How Butternut Box Went From Startup to Europe’s #2 Pet Food Brand - Ep 67 - Start-up marketing stories: The Marketing Hustle

Lottie Unwin Introduces Sarah Keegan and Butternut Box Hello and welcome back to The Marketing Hustle, which is a podcast where we hear from founders and CMOS about what actually happens in their marketing teams and in their marketing work. There is an amazing archive of interviews for you to dig into now. So please, if you've just found us, get stuck in. Before I jump into this interview, I'm just going to give you a quick overview of who I am and what I do because sometimes I know that that gets missed. I'm Lottie Unwin and I am a die hard startup marketing obsessive. I'm also eight months pregnant if I look a little round in the video and a little wriggly during the recording as baby kicks. I run three businesses. Brand Hackers is fractional marketing teams for brands with big dreams. Up Talent is a talent and recruitment business specialized in marketing roles for startups. And Upworld is a community and curated learning platform for anyone in a marketing role, whether that's a founder who's being a bit of a voyeur or you're an entry level marketer trying to work out how to build a personal development plan. So today's episode is an interview with Sarah Keegan, who is Interim brand and Creative Director at Button Up Books. Now, I must admit, I didn't know a lot about Butternut Box before this interview, and I was very frank with Sarah about that. She taught me some amazing things. But Butternut Box are on track to become the second largest pet food brand in Europe, which is absolutely incredible. And Sarah has come in full steam ahead into her mat leave role, making some massive waves in the business that you'll hear lots more about. We chatted in detail about some amazing advice she has on how to manage your calendar if you're here for some quick wins. And we also talked about how you make creative work so impactful that it can double the business in a matter of months and win D&D pencils. How Brand and Performance Marketing Can Coexist She's got some amazing stories from her career. Speaker 2 Yeah, and Marcus seems really evolved. I think especially I've noticed this over the last few years. It used to be that the marketing was maybe all in one function and it still is today at Butternut where I work now, it still is today, but there's a real split I think between brand marketing and performance marketing and the two have to coexist. But I've definitely noticed of in performance marketing, almost more engineering brains and very focused on like the rigor and the analytics and the data and the performance. And then you have the brand marketers, which is more of the ideas and the creativity and the humanness that you can infuse into a brand. So yeah, I feel like there's been a real shift over the last few years, but it's almost evolved. But the two sides have to work together and that's been quite interesting. Speaker 3 Do you I? Speaker 1 Mean clearly that's happened. Do you think we're coming back together? Is there any light at the end of the tunnel or is this like problematic rift? It's getting bigger, the divorce. Speaker 2 Exactly. Speaker 3 Is this acrimonious or? Speaker 2 No, I think they have to work together. So at Butternuts the with the brand of the marketing teams, we work so closely together and we have weekly meetings where we sit down and we talk about the creativity and the ideas and like this is what we think we should do on paid social and then they will go to us. Well, according to the data, this is what worked. This is what we would tweak. And then it's very much a hand in hand partnership. And I think that, you know, there's lots of research out at the moment that shows that you get the best performance when brand and performance work together. Like that is the ideal multiplier effect. And I think that's that's really true from what I've seen so far, but. Speaker 1 Why are we still structured in these weird ways? Speaker 2 I don't know, I, I've never understood why we have silos. I think often it's maybe like a top down view as to how the business should be structured. And then it's your role is to fight against that and be quite vocal as to why you think it doesn't work. And I am, I am pretty fetish when it comes to that in terms of speaking my mind. But yeah, if any silos exist, it's your job to break them down. And to really, I think in marketing, you have to be someone that gets on with or like almost everyone across the business because especially if you're in branding, your role is to make sure the the brand is infused through every single touch point, whether that's internal or external. So yeah, you've got to be someone that understands how the entire business works and how all the functions come together. And then what is your role within that? Europe's #2 Pet Food Brand Feels Like a Secret Can you tell me about a time where you've been really bullshit about that? Speaker 2 In terms of bullshit, in terms of like. Speaker 1 Like breaking down silos. It's so I, I get it. It's so real. It's such a like, visceral everyday process, but it's also such a buzzword. Speaker 2 Yes, I can give you a real example of what's happening right now. So, so work at Butternut. We are, I give you a bit of context. So we are the Europe's leading fresh pets brands. So started 20/20/16 and our mission is we want to deliver health and happiness to dogs all over the world. Most people feed their dogs kibble or wet. I don't know if you've ever had a dog growing up. Speaker 3 Got a family dog? Speaker 2 Yeah. So most dogs eat that, eat that way. And actually fresh food is way better for them. It's much more nutritious. It gives them tons more energy. It it just it can help them live longer. That's