Houston Drug Trafficker Exposes The Hydrocodone Epidemic, Making Millions From The Opioid Crisis

You got on the ground floor of this hydrocoding pill game. I can actually say I witnessed it, and unfortunately contribute to it. You can just make a couple hundred bucks in an hour. It was too good to be true. You never notice you're a drug addict until you want something and can't afford it. So doctors were giving out, like, party bags. He was getting hydrocodone, soma, which is a muscle relaxer. You get Xanx and you get an 8 ounces of syrup and a refill on everything. Man, to the honest thing, doctors, lawyers, everybody. My guest today goes by Jug, a Houston dope boy who made millions of dollars trafficking in hydrocodone pills. Jug is from Louisiana, but relocated to Houston, Texas in the mid-2000s at the beginning of the lean epidemic in that city. But instead of selling lean, which is codine and promethazine syrup, Jug found a huge market for hydrocodone pills. Back in his hometown of Alexandria, Louisiana, he could sell 20,000 pills a day at a $1.50 profit per pill. Killin' him. In fact, Jug and a few others single-handedly created this niche opioid epidemic in Louisiana, the same way that Mike D. did with lean in Houston. This is one of the least talked about, but most profitable and widespread drug epidemics in the deep south during the mid-2000s opioid crisis. I myself had no idea that guys like Jug were moving this way. It's incredible. After getting out of prison, Jug became a legal business owner and is today a successful entrepreneur. He also teaches ex-cons how to get their trucking license, a very valuable skill, so make sure to check him out on socials as well as his YouTube page. Southern culture is so wild, you guys, you're gonna love this one. It's Jug, right here on the connect with Johnny Mitchell. Hey Spotify, thanks for watching. Do me a quick favor and leave a five-star review and drop a comment below. It really, really helps us out. Thanks so much. Enjoy. See you in here, man. What's good on that? Where is Jug? Where does Jug come from? Oh, Jug? My hom--my homie gave me the name Jug. Uh, ex-man. He just called me--I thought he called me Jug, and they say I got a big hit, but I'm a rapper, so that became my rap name. You know what I was trying to think of a rap name, like Jug and I liked it the way it sounded. And then of course, it could cut short to Jug, like-- Yeah. I'm Jug and not an Alexandria, but in Houston, I'm Jug, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, yeah. That was my name. It followed me because, you know that--that was my name. I had a--I had a chain--big old chain of said, too. Nice. Yeah. Were you rapping before the streets, or after you blew up in the game, did you start rapping? Like, how did I-- I used the game to finance my rap career, but I was hustling as since '93. You know what I'm saying? I was hustling since '93. You were a youngster. Yeah. Yeah. In the game? Yeah. My dad brought me my first 10 pounds a week. That's how--you know, that's how I saw my first real thousands through my pops. And you were just like a teenager? I was in the '99 grade. And never forget it. Wow. Never forget it. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. All right. Well, my grandmother used to live in the dope neighborhood. But I'm going to school close to her, so I walked her house out of school. And this crack is everywhere, so we just jump off the porch. And then, you know, I was playing football at a point. And every time I get out of school, my uncle and then we'll be the mate of a couple hundred hours. And I'm just starting. And my teammate picked me up, so I quit football and then went hustling for a time. Yeah. And then I-- Were you blown away by how fast, like, crack was moving? Like, you could just make a couple hundred bucks in an hour? Yeah. Definitely. It was. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, because you saw--you saw, like, the ground floor of the crack game. And then later, when you became an adult, you got on the ground floor of this hydrocoated and pill game. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's kind of a-- A blind exception of it. A blind exception of the epidemic. Mm-hmm. I can actually say I witnessed it. And unfortunately, I contributed to it. You said there was no heroin, because your story is an opioid story. You said there was no heroin in Alexandria, Louisiana, where you grew up. Yeah. But it's interesting, because in Port Arthur, Texas, those were, like, big dope-fiend kind of working-class, port towns, like heroin was big back in the day there. But then just right across the border in Louisiana, they just weren't using it. Well, in New Orleans, they was on heroin-bad, you know, but it's just wasn't in our town. Like, the few people I have heard that shot up--it was shoot up a pill called Delilah. And it was a heavy opioid. But that was the father's ago. They never shot up heroin. You couldn't go nowhere in Alexandria and say, I'm going to give me a four, a ten-dollar four, or whatever, you just couldn't do it. Did crackheads, because you know, like, the way that drug addicts usually operate, it's like you either, like, uppers, stimulants, coke, etc., or you, like, downers, opioids, heroin, pills, whatever. When the hydrocodone became big, thanks to you and others, did you notice crackheads start to leave the crack alone and come over to that, or did those stay two different markets? It was a generational thing. Okay. Explain that. What do you mean? The old-school guys, smoked--you had your pill population. Just say it was about 20, 30 people, just like 50 people in Alexandria, in the pill record. Remember, I was telling you we had the old guys, they're right. So they had, though, they supplying those 50 people, but it's not a big market. And they would drink, sir, I used to hear a whole lot of them talk about sir. They used to have a guy named Killer Brain, and I'm thinking they're talking about pancreas that are like, what the fuck? Until I got older, like, that's what they was talking about. But so they always did it, but it wasn't like, even my whole thing, they snorted power and stuff, but they bricked me, and they got bricks. You see what I'm saying? They had a man in the town, but they would drink, sir. So they experimented with it, but it wasn't a big racket, like it was when my generation was introduced to the pill thing. And maybe the doctor's office wouldn't develop, or the market wouldn't there, and for them to, you know, launch quantity supply. Yeah, because later on, when you really get into it, you have to go to Houston, the huge city, and you're able to go to like hundreds of doctors to get scripts. You can't do that in Alexandria, there's only but so many doctors. Yeah, so you come to Houston and the way you just go, you know what a doctor's office that they hand out flies at the mall everywhere, coming to my pain management clinic. So me, I will go for myself to get a bottle, and then I'm talking to the people, everybody coming out of there, I'm asked, can I buy you back, buy you back, buy you back. And you come