How can a LOVING God send people to HELL!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

People don't have any problem saying that people convicted of a crime should go to jail, but they freak out when you talk about somebody this guilty of a sin going to help. This is justice, man. Religion without repentance is dangerous again, literally cost you your eternity. Satan wants to like anesthetize us to the reality of hell, so that we will no longer have an urgency of evangelism to tell people about Jesus. Well, hey, Lifree Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Lifree Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world, so if you've been watching and thinking, "Man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is joining us for Church Online." Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform, and it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend, and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Lifree Podcast. Oh, we're not? Oh, okay, well, my name is Carlos Arazzo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Alberton, and Pastor Paul Cunningham. Coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas, and today, things will get heated. Oh, I see what he did there. Great dad joke. Big heads up. We're going to be talking about misconceptions about hell. Yeah. What about the Catholic belief in purgatory? Whoops. What are the. What's Abraham's bosom and Hades that the New Testament refers to that are different places in heaven and hell? Which, by the way, they are. Yes. Well, I want to know more about that. Do people who never hear the gospel go to hell, and how Josh wants to leverage this podcast to flip an election? Pastor Josh, what is going on? Well, we're going to. Can I play the Trump clip? Oh, yeah, we're going to. That's what we were laughing at. So this is what we were laughing about when the episode started. This has no educational value whatsoever. It does have humor value. I'm playing this. So we were. This is an actual clip today, all right? So when I'm getting ready to play, they didn't know I was going to do this. This is the Japanese Prime Minister in the Oval Office with the President of the United States. And this exchange happens. It's a very good friend, but one question. Why didn't you tell US allies in Europe and Asia, like Japan, about the war before attacking Iran? So he's going, "Hey, man, you guys surprised us with striking Iran." All right, now wait. He's like, "Why did you do that? You should be in Japan and you guys were allies." I don't watch this. We are very confused about. we definitely see. Well, one thing you don't want to signal to your country. You know, when we go in, we went in very hard. And we didn't tell anybody about it because we wanted surprise. Who knows better about surprise than Japan? Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor, okay? My grandpa, Hemingway, who's 96, he's been waiting 70 years for that joke. Luz and I'll care who you are. That's funny. That's pretty funny. That's pretty funny. That's funny. What were we talking about? We were talking about health. Yes. And speaking of health. Oh, no, flip an election. Oh, that's right. That's right. Okay, for real, we're going to do this. We're going to embark on a journey on live-free. So here's what we're going to do. This stupid little podcast has a large enough listenership. I'm starting to realize like we could actually. We could leverage it. Live-free nation is a real deal. So here's what's happening. Will you pull up that. Will you pull up that Texas midterm election where this stands right now? So we've hit this like twice in the podcast. James Tellerico. synagogue of Satan. Guys like a literal actual biblically defined heretic. Like actual heretic that is democratic candidate running in Texas. Right now, check this out in Texas. Let me say it one more time. Poster dramatic effect in Texas. James Tellerico. God is non-binary. There are six genders with a mask on his face. Doing the whole. My administration has committed to not eating meat because it's bad for the environment. That guy is currently right now. Let me pause. This is serious. Is currently leading. Leading, in polling leading up to the midterms in Texas. Over both of the potential conservative candidates. So you're talking about a dude, this like radical trans-gender ideology, socialism light, all the things. Like he's just. He's an actual heretic. So here's the deal. Some people. This may not be some people's cup of tea. We love you and we don't care. So what I would say is. I just want to remind us why we're going to do this. I'm going to tell you what we're going to do. You guys. You guys actually, I don't think know all of this right now. Here's the deal. I'm going to keep saying this. People like, "Hey Josh, you know, stay out of politics." No. Because all we're doing is taking the Bible and applying it to every area of our lives. There is not one square inch of the universe over which Christ does not stand and cry mine. Okay. So the deal is. Let me remind us, live free nation. If godly people don't step into this arena, then godless people will. Right now, 40 million. I'm going to pause and just say this. 40 million. Bible-believing Christians don't vote in presidential elections. Let me just pause and just say, we had a presidential election a few years ago that was decided by less than one million votes. And 40 million Bible-believing Christians sat out that election. A tiny fraction even of that vote in midterm elections. So here's the old Satan doesn't stand of politics. So, team Jesus should not. We are commanded to be the salt of the. Not the salt of the church. The salt of the earth is what we're supposed to do. We're going to step into this and literally, we're going to make this little theme run up. We won't. It's not going to dominate the podcast. That's not what to do. But I want to leverage live free nation to activate Christians into actually stepping into being the salt of the earth and not letting morally disproportionately degraded policies get enacted in your state. And very frankly, my bigger play is if we can do it and actually leverage something, that's going to send a signal to other churches in America like, wait, we can actually win. So it's that rocky for a moment. He's got a bad guy. You know, I want to do that, okay? I'm a fan of rock and roll. I was really nervous. I don't know that I recognized the quote, but I definitely think it's the turning point. It's even right. Yes, the turning point of the fight. Yeah, okay. So it's a fight. It's a fight. Nobody thinks Rocky can win. Got it. And then he gets the right. It's a left hook on Ivan Drago. He cuts him. And I'm like, he's got it. He's got it. It's a bad cut. I didn't realize that. He's not a machine. That's a man. Okay, so let's wait. That's it. He bleeds, that's right. So here's the deal, man. What this stuff matters because it determines the cultural inheritance we will hand to our children and our grandchildren. And it matters for the purposes of the Great Commission. We are determining now by how Christians engage in a public square. How easy or difficult it will be for the future church in America to accomplish the Great Commission. And again, it's like super awkward and uncomfortable. It's kind of thing like people don't like it when pastors say it. It's just a reality. Everywhere that progressive policies advance in cities and states. Those are the places with the fewest churches. It becomes very, very hard for churches to get built and grow in advance in those regions. Obviously, nothing's outside of the power of God. I'm just saying for me, human personality gets really difficult. So as a dad, I'll be honest, here's what I'm unwilling to do. I'm unwilling for my kids to have to live in a much harder world where it's much harder to be a Christian. And then then look back and go, "Why did my dad try to do something about it?" I'm just not going to do that. And I'm not going to do it for the sake of future. So here's what we're doing, man. Live free nation. We're going to do this. We're going to try to flip over. We're going to try to flip the legacy. An election. Right now, it's not up yet. I got a guy, a buddy of mine, this working on building a very, very simple website where somebody can text. I think we're going to have it where they text either vote or salt. Stay tuned to a number. It will send anybody you send that to to a website. What all somebody's got to do is they're going to put in their home address and it will automatically spit out to them voting locations and dates. That's it. And then we're just going to try to make that thing go viral. And then especially pastors, because pastors a lot of times, like, dude, I don't know how to do this without like split my church and feeling really awkward. It's actually really easy. You don't even need to tell your people who to vote for right there. Honestly, you just need to get them to vote. And spirit filled Christians will generally do the right thing. Yes. So honestly, man, we're just, let's see what you do. Live free nation. Let's see if we can flip an election. Wow. Okay. So stay tuned. Morning for coming soon. Well, first of all, you can comment all of the angry. You hate this comments on YouTube and help our algorithm. There you go. There you go. Pastor Josh, we missed you last episode. Man, welcome back. We missed you. Man, I love you. How was it this day trip? You know, it was so good that I. I didn't miss you. - Oh, well, they're good. - Okay, I didn't go to Disney. - Oh, wait, wait, what? - We were at Universal. - Who said that? Okay, okay. - Yeah, but then I said last time you were joking. - Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. - Well, how was Universal? - Oh, I was the best. - Okay. - Well, we're Universal. People, man, it's, you know, there's-- - Not Universalism. - But we're gonna talk about that. - That's right, that's right, we're gonna go ahead. - I'm gonna do, we had a great time. The best, the chase, the best time is at the end of every day. I would do this thing where it's like, okay, girls, you can torch your dad now. And I would ride any ride they wanted. So then, you know, it's like every ride that gets you soaked. - Dead in the front, you gotta sit in front, dad. - Yeah, I'm walking around the park, you know, totally soaked, or Eliana is whatever goes fast. Like, she's, dude, she does that, the doom drop thing. - Oh, that's wild. - That's wild. - It just drops you, she loves that stuff. - You like that stuff? - I hate it. - So she pulled me on, the biggest coaches I got a Velocicoaster and the Hulk. And she had me whipping all over the place. And I'm 42, man, I feel that now. - Sure, back okay. - No, that was awesome, man. - That's amazing. - It was great. - Hey, y'all did a good job last week. - Hey, man. - Good a good job, talk about Nephilim and it's great, dude. - Thank you, thank you for watching. - Yeah, it's great. - Hey, Easter was coming up in a couple of weeks here at Lake Point to make deal April 3rd to fifth. Eight campuses here in the DFW area. Big celebration, Resurrection of Jesus, Pastor Josh. Would you invite our Liberation to come hang out? - You crazy if you don't come. So if you were ever gonna come to an in-person service come at Easter, it's gonna be 200 proof Jesus gospel. We're gonna worship our faces off. It's gonna be a big, big dang celebration. And honestly, man, if you're not a church dude yet, like, you know what, man, just dip your toe in the water. It's gonna get on you. And this is your spot, man. This is where you wanna be. It's like, these are like our Super Bowl, they're like my favorite services of the year. - And so if you're part of the Liberation and you come visit us in person, please come say hi. Find us at our first time guest tent. We gotta free merch for you. - Bro, we're giving away tons of those sets. - By the way. - Tons. - Bro, we have people visiting from like, literally outside of the US. - Oh, stupid, yeah. - Do you got this? Okay, we'll do this real quick. And then we're gonna talk about L. - That's right. - So, yeah, so, okay, so this is last week. So do this couple, grab me in the lobby this week. They flew in from Switzerland. - What? - Yeah, they're listening to live free ever in Switzerland. So here's what's starting to happen, dude. You know, as the, you know, first of all, shout out, live free nation. This podcast, I think we're over 8 million downloads at this point. So what's starting to happen now is people in these, you know, more godless city states regions. Like, dude, it brought tears to my eyes. This family, they were telling, they were explaining to me, hey, we listen to our family live free every week. So shout out to y'all, to David and Jana. Her name's Jana, I like that. And they were like, hey man, man, we listen to you. And we're Christians in a country. It's not very Christian. They're like, it helps us remember we're not crazy. - Wow. - And it puts courage in them. So hit that. Who's the other one? - We got the other one. Yes, Jordan