some of the research that we're hoping to put out in the future. But yeah, it's just overall just much better for for dogs. And so the marketing team is, is split. You've got marketing that do paid and paid social and search. They do influencers, ambassadors and the media plans. And then in the branding creative team, which is what I run, we do the campaigns, the buffer line, the PR, that type of stuff. Paid social is 1 whereby there has been a real silo where the marketing team effectively own that Channel but rely on us to come up with the creative ideas, the shoots and the production. And when I first went in six months ago, it was, it was really quite siloed. And so the way that we've broken that down is really actually quite simple steps that seem very obvious. So weekly performance reviews where we sit together forming what I would call almost like pods. So you have the growth manager with the creative with the copywriter and they work like daily together. It's about really understanding what's driving them and the briefs that they're creating. We have joint combined creative workshops where they're invited to come up with ideas with us. And I think that's very simple steps, but it's made a massive difference. And we're no, we've no but right, we haven't solved the problem. There's AI think paid social like matter is this beast that needs feeding with both quality and quantity, and it is just nonstop. And we have, we haven't solved it yet. But yeah, I feel like we've made some good steps in the last six months. But when you see a silo like you have to, you've got to break it down. Speaker 1 But I love what you're saying, which is the way you break down silos is actually the small, seemingly quite mundane, Yeah, day-to-day little rituals. Speaker 2 It is the day. It's. Speaker 3 Not this like massive dramatic sledgehammer where it's like, hey, leadership, I want you to restructure this team and we're going to give her from completely different job titles. It's just like. Speaker 2 No. Speaker 1 Let's all have a huddle. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And that's what, yeah, there's a risk of overcomplicating things. Whereas it's just we just need to spend more time together and like actually making the time in your diary to do that and making sure that there's the structure and the cadence week to week. Speaker 1 And go find a common language that sticks. OK, so I was so like, we've known each other for a little bit through various, various ways that one might come to know someone else. I mean, I'm way more glamorous than it was. Speaker 2 I think it's through the Marxism Pedamy. Yeah, I think so. Marxism Pedamy. Yeah. Speaker 1 So I make that sound really like salubrious, like we've done. Speaker 2 We met on a night. Speaker 3 Exactly. Like really not. We were just, we're part of a an alumni network. Speaker 1 Because we've both done a scholarship with Marxism Academy. Yeah. And I was so excited to see that you were Button Up like a brand that I've always wanted to know more about. I was like, this is amazing, a really good opportunity to reconnect. I embarrassingly know very little about Button Up. I know. OK, this is what I know. Speaker 2 I know it's. Speaker 1 Sneaky. Speaker 2 Massive. Yeah, that's that's very true. Speaker 1 Like, I know that I feel like I've heard some revenue numbers or I've seen some stats which has like literally left my drawer on the. Speaker 2 Floor, it's doing very well. Speaker 3 Yeah, for a business that feels. Speaker 1 Very familial, very like, safe, cosy, small. All things I'm sure are very intentional, but I remember being like. Speaker 3 Wow, this is a surprise. Speaker 1 And I know that it's mostly D to C. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Speaker 1 I like I'm and I know that my family dog Jerry eats it and looks great. Speaker 2 Oh, I love that. Love that that is. Speaker 3 Kind of all I've got. I'm running out of rope. Speaker 1 So like, teach me a bit about the, the kind of the size of the business, like am I right? And also I'd love to know how you guys do marketing. You've talked briefly about the meta, the hungry, hungry meta beast. Yeah, I. Speaker 2 So I'm in love that you said it feels sneakily big, because that is exactly right. Speaker 1 OK. So, and that's very intentional. Speaker 2 No, I don't think so. So Buttner is, we are the Europe's leading provider refresh and actually in the dog food category overall, we're #3 and in terms of growth, we'll hit #2 next year, which is huge. Speaker 3 Huge, and this is not a small category. Speaker 2 No, we are, you know we're doing we're delivering significant revenues and we're in seven markets across or in the UK. Then also across Europe. We launched in a new market in Europe maybe every six to 12 months. We move quite quickly. We've already we just love launched in the Czech Republic. We have another two markets that we're talking about and I think that where the business has got to is we've really captured all of those early adopters. So either your dog has maybe like stomach issues or just can't eat wet or quick kibble. So we've we've kind of captured all of those and now we're very much about how do we move to that mass market. But I love that you said it feels small. So I've been at Boston for six months, Kate. I'm currently doing a marketing maternity cover, so I'm branding creative Director and that was my perception as well. So I went in thinking it's this really cutesy friendly, and in my mind recently launched business. And then I went in and I went, what do you mean your #3 like growing to become #2 And I think that what's happened, and this is the work that I'm doing at the moment is I think the perception, the external identity of the brand does not reflect where the business has got