving from not to jump ahead. But I think it just really fits nicely to move from someone who's a receiver, someone who's a giver, and that is Torah and mitzvot or it's through suffering. And it's an intense idea to read. And I think the idea being that you can either, and again, also holding that I don't think anyone asks to suffer or deserves to suffer. And I don't think that's what he's trying to say either. I think it's more this idea that, and that's why I really like the idea of like a simulation or a video game because it versus an illusion because a video game has a goal. Like there is this like end goal where you've like succeeded and you have this completion that you're moving towards where we have to get from point A to point B. Like we have to get there. And so the idea of the suffering isn't that you have to suffer so that you feel bad about yourself or that you have to, you know, in some way humble yourself or from this kind of negative bullying place. It's more about revealing light and that we have no choice but to get from point A to point B. And that's kind of the point that he's making at different points of the book is we're all on a ride together. And I think that's also what he's trying to do in promoting the inner beauty of the Torah is that I don't think he wants people to suffer. I think it's kind of a warning. Like please see the value in Torah and Meets vote. As a way to avert our suffering. It's very clear that his goal isn't to, you know, God forbid bring calamity, quite the opposite. He's trying to prevent calamity by showing people the beauty of what the Meets vote have to offer. It is from this place of like extreme love and care that he's trying to share the slight with the world. Even myself, like I get so embarrassed to be completely honest, even doing a podcast. Every time we post a real or when the video's posted, I have a pit in my stomach. - Okay, say why? - Because there's just something there is something embarrassing for me personally. It's my own Tikun about even if I have passionate about ideas about putting myself out there. But then at the same time, I think to myself, that's, you just gotta do it because it's an expression of faith that like, even if this resonates with one person, that's one more person. If you really take Oshlau's point of view that we're gonna get there the good way or the bad way, then we have to take that seriously and we should bring people along for a life full of meets vote. I just really, I sincerely believe that. And so that's like what helps me to push through my embarrassment is just to remember that it's for this greater cause. - First of all, okay, there's a couple things. First of all, I love that you actually highlighted the discomfort that you have when sharing on a podcast and sharing in that way because I think that speaks to what it looks like to actually work from conviction. If there are still challenging human emotions that arise in that process, to the point about keeping Torah and meets vote as a way of averting suffering. I feel a little uncomfortable with that line of thinking because I think that it threatens people and holds something over their heads that seems too godlike for my comfort. - Yeah. - Because I don't actually know the path of suffering and what I would think, and this is how I would interpret that idea in ways that align from you with like other ideas within chastity and capitalistic thought and Jewish mysticism is the idea that when we are in a position of suffering, we are asked to be undone by the darkness because God is creating something new for us and a brighter light. And that it's a descent that we are being invited into. And actually the only thing that we have to do is almost let ourselves fall and let ourselves crumble and let ourselves experience it because we do not choose our suffering. Obviously there's like self-inflicted suffering and I think that's a totally different conversation and we're being asked to expand our vessel. And sometimes it's suffering that is, it does feel random. We know it's by divine choice, but when people are hit with bad news or really difficult experiences, I do think that those are moments of just free falling. And for me, there's enormous discomfort with putting that in relation to Torah and Midsood. I think it's circumstances that God, of course, is in control of, but that in those moments, and this is something that I've seen over and over again, is it's an invitation for God to just, it's an invitation that darkness can be an invitation from God to endure, whatever Hashem is asking us to experience, to crumble, to crack, and from that brokenness, a brighter light is going to emerge and the trust is just to be able to fully experience what God is setting out to you. And obviously we can find strength within it, we can find brightness and I think I'm often very inspired by people in those moments of challenge when they do. But as a message, I feel that the message is, is if God is putting us there, it's the trust that a brighter light is coming as opposed to we did something to deserve this or earn this that. - I completely agree and I think the word suffering is limited. Suffering isn't just, I think when he says, we're gonna get there through suffering or through tournament. So I don't think it's the way in English we might hear and think about the word suffering. I think we think, when I hear the word suffering, I think about natural disasters, illnesses, God forbid, like the worst of the worst. I even just, I I think we should make it more small and relatable even. I've just like the suffering of feeling, like you wake up in the morning and you don't have a clear sense of like how and where your day should map out. Like I think it's like even, and I love this idea of suffering as Tohu, which