came in from Hawaii. - Hawaii. - John out, live free nation. Hawaii flew into worship with us. - We got another one. - This one, they were from the British Columbia. They said the same thing. They were like, hey man, Canada's going nuts right now. British Columbia area and same thing. It's like, man, listen to you. It helps us remember. We don't, we're not crazy kind of thing. And this was my favorite one. So this dude, shout out Stan. Let me get you to shout out Stan. Stan flew in from Canada, crushing it as businessmen, owns a big old ranch up there. He started four businesses. Christian dude in Canada, lives in the like the wilderness of Canada on a 500 acre ranch, if I remember right. This guy, Stan, he starts listen to some of our stuff online. And he converts, this is legit, man. He showed me a picture. He converts his barn into a video venue, little 100-seat worship thing, because there's not like a good Bible preaching church close by, I'll find or stand correctly. And he starts a house church with some of our online content. So they'll play our stuff. Isn't he just starts a little pop-up Blake Point campus in Canada. - Canada, that's awesome. - You know, he's-- - Blake Point, Canada. - Blake Point, Canada. And he's playing our stuff, listen to Live Free. And this guy, they baptized four people last week at his little ranch house church. And then when we did the whole marriage thing, we're like, hey, if you're shacking up and you're acting like you're in a covenant when you're not in a covenant yet, you need to get married and honor Jesus. They did it. And somebody in their house church was like, we're getting married. - No way. - So shout out to Stan. - That's a call man. - It was legit, man. - It was legit, man. - That's amazing. Honestly, in the comment section as well, we have people from India and South Africa. - Yeah, if you're listening to Hever YouTube and tell us where you're listening from in the comment section, that actually helps us know what's going on. And there's some things we do to sort of use that data. That'd be awesome. - Shout out to last week's Giveaway winner, Carson Johnson. And he won. - He's a bowling green kid. - Who? - Yes, he's a bowling green kid. - Yes, he responded to who did it better. McDonald's CEO or Pastor Josh, Pastor Josh, you were selected by most people. - Run away though. - Not surprised. And so to comment on this week's Giveaway text, not text comment on YouTube or Spotify or the word hat. We'd love to give some free merch. Also, if you want to purchase a hat, go to lifre.shop or text the word hat to 20411. We've already sold over 1,000 hats, by the way. - That's awesome. - We've got some. - I ran into no joke. I think I would conservatively estimate we ran into 40 people at Universal, who we ran into some people at a 10 like point in person and that a bunch of livery nation folks. Like I'm conservatively guessing 40. - That's cool. - 'Cause it was a bunch of families that kept running up to us. - So wild, man. - In fact, a little last thing and let's talk about hell. This is, by the way, this can be a very spicy episode for people who are listening and that's not a joke. And we're gonna answer, there's a ton of misconceptions about hell that very frankly, most Christians believe wrong things about hell and they have no idea they believe wrong things. We're also gonna get into some of the Catholicism purgatory stuff that's actually kind of a big deal. - Yeah, it is. - What was that talking about? - Oh, I was on the Hulk. It's like the fastest roller coaster at Universal. And so like we finish and I'm not a profanity guy and I did not cuss on the ride. And when I was done, I was very glad that I did it 'cause we finish and the guy DC in front of me turns around and he goes, "Pastor Josh, we listen to livery." - And you know. - That's amazing. - It was awesome. - That's awesome. - Okay, to find out daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon plus an early release of the livery podcast plus, our discipleship guide with extra resources for you to use for your life group. Download the Lake Point church app, text store it up to 2-0 for one one or go to Apple or Google Play Store. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you. - I will allow it. - What did it make to the sermon? - All right, this is a lot. So let me do this fast because this week in investigating Jesus, we're asking the question, what did Jesus say about hell in the afterlife? We did the Luke passage about Lazarus and the rich man. It's Luke 16. What you got, by the way, a lot of people miss this up, different Lazarus than the one he raised in the dead. A lot of people don't, they miss that. So let me do a few things. This is the exact type of passage that makes me really glad we got this podcast 'cause there is a ton that did not make it in here. So a few things real quick. First of all, Catholic especially. You're probably like, rich man Lazarus, that's not what I've heard it called. Traditionally, especially in Catholic circles, this is the parable that will get called the parable of dives and Lazarus. A little interesting, a little fun fact there. Tradition, a church history later started calling the rich man dives. It's the Latin word for rich man from the Latin vulgate. So a lot of Catholics think the dude's name was dives. That's not what it is. It's just the Latin vulgate for a rich man. So this is where this comes from. Now in this parable, Jesus talks pretty extensively, obviously, actually he's not talking about hell. He's talking about two places that he refers to as Abraham's bosom and Hades, that a lot of people think he's talking about heaven and hell and he's not, he's actually talking about something that theologians have historically called the intermediate state, that very frankly, most Christians don't know anything about. So I'm gonna explain this here in a second, that it's actually kind of important, but it has implications about hell in particular. So I do just wanna say this. Jesus talked about hell two times more than any other Bible author, roughly 13% of Jesus teaching references or is about hell, punishment, judgment. Half, this is shocking to me. I came across this in prep. Half of Jesus parables are references about hell now. Here's something, this is the kind of thing I touched on this. I didn't have time to deep down, but will you go and pull up that first picture? So we'll confuse a lot of Christians and there's some misconceptions about this. 11 times in the gospels, the word that gets translated as hell is the Greek word Gehenna. And a lot of Christians have heard this first part, but they don't know the second part. The Gehenna, this Gehenna is a Greek word that is, it refers to something called the Valley of Ben Hinam, this right outside of Jerusalem. Paul, have you been, oh, that's right. He has not yet. (laughing) One day, one, that's not, he's not been. - A joke's played. - No, I'm sure that whatever it is that you're gonna tell it's gonna be amazing. - It is, whatever you've said. Yeah, if I'd have seen it in person, I'm sure right now my mind looks like this. - You're a mind of people. - Paul, there's a photo right there. You probably appreciate it. - Oh, this is the closest thing I've ever seen. - I'm sure it's the exact same as seeing it in person. Yeah. All right, so what's the great photo by the way? - We know. And Jesus, 11 times uses the word Gihanna. He's referring to this spot right here. You'll see right there. So you've got the Kidron Valley over there. If you look up at the back, there's the Mount of Olives. That's where Jesus ascended into heaven. That's the, and then the book of Zechariah says this feet will touch that place. I think when he returns. And then this is important, Paul, especially for you. (laughing) If you look at the left, there's a little arrow there that place to Jerusalem that you imagine it. That you haven't seen. - No, I'm visual. - Now, right outside of Jerusalem, when you look over the walls is this spot, the Hennon Valley. Now, let me explain why Jesus, 11 times when he's talking about hell uses Gihanna. So this is a little, like you got to really be a theology nerd to understand what's going on here. If you go back to Genesis 32, 35, it's I think the Bible's first mention of the Valley of Ben Hennon. What do you laugh at? - I was just trying to take my blood from going out. Go ahead, we need to get, we got it. - We got it, we got it. - So here's what it says. They built the high places of Bale in the Valley of the sun of Hennon. So Ben is just the Hebrew word for son of, so it's translation. Valley of Ben Hennon, this is important. To offer up their sons and daughters to Molek, though I did not command them nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination. Now, this is really gross, but it actually is important. When this says they were offering up their sons and daughters to Molek, what they would literally do is, Molek was a demonic false god in the Old Testament. And when they were worshipping what they would do, is they would cast a, if I understand it correctly, they would cast a graven image of this demon god, Molek, and very often what they would do is they would cast it in bronze with a big hole in the belly of the Molek idol. And then they would, they would put fire in there that they would heat it up towards, it was glowing ember red. And then it's very gross and demonic in order to make a sacrifice to this god, they would literally take newborn infants and burn them, put them in this scalding bronze and burn them alive. Okay. So, and where was this happening? The Valley of Ben Hennon. Okay, so bookmark that in your head. Now, you fast forward a few hundred years, you get to second Kings 23. All this is gonna make sense what Jesus is doing here in a second. You fast forward to second Kings 23. Josiah comes, you remember he's a little, he's a young king, discovered the book of the law, leads the nation in national revival. He comes along and that is still happening. So these detestable pagan demonic gross practices that we still do in America, we just call it abortion. They were doing this still in the Valley of Ben Hennon. So then this is what he did. Listen to this verse, second Kings 23. During King Josiah's reforms, he and it uses the word defiled. Some translations say desecrated or profaned. Nobody knows exactly what this means. He defiled Tofeth, which is in the Valley of Ben Hennon so that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering a mole like now. If you go check out Bible side, I do a little deep dive this week. If you go check out Bible scholars and you ask, okay, what did he do? Nobody knows. All they know is he did something that was so disgusting to holiness that he ensured no one would ever worship there ever again. Okay, so some people are like, he made it ceremonial and according to the Old Testament law, some people say that what he probably did is he scattered human bones, dead bodies, graves there because according to Leviticus, you can't be around that kind of thing here, a Jewish person. All they know is he profaned that valley so much that no one could ever use it as a place of worship or sacrifice ever again. So then there was a development that happened here and there are some, this is actually a little debated but I'm gonna say it anyway. There are some testimonies that eventually, because of that, everybody stopped going there. It's right outside of the walls and there are some testimonies that it became like a garbage heap or a dump where people would cast dead bodies, anything that was ceremonially unclean that would just toss it in that little valley, a human excrement that we take out there, a trash, all that kind of thing. Now, I wanna show you again from a different angle and I'm gonna show you something here that the valley had been, and I'm sure that second picture. So what I want you to notice is, it's a janky pixelated picture but you can see in the back left of the picture, that's Mount Mariah and that gold dome is the dome of the rock. That's where all oxa, the Muslim mosque, it's actually a holy place. Muslim holy place, this right right there, that's where the temple was. So it's in the middle of Jerusalem. Now notice in the valley had been hit on to this day, no homes, no sidewalks, no dwelling places whatsoever. No one to this day will build a home in Gehenna because thousands of years ago, Josiah desecrated and defiled it and to this day Jewish people are like, that is a no-go zone. So think about this, it's a place that's unholy. There's no worship and no manifest presence of God is condemned forever and there was fires and death there and Jesus is going, it's like that. - Yeah, yeah, wow. - Whatever hell is, it's like that. So we may get into, probably at least some of the language of the Bible that talks about hell is probably metaphorical. We know that, I'm gonna give a reason we know that. We know that because for instance, it talks about hell as a place of quote utter darkness but it also talks about hell as a place of eternal