to. And that's that means I'm trying to solve this year. Overhauling Visual Identity and Brand Platform in 12 Months OK, so, oh, that's fascinating. So your position is that it's a problem that you don't feel like #2 at all, but you're about to be. Speaker 1 Yes. And I came at this thinking, gosh, that's so. Speaker 3 Clever, you know, like my, my, my kind of thinking was this feels like a discovery brand. Still, this feels like a brand that you'd kind of bother. Speaker 1 Like bother telling your mate about because. Speaker 2 It maybe still feels a bit like a secret. Speaker 3 A bit like a secret. You have a strong emotional connection to it, yeah. Speaker 1 All things that I assume you lose at a certain. Speaker 3 Scale as in like yeah. Speaker 1 You know I'm not going to like tip off my mate about Coca-Cola. Speaker 2 I mean, we spend, we have significant marketing budgets and so. Speaker 1 Mainly, you're to be #2. Speaker 2 Yeah. But it's interesting that people still think we're small. So, and I think part of that is there's a couple of things. So one is we have been doing campaigns, the team has been running campaigns over the last few years. But what we've missed is a brand platform. And I'm a really strong advocate for a brand platform. I think if you look to some of some of the really like great brands out there, whether it's Nike, Airbnb, IKEA, John Lewis, brands that have delivered consecutive years of commercial growth is often off the back of a really strong succinct brand platform and button. It doesn't have that right now, which I think has meant that the campaigns that have been done and the activity that has been done has often felt disjointed, a little bit siloed, doesn't really add up to a bigger purpose or vision. And so I think you don't necessarily build the brand equity that that you could be doing. We also haven't been doing a lot of PR and I think PR is massive when it comes to stale at brands that need credibility and trust and that mass awareness. That's something we're also looking at, but it does feel small. And then the other element I see the third element that maybe makes us feel quite small is the design. So the visual identity is very fun and friendly and it's Batty dogs and it's worked really well for the brands for the first nine years. But actually when you kind of look beneath the surface, there's a lack of cohesion, there's a lack of rules. And actually it doesn't reflect where the business has got to. And I think actually this is really common for a lot of challenger brands. You get to your year 789 and you don't, oh God, the brands like we need to grow up, we like, we need to feel a bit more. And it's not maybe it's like sophisticated or a bit more modern or a bit more. It is about like your grown up stage. And so we're right in the middle of that this year. Speaker 3 Wow, this is a lot. A lot of. Speaker 2 Transition our transition periods, yeah. Speaker 3 OK, so you're handling this transition period, but you're on a mat leave cover. Speaker 2 Yes, yeah, let's unpack that. Which is, yeah. I mean, it's my first MAT cover. Speaker 3 And you've gone in all guns blazing. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think with maternity cover, you, you go in and I think there's an expectation that you're just there to steady the ship, deliver what needs to be done. That's already on the road map, look after the team. And I, I should have realized I'm not that type of person. And I did and I did go in and I, and I, I realized quite quickly that the brand has had an amazing journey. The team have done a great job, but they don't have the foundations in place for the next 10 years. And that is what I'm here to do. And the difference with a maternity cover is like, maybe I would give myself normally a year and a half, two years to turn everything around, but I've got 12 months. So in terms of the projects we've got going on right now, we're in the middle of a visual identity project with a design studio called Other Way, right in the middle of an agency pitch. So we'll have a new creative agency in the next two weeks. So I'm really excited about huge new brand platform across the summer, new campaign development across the autumn, new PR agency, new websites. Yeah. Speaker 3 Have you left anything untouched? Speaker 2 No, I don't think so. Yeah, the best, the great thing about Butternut and I think this is also about working with founders is that they're so open to how else things could be. And you know, they the founders have a real vision for where they want to get to. They want to be a multi decade company. And so they're like, yeah, if that's what you think, let's go for it. Let's let's put those foundations in place. So, you know, it could have been an environment where they said no, we just want you to do what's on the road map. But luckily that hasn't been the case. Speaker 3 Because that doesn't sound like it would have gone that well. Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I think, I think as you go in your career, you, you really learn where, what stage of company life cycle you're best at. So some people are amazing at big monolithic companies delivering the plan year on year. I think I'm really good at early stage or in these transition periods where the brand needs a bit of a revamp or a refresh or like a new beginning for the next era. Yeah, I'm really good at those stages. Speaker 3 Great, so now you know know what you're looking for. Butternut Box's Data-Driven Culture and Growth Strategies Yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, what have you really like Celebrated and what you found at Button RI? Think often people come into a business. Yeah. And they do that like, I've been here six weeks and actually it's all really a mess. Like the classic, you know, it's like every new agency comes in and tells you that everything your agency's done before is actually terrible. Yeah. And I think that's like a terrible trope of humanity that we love, like building our own safe space by just being really critical of what's happened before. But I also think there's a magical moment when you come into a business and you you learn so quickly, like that's really working and like the way you do that is incredible. And I will take that on wherever I go next. Speaker 2 There are absolutely elements of that that I found. So the first one is Butternut is obsessed with the numbers, with the commercial drivers of the business. So every Monday and Friday the whole company gets together. Monday it's both in person and remote and the Friday's remote. And we go through all the numbers from literally the amount of tonnage of food we're producing to how many complaints we've had to how many dogs we're now feeding. We go through it in detail so everyone in the business, no matter what level you are, has access that information. It's the first time I've ever experienced it. And I also have meetings throughout the week where we're constantly discussing what are the financial considerations, what are the drivers, where are we, what's next, what else we can be doing. So that rigor I've never experienced before, but it's been, it's been fascinating to see. And you know, I think particularly in marketing, you need to know what the financial levers are that your CEO or your, you know, CFO are thinking about because CMO's, well and CEO's in particular think of the business in terms of like revenue and risk and reputation and retention. And you need to know what those mean. And like there's always been this, you know, the old classic, the marketeers are just the colouring in department. And I don't think that's true. I think you have to understand how the business is running so that you have a point of view and you know how to take your budget and use it for the maximum impact, but also efficiency. So 1, so 1 is the financial and the commercial numbers and the emphasis on that. And then the second thing is that my team are so good at what they do. And so there's twenty of them in the UK and each one is just exceptionally talented. And it's been, I mean, it's great, right? So I always think hire the best people that you can and let them go on with it. And I'm really lucky that I've inherited A-Team this year that are so good at their job. And I'm actually not involved in a lot of the decisions that they make. They might come to me and go. By the way, we've got partnership launching tomorrow and maybe in in, in a different company, you feel like I don't know if I'm like in control or why do I not know about that? But I trust them so implicitly that they will make the right decisions and that they know what they're doing. That it is just a joy. It's like you focus on what it is that you're there to deliver, especially as I've got a 12 month deadline, you know, I can't be involved in everything. So yeah, that the talent in the business has been really surprising, but also just brilliant. Speaker 3 What are the marketing channels that have got bust nuts where it is? Speaker 2 Probably. I would say we have a really strong direct sales team. So I think that's one. We go to a lot of events. May is known as Mayhem, where we're just out and about and actually events are really enough. Speaker 3 Events. Speaker 2 Oh, all sorts like Crufts, so all the dog festivals, festivals where we people might have dogs. Anywhere where you can go and talk to someone about did your dog like their food? You know, just had to start that conversation with people because most people have only ever fed their dogs kibble. So they most people don't even know what fresh is or that there's an alternative way to feed them. So events are a really good way for us to just have that first conversation. Other really big channels for us are refer a friend and paid social paid search. We do do campaigns as well. So we do two big above the line campaigns each year. And then I would say, I mean, we do full funnel marketing. So there's probably lots that I've missed out. We have an ambassador's program, so vets, dog trainers, dog behaviourists. So we really do think about the entire ecosystem of dogs, the dog world. And then I would say in terms of when I look to the future, big channels for us will continue to be campaigns, social, getting our story out there. And then I say the other one is retail. So last year we launched in Pets at Home. We're expanding across Pets at Home in the UK this year. I think in the future there'll be even more retail opportunities and and a chance to do retail differently. So if you think about where you normally buy dog food, it's between the bin aisle and bleach, which when you think about it, actually makes you realize what might be in that food. Yeah. And when Button started, it was like, we want to do this DTC. It's about a personalized digital experience. It's about delivering it right to your door. We make it really easy. So retail, I think, could be a really interesting opportunity, which is like, well, how do we sell our food in that space? What does the the kind of bricks and mortar expression of the brand look like? Can we create a place whereby maybe not in traditional retail stores, but what if we had our own store? Like what if we had somewhere where dog people or people with dogs can come and feel part of the community? And yeah, there's a there's a lot of scope for where we could take it that feels really exciting. Sarah Keegan's Journey Through Transformative Companies That's. Speaker 3 Really exciting. OK, so you have your six months in your mat leave role and maybe maybe this like mat leave. I'm trying to think of like a pithy way of saying it. Like it feels like you're loving mat leave, but you need a context where you can do this like mat leave, storm of fire approach. Like this isn't, you know, Sarah is not available for like hold the four. Just keep it all ticking over gigs. Yeah. Let's talk about your career path kind of to this point, which has been very varied. Speaker 2 It has been very varied, yeah. It's not been linear. So I started off. I think I had a very idealistic view when I left university, which is that I wanted to build brands that should exist in the world. And I've been very lucky that that's been the case so far. So I started off at Oval Energy. We were the first independent energy supplier in five years, and I was there from Week 1 when it was just five of us in a barn to 8 years later where we hit our Unicorn valuation. 