How a Self-Made Billionaire Built Wealth From Nothing | Fernando De Leon

When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Forbes 250, the greatest self-made. And our friend, Fernando, is on this list. Hello. It's the greatest self-made living Americans. Yes. Right? It's just like my friend, Fernando. Our idol. And Oprah Winfrey. I love Oprah. Also, I want to say, Fernando, I think he's number 47 or something. He's like on the first page because it's 1 through 50, but he's above Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't know why you work with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't know. I just think it's really cool. And it is not a competition at all, but I'm just really proud of my friend. All right, Arnold, come on Tire. You're a sister. Defend your title. Defend your title. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Hi, Tiger fam. Welcome to a brand new episode of Tiger Sisters. So you guys have seen our mashup videos, our long form videos, but now we're bringing you a brand new series we're calling Director's Cuts. As you can see, Jean and I are in a brand new studio. We're in a brand new studio. Thank you, Spotify, for hosting us here. And if you guys aren't watching video right now, turn it on because the studio is absolutely gorgeous. It's moody. It's fun. It's serious. And it's perfect for our Director's Cuts remixes. And the lighting is very dramatic in the best way. So what exactly are the Director's Cuts? So basically, it's our favorite interviews brought to you again. And Jean and I will give you the BTS and the debrief after the interview plays. So you guys know that we invite some of the best guests onto Tiger Sisters. And these are some of the conversations where you guys have told us that you love the conversation and you wanted to know more. So this is your chance to get a little bit more BTS, a little bit more insight, a little bit more of our updated thinking ever since these episodes. And also just revisiting the topics and reflecting since it's been like, you know, five months, six months, almost a year for some of these episodes. And we have some like new updates. Yes. And the way that we've been doing this is we've been doing this for a long time. And the way that you should watch this episode is we will go through the original interview. And at the end, Jean and I will have a conversation about our biggest takeaways with the conversation, what we enjoyed about the conversation, things we wish we had asked, and any other follow-up questions we have. So for this Director's Cut episode, we would love for you to watch it all the way through. I think chronologically, it makes a ton of sense that way. But if you've seen the Fernando episode recently, you can skip the episode and go straight to the BTS Director's Cut. Where Jean and I are having our conversations about the takeaways. So you can just take your scrubber, scrub it all the way to the point where Jean and I start talking after the Fernando episode. Okay. So for our first episode, we have Fernando de Leon, who is one of our really good friends. We text with Fernando all the time. And we're always sending each other random articles or just things that are interesting. Isn't he supposed to set you up with someone? Yeah. Wait. That needs to be a follow-up. Okay. You guys will see. In the episode, he said he was going to set me up with someone. Actually, he kind of tried to set Jean up with someone. But we'll talk about that at the very end. Yeah. We'll talk about it at the end. You'll wait to see. In the Director's Cut. But you'll see. Fernando is one of our really good friends. He has an incredible story, which he kind of goes into. But you'll hear in the Director's Cut. We'll give you more background on who he is. But he is a self-made billionaire. Aside from that, all of his amazing professional career accomplishments, literally starting from, from nothing and being where he is today. He is just an incredible person. He is so kind. And like when we were recording this original interview, like we went into the studio and he like introduced himself to all the, like the technician working on the recording. And like he has no ego about him. He is so hardworking. And I listened to this episode recently to prepare for this Director's Cut. And I was just like, I could listen to this 10,000 times and still learn something new from Fernando. Yeah. Because he is so kind. He is just a really sharp, intelligent businessman who, who cares. Yeah. But also like playful and like fun and funny and like easygoing, like when he's not, you know, in the grind. Yeah. But just like a fun person to be around too. So. And so Fernando, if you have any other friends who are also fun, hardworking, but easygoing and funny and also make a ton of money while doing something that they love. We have you. We have. And single. And single. And single. Keyword single. We have a very eligible bachelorette to my left right here. All right. So let's dive into the Fernando episode. They say generational wealth is the key to success. That you need a trust fund or a last name that people recognize. But what if you could build a billion dollar empire in one lifetime? Today's guest didn't grow up with wealth. He didn't have the elite connections. By the end of this episode, you won't just see me. You won't just know Fernando's wild story from crossing borders to building a multi-billion dollar empire. You'll walk away with his top three rules for building and keeping generational wealth. I'm Sheree. I'm Jean. And I'm Fernando. And we're the Tiger Sisters. And I'm the Tiger Brother. I'm intense questions. Intense questions. You are on the Forbes billionaire list with a Forbes self-made score of 10 out of 10, which we love. We looked up in Forbes. We actually looked at the footnotes. And that means you grew up poor and overcame significant obstacles to build your fortune completely on your own. There are very, very few people who have the score of 10 out of 10. Two of them are Oprah, George Soros, and Fernando. All right. Forbes reports that you have a net worth of $2.8 billion. And we're going, one of these. Let's talk about love. Now he wants to talk about love. So can you please introduce yourself to the audience in your own words? Well, I did grow up in pretty complex circumstances. I grew up along the South Texas, Northern Mexico border. So I do think that I am self-made, but I don't sort of begrudge the circumstances. I think they were sort of a real advantage. And I think. Early adversity is probably a huge advantage. I love that. Can you talk a little bit more about this view? It sounds like it's a view that's turned into a value that's really guided you to make the decisions that you've made in your personal life and your business. Overall, my view is that we live in a country where there are no constraints to what you can achieve. It's a simple idea. Most of the constraints that people put on themselves are self-made. This country has a massive economy, a $30 trillion GDP economy. And so there are places, pockets everywhere where wealth can be created. And so if you want to do that, and that's a value or something that you are interested in, there are an infinite, almost infinite number of places to generate wealth. But you have to have the stomach for it. You have to believe in your ability to do that. And then you also have to have. The ability to provide value for others. So if you do something, kind of the way you two do this, you're disseminating information to young men and women about pursuing business, a career, all of these things, they're massively important to people's understanding of how to pursue their goals. And so if you provide that value, you get rewarded. If what you do doesn't provide value to others in society, then you don't get rewarded. It's sort of a very, very fair system, in my opinion. And I think that underpins my pursuit of business creation, is that if we can build businesses with people with stamina, that have the ability to deal with adversity, and that we can provide a value to society, then we'll be rewarded for it. And we've done that a few times. Fernando for senator, for president. No, no, no, no. The opposite. We need, no, what we need to do is create. We need to continue doing what we're doing. And the political thing is way too complicated. That's one thing that people, business people, have not been able to solve, is how to deal with the political chaos of the last few years. Cherie for president? Yeah, Cherie for president. Or at least a governor. Yeah. Why stop there? Fernando, I'd love to go back to the beginning, some of your early stories. Can you talk a little bit bit more about your earliest money memory. Money and wealth was never sort of important for material things. It was important because it provided safety to my family. And so I had early days. My father passed away when I was about 12 years old. And so the family, I was the only American citizen in the family. I could speak English. I had these advantages. I had these things, these tools that the rest of my family didn't have. Because you were the youngest. Because I was the youngest of six. And then the others were, you know, 10 to 16 years older than I was. And so I had this sort of golden ticket that was given to me, right, to be an American citizen. And so I could take the skills that I had and the ability to be in the United States and create, you know, income. And that was important. And so I had to kind of maximize that. You know, when I was about 14 years old, I was a translator. So there were American real estate developers that wanted to build manufacturing plants in Mexico. And they needed, you know, help in translation services and navigating the environment. And I was a kid, but I could help them with that. In one instance, the very first time that I made money, I just got paid, you know, fees for translation services. And it was, you know, a few hundred bucks. But then I kind of realized that what I was doing was more than translation. I was actually giving developers the ability to execute their business plan. And so I thought about it. And I said, well, I really ought to get more. I did. I mean, maybe it was