fire. - Yeah. - Well, hey, you know, if there's a bunch of fire there, how's it dark? So we at least know in some sense it's a metaphor but I will say this, if it's a metaphor, typically with a metaphor, the metaphor points to something even greater. - Yes. - So there you have it. Let me say a couple of things about this passage and then Paul, I actually want you, here's what we're gonna do in a second. I'm gonna say a few things about this passage. What I'm gonna have Paul do here in a second, is there's about, is it five? - Yeah, four or five. - Four or five, yeah. - There's four or five views that Christians have, the people who call themselves Christians have historically held when it comes to, what the Bible says about heaven hell in the afterlife, I'm gonna have Paul run through these very, hotly debated views real quick so that we can do a little theological deep dive but let me say a few things about this passage. That's working in a purgatory and stuff. One very interesting thing that this passage does and it trips up a lot of, a lot of Christians when they read it. So Jesus in this passage, he tells a whole deal about the rich man who feasted sumptuously and was in purple and fine linen. And he uses the word Hades, which is interesting because that was like in Greek, that's a Greek mythology world. And so sometimes people are like, "Huh, what's going on there?" for where that dude was. Then he talks about Lazarus who was a beggar and he uses the phrase that he was in, he used the phrase Abraham's bosom. Now this is really interesting. What's happening here, a lot of Christians have no idea this is a thing. Jesus is talking about what theologians have historically called the intermediate state. So here's the question, the final destination for believers and unbelievers is at the end when Jesus returns. He's gonna cast the devil, his angels, and unbelievers according to Romans 14 and Romans 20 into the lake of fire and that's hell. That's actual hell. But that didn't happen till Revelation 20. And then for believers, again, Revelation is 21, Revelation 21, he's gonna come and he's gonna make all things new. He's gonna actually renew the, a lot of Christians don't know this. The earth you are standing on, Texas and the Swiss Alps and the Ozarks and all the things. He's actually gonna renew this earth and he with all of us will live, rule, and reign on this earth in its renewed state. But that's heaven. Now that doesn't happen until the end. So here's a question. What happens to people who die? Now, what happens in the intermediate time between now and when those things happen? That's what Jesus is talking about in this passage. So check this out. First of all, this is a misconception some Christians have. There is no such thing as soul sleep. That's a doctrine some people get because the New Testament will sometimes refer as death to death as sleep. We know that there's a million passages to be absent from the bodies to be present. Lord, thief on the cross, today. Today will be with me in paradise. You will be with me in paradise. Okay, so there's no such thing as soul sleep. So here's what happens. In some sense that we don't fully understand right now. When you and you and me, if Jesus didn't return before we die, we will die and go to some place that Jesus is referring to here as Abraham's bosom. What he's doing there is it's using the, if you go read, for you Bible nerds, go read John 13, 23. It's the exact language that he uses when he describes the apostle John leaning back against his chest at a meal. And so it's Jewish language to say like, "Hey man, you're real tied up against somebody's chest and you're in a place of honor." Yes. So there's a place that our soul goes that Jesus also refers to as paradise when he's talking about to the thief on the cross that will go as soon as we die. You're right there. But that's not your final destination and that's actually not the final heaven. It's an intermediate state of bliss and no suffering and the presence of Jesus that will be in until Revelation 20, whenever that happens. And then for unbelievers, they will go to an intermediate place of suffering that is not the full suffering they'll experience tragically, referred to in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20, called in the New Testament, Jesus is referring to it as Hades. It just means the place of the dead. When you read in most translations of the Bible in the Old Testament, you're going to see a word called Shio. And there's it's actually really difficult. You could do a whole podcast just on Shio. Shio, it really just again, it just means the place of the dead. But in general, it's referring to an intermediate place of partial suffering and partial judgment that unbelievers go to for a temporary time until Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 happened. Jesus returns, cast unbelievers of the devil and satan into the lake of fire. That's the final hell. So this is an intermediate state is what's going on right here. So that's what's happening now. I'll just say this. Some people hear that and no, man, that seems mean and you know, I wouldn't have done it that way. Well, I will, I'll just say this. I'm a quote. There's an old Baptist preacher named J Vernon McGee. Paul, you probably heard it. Oh, yeah. All right. Good job. Definitely, definitely, definitely before my time. But go ahead. He was on a radio a lot when I was growing up and J Vernon McGee had a, is that this is thrown a little shade? For sure, it's on radio. I know that for a fact, definitely not a cause. Definitely not a Spotify or use it. That's for sure. Well, Jay Verde McGee on a radio hit every little interesting little voice. Stop laughing at me. That's what he, uh, Jay Verde McGee, he had this little quote. He said like this. He said, people say, well, I wouldn't have done it that way, if I was God. And Jay Verde McGee would say like this, he say, well, this is God's universe and he does thinks his way. You may have a better way, but you don't have a universe. That's fire. That's fire. That's fire. That's fire. No one intended. And from a non spiritual standpoint, I've seen these people drive on 30 and how mad they get when people just barely cut them off. So don't tell me that if you were God, you wouldn't have done it. I think you'd have actually done probably something far worse. Exactly. Right. Yeah. In your, in your prayer, I'm curious, uh, cause this passage is so rich, did you find anything about how some people think that the rich man could be Khaifas? I have, I, until you just said that now, I didn't, I, I, I have, I have heard that before. What is there like? There's a little bit of a little theory. So many people believe that that in this parable of the rich man in Lazarus, it is a, actually a prophetic satire and an indictment against the very same leaders that are plotting against Jesus in that moment. And so if you think about it, look 16, uh, the story of the rich man in Lazarus, obviously Lazarus is named number one, which is unusual because the rich man is not. And usually at the time, go ahead. Lazarus is fun fact. The only person in any parable Jesus ever told is given a proper name. That's right. Um, which is weird that the rich man wasn't because at the time, if you're powerful, you would be named. But then here's just a little bit of a reverse. Um, but this is where it gets interesting. The rich man says in the, in the parable or in the story, um, I have five brothers. Now historically, the historian Josephus would tell us about this man named Annas, who lived at the time of Jesus, who had five sons. And Annas was a high priest in a different time during the time of Jesus when he was born around that time. Paul, you can correct me on my timeline. Uh, but this family basically, again, high priest, extremely wealthy, powerful, very corrupt. They love power more than people. And they're obviously close to the Sadducees or they were Sadducees, which means that they refused to believe in the resurrection. And by the way, uh, I'm give, I'm lending more credence to this. Jesus in this thing in Luke 16, it comes right after his condemnation of the Pharisees, where he says, you guys love money. You cannot serve God of money. That's right. That's right. That's right. So he's right before. Right before. That's right. And so, uh, Annas high priest at the time early at the time of Jesus, but then during Jesus's time, um, the, at the time who, who was actually plotting to kill Jesus was Caiaphas. So he was the high priester in Jesus' trial. And in Jerusalem, you get a go to Caiaphas his house. That's right. And under his house, you can, you actually see it's a number one. We know exactly. We, you, you can see exactly where Jesus was scourged. And you, and you know, Paul, have you? Oh, he hasn't. I'm done. Every time though, every time I feel like you guys are saying something serious, and you like bring me in and like, punch me like it's the last time. So, so, so here's the plot twist. According to Josephus, Caiaphas was actually Annas son-in-law. So from Caiaphas perspective, Annas five sons were essentially his brothers. Um, and so could it be, could it be that this rich man is Caiaphas who, according to the parable, is a rich, extremely wealthy and powerful man who love money lives in luxury purple, fine linen, ignores the suffering at his gate, is connected to his father's house, which he mentions, and who also has five brothers who will also serve as powerful high priest at some point later. And he wants to warn his other five brothers about their, their corrupt lifestyle that they're living. And he says, Oh, if somebody rises from the dead, they will repent. But guess what? Uh-oh, they're sadducees. They do not believe in the resurrection. And so Abraham responds in the story. If they don't listen to Moses in the prophet, they won't be convinced even if someone actually rises from the dead. Now hold on, there's more. Fast forward. Some people think it was two weeks after Luke 16, Johnny Levin happens. Jesus goes to a man named Lazarus of Bethany and literally raises him from the dead. And what do the religious leaders do? They do not repent. They plot to kill him and Lazarus too. That's exactly what Abraham says said it was happening. It was going to happen. Now we cannot say we're certain that obviously this is just one theory, but what some people would say that there are way too many coincidences. So if this is intentional, then this parable is also a public prophetic warning to the most powerful and corrupt religious family in Israel. Bro, I'm going to, I'm going to add another layer. So when you go to Caius' house, I'm not going to make a joke, Paul. When you go to Caius' house, so the parable specifically says, Hey, this dude was right outside your gate. When you go to Caius' house, there is a gate right there. You walk to, actually, you're not supposed to go down there. I don't mind. I'm going to say that. You're not supposed to go down there. There's literally a gate right there. Like right outside the courtyard of his house, that's nuts. So it could have been that's the gate where every time he walked out of his house and this beggar dude was right there, it makes sense. It all fits. This is saying that basically his whole point is religion without repentance is dangerous again, literally cost you your eternity. Wow, geez. Anyways, we need to keep going. Yeah, let me do it. Well, it's just a piggyback. So the last thing I'll point out is this guy, his big thing is like, okay, well, he's in hell. If you're ever asking, what would somebody in hell say to you, this, you know the answer now? What they would say is, man, would you, could I play, would you please send somebody to tell them this thing's real? And you don't need, please don't go there because he's like, hey, go tell my brothers. So I will just say this man, this happens every time, you know, Carlos, you're starting to preach a little more. Paul, you've been teaching a Bible for a minute. When you teach about hell, 100% of the time you get people are like, oh man, stop. You know, let's do something encouraging. I kind of think, no, no, because in eternity nobody is going to be saying, man, I wish you talked less about hell. Now, why did you have to hurt my feelings with all that Jesus teaching about, why did you have to do it? No one's going to be saying that what there will be at eternity is millions or billions of people saying, you knew about this and you didn't do anything. You believed all this and you cared more about your church being full and everybody liking you on social media and everybody applauding you. What they're going to say is, you knew this and you didn't care about my eternity. So if you've ever wondered what somebody in hell would say to you, what they would say to you is this is real. You don't want to go here and you need to listen to the guy that's telling this parable about how not to go there. So I'll point this out and then we're going to, Paul, I want you to hit these five views here. So what I love, the gospel Luke is my favorite gospel. I like it because it's literally just a guy with a one more writing a letter to help his one more meet Jesus. So if you go back to loot one one, he writes the whole letter again, theophilus. Fun fact, the name theophilus, theo means God, filus means friend of dudes name. It was apparently a very common Roman name. It's not a Christian name actually. It's a common Roman name. It means friend of God. Luke writes the whole book going, Hey man, you want to be a friend of God? I want to tell you who he is. That's great. Let me tell you who he is. And then what he's telling me right here is one thing I want you to know is that hell is real and real people go there. So what this ought to do for every Christian when we read this is what say Satan wants to like anesthetize us to the reality of hell so that we will no longer have an urgency of evangelism to tell people about Jesus. So I'm going to finish this little section and then turn it to you. I'm going to read this quote from one of my favorite, actually probably my favorite preacher in church history. Again, I'm Charles Spurgeon. Here we go. Spurgeon road that he said is a sermon. Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions and let not one sinner go there unwarranted and unpaid for. Go get you one more. Go get you one more. Amen. Yeah. Before I hit those ears, I sometimes it helps me to think about it on my phone. I have clock function, and there's actually a few different things to do. One is a timer, and a timer counts down. It's all I like to think of every person I'm interacting with, especially people who are unbelievers, is there's an invisible clock above their heads just counting down. And for some of us, it's a week. Could be a month, could be a year, could be 70 years, but that clock is counting down. And then when it hit zero, it's over for their earthly life, as well as knowing it. And I've heard someone say that at the end of the day, where either living in the end of days, or your days are going to end. That's right. It's one of two options. But then it goes from a timer to a stopwatch. And once I click a stopwatch, it just keeps going and going. That's great. And going. And so I think with that is the urgency is knowing that everybody has a clock that is counting down. And thing is, it's even more urgent, because I can't see what that clock says. We always assume it's going to be a long time, but for many, it's not. And so to me, that drives me live with urgency, because it's, hey, one day that clock is going to change. And it's going to go a stopwatch on forever and ever and ever. That's right. And I want them to be in a place of eternal joy, not eternal English. So I just, whoo. Spurgeon, I'd quote, hit me hard. Hey, Matt, it's money. That's my, that's money. Quote. All right, Paul, walk us through real quick, because Christians, you know, there's been some, actually not a time, but some division among Christians on different views of heaven, hell, and the afterlife, especially for Catholics. Yes. So I want, what I want you to do real quick is, do we run through these four or five theological views and differentiate between them? And let's do this real quick. Well, hey, live free nation. Easter at Lake Point is coming. And we would love to celebrate with you. So no matter where you're tuning in from, we would love for you to come and join us April 3 through 5th for a powerful and uplifting service as we celebrate the life changing truth that Jesus defeated the grave. Hey, this is a moment for the whole family to come and experience hope, purpose, and the story that still changes lives today across all of our eight campuses in the DFW area. Come hang out and let's gather to explore who Jesus is and why his story still matters. Also, if you come and visit us for the very first time and you tell us you're coming from the podcast, we would love to hook you up with some live free merch. Just find us in our first time guest tent and let us know. Hey, for service times and details text award Easter to 2041 and we will see you there. You kind of started to say this. Now just I'll finish it for you because you're kind of going there, which is I'm going to give the views, but the danger me giving the views is that we could think this is like me giving an overview of views of the end times or views of our Calvinism and our minionism and hey, it's actually had a lot of representation across church history. Actually, when it comes to views of hell, there has been one utterly dominant view throughout church history. Maybe until the last 50 years and to the last 50 maybe expanding of maybe 200 years before that there was one dominant view and that is because the Bible is extremely, extremely, extremely clear. And so when we're going through this, I think we have to remember that that there are views, but two views that I'm going to give of the four have been condemned and our heresies. One is not a heresy, but it is a major error. I'm going to say the fifth one, the Catholic view, which is kind of like in a sense like a pre hell or not even a pre hell, but it's kind of almost hell adjacent view. I'm going to say that one for last. So as I'm given these, I think it's just to remember like even I hear sometimes people tell like today they'll call it the traditional view of hell. I hate that. I don't like when people do that. Because frankly, that's like me saying the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. Yes. Or the traditional divinity of Jesus. Let's just the doctrine of the Trinity. And I say that not so people don't misunderstand me when I said that is I don't say that to say if you have the wrong view of hell, you're automatically going to hell. I say that because actually for the first 1800 years of Christian history, there was more debate over the Trinity than there was over hell. Wow. There is more debate over the divinity of Jesus than there was over hell. Way more. And so I'm more just to say, hey, we got to remember this has been the dominant view. And the dominant view is the first one I'm going to give it's called eternal conscious torment. ECT for short. Really, this is the idea that all who don't repent and believe in Jesus suffer consciously forever. Eternal means that if endless eternal forever, conscious means they're aware of it. They don't cease from existence and torment in this inside of suffering. Got tons of passages literally every every this passage, this passage, the passage looks to come in this passage. And every author in the New Testament talks about this future judgment every single one. I mean, Matthew 25 Jesus who talks about hell more than anyone. By the way, the only other person to use the word Gehenna is his brother. So he Jesus is literally the only one who uses the word Gehenna, although everyone talks about this future judgment. He says this in Matthew 25, then God will say to those on his left, apart from me, you cursed and to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteousness into eternal life. In Revelation 20, which you referenced earlier about that punishment, the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the like a fire and so forth, where the beast and the false prophet were and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever eternal. It's torment, it's conscious, it's suffering. And if anyone's name was not found in the written the book of life, he was thrown into like a fire. Says the second Thessalonians 2, 6, 2, 7, this will be my last one, then I'll go to the next few. God considers it just. I did this one because it's actually because it was a hell makes God unjust. Actually, according to the Bible, hell is actually part of what makes God just not unjust. It says God considers it just to repay with the friction those who afflict you when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. So actually, according to scripture, hell is part of what makes God just not what makes him unjust. View on eternal conscious torment. That's the mainstream view that has been very unanimous for church history. I will just say we did a whole react episode on this. You get guys like Kirk Cameron, who I love. I love him and I think he's wrong. You know, it's becoming a little more popular to question that view. So I actually sick that in his show notes. We will. Yeah. So if you want to see a little react to doing now, you did a great job. Malaysianism next. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do that one next. So this one was I was going to say this for last because view to would I would not consider the hair scene. I don't think you either. I want to say it, but it is a major error. I major error. That is annihilationism or it's also known as conditionalism. This one says all who don't repent and believe in Jesus are eventually destroyed and cease to exist. So most Christian, I am the relationist would say, Hey, there is a hell. People go there who don't believe in Jesus. But once they have met the penalty that was do them, if they stayed in hell one second longer, it would be unjust for that person to suffer infinitely for finite sins. They will simply cease to exist. Now, I think a few things to be said, historically, this view is even rarer than Christian universalism. Really? Oh, way rarer. Honestly, yeah. It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't. It didn't John stop at the end of his life becoming an annihilationist. That was about to say that. And if I understand this correctly, it's like a mainstream view in British evangelicalism, which is not by the way, that's not good. No, I would say that's part of the reason you get a little bit of a weakness in the church over there, but that's also a great conversation. So brief history is funny. You get into exactly what's going to get into the first three hundred four hundred years, three four hundred years. There's really only two explicit annihilationists we can find. One of them is a guy named Arnobius who literally Jerome says, oh, I'm going to mention this almost. It's almost the end of that. Really? You're right. You're right. It's going to be a lot of time. Wow. You're going out. Okay. It's literally Jerome Warren. So he says he is read with profit by many, but is not so much approved on account of a style or his opinions. So literally, like very, very few people do and then it pretty much vanishes for almost 1,400 years. Comes back in heretical groups, like the Sicinians, but then you have some fringe groups who adopted and then in the 1800s, British people start writing on it in the English and tradition. Oh, it's really fantastic. I was in Britain, the evangelical side of it. You had some fringe groups like Virginia was against this movement. Yeah. Right. Oh, general Spurgeon was not obviously not, but I'm saying like during this time. So yeah, that's right. We had some fringe groups like Sicinians, 70 Adventists, but then starting in the 1800s with British Anglicans. And then additionally in the 1900s with British evangelicals, it became more of a thing. John Stott was like the watershed moment, which love a lot of this stuff. Cross of Christ. Oh, John Stott, it looks ever. But then yeah, his was the big one that broke this all open. I like to tell people in the grand scheme of things. This is extraordinarily rare, which always said, it doesn't mean it's automatically wrong, but you do have to stop and ask if the same people for thousands of years read the same verses, but did not come to the same conclusions. And it wasn't just a little pocket, but literally Greek Orthodox Catholic Protestant, they all came to the same conclusions. You had to stop and ask why? Now what an annihilationist would do. I want to do too much of this because I think you did a lot of this in that video was they'll kind of say, well, hey, you know, it really matters what we mean by destruction and by the idea of eternal. So they I read earlier from Thessalonians, they would say, I destruction, that means they cease to exist. Problem with that is that war is not usually used that way when it's used in the New Testament. It's more like the idea of if I got and I say, guys, my car was totally destroyed last night. You would not think, "Oh, pulse disease exists." - It could exist. - No, you would think that if it came to a state of utter ruin, it was nothing like its former self, kind of a thing. And also they would say, "Hey, eternal is really the idea "of, hey, it is eternal and it's a fact "that it's forever this way." Or it's eternal in the sense of it belongs to the new age. Like early when I read Matthew 25, it talks about someone who goes to eternal destruction, others to eternal life. People will say, "Oh, eternal means the coming age." It actually can. And how long is that coming age? Is my here's the nervous question to that kind of thing. All right. - So that's YouTube, YouTube and Isolationism. I will just say this to give it through all bone to some of these guys. There's varying species within each of these views. So like an Isolation is broad-brushing. - The reason that they call, and we hit this