How a New Mum and Dad Made an Album While the Baby Slept - Mardi Lumsden on Making Slow Emotion

Welcome back to the Magic of Songwriting. I'm Francesca de Valens, and today's episode is a really special one, not only because of our guest, but because this very conversation sparked the idea for this whole season of deep diving into song demos and the creative process behind them. Today I'm joined by award-winning synth pop artist Muddy Lumsden from Brisbane, whose sophomore album, Slow Emotion, is a shimmering blend of disco, indie pop, and Dreamy's Stargazer anthems. The album was written inside I Hutt Songwriting Club and created in a beautifully unique way, collaboratively and asynchronously with her husband and producer, Penne, often whilst their baby slept. We talk about what that creative process looks like, how it shaped the sound of the album, and we take a deep dive into the evolution of Muddy's favorite song from the record, 19. This conversation really captures the magic of creativity, collaboration, and songwriting in the flow of everyday life. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Magic of Songwriting podcast with I Hutt Songwriting Club. In this podcast, we help you reconnect with and experience the transformation, the joy, and the magic of songwriting so that you can become the songwriter you've always dreamed of being. I'm Francesca DeValentz and I'll be your guide. ♪ Let it go ♪ ♪ I will be your king ♪ Big welcome to the Magic of Songwriting podcast, Muddy and Penne. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having us. Thank you. So I'm really excited to talk about an element of collaboration with you both today. But let's take it right back to how we know each other, Muddy. Do you remember how we met? I don't. I don't actually remember either, but we hung out at Big Sound many times. It was probably Big Sound. I think so. One of the big sounds where we're awkwardly in the corner kind of going, how we meant to be talking to people, how are we gonna do this? And then we need to be. Introverted extroverts, you know. Exactly, I need to say no more. And yeah, every year we just kept seeing each other at the same event, going to different parties within Big Sound. And I think after a time, I came and played a house concert at your home. You did. It was beautiful. You have the most gorgeous home where we actually currently are, with a, tell me about it. Well, it is a converted church in Brisbane. And we were lucky enough to, we live in the church and the hall. So the hall has a stage in it, which is now a part of our laundry. Love it. So I brought a mate, Emma Dean. We were on tour together. And Emma's been a part of the club for a long, long time. She's actually the third person that ever joined the club. Wow. And we did a tour around Australia. And yeah, we came and played at your place as a house concert. And that was heaps of fun. It was great. It's our pleasure. You're always welcome back. Thank you. We love, we don't host house concerts as much as we, you used to, but it's great when we do. We love it. Yeah. So we met then and you became a part of our songwriting club right at the beginning. Do you remember what inspired you to join? I am someone who needs accountability to actually write songs. And so it was just a great opportunity to have a group of fellow songwriters who were all trying to do the same thing. And I love having a prompt as well. Just gives a bit of guidance. Yeah. You're the type of person I created the club for. Who needs that sort of thing. And not everyone writes the same way. But I'm really excited to talk about the different ways you've been writing over the last 10 years. So when I met you, you had released a couple of EPs as a folk artist. And through writing in the club, you wrote your first album. Can you tell us a little about it, the style, when you wrote it, the name of it? Yeah. So our first album is called Hiatus. And it was a collection of songs that I think I wrote over probably close to 10 years. And it got to a point. I'd had a period of time where we bought a church and we renovated it. And we were sort of camping somewhere else for nine months. And then we had a baby. And so life just got in the way of songwriting. And we also work full time. So it was just really hard to finish these songs and to decide that they were a collection. And so in 2015, after we had our son, we went to Italy for two months. And I finished a bunch of songs in Italy. And then Italy was-- It's a way to make a tax deductible. The whole day, isn't it? Well, you'd need to earn enough from songwriting for it to be tax deductible. Dang, unfortunately. But Italy really inspired a few of the songs as well. And as did Bali, actually, two of the songs on the album, Hiatus, were written in Bali. And one of them features a Balinese gummelon that Penny recorded on his phone when he was on a walk. And that's a really cool thing to bring into this little collection of songs, because it's a time and a place. And it was just really beautiful. There were lots of constraint, too. When you're traveling, all we had was a half-size guitar that we found in a shop, because we didn't want to travel with one. And we had like garage band on the iPad. And that was it, really. So that's where Hiatus was recorded on the road. You didn't come back. We came back and polished things up. Yeah, so most of the songwriting that you did was there, wasn't it? I had a season. Yeah, all the songwriting was overseas. So Hiatus, 2020 album. And it's a folk album with electronic elements. Yeah, so dreamy elements. Dreamy elements. I am the folk person in the house. And Penny is very much the 80s synth pop kind of person, being a keyboard player by trade. And it was just a better collaboration, I think, in the production side of things. I certainly wrote all of the songs, but the production was very heavily influenced by some of the things that Penny was doing. To the point where sometimes I would wake up in the morning and he had completely changed the feel of one of the songs. All of a sudden it had like a double drum kit and all of these layered vocals. And I'd be like, holy cow, that's incredible. It's amazing because that little studio room we've got is like three meters from