How can we teach with social justice science issues? (with Nina Hike)

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to another episode of Unpack Everything, Science Education Reform in the Real World. I'm Sam Pinter. In today's episode, Dan and I sit down with Nine a Hike, a Chicago Public Schools teacher who teaches with social justice science issues. It was really great to get a peek into what this actually looks like in her classroom with students. Nine has over 28 years of experience as a high school science teacher, specializing in AP environmental science, AP capstone, international baccalaureate, middle-years program, and honors in regular biology and chemistry. She's dedicated her career to educating students in the Chicago Public Schools system and currently teaches at George Westinghouse College Prep High School. In recognition of her outstanding contributions to education, she was named a 2021 Illinois finalist for the Presidential Award for Excellence in Math and Science Teaching, also known as the Pay Mist. Let's jump into our conversation with Ninea. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Ninea, welcome to the podcast. Could we start out by kind of walking through your journey that you've taken as an educator? Where did you start and how did you get to where you are now? Well, I think most science teachers at some point, they probably wanted to be a medical doctor. And so I did, you know, I went to UICD and I went through the whole thing of all being free men. And then I was like, well, maybe this isn't for me. So I kind of fell into being a teacher on the red line in Chicago. So it all started on the red line. One of my friends, we were on the train, and I was, we were going home. And he was like, you know, what you gonna do when you graduate? I was like, I don't know, I don't know. And then he told me about this alternative certification program for teachers, it was called Teachers for Chicago. And so that's how I kind of fell into teaching science. And so, but I've had a love for science since I was a little girl. And so I figured that, you know, since I love science, I could figure out this teaching thing. And then I would be able to provide this, you know, my, how I feel about science to other people. And maybe they like it too, you know, that's what I was thinking. And so I became a teacher. And so it's been a pretty amazing experience. But I would say at the beginning, like, you know, for the first probably 20, 'cause I've been teaching for 29 years. So I would say for the first probably 20 years, I was called myself a pipeline science teacher where I was trying to make sure that my students knew the science so that they could be successful in college and be engineers in the medical field. But then over, like, probably about 10 years ago, I started to kind of think about that. Like one of my students, he was going to be an engineer. And he kind of was like, you know, I'm just like, I'm gonna switch over to this agricultural thing because I just don't feel like I fit an engineering. And he felt like that wasn't the place for him. And so I started thinking about like, you know, me getting a student as ready for like the college STEM engineering, you know, science fields is that, you know, something that I should be doing, you know, only doing, you know, when I teach. And so I, you know, when I started the PhD program, it just started making me think about like, what, you know, what kind of teacher am I really, and how do I view students and look at students. And so I feel like I was like a traditional pipeline teacher, successful, traditional pipeline teacher. And then I became more of a very, probably very, I feel like I'm becoming more of that kind of teacher. A teacher that I believe that, you know, the historical, political, moral things that are, they are important to us, science, and not just the objective stuff. So I think I'm more leaning that way now. Sometimes the traditional science teacher will work back up. (laughs) They'll be like, what're you doing? Are they really learning to science? You know, so that's the battle on me right now. They're with myself as a teacher, so. (laughs) - Yeah, I definitely get that. I feel like those voices can sometimes linger in your head, even if you philosophically know that choices you're making are better, like the little voices in your head sometimes make you doubt. - Yes. - You mentioned this conversation with the student that kind of made you question if what you were doing was all that you should be doing and kind of shifted you over to this more holistic way of including historical and cultural things along with the science. I'm wondering if there's any other people or experiences that you've had that have influenced the way that you teach? - Well, I would say before that student, I think I was, we were doing like alternative activities, we were making comic strips about things 'cause you know how you go to those professional developments, they're like make a comic strip instead of having a test or whatever, right? So I have my students, we were looking up the structure of DNA and the story behind it. And so we were looking through the resources and stuff. And so then I think a student was like, who's this lady, Roslyn Franklin? It was like Roslyn Franklin? I was like, I said, only people, you know, most of the people that I've seen in books has been white male scientists discovering DNA and you know building up to it. And so they were like, you know how is this lady she keeps coming up? And so we started like really trying to find out about her. And so that was like probably the first time in class, like we were like really thinking about like, she's not in the book, she's not in the chemistry book, she's not in the biology book. Why isn't it she mentioned? And so that kind of made me start thinking about things that I was teaching. And then I worked at Marie Curie High School. So I was like, I've been working here for 20 something years and we don't talk, we don't talk about Marie Curie in our chemistry classes and she was very significant. Her work was significant. And so I started thinking about that. And then I participated in Dr. Letterman at IIT. He had this project, it was called Project ICANN. And so they kind of tried to shift you off before the NGSS, they kind of shifted us away from like doing the cookbook labs and like designing experiments and things in their nature. And so that also helped me kind of think about like how I was teaching science. And I started with the