is chaos and chaos as undirected potential, which is exactly what you're saying. It's a gift because now when you're not in a structured domain, you have the ability to be a creator, which is very powerful. It's the ultimate power. And so that's a part of the descent where you can really feel authentically grateful. Like, okay, I'm hitting bottom, but now I have the chance to reimagine and reinvent as scary as that might be. It still is an opportunity and it's about seeing it as the opportunity that it is, I think. I think it's a very powerful concept. And I agree with you. I don't, the idea that it's, I think that this concept that he puts forward of we're gonna get there through Torren Meetsvot, or we're gonna get through suffering is also contextualized by his idea that he says it's not the soul that's suffering. It's the impermanent aspects of oneself. Like as painful as that might be, it's again this idea of the three stages of the soul. Like, there is a version of you because God, the total unity and the oneness of our world is it's beyond the way that we experience time and space. And we have very good proofs and examples and science of this idea that we experience time in a very specific way that is not necessarily how it works. It's a subjective experience of time rather than the objective experience of time and space. But that there is a version in this unification of time and space of your soul that is whole and perfect and complete and that exists within you and that the suffering isn't suffering as an eternal damnation or punishment or like that is not a Jewish concept. It's just not a Jewish concept, not what he's talking about. It's more the pain of transforming your nature. And I think the point of it is not about, pain, it's more, are you going to transform your nation, are you gonna transform your nature of your own accord, which is torn, Mids-Vote, or are you gonna transform your nature through the force of experiencing life? Because we all, here's a truth that is very casually accepted is just, you grow as you experience things. I think everyone would agree that through the totality of life's experiences, and this is why we say elders have wisdom, doesn't matter, you don't need to be religious. Just that through living, you accumulate experience that transforms you from someone who is a taker and a receiver in your most infantile state to a giver. And that's like the vision of a healthy person. And so I think his point is not so much about punishing people. It's more just that there is a fast track, which is the Mids-Vote, but that anyways, and I agree with you, it's kind of like, it's not just because you're practicing Mids-Vote, suddenly you're averted from all problems. That's a very dangerous, incorrect, not true way of thinking. I think it's more just this idea of taking things on of your own will and your own accord, versus just, I know it is its own form of trust, just trusting that you're gonna have to just learn your lessons along the way and they're gonna happen. Like what's gonna happen is gonna happen. And you know, it's its own believing and looking at suffering or the pain of human existence in that way is its own form of emunah, I think. - I had a friend say this to me. She said that she, after experiencing some life challenges, she started to challenge herself, to put herself in experiences and circumstances because she said, I want to create those challenging experiences where I'm going to grow as opposed to waiting for life to give them to me. And then in the interim doing, in the interim, not necessarily growing in the same extent. I love what you said about how we recognize that as you experience life, you develop wisdom. We also recognize that as you are exposed to new information, you develop wisdom. And it's precisely in both of those. And Torah is wisdom, divine wisdom, Mids-Vote is life experiences of the divine. So it's like such a beautiful natural translation. It's through studying the Torah, through doing these, having these experiences of divine revelation through the acts of Mids-Vote, which we recognize and study through the Torah, we develop a spiritual wisdom through our embodiment of the ideas and experiences of it. So that to me would be a beautiful spiritual lens on what it means to develop wisdom through our actions and through the information that we interact with. - Yeah, and explore. - It's interesting 'cause it's kind of like, I think Oshlog, we were talking about this. He's this incredible bird's eye view of what's happening on this personal level, cosmic level, and then there's the how and not directly in this text, but I think works really nicely with this text is the idea of Musar, and which is like refinement of your character and refinement of your inner qualities. I think it works really nicely with this concept of just being the active driver in your own life. And this idea of free will, and again, this is I think another big question, right up there with suffering is, how is there both a divine plan and yet also room for free will? And free will is such an important core belief in Judaism that we have choice and that we don't believe in this idea of just leaving things up to fate. It's literally considered like idle worship. You have to view yourself, in viewing yourself as a piece of the divine, you have to view yourself as possible of the creation of your own world and a creator in the world around you. And so this idea of taking on where you see resistance which is I think when Oshog talks about expanding your vessel and this idea of Tikun of like seeking out the path of resistance, like the, what's that phrase? The obstacle is the way. Such a Jewish idea really resonates with me. Like I really believe in this idea of taking on shot. And you see it in a very simple, it's