our then zero-year-old son's bedroom. So you're forced into this period of writing through software, you know, in headphones. And I think that changed a lot. Yeah, so, you know, and obviously we didn't have much time together, you know, with a little baby running around, or not even running around. But I think that forces your hand, right, to do things in a different way, yeah. So this album that we're gonna talk a bit more about now that was released in 2023, slower motion, your second album. Well, the collaboration of both of you, much more articulated perhaps in the writing process, is not folk-electronica or dreamy folk. It's quite a departure from that. And I'd love to know about how, why? This came about, how and why this came about. So from being a folk artist for 15 years, to now being an electronic dance music artist, I'm gonna use those words. Just because people out there understand we're in a very different sphere. Yeah, how did this come about? Yeah, so we released hiatus in March of 2020, which was the same week that Queensland went into COVID lockdowns for six weeks. I recognize that we're very lucky that it was only six weeks. But it really changed everything. And it definitely changed the way that I wanted to be making music. It's sort of meant that that album that we had released kind of disappeared. And it just went into the ether and the songs were in the world. But there was no real way that we could promote them or play them live. And there was no way that that was gonna happen anytime soon. Yeah, it had been a severing or everything that came before and it was like, well, this is a whole new landscape. Yeah, and none of us knew when we might be able to do that. Also in the recording of some of these songs, I was a bit concerned about like how will we perform them live? This one has two drum kits on it. And Pennay just kept saying, don't worry about that. Let's just think about what sounds best on the song. So that was kind of freeing as well, because you hadn't solved that. We hadn't solved that problem. And we couldn't solve that problem because we weren't gonna be able to perform them live. The other thing that was going on a lot was just so much negativity in the world. Lots and lots of conservative governments just doing things that I didn't like. And it just felt like a really dark time. And all I wanted to do was to write fun songs that I could dance in the kitchen to. And that would make people feel good. And I think you can see that from a number of different artists. And I think one day someone will do a really interesting study about how 2020 changed the music landscape. That'll probably be Pennay. I've already been done. By you. Academic by day. Music producer by night. People have written a lot about that too, yeah. 'Cause it did change everything, everything. And for us, I remember that quite distinctly, Marty, when I'd be mucking around on a laptop and you'd be saying, yeah, but we're not allowed to do that, essentially. You're not allowed to have double fake instruments that won't work live. And we had to grapple with that for the solve of these. What do you mean by not allowed to? What were you referring to? I was stuck in my head about just how we would pull it off live. And the idea of using any pre-recorded backing tracks was a completely foreign concept. And as a sort of, not a traditional folkie, but as someone who has folk music leanings, it felt a bit wrong. Yeah, it felt like mass-produced artists on a stadium tour. Yeah, you wouldn't expect some kind of indie folk pop duo to be doing that. But I think during 2020 and the subsequent years, there was a lot more permission and probably just in ourselves. We've given ourselves permission to make it easier for ourselves to perform live. Yeah, and you'd been toying with this idea, I remember you saying quite a lot, that why is it, you must have had a sudden realization, why is it that I've always used my weakest link, which is my guitar playing skills, to be the foundation for the song? Yeah, and that was really frustrating me because I'm not a great guitar player. And I probably should have been practicing for the last 20 years. But I always use guitar to write songs on. So this idea that Penne could write me a track and I would write to that was a brand new thing, but it was also really, really freeing. So previously, you would write a song using your guitar, putting typical singer's song right around. And then you would collaborate with Penne Bay, saying make this sound finished. Is that kind of how you would do with that? Yeah, and I always finger-picking too, right? So in Marty's finger-picking, you'd sort of ascertain where the baseline and rhythmic features and how it was all in the finger-picking pattern. And everything was quite restricted to the finger-picking pattern, too. Yeah. And so as a producer working with a folk, a largely folk song, how, you know, I suppose you were limited with what you could bring to that. Yeah, but that's why I really enjoyed hiatus because we started doing things like sampling Marty's guitar or individual notes and putting them through a sample. So I still have an acoustic guitar, but to be able to manipulate it and reverse it and put it through amps and stuff. So we'd been toying, I think, through hiatus on maybe my role becoming less of a kind of just bring your vision to reality, but to sort of muck with it a bit more. So take me, both of you, whoever wants to talk first. Take me through how you went about writing, like from a songwriting point of view of this new album, Slower Motion, and, you know, feel free to use a song as an example if that helps, you know, just offer us a storyline of how that happened. Yeah. So the new album, Slower Motion, all eight songs on that album were written as part of the hiatus songwriting club. Thank you, Francesca. And so I did two, two ten week terms back to back. And I think I wrote 18 songs out of those 20 weeks and eight of them made it on the album. That's amazing, like success rate. Usually it's like four from that. So well done, but you have been writing a long time. I have been writing a long time and it was a really conscious thing that I was doing it to write an album. And we were doing it together as a collaboration