women, just really kind of like, where are women? And I mean, all these years I've never thought about it. I just would teach science, you know, and not think about the fact that there were any women really mentioned their scientific contributions, nothing like that. And so I just was like, well, that's something. So I kind of started that way and then Project ICANN and then just doing the pandemic when, you know, the protest started for George Floyd that also made me like question it. And it's just, you know, taking a PhD course is looking at like the journal articles that talked about the students and who did I position as smart and science and then how I view students. And then I had my own children, you know, three kids. And I think my son, he's the youngest, it really kind of stood out for me with him because he, you know, he sometimes his past sacked or he wore a hoodie like tight, you know, on his face. He would have headphones on and all that stuff but he was an honoro student. And he's now in college majoring in engineering. So it's like, why am I focused like on what they wear and in a sense and trying to determine if they're gonna be smart and science or not? Why is that my focus? You know, why am I policing what they wear before we could even do science? And so it's like looking at my son grow up and knowing that academically, he's a strong academic student even though he is got rocks and things of that nature, it doesn't mean that academically he couldn't be an engineer, you know? So I just started really thinking about it and kind of changing like my perspective on like those students that you'll give the side, I do. Like what they doing, you know? So yeah, I think those kind of things, like my own kids just looking at students differently and not through the lens that the kind of science, education lens, you know, kind of puts on you. You know, it's like a lens to look how you look at students and how you think about being a scientist. - Thanks for sharing that. I think hearing your experiences, how like each one kind of pulled back that lens a little bit more and has allowed you to get to the place where you are now is really interesting and I wonder, how that will continue to change as you continue on. - So, I know you said that you can say your approach right now to be very rooted in like Paul O'Faire. Could you just tell us a little bit more specifically like in a lesson across the unit, what does that look like? - I would say it's looking at like, how can I teach students alliance to help them transform their communities? And so I would say the first unit that we do is kind of the intro unit, you know, chemistry, intro unit, maybe about 15 years ago, I started teaching international baccalaureate biology and in that class, the kids had to, they have to design their own experiments. And so I hadn't designed an experiment 'cause that's not how I learned how to do chemistry. They gave us the lab, we did it, and that was it. And so I had to like kind of teach myself how to design experiments and identify variables and things that have nature. And so then I started teaching the biology kids if freshman year, I'd be middle years, then I had to, then I trans, you know, then I taught them chemistry, middle years, and then I would be there, I would teach her for two years. And so I knew what they needed to do to get there. And so I was like, you know, we really need a unit, like the intro unit to be something that's designed an experiment. Because how is it we going to teach this? You know, it's got to get it, understand how to do this. And so I started designing, like teaching experimental design years ago and IB. And so then I kind of, we kind of like made it our first unit. And so then I actually wrote a journal article about it. It's an NSTA science teacher. And then I wrote one for the American Chemical Society to use in the science writing heuristic. And so in that unit, I was teaching about, like Archimedes and, you know, his principal home. And I started looking like, I was like, there's got to be another teacher about density. And also at the same time, teach how to design experiments or whatever. And so I started googling, like ways that, you know, density is involved in other avenues. And so I came up on osteoporosis first because I'm a biology person. So I came up on that first. So I was like, I don't know, that's not going to really work to stretch into chemistry. And so then it popped up about Charles Drew. Dr. Charles Drew, he's a black chemist. And he basically started the blood banks. And I didn't know that. And so I was like, what? You know, he started the blood banks, you know, and he used density to separate the plasma from the ribble vessels and stuff. So, and he used like a centrifuge, right? So I'm like, wow, look at that, right? So I was really fascinated with that. So I was like teaching myself something new that I didn't know about. And so then I used that to kind of, I was, it was hard for me though at first because I was like, should I abandon Archimedes, right? Because that Eureka story is got experimental design. And it is like really fruitful for that. You know, I mean, some of my friends, we were thinking about it. So we just really got to the point where we don't like talk about Archimedes and we're like fully enthralled in talking about Dr. Charles Drew and his scientific contributions. And so that's how I kind of changed in terms of just letting those science stories go, right? And so I kind of let it go. And I started really getting into like, you know, Charles Drew's work and showing the students his work and his life and what happened with him as the, you know, kind of like the storyline of the unit and then learning about how he used safety. Because you know, like at the beginning of school you teach safety, you teach design and things of that nature. And so I said that this will be perfect, you know, a perfect way to do that. And so that's kind of how I say I shifted. And so then just through natural conversation, I was talking to my principal and I was telling him about Charles Drew and the blood banks. And he told me, he gave me some information about blood transfusions being used for sickle cell treatments. And I was like, what? He was like, blood transfusions for sickle cell treatments. I was like, wow, what were you talking about? And then he was like, black people's blood. It actually has different things in it that makes sickle cell patients feel better. And I'm like a biology major. So I'm like, what is he talking about? You know, and so I'm listening to him. I'm not discounting him. I'm like, he's, you know, feel like he's really knowledgeable about this situation. And so I was like, okay, you know? And so then of course, you know, I went and started researching it. And so then I was like, wow, that's deep. 