like, okay, choosing to go to the gym, going to the gym is hard. But when you choose to go to the gym, not obviously there's no guarantees in life, but you're radically changing your odds of facing certain illnesses. Every time that you decide to wake up a little bit early to exercise or you make the choice to eat right. Like we see this in the most simple aspects of what it means to be a happy, well integrated human being. And I think it's just about, I think what Oshog has to offer is seeing that beyond just these mundane aspects of like, okay, there's eating right, there's working out, but then there's also all these other levels of what does it really mean to take seriously this idea of taking on challenges as a part of your project? Like in your reactions towards others, in your own behavior, and then also obviously in the external world around you, but just viewing that as a part of the project of what it means to be a whole person is really excellent idea. Yeah, I like that a lot. And not to shy away from those challenging experiences that will bring us to a stronger sense of self. It's empowering because it puts you back in the driver's seat. Like instead of, oh, why am I having resistance in this relationship or with this person, whether it's your spouse or another family member, a friend, some kind of a situation, your in-laws, whatever it is, instead putting yourself in the driver's seat of I'm going to be the proactive person to go against my nature. We think about the hero's journey as something that's over here, but we're grounded in Meetsville, and it's kind of like this idea of routine and rhythm. But I just see that as that's what's grounding you in what should be the face of a massive adventure where you do not know what your day is. If you already know exactly every aspect of what your day is going to look like, it's like that's, too much rigidity. The point of the mids vote is to ground you because you are accepting and bringing in the Tohu. You also need the Tohu. And I think that's a part of what… I think it's a part of what this text is also trying to get at is that you're not in a perfected state when you've averted adventure. Like it's very easy to create a very boring life and then say that you're enlightened. Like no, the point of… And it's like this idea we're talking about this on the phone of when we think about who our fearless leader is going to be that's going to take us into our perfected state of the world. There is this teaching that Mashiach wrestles and enters darkness to bring light. Like he's not off, you know, preserved in an ivory tower, isolated and kept in like all, you know, white, un-stained clothing and like how could he look in the eye of a commoner opposite, opposite on an adventure? That is a person on an adventure. And like there… That's like the… I feel like that's what strikes me as the correct energy to bring to life when we're talking about this balance again of this world matters and yet there's a bigger picture. The marriage of those two energies to me is the spirit of adventure. Because you take life seriously, but not so seriously that you can't take a risk. And you have to be encountering the risks. Okay, I can't even say how much I loved you bringing in that phrase, the spirit of adventure and how very often we look at Mitzvot as being these routines and habits are going to be integrating into our lives and creating sameness or order and structure. And instead looking at Judaism as this call to a great adventure, I see this the most… I see this very clearly in our calendar in the Jewish holidays, which technically we cycle to the exact same holidays every single year. But you see how this is the vessel for us to infuse and experience the great light that is inherent within the vessel. But it's an opportunity to go on like such a trip through the entire year, such an adventure, such a deeper exploration of the themes of each holiday, how they impact the entire world, how they impact our own lives, how they impact every single part of who we are. And you really see that like journey happening through our calendar. And then to look at our day as well as being something that we can adventure through, through the lens of our spiritual practices, an example of that for me would definitely be prayer. Prayer is an opportunity to go on this adventure, to journey with your soul daily. And because of the fact that we have this incredible anchoring in the vessel and the words of prayer themselves, sometimes we could miss that inner dimension of adventure, spirit, really being in a state of openness to what it has to offer us. Kabbalah speaks a lot to the cosmic reality, to the sphero, to the divine attributes. And then the chastity practice has often been about de vacas, like attachment and cleaving to God and prayer. And all of these like daily practices, which draw down that cosmic reality into the person's experience and sense of adventure in their daily life, where those lofty spiritual ideas now become playgrounds for me to experience, wrestle with, and journey with divinity on a daily basis in ways that I don't always know where they will lead. I love that playgrounds. It's so true because that is the energy that we should bring, like when we talk about our service and our prayer being simple, what does that really mean? It's about approaching it with a healthy way, not simple, like the ideas are simple, but simple, like we don't need to over-complicate it and we can just have joy, like a child. Like the enthusiasm that you have as a young person when you learn something that's exciting, like I remember I went through a whole phase around age 10 with carnivorous plants, like Venus fly traps. And I was just so taken and I would read all these books and I know that sounds random, but I just