in a different way than we ever had before. So you're at home, it's COVID, it's locked down. We're still in 2020 and you both decide, you know, we're going to write an album, is that the thought? Yeah, I mean hiatus had come out and I just needed those songs to be out in the world. Yeah, it was when we had we had the cancel the launch and we're like, oh, well, that's that. Oh, yeah, that's that. That's that. Yeah, that's why we quickly moved on. And I like, I love that album. It's our debut album, but it was a, I guess it's like a postcard to that time. So, and I, and I was like kind of sad about that too. So I just needed, I needed to rejoin the club to get back into my community, particularly with a group of people who I knew, well, most of whom are better songwriters than me. So, you know, you step up your game when you hear other people's songs and you're like, oh, they mean business. And then people giving feedback. I love getting feedback and tweaking things and checking in with other people and just being supported by a community of songwriters who are trying to achieve similar things. Yeah. And that weekly deadline is really good too because it's like you're forced into, that coupled with early production moves and backing tracks and whatever, means you sort of rapid prototyping a finished product really quickly. And so, much more so than ever before, it'd be like, I've got this idea, no, that's bad. I've got this other idea, I'll let's show off that. And we were able to kind of like triage, like in one night we'd triage, you know, a whole bunch of things and arrive at something that when you was going to be okay, which is different to sort of sitting with the guitar part for a few days and then trying to will yourself to make a song out of it. So how would you approach a theme? So you get a theme like a sparkle. So the way I like to approach a theme is as one of my songwriting guru, Scarlet Keys, would say, I like to write about the song before I write the song. So I will do a deep dive on the theme to pull out any, I might do some object writing, like some timed object writing on the theme to pull out any ideas or things that are just in my subconscious anyway that might be related or lines that I like that could go somewhere with a theme like sparkle, I spent a lot of time looking into things that sparkle, what sparkles in a different way to other things. And of course I ended up particularly looking at stars. I think at the time the theme sparkle came out was just after Taylor Swift's folklore had come out as well. So we were listening to that pretty much on repeat. - Miraball. - I particularly loved the song Miraball. And thinking about how she was talking about things sparkling and shimmering and all of those really beautiful textural verbs. And I love a good verb because I'm a total songwriting nerd. (laughs) And then, you know, if you're writing about the song, how does, you know, sound get created? Who's the first sound maker in the Mardi Penne collaboration? It really depends on the song. Sometimes when I'm writing about the song, I might get a melody or an idea of a song that I want it to sound like. But other times, because Penne was working in another room doing other things, he might be playing with a track. And I might say the theme this week is sparkle and he would go off and come up with some like four options for me to choose from. So it was, it's a pretty, it's pretty luxurious. - Yeah. - It's gonna say that sounds like a luxurious songwriting collaboration, right? - And remember, this is all COVID and say there was time to kind of play with, like I was the first time I'd used logic. I'd always been a Pro Tools man. And so it was just sort of learning, you know? Like, I remember sitting there for hours and hours just learning, just trying new different synth sounds, different ways of using samples in a different workstation. And I think that is kind of why we had so many ideas, yeah. - So, did sparkle end in a song? Sparkle did end in a song. Tell us about this song. Sparkle ended in a song called Same Stars, which was towards the end of my first 10 week term doing their club. And it was a song that I really liked elements of, but the song itself just didn't sit right. So I knew that that particular song wasn't going to be anything that we would put on this particular album. I mean, we listened to it the other night again and we were both like, it's not that bad. I mean, it needs a lot of work. But there are elements of that a few weeks later when I got a different prompt that was star. There were elements from that sparkle song that I really pulled from. And both musically and lyrically, I think that's fair to say. - So it's like, you're burrowing from yourself. Recycling an idea and giving it a new lease on life. And what happened with the star song? - The star song became one of my favorite songs I've ever written and that's called 19. - It's a pretty awesome song. Yeah, the opening track of slow motion. - It is the opening track and it was the third track we released out of the eight tracks. - Talk me through how the star prompt, obviously it came from a recycled idea from Sparkle, but how did 19 come to be written and how did you both approach that from a production collaboration, co-writing, you know, you'd not typically been a traditional co-writer up until this album, Penet, and you're a co-writer on every track. - Yeah, it was all about reference tracks, I think. We were listening to different types of music, then and we'd both well and truly fall in in love with Taylor Swift and all sorts of indie artists, I guess. And we'd maybe finally succumbed to the idea of streaming music, like we hadn't done that. So if we'd had decades of listening to, you know, our old songs, like, you know, CDs or whatever. - Yeah. - And eventually, like, I think that's right, isn't it, my idea is suddenly we had Apple Music and it's like, oh well, you can more quickly embrace other styles and sort of reference other tracks. - Right, so you're using the entire music library rather than your music library. - Yeah, yeah. - And able to go down little rabbit holes to find new production ideas. It sounds like you got a little obsessed with different things in this time, am I