selfish, or maybe it was just I was trying to take care of my family. You were like, my value is higher than this hourly fee. Yeah, my value is higher. And there was a very big moment, actually. My grandmother, who was an extraordinarily tough and resilient woman, she had, she had widowed with seven children at the age of 29. And she was a tough lady in that part of the world, for her to run a farm, a ranch, you as a woman with, you know, seven children, you had to be extremely tough. And she she was she was very well known as a, as a resilient and tough lady, who happened, my grandmother happened to be friends with, a union leader in our town. And the developer that was building a facility, a manufacturing plant, he needed permits, like job permits. And you have to get those job permits from a from a from the union. And so I asked my grandma, I said, Grandma, you you're friends with the with this union leader, right? And she said, Oh, yeah, that that, that man has been in love with me since I was 15 years old. And, and so I, I said, Well, can you set up an appointment for me? So of course, I showed up at this union leaders office. And it was like, out of a Godfather movie, I mean, dark room, he was fidgeting with a gun. I mean, it was it was, it was, and I was, you know, 14 or 15 years old. And their favorite quote was that you come to me. Pretty much. Exactly. And so, so I, I walked in, I, he asked me, my grandmother's name was Amparo. And he says, You're Amparo's grandson, right? And I said, Yes. He says, she called me, I know what you want. I know what you need. And I'll give it to you. And I said, Oh, well, well, thank you. And he said, Yeah, I'll do it. Because I've been in love with your grandmother since she was, since I was 15. And so he says that. And, and so, you know, he writes down in a little napkin, that this should be approved. And then I go to another guy. And then that person was the, his underling and facilitator. And so we had an approval for jobs permits. And I went to the developer and I said, Hey, you know, you've been working on getting these job permits for about a year. What would you pay to have access to these job permits? And he said, Well, you know, if we could partner with this person with them, or, you know, pay X amount, we would do it to get the building permits. And I said, Well, you know, I actually have the permits in my possession. And I, I, I'll take that offer, I'll take 5% equity in in the building. And any, you know, he agreed, we signed it. And we did that, you know, five, four or five more times. And that was the first time I ever owned anything. I was about 15 years old. And, and these buildings were not, you know, they were pretty substantial facilities. They had leverage, they had financing and everything. So, but I learned it. And then I worked for that person for the next four or five years. And I was a project manager, and I was running real estate development deals from his office. And so I was running them, you know, effectively myself as the coordinator and orchestra conductor of, of engineers and architects and construction companies. And that's where I learned the craft as a, as a kid, but I was making good money. But it was important because I could support my mom and, and the family. And that was sort of the, the seminal moment that, you know, that that made me want to generate wealth as a, as a protective measure, not so much for, you know, buying things or whatever, it was really a sort of a protective, protecting the family. That was my 100% of my goal was to protect the family. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less than a week Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Need a hiring hero? It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. And Leon Capital was born. Yeah, technically. On a napkin. Well, technically, you know, Leon Capital wasn't signed into existence until like 2000, 2004. Yeah, 2004. Germination. Yeah, you're right. The ideological germination was there because you're right. What happened was I later when I was working at Goldman Sachs, you know, I said, you know, I want to go back to Texas and do what I was doing before. Like I was good at that. I got to get back. And so yes, you're right that that it was always pulling me to come back to Texas after being on at Goldman. And I, you know, the the idea was had been built or was inside of me and I just needed to get back to it. So you're right. Right. That that that was the origin of who I was. I mean, and that's something you've talked about before. You said company ownership is the most hidden secret in American capitalism. What I mean by that is that I think, you know, you can own a lot of things. You can own ideas, you can own, you can own your time. But the concept of an asset, you're never too young to own an asset. Right. And so I have a I have a nephew um who i told recently he said uncle fernando like what do i how do i start to create wealth and i said hey you know you're renting an apartment go go find a way to buy a townhome a duplex and lease the second half of it and use that to pay off the mortgage for for the two sides and start with that own an asset you know get financing um figure out how to own an asset and so i do think that um asset ownership you know that that asset he will pay it off over you know a 15-year uh loan amortization and he'll own an asset 15 years from now but he's 21 and so he'll be 36 and he'll own an asset and he'll say wow like i i i built something i owned something and it was painful maybe maybe he's got to live you know within his means and save more maybe he can't go to the restaurants and make sacrifices but when he's older he'll he'll be great he'll be glad that he paid off uh an asset and so i think asset ownership company ownership um is is the way that you build um wealth and i i don't i i think it's a simple statement but it's hard to do and and you just got to find the openings to figure out how how to get it for yourself um nobody's gonna you know i can't give you like the the story of what it's gonna be for for anybody except for me right but for others they got to find their own um entry point and and uh and get figure out a way to get a piece buy a stock buy a bond buy a house buy a duplex buy something and then over time make it grow so early on in your career you invested in chick-fil-a when the big guys thought on our research yeah we've done our research um didn't think about that one for a while did you know um when the big guys thought it was beneath them what did you understand that other people didn't see and what's an industry you're investing in now that others still overlook or possibly underestimate oh interesting okay so first of all the chick-fil-a trade was not in the company itself it's that's a private company it's owned by a family family. They, they, as much as any of us would want to invest in Chick-fil-A, you can't. It's owned a multi-generational trust, so that's not going anywhere. But what I did was I said, I think this concept is massive and people love it and they have this connection to it. You know, a large percentage of people surveyed, they go to Chick-fil-A when you ask them if it's fast food, we'll tell you it's not. So it tells you, you know, the service, everything was built with originality. And I wanted to participate in, in that business plan, but I couldn't. So the way I couldn't invest in the company directly. So what I decided to do was I had a piece of land, the very first built, uh, uh, building that I built for Chick-fil-A, I owned a piece of land in San Angelo, Texas, small little town. I had bought some, some land from a bank that had default, uh, borrower had defaulted on a piece of land. And I own these sites all over the state of Texas. And, um, and Chick-fil-A really wanted that site. And I said, well, I will, um, I'll build it for you. I said, no. And we, you know, we traded hard for a while and they finally, um, agreed and we built a building that they leased. And my philosophy of that was to say, well, if I can't invest in the company, but let's say that Chick-fil-A was selling $2 million of, of, of product of chicken there. And I was renting the building for $200,000 to them per year, that means that for every, um, for every 10 pieces of chicken that they sold, one of them was being sold on my behalf because I owned $200,000 of rent as a royalty on a top $2 million sales figure. So I effectively own one 10th of their total revenue production at that site. And, and that was my way to be in business with Chick-fil-A. And I did that with Starbucks. And I did that with many companies around the country, 7-Eleven. I did, I, that was my philosophy about it was if I could own the real estate, I could own the real estate. And I did that with Chick-fil-A. Um, whoever leased it from me was effectively my partner on some portion, um, that came to me through rent. And, uh, and that was just a philosophical, um, view of it. So, so Chick-fil-A, you know, and, and many of those companies early days, um, you know, it was a small deal, you know, giant real estate companies didn't want to go mess with it. They're like, oh, that's beneath me. But I was like, I'll do it. And, and I I'll do, I'll do whatever it takes. So, so we did a lot of it and, and they were fantastic partners. Yeah. And many of those, uh, businesses like, like Raising Cane, 7-Eleven, uh, Chase Bank, CVS, all of these businesses, I built buildings for them and we had great partnership with them. On things that I see kind of that others aren't particularly paying attention to. So out of the real estate business, um, about nine years ago, um, I co-founded a business called Crexie, which today is based here in Los Angeles. And today is the second largest purveyor of commercial real estate data in the country. And so early days, um, nine years ago, you know, somebody said, hey, do you want to own this office building? And do you want, you know, they offered it to me to buy it. And I got to thinking like, what is the opposite of an office building? And I didn't like the office building business. I never did any deals in it because I thought the, the CapEx was too high. I thought tenants would roll over too