on a Kirkhamer Reactive episode, the reason Paul mentioned conditionalism, some of them will call it conditional mortality. And basically what they'll say is, "Hey man, have you ever noticed this is what they'll say?" Hey man, it says that the gift of God is eternal life. So their thing is, "Hey, your default mode is not to live for eternity." That's only a gift that God gives you when you trust Jesus. So eventually you just cease to exist. And a lot of them think that unbelievers go to the intermediate state, but then when they're cast into the lake of fire, they cease to exist. So anyway, that's YouTube, view three. - Yeah, and the reason that's not as much of an error is that the universalism, which there's two different views that the universalism will cover these next. These literally rewrite the entire gospel story. Annihilationism rewrites the nature of the punishment. - There you go. - Annihilationists would say we believe in the punishment just that it's everlasting torment. So I believe in major error, but it's not a heresy. All right, so two views that are heretical. One is what I would like to call a generic universalism. This is the idea of all are saved regardless of Jesus. So hey, whether you are a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Hindu, whatever, as long as you're sincere and as long as you're not Hitler, you're gonna go to heaven. And who knows, maybe even Hitler is there too. Maybe he was given a second chance, kind of a thing. - Love wins. - If you always leave to God, love wins, all that kind of stuff. - If you have ever, you have a liberal ant, and she used to go to the Unitarian Universalist Church, that's what this is. - Yes. - This is when you're like, actually it's funny. Janna and Eleon are in Boston. And Janna texted me, she was like, man, all the churches up here, they got pride flags on them. And tolerance, bumper stickers. - That's it, that's it. - All they got pride flags on them, and they're all empty. - Yep. - So here's the deal, this is the deal, man, is those churches, and when you stop believing in hell, the churches die. One reason is God removes His lampstand. Number two, the other reason is very frankly, normal thinking people start going, now wait, it's like it actually doesn't really matter what I do. I don't really gotta do this thing, and I'm just gonna end up in heaven, well then I'm gonna stay home, I think. - Yeah, I'm gonna do me. - Yeah, well, and like the problem with this view is it's literally straight heresy. - Yeah, this puts you, you're no longer in a meaningful sense a Christian anymore. - Acts 4, 12 says, there is salvation and no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. - Good. - Yeah, and in just in one sense, just to what you guys were saying, I mean, if you don't believe in hell, you don't understand the cross. Like at the cross, Jesus experienced abandonment, judgment and separation from God, which is the essence of what hell is. And so, you know what I would say, the cross Jesus took that punishment that we deserve, and the reasons Christians make it to heaven is not because we're good, it's because the penalty has been paid. - That's right. - So for the John style would be an example of an inhalationist, universalism is a heresy. That was like Rob Bell. Like Rob Bell, popular Bible teacher was younger. Actually, if I understand this, like actually went apostate, actually became tragically, somebody would be like, man, that's, he's actually a heretic and wrote a book about this. - Yeah. - So, navigating for some form of essentially modified universalism. - And frankly, this is exactly what we just heard from Tallerico in the months leading up to the election, is literally, he says, oh, they all point to the God and some of love in some kind of a way. This is generic universalism. - There you go. - Big time, keep going. - There is a fourth which would be called the Christian universalism. So generic universalism is the idea of all are saved regardless of Jesus. Christian universalism would say all are saved because of Jesus. So a Christian universalist would say, hey, it is Jesus to sacrifice that saves us and they would also most Christian universalists would believe in a hell. They just believe that eventually it will be empty. So the idea is that if you've not placed your faith in Jesus, you go to hell. But you're giving chance after chance, after chance to repent and believe in Jesus in hell. And eventually everybody will. So eventually hell will be empty. So like they would appeal to us as, hey, God desires all to be saved. Well, if he desires all to be saved, well then eventually they are going to be saved. Talks about how in Ephesians 1, all things in the fullness of time are going to be united in Christ. And this points to it. There's so many problems with this part of, we don't get any kind of any of post-mortem evangelism or post-mortem repentance. - Our promise. - Are you going to go to first Peter? - I'm going to throw one at you. So I'm going to throw, these are the Bible verses that when you read them, the ever-due, just listen to this. I guarantee there was a moment in your life where you read this verse and you were like, and I'm going to use this word literally. You were like, what the hell? For real, like, because actual, and I mean that literally. I'm going to throw two verses at you, Paul. Please make it sound like. I mean, Paul, what are you talking about? There's no second chance. It's right here. - It's right here. - This is first Peter 3, 18 and following. For Christ also suffered once for sins. The righteous for the unrighteous. He might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. In which Paul, Paul, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few, that is eight persons were brought, say, through the water. So Paul, it just says, right there? - Yeah. - Jesus went. Wait, I'm going to do one more. I'm going to do one more. - This says right there. That Jesus went and preached to gospel people who were dead and seems like they got a second chance. Paul, here's another one, first Peter 4.6. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead. That the judged in the flesh, the way people are. They might live in the spirit of the way God does. So what are you talking about, Paul? - I know. - It's right there. - Wow. - People in hell get a second chance to hear it. What do you think? - I think I just changed my mind and now I'm in a Christian university. It's actually just saying those. - The podcast is over. - We're all joking, everybody. If you're just turning it right now, that's a joke. Yeah, I can do it. - No, I would actually fire you. - I mean, what, by the way, as rightly you should. No, for real, I would've said that as rightly you should. Yeah, I mean, in the joke, even that I was given there, it's my first move of sponsor to be generally, how do we interpret the Bible? We interpret what is confusing by what is clear, not vice versa. So in other words, if a mound of evidence points in one direction and there is a mound of evidence here, Jesus talked about hell more than anyone else. And there's a lot of other passages in the New Testament as well. If the mound of evidence goes in one direction, if there's these others, we don't then immediately write off all that other stuff. Instead, we say, these are confusing. Let's slow down. And even if we have to live in this confusion, we're going to give proper weight to what the mound of evidence does now to these few verses. - So the principle, before you go on, the principle of biblical interpretation for all the listeners is, we interpret unclear passages in light of clear passages. We do not reinterpret the clear passages in light of the unclear passage. - Exactly, because even like right here, if I'm maybe-- - By the way, that's what heretics always do. - Yes. - You watch. We're going to show one at the end of this podcast. What heretics always do is they take unclear passages and they use them to get you to reinterpret all the clear passages. Once you see that pattern, you can't unsee it. - It's everywhere. - That's right. - 100%. - 100%. - 100%. So like even like we these, if I'm reading this-- - That's what I'm telling you. - That's what I'm telling you. - No, it is. If I'm reading this, I think, well, wait a second. Scripture also literally says that the people who go to hell are tormented day and night forever. So these things seem to be intention also. It seems like in Hebrews, it says that it is appointed once for men to die and then comes judgment. So I'm thinking of all these other verses. Okay, so then let me dive into this and say, okay, what are some possible scope of meaning? And typically there's actually been two or three different possible interpretations. That's another sign by the way. If real respected scholars land in a multitude of places and they all say, hey, we can't know for certain, don't build a whole doctrine around what people say we can't know for sure. And three broad views in terms of what people believe about this passage. One is that this is actually referring to how Christ preached through Noah to people in the time of Noah. That sounds really weird to people, but if you go back to 1 Peter 1, it literally talks about the spirit of Christ was active in o-testment prophets and he was preaching through them to people in their time. So if he did it through the prophets, it also makes sense Noah, who is in a sense kind of a prophet in his day, would do the same thing in his time. Also in 2 Peter 2, 5, it says that Noah was a creature of righteousness. So one of you is the idea that, hey, this is talking about how Noah is talking to people who now, by the way, are spirits in prison. So they're spirits in prison now, but they weren't then exactly the same thing with that 2 Peter reference, the idea of yeah, they're dead now, but at one point they weren't then. A second, I think, really plausible meaning is Christ will claim victory to fall in angels. - Yeah. - So this is the idea that often spirits is actually most often used not of human beings but of non-human beings, spiritual beings. And so this is the idea, especially if here, he's referencing Genesis 6, which we got into a little bit last time with the Nephilim. Jude uses this language, second Peter uses this language, talking about these spirits who are disobedient. - This right here is what I think. - Yeah. - And so basically the view is, - Basically the view is Jesus dunking on the people. - Exactly. - It's a I'm him, I'm dunking on your face. Like I just conquered you and I'm gonna tell you the gospel, which is Evangelion, that's the good news of I have conquered sin, death, and Satan. - Exactly. I'm gonna come exactly where you are, get right in your face and tell you, I just beat you. - So literally in Colossians talks about how through the cross, like Jesus leads these powers to open shame. So it's basically him going into hell and saying, I won. - I won. - What's up now? - How you like them apples? - It. - That's right. (laughing) - I actually watched it. (laughing) - Okay, but before I get to victory, we got to know. - It's not your fault. (laughing) - Okay, but before I actually hit point three, I know there's a total side of it. - Was that good? - Yeah, I actually liked that a lot. You know, I only got to watch it with your kids around. - No, it was a great day and night movie. I will say it much better than Tombstone. (laughing) - It's a great movie. - And I will say this, but I will say that the movie felt old. Like I was just a-- - Yeah. - It was before HD. - Yes, why? - You know, and Ben Affleck and Madema are super young, but yeah, I liked that a lot from that. - Come on. - I keep talking about it. Point three is, is that he that Christ preached to the human dead. So he did this into it, and he preached to the human dead. But not necessarily to give them a second chance. It's basically a variation of number two, which is he went to proclaim, hey, this is actually who I wasn't really what happened. I would personally hold, and I think majority of scholars would hold to either number one or number two, or even to a potentially both, that he preached both to the people in the days of Noah through Noah, but then also he went down and descended, not to suffer hell, but to actually proclaim his victory. And so right now we've got four views. We've got eternal conscious torment. We've got annihilationism. We're gonna draw a line right there and go, man, past this line, you're really veering outside of the realm of Christianity. - Yeah. - So then the third view would be generic universalism. The fourth view to recap would be quote unquote, Christian universalism. - Venge not a good idea that don't like that, don't like that. Now this fifth view is essentially the Catholic view. This is a big question, let's Paul talk about it. - Yeah, a purgatory, why do people believe that? Is there a biblical support for it? What do we think? It's hella adjacent in the sense of, this is actually a place for believers, but where believers go to an essence still pay or