'Cause I knew that sickle cell patients were in pain and I just knew about pain medications. And then I brought back and looked at some of the labs that I would do 'cause, you know, some of these companies, they sell the labs and they do the sickle cell and biology and you like identify if the person has sickle cell or not. And so I went back and looked through some of their readings about it and I just never heard about blood transfusions being like one of the ways that they treat sickle cell patients. And so I was like, wow. And so then I told my principal, I was like, we're gonna have a blood drive, right? I said, but it's not gonna be just any kind of blood drive. It's gonna be a blood drive to like increase the number of black people that, you know, donate blood because when Charles Drew started the blood donation program, he couldn't even donate blood because black people couldn't donate blood through the segregation. And so a lot of black people, you know, have a lot of, you know, historical reasons to not trust the medical field. And so this would be a way I was saying to get more black people to donate blood to have sickle cell patients. And so that, you know, just changing that story line to being about the scientific contributions of Dr. Drew and me just having conversations with people. So I would just talk about it with people. I think I was almost trying to convince myself that I was being okay too. So I would tell people about it too. And so I, you know, told people about it and then I would just get, you know, different feedback from people. And so I really, I'm really thankful that in that moment that it happened and I was able to, you know, have, we call it that we've had it twice now. It's called the Charles Drew blood drive. And you know, we talk about sickle cell. And then also went to the Chicago teachers union and asked them to have a blood drive. And so they had their first blood drive two years ago. And we talked about Charles Drew and sickle cell. And just raising awareness about sickle cell. And so I felt like teaching that way. That's more rewarding. And it's a local issue, you know, that people are facing. And so I felt like I'm helping students learn science to transform their communities, not just to be a science major in the college or engineering major, right? It's something that's really critical, you know, for their community because black students and brown students could have sickle cells too. And so I felt really good about that. And so I felt like that's the difference, you know, me letting go of our communities, the 200 BC story to get something that's really happening right now and impacting the community. And students can feel like they can be a part of the change in happening. So students, if they're 16, they donate blood, doing the blood drive, you know, so it's like, you know, now they know that they're donating for a reason. And it's not just this person that they may not see in the halls as people walking around a school that have sickle cell and they're making an impact, you know, in supporting them too. So I felt like it's really been a different feeling for teaching than just, you know, everybody's going to college. (laughs) This is why you gotta learn the science. (laughs) So I feel like it's definitely a different feeling. That's, I would say that's kind of an example. So we teach like experimental design. We use the science writing heuristic, Ryan Han, he developed it because he wanted students to be able to talk about science concepts and not, you know, how like in college, you're like in the lecture that you do the lab separate and they were finding that students weren't able to really talk about the science concepts with the lab. And so Brian Han, he introduced the science writing heuristic so that you could kind of get students to think about it like that. And so that also helped to, like it's kind of like everything kind of came together over time. So it's been, and it's been working, I feel like it's working. - I love how you shared this really particular example. And I also really appreciate about it is, I feel like a lot of the science there might be something that even a lot of science teachers are not intimately familiar with. Apparently because you were talking to your principal and he's like, oh yeah, you know about this? You're like, what? I don't know, it's a thing. - Right, right, man, that's, but then that's also the thing too is us really seeing and changing who we think scientists could be or people that know science or do science, right? 'Cause my principal, he knew, right? And he's not a, you know, he's not a trained science person but he knew about some genetics and things of that nature that I didn't know. But, you know, and it's like he knew though. And so people, just acknowledging people's prior knowledge. And we-- of experiences that a lot of students, you know, they have experience with things like this. Some students, when we were learning about Marie Curie, a student she shared about what she knew because her grandmother told her about Marie Curie. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, it's just honoring students, it's probably a knowledge too. And also being a teacher learner, right? So teachers, I learned, well, I could have been like, he doesn't know what he's talking about, right? And just walked away. But I actually was like, oh, Jesus, let me look at that. You know, and I learned stuff about it myself. I even just learned something this summer about the solubility, you know, because I'm like, I don't want to keep teaching solubility. What can I do with it? And so then I looked at solubility and blood transfusions. And so they, and you know, just dealing with sickle cell too. And so they have a test, the solubility test, where they are looking at the blood, when they're able to tell you if you have sickle cell or not. And so it's like, instead of just doing solubility, oh, mixed in this, this with that and seeing if it dissolves, if it's insoluble or soluble, you know? So now it's like, I can even add that to it this year, like that part of it. So it's been, it's like every year, I'm like learning more stuff. And then I have to convince the people on my team to be like, you