up on a thousand, you know, 1200 right quick. No shit. So you just went there? You just went there for yourself at the beginning? Yeah. Because you were sipping. I'm sipping. I'm going to get the drink, and I want to name bottle. We traveling. And music business. We traveling. And shit. So I want, I want my name situation. So if we get pulled over, we don't get enough trouble. But once again, it just took off all of a sudden, we're here, but I want them so it became my business. Okay. So explain that. So you're, you're going around doing shows. Yeah. And obviously like it's, it's hip, it's, it's cool to have lean, it's cool to have drank. Yeah. What does that mean? Your name on it. My name on the bottle. Yeah. Yeah. My name is on that bottle. Because legally, you don't like to have stuff in your head. I won't go to jail for this. Right. You traveling with a group, but you just don't want to, you know, we will ride with paint bottles with no name on it. But if you could, you want a name situation. And you guys didn't look at it like it was a drug addict thing. We was playing us. We haven't had too much money. Like, listen, you know a drug addict can, you never notice your drug addict until you want something and can't afford it. Yeah. No matter what you got the money, you know, what is, what is a drug addict? You think a drug addict is a homeless person, you know, is a person that don't bathe the person that washed cars and get their drug. That's what you're thinking addict is until you have a habit that you can't afford. And then you're like, oh, shit. So you guys were balling off of like weed money and brick money and shit. Weed and brick money. Yeah. And then so the drink was just a hobby. It was like drinking alcohol. The drink was a hobby. It was a culture thing. Like I said, oh jeez, we used to drink, it was a drink, a hydrocodone drink called tussinex. Then you got to permit the single coating drink as purple. Tussinex is yellow, permit the zine as purple. In Alexandria, we did, we favored the tuss more. But when the screw culture came out, we would drink the purple, but it wasn't, that didn't what we wanted. But when the culture came out and it was just more plentiful, you could find a pint of purple. And you know, at the moment, you come down here and ask somebody to get a pint and they don't point you to it. So now we started drinking that a little more, you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So you guys in Alexandria didn't, didn't really drink like that. Like it wasn't an epidemic the way it was in Houston. There wasn't this big market for, when it broke here, it broke there. It wasn't epidemic in Houston. It was just like, nobody, like Mike, they would say nobody thought they was addicted. They just drinking that nighttime when they go on about screw girls, you know what I'm saying? They're not waking up in the morning with the shits that come down the line when you, you know what I'm saying? Did you get addicted? Yeah, definitely. I definitely, but I never experienced like withdrawals in them because I've been able, I was always able to afford my shit, you know what I'm saying? So as long as you can afford good shit, you can avoid withdrawals. Yeah, that's with anything. If you smoke weed, or if you drink beer, if you, if you got money to buy your beers, you're going to get, you're going to be able to take care of yourself. Wow. You have to stop, though. - Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, you gotta get that one. - So you're wrapping and you're killing it, selling weed. - Yeah. - You're moving like hundreds of pounds, tell us about that. - 100, getting about 150 pounds a week and it was ended. Flushing them in about two hours time. - Killing them. - Killing them. - What kind of weed is it? - Regular weed. Back then, the drug was, drug wasn't around like that. - Just like Mexican. - Just like this way, yeah, Mexican skate. But it was good green though, like don't get it twisted to be the best regular you can get, you know what I'm saying? And of course when you buy in that much, like it might be two to three different kinds, but it's gonna be some of that bomb in there. You gotta have that for you, for it to go like it's going for me. - So you had the plug, were you dealing with Mexicans? Who was like-- - I was dealing with Mexicans. - And that's from North Louisiana in the beginning. - Actually. - I never mixed 'cause though, man, I never had plugs. You're going in this business, man. People gonna go to jail, people gonna fall off. I don't have more money than a lot of my plugs. Because they just, you know, raised in Houston and went to school with the guy that got the tons. But they don't have the money to go buy it, you know what I'm saying? So they're making $25, $30 for joint. Or $100, whatever they're making. And I'm coming through spending 50 or 100 racks. So the plug thing, that was, you know what I'm saying? I messed with who had it and then was trustworthy. We had a network, you know what I'm saying? You ain't just going to anybody and going and spending that kind of money. You're gonna run into a brick wall if you do. - And you had your own bank. Like you really, you had the bank role. - Yeah, and the clientele. - Yeah, yeah. - In the beginning, I was getting fronted but it was, came a point in time when I just had to start my own organization. It was just best for me. The pill thing, I could've stayed over there 'cause the weed was convenient, it was fairly cheap and I was making good money off of it. But I just wanted, my pill thing got so big, I just like, I gotta get out of this organization. Because I don't know, no heat from over there to come over here and corrupt what I got going on. - So what year did you have that light bulb moment where you were like, oh, I can buy these, what they call trash, trash pills in Houston and flip them in seconds in Alexandria. These hydrocoding pills. - My take off was $2,000, $2,000, $2,000. - Did you dump them off to some people that liked this shit? Like how do you start a market? Like did you go to Alexandria? - The market was already there, that's what I'm saying. People that probably started it before me. But like I'll tell you the consistency. Like when I got in it, my consistency was like none other. Yeah, it might be people might come through with 20,000 a month. I'm coming through with 20,000 a week because I got the transportation to the average person renegating the situation. - Yeah. - And I wasn't doing a renegade backseat action. I had a real operation. So my consistency was next to none. So for people that don't know, like me, these hydrocoding pills, how many of those would equal, if you're a person taking them to get high, how many of those would equal like a pint of lean? - Probably about 60, I wanna say. - Oh, that's a shit load. - Okay. - So you can see-- - I mean, told them in milligrams, we only speak in a milligrams. - That's what I mean in milligrams. - So for every ounce of coating syrup, it's 40 milligrams and that went in one ounce. That's four pills. So that's why I say about four times, four of it's 48. It's close