much. So I, I found the cash flows unpredictable. I didn't like it, but I liked, um, but I said, I want to find the opposite of it. So it was kind of a, you know, sort of a mental game with myself and, and my, myself and a co-founder and a couple other people, we thought about data as the, uh, the best commodity to try to own in commercial real estate. And today we have about 5 million people on the site. We have, uh, hundreds of thousands of subscribers. And, uh, and we have a listing service, um, where, uh, commercial real estate is listed, you know, all over the place. And, uh, and we have a listing service, um, where, Zillow. And then also we harness data, we synthesize it, and then we sell it as lease comps, as sales comps, and information that is really, really important to commercial real estate professionals in order to make decisions about selling a property, buying a property, leasing a property, financing a property, things like that. So we sell information and data to appraisal districts and city governments, brokerage, real estate brokerage companies, groups like that all over the country. And it's become a huge company with about 600 employees, roughly, based here in the LA area. And it's a fantastic business, but we saw it way earlier than many others. And it took a lot of capital to stand it up and to fight through the competitive landscape. And there were massive. Semi-monopolistic competitors that were tough to engage and fight through, and still takes a lot of stamina to fight through that. So yeah, that's one of the things that we saw and that I think we helped build, and it's a massive business, and I'm really proud of the work we've done there. Yeah. I think that's so cool because I think it's such a good example of your business intuition because you came from the world of real estate. That's what you knew, like hard cash. Capital assets, all this stuff. But you were like, "What is a business that I want to get into that I know enough about that I have a competitive edge?" And so you're like, "Data. I want to get into that business." And then you're like, "How can I do it through real estate?" I think that is so. There's definitely a lesson there because I think a lot of people are trying to transition what they do, and they're like, "How can I possibly get into. " Or like even myself, when I worked, I started off working at Goldman, and I thought I was going to work in finance my whole life. And then after two or three years, I was like, "Ehh." Same. Pivot. Hard pivot. Yeah. And I was like, "I want to work in consumer tech. How do I work in consumer tech?" It's like you find the. Entry point. The entry point. Yeah. Yeah. But I will say that I think part of the lesson too, for me at least, was real estate was comfortable, but technology and engineering and software development was not. I was really. I had a discomfort and a little bit of a fear. I can talk about it now. In the moment, I probably didn't internalize the fear that I really had. And so I think that to me, the lesson in many respects is everybody has fear. We all have fear about something, right? Something that we don't understand or don't know. And so what do you do with it? Do you. I think about it and I say, "Okay, well, let me understand my fear. Let me then compartmentalize it and then leverage it so I can adapt around it." But you got to leverage it. If you are afraid to leverage that fear, then you don't go anywhere. I think you get stuck. And so to me, it was always about putting it in a box and saying, "Let's go." Right? Like, "Let's move against that thing and lean into whatever's causing you a discomfort." But you got to recognize it, be a little bit self-aware and fight through it. And I think a lot of people don't want to do that, but you should want to do it. That's how you adapt and evolve and progress in. Yeah. your life journey. Is leveraging it almost like using that fear as motivation? Or how do you leverage it practically? I mean, yes. I think, yeah, I think leveraging it as motivation. But I think also there's almost like a resentment or an anger that you have against a certain weakness. It's like, "You know what? I know it's there and screw it. I'm going to go and fight it directly, like head-on." And who does that? It's tough to do. It's scary. Yes. I think it's leveraging it, it's modifying it, but it's also having a certain resentment that fuels you. So, do you want it or not? And I think the people that succeed are willing to go right at it and fight it with a little bit of anger or resentment or whatever you want to call it. But it's not a soft fight. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not a soft feeling. It is an aggressive feeling, I think. That's the difference. And I would say embrace it. Yeah. Interesting. I'm having so many associations right now. Like, I feel like there needs to be, like, a superhero track theme song, like, going on in the background as you're saying this, because it kind of reminds me of, like, Batman or, like, Batman Begins or, like, The Dark Knight or something. Yes, yes. Where, like, I see Fernando. I see it in you and the way that you're talking about it. Yeah. It's really powerful. Yeah. Because you're just saying it, I'm, like, you know, absorbing everything, but also kind of just, like, witnessing kind of how you work and how your brain works and kind of some – I'm just – it's really admirable that I'm just, like, kind of seeing the power right now. And it feels like The Dark Knight when he's, like, you know – Training. Training. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. I think it is training. You know, your mind needs to train, right? Like, yeah, like, if you've got a soft spot in your body and you physically train for it, it's no different with the brain. Yeah. The brain says, oh, I'm going to do this. The brain says, oh, no, not there. No. That's where you go. And that's not a natural state. It's not a comfortable thing. If you're comfortable, you're not doing it right. Like, it's got to be – it's got to be you, like, suffering through it. I do believe that. And I think that's really hard to do on a self-awareness basis. It's not – it doesn't come naturally. You've got to train for it for sure. A question for you. Maybe – I don't know if this will kind of push you to think a little bit more about the opposite side of that. Yeah. It's like I – I talk to myself with a lot of harshness in a good way, though. Like, I push myself and I'm like, you can do – like, do it. Like, go for it. Is there a softness? I wonder. Is there a voice in your head that also – embraces like the softer, kinder side of motivation? I think so, because it depends on why are you doing it? Like, why are you pursuing that? Is it all about you? It was never about me in the things I tried to accomplish. It was about our family. And so there were, you know, five siblings. And now I have, you know, four children. These things matter in the context of our family. And this is a philosophy of survival, of pursuit, of improvement. And so I think, yeah, if you, it depends on who you're doing it for, right? If you, you know, I bet in your relationship between you two, I bet that there is a feeling of accountability, of not wanting to let each other down, of wanting to pursue together in that journey. So it's not about, entirely about you. It's about both of you and about your family. And, and, um, you know, a certain gratitude that you have for your parents in the effort they put to send you to, you know, good schools and to, and to provide an environment. Like you are a function of those feelings, right? You can't, you can't move those. Um, so I do think that having a cause, um, for others and for yourself and for, um, uh, you know, a company is massively, um, uh, inspiring. And I, I look at our companies, and I, I bet a, I don't know how to quantify this, but a substantial part of my motivation to build a business is that the people that are there, I want them to have good lives. I want to be supportive of their professional development. Like I, I don't want them. I mean, I, I feel like I'm obligated and I am accountable. And so we need to go row in that direction and make that company, that business, our initiative work. And so I don't know that, I think it depends on who the is, is about the people around you. Who are you doing it for and why? If it's, I don't, I suspect that if you're entirely self-centered, you probably don't have the leadership and the charisma to motivate others to come with you in building something. If you're just self-absorbed and you don't have this softer side to, to ask others to come with you, how do you scale? You have to be, you have to be, I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people that control great technologies that can just be total jerks and don't care about anybody but themselves. Um, because our technology is great, but I think for the most part for mere mortals, like, like, like us, I think you, your ability to inspire and motivate others is what gives you operating leverage and allows you, uh, to go forward. So I do think there is definitely a softer side. Need a hiring hero? Check responses, setup required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Hey guys. So it's come to my attention that many of you don't know, Jean and I have a matcha brand called Sisters Matcha that we created and founded ourselves. What? No way. A matcha brand? Yeah. We started it in October, 2024. Jean and I have worked and lived on this matcha farm in Japan. It's sourced from Wazuka, Japan, which is an hour and a half outside of Kyoto. And the brand means the world to us. It is a small family owned farm, and we actually travel back to the farm and handpick the matcha ourselves. So you can find out more about Sisters Matcha to try it, check it out, buy it. Buy it. Definitely buy it. At sistersmatcha.com. That's sistersmatcha.com. And already back to the show. I think it's very cool. Like listening to you speak. It makes a lot of sense in understanding that your original motivation was to provide for your family. And now it almost sounds like you view your company as like your broader family now. And so it's just like scaling up that same, that same like desire from a young age. And now you're just doing it on a much bigger scale. Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of people that have worked with me for 15 or 20 years that are extraordinarily important in my life. And those people, you know, I know, you know, I've worked with them for 15 or 20 years. And I've worked with them for 20 years. And I know their families. And I know what they've done to sacrifice time and effort and, you know, the, the toughness that they've exemplified to build a business. And how could you not be reciprocal? So you Yeah, so I think every every business that we built, there are men and women that have sacrificed time and, and, and their, you know, other things in their life in order to build those businesses. So you have to be I think, I think it's, it's the right thing to do. I think it's the right thing to, to be reciprocal in in having their back. Yeah. Fernando, we're going to go through some more tactics and advice. So if you were starting from zero today, what is the first real move that you'd make to build wealth? The truth is that when you don't have anything, what you really if you don't have capital or resources, right, like you have to figure out how to, to get some. I know that sounds kind of basic, but it's true. Can you find maneuvers and tactics for yourself that aren't about capital? Because if you say, Well, I don't have capital, I don't know how to get it. And then a night so I can't do anything. Well, then you're stuck. So it's, I don't have capital, but I'm going to find a way creatively to accomplish something through an idea, a tactic, some kind of insight, persuasion, charisma, whatever, right, like salesmanship, whatever it takes, and you're going to find a way to maneuver around the opportunity and find value and extract it. That that is something that anybody can do. There are no handbooks for it, there are no manuals for it, but you've got to develop it for yourself. And then it'll manifest itself as value creation that you are able to, at some point, extract. And so for instance, when I, you know, when I first started my career in Dallas, building subdivisions, the first ones was a piece of land, and I didn't have the ability to buy that piece of land and build a subdivision. So I had to go and talk to a land owner and say, Hey, I have this idea for building this land into a subdivision, and I'm going to sell these lots to home builders. And, and I'm going to, you know, these are my, my, this is my, my, my numbers, my, my expectations, would you like to be a partner in this, and they would contribute it into a partnership, or sometimes I would have an option to buy the land, and then go get entitlements or zoning changes from the city. And I could go do that through persuasion, I could convince the city to let me, you know, change it from an agricultural use to a residential use. And then that made the value of the land more valuable. And therefore, I could get financing and limit the amount of capital that I needed. But I think that early days, my, my instincts were about how do I build value? Okay, so this piece of land, I'm an option, right? And if I change the zoning, it's more valuable. What the option contract was a piece of paper. And then I had to convince engineers to do the work without me paying them. And they're like, but you're 24. Why am I listening to you? I'm like, Come on, man, let's do this together. And then it's like, I'll take you hunting or whatever. I did, I took these guys hunting, when they, they did some work for me. And, and they made good money. I ultimately I paid them because I was able to execute on this on this project. But I don't know, like that, that, that isn't a economic thing. It's not a capital constraint. It was just like getting people to agree with you and follow you. And so I think oftentimes, it's about a little bit of tactical creativity and, and finding people that want to advocate for you that person, by the way, that that put that land into a partnership with me. His name is Harold Pullman. And he, he was like, in his early 80s. And he, he actually told me he said that piece of land, can't can't be developed, I started. I, he had come back from World War Two, and had built homes for GIs. And this was a little extra piece of land that he said was unbuildable. And I said, What do you have to lose that if it's not buildable? Let me give it a shot. Yeah. And he said, You'll never be able to do it. And I went and I convinced the Army Corps of Engineers and the city and we, we designed around some of the problems and it took me a year. And, and all of it came together. And he was shocked. He's like, you know, I tried doing that for 40 years. I couldn't do it. But but but you did. And so kudos to you. And so there are things that you can do with work and sweat equity that don't require having, you know, capital day one. So I would say, focus on creativity, persuasion, salesmanship, building something out of nothing is damn hard. But you there are everybody who has built something out of nothing has done it. So yeah, so give it your shot. It actually listening your story reminds me of kind of like our beginning for Tiger sisters because when we first conceptualized tiger sisters we were like actually we want to build tiger sisters as a reality tv show and like we want to bring people along and like have them like learn these business lessons through this reality tv show where we would you know work with all these different startups or different companies and then as we made kind of like our pitch and we started like bringing different people first of all we were like oh wow hollywood is like five different strikes going on not a good time actually the worst time in history yeah reality yeah tv to yeah to life and then the second thing was we were like oh you know what this actually is going to create it requires a lot of capital and also a lot of sort of like ingrained systems and relationships are required to to bring something to life in the hollywood system in the traditional in the traditional way to get it on a streaming service yeah and so we were like okay what can we do that we actually build it on our own terms and we can still achieve the goals that we want which is bringing sort of like education to people in a fun digestible way and we're like let's do a podcast because the barriers to entry are pretty much nothing almost nothing and we started out in our home office actually the kitchen table literally in our kitchen um our dining room table which is very small yeah with these crappy microphones yeah a camera that was four hundred dollars yeah like do not watch our earlier episodes because they are not well produced the way that they are now the information is good yeah the information is good but you know we were great we were iterating on it constantly but if there are obstacles it's to your story and your points like how do you go around it or over it under it but like don't let something like that stop you we heard a lot of no's in the beginning yeah we mourned our reality tv show concept for about like three days and we're like we need to pivot what do we do to actually bring this to life the way that we want to yeah but it's that concept of like taking what you know and like creating some sort of way to bring this to life and then kind of value without having the capital behind it like you don't need to have capital in order to begin yeah no i i totally agree i mean i think there are countless examples of of that situation that kind of situation i think there is a little bit of like self-awareness too of just saying hey um like for instance the brand like tiger sisters the concept right like this was like hey we know who we are yeah and we think this will resonate with the public and then you're authentic right fundamentally that's what people are responding to just like mr polman was responding to my authenticity you know your viewers are responding to saying hey um these two women are you know strong and smart and they're building uh a set of ideas that we can um rally behind and and understand and and the content is valuable to me so i think ultimately by the way the the that last part it's valuable to me yeah is has to be there yeah you can have all the the dreams and the themes but if it's if your viewers find it valuable then you have something that's important ultimately i built homes in that subdivision that were valuable to those people that live there and they went and and um built a family there they built home equity they built net worth through home ownership and that was valuable to to those groups of people and to society so ultimately that last part has to be there otherwise you just you can't you can't fake it right yeah that has to that has to permeate through your through your work yeah i really love that it's like so fundamental but just the idea of like build something of value like so many people start like startup founders i think like forget about that now they're like let me just build something like i want to do something in ai i want to build something ai blah blah it's like okay but is it valuable to people are you building something of value or or or if or for instance the other thing that is done a lot not just in venture but it's um what valuation can i get and then that is just a bunch of group think where somebody says i think is very valuable and they're all in the same little bubble and then when it goes out to people that are going to consume that good or service it turns out that people don't value it the only people that valued it were the ones um you know giving an evaluation of of x or y and then the consumers of that good or service said you know what i kind of it doesn't really give me anything and so and then that that valuation bubble bursts and it happens all the time too um so fundamentally a group of people deriving uh value of time or or anything through that good or service is the only way you get rewarded in capitalism it's fair it's fair it's very very fair i've always thought capitalism is this you know interesting this philosophy that fundamentally has fairness at its value and not everybody agrees with me on that i