know, it's just, and it's coming up like, not like I'm sitting up in my computer all the research and things. It's just happening over, you know, just in different experiences that I'm having. It, you know, makes me think about things. And then I may look at it on my phone or something like that. Well, like when you, like you encounter these ideas, when you're just living life and interacting with different people, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you know, I might share something or a student, like the college students that I'm teaching now, they made me think about like how, like I even introduced the first unit. So I'm changing that. So it's like, I've developed something to teach them. And now I'm going to use what I developed to introduce it with my students because I really didn't introduce it. You know, I probably started out with safety, like all the chemistry teachers do. And so I was like, oh, this will be good. You know, I can use it with my own students. So just circumstances happen or just like, like I said, the casual conversation. And then you have to have a principle that's going to listen to you talk about that too. That's receptive, right? So everybody's not receptive or listener, right? And so that, you know, he's, my principle is, you know, he was receptive to my, he's receptive to my stories and my excitement about teaching. And so that was a, it was just that day, you know, he was, I told him, you know, and he was like, oh, and then he had something to tell me. And so I was like shocked, you know, so it was, it was good. It was a good learning experience. Just listening to him talk about it. Yeah. So we, we did the book study over the summer of transformative science teaching. And it's all centered around this idea of social justice science issues in the classroom. What you just described, would you say that that is teaching with social justice science issues in your view? Or would you say you're doing something a little bit differently? Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like it's a social justice science issue because of the, you know, the treatment that sickle cell patients get. And just the fact that due to racism, you know, people don't, black people don't want to donate their blood. And it's really hard to get them to donate, but sickle cell patients need, need their blood. And so just, you know, getting my students to be donors at this early age, I feel like that is something wonderful to happen. And this local issue, right? So Danny Morales-Doyle talks about if it's a social justice science issue, it's a local thing that you're kind of continuing with. And it's not just a big grandiose thing that, you know, somewhere far that you don't even know about, you know, like Archimedes was in the tub, right? And it's 200 BC, right? Far, far away in another country. So now I get to talk about something with my students that's happening. It's somebody in the school walking, people are in the school walking around with it, right? And so they get to understand that, and they get to understand that it's okay to donate blood. And they're donating, you know, the kids that can, they donate. And they're excited to donate and help. And so I feel like that's definitely helping them understand the importance of blood donation and helping people in their in their local community. So because sometimes I feel like science is so far away, right? It's happening so far away that people aren't really viewing what they're doing in the community as science too. So I just feel like them understanding like what the process is about blood, collection, and blood processing, things of that nature, that'll kind of be mystifier for them. And then they will more than likely tell other people about it. And then maybe more people will donate. And so I feel like that's definitely, you know, the take action part, right? So if you are doing a social justice science issue, at the end, it's like what actions are you taking to help with your community? And so I feel like that's definitely, you know, definitely are doing social justice science with that unit. And also learning about 3D learning, you know, with the NGSS. So we're planning investigations. We're definitely doing a lot of modeling and making models and, you know, computer models, we're using computer models, we're using mathematical models of density, you know. So it's like all in the perception of what you value as like modeling and teaching, three-dimensional teaching. And so we're also looking at the electrostatic forces between molecules, right? So what causes the macroscopic stuff to happen at this, you know, the some microscopic level is making things happen at the macroscopic level, right? So we're still looking at patterns and things that nature and also talking about, you know, density and solidarity and then design and experiments and in that respect. So I feel like it's a definitely doing science. And we're definitely attacking a social issue that has been plaguing the black community. So I I feel like it's something it was a good thing to do. Thanks for sharing that. Another thing that came up in the book was your name, actually. You got a personal shout out in the book for teaching about Chicago environmental activist Hazel Johnson. I'm wondering if you could give us a little more context about her story and how you use it in your classroom. Well, me and Hazel Johnson is from the same place. She was advocating for black people in the Ogil Garden housing project. And while she was advocating for people, I was enjoying science at the forest reserve that was right across the street from my house. And so the how this unit came about was so crazy because it was doing the pandemic. And I saw the implosion. Well, actually, I have been teaching. I taught APN environmental science and my school curious right down the street from the Crawford Power Plant. That was right off the expressway, the I-55 Expressway. And so I would pass that and I had students we went to actually tour it because we were actually doing a curriculum from Northwestern University. And we were looking at power plants and things of that nature. And so we actually went on a tour there and saw the power plant and how it worked. And then we also learned about little village environmental justice organization protesting because of the pollution that was coming from the power plant. And so they were protesting it and trying to get it closed down. And so then during the pandemic, they imploded the power plant, you know, doing