1,000,000 customers, 1500 employees and that was just a rocket ship experience for eight years. And when I look back, I mean, I was 24, I was right out of university, not a clue what I was doing. And I was given sole responsibility to set up the marketing function, build the brand and raise the profile of the business. You know, I was like, well I'll just Google how to build a challenge of brands and I read eat big fish and I just got on with it. So I did I did Ovo then I once after eight years. So the the story of Barn to Billion was a nice rapper and I thought time to do something to cast so you. Speaker 3 Plan your life in storylines. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Headlines. Then I I decided I wanted to try consulting, so I took a year out and and did some different consulting gigs. Then I decided I wanted to try some Stratcoms and I made that decision based on a long term view as to where my career might go in the next 10 to 20 years. So I went and did PR in an agency for a year during COVID. My God, baptism of fire. That was well, we can talk about that one in a bit more detail. And then and then actually I'd spent a decade working really, really hard and I actually got very close to burnouts. And so I had to take a year off and I went and lived in Europe for six months, had an amazing time and then came back and I really wanted to work for first two aerospace. So they are a challenge brand. It was founded by Stephen Fitzpatrick who founded Ovo Energy and it was building EU KS first electric sty taxi. So very futuristic, the first of its kind. And I thought, Oh my God, that just sounds so fun. So and a totally different challenge. It was B to B tiny budgets. And so when it did that for three years and then thought I'd learnt, I'd learnt everything that I thought I could learn from that business. And then it was time for something chaos. And now I'm now in Butternut. So I'm very lucky that I've got to work in three amazing Challenger brands so far, which is Ovo, Versatile and Butternut and. Speaker 3 Can I ask a really silly question? Yeah. Storytelling and Funding for Vertical Aerospace's Future What is it? Speaker 2 I get this question a lot. So first, we're building the UK's first sky taxi, so it's fully electric. First we'll take off and landing to revolutionize the way we travel between and within cities. So most, most challenger brands start off from the trying to solve a problem or it's from a founder's deep frustration of something that doesn't work. So Ovo was why is energy company like why is energy so difficult? Butternut is why are we feeding our dogs rubbish? But vertical is why do we spend so much time trying to get around cities? And it's actually like, it sounds very futuristic, but the future is much closer than you think. Like, this is the plane is flying. The tests are happening. And yeah, I mean, it could be in the next 10 years. You, you hail one or, you know, you book a seat like you do in an Uber and you go to a verti port and off you go. You can get from London to Bristol in half an hour. Speaker 3 Well, I remember being in Sao Paulo when I was 19. Yeah. And the sky is, like, thick with helicopters. Yeah. Because that's how the Super rich travel from, like, Sao Paulo skyscraper to Sao Paulo's skyscraper. So. Yeah. Speaker 2 That's so interesting because that's where the idea was born in Sao Paulo. It was the founder was stuck in the traffic jam in Sao Paulo and he thought there has to be a better way. And he saw all the helicopters and he thought, well, that's not sustainable. They're also not that safe, so no. Speaker 3 Because there's so many of them, it must be like, fresh like. Speaker 2 But the the the VX4, which is the plane that first was building, is designed to be as safe as a jumbo jet, as safe as the plane that you would take on your holiday. Speaker 3 And it's the same. Speaker 2 And it's sustainable. It's fully electric, battery powered. Speaker 3 This is insane. I'm going to allow myself. I'm so trying to hold back because I've got I'm just like, what is this? I know I. Speaker 2 Get. Speaker 3 So what amazing Connor off camera is? Speaker 1 We'll have to get this. Speaker 3 Edited in Connor is showing me a picture that's. Speaker 2 I mean, it's just like you'll, you'll have there'll be, yeah, updated videos that you can do. Yeah, OK. Right. Speaker 3 Rabbit hole. That's my evening sorted. Speaker 2 Yeah, I spent three years, very, very early mornings on the runway waiting for it to fly. Speaker 3 And what something that's not going to be a market for 10 years? What are you doing as a marketer? Speaker 2 What are you doing for three years? So when you're working in, in, in an industry like that, it requires an enormous amount of investment to get it off the ground And you're building a business at the same time as building a product, which also is quite interesting. So I had, I had almost like tiny, tiny budgets. My goal there