to 60, right? It's close to 60 pills. - So each pill's about 10 milligrams? - 10 milligrams, yeah. - Okay, that was the beginning. But it had five milligrams, but then if that's done, nobody want it. I'm coming down here. I need 10 milligrams, greens, I need green beans. - Yeah. - It's specific, that's what they was called. Green beans, I mean, men as you can get. And then of course, you can't control what they give when they go to the forms. You're gonna take the blues that come with them and maybe the whites and yellows, but they're gonna not get that mined. You know what I mean? If I get 20,000 green beans, if I got 20,000 green beans, I might have 1500 blues another 1500 yellows and 500 to 1,000 pinks, like that. But majority of them when I'm getting is what I want. - Right, so the people taking these, if they're only 10 milligrams, the average person who's just popping them, you're popping multiples. - Depending on where you're at in your addiction. - Right. - Like I said, you start out taking one. One gets you right, best feeling in the world. But if you've been doing this for 10, 15, 12 years, you see what I'm saying? Now you've got to probably take four or five or 10 on the wake up, like. So you, junkies will wake up in pop 10. - Yeah. - Oh, fucking, I threw it over all. - Wake up to 10, tell me, you know, I ain't never, I never was the loose peel guy. I call them loose peels. I never was the loose peel guy, but I know people who will name them, tell me I'm not going to your dough ring that phone. It's the same with fake Israel. But yeah, man, God's throwing 10 back on the wake up. And they're doing that three times a day. - And you know, so explaining the scales, like it's this is super low dollar, this is super low dollar market. Like you were paying wholesale in Houston, like a dollar or a dollar 50 a pill? - It started out of the dollar. My first situation was a dollar. Pay a, spend a dollar, I will make two, two, 50. But I'm only getting a thousand at this time. Maybe a thousand, two thousand peel. And then as the operation grew, it went up to like 150. You know, I've seen them go as high as $4. We were paying $4,000. At the end, it was $4. And back home, you can only get five on. - Right, so you can bang out about a dollar a pill, maybe a dollar 50 a pill? - That was the average profit margin. But so if you're touching a hundred thousand units, you're making a hundred thousand dollars. - Right. - So I mean, me, that's the equation, but I'm only doing 50 cents if you're coming to Houston to get it yourself. So, but that's the profit margin. If you're coming to Houston, I'm paying 150. I'm selling you for two. You can go home and do what you do. I'm only gonna make 50 cents 'cause you're coming. But if I bring 'em all the way, I'm making the dollar. - See, so 100,000 pills you're making anywhere from 50 to 100 Gs. - Yeah. - But unlike heroin, which a gram of heroin go for $80, $100 in a place like Alexander of Virginia, you got a rob and steal, kill to get that kind of money. Fucking anybody can pay $3.50 or $4 for a pill. - Believe it or not. - So for 10, like the average person, you come up with $10. - Right. - Until they don't cost that no more. See, that's what make the game go up. They just stop costing them 3 for 10. Now they're going up to four and they're going up to this. - So how did you source your pills? Obviously you had runners, but explain that. Like how did you, if you wanted to make a buy of like you needed 10,000 pills from Houston, how did you get them? - I just call my people and they don't call me. It would be like, by the time I'm get to this point, I'm living here, you know what I'm saying? - So they're in Houston. - Yeah, but when they got to that point, well, they come in with 10 a day, I'm living here. And they just gonna call me whatever they get. I got three or four people gonna call me with whatever they come up with in the days time. Rather that'd be 10,000, 3,000, 5,000, a thousand. And that's how it went. You just, you meet people like I was telling you, when you're on ground level, you go on to the doctor, you meet, you gonna meet some bosses. And they'd be like, well, shit, man, I just, you know. And then you go, you got your plug. And then that might not be the only plug 'cause he ain't gonna benefit y'all. He's just gonna be able to get you a thousand a day. And then you get this person and get you 2,000, 3,000. Man, my best plug was females. Females get up early, they on time, and they throw by two o'clock to get them kids out of school. - So then how much did they make? Like what did you pay them for bringing you this stuff? - I'm telling you, I'm paying $1.50 a pound. - Okay, so they were getting it for even cheaper. - Yeah, they paying. Okay, the doctor's visit was $50 back then. They paid $50 doctor visit. You pay the person that you got to go to the doctor for you, $25. And the bag might be $75. - I see. - See what I'm saying? - Yeah. - So they might have 300 dollars tied up in this whole bag. - And how many pills are in the bag? - 120. - Okay. Got it. They got eight ounces of syrup. See what I'm saying? - So doctors were giving out like glad bags, like party bags, cocktails. - He was getting hydrocodone, soma, which is a muscle relaxer. You get the Xanakes and you get eight ounces of syrup and a refill on everything. - And we're surprised now that half of the country's on fat and all. - Exactly. If they're legally, they was legally writing this stuff, man. - Yeah. - In a whole-ass black market. - To my generation. - To my hometown. - Did you see the effects of that in the community? - Not initially. It was a player thing, like, it was just always a player thing and telling it wasn't no more than I moved. So I'm not living there to see, you feel me? The people that's coming to me, to shop. Which I'm going back home, don't get it twisted, but I'm just not seeing that effect. Like, it wasn't until, you wake up one day and like, and it's time fucked up, everybody hooked on shit. You know, they going to methadone clinics and different things. Like, that's when it became real, like. - So it was like a heroin epidemic. Like, you try to get withdrawal from hydrocodone pills. You do have to go to a methadone clinic. - Yeah. - You have to throw up and go through shakes. - You're gonna go to your three days. Oh, you're gonna have to go get something to help you along. That's just, that business, even drink was like, like that, like we would say nobody knew what it was. You didn't know what it was. You're just like, man, somebody, one day I was uncomfortable with somebody told me, like, 'cause I didn't feel like I was addicted and I had 'em. And I'm like, man, I don't feel right, but I'm just feeling funny. And you're like, yeah, some medicine a day. I'm like, man, I ain't doing that. 