had this unbridled enthusiasm and it was so fun to just delve into something and feel no shame or self-consciousness about what I found to be interesting. And I think approaching these ideas with that same kind of energy that we should be latching on to what speaks to our soul, and we should not be afraid to use that energy to just see it everywhere and play and go on a journey with these ideas in our life. It's not like it's only something that's very serious in our book and then we close our book and let know where have you been experiencing that play that you're describing right now in your life and your Judaism, where you do feel that just like unbridled enthusiasm, passion, ability to just explore and discover. I think to ground it back in this book and Oshlog's point, like I'm going to just read something he said. He says, "When I met with the people, I clearly saw their spiritual poverty, their ignorance and their foolish ways. Here, there is no clear voice in the wisdom of the Kabbalah. They just see Kabbalah as a collection of words and names with no parable and its solution, only literal words." And I think where I experience the playground is just, if you really take these ideas seriously, then they're not just ideas. You're in it. You're in it every day. I invite you to try to take even just one small concept, if there even is such a thing as a small concept. But take one singular concept and give yourself a set period of time to see how that concept maybe shows its face in your life. And if it doesn't, it doesn't, but at least in my case, the more I learned, the more clear it became that living by this picture of reality and living as though these laws are true, led towards an experience of life that felt more fruitful and meaningful and connected. It's hard to sometimes even put it into words. I think it's really one of those things that you just have to experience yourself to believe. But it is kind of this question that we were discussing is, how do you measure if something is true? What necessarily, how do you measure? Is it in how useful the idea is? Is it in something measurable? It's literal correctness. I think in I think in Oshlog's case, the way he thinks about it, and I do think it's a very. It's a great way to kind of battle test these ideas is just play with them. They're not they're not lofty esoteric ideas that are meant to be locked away in a book. And I think that's the beauty of doing this chavruta of this group study is to show people that in the same way that you might read any famous self-help, you know, pop psychology author and you take some key phrase or concept of theirs and we feel very comfortable just applying it and seeing it. There's no reason we shouldn't be taking how the creator of the world told us the world is created. And using that, in our life, like feel free and feel comfortable to use it. And I think like the more comfortable I get to use these ideas, the more clarity I have. I think it's a core point actually. I feel more and more and more and more clear. And like the clarity is like the the the the peace, if that makes sense. And the clarity is happening through seeing the ideas that you are playing within your life bearing fruit. I think a story of life as we saw in Braisheed, if we really take the Torah to be both macrocosmic and microcosmic and idea about us, it's the story of how do we go from darkness into light and from chaos into order. And so when you find a tool that or you you find a you find a way to structure your reality that productively turns chaos into order, in our human experience, that's a testament to its truth in a way that is productive. You know, I'm thinking about it. The one part of it that I call into question is just that I do think people can create structure with really bad ideas and rigidity. And that's the part of me that's reluctant in what I just said, and uncertain, because you do need also something to measure against how do you know something is fruitful for the good. You can be climbing a ladder and you just climbed it and you're at the top, but it was the wrong ladder. And suddenly you have to climb all the way back down and figure out which ladder you're going to start climbing up. And I, for sure, have had that experience. I love your challenge. I love that challenge that you just said, which is invitation to anyone listening to take an idea and to test it in their lives for 30 days. I think once you test it, you can kind of examine whether or not it holds. And I want to take that challenge upon ourselves. I want to ask both of us, too, because I'm like, if I'm going to challenge other people, you've got to challenge yourselves. Let's take an idea, hold each other accountable. One idea that you want to apply and test how long? 30 days? 30 days. Sure. 40 days. 14 days. You're actually going to do it. What's your concept? I think the idea I'm going to take on is giving as non-judgment and seeing that as like giving when there's resistance. I think it's a very good, healthy, practical idea for me to take on from from Ashluck. Okay, the idea that I'm going to take on is being first, being proactive, being the one to face the resistance and to do it first. So like in a disagreement, to be the first one, to kind of step out of it and to create a new reality in a moment of disconnection. So honestly, I'm so happy for everyone. I'm in a relationship for these next 14 days. This is your golden period. Oh my gosh. That is amazing. But I think that's mine. To be first, to face the resistance, to recognize that every moment of resistance is an opportunity to soften into the circumstances that God is giving me, where I'm being invited to expand my vessel, to be humble, to be a creator of the reality of connection. By the way, can I tell you how many times I would hear an idea? I would be taken by it. I would try to bring it forward in my consciousness and integrate it into my life. It didn't really resonate or land. I moved away from it. And then years later, it would pop back up in my face. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All the time. Sometimes you're just not ready for something. And this is something I love about the idea of Torah is cyclical. You really do every experience you have, you come back to these ideas in a different way. I really believe that. There are things that, especially now, through the transformation of being a parent and just experiencing more of life, you just certain things hit in a different way. You're new. You are new. Exactly. So you think the ideas become renewed because you're seeing them again in a different light. And you understand them in a deeper way. And again, not to, there's again, to delineate between like tragic, horrible, painful suffering, catastrophic suffering. And let's say like the suffering of just, the suffering that is kind of like the default state in many ways for a human being. I think we were all kind of saying agree because we're working towards this reality. We're joys at a vault state, but we're not there yet. In the way that like if we're not working towards it, we just have some degree of suffering. I had an experience actually yesterday where I was so embarrassed by something. It was accidental, but it was very embarrassing that you and that I experienced yesterday. And even just suffering, which is such a big word for like a small embarrassment, but like let's just, whatever. For me, I felt embarrassed. And even just that small embarrassment in of itself opened me up in a new way to some of these ideas. Because again, it's just like it's another, every time something like that happens, it's another reminder that, and you have to tap into this energy of like, okay, there's a bigger picture. And I'm finally getting to the point where I think in the past I might have really, and I think this is a natural evolution of aging. And maybe it's something especially I think in certain ways, specifically in women where you are in this period of heightened self-consciousness. I think that I'm like moving away from as I've become older where I was just able to like truly laugh at myself and like actually find it funny. And I don't think in my earlier stages of my 20s, I would have been able to do that, but it's because I was just much more attached to the character. I'll tell you something so embarrassing. I used to cry. Like if I had to break out, it would like make me cry. I would freak out. Like, and it's paint, don't be wrong. It can be, it's horribly painful to feel like you're not, your outside doesn't reflect your inside. But when I think about like all the things I've experienced since the point that I would cry about like getting a pimple before going to a party, I'm able to like really laugh at myself. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, 100%. Where was the suffering in that moment was so real?" I actually love that you brought in like that experience of suffering because let's move away from like the extreme versions of suffering or even like the, you know, the real processes to go through in our lives, even those small moments of embarrassment or, small moments of embarrassment is a perfect way of putting it, like allowing those to expand us and to, to be embarrassed and to allow that to like open our uptideeas to be able to laugh at ourselves, to also witness our growth in those moments, to say, "It's a great way to in the past I was so attached to my character that a breakout would have broken me and now I'm more attached to my essence so it might be unpleasant, but it doesn't break me." Yeah, exactly. And that's a moment of growth. I even think like, even in this idea of, let's say moving away from the bigger, more catastrophic and tragic pain. It's on another level, but it is, in so far as I understood it, when I was delving into these ideas in these moments of like more significant pain and suffering, it is just like, it's a totally different level and the vessel you need to have is on another level and I'm not saying I had it by any stretch of the imagination, only sharing it in so far as it's a learning is just, that's kind of like a microcosmic experience of how to think about those bigger experiences. And I think it's useful to think about it that way because then it doesn't break your world in the same way that it might when we put it in another category. Like something I've gotten so much strength from, like making it again, very real world is like, when you listen to the testimonies of some of these widows in the war that just thank God, I mean, I don't know, now that he's fire broke, but when you listen to some of these widows, when you listen to the hostages, like that's real catastrophic suffering. Like that is on a whole new level. And yet, like something so simple, but one of the hostages, he was FaceTiming with Omar Adam and he was telling him how his songs got him through and like humming his songs, got him through his isolation in the tunnels. And I think one of the songs was Modani, which is just like going through like basic things to be thankful for and this idea of, in the song of like, and you know, the pain will end, the suffering will end like this idea of like having faith that there is a point when you'll be able to look back. And I don't want to say laugh, but at least feel like you can integrate the experience. I think it's like very, it's very, very powerful and to be able to like tap into that future you. Yeah. And I think it's very effective, yeah. Back to that openness. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Tonya. I'm excited for part two. Yeah. This was great.