to have the remaining sense purge, that's the idea of purgatory. It's purge from them so they can be fit to internot into hell, but into heaven. So that's why I tell people, it's hella adjacent in the sense of, it's a place of, there's actually not a ton of details that Catholics will give around what the experience is like, but it's a reason for that. - There's a reason for that. - Because there's not a single Bible verse about it. - Catholic, that's why. - Catholics will probably disagree with you. - They're calling it hell adjacent. - Well yeah, that's fair, 'cause I'm glad you said that. - Yeah, go ahead. - I'm allergic to me as a Protestant, saying that kind of thing. - But just go ahead. - Here's the thing. - Even the fact that we're putting in this category, I think Catholics would be like, "What are you doing?" This is not related. - 'Cause that's how they see it. - The idea of how the thinking goes is that when we die one day, even if we've walked for Jesus, we're not gonna be perfect. So there's still some sanctification left, and before I can get into heaven, that sanctification has to happen according to Catholic thinking, not according to what we think kind of a thing. And so there has to be a place of purging for your remaining sin. And to that, we would say, absolutely not. - Not, it's insane. It's literally antithetical to the very heart of the gospel. - Now somebody would say, "Well, but if that's not case, "then there's no motivation to live holy life." And say, "Well, hey, number one, because I love Jesus." And number two, what you've talked about before, there is this idea of eternal rewards based on my faithfulness or lack thereof. - No, so Paul. - Yeah, let's just be really clear. First of all, there is not a, not literally not one verse in your Bible, not one verse in your Bible that even eludes to the concept purgatory. So where did it even come from? - This is based on the apocrypha. - So really the only, the apocrypha or the Deutero canonical books that are not in the correct Bible, there are not. - Protestants usually call it the apocrypha. Catholics would call it Deutero canonical in the second canon because they were received later into the canon. - Yeah, Catholic books, but we're into a whole react episode on this. The Catholic Bible has seven books in it that should not, all caps should not be in there. And you're saying the purgatory doctrine is extracted from the Deutero canonical books. - And by the way, before we do that video in case there are some Catholic Sitions, it's like, wait a second, let's not trim. The guy who originally translated the Volgate, which you mentioned earlier, Jerome, he himself said that even though he included them in, they are not canon and inspired. So it's just something to think about for a while. - All right, yeah, second Maccabees, which is one of the seven books, 12, 45 says, "Therefore, he made a toment for the dead "that they might be delivered from their sin." So this verse with a few others just from the apocrypha is what Catholics would bank on. And also again, just their reasoning, if you're not sanctified yet, more has to happen. - So it's for safe people and Catholic theology is for purgatories for safe people only. - It's for safe people only. - For safe people only. - To purge further sins until they get to heaven. - Exactly. - Because no, there would say no perfect people enter heaven. - Exactly. So to your point, we would say, hey, we don't believe this. Remember one, 'cause the absence of any scripture, whatsoever, in the 66 books of the inspired Bible that point is that. And because the presence of scripture, that straight up contradicts it. So you got like Hebrews 9, 27. Again, it is supported once for man to die and then after that comes judgment. Oh, not first you gotta go to another place and then you can enter into it. Luke 16, 26, "A great chasm has been fixed." So you have the idea of one man in the parable goes to one place and another to another place. Secondly, it's 5'8" to be away from the body is to be where at home with the Lord. - With the Lord the Lord. - The thief on the cross today will be with him. Paragods, that thief was terrible. You don't get crucified unless you're a really bad guy. So actually when people hear thief like, this isn't like a guy who went into T.J. Maxx and stole something. He was like an insurrectionist who was probably killing people and doing some really, really bad things. And then finally, he brews 10, 14. Actually not finally, he brews 10, 14 says, God has once all perfected those who are being sanctified. So on the one hand, we're perfect in God's eyes. - That's right. - Because we are in Christ. On the other hand, we're still being sanctified. But this brings us to the beautiful moment where it says in Corinthians that, I'm actually starting first shone, when we see Jesus, we will become like him. For we will see him as he is. So my justification, my salvation is dependent on Christ. My sanctification is dependent upon Christ. And my glorification is dependent upon Christ. - Let me show you why this. Honestly man, I love, I got some wonderful Catholic friends. I love them. I believe I'll see them in heaven. That's a whole different conversation. This in particular is a bit, honestly, like a little bit of an enraging. Doctorant to me is a pastor. Let me show you why real quick. Tony, will you toss that thing up there? Bro, this is fascinating. Have you seen this poem? Okay, do this is interesting. So Ron Burge, great researcher. I'll follow on on X. Dude, literally of every religious segment in America, no one is more scared of dying than Catholics. So evangelical Protestants, that's us. We're team Protestant, only 20% of us are scared of afraid of very afraid of dying. By the way, we shouldn't be. - No, the same man. - Listen, it's you're gonna blink and then you're gonna wake up and you're gonna hug Jesus. - Right, and by the way, we're gonna celebrate that in a couple weeks at Easter. - Come on man. - So come on. - So a whole celebration about it. - So it's only 20%. Atheist, like Atheist Agnostic, non-religious people, it was 28%. - They're interesting. - By far, the most afraid of dying in America, Catholics at 39%. So here's a big deal man is, it's the slam dunk on this thing. When Jesus hung on the cross and he pulled up on those nail pierced hands and feet, he did not cry, it is almost finished. He cried out, it is finished. Now, lead up to Easter, we gotta get this. There is something about that little phrase, a lot of Christians don't understand about the words that Jesus had on the cross, like last words. So when he does that and he cries out, it is finished. That's a Greek translation of a, it's a English translation of a Greek word to tell us die. Now, this word, this is a great word. It was used in three ways. Number one, it was used like in a business sense for ancient receipts in New Testament Bible times to indicate that like a literal debt, this is important, had been paid in full. And not in part, it had been paid in full. Two, to tell us how it was used in a judicial context, like in a court, when a sentence was fully served, not somewhat served, not completely, once and for all, fully served. And then three, the term to tell us die, it was used as a military term, which literally means that a battle was completely won. It's a word of like triumph and victory. So just put all these together and do the math in your head. So when Jesus hangs on the cross and he cries out, he does not cry out, is almost finished. He cries out, it is finished. He was declaring in that one word that your sin debt is fully paid. The judgment for all your sin is fully served. And the spiritual war against sin, death and Satan is completely and fully won. So in Christ, the work of salvation, victory, reconciliation, new life is fully yours. It is finished. Which is why we do not ever believe in something like a purgatory that kind of essentially says, what's almost finished. No, no. That's Jesus thing. That's amazing. Bro, that's powerful. And honestly, like, you know, again, that's what you believe changes how you be. and what would you expect in the future? And so there's hope, it's a big hope there. Man, somebody's listening to this right now and they're like, but yeah, but I still have some objections about how. - Yeah, well, you know, rapid-fire some of these objections. - Let's do it. - Let's rapid-fire the objections. - So Pastor Josh, I just can't wrap my mind around this. Hell feels unfair to me. How can a loving God send people to hell? Why would he be so cruel? - Yeah, okay, let me just point this out. So first of all, there's something that I had never seen before in my entire life until sermon prep this week. You've read it, then it's kind of thing you'll read a million times and you didn't know you read it. All right, so this is the kind of my, I love sermon prep, I love the Bible. So Matthew 25, parable a sheep in the goats. Just make a little face when you realize where I'm going with this or you may like me have never realized this before. So Matthew 25, parable a sheep in goats, talking about the final judgment, yeah. Okay, so Jesus does the, hey man, the sheep, you're gonna go on my right and now listen really close. You gotta listen really close. So this is what Jesus says to the sheep. Then the king will say to those on his right, come you who are blessed by my father. Here it comes, take your inheritance. The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Okay, now first of all, okay, cool, that's fine. All right, that's really cool. But then this is what people miss. If you watch what Jesus says a few verses later to the goats that he's sending to eternal judgment, listen really close to what he says, it's different. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Bro, this is a big deal. God did not create hell originally with the intent of you, you and people ending up in hell. He created heaven, that was what he created heaven for. That's why at the beginning you have the people of God and the presence of God and the place of God. That's how they're great. He originally, the intent was, "Hey man, this is the place for the devil and his angels." And let me just say this, the Bible is really clear. God does not want anybody to go to hell. No, this is second Peter 3.9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness instead he is patient with you, not wishing anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. As you go 33, as surely as I live, declares this sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked and the rather that they turn from their ways and live, turn, turn from your evil ways, why will you die people of Israel? So here's a big idea, man. God loves you, he doesn't want you to go to hell. God loves you so much that it's like he hangs on a cross at the entrance of hell and he's telling every person that walks in, if you're gonna go in there, you gotta go over my dead body. So that's the big thing, there's a couple things I wanna say on this and then let me just shut her down. You guys can add something, the other thing I would say is what people do is, here's what they say, think about how the objections worded. How could a loving God send people to hell? Well, here's the deal, man. God's only characteristic, he's got more characteristics than one. What a lot of times people do is, man, God is love, the Bible does say that, what the Bible doesn't say is that love is God, it does not say that. In fact, the characteristic that is most frequently and emphatically ascribed to God is not love, is holiness. And holiness is separation from what is unrighteousness, okay? So I think what I would say is to somebody, it's like, hey man, I didn't feel fair. Here's a big idea, is that the judgment that someone receives for their sin, it's not based on the significance of the action as much as it's based on the significance of the person the sin is committed against. So it's kind of the deal of like, hey man, if I go kill a fly, nope, no penalty, if I walk out and, you know, if I shoot somebody's dog, you know, they're gonna sentence you to community service or to pay some kind of fine, you know, you feel. So somebody that would not like that. They would not like that, you know. If I go and I shoot a person, hey man, I could be convicted of manslaughter, I could spend, you know, whatever. If I walk into the White House and I try to assassinate the president, well then you're gonna be convicted for treason, you're gonna be the death penalty. Okay, so notice that, okay. There's one penalty for a nat, different penalty for a cat, different penalty for the person present in the United States. So we've seen this. It's a sin against a lesser being deserves a lesser punishment, a sin against a greater being deserves a greater punishment, a sin against a eternal and perfect God, it deserves eternal and perfect punishment. Here's what drives me nuts. People don't have any problem saying that people convicted of a crime should go to jail, but they freak out when you talk about