'Cause it was like, and he gave me one. And I took it and it went away. And I'm like, damn, and that was my first time like, whoa, and I had 'em. I just, I ain't done that year, you know what I'm saying? Like, but the guys selling 'em, like you're dealers, the ones that you were giving 'em to in Alexandria, these were like real drug dealers. - Oh yeah, definitely. - Yeah. - And it made a thousand of peace, man, he's been a 23,000 with you, they ain't no chumps. Like, he's been a big man. - Today's episode is also sponsored by Super Power. I love Super Power. It's a way to circumvent the gigantic healthcare monster that we are forced to live with here in the United States. Super Power is basically a whole new way to understand your health. They either send a licensed professional to your home, or you can go to a nearby lab, and it's one simple lab test measuring 100 plus biomarkers, way more than what you typically get from the doctor. 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Plus, they've got an on-demand care team, so you're not stuck waiting weeks for answers or going down a Google rabbit hole. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with super power. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use code connect for $20 off your membership. That's code connect. And when you sign up, we'll ask him how you heard about superpower, let them know that the connect sent you to support our show. Thank you so much and thank you to super power. - How many people did you have distributing for you? - Man, I had about four people I would deal with to be for real, which-- - That's plenty. - I had about four people that I would deal with in Alexandria and I had about another four that would come to Houston. - Right. - Okay. So it's about eight people told them, they spread out throughout the state and nobody's stepping on nobody's toes. And we eat an old fist. But mind you, it's five to 10 people like me. Like I said, I just got the consistency to nobody got. Nobody got the consistency I got because they ain't got the system I got. - Yeah, your professionalism, I mean, you just, you have a knack for this. - Yeah. - 14 years old and you're juggling pounds of weed. - I don't know. - What would be most different than you? - At 15, 16 years old, I'm getting on the ground, going to New Orleans, getting 10 pounds away from my plops, coming back home, I'm making my operation go until he went to prison at 99. And at that point, I had to, you know, I had to get off that train. - Yeah. But I learned from that. - Yeah, you were, you weren't a dumbass. - My wife today, I met her. She was, she used to take me to take care of my business. And we ended up getting married. - Oh, really? That's just, that's how you guys met. She was like a, she go hoots. - But that we didn't have no connection. Like my best friend was dating her sister. And I'm just on the paper for chase. And I'm like, man, you get me right to bad rules? 'Cause my pops in New Orleans, he gonna be in bad rules. Yeah, I take care. And we got cold like that and shit. 27 years later. - There you go, there you go. It's a street, that's a street love story. So any amount of pills that your runners in Houston would bring you, you get rid of. And that's what's interesting about this phenomenon, this syrup, hydrocoding phenomena is like, there was never enough of it. - Yeah. - It was not a demand problem. It was a supply problem. - It was always, yeah, it was always a supply problem. Never demand. - Yeah. - It's like I said, you could touch down in that time with many as you can count. And you would have enough to supply everybody. Now you might have to expose yourself to, maybe if you've licks that you don't want, like just say you pop up with 100,000 and you try to move them like I do. I'm a two, three I would do. I don't, I don't hold inventory. I didn't have stairhouses. I didn't have, if I pull in with 50,000 pills, they go in and two hours. So just say my, my network won't 10, 10, 10, 10, and I could, but I got 60 extra thousand. Then I might have to go outside of my network to move a few extra type of shit. But I didn't do that two hours because I was just, so you could pull up and just be like, if you needed 60,000, if you needed to dump off an extra 60,000 pills, you could just make a couple of calls and be like, hey, this is what I got. And people would say, I'll take them. - Yeah. - 'Cause it was like, it's like guaranteed money. It's like a guaranteed investment. - It's guaranteed investment. And then there's always people, when you, when you are messing on in the streets, it's always people want to deal with you, but they just can't get to you. So sometimes they get lucky. - Were you taking cash on delivery? - Yeah, I didn't see all the other pills. I would front the way he like, it was a front, but I would you can't, I'd front you the rest. But the pills, absolutely, see all the, yeah. So it's just like, tens of thousands a day you can make. - Yeah. - That's fucking wild. And how did you, you say you had a transport? You had like a, I had a good friend of mine with a truck driver. He would come see me. I don't care where he'd go with. He'd come and see me every Friday. Or maybe earlier, but guaranteed every Friday, he'd come and see me before you go home. And that was how I would give my shit back safely. - Yeah, yeah. - How much would you give him? - What's your man? - How many pills would he bring back for you? - 40, 30,000, 25,000, 40,000, 100 pounds a week. It just depends on what I got this week. How many, what I feel like send him back. But the biggest, the most I've ever sent back was 50 and 150, yeah. It's 50,000 pills and 150 pounds. How much does 50,000 pills look like? - 50,000 pills is pretty big. That's a pretty big, but a small suitcase. The smallest carry on suitcase, that's about 50, that's what 50,000, they look like that. But if you get into Roxas, 50,000 people look like a football. - Why? They're so small, like they ain't got nothing that cut on them, it's like it's different. They're small, they're real small. By the size of it, one carrot, not even one carrot. I have a carrot down there. So it's around 2007, 2008, that the DEA, this starts to become like a federal problem. - Yeah. They just started getting the business at that point. By 2008 and 2009, I wouldn't say '78, 'bout '89 they started getting their business to wear. Yeah, '78 and '89 is to wear it now. They can try it, who won't, 'cause they call it Dr. Sharpen. They created a fucking crime in Houston. It was called Dr. Sharpen. So if you, before they made it mainstream, they would let you go two or three doctors and they would just have a warrant for you, you get full of them, whatever. You're Dr. Sharpen, you've been to three doctors this month, this week or whatever. And that's how people would find that okay, this illegal. - Right. - You know what I'm saying? 'Cause the doctor's greeting, they're writing that paper. And they may know you now when they pick it up, 'cause the pharmacist got connected. That's when they got bad, when the pharmacist got connected. - Right, okay. - The doctor was connected, you were still kind of good. But when they connected the pharmacist, like when every pharmacist could see what everything you picked up, forever. That's when they came with the shit. But the doctor's career, man, that right, you know. Make your algorithm about the money, you know. You got a bad paper. - This sounds like the oxy-cotton epidemic. Like what was going on in the mid-early 2000s in Houston and the deep south, like with the black community. - Yeah. - It was kind of like, sounds a lot like the oxy-cotton boom and the epidemic out of the pill clinics in Florida. - In Florida. - It was the same, we was, they was running parallel. They was running parallel. But they used to call it a male heroine. They was on oxy-cotton. They were oxy-cotton got hot. That's when oxy-cotton got to introduce. 