think um but but i do think that if you give people you may not like the person that created that technology or that idea but why do people consume it because they derive value from it so it's a it has to permeate that otherwise things break down um often very quickly too it's kind of a hot take capitalism is is fair yeah should we wrap up with one one last but when are we talking about love oh do you have do you have some advice for us you have some advice well actually do you want to talk about love i don't know i think for now no one wants to set us up really i mean i will try i will i will i will work really really hard on i guess i let me ask you guys yeah about love okay how how do how do very driven um highly intelligent women how how do you find the way to um sort of properly interact with uh with members of the opposite sex how do you how do you how do you do that when you're when you're living does it does it make it difficult to date you know someone asked me this exact question yesterday too really yeah over instagram um there's a lot of noise and it's actually interesting you know what going back to your earlier point about credentials blinding you i think that's where it can be tough as dating as like a very ambitious women so uh women we like you know going to business school i'm like this is it i'm gonna find you know my partner for life you know in my class i'm gonna find my partner for life i'm gonna find my partner for life i'm gonna find all this stuff but i think also dating at that level um i want to make sure the person that i'm dating is supportive of my dreams goals and ambitions i think that can be tough when i have a lot of them we have a lot of them and someone who's not afraid of that who will support me along the way and also i think there's a lot of noise because at that level i think the people that we're dating are also very successful yeah and um it's a balance and so they have dreams too and so making it all complimentary is yes not an easy rubik's cube and making sure that you know there's no ego when it comes to love yeah um that part i think is really hard and seeing deeply into their heart oh damn if you can you know what you know what's interesting is is um when i first um so i sold a bunch of assets in like 2007 um and then you know when 2008 nicely done well it was a but but but in 2008 um you know i got back into it and the first few deals that i did i struggled and i had a lot of problems and i was really really down and i almost gave up and my um my wife um we were like very recently married um she said um she's like you know shake it off get back up and go go find your place and and i was like no you know i'm just gonna go i'm gonna get a job somewhere and and and not be an entrepreneur anymore and and she said look if you do that i don't think this is gonna we're gonna do we're gonna last and i said why um she said well you're gonna drive me crazy because you have to be an entrepreneur you're never you're never going to be like you know inside an organization and like be a good employee you're going to be a pain in my ass so please go out there and go build a piece of real estate or go do something but go go go uh get back up and do it and and she was doing a little bit to like you know protect her own self from me being you know around the house too much um but it was interesting that she knew me um you know and and was willing like she actually believed in me but she also was pushing me harder than i was pushing myself which didn't happen a lot but in a moment of vulnerability when i was down and like psychologically i was uh vulnerable she was like no we're doing this get back up and she was like you know in your corner in a boxing match and you're kind of getting you know punched around and she's like no get back in there and go fight and and so i do think that that in in in a relationship you have to have a person that that sees you um even in your most vulnerable state and and compels you to to keep going she knew you deeply and we we had only been dating for a couple of years before we got married and so yeah she did kind of know my essence quickly yeah i think it's also it's very funny you know i've been dating for a couple of years because i was telling you earlier i was at a bachelorette this weekend and it was 10 hbs girls and we actually were talking about this we were doing a little bit of like not accounting but we were like talking through all of our friends we're like actually a good number of our friends are the breadwinners within their family unit and it's a lot of people are like you know i didn't think it was going to turn out this way and it's not like my husband is not you know or my partner is not incredibly talented or like successful or something like that it's not like my husband is not incredibly talented or like my husband is not incredibly talented but they're the the breadwinners and talented but they're the the breadwinners and talented but they're the the breadwinners and they are receiving a lot of support from their and one of my girlfriends was like you know i thought it was she's like i always thought it was so important to have a partner who was you know the same sort of credentials like ivy league undergrad you know mba like all this stuff and she's like i actually realized that that wasn't what was most important to me it was like having someone who loves me and understands me deeply and we support each other yeah and so i think that's i don't know yeah that's massive i mean i think that's that's a big chunk of it i think you know there's uh in my case in particular my my wife really was able to interact with my family too and that was super important uh for me because they were so foundational uh as a part of my life and so that was a an important thing and she she took it on as a as as part of her identity and and that was you know super important to me so yeah i mean i think i think the supportive element has to be there you cannot both you know move forward um without a supportive element when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsored jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus money power and love yeah there we go hit them all the trifecta thank you for bringing us back to you know we almost forgot for a second thank you for bringing us back to love yeah i never thought i'd be uh talking about love i've never i've never uh gone down this rabbit hole but um but you know it's good it's a little cathartic yeah and it's also mixing the hard with the soft as a holistic person it's the spice of life it is some life the juice of life hey sheree remember when we first started sisters matcha imagine this gene and i are on a matcha farm an hour and a half outside of kyoto we're in the countryside we're picking matcha leaves working and living on this japanese green tea farm oh my god it was like a freaking dream but i feel like when that dream turned into a reality when it actually became a real business in my mind was when we set up our shopify and we even had a countdown to when our shopify storefront would actually launch i truly think shopify is the best place to start your business because on shopify you own everything you own your storefront you own your relationship with your customers and you own the entire community that you build when someone discovers sisters matcha and actually makes a purchase that relationship feels extremely personal oh i mean literally sisters matcha is a family-owned brand and business and we trust shopify with all of the focus on what's important to us which is building our community and communicating with our customers and bringing the best matcha in the world to you so if you've ever thought of starting something on your own build something that you love get started today at shopify.com slash tiger sisters okay so we have a section called rapid fire where we're going to hear your hottest takes if things are overrated or underrated and yeah this is going to be super fast and really fun so those are the two answers overrated underrated well they kind of depend for each one but it's so that's the concept but yeah you can start yeah you kind of start with that and then explain okay yes all right yeah okay i like this yeah okay first one fernando okay mark cuban business genius or overrated tv billionaire oh man um um okay look let's talk about the facts yeah broadcast.com was and yahoo um wrote down the value of broadcast.com to zero within about a year or year and a half so that wasn't a good one um you know the the idea of um i don't know i i don't know what kind of investments are done on shark tank but it seems to me that they're uh mainly consumer products and and not extremely um scalable businesses and so um maybe maybe i i would take the under on that i like that i like that okay so harvard you went to harvard for undergrad is it responsible for success or just a nice flex are elite schools stepping stones or status signals oh um yeah this one's going to be a little controversial but i actually think that um the idea of a flex and a and a name that comes with your background may often blind you uh to blind spots that are uh that are painful lessons later so you have to be really careful with letting that take up too much of your identity and and so you gotta you gotta manage it um i don't think um i think you know some harm can be done from embracing uh brand identities like that brands are information shortcuts right and harvard is an information shortcut just like any other it's like apple and and every every uh brand out there so um do you do you uh you know fall into it do you embrace it fully and then what do you do when you're in a situation where you're in a situation where you're what kind of implications does that have for your scrappiness and your resolve and going forward does it slow you down a little bit i love that phrase it's information shortcut because we actually do use it that way we've talked about this a lot where sometimes we feel like it's very cringe that we're also we're always like oh harvard and stanford like blah blah blah and we sometimes we're like oh do we over rely on that but it's an information shortcut it's basically just a way for