was very much B to B and it was about speaking to investors, media, the government and the industry. And you're basically telling the story of the business and the products to get the funding, to get the support, to get the, the media attention, to get consumer buy in. Because you, you're, you're ultimately you're, you're building, we're building this product, but we also need this infrastructure and the support and the money to get actually make it come to life. So a lot of it was particularly that a lot of it was content and it was about creating. I mean, we've created some amazing videos which will tell the story of the technology, the people, the future, the plane. So we did a lot of that. PR was also another huge channel for us. So bringing down journalists, helping them understand what the technology was, helping to try and buy consumer buying. And then we also did a lot of events, so a lot of industry events where we would go and talk about This is why it's needed, This is why it's different. So yeah, it was, it was very, very heavy on storytelling. And actually, you know, it hasn't gone to market yet. So it wasn't about acquisitions or sales, but yeah, it was quite fascinating. I think the the main thing I learned from first of all is that if you give people impossible goals, more often than not they will rise to meet them. And it's much easier to give a group of people something hard to do to achieve, but it really matters. Then give them something easy to do that doesn't really matter. It's much easier to motivate them about the hard stuff. And yeah, I feel really lucky that I was there to watch it at that early, you know, very, very early days. And yeah, hopefully in a couple of years time, I'd love to get a little black card like they give out Fernando's. Yeah, I don't know if I'll get one of those, but. Speaker 3 Founding employee. Provocative Campaigns That Doubled Business Growth What an interesting lesson in how big marketing is as a function like it's not. It's so not just customer acquisition. We really own how you know if a brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room and the brand and marketing team own that. You do not need to have anything to sell for that to be a huge priority. Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I, I really first was a great example of how it has to be the brand and the products. So if we just run out and said here's a plane, it's going to fly, it's powered by batteries, it's going to fly in and within, within cities. Great. It's it's an interesting product. It's very futuristic, but the branding was about really applying a very distinct visual design. It was about the story, it was about the founder story, it was about the people. It was and you make it something that people are naturally engaged in and they want to find out more and you know it, it was fascinating. Like we would put up a video and it would get thousands and thousands of of engagements because you you're speaking to a very niche group of people. But actually when you speak to a very niche group of people, other people over here want to join in the conversation. So that worked really well for us. It's. Speaker 3 Very interesting. So you've, I'm not going to go any deeper because I'll never stop and just space travel. So you have worked across 3 Challenger brands doing 3 quite different jobs in three very different categories. Yeah. What is the red thread and and what do you like? What do you know and think about how Challenger brands are made? Speaker 2 So the, the the thread that ties the first of all butternut and and over together is that I mean, it's, you know, it's energy, dog food and travel. It doesn't doesn't sound they're not the sexiest of industries by any means, but they are the cornerstones of our lives. So everyone needs energy. Everyone needs to get about a city. And if you have a dog, you know how much they are like the love of your life. Speaker 3 Again, you've got. Speaker 2 To be so they've all been equally fascinating in their own rights in terms of like what really links a challenge of brands. I've always felt that it's a mindset and an attitude, not a market position. I think you can still be a market leader like Butternut is and still be a challenger brands. And what I love about them is that challenger brands often are born out of this deep frustration with either something that's missing or something that could be done in a better way. And they're often human and brave and disruptive and agile and innovative, but what they do at the core of them is they, they really break the codes and conventions of their industry. And I, I love that. I love the challenge and the excitement of being involved in that. So yeah, yeah, the thread is, is definitely. You're always going to need them in your life in some form or or another. Speaker 3 And how do you do challenge a brand marketing well? Speaker 2 Oh, how do I do challenge a brand? That's a good question. I don't think, I think challenge about marketing is the same as marketing in any company in terms of you need to know who you're talking to, what's the insightful strategy, what are your tactics, who you're trying to reach, what's your budget. I think what's different about challenge of brand marketing is that you have this license to be really bold and you have a lot, lot more leeway than more established companies. And over, over was definitely the case. So I did two big campaigns that I think were pretty provocative. And the first one that we did was in 2013, it was called Feel Loved Again. We launched on Valentine's Day and we did a nationwide campaign where we told everyone they needed to ditch the big sticks and break up with their energy company. And so the TV spot was someone in a in a therapy session being counseled to