right? - Yeah, I'm pretty obsessive. - Yeah. - No. (laughing) - Let's call it hyperfocus. - I love it. - Yeah, hyperfocus. I think, yeah, which obviously has pluses and minuses, right? And the worst thing to happen would be that I would be come fixated on an idea, some sort of track that I'd like. And as happened in '19, Marty comes back and says it sounds too much like a 1980s theme song, right? - Yeah, the original version, I was like, I like it, but it's a little bit too much Henderson Kits. - Right, so what were you listening to when you were, who were you referencing when you went down your first idea for? - For '19. - For '19. - I think it maybe it came from that style's, same style's, the track. - Yeah, the earlier track, yeah. - But then it was more around sort of mirrored ball and that sort of thing. And you'll hear it, like, it sounds nothing like that, but it was just a way in, you know? - So let's hear the comparison between same stars, straight into the first iteration of '19, 'cause I think that'd be nice to hear back to back. ♪ Made you wait in the cold ♪ ♪ To watch the stars roam ♪ ♪ The galaxy of mystery ♪ ♪ I'm pretty sure I was more than to it than you ♪ ♪ It's the same stars ♪ ♪ Looking at us ♪ ♪ The same stars ♪ ♪ A shivering path to the door of your heart ♪ ♪ And fighting your way back home ♪ - Yeah, so that's that. Actually, it's, I reckon there's a bit of Phoebe Bridges or something like that. - Yeah, yeah, 'cause there's some sort of little reference there. - Yeah, we were listening to lots of that Phoebe Bridges album as well. - And you mentioned Gamelani just a moment ago when we were talking about hiatus, and is that a Gamelani? - I think that's a little Gamelani. - It's a bit Gamelani, and I think it's-- - Gamelani and Jason. - Yeah, I think it, 'cause it was the first time we were really riding with loops. - Yeah, okay, yeah. - And even if they're loops we'd composed here on the keyboard, it's like quick and dirty. Like how do I get a three minute song in 50 minutes? Just loop. - Yeah. - Yeah. Okay, so that's the song that didn't come to be, but inspired this next. And this is the first iteration of '19. - Yeah, this is really weird. This is horrible. - Okay, let's go. - So this is the backing, doesn't have Marty. This is what it, Marty ended up writing a lot to this, I think. - Yeah, I wrote to this. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - So she got the prompt stars, said Mirable, you win and created that. - Yeah, cool. - So there's guitar like there's guitar in there, but at the same time I was doing a lot of bike riding. And so you force when you're listening to music when you ride a bike, you force into a particular cadence. And so everything was ending up like 95 BPM. It's pretty interesting. Hey. - You took that and you wrote a melody over the top. - Yeah. - And this is the version you submitted to the club. - I think so, yeah. - Yeah, it is. - So this is the Marty as top liner. - Yeah. - Cool. - Yeah. - Yeah, in that instance, that's right. - And you drew your lyric idea from Sparkle to begin with. - Yeah. - But you added a few fun little things, I think that are worth. - Yeah, so the prompt stars immediately, and I don't know why, it reminded me of a story that Penny had told me many years ago that when he was a teenager, he had bought an ex-girlfriend a star from an ad in the TV week. And at the time, I remember thinking, man, I would have loved that if someone had did that for me. And then I thought that would be a cool opening line. But TV week didn't roll off the tongue very well, so I changed it to internet. - I love the opening line from that song. Can you tell us what it is? - The opening line to 19 is, you bought someone a star from some charlatan on the internet. I would have loved that. - I have that on a tea towel. - Yes, you do. (laughing) - That's a great little piece of merch. - Yeah. - That's a conversation starter, isn't it? - It is. - Yeah, it was gonna be on tote bags. - Yeah. - But, you know, too many conversations. - Yeah. - You started when you were wondering around. - Yeah. - You don't want to put a charlatan right there. (laughing) - I was back while you walked around and what a cool neighborhood do you? - Yeah, so the lyrics came from the story of the star you bought. - Yeah, and then this. - And then this beautiful memory I had of us in the early days of dating, where we couldn't afford concert tickets to the big stadium show that we lived right near that stadium. So we would go up on the hill in the car park of this church and have a picnic and have sparklers and dance around up there and enjoy the concert. We couldn't see it, but we could hear it when the wind was blowing in the right direction. - Cute. - And it was just this beautiful thought of how a relationship can grow over time and does change and how you come to grips with that and celebrating young love, but also, you know. - Over time. - Over time. - Yeah, and the bridge really puts us in that place of now. - Yeah, the bridge was the hardest thing to write. - I can imagine actually that would have been a hard write 'cause you wouldn't want to be cliche and you wouldn't want to, you know, I feel like that would have been a hard write. I can appreciate that. - And I only really got it right at the very end. - Well done. - And got it eventually. - Can we hear a little bit of the first demo of "Top Line" that Marty did? ♪ You would have stopped from some charlatan on the internet ♪ ♪ I would have loved that ♪ ♪ I would have loved that ♪ ♪ We looked at him like he hung the moon ♪ ♪ On very own Galileo ♪ ♪ Galileo ♪ ♪ Where we starlit, wrapped around us ♪ ♪ Like we were the only ones ♪ ♪ When you're 19, you think you know everything ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ ♪ When you're 19, you give everything too long ♪ ♪ You know ♪ - This feels more ominous compared to the final version that's the word I would use. - Isn't it fascinating? Like we'll get to that, but I think it's because it's like, you start singing two beats after the chorus. So it's like chorus, one, two. - Where you in love. - Yeah. - So it's got this kind of back foot. - Oh, back foot. - It was all back footed and we knew that it wasn't, we knew that we loved the song, but it