us to be like hey like we're not just talking out of our asses we're actually legitimate and this is why you should you know tune into what we have to say you know my one of the reasons my daughter asked me like is it important dad to get into a good school and i said look it's important in so much as it shows the discipline of you trying to achieve something and getting it done so i think that's important um and so you don't want to be passive and you want to pursue your dreams and if some of that is a great university then go for it no no no judgment but but but then you know once you're out there fighting like did mr polman really care about my harvard degree probably not like he was like hey can you get it done or not and so ultimately it's got to be um you got to execute and and so you know if that's a crutch does it slow you down that's just it's a question and and uh and i pose it for for everybody to reflection for reflection yeah crypto is it a legitimate long-term play or glorified casino oh man you got me this is so fun that's a tough one um you're you're you've been like hacking my emails or something okay so let's see um let's see number one is i used to see in other countries and i grew up around you know straddling two different countries and so in mexico you would see currency devaluations every time a president left so you would see like the treasury rated um reserves uh decrease and therefore the currency of of the country um suffer in value crypto is a great way to store wealth against that kind of thing so in the united states not so much because you know the dollar is a reserve currency but if you live in angola if you live in africa in certain african countries in certain parts of latin america where you have hyperinflation and dysfunctional governments would you want to have crypto and i think i think i would lean towards yes um i i believe in crypto there is a lot of regulatory framework that is immature and needs to be built i think there are for obvious reasons elements of of crypto that are um shady and and uh and difficult uh to navigate and so i think you got to be careful i've invested um in crypto and i did very well but i would say that there was very little fundamentals around it i think you know i got lucky and and i took my wins and and ran with it but but i don't i don't i wouldn't know how to invest in it at a fundamental level i think it would um it would be difficult for me to do that i wouldn't go as far as what you know charlie munger said uh which was that it was you know dog shit but it uh but it but it you know but i think there is a use for in certain you know contexts um but i think you have to tread very very lightly on crypto okay so crypto better than dog shit according to bernadette you heard it here that's what munger said i think i wouldn't go all the way over there and for that as a headline but uh yeah those guys are going to have to wait and see if they're going to be able to do that i guess we're old school or our old school but uh but i think um there is a place for it in some context i think if you went to i mean if you see the devaluations that happen in some countries there are people in nigeria i think um i have a friend that runs a a a crypto exchange company and he says many of the customers are latin america africa asia um so you find those people have you know derive value from buying those stores of wealth and so if they're deriving value then who we to to say that uh that that that there's something wrong with it. So I wouldn't go as far as Charlie did. That's a very practical, very holistic answer. Very, like, capitalism, very international, very, yeah. I could imagine it'd be really useful for, like, remittances, too, now that I think about it. Yeah, I think it has been used in remittances, good and bad, right? That's the catch. And so, like, in many topics like this, it's not black or white, and it is a whole bunch of gray and crypto, and we'll see. We'll see how it evolves. For sure, it's not going anywhere. I think if you thought crypto was dead, you know, two or three years ago whenever we had that bubble burst, I don't think that that's the case right now. Fernando, thank you so much for being here with us and giving us the real talk on money, power, and love. And we always say we want to be the Internet's big sisters and career mentors that we wish we had, and that's really what we got with you today. So thank you for being here and for being, you know, the Internet big brother, like, kind of family that we've built together with Tiger Sisters. I love it. I love it. I'm happy to have been a guest because I think you guys are disseminating and proselytizing great ideas that people can benefit from. Okay, so that was the interview with Fernando. That was, it was spicy, it was entertaining, it was funny. And, okay, so this Director's Cut episode is very topical. It's very timely because we just had some new news about Fernando. Cherie, do you want to share? Yes, so Forbes came out with a new list on April 13th, 2026, and it's called Forbes 250, The Greatest Self-Made. Hello. On the list, number one. Yes. Right? And so Forbes 250, The Greatest Self-Made Americans, and there's a star. Next to if you're a billionaire with a B. Number one is Oprah Winfrey. Our idol. And Oprah Winfrey. I love Oprah. Hi, Oprah. I mean, on this list also, LeBron James, to call out, Dolly Parton, Bill Clinton, J.D. Vance. Okay, I'm just reading as I'm scrolling, guys. Larry Ellison, George Soros, just some of the greats. Yeah, and also a lot of business men and women that are not necessarily as famous, or well-known as some of the ones you named, but are all completely self-made. So that's the whole point of this list. Yes. It was just amazing when this list came out that our friend, Fernando, was on it. He's on the first page, because it's 1 through 50, but he's above Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't know why this is like, why do you bring up Arnold Schwarzenegger? Well, because it's like Fernando is 47, and then Arnold Schwarzenegger is like number 50 or something. I don't know. I just think it's really. That would be cool. Why Arnold Schwarzenegger? Because their names are like very close to one another, and Fernando's above him. And it is not a competition at all, but I'm just really proud of my friend that he's above Arnold Schwarzenegger. All right, Arnold, come on Tire Sisters. Defend your title. Defend your title. Defend your name. Actually, that would be cool, actually. He was the governor. He was the governor of California. I would love to talk to Arnold Schwarzenegger, because he's had such amazing career pivots in his life. Yes. And reinventing. Talk about reinvention. Wait, he was literally a bodybuilder. He was like Mr. Universe or something, right? I will be back. And then he was the Terminator. Yes. He was the Terminator 1, 2, and 3. Yeah. He was like a star Hollywood actor. Yes. And also, I think the co-owner or co-founder of Gold's Gym. Gold's Bodybuilding Gym. Or like an investor. Or something like that. He's like financially. Or sorry, like business-wise involved in it. Oh, I thought he just would go a lot. I didn't know. He goes because he's an investor. I'm pretty sure. Okay, that makes sense. Someone fact-check that. But I know that he's very involved in Gold's Gym. Okay, back to our takeaways with Fernando. My first one was just the update on he's on the Forbes 250 self-made Americans list. And I do think, actually, my comment on that is that that is a cool list that they've started. Like, Forbes is making a lot of lists these days. They got a lot of lists going on. The 30 under 30 list is. Like, I guess respect until someone goes to jail for fraud. I don't know what to make of that. But, like, this is actually a really cool one. I love that they made one that is about. Self-made. People who are self-made. Yeah. Because that is a very, I think, American trait. Yes. It's like the epitome of the American dream. And, like, there's descriptions. If you have a chance to go and, like, look at this list, there's maybe a few sentence descriptions of each of the. Of people who've made the list. And so many of them have faced very early adversity. That's something Fernando talked about in our episode, how he's one of six children. His father died when he was 12. Like, that's really, really hard shit that I don't even know how to kind of, like, comprehend how, like, a child grows through that. And becomes stronger and resilient to become so conventionally successful and also, like, financially successful. Yes. And I think it's very interesting that he was the youngest of six children. And he was the youngest by, like, a lot. Yes. I think he said 10 years or something. His older siblings were, like, 10 or 16 years older than him. Yeah, 10 to 16. And then he was also, I don't know if you guys caught this, he was the only one out of the six children who was an American citizen. Yes. So. Which he clearly said in the episode. He's just like, I had a privilege that none of my other siblings or family members had is that I was the only American citizen. And he could go across borders, literally. Yeah. Into the U.S. Into the U.S. To go to school. Yes. And have a different set of advantages that he used to then uplift his family. So a little bit of behind the scenes. Fernando didn't say this in the episode. But one thing he's told Sheree and I is that when he got into Harvard undergrad, which obviously was, like, you know, the accomplishment of his young life for not only him but his entire family. The first person that he told was the border crossing agent between Mexico and the United States because he was coming home from school. And he found out. And, like, this was someone that had watched him cross the border every single day for his entire life to go to school. Like, literal chills. Like. It's so crazy. That's such a crazy story. The thing is. Like, that's where it needs to be told more. Like, is that not the American dream? It is the American dream. But the thing is, Fernando is also so humble. Yeah. He's so incredibly humble. And, like, he kind of alludes to some of the hardship. But he, like, doesn't really go into it. But he's, like, told us, you know, off camera. Yeah, yeah. And we'll be sharing all his secrets here. But also, like, I, you know, there's, like, this kind of rhetoric now where it's just, like, eat the rich, like, all that. But I'm, like, if there's a billionaire I can get behind, it's the ones that are self-made. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. So, I'm really. I'm just kind of in awe of all that he's accomplished and, like, incredibly proud of him. Yeah. Because you know that, like, he wasn't given anything. But he made the most out of. He made the most out of the opportunities and the, you know, privilege that he was given. I also think, to go back to the idea of birth order, I think there's something interesting there. Because he was the youngest, but he was the only one that had the benefit of being a U.S. citizen. So, in a way, he had the responsibility of being the oldest, like, that he put on himself. Like, he did say he was, like, I felt like I was responsible for. To improve our lot in life. Like, for not only me, but our entire family. Like, all. All six siblings. La familia. I said that to Fernando. It's like a Fast and Furious thing. Oh, it is? Like, la familia. Oh, I didn't know what you were talking about. She doesn't even speak Spanish. I don't. But, yeah. So, like, he had very much that sort of. Pressure. Innate pressure. Yeah. Which I think a lot of immigrants and first generation people feel and put upon themselves. And I would be. To go back to that list of the 250, you know, top self-made Americans. Self-made. I would be very interested to know, of the 250, what percentage are either immigrants or first generation. Hmm. And maybe what their birth order is if they have siblings. Yeah. Because I also think Fernando being the youngest of six, like, you also have a chance to be more entrepreneurial, I think, because you've seen the paths of your older siblings. So, I think there's something there. I don't know. But if there's a data scientist who is watching this episode and can scrape that data from. For all 250 self-made Americans, we'd love to know. I mean, yeah. Just throw it in a cloud. Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Actually, it'd be easy. Gemini. Hey, Tiger fam. Watch this episode on Spotify. If you're subscribed to Spotify Premium, you won't get any Spotify ads on this video. Okay. So, one thing that listening back to this interview that I thought about was that I really liked how Fernando, in this episode, he was really unabashed about building wealth. He was like, building wealth was something that was very important to me, making money, money as a path. Like, he said it out loud. And obviously, it changed his life. It changed the life of his entire family. It changed the life of generations. And now he runs, you know, a massive company with hundreds, thousands of employees who, you know, he basically told us, he was like, I see them as my family, my extended family now, too. And, like, it's. it's important to me to do good by them in conditions continuing to grow the business so that they can change their lives yeah so I just think that's something that I'm starting to be less abashed about embracing that and being like I think especially women who are watching like that's something that we should just say out loud to be like listen it's important to make money like why are we being you know like shy about it like we don't need to be like bashful about it like money is a resource that changes lives it gives you freedom it gives you opportunities it gives you the chance to like pursue your dreams so it gives you a chance to get out of a bad situation so you never have to feel stuck and you have autonomy yeah over your own life yeah and so like I think that's something we've said before like it's very important to have financial freedom but like saying it in the way where it's like you need to make money you need to make money like it like the pursuit of making money is actually something that is valuable and it's not something that you should be embarrassed of yeah I think also I love his point where he wants to make money but he clearly says it is also as a protective measure you know like that is like the umbrella of basically all the things that you just named too I would also call money a protective measure yeah for you know giving you opportunity for living the life that you want for not being stuck in situations like I love how he framed it in that way because I think there is still kind of like a stink to being like societally especially for women to being like I want to be rich I want to make money I want to be financially independent I don't know if people get mad at the last one but I'm like it does sound a little but that's intense coming but you know why because that's because financially independent it only it it sounds like there's a ceiling exactly it sounds like there's a ceiling right like financially independent it sounds like there's a ceiling right like financially independent is like okay like you can afford to go on a vacation yeah whatever but like him being like no I wanted to build wealth yes like that was my goal yeah and he kind of says he like says like well if your goal out there is to build wealth then you should do xyz right so I thought that was kind of cool like it's kind of I don't know it's just give yourself permission to say that give yourself permission to pursue that do you think it's permissive just to be like I want to be wealthy like saying that out loud or is it more like a mindset or yeah when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsored jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome gemini and chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus i think it's both um i think when you say it out loud and you like admit it to yourself then everything sort of falls in line right like i don't know why i always think back to this example but kim kardashian says that from a very young age she always knew she wanted to be famous like that was her explicit goal like she just wanted to be famous and so like for her if she was saying that out loud even though that like that's kind of like a you know like you said like people bristle at it right like kind of a little tacky like you don't want to say it out loud yeah you don't want to say it out loud but she like was very unabashed about it so i think because she was so explicit in that like everything she did aligned aligned to that goal yeah i love that i think you guys will see we're we're gonna do a director's cut episode with suzy welch and this is one of our another guest who came on our podcast who talks about your values dr suzy dr suzy welch um and you know for both gene and me i won't go into too much detail about it but like our top five values one of the shared ones is affluence so like this is something that's really important to gene and me because of like how we grew up um and how we envision our future how we envision our future path yeah like i want to be rich that we enjoy and want to be rich yeah i want to be rich and wealthy i want to be rich and wealthy okay so speaking of wanting to be wealthy i loved the story that he told about how when he was 15 he basically created an asset out of like quote unquote nothing right like he created value yes he got equity in some sort of business because he used the relationship that his grandma had with this like local um um real estate owner like a local whoever gives out the permits the permits so like a local government official government official yeah basically who had a crush on his grandma since she was 15 years old and i just love that example because it really was like he made something out of nothing he like created the opportunity out of thin air and that's why that that's what he was recommending to people right that's what he was saying he was like you need to find some way to create value i also like that he talked about that fact a lot he was like the whole point of like i think he's unabashed about making money and being wealthy because he's like i provide something of value to this world yes right and so like if you do that you will be rewarded yes in many different ways including monetarily yes so i kind of thought that was like i don't know it's just really logical it just made a lot of sense to me i was like i can get behind that and i really love the statement he said around this where he said capitalism is very fair and he's just like this is might be a hot take but he's just like i believe capitalism is fair you might not like the people who um you know are creating products or are business leaders or business owners but if they are creating something of value and consumers and clients purchase or pay for something there is something of value being exchanged and he says that like you know america has like a zillion piles of money pockets where you can create value for someone else we have like a massive gdp like trillions of dollars like there is some sort of niche or pocket you could create value for someone and i just thought that just was kind of inspiring to me like i need that on a talk track every day because i was just like he was able to literally create something from nothing when he was 15 and he was rewarded for that and i'm like why are why am i stopping myself from doing anything there are no limits if fernando could do that in like freaking mexico when he was 15 yeah it also shows he was very scrappy leveraging his scrappiness leveraging his salesmanship leveraging his personal relationships whatever they may be like i just love the hunger in him to do something and maybe it came from a place of desperation maybe it came from a place of need um and not necessarily want but like he has a fire in him and i love seeing him in a place of need and not necessarily want but like he has a fire in him and i love seeing that yeah with people we speak with yeah i think back to that phrase capitalism is apparently fair i think it's interesting because i would not say i would say capitalism is definitely not equitable for sure um i would say is capitalism fair it depends it depends on what you're defining as capitalism because it is such a broad term i think opportunity is