break up with the energy supplier. We did really bold out of home as well and that just had such a big response. So in six weeks we had over 100,000 new customers, which when you're still a relatively small grown company that you know, we basically doubled the business in one year alone and we raised brand awareness from 9% to 24%. So it. Speaker 3 With really disproportionate reach to your spend. Speaker 2 Yeah. And it was because I think we had such a provocative point of view, but we always made sure that that really tightly joined, joined up to what it was that we were selling, what the proposition was. So we did this again in so 2018 at Ovo. We'd just spent the summer figuring out our new purpose and like what the vision was for the business for the next 10 years. And that was fueling human progress with clean, affordable energy for everyone. We were launching a new renewables tariff. And so I care really passionately about the climate crisis. I think we're the first generation to know just how bad it could get, and we're the last generation to do anything about it. And so this was like a, a really important campaign for me. And I wanted to do something that was really provocative and really bold. And I was very lucky that at that time and Common had just launched and they were looking for their first client. And I think they wanted to do something that would really like set out their store as an agency. And it was just this like perfect moment in time. And so we came up with this campaign called Power Your Life Differently. And we the TV spot, we wanted to use heavy metal rock band called Slayer. And then I wanted to use the speech from a film from 1976 called The Network. And the speeches, I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. And it if you do a lot on YouTube, I still think that speech is still as relevant today as it was like 50 years ago. And the weeks I spent in the leadership meeting refusing to back down on those two elements, I was like, we they are essential to the success of this campaign. And yeah, so it was called power Your life differently, really provocative in the social and the out of home as well. So Trump was president at the time. We used melting Trump's in the design. We found a Trump little like smashing up a solar wind like a solar farm. And it just had an enormous reaction. So aside from like all the normal accolades, like we won AD and D pencil, we were the fast ads, fast companies out of the week above Nike and Apple, which for me are like the branding gods, but really like it Just we had, I think it was 46% increase in people that came to the website, but all of them, 100% of them chose the renewable tariff. And I think it just shows that when you make a campaign that's like brave, that's culturally informed, that has a very single minded point of view that links very nicely to like the the proposition or what it is that you're selling. When you tie up all of those touch points, it just always works really well. And I think what is the most important thing about Challenger brands is you have this license to go and do work that really scares you, and it's a missed opportunity if you don't. And we are disrupting people's lives like we are disrupting their attention. So you have to make it worthy of that interruption. Essential Career Advice for Marketing Leaders What? Speaker 3 Advice would you have for someone who wanted to do work that good? Speaker 2 I think it ultimately comes down to, I think it's about finding the right partners. I think if anyone's worked in marketing you, we've all been there when you've maybe got an agency relationship where it's just not quite gelling. Uncommon were the first agency I think I had where it was just this mutual meeting of minds where we both had the same ambition, really wanted to do something that was quite brave. I think you have to have it within you as well to be willing to fight to the end for what you believe in because the the resistance will always be let's make something feel a bit safer. And if it's safer, maybe it will appeal to more people. But that is actually that is never the case. If you try and play it safe, you won't appeal to anyone. You'll just be the mush in the middle. It will never work. So sometimes you have to really stand up for what you what you want to fight for. But yeah, I would say it's a great team. It's about really sticking to your principles. It's about being brave and just having the guts to go for it, you know, Go, go do the work that stares you. Speaker 3 We chatted a bit before we started recording about this transition point from like early stage challenger to leaning into a 10 year vision. And you talk very passionately about brands that want to be around in a decade. Yeah. What are the differences in those two states like? I've never heard that framework before. And I've kind of always thought, well, doesn't every brand want to be around in a decade? Well, Brown wouldn't say that. So help me understand how how and how that's different. Speaker 2 So most, most challenger brands when they launch have an opposition. It's yeah, they have an enemy, they have something they're fighting against. It's David versus Goliath. That's a very standard formula for when challenger brands first launch. And it, and it's useful because it helps set out why you're different, why you've launched over. We did it. We were very much, we were against the big six and you're, it helps consumers understand that you're taking their side because you're pointing out the injustice that you're fighting against. But you know, like people are always intrigued by the fight, but that gets tiring very quickly. It's very difficult to build a long term platform and position off what you're against. And so at some point in your journey, you