wasn't there yet. So then we worked on it for another year. (laughing) - So you got some feedback in the club as well that helped you realize that it's something you wanted to work on? - Yeah, absolutely. And my club group was so good at A's, actually submitting songs, which is a big part of me feeling like a productive member of the group is when most of the group submit songs each week and I know how hard that is. And then when people actually have the time to listen and give really helpful feedback, some great feedback for this particular song was, they didn't know who the he was and who there's a random she, you bought her a star. Who's the her and why don't you talk about her again? I'm like, 'cause she's irrelevant, but I like, I really hear her in the, I really hear your life. - Yes, of course, but in the song. - Yeah. - In three minutes. - Yeah, she's like the second line. - Yeah. - So it was really good to clarify my, what pronouns I'm using and the perspective where the stories, who the story is coming from, who is talking to whom, why? - Yeah, I love those very, very simple questions that are very clarifying if you can answer them. - Yeah. - I think a lot of songwriters just on a quick little side, I know about songwriting, which is not at all a side note, since that's what this entire podcast is about. I think a lot of songwriters don't wanna ask those questions because the realization that I haven't gotten clear on it was gonna take the joy away from writing and I think this is where you hit the next level of joy, is where you can clarify that and you can be discerning to go back and make those carve out the path of the who is talking to whom and why, what are we saying? - Yeah, it's like solving a puzzle. - Yeah, it's next level of joy. - Yeah. - And it's not necessarily fun. - No. - Like, it's really hard work and it can be really frustrating. The rewrites, like actually writing the song doesn't take long for me, it's the rewriting it to get it to a point where I'd happy, I'm happy for other people to hear it. - Yeah. - So tell us about that year long rewriting part. I mean, you weren't working on it throughout the whole year, were you? - No, we were working on all of the other songs. - Aha, okay, and you know, living life, working full time, as I said before. - But then we'd periodically come back as the rest of the album became a bit more electro, then we'd sort of come back and visit this and go, "Oh, what would that sound like if it was a little bit more "in that sound world of synths and whatever?" So you kind of needed to write the other songs in order to come back to this one periodically. - Yeah. - And once we knew what songs would make this body of work, what songs fit together and we'd go back and work on particularly the production elements. - Yeah. - Do you wanna talk a little bit about what we changed in terms of placement of lyrics and phrasing and you changed a couple of the chords as well? And that totally changed the feeling from ominous to joyful, yeah. - Yeah, so like, yeah, so we talked about that, making it back heavy and eventually, it became before beat one. It's like, "When you are, night chorus." So that totally flips like it's anticipatory or whatever. And then we used to have it going from chord five to chord four, which is like a totally illegal, (laughing) which I love. And then we started the chorus on chord two. And which is like a minor chord. So like, again, it totally changed it. - But it results beautifully, five, one afterwards. - Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So like it does take you on a different journey. Yeah, it really does. - But it also holds off the chord one so that it's really satisfying when you hear it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Which can be like, I'm all for instability, but as we're writing quite often, I'm like, "What are you trying to say?" Because like, there's hidden layers. It's like you're singing something happy, but I'm doing chord two. And that's just the joy of it. Like that's so cool. Maybe if we play you an old version of the bridge. - Yes. - And then the newer version. - Okay. - That might sort of help. - All right, let's do that. (upbeat music) ♪ And when you're 19 ♪ ♪ You think you know everything about love ♪ ♪ About love about love ♪ ♪ Love about love about love about love ♪ - It really leaves you hanging. Like there's no resolution. - Yeah. - It can't be. - That could be a good thing. Or we changed it. Which I think worked better. ♪ To find the truth in the ground ♪ ♪ And you grew a life with me ♪ ♪ Can you go back still is it ♪ ♪ Like within when we were 19 ♪ ♪ When you're 19 ♪ ♪ You think you know everything about love ♪ ♪ About love about love ♪ - I like that version. It's got such beautiful symmetry to it. - Do you want to hear the final? - I mean, obviously I've heard it. - Because I've heard it. Because you create the sense of momentum by taking the bar out. - Yeah. - Yeah. - There's this great synth sound that I call the aeroplane, that just sounds like an aeroplane taking off. And it starts in the bridge and it slowly grows until the chorus. And it's so satisfying. - Is it in the final two? - Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's in the final. - I can't remember. - Who knows? But I think that, I think me working out this bridge, I think it was the hardest bridge on the album to write. Because I knew that it had a really great potential to link really well into the chorus. - And to the next chorus. - And I think I might be remembering it wrong. But part of the reason why we moved the chorus lyric forward was so that I could do that in the bridge. - Oh, that makes lots of senses to, like from a singer's perspective. - Yeah. - Because there was this big gap there that I didn't want, and I didn't want to be repeating the line. Like we did when we were 19, when we were 19. Like that makes no sense. Those lyrics next to each other. But if we could combine them, then I would create my favorite bridge. - I love how phrasing changes based on feeling gaps. - And it's surprising to, and the listener doesn't always want to be expecting what's happening. I mean, it's good if a listener, it can be predictable, but I think the key is to be predictable, but surprising at the same time. - I think the two of them together is what I would call satisfying. - Yeah. - So your bridge is satisfying how it rolls into those final choruses. - Yeah, and it just makes sense. Like why wasn't it always like that? Why did it take me a year to figure that out? - I don't know. - And a bit of mucking around, seeing you like this. - I love those moments where you just chop a bit of your vocal, rather than do it live, so we'd never worked this way, writing before, but chop a bit of the vocal and just literally slide it forward for beats. - Yeah. - And just like try out. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So here's the master, like final version of the bridge. - Yeah. - 'Cause it's pretty different. - I think let's go straight into the bridge master, yeah. ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ So we were everything ♪ ♪ About love, about love ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ We give away everything ♪ ♪ Come on ♪ ♪ So long ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ We tell you everything ♪ ♪ About love ♪ ♪ About love ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ We give away everything ♪ ♪ So now we drink better wine ♪ ♪ But we're like ships in the night ♪ ♪ Passing by, passing by ♪ ♪ Her eyes don't shine like the Houston ♪ ♪ Looked at blue screens ♪ ♪ Let's find the time ♪ ♪ To star gaze like when we were 19 ♪ ♪ So we were everything ♪ ♪ About love, about love ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ We give away everything ♪ ♪ Come on ♪ ♪ So long ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ So we were everything ♪ ♪ About love ♪ ♪ About love ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ We give away everything ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ ♪ When we were 19 ♪ Completely different. It's totally different. Yeah. And I think we recognize that it needed to be a bit more rhythmic in the vocal line as well to be different to the rest of the song. Good point. You know, it just, it needed a whole lot of things and it took a year of working on it to figure that out. Good on you. I mean, I think some people kind of go, well, that's all I got, so I'll roll with that, which is actually totally fine as well. Yeah. And then, you know, some people are just perfectionists and so if they can't find the most perfect version, they'll never put it out there. And so I think you've come up with a nice middle ground where you kept working on it and kept working on it and you found something you were really satisfied with and here it is, that we can all hear. Well done. We also, we employed a good friend of ours, Mark Sholtes. Yes. Previously featured on the Magic of Songwriting podcast. Yes. We got Mark into, I call him a songfixer. Yeah. So I got him in to do two sessions with us where we sat down with this into all of the songs that we thought might make it onto an album, which I think was 11 or 12 and got him to give me tips on how to fix them or, you know, what's not working, what is working. And that was really, really helpful to have someone outside of our own collaboration, someone fresh, whose opinion we really respect and the way that he approached a songwriting, you know, through that whole Pat Patterson kind of approach is very much something that how I approach songwriting as well. So, you know, we have a similar musical language going on. Yeah. I understand. That's really smart. You know, you're doing that not for someone to pick for you, which I think some people want, please pick my songs, which ones do you think are the best, which is just kind of getting someone to tell you you're good, whereas you're saying which ones need work, where is the work to be done, and once you find your level of satisfaction with them, and you've already done the work to get to that 11, you know, I think that's really a nice balance again between trying to find the best version of the album versus not getting too stuck in perfection. Yeah. And I think we put it out to a few people, like old band members and whatever, you know, a whole heap of songs, and they all had different answers. So I was like, well, what are you going to do? You've got to please yourself first. And then it's nice to have some input from those you value in terms of ears and background. And yeah, I like it. It seems like a really smart, learned choice to go around recording this album, which, you know, I mean, you've had some great successes from this album. Let's just take it there for a second. You know, success. How do we measure that? Okay, all right. We need to get some philosophical. We can just do the whole. You know, you were added to Double J. Now that's our national broadcaster in Australia. And that's something that a lot of artists would love to be added to. So are you proud of that? Yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, I'm really proud of everything that this album has achieved. And I'm proud that we actually got it out. Because, you know, just getting an album out, I'm proud of anyone who just actually gets an album out, because it's really hard work. Yeah. Getting it to that point. And then for the title track, 'Slow Emotion', to get added to Double J was just awesome, because it just shows that what we're making in our, you know, little studio after our sons asleep can be played next to some of the biggest start of the world. TV bridges. Yeah. And it stands up. Yeah. That's a really beautiful way of seeing it. And I think artists do need to see it from that perspective. You know, you are going to be a contemporary of the big name artists as well, that everybody knows around the world. You are a contemporary of Taylor Swift and Phoebe Bridges and all of the other artists that are on that station. I was kind of more excited to have here, if you need, one of the other tracks used as the podcast music for an ABC sport podcast. You know, it's. What's it? Here, if you need, is a Mamamia. On Mamamia, yeah. Sports women in sport podcasts. Oh, I love that. And here, if you need, I can't remember what the theme was, but the theme of that song is 'Netball'. And I wrote down all of the 'Netball' things I could think of and 'Ball Sport' sayings and just put them in a song