COVID. And so I was like, oh, my God. And they had like dust. It was like people with pictures of dust all over there. It was wild. I was like, oh, my God. Why would they do that to those people? You know, and so it was crazy. So there. And I was like, you know, with that. And then the George Floyd protest, I was like, I got to I have to start teaching about this stuff. I can't just keep teaching the same stuff. Like I have to teach about this. We have you, me and my students, we have to engage this, right? And so we started engaging it and started talking about the pollution and stuff. And then talking about the chemistry of the pollution and red-ox reactions and things that add nature. And so then I went to a workshop with Danny Morales Doyle. And I was telling them that, you know, my mother, if I've always told me a story about us having to evacuate the old beer gardens because there was like a, you know, a lot of pollution and things like that. And so I was like, I was teaching my students about the Crawford power of planning the implosion, right? And so that was like, you know, what I knew because I passed it every day. And but then I told them I had that family story at the workshop with Danny Morales Doyle and the other teachers from the Youth Participatory Science Group. And I was talking to them about it. And I was like, yeah, you know, every time I look up and try to find like about the pollution in the old beer gardens, I can't really find anything. I said my mother and father, they keep telling me that it was pollution. And so I'm like, because all I remember is just being in the force was airplane with the insects. And so I'm like, where is this pollution that, you know, because I didn't know where it was. And so then when I went to that meeting, they told me, don't look up that. They were like, you need to look up Hazel Johnson. I was like, well, who was Daniel Jones? And they were like, she's a lady that was fighting for like, you know, protection for the black people out there 'cause they were getting sick and getting cancer. I was like, really? And so I looked her up and all stuff. And then they were like, you have to look up the toxic donut. And when I looked up the toxic donut, there was an image of this lady. It almost resembles the implosion that they did, the pictures that they showed of the Crawford Power Plant. This lady, it was a black lady and she was covering her face because it was like some pollution, the pollution cloud from that back then that my parents kept telling me about. So I was like, oh my God. You know how you think your parents like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause then I'm a science person. I was like, I've never heard about that. You know, whatever, you know. And so it was really cool to like get kind of verification of their story about what was happening. And then a woman, you know, in a picture, and I was like, oh, this is same stuff. This was in the 1970s. This is like, now, you know, and they did the same thing. The same things are happening, right? So then I incorporated, I had already started talking about the Crawford Pollution Power Plant stuff. And so then I incorporated Hazel Johnson, 'cause I started reading about her and found out that she's called the mother of the environmental justice movement. And then I started thinking like, well, who are we positioning as scientists, right? Hazel Johnson didn't go to USC. She didn't venture in chemistry. But she was just a concern citizen, right? And she was, you know, just trying to figure out what was happening in her community. And she was, you know, collecting data, right? She was collecting data and analyzing it. And so I think that that was really the moment. I was just like, well, this is awesome, you know, to teach students about this. And then using, I call it the good and the bad Redox reactions, you know, it's been really good. It's been really exciting. And then to cap it off, I actually submitted that unit for the presidential award. And so what I became a finalist, I'm a state finalist still in waiting since 2021. I was like, you know, that kind of like also helped to confirm that, you know, teaching about, you know, these social justice science issues, it's teachings, you're still teaching science, right? High-level science. I felt really good to be honored by the state, you know, as a finalist and being selected. And so that really kind of solidified it for me that I was probably doing the right thing. That's amazing. I think hearing both of the examples that you shared, you're noticing things that are happening around you, connecting them to stories that you've heard or conversations that you've had. I'm wondering what advice do you have for teachers who want to start teaching in this way, drawing on resources that are planted in the place where their students live, but don't know where to start? Well, I think my advice to people is, Google is your best friend, right? So there's nothing holding you back from doing a Google search 'cause it's just a thing, right? So if you're cooking a meal, right? And you're like, you know what? I haven't, I'm not a cook, right? I'm not in the kitchen, right? But if I had to figure out how to make some teriyaki chicken and I had no idea, then I would start with Google, right? So I can look at Google and kind of do an investigation, but I also have to be willing to learn, right? So I have to be willing to learn or to teach or learn. And so that's, I think that's where a lot of people, some people are like, do you have like this reservoir of social sciences that we can do? And I don't have a reservoir, but I do use Google when I have an idea, and then I talk to people about it. And so I think that it's just regular preparation for a lesson, and then you just, you have to value and think about the communities, right? That you're living and working in. And so I think that that kind of helps out a little bit more because sometimes you might even hear students talk about things that might be something to investigate or learn about. But there's no magic pill to give people to start with. I think it's a journey for you as an individual too. Because like I told you, I didn't know like about Hazel Johnson, someone, I told them that I had been looking at environmental racism and pollution in Chicago. And they told me her name, and then I Googled it, right? So it wasn't something, you know what I'm saying? That it wasn't no magic way. Then with the density stuff, I just wanted a way to teach the density difference. So I just started googling. And the American Chemical Society had article about Dr. Charles Drew that they had wrote about what he had done. So I could really understand it better. And then in the Smithsonian African-American history museum, they also have lessons about it. So I think it's just you as a teacher, you're like in your own way that you got to get out of. And so you would have to want to think about it in a different way, I guess. And then say, it's okay to do it. 