somebody, this guilty of a sin going to hell. And let me just, here's what really bothers me on this, is, hey man, if you wanna talk about what's fair, let's talk about what's fair. Actually, hell is the place where everything's fair. Hell is where everyone gets exactly what they deserved. Yes. The place where everything is not fair is heaven. It's a man I lived a life full of sin and I get eternity in bliss with Jesus Christ. That's not fair. So here's what bugs me. It's people all the time, they'll say things like, man, how could a good God send anybody to hell? Which by the way, the question assumes you think everybody deserves heaven, okay? You know what? Nobody has ever asked me in 30 years, whatever, when nobody has ever asked me is man. I just don't understand how a just God could send me to heaven. Nobody ever says that. And that tells you something. Okay. Now on this, let's go, I wanna go to the next objection, but I do wanna, no one has ever responded to this objection in my opinion better than R.C. Sproul. So here's, I'm getting ready to show you, this is my blowing man. This is the best three minutes of, it's the best preaching clip on hell I have ever seen. So this dude, then can I tie it back to your passage after we're done? Oh sure. Come on, come on. This dude, this is R.C. Sproul. So, who by the way is Hug and Jesus now? R.C. Sproul ran a good race. This is good, this guy's unbelievable. Now he did this clip actually, when he was actually getting kind of close to Hug and Jesus. And it blew up the internet and it deserved it. So I want you to see the best, best three minutes of preaching on hell you will ever see. R.C. Sproul. Do you ever wonder what people are doing who are in hell? Jesus doesn't describe every activity that takes place there. But he does describe two responses of humans who have been consigned there, where he says in that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Some people when they wake up in hell will be devastated. And they won't find enough water in their eyes to satisfy their need to weep. They'll be sobbing. Oh no, not here. Oh God, please have mercy upon me. Be the greatest disappointment they could possibly experience to wake up in hell. But then the other group will be there. Won't be weeping a bit. They'll be gnashing their teeth, which is a biblical metaphor for human. - Wow, sure is it. - How dare you God put me here? The anger of the damned will know no bounds. I sure don't want to end up in hell. One thing I know for sure is that if I do, if I've deceived myself all these years, and if I'm one who says, "Lord, Lord, didn't I do this and didn't I do that?" And he looks at me and says, "Please leave, I don't know you." And he sends me to hell. One thing I can promise you, that I'll be a weeper, not a nashur. Because if I know anything about theology, I know that if he sent me to hell tonight, I could make no just complaint against him. I've been guilty of treason. Every time I have sinned, I've asserted my will over the will of my creator. I have declared that I am sovereign, not the Lord God. I've worked against his kingdom, not for it. I've sinned against a holy and infinitely righteous being, who owes me nothing. - Stop it. - Now listen, for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. - That's it right there. - Amen, amen. You actually see part of that in Luke 16. What most people, so many people miss about this passage is the rich man is in agony, but he is not in repentance. Because what does he do? He says, "Sin Lazarus here to serve me." He still sees Lazarus as beneath him. So nothing's changed except his location. - And then he's sent him to my brothers. - Exactly, he's basically the man's like, "Hey, I'm still the rich guy, I'm still the one in power." So he's an agony, but he's not in repentance. And so there's always this assumption that the people who go to hell don't want to go there. No, it's this idea, like I think it was C.S. Lewis that there are only two options. You either say, "Vai will be done to God." Or God says, "Vai will be done to you." You are my enemy in your sin. If you want to stay that way forever, you can. And there's consequences for that. And to your point, God in his love went and suffered the wrath of hell on the cross, so that we wouldn't have to. And so that's the idea also before we move on to that next objection. That's how people, God loves all people in some ways, but he loves some people in all ways. So what I mean by that, there's this fancy terms called common grace. That scripture talked about how the rain falls on the unrighteous, on the righteous. So he loves everyone. everyone because they're in excretion. By the way, that reign is undeserved. Because we've said, God, we don't deserve any good things. Like literally for unbelievers, this earth is as close as they'll ever come to heaven. So they receive good things from God here. And this is how he loves them. But scripture says that he doesn't love all people in the same way. He loves his children in a different way. In the same way, by the way, that's true of us. You and I are called to love each other and all these kinds of ways. But I love my kids and my wife in a special way. It's the same thing. God loves his kids in a special way. And guess what? Get the choice to your thing to repent and believe so we can become this children. That's right. Obviously, this is very heavy. Somebody might be asking, but Pastor Josh, what about people who never heard the gospel? Yeah, this is important, man. So first of all, honestly, the first thing I want to say may surprise you. How do you know? That's honestly the first thing I want to say. How do you know? So we have examples all throughout the scriptures of Jesus Christ appearing to people in dreams, of Jesus Christ doing miracles to reach somebody like Cornelius? How do you know? Yeah. So people do, hey man, the man on the island. I literally, I want to say like, how do you know, man? How do you know Jesus didn't appear to that guy? In fact, we hit it two episodes ago. There are stories of the man in white appearing to faithful Muslim people all over the world. Let them know like, hey, I'm the way that you're in life. How do you know? So that's number one, a lot of people miss. Number two, let me just, let's get, we're gonna wrap it far this thing real quick. Let's do a little theology really quick. Okay, so we're just gonna go, what's the Bible say? Doesn't matter how you feel, doesn't matter if you think it feels right. I'm just, what's the Bible say? Okay. So first of all, you got Romans 118. It's specifically answering your question. All right, so this Romans 118, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and a righteousness of men who by their own righteousness suppress the truth. Listen, really close, verse 19. For what may be known about God is plain to them. He's talking about people who are not Christians. Now you may be going, what do you mean, what do you mean? Because God has shown it to them. Question how, verse 20, for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, listen, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. Listen, so they are without excuse. - Wow. - So number one, we're saying, man, God has actually revealed himself in creation, like just look around, bro. Like somebody made this. I'll also point this out. Sociologists point out there has never been a human civilization discovered in all of human history that did not have some religion, some form of the divine. Why do you think that is? Because it's obvious to everyone everywhere, somebody made this thing. So that's number one. There is revelations take place. Number two, Romans chapter two, the very next chapter, start in verse 12. Okay, well then how they gonna be judged? They didn't know about Jesus, how they gonna be judged. Romans two answers the question about this start in verse 12. For all who have sinned without the law, will also perish without the law. And all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. So what this is saying is, but this is another misconception about, hell won't be the same for everybody. Like it's gonna be different. If you're, I don't know, I don't know how to say it. If you're like, I don't know. If you're some good, relatively good dude, try to do the best, reject to Jesus, but try to help people. Hell is gonna be different for you than it was for Jeffery Epstein. So we could do this later, but there's a bunch of verses that talk about how there's degrees of punishment in hell. Well, how's that mean it out? According to Romans two, you're judged according to the knowledge you have. Well, that's true also for people who never heard about Jesus. I don't know how it's gonna work out. I just know they're gonna be judged according to the knowledge that they had. And then last one is Romans 10 is one of the many verses. It just honestly makes it clear that very frankly, it doesn't matter why somebody did not end up in Christ. Everyone that's outside of Christ is not going to spend attorney with Jesus. We know this, Romans 10, 14. But how are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? He's, you see what he's assuming? He's going, hey, man, you guys got, we got to send missionaries. We got to get out there, have you one more cards? Because how are they gonna call on somebody they didn't believe? How are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? How are they to hear without someone preaching? How are they to preach unless they are sent? All right, so you just, you got it right there. So then the last thing I would say to this is, hey, man, if God's the size of the Pacific Ocean, your mind's the size of a Coke can, you better expect there to be some things that don't fit. So at the end of the day, I'll lay my head on the pillow and sleep real good. Go on, hey, man, are there some things that I don't understand? Yes, but is God good, loving, just, and fair? Yes, I'm a trust in him to figure all that out. That's right. Let's go to the next one. Let's go right now. Somebody would say, man, but that's what God's, I thought Jesus is about love and forgiveness. Well, how does that fit with hell? We do this real quick. Listen, Jesus is not your homeboy. Like what some people do is they'll take one attribute of God, and they'll just blow it up. Like it's the only aspect of God. And all of a sudden, Jesus is Mr. Rogers. Well, hey, man, like, yeah, Jesus is really loving. Jesus is also so terrifying that when his best friend John saw him in Revelation, he fell down in a catatonic state as though dead. So yes, he's a lamb. He's also a lion. So what would you need to understand is, man, the first time Jesus came, he came as a lamb to keep people from going to hell. I'm gonna say something that's got a bit of an edge to it. The second time he comes, he will come as a lion to send people there. This is Revelation 14, it's Revelation 20. In fact, if you, if I just wanna point this out, oh, Jesus, just, Jesus, loving and forgiveness, he would never do, okay. Well, actually, in Revelation 20, guess who is the person who sends everybody to hell? Jesus. Jesus, yeah. Go read Revelation 20. In fact, we were talking about this for a podcast. Revelation 1410 says Jesus is the one who reigns over hell. Revelation 1410 and another angel, a third followed them, saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast in its image and receives a mark on his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger. And he will be, listen, he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. So in one sense that I don't fully understand, Jesus is actually the one that is justly reigning over all of the judgment that is happening in hell. So yes, he's a lamb, but man, just make sure you understand who you're talking about when you worship in Jesus. 'Cause he's gonna come back on a war horse with a robe dipped in blood, a big tattoo on his thigh that says King of Kings, sword out of his mouth and fire in his eyes and he's, that's terrifying. Those are the people that are gnashing their teeth at the person whom they've rejected. Here's another one. Well, hell isn't real. Like, you know, it's actually a metaphor. It's actually symbolic. We have a quick video. Unless you wanna skip the video. Oh, you wanna do the Adam already? Let's do it, man. So there's a quick video that has gone fairly viral. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, so let's set this up real quick. So this, here's why we're gonna finish the episode on this. This is the kind of thing. If you're a Christian, like just normative work, working a normal job. This is what you're gonna get thrown at ya. Yeah. And especially, essentially. If you're a Christian who like walks into your junior college, religious examination, survey, course, or the, you know, the gender studies class at UT Austin, this is the type of thing you're gonna get thrown at ya. And people will just like this guy. You rarely see people so confidently say dumb thing. And listen, again, I'll just go back to this. Sometimes when I say people, things like that, people like, "Hey, Josh, you're being mean." We treat people who are refugees from the world different than we treat people who are apostles of the world. This guy, this went mega viral. This thing about hell in the afterlife right here. And this dude is teaching and seducing and deceiving people in ways that will impact their eternities. So no, I'm not gonna go super soft on that. (laughs) So this is, yeah, all right. So let me set this up. This is a dude named Adam already. He's every atheist favorite Christian. Let me just say this. If everyone who hates God likes you, you're doing it wrong. So when Jesus said to love your enemies, he said to love your enemies, he didn't say you weren't gonna have any. In fact, what he said is, "What do you and all men speak well of you?" Yes. So if you find yourself as a Christian twisting and contorting scripture to try to make everybody like it, him and like, we're way off the rails. So let's just, we're gonna walk through this real quick 'cause this kind of thing, everybody gets thrown at him and then we'll shut her down here, all right. So here we go, Adam, I'll read. (laughs) - If you think heaven is a place you go after you die, you've already missed the whole point of being alive. Jesus said it. (laughs) - If you think heaven is a place you go and you die, you've already missed the whole point, okay. Well then Jesus missed the whole point. (laughs) Because Jesus in things like today, you will be with me and paradise to a dude, like when you die, that's where you go. - Sounds like a place. - If you go when you die. - And the Apostle Paul literally says, if the resurrection is real, we should be pitted above all people. - Because there's only just this life that we have hope in Christ. I'm being pitted more than anybody. - The Apostle Paul? - My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is, so like, when you find yourself quote unquote smarter been Jesus. us in Paul? We're doing it wrong. That's right. Let's keep on. Let's keep on. Kingdom of heaven is within you. He didn't say it's in the clouds. He didn't say it's coming someday in the future if you behave. He said it's within you right now. Pause, pause, pause. Now first of all, this is the kind of thing that it will because he's mixing things that are true with things that are untrue. Okay, so first of all, he's saying, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you. That's not quite what Jesus said, but it's close. I'm going to read the verse. Once when being asked by Pharisees, when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed. Normal people say, here it is, there it is, because the kingdom of God is in your midst. That's what he's referring to. Now, what Jesus is doing here, this is a little theology. When you reach a New Testament, you see the phrase kingdom of God. It's just talking about anywhere the reign of Jesus is extended. That's right. And anywhere, okay? So here's what the New Testament does, and this is super theology, nerd thing. There's a dude named George Ladd that coined the phrase inaugurated as Catalogy. And what he pointed out is the New Testament talks about the kingdom of God in terms of already and not yet. It's been inaugurated so it's already, but it's not fully realized so it's not yet. So you got both of these things. I'm not going to read all the verses here because you know, I don't, you know, whatever it is. He also said, Jesus didn't say it's coming someday in the future. Revelation 21, the New Heaven is coming down out of heaven from God. Yeah, so it must be in the future. So here's the point, dude. What you got to watch is people just say stuff. Yeah. And they'll be really confident. And they say it in a soothing masculine voice. And you're like, oh, man, it sounds very wise, claiming to be wise. They became fools. All right. Here we go. Let's keep going. Which means heaven isn't a destination. It's a decision. We create heaven or hell in real time by how we act, how we think, how we live, how we love. And one of the greatest traps of religion and one of the most subtle poisons of culture is the idea that heaven is somewhere out there in the sky, in the future, after we die, or when some second coming finally arrives and sets things right. But what if that very idea is the thing that is keeping you from being the most powerful version of yourself right now? What if, well, I do the do the next sense, the second coming isn't an event, but a metaphor. It's you rising from the deadness of your own. Okay, first of all, he's the litter. That's literally the exact false teaching, the apostle Paul rebukes in second of the two. So he said, Hey, man, what if the second coming isn't an event? It's a metaphor. I'm just going to read a Bible verse. Second to me, the two Paul says avoid godless chatter. Heads up, there's a lot of reels that you're watching for everybody listening. There's a lot of reels that you're watching and TikTok little segments that you're watching that are godless chatter. That is godless chatter. So here's what he goes, because those who indulge in it will become more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Case in point, that went mega viral. Among them, and he just calls out these two false teachers by name. Among them are hymenaeus and phyletists who have departed from the truth. Watch, watch, watch with that. How do they depart from the truth? Watch this. They say that the resurrection, aka second coming, has already taken place. In other words, it's already happened in the in the salvation that you experience a metaphor is what they were saying. And they destroy the faith of some. He's literally this thing about mega viral. He's literally committing the exact. Heresy, the exact false teaching polls are beaking in second to the other thing. I just want to say real quick. And then if you guys got any context, we can do it now. Let's move on. So dude, he says, essentially, he pulls the Karl Marx, where he, this is what he does. What he's doing is he's got, hey man, you know, this, you know, this whole religion, heaven and hell thing, what if it's keeping you from becoming the most powerful version of yourself? You want to be the kind of man if this is all I got. So that's repackaged Marx. Karl Marx was the religion is the opiate of the masses. I just want to point this out. We need to hold this out on Karl Marx at some point. Let me point this out. Karl Marx was like a horrible awful man. Oh, yeah. A horrible, awful man, refused to bathe, refused to ever work or provide for his family, made his friend, Friedrich Ingalls pay for his whole life. So if you start going man, I wonder Karl Marx, communism, socialism, man, I wonder why he really wanted to set up a government where everybody else paid for, for, for people who don't work because dude literally never worked. He lived with his mom for part of his life. I understand this correctly. And then he made his buddy, Friedrich Ingalls pay for his entire life. He either slept with or raped one of his servants, got her pregnant and then refused to father the child and not one but two, both of his daughters committed suicide. So that's Karl, that's, that's Karl Marx. Now, let's go back to the original. That's the dude who said, you know what? Religion is the opiate of the masses. Well, you look at Karl Marx's life. It seems like e-religion was the opiate of the masses because it convinced a guy. It really actually doesn't matter how I live at all because there's no coming judgment. So what this guy says is he's like, ah, you need to ask yourself what kind of man I choose to be if this is all I got. A better question would be what beliefs will compel you to be a good, righteous, and loving man that uses his strength for a purpose greater than himself. Amen. That's the question you need to be asking. And even just if you think historically speaking, if you want to go find places that were the most like hell on earth, go find the places that didn't believe in a hell after earth. That's right. In places that are built on more social, socialistic communities, a good ideology where there was no God, those were the places that if you went there, it was like living in hell on earth. So historically, it may sound cool and viby on, on, on, on, on a rhythm like that. It is just divorce from historical reality of how the world is actually worth. That's exactly right. Let's keep going. I had a conversation with my sister once. I said, you know, for all the fear that people have of atheism, there's something actually freeing in it. And I'm a believer. But if there's no reward waiting for me after that, no, no. So here's, all right, here, watch this dude. If you, here's your red flag, oh man, this is not somebody I should listen to. If you start noticing that is somebody, this James Talriga does the same thing. If you start noticing that somebody claims to be a Christian, but everything they say hates Christianity, bingo. Like there's your flashing light. He's like, hey man. So what this dude is doing is I'm a believer. But really the atheists got it right. Like James Talriga did the exact same thing, like three different clips. So, you know, I'm a Christian, but really the Muslims and the atheists, they really act more like Christ. It's like, that's what every progressive Christian, it's really just somebody that calls themselves a Christian that hates Christianity. That's what this dude's doing. Keep going. No gold stars from God, no mansion in the sky. Then I have to face the real question right now. What kind of man do I choose to be if this is all I got? Not what religion expects, not what culture demands, not what my family wants. Pause. I just want to, that's great. Actually, good, good. That's right. It does not matter what the people around you, what you, what your family, I just want to point to that props. Correct. Why? Because Jesus Christ will judge you and no one else. Yes. It does not matter if you came from a Christian family. You're not going to be judged by your family. You're going to be judged by you. What did you do with Jesus? God doesn't save last names. He saves first names. So props. I like that. Let's keep going. But what I decide and full awareness right now, God gave us a canvas. What we paint on it is up to us. You want to wait for heaven or do you want to build it? He gave you breath. He gave you the will. He gave you the divine spark to observe, assign meaning and create. That's what God does. And he gave us the same power. So stop wasting your time waiting for some reward. Stop pining away your power for some cosmic carrot in the sky. Yeah, pause. I just want to again, you always use God. What's the word say? Literally, Jesus is constantly like, Hey, behold, I'm coming soon. And I'm bringing my rewards with me. And I want you to work real hard to get some. I'm excited to give them out. And then this dude comes along with a very sophisticated Instagram reel. He's all of a sudden smarter than Jesus. He's going heaven is within you right now. So act like it. Create it. Live like it. Okay, I just have one response to this. Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on you. No, no, we're obviously joking. But for real, you should ignore everything that says. Oh, man, Pastor Josh, would you pray for us? I might have Paul do it. Pastor Paul. It's got we just stop now and we confess that you were a God that is infinitely loving. And infinitely just and infinitely holy that you care about this world now, but you also don't care about the world to come. And Lord, you look down and even though this world you created was perfect, we rebelled against you and we screwed it up. And God, you could have just left this room. You would have not have been unjust so that every single one of us go to hell. But instead, you sent your son and Jesus, you came and you lived a perfect life. It couldn't live and yet you suffered the horrors of hell through your sufferings and also your death on a cross to save us from hell. And we just thank you for that. God, I want to pray that the reality of hell would come just home to a sinner real way. Number one, for those of us who already believers, would you, Lord, let it be a source of gratitude of just a recognition of what you saved us from? But would you also use it to drive an urgency in us because, Lord, you want to save others as well? Lord, at the end of the day, every person we're interacting with, they have an invisible timer that is counting down their lives and then the stopwatch of fraternity goes on forever and if they do not know you, they would be away from your fraternity. Lord, let that be a weight and an urgency to compel us here in this world to seek and save the lost just like you came to do. So Lord, would you do that? And God, I want to pray that with this and with all things, would you give us discerning minds, Lord, to be aware of when people are saying things that are partly true or almost true? Would you help us discern truth from error so that we could live lives and think thoughts that are glorifying to you? It's your name we pray.