about building each other up and teamwork, basically. There are more songs that are needed about sport than there are songwriters that probably like playing sport. That was a massive assumption, but I think we need more songs about sport. Well, I don't. I'm not very good at 'Netball', but I love the sayings. Yeah. And so Mamamia brought out this new podcast just after I released the song, I think, called 'Here If You Need'. And a friend of mine messaged them on Instagram and said, "If this song isn't your theme song, you guys aren't doing your job." That's amazing. And so they messaged me on Instagram saying, "Can we use your song? Can we pay you to use your song?" Yeah. And it was like, it was going to air the next day. Yeah. It was a super, super surprising Instagram message. That's brilliant. What a great outcome from writing that song. I think the theme could have been 'Netball'. It sounds like something. I don't think it was. I think it was. Basketball. There was a basketball scene. It wasn't basketball. It was something about connection or getting drawn into people's drama. Oh. It was something about that. Okay. All right. It does definitely sound like me than a 'Netball' theme. And you guys played at our 10th anniversary showcase party. Well, it was more of a showcase than a party because it was 8 AM. At Big Sound, just gone. Yeah. And it was so great to hear this song in real life. Was this the first time you ever played the album? No, it was the second time, second time. We've played it a few times. Okay. Yeah, we did a gig. I kind of claimed first. No, no. Sorry. Probably the first 8 AM though. We did do a few of the songs at the powerhouse in 2022. And then we did an album launch in our house at the end of November last year. Ah, I missed that. We don't play live very often. Yeah. Because that's not really our mo, and it's hard. You know, it's hard to. You've got it physically. And working and, you know, it's just hard to juggle playing live a lot. So we're not an act that goes on too much. It's just to financially risky for us. Yeah. But we are very happy to be writing the music and making the music. Yeah. And having digital opportunities for the songs to live on. Yeah. I mean, we did. We. I think we played the whole album with a five-piece band. Yeah, we did. So we sort of proved that it does have those like traditional legs where we can, you know, put it into parts. Cute. Yeah. I'm sorry, I missed that show. But thanks so much for bringing the show to Big Sound for our showcase. It was so great. It was really fun. Everyone loved it. I wish there was just more people at that time. At AM. It was. It's great. You know, it was a 24 hour conference pretty much. So it rolls around. Well, at AM worked well for us because we're up anyway. Yeah. And it also meant that Pennay could be in class by 9/20. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you guys are too cute. And so you're looking for the theme of The Netball Song. What was it? Intanglement. Oh. That was. Oh, that was the one. It was like quantum entanglement. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had the birds on the other side of the world to fly in a new direction. And then every bird in the whole world of that same species knows what to do. Yes. And at the same time. That is not the scientific explanation of the entanglement. But at the same time, I was talking to one of my teenage nieces. And she was talking about all this sort of entanglement that her and her friends were in and friendship drama. And I wanted to write something that was. Untangle them to say, "Get rid of the drama." Yeah. And support each other. And then here, if you need, came out. Beautiful. That's beautiful. Did you also call for "Call and Response" in that song? I could, maybe. I mean, I don't memorize 522 themes, but did I? And is it in the song? Well, I'm just looking at Marty's note, since she said in the forum, she said, "Call and Response" is in the instrumentation and the breed. So it sounds like she's trying to justify her assignment. It is something that I do often. Because I think it's a nice audience participation moment and production element idea for, you know, where the song could go if you do take it somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's time to play the whole of 19. We haven't heard it yet. So here they are. Well, the artist's name is Marty Lomston, written by Marty and Penny, called 19. [Music] I think it works on a lot of stuff. From some skeleton on the internet, I would have loved that. [Music] We'll look at you like you hung the moon, my very own Galileo. [Music] You're an octane, tongue tied, drunk or your mother's wine. [Music] When we were 19, saw with you everything about love, about love. When we were 19, we give away everything. So long, so long, when we were 19. [Music] We only took a summer, we entangled each other beneath the Milky Way. We danced on a hilltop of sparkles, dream pop with sleep when we were old. Starlight wrapped around us, like we were the only ones. When we were 19, saw with you everything about love, about love. We thought we knew everything about love, about love. When we were 19, we give away everything, when we were 19. [Music] Now we drink better wine, we're like ships in the night, passing by, passing by. Her eyes don't shine like they used to, look to blue screens. Let's find the time to start gaze like when we were 19. So we knew everything about love, about love. We give away everything, when we were 19. [Music] I think that's the first time we've ever done a dissection of a song, and then played it live. We're not live, but played it in the podcast session. And I love that we get to hear, you know, the chorus coming in before beat one, and the Charleston line in the beginning, and have a bridge, had its evolution. It's so satisfying. Totally not Taylor Swift Mirable. I think it ended up being, is it M-A-D-3, Midnight City, and it ended up being this major reference track. We need a synth opening, we need a synth line. And we need a melodic hook. It's totally different to how it started out. I love that about all, don't be attached to the outcome, because you have no idea where it's going to go. It's the magic of songwriting. I'd love to know for those