'Cause a lot of people sometimes they'll be like, well, I don't know if that's the old science. You know what you're doing? I'm like, are you kidding me? We're making bottles. My kids can explain the periodic table to you to transit everything, right? They can do all that. But they're just talking about it from a local experience that they had, something that they can actually explain to you. And it's not some far away thing with something that they have no idea about, right? So it also gives students a way into science and gives them a way to talk about their communities instead of some far away community that they've never heard of. To kind of get them into thinking about the science that's happening and their neighborhoods. You know, so I think that that's, you know, how I kind of think about it. And just even this summer, teaching the teachers, it was, you know, some pushback. And so then once a one teacher actually found something, she go, she, she, she, she, she, she was thinking about some stuff and she go with it. And she found something that she's like, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. You know, or I didn't know about this, you know? And so then she's now learning too, right? About the same thing. And then her students are going to be able to talk about it too. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, it's not where she's just, you know, that all this science in her head and she's able to like regurgitate it to her students or this modeling or a strict storyline and she's modeling. Does she's going to be like, I'm revived. Every time I do something, I'm like something happens at school or some other person finds something and then we change it again, just being willing to change stuff out. And so I think that that's, that's good. And then just valuing the social justice science issue because a lot of times people are like, well, that's like history or something, you know? Why are we learning this? When we go learn some science, you know? So just kind of demystifying that and really focusing in on the science that the people are doing. Like Hazel Johnson, I feel like she was doing science, right? But other people are like, well, she didn't get trained and did analysis, you know? (laughs) But she put, she put some stuff together. And she went to the EPA, you know? She did what she had to do. And then do we value that in science and the science community? Like will we value what she did in science? And then how do we shift students to thinking that they are, you know, understanding science is something that, you know, just scientific literacy is something that we need to like understand, not just to be going into a science field. So I think that that's how I kind of think about it. - Well, I love about what you just said is we're crediting scientific value to people who aren't like trained scientists and going back to your stories earlier where you're talking about listening to your principal, talking to other, like even listening to your students who've lived in the community, like you start to pick up stuff, you don't necessarily pick up elsewhere. I guess to borrow on your recipe analogy, I love that. I think of it, like I'm kind of thinking like, well, not only like you want to make chicken teriyaki and not only do you like Google it, you might talk to people you know who you know cook a lot, you know, cook things like chicken teriyaki so they got some expertise and they might be like, well, you want chicken teriyaki, you actually want this other thing that's even better. - Yeah, even makeup, like I don't wear makeup, right? But I could probably Google had to put makeup on, right? Or watch a TikTok video, so it's like even using our AI, right? So you can use Chad GPT, you can ask Chad GPT, he could say, hey, what's some social justice science issues that are happening in my community? I live in Chicago, right? To see if it brings up any ideas that you can research. But it's not this thing that you can like, there's no reservoir of issues, right? And you can just see how even in the book, how Danny unfolds, how he came into some of the topics that he taught, right? So I think that that's, you know, something too. And then it's like also our beliefs about things, you know, teachers, we have deep beliefs that we come into teaching with that we try to say we're being objective. And so I think that that's something that we have to deal with. And the drug lesson that he talks about, that he does. I've learned about that lesson, you know, years ago, and I based off of me, growing up and saying no to drugs, I just, I just didn't, I was like, I cannot teach about drugs in my class, right? And I was like, I just can't do it. Like, I remember the say no to drugs, video, they were like, this is, this is, this is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. I don't know if you've ever seen this. And they give you the ribbons, yeah. That's what I grew up to. So I'm like, yeah, Danny, that's great that you're talking about cocaine and taking the molar mass of cocaine and marijuana. It used in the mass spec. I was like, that's wonderful. I can't do it. Like, I couldn't do it for a while. Like, I learned about it. But I was just like, you know, it was hard, right? To like reconcile it. And so then I was like, I'm gonna teach them about this, you know? So I got past that. But it took some time for me to get past it. So it's not like a automatic. Like, you don't just jump in the deep end. I think that depends on who you are as a person and what convictions you have about things. It may be, you know, it may be easier for you to teach one part of it and other parts. It may be a little bit more difficult, right? And so it took me a while before I was like doing that. And then the other units, it's me. I started those. I was like, let me get into this, right? And then I joined other people, but then the drug unit was something that I heard about. And then it started happening. Like, they started making marijuana legal. So they're like, you know, because it's been like people