'Cause it's a lower milligram. They was over, OD on oxy-cotton. 'Cause you can get an 80 milligram pill. - Oh, fuck. - So you can imagine, like guys just overdone it. So they did, they, the biggest oxy-coaton pill that you can get now is a 30 milligram. And that's when your Roxas got introduced. And that was around 2010-ish. - Okay. - 'Cause you switched. At the end, like you realize, okay, I can't get enough pills because it's too hard for runners now to go to these doctors. - And you used to take appeals to now. - Right. So it caught on in Houston. - It caught on in Houston to what now they got pier houses. - Right. - People down there taking them loose pills is what I call them. They got loose pier operations. So that go and pee on your business. And you got these pharmacies sink. So it's just sloping. - Meaning like you can't get enough because you have other guys now. - Yeah. - The same guys that was running for me got pier houses. Type of shit. Am I making sense? The same guys that would go get the people and bring me to 3000 pills a day. Now they got pier houses. So they instead of bringing them to me, they just sell them pier for pier 'cause they got a clientele for it now. - Right. - Yeah. - You're not the only guy. - Exactly. - Today's episode was brought to you by hymns, my favorite company. in the world. I have hymns hair spray product in my hair right now. I use it as a supplement to keep my hair strong, but I'm here to talk about the penis, you guys. 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And if that option is a right for you, there are additional treatment options available, so you can find what works best for your body. It's straightforward, transparent, and designed to make getting care feel easy. To get simple online access to affordable, personalized care for ED, hair loss, weight loss, and more, visit hymns.com/connect. Once again, that's hymns.com/connect for your free online visit hymns.com/connect. - Prescription is required. C website for details and important safety information. Sildenafil is the generic version of Viagra, as a registered trademark of Beatrice, specialty LLC. hymns is not affiliated with Orndorce by Beatrice. - Did the rappers get involved in that? The way they did with Drank? - I've also peeled for some rappers. - Yeah, the rappers got involved in that. I've also peeled for some rappers. - But didn't they consider that like successful rappers want the super expensive stuff? - Oh, do you mean taking them? - Yeah, they took them. I told you, they looked at us like we were crazy when we was taking these pills. Now, the same rappers know what you're talking about if you speak up, but we're back in 2005. If I've thrown me a pill back and poured my cup, they were like, "Why are you taking that bullshit?" And I'll be saying, "Why are you taking that bullshit, is that it's, you know what I'm saying?" And I always say, "Worst, this is gonna change your life." And then they started taking them like for six pills. - Really? - Yeah, how's it going on, man? I'm telling you, man. Get your heart in, get your, you can't you keep your heart. Get the fuck out of here, son. - I swear to God, I brought out with the only time I used to do it and then before you know it, they want to do that every night. I know a bunch of dudes got addicted like that. They using these hydrocodone as dick pills and now you're not addicted to 'em 'cause they make you feel good also. After you do your thing, you land back feeling good like shit. I got me a cup on side of the bed and that's how it just exploded. - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah, so that's like, it's like, whatever. It's a mixture of alcohol and ecstasy and biagra. That's what it sounds like this effect is. - Yeah. - And it's so fascinating. - What the, that was a natural side effect of the hydrocodone, the, the, the heart erection thing. That's just a natural side of fate. That's why if you hear heroin people say dope dick. - Right. - That's what the term comes from because opioids keep you erect. - Yeah. - Can we chat GPT that? That doesn't sound right. - I swear to live from Jesus, man. - Can we look that up? - I could call somebody on speaker phone, 20 people and everything. - What, man, I went crazy. Popped a person, went crazy last night. - I mean, I thought when you were dope sick, you couldn't get a heart on. But baby, that's cocaine. - You ain't got it, but you're not. - I'm telling you, when you, when you didn't did your thing and you coming down off that motherfucker, you go home and baby next to you, you right. I'm telling you, dudes, we're taking them like, man, I'm gonna take this out before I go home. And we'll get baby to blues tonight. (laughing) - Yeah, oh wow, okay. So drugs in the opioid, short answer, no. Opiates typically do the opposite. But this isn't, you're not looking up, you're just typing in opiates. Not, you're not typing in the hydrocodone. - Hydrocodone. - Hydrocodone. - Hydrocodone. - Hydrocodone. - Hydrocodone. - Why? - Hydrocodone pills keep you awake. - Okay. - I think black guys just fuck good. (laughing) - Now I'm telling you, a lot of dudes found in this secret, bro. - Speaking of race, which I brought up, found a way to shoehorn in, was there, was this a black community thing, or did it cross racial lines? - Rob racialized. - Okay, first, my first main lick that made me understand market was a white guy who used to front weed to name Adam. He bought him a bottle of pills every two, three days. - Really? - And that's, I'm going getting from the pioneers. I'm going to get up 100 count every, back then he used to sell 100 bottles. They used to come in 100 count in the bottle, sealed up. And I would go get that for him. You know, and I make me $100 off of it, they'd get a fifth or three, settle to him for four, and he'd just take taking them. And that's what made me realize it's a market. 'Cause he's, you know, one went to two, like, because the availability, he wanted them. And back then, I wouldn't even, like, we're taking them, but we ain't strong enough, like, what they got going on, but we ain't, you know what I'm saying? - Right. - Yeah, so my first customer on that was a white guy. - Yeah, it seems like if a pill can sell for $350 or $4, that's a working class. It's just working class. - Mine, I told you I never did the loose pill thing, so for me to deal with him, he had it by quantity. - Yeah, it had to be worth it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like at this time, I'm hustling, you know, man, I ain't moving for less than a hundred hours, type of shit. - For sure. - But I'm running him 10, 15, 20 pounds a week. - Right. - And, yeah, and that's my guy, so I want to keep it straight, but I'm seeing how much he want these pills, so I start inquiring. - So you went from 100 pills to 1,000 pills to 2,000 pills, to now 10,000 pills isn't enough. 