need to shift to a much more meaningful purpose, which is why why you exist. So Ovo is a really good example of this. We were fighting against Big six kind of six years, seven years in. It was very much shifting away that away from that conversation. I think we shifted away from it actually way, way, way before that. And then the focus for the business became it's about fueling human progress. It's about human progress, it's about renewables, it's about the future. And that became everything that we infused the business with. And I think that's what helps you become a multi decade business. It's you, you naturally go on a journey where it's not what you you're against, it's what you're for. And I think Butternut's going through that transition now as well, where it's not about the fight, but it's not just about the fight against table or wet. It's doesn't everyone want their dogs to be happy and healthy and like, what does that look like? And really, everything we do is for the love of dogs, which sounds a bit cheesy, but I love it. It's. Speaker 3 Very motivating. I'm going to like say that again slowly because I think you've just said something so beautiful that a brand moves from focusing on what they're against to focusing on what they're for. Yeah. And that is the transition that makes you a multi decade brand because you have meaning and purpose and a right to stand like not only in the context of the category in the wider fight. Yeah, I think that's so beautifully put. Speaker 2 Thank you. Speaker 3 And what advice? My penultimate question. What advice has been really useful for you in your career that you think you should share? Speaker 2 Oh I love this question. I know exactly what this is. So the Martin Academy you do on these boot camps. Speaker 3 You do and they're life changing and so weird. That's. Speaker 2 Where you get immersed into the cult of the Academy. And I remember during one boot camp, so Mark Evans can't remember where he was seeing Direct Line. That's it. And he, he said to us something that he had heard, which has always stuck with me, which was most people spend the 1st 20 years of their career and their life chasing success, only to realize with their best years behind them that actually it's about significance. And he said the really successful people, the really smart people know how to chase success and significance simultaneously. And that really stuck with me because I think it's a very easy thing to do to get hung up on the wrong things instead of thinking about what is it that you really want to do? You know, we have a lot of time, but we also don't have a lot of time. So that that's really stood out for me and I can give you a really tactical thing that's helped me. Yeah. So another mentor on the Martin Academy told me to, this is so tactical. She told me to divide up my calendar by thirds. So 1/3 strategy, 1/3 execution and a third people. And then you colour code it and you can see exactly how you're spending your week where you're maybe leaning in too much from things. And it's I put it into place years ago and it still to this day helps me figure out how much time I'm dedicating to, to those three areas. But it works, yeah. Speaker 3 I can see how basically how that tells you that you're not spending enough time on strategy over and over and over again, and why that forces you to fix it. Speaker 2 Yeah, or maybe you're not spending enough time building relationships. Maybe you're not getting enough one to ones in with your team. It really helps you. Just you can picture your your week in advance. Speaker 3 Amazing, what CMO or founder would you like to hear me chat to and I will try and get them. Future Guest and Podcast Community Engagement I I would love for you to talk to Jodie Harrison, who is CMO of Rafa. I have been following her career from afar. I'm a real fan girl. She's worked for some amazing brands. She's worked for Mr. Porter, she's worked for her house. She's worked for Rafa for Bal staff and I think she brings a real creativity and content view into branding. And I'm sure she was just the performance as well, but Oh my God, the brand she's worked for. I would love to hear about her career. And I'm a, I'm not a cyclist, but I love Rafa. I think the content that they do, the brand platform that they have, the community they're building, like, oh, love to work on that brands. Speaker 3 It's a beautiful, beautiful brand. OK, I love that because I also think there's a outside chance I might be able to pull that off. Speaker 2 Oh my God, I love it. I've had some. Speaker 3 Suggestions that have been truly humbling. I'm like. Speaker 2 Like the CMO of Google. Speaker 3 Yeah, just somewhere I'm just like, yeah, you and me both like that would be wonderful. But like, in what world are they going to come round for a cup? I'm kind of just like, OK, let. Speaker 2 Me see what I can do. Speaker 3 But maybe Jodie might say yes, so we will try. Alright, thank you so much for coming. Speaker 2 Yeah, thank you for having me. I love the conversation. That's. Speaker 1 Really fun. Thank you so much for listening. Please do take the action to follow us where you've heard this, whether that's subscribing on YouTube, whether that's hitting subscribe on Spotify, or whether that's following us on TikTok. It makes a massive difference to the quality of guests that we can get involved in the future. If you have an idea of who you would like to hear on the show, please do DM me. We will start planning a new series soon, which is going to be focused on parental journeys. So founders and marketers thinking about parenthood, thinking about going back to work, thinking about the challenges of a stretched work life balance. And as I come out of my maternity leave and start finding my way back into work.