not fair but opportunity is not fair i think opportunity is not equal or necessarily fair but i do think the principle of like value exchange of capitalism is very fair oh she says value exchange and i'm not the one with an economics degree here that'd be me that'd be me um yeah i mean i do think you know at least at the very least capitalism is very logical like is that the or is that the right word logical or like formulaic it's like inputs and outputs well so there's my like economics degree right like i can't stop thinking like that it's like inputs and outputs like there is an element to it that is like you can crack the code but is it necessarily fair person to person i guess like the world is not fair right everyone's born into different situations but like seeing like you know fernando as an example you can make the most of the the hand that you are dealt it's definitely everyone has dealt different hands yeah so access to opportunity is very different and maybe the ceiling to which you can climb yeah is is different for everyone given what the cards they are dealt yeah but this is a good example of how like he created his own opportunity out of nothing it's cool it's inspiring it's amazing yeah i need to listen to this episode 10 more times i love it it needs to be my like wake up track i need to hear fernando's voice i'm not even kidding i'm so inspired by it looks really good oh thank you my mermaid hair um also should we share that funny story of like so okay so randomly sheree was like printing out photos at cvs oh my god she had some like extra photos left over right so and it was right after we did the interview with fernando guys you think this is a joke it's really not so like i print out photos at cvs i think it was maybe you know a friend's birthday or something and like you have this package it's like print 20 photos for like five dollars and like i only had like 18 photos to print i was like okay i have two extra photos i might as well print something make the most of my trip to cvs so i'm like looking through my camera roll and then recently we did the interview with fernando so i printed out two photos of like the three of us gene me and fernando like standing up like hanging out and then like i took the photos i was originally gonna like like mail it to him to be like thank you for being on our podcast yeah i didn't end up doing that like i forgot but then i have one of the photos and it's like pasted up next to my like work desk at home because i it's like so random yeah it's a nice little photo but it's just anyway it's like overlooking me every single day while i'm at my office and it's just like kind of hilarious it's hilarious so one concept that really blew my mind was when fernando talked about his experience with chick-fil-a and i think you and i were we were going into the conversation thinking that he had invested in the company that's at least how like i approached the conversation but basically he corrected us he's like there's no way to invest in chick-fil-a that's not actually what happened yeah it's a private company it's a private company i would love to invest in chick-fil-a but i couldn't do it in the conventional traditional way but he was really impressed with the company and um how it runs and so he found a really creative outlet to invest in chick-fil-a but not actually invest so basically he created the buildings and leased out the buildings to companies so in effect they would pay him rent and he would calculate that in his mind to be like the rent you're paying me is basically some percentage of the total profit that you're making so yeah i'm kind of invested in chick-fil-a or you know he talked about like cvs and all these banks and all these other companies he's built properties for but i just thought that was a really creative way to go about it seeing as like jean and i are always saying now like if things are a binary like how do you get things off the binary how do you get creative so that you can get to the outcome that you want so it's either like yes or no i yes i can invest in chick-fil-a no i cannot and he's like no like i'm gonna do it my own way yeah and i'm gonna do it in the way that i know best which is real estate yeah i thought that was so cool and it's kind of inspiring for me that like if i am put up against a problem or something i'm like and it is a binary yes or no or someone says no to me flat out and like am i gonna take that as like the final answer like no no like in my head i'll be like like it's not a or b it's c for sheree well like if things are a binary how do we get them off the binary that's at least i don't think i've actually like done something with that yet but like it's in my mind so if it does come up in the next like several weeks or months like that is what i'm going to be thinking about yeah i mean it is kind of what you've done with your career right more well just you wanted to do something that is helping to educate people right because that's what you were doing at linkedin yeah right she worked on linkedin learning the product platform yeah which is an ed tech platform that had all these like learning modules and different sort of classes on linkedin and that was something that i think was very true to your um character and like your values and then you also are very outgoing and like loved to make content and then that separately was like your sort of like content side career right which you were doing for a while on the side and then this is you found a way to combine them yeah i wasn't like oh i have to do one or the other i have i can do it in my own way yeah and also i think the concept of like uh an education-based influencer wasn't a thing you were one of the very first ones yeah because i think education wasn't fun or sexy um i mean i don't know if it is now but at least like we're trying now education wears a one-shoulder now education where it shows one shoulder and has mermaid and mermaid hair just one but yeah no i think it's it the medium is reinventing itself and i leaned into that and that's kind of voila where we are today with tiger sisters voila okay so the last concept that i want to bring up that fernando talked about was we had asked him we're like something about like oh is it important that you went to Harvard like is it important for people to go to Ivy League schools and his answer was that it is important insofar that having that brand is an information shortcut and I love that phrase and we've like totally latched on to it and started using it you know as our own but originally came from Fernando and he was like it is an information shortcut where it tells people something about you yeah right and you don't need to prove yourself every time you walk into the door if you have that sort of information shortcut to your name so he was like does everyone need it no do some people need it more than others yes but but the other thing he said is that it all doesn't really matter unless you can execute right so like if you are someone that has a Harvard MBA or a Stanford MBA and you're kind of like shit like you're kind of like mid mid or like bullshit and you like can't actually get things done then it doesn't really matter it's actually even worse your credentials can only get you so far yeah well it's even worse because then they're like uh here's this person who has like this Harvard MBA and they're like totally full of shit it's name them who who are we talking about right now does it seem like I'm talking about someone specific kind of um no but I agree with you I like the information shortcut part because that's how people work I another said another way information shortcut something that we learned in business school is borrowed credibility oh that's a little another way to say it I think it's another way to say it it's a little bit different it's maybe adjacent but I think they're very similar what where'd you learn that what class it with Glenn Cramon um my uh writing professor at Stanford what was the context the context is that when you are writing an email a cold email to someone who you don't know and you're asking for something you can say Jean suggested I reach out to you oh yes immediately oh that hits yes or you know but only if Jean has a connection to the person you're emailing yeah and the person you're emailing respects Jean yes enough to then respond to your cold email so it is borrowed credibility and an information shortcut that like connected in some way and um you know you are doing this person of it you know you guys understand and like on that exact topic a lot of times people write cold emails and be like from a fellow Dartmouth grad or from a fellow Harvard Business School grad that is another example information shortcut borrowed credibility it's both things yes yeah also another example of information shortcut slash borrowed credibility one reason why so many startup founders are like hungry to get the named vcs on their cap table the second you have an andreessen a sequoia a light speed yeah like that is borrowed credibility because they've already done well as venture capital firms and it signals something to the outside world so i would say those are kind of some examples of of how it plays out thank you guys so much for tuning into this episode of tiger sisters it is our first ever director's cut episode let us know what you think do you like this format i hope you do because there's more coming your way and do you have any thoughts questions or other people or interviews you think we should go back to and do you know what other questions you have for us we'd love to share them with you and very important if you made it all the way to this part as long as you are not driving take two seconds and subscribe to our newsletter our sub stack the link is either the link is in the description and it's also you this podcast because whenever you subscribe you are notified when a new episode drops it literally only takes like five seconds to subscribe on youtube on spotify and follow us on apple podcasts it really means the world to us yeah we'll give you five seconds now while sheree smiles at the camera all right guys thanks so much for tuning in we'll see you next time bye