20,000 is gone, 50,000 is gone in a day. - I don't even want to deal with the weed no more. But I got, I just, I'm greedy, and it's money. But the pills were so lucrative and good and big that I just didn't even want to be bothered with them, and this stuff got no smell. It's just so many positive, it was so many positives about it. Like in terms of hustling, then positive about it, but I'm saying in terms of not getting caught with it. - Right, and it's only a schedule three on the DEA narcotics schedule. - Scheduling, yeah. - It might have moved up by now, but back then it was a schedule CDS-3. That's what you go to jail for pills and CDS-3. You told me off camera. - Go for an X to CDS-4. - You told me off camera, you had like cocaine dealers that just left the bricks alone. - Yeah, I had guys, I had a few guys I know, just quit the bricks. If they put them on the back burner. The pills were so lucrative and moving so fast, and it was so much money that they didn't want to be bothered, but they bricks no more like I was telling you with the weed. They just devoted their time to getting runners and orchestrating their situation. Yeah, it was that lucrative, bro, I'm telling you. - So this really is a new generation phenomenon because you're basically my age, you're a little older than me, but this is not old 80s crackheads. This is like young people taking the shit. - Yes. - Old people, but also like young people, right? 'Cause this is 2008. - And it crawls generational, you know with the people, like you'll see a person 70 coming by some, and you'll see a person 20 coming by some. That's one of the drugs that just crossed, man, to the honest saying, doctors, lawyers, executives, at big companies, back home, everybody was on the pills. Did you ever catch a case with the hydrocodone? - Yeah, in 2008, I got caught with a thousand pills, luckily. Every time I, both times I went to jail, well I was lucky that it wasn't what it could have been. But I got caught with a thousand pills in the pistol. - And what is the charge? Could you say how? - 'Cause they didn't, bro, they were so green and Houston at this time, like they, man, for a day and a half, they really just didn't know how to charge me. And then they finally charged me, and it was bad. It went from them not knowing how to charge me. They gave me a $40,000 bond, $4,000 pills. Like that's not, and Houston, that's not, that's not equivalent, that ain't how they work. You feel me? - 'Cause they didn't know that's a lot of money or not. - They weighed them. They weighed the pills and just charged me with however many grams of hydrocodone. Because they didn't know how to, how to, how to have work. - It's 40 grand, a lot of bail. - Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of bond for that little bit. A thousand pills, that's like getting caught with three pounds of weed. - Got a half a million dollar bail for weed. - For weed? - A half a million dollar bail. - Yeah, I have to put a 50 G's. - You have state? - Yeah, I am. - Yeah. They thought I was like big time in it or whatever, I guess. But, all right, I guess so. I guess 40 G's is a lot. So. - I mean, it wasn't a lot. It was just a lot for that drug. I posted, I listened. And that money wasn't nothing. I had to get a bondsman in Louisiana to give me. Nobody in Texas would touch me because I had Louisiana credentials still. So no bondsman in Texas would give me. I had to get one from Louisiana to come give me. - This episode is sponsored by Hello Fresh. You guys, it's midweek, you're tired and hungry, and all you want is a home-cooked meal. But you're busy, you're busy raising a family or running a business, I get it. With Hello Fresh, you can cook up bold flavors from around the world without ever leaving home. Everything arrives at your door. Hello Fresh makes cooking effortless so you can always look forward to a homemade meal. Choose from 80-plus globally. recipes every month from Vietnamese to Moroccan to Caribbean and more. 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I'll take my chances with this guy who's got a life in situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was comfortable. I mean, I was in there with my first cousin like I running because I was in my first cousin and the one I would tell you my mom lived with periodically, her sister son, my cousin. We was in the same prison, like man, that was, you know, it wasn't really good about it, but I was happy to see him because he had more time than I did and we hooked up in that. So when you got out, it's already getting harder to get the hydrocoding pills. So you moved on to Roxy's. So tell us about the Roxy's, like how do they differ from hydrocoding in terms of price I think they're more expensive. And I think they are stronger. They're stronger, yeah, okay. One Roxy is three of those hydrocoding pills I'm telling you about 'cause they're 30 milligram Roxy's. See what I'm saying? So technically, if we're going by the milligram, I'm still paying the same price. Remember I was saying I was paying 10 at one point, the 10 milligrams was $3. So it's still the same except you getting three pills and one, right? That was it. That was the only difference. Oxycodone and one is hydrocoding, right? So what is Oxycodone? I mean, the interest is effect. They like to say it's more addictive, but I think it's the same, I don't know, I think it's the same. So you did Alexandria to the market start to shift towards the Roxy's? It didn't have a choice. It wasn't enough. Laura says to keep the world moving. So the dealers, the users will come to their dealers and they'll be like, man, I don't have any, I don't have any of those pills, but I have these Roxy's. I've got just no shit and you might say no, they might say no at first, but they're going to go to do their Googles and check and see and come back and say, man, let me get one. And that's all they're taking. And that's also coming from Houston? Yeah, that was coming from Houston too. And then we did some working dialysis on that too. So but majority Houston, like we, we, we, we, we told Houston up, man, like we now, I can't say me and my partners was the pioneers of the Roxy thing, like somebody else started to, the 10 milligram thing. Somebody else from L.A. had other pioneers, but man, my partners was some of the pioneers. From Alexander, definitely to introduce that, that particular drug to this city. So you got out and you switch. I was the one to introduce my partners and then from Love, Louisiana, we all moved to Houston, we co-wheeled croaking. I'm saying we moved to New Houston and we'll, we'll walk in. But I was the first person to have a brand-of-rock city, I was in. So they wouldn't even mind them. I had to go to Baton Rouge with them. Was it easier to get the hydro code, or excuse me, was it easier to get the Roxy's at this point? Like, yeah. Okay. Cause it was new and you could run them, people, no, it was just different people. Cause now, by this time the form is still synced, they still could see what you're doing. But it's just a new drug and they're not hot on it. So these doctors writing it is not direct, the alarm's not going off at the formuses. And is that what the hood calls, or I hear rappers talk about blues? Blues. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was in a lot of cities, the, the, the Roxy's. Roxy's dead. That wasn't the world got in the craze. Like, I think a lot of the world, Mr. Hydrocodone phase, but the rock, when the, when the rocks hit 2010, that's when you have future, Miley Perkis said, Perk, you know, they call them Perks. Because a perkis said it's oxycodone. But a 30 milligram is not take a good perk. It's just, it's a Roxy. But they call anything like oxycodone, because that's the, the thing to say, you know what I'm saying? Right. So I'll take a break, 30. It's a perk, 30. Right. Yeah. But you would just colloquially, they're called Perks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I had guys, like you say, you say, you say, you blues. I had guys, you know, they would buy weed from me and they were all addicted to Perks. Pills. And I had no idea what the fuck they were. Yeah. But I saw these guys and I'm like, I don't want any part of that. Yeah. Really, it would, it would bend you over. You'd have the, the gorilla on your back. Yeah. It's definitely, I would wish there's no one worse than him. I wouldn't wish that addiction no one worse than him in real life. And now it's three times because there's three times as strong as, as one is three time, is like the equivalent of three hydrocodone pills. That's three times as fast that the user's getting, ah, that's not true because my, everybody know what they could take. So a person I can only take three pills, he only going to buy one rocks and he's not going to just, I don't say, I take three hydrocodones, I'm going to get three rocks. It's no, I'm going to get one rocks because it equals three hydrocodones. So, but maybe long time the effect, you know, I don't know, maybe get out your system a little faster. I don't know what they got. They got a coating hydro and oxy. I don't know the difference, like in terms of the shit, I don't know the difference. But they try to say oxycodone is, there's a lot more harder to kick than, you know, I'm saying. Okay. Hydrocodone is a lot more harder to kick than coating allegedly. So how many, how many, what's the quantity like on the rock, yeah, on the rock seas? I'm getting two and three thousand of them. Okay. Yeah. Because most of the most I've got about like five thousand rocks. And you can make more of it less as opposed to what I'm getting, I'm getting, bro, I'm then a doubling, I'm paying 10, getting 18, wholesale, wholesale, wholesale, yeah. Okay. That's wholesale. Damn, that's good. I'm 25. I'm seven of 18. He's seven of 25. And you can do that a day? That was 15 minutes. God damn. I pull in with the pills, men are going, I don't, I'm just sitting around with no, I didn't do that. That's great business. Yeah. That was great business. So you can, you can make, yeah, you're turning around almost 10 grand profit a day. Three times five. It's 40 racks. If I got five thousand rocks in ten minutes. Okay. We're going to get five thousand, but two's and three's was my regular situation until it wasn't no more. How, and how many people, for about a year, for about a year, I had that run on the other rocks. Yeah. And then I got onto the break trying to be real with you. Last time I went to prison was for cocaine. So why did, why did, why did you make the switch to coke that's such an old, such an old thing to do? Did the man, did the man was there like, I have to bloat? Uh-huh. You know, I've got some rocks and he complaining about, you need to go with bricks. And I'm already seeing what his rocks are going. They stay the climate up because now everybody into the peel business now. So you don't, you're pulling the top secret as long as the top secret because people at the pharmacy is going to be talking to them and you see them saying, okay, yeah. This is interesting. So it's different than, um, than a street drug, like the problem, the problem with the, the pill racket is that the more people get into it, the scarcer it gets. Yes. And the higher they pushed the value of rights, whereas the opposite, the more demand for cocaine, the, the lower the price is going to go because the more supply they're going to, they're going to move across the border. Yes, sir. Which is, it's like, there's problems with both, you know what I mean. So did you find that like, you just couldn't get enough for oxies and it was just better to just deal with the, the white girl, it wasn't enough, it wasn't enough of them. And then like I had this plane that I was selling Roxas to say he wants some bricks. So I'm, you know, he getting three bricks a week. Now were you communicating with your father? Yeah. My father was talking. My father got out in 2013. Okay. So he was down for 15 years in the feds and state. Okay. And he got, he was running with some bricks throwing him out the window and was running to a family. He was the worst off in the wreck. He was in the house in the coma for a week and he was the worst off in the wreck. But okay. And he ran and drugged position and all that. He went down for ten years. So you were, he wasn't supplying you. No, no, no, he was. Okay. Who were your connects for the blow? Age time. Mm-hmm. I got Mexican plugs. Now that, the work I was getting from my skin, the shit. And I had a couple of cool black dudes. I was fucking with him. They'll be for real, which, mm-hmm. What were we paying for bricks back then? 14, about 14, 15 thousand. Yeah. Yeah. See you in a thousand a clip. - Yeah, man. - See, that's the thing. - It's not worth it. Let me explain something to you. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to town the wide. You spend 15 to make 36. And they really 1100, I was up. - Oh, if you're bustin' it down, sure. - Yeah. So, they buyin' nine hours at a time, 1100 a piece. And they buyin' three bricks a week, man, it's worth it. - Oh, okay. I thought you were just getting a point. - But in my hometown, it's more of a plug town. When I'm getting 1100 in street port, this shit goin' for 700 in LA. I ain't even fuckin' for that. You know what I'm sayin' that? I'm gonna make $100 to $200 per zip. Like, I'm not finna go in that Bobby Coyne that are doin' under that. I'm the wholesale guy. - Yeah. - So, boom, they payin' 1100 in the clip up there. Let me go up here and wheelin' deal. I got the transportation. That'll make the job way easier. I'm checkin' what drug you get. You can get it to where you gotta go. The rest gon' do itself. - So, you're never, you're never really touchin' the shit. You're giving it to your truck driver. You're a team wheeler. And he's crossin' it. - Yeah. Most times, you're handing it off to somebody. I may see it when I get over there. I'm sayin' it. But I'm not touchin' it in terms of