have been arrested and going to jail for black people. And let's say, you know, I'm like, this is so, this is horrible, right? So now all of a sudden, it's good, right? You know, it was like that, that the contradiction that happens. And so it really, that's like one of the years, the kids. But they do the both of us. They're like, we, they're into it, right? It's not just the molar mass of something that they don't know about. They actually know like, what it is. And so it makes it the conversations are easy conversations, you know, you're not to say that, you know, because I teach students that it's easy. It's just like a way, it's a it's better than talking about like copper chloride, right? So we're going to do the molar mass of copper copper to chloride. It's better to say, I need you to understand how to calculate the molar mass because this is, it's better than this, right? Let's think about when you go to the airport and they're using that mass spec, right? Let's think about when you take your urine test for your job. Let's think about you understanding the science behind that stuff so that you'll be able to counter people if they try to say that you're, you know, you're using these drugs and you're not because the molar masses of some of these drugs are really close to each other. You know, this we watched this video of a lady, she lives in Atlanta and they fired her twice from her job because she kept testing positive for THC and she didn't, she's never smoked marijuana but then she had to reveal that she was taking a medication called a tripla and it has a similar molar mass to THC. So a tripla is a medication for HIV and so she had to go to the news media to get help and also disclose her personal business about HIV and so the kids, I asked them at the beginning and I'm like, do you guys think that you should have to do drug test for a job? And everybody's like, yes! Some kids are like, wait a minute, I don't know. But then after we start really thinking about it, it's really hazy. Like how can we approach this? There's no right or wrong answer for it. And so it just provides like a different way to kind of talk about molar mass and stoichiometry with the students. So, you know, I think it's making it more exciting for me too because I'm a lot bored. I love that. And you got a lot going on, right? You're working on your PhD. You have a podcast to pushing praxis. We'll put that in the show notes. I guess like what's one thing this next school year that you really hope to focus on in your practice? Well, I would say having more empathy for students and just listening to them more because, you know, I'm 51, right? So, you know, I'm learning that they do know what they're talking about sometimes and to like really listen to them and give them that time and that space to listen to how they feel about things because I just found even this past school year. Sometimes, you know, as teachers, you know, when kids are like, well, asking questions about some things, you might take it as a, like, attack or whatever, right? And so I'm thinking that I, I learned a couple of times this past school year that, you know, students are like trying to attack you when they're asking some questions, you know, they're actually showing you that your test is flawed. They're like, this like, what is this on there? So, I can write about this. You know, I'm like, yes, it should be on a damn. You know, so it's like just, you know, listening to them more and in the empathetic way and not a juggie way, like, oh, God, what does she raise her hand, what now? You know, so just really, really listening because, you know, like in science, it's like you're the authority, you know, in the room. And so sometimes, you have to like really, are you really giving students agency to like challenge what's happening? Because my students, they were like, well, why don't they, why, why don't they make when you any electrons negative and when you lose them positive? That's the most ridiculous thing ever. Instead of like me, me like, well, science said it, you know, I'm like, you know what, there was a reason why, but I said that, you know, if you get some evidence or some stuff to challenge the science and community on this, you know, you could do it. Instead of me like, you know, dismissing their comments about things, because just like they're learning their processing it, they're like, I understand what it means, but I'm wondering why, like, can they question why did they put it like that? What's the reason in behind us? And instead of giving them this sciencey response, I was like, you right, I don't know why, you know, they did that, but I'm sure there's a reason, you know, that we could probably look up. And if somebody wants to look it up and come back tomorrow and tell us, you know, you can tell, you know, just giving them the opportunity to like, kind of push back on the scientific community. I think that that's really good to do that. And just listening more, and then pushing back on me too, you know, because I'm a, you know, authority figure in the class, so just giving them an opportunity to be able to push back and not feel like I'm going to shut them down about how they're thinking about things. It sounds like you're also giving them practice finding out stuff about the world in a similar way that you are when you're finding ideas to make these units by like hearing about something and then looking it up and doing your own research and talking to people. And I think that's sometimes something we don't give students an opportunity to do. And you're creating a place for them to do it and practice it. And I think that's awesome skill that they're going to need in their future. Yeah, yeah, it's like you, you're one of the NGSS practices about communication, right? And so when do you teach that to them? If they can't even push back on you as a teacher, how are they going to be talking to other students and telling them the ideas and what evidence they have and things of that nature? If they're, you're not even really having conversations with them or like stepping back and not taking it as a personal attack and being like, you know, so-and-so is on the line for asking me about chemistry. Like, no, they can ask you about chemistry. It's okay, you know, to ask me about it. And why has it done like that? Why do we have to do it like this? And it's just explaining to them that people decided it. This is all social, socially made and constructed, right? And so they decided that these are the elements, right? that