listening in who might feel daunted about the idea of collaboration and co-writing. What are your greatest challenges? Maybe pick one, and your greatest joys about co-writing and collaboration. You can each have your own opinion on that, of course. You don't have to share that. I think, for me, the greatest challenge is vulnerability. Finding someone that you are comfortable being vulnerable enough with, not only to share the actual writing of the song, but to share the terrible start of the song, when you're writing things that just aren't right. And to be able to write stuff that you know isn't good, to be able to get to the good stuff, you have to be really vulnerable. Yeah, I think that's definitely something I've experienced, and I think a lot of people would have too. Greatest joy. Greatest joy in collaboration would be creating something that I couldn't have done myself. And this whole album is that, because I'm not writing from my weakness guitar. I'm writing from Penny's Strength, which is production. Oh, group hug, you guys. It's lovely. You took the words out of my mouth in some ways. Creativity is this distributed thing, and we are definitely all stronger when we work together, right? So you'd say, like, we're the creatives in this process, but Francesca is 100%. It's a starting point in many ways, and so is the mixer who we recruited from the UK. So is the master, like, it's a network, you know, so is Mark, and so is our son. Like, everyone, creativity is distributed. It's not like you're the sole artist working alone in a Garrett, like, coming up with this idea. And it's kind of, that's been really nice to remember that, I guess, yeah. Yeah. Being part of a community that's bigger than just us. It's not to say it's not, like, because I've been teaching music for 25 years or something. So I do go into music teacher mode. We have to be honest. Is that like, it's not a challenge? Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's not easy, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think, can I add another challenge? Of course. I mean, you guys are married. Still. Still. I think it was something that we both had to get beyond, and we've spoken to other songwriter producer couple. About the same thing. And, you know, when you write a song and you play it to your partner, you just want them to say how brilliant you are. But when your partner is the producer, they're not listening to how brilliant you are. They're listening to what works, what doesn't work. How is that going to work in a production sense? That doesn't make sense. Why are you talking about her when she's not even in the song? And so, they don't necessarily say when you finish the song, they don't say, "Wow, amazing." They'll say things like, and I quote, "It's great, but it doesn't have a chorus." And that particular song that Ben, I said, "It's great, but it doesn't have a chorus." I then went on to write my favorite chorus that I'd ever written to that point. Right. So, thank you and not thank you. Yeah, it's good to be pushed, but you have to just let it go. Sometimes it's like that verse you've been struggling with, I think that actually is the chorus. So, being open to move things around. I can imagine that would be incredibly frustrating. And then at the same time, like, tell between your legs, "Thank you for the suggestion." The frustrating thing with Penne is that he's usually right. So, even though I might go back into my room and spend an hour trying not to do what he suggested, when I finally do what he suggested, it makes it better. It's really annoying. And it's the same for me. I should have learned from Marty and all these people around me. Just press mute on 90% of the tracks you've put in. It will be better. But often it takes an external mixer to do that for you. You're right, aren't you? We're all learning. Yeah. There was a lot more on this album that you can't hear. Well, kiddos, to both of you, for, you know, working together to see it through and still be able to be in the same room as each other and raise a child. I'm just going to get excited by the next album. What if that is? What is going to happen? Is it time to come back and write the next album? Yeah, I've already started. We've got two tracks that are working well. And yeah, I probably do need to sign up for another term and actually get the whip cracked. Get the whip cracked. Look, it's been such an absolute pleasure and joy to hear you unpack how some of this album came about. And obviously to have been a part of a little small part of your journey has been a huge joy. And it's so beautiful knowing both of you. Thank you, Marty. Thanks, Penny. Pleasure. And Francesca, it wouldn't have happened without you, like seriously. Yeah, thank you, I heart songwriting club to you for starting it in the first place and continuing to do it and even though it's probably not the easiest thing to manage. But also to the people who have been in the groups that I've been in, I just so appreciated writing with them and getting to know them. It's been awesome. That's awesome. Thanks, you guys. Good luck for the next one. Thank you. Thanks for joining me for this episode. If you're ready to refine your craft and take your songwriting to new heights, our brand new online 10 week songwriting intensive is the perfect opportunity for you. This fully mentored course gives you the tools, insights and personalized guidance to transform your songwriting. You'll master the art of crafting compelling melodies, deepen your understanding of harmony, and create songs that resonate with clarity and depth. Over the 10 weeks, you'll write 10 brand new songs, and get detailed, actionable feedback from a professional songwriting mentor so that you can level up your writing in ways that you've never imagined. This course is a game changer designed to help you unlock your full creative potential and write songs that truly stand out. For more information, go to iHutSongwritingClub.com/songwritingCourses. Join me for the next episode where we'll explore another songwriter's album journey and uncover the magic behind their creative process. Thank you for listening. It's been a pleasure to spend this time with you. 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