we're working from. And the people that discovered them, you know, they put them in certain places. They have certain, you know, properties and things of that nature. And they, a lot of the questions are like, those, well, why? You know, and then they're, you know, they're like, you know, look and be like, okay, you know, we'll take this up. But it's just giving them that room to ask why? I think that that's really something. Now, you can't let the whole day go by, but you definitely want to give the room for them to be able to ask you stuff that that may not be a part of the storyline for say. As we wrap up here, I want to touch on one thing you mentioned earlier that you submitted the unit that you talked about for the president's award, the, the paymist. And you were a finalist in 2021. Yeah, I still think that, you know, even that was really, you know, a good experience for me to like, like, tape my class and like reflect, because I think most times teachers aren't taping their class, right? So let's you're doing national boards. And I was like, I'm not doing that national board. You know, I'm not doing that, but just doing this process. It's, you know, I was like, wow, this is really neat to like look at the video footage and like write about it and they kind of seen the kind of stuff that you can reflect on in the lesson and where you could go from that. So I think it was pretty rewarding to like, like, put it all together. It's kind of like you're putting your teaching life together in a sense. And you're like, wait a minute, I've done some really good things here, you know, over this long, please, longer years of teaching, you know, because I'm like, I watched a high altitude balloon, you know, with Dr. B. went to this from DePaul University and my chemistry students. So I've done some things. My students really did well on the IB exam. I got a college credit, designing their own experiments and stuff. So it's like when you do the award, it's like the application. It's kind of like a, you know, you're compiling your teaching career and to this document. If you're just like, wow. And then I feel like when I was doing it, you know how like you're filling out things and you're like, well, I'm going to fill it out and send it in. But I got to the point where I was like, wow, this is like really me like, I fit this, I fit this award like I fit it. But I submitted it. I was like, I really fit this because, you know, the all the different aspects that they require you to fill out. I was like, I've done that. I've got outside tests to say that my students really learned, you know, this science and, you know, students actually would write, you know, your recommendation letter. So you have to have like somebody write your recommendation letters, you know, you got to take your class, you got to reflect on your lesson. So I think the experience itself is really rewarding because you now have a catalog of all the things you've done in your teaching to that point. Then you know, when you submit it. So I think it's a rewarding experience. And you know, whoever is the national awardee for Illinois, even if I'm not the national awardee, it still was a good experience to have. And to be as, you know, a state finalist for 2021. And I would recommend it to any teacher to like complete it. And it's really, they don't really do it in Illinois. Like, they don't really talk about it a lot, you know, it's kind of like, because I had never heard of it. When they were like, you were nominated for this. I'm like, who nominate me? And so I was like, this is really cool. And I think like a lot of teachers could fit the bill for the award and Chicago Public Schools. Because I was looking and it's like, not a lot of Chicago Public Schools teachers that have went forward and won, but Illinois teachers of course have won it. But I really highly recommend it for the Chicago Public Schools teachers to complete it. They do primary elementary and then the next year, they do middle school and high school teachers. They cannot, you know, switch out. So I would recommend it to whoever. And it doesn't have to be like, I'm like a 20 something plus year veteran teacher. The other teachers have done it too and they hadn't taught that long, you know, but just kind of keeping that with feeling accomplished. Like I think that helps you feel like you've actually done something. And so it's pretty, it's a pretty good feeling. That's awesome. I think having that like sense of accomplishment in yourself is really, really a powerful feeling to move forward with. And I think that we don't take us as teachers as a community. I don't think we take enough time to really like reflect back on what we've done and feel good about it. We just kind of move on to the next thing. So I'm glad that you got some sense of ownership of all the things that you've done over the years through that process. Yeah. And one of the students from that class, she graduated the previous year. Not this school year. And I didn't really know her because they were mad and stuff. So, you know, and some of them were virtual. And so she was like, you don't know me. She was sitting in the lunchroom and I was walking past. She was like, you don't know me. But you probably know my voice more. But I just wanted to let you know that, you know, we were doing those lessons and we were talking about the environmental racism and environmental stuff and the elements. I've been using that on all my college applications. You know, to go to these schools. And so then she was like, I'm going to major in environmental science. I was like, you know, just to hear stories like that. Like a solicited story. Like, I was like, wow, that was great. You know, just to, you know, for students to tell you that she, you know, like she said, it's like those kids from the pandemic, you know, doing that time when it was really crazy. You just felt like you were teaching, but you didn't know what was happening really. And so just to see, because I probably felt like I was the worst teacher ever doing the pandemic. But it's like that. Let me know that it didn't all go down in flames during those, those years of virtual and in hybrid and all of that stuff. So it's, you know, pretty good. Well, Nana, thank you so much. This is an amazing conversation. It was great to meet you and talk to you. And good luck on your new school year starting so soon. Yes. Yeah. Thanks a lot. You can follow us @sciadpod on Instagram and Twitter. Our music is Rainbows by Scott Buckley. (upbeat music)