drivein' and then getting it off the truck all the time. - So, you got a lot of money. - I had a lot of money. - Yeah. - A lot of, man, let me tell you about the streets, man. The more money you make, the more overhead you got. You got people doing everything for you. - Right. - You got a person that like, meet this pay. You got a person that got to do this. The more money you make, the more you overhead it is. - Sure. - It was a lot of money comin' in, but it was a lot of money goin' out as well. Not to mention, you're young, you fuckin' off and you think this shit gon' last forever. - Right. - And I dumped probably a million dollars in a music business. I have for me to a million dollars in a music business. - For real? - Yeah. - So you're still tryin' to make the rap thing happen? - Yeah, I ain't quit rapping 'til. I got out of prison in 2017 and I say, it's over. - Wow, how do you, where does a million dollars go? - In the studio time, everything of music videos, this person can promise you can get you on a radio. You payin' for everything, you payin' for game, bro. - Right. - You pay for game. And most of the people like, what I later learned, like if I just spent that million in Atlanta, I would be on. But I wasn't used to new to business like that, but back then we had softwares wholesale and different things. And when softwares wholesale closed and made the music business just nothin' for the Houston, it was like. Even the Houston rappers went through a period and it was like, what the fuck, what we gonna do? Like living our shows, like the music they put down ain't generating nothin' - Right. - They only put in our music to do some new stuff for the fans. - Right, so they can go on the road, sell tickets. - With 20 softwares wholesale closing and the streaming platforms coming, it was about a four-year gap. So four years, Houston rappers was a limbo. - Right, yeah. - And to feel like Houston rap's back on now a little bit? - Yeah, I think so. I think it's fairly home, yeah. - Yeah. - And he got some new wave orders I tell. My boy Joan Borg from Third Ward, Lil Jeremy. He got, it's a market, 'cause it's been a conversation of an action on podcasts about Houston not having a new scene, but Houston got a new scene, bro. - Is Big Acts the plug? Is he Houston? - No, he Dallas. - He's Dallas, okay. - I feel like, I feel like nobody gives a fuck about Dallas. I mean, he's tight, but it's Dallas isn't like a scene. - Yeah, it's not a vibe, like everybody, even Dallas come to Houston to put in a chill and kick it. Like they'll tell you and people that come to both of them and say, man, I had some family come down to Houston from Dallas, and it was like, man, it's different. Dallas's a lot slower, 'cause my daughter took him out of school. And he was like, man, it's different. - Yeah, Dallas is nice, but it doesn't have like Houston. You say Houston, and you just know what that means. It's fucking sweaty, loose, fast, loose women, drugs, drug trafficking, business, the fucking white collar, white guys in cowboy hats are dealing with the cartel by installing oil. You know, like whatever they can, but people in Houston are so corrupt and dishonest. I know I'm generalizing, but like you had doctors, doctors making six figure salaries selling you $1,000 script pads, you know, like it's hustle. It's a hustle and it's a culture. - It makes money to you. A lot of street dudes open those pain management clinics. So, a lot of times, it would be the street guy. But it was some doctors as well. But a lot of times, it'd be the owner of the clinic. Doctors just keep paying my salary. He worked for me, of course. He may give you the pad. It may not be the actual doctor, but I have had actual doctors do under the table business. But eight times out of 10, you get cool to the person that owned this clinic who's paying that doctor salary, that doctor gonna do what he's telling him. - Right. - And that's what made the business go bad as well, because people get cool with the owner. So now, his 10 people skipping the line. And then the doctor, you know, everybody want to get for show money. So the owner's feeling like, if I get three people that bring 10 people, that's 30 people right quick. And the doctor visits up to $150 at this time. So you might be making $8,000 a day. - That's a lot of things. - You make it $8,000 a day right quick. All by, just, I got a relationship with him. So his 10 people get in, his 10 people get in, his 10 people get in, everybody else get out of your live. And then it got to a point that what pharmacists can only order so many pills. It got to a point that what on pharmacy couldn't order more than $5,000 a pill. I think a week or a day, something like that. Whatever it was, they couldn't order more than $5,000. So that's, I was a, the hydrocodone thing with way ahead of that. Them suckers can order. They can fill this room with pills. Nobody was questioning. Where they going, what you doing with them? Why are you writing so many? But then later when they figured out how to get into the business, they put regulations on that. Pharmacy can order more than $5,000. I think it's a week, it might be a day. But if they could order more than $5,000, I know street dues on pharmacists. Well, that's exactly what those white boys implored it during the oxy-contin boom. They would buy the pharmacies, they would hire the doctors, and literally the same building, that be the doctor's office here, and in the back is the pharmacy. And they're just, it's a drive-through. It's just a drug dealing operation. I saw a documentary on it and I'm like, man, that is death. It was just, I got goosebumps watching it because that was the exact thing we was doing in Texas. It's just, they were dealing in different pills at the time. We was doing the hydrochloron, and it was already on the oxy. Did you know street guys like you, like real hustlers, traffickers that opened up their own pharmacies? Yeah. I got from my hometown, I ain't gonna say his name, you know, he changed his life and stuff, but what, I got from my hometown, I made some news doing that. Wow. What did you think about doing that? I did what I didn't. I just, nah, I guess I thought about it, but I never took the time to do it. I'm already investing in this music. I got my legit thing I'm trying to do. Even though looking at high inside, I should have, that should have been what I did with it. 'Cause I could have did that, let that pay for finance in my life. And I go, I ain't got to worry about taking my dope money and investing in music. This pharmacy gonna pay my bills. I can focus on rap 110%. Well, or you could have caught a life sentence. A lot of those doctors, I mean. I just picked up a guy who wrote a million tablets in Houston last week. Google, they just picked up a doctor. So it's still going on. Like it's still bullshit going on. Wow, is that right? I was gonna ask you that. So what is hot today? Like in terms of the users on, you know, the lean, opioid world. Obviously, proctoria because they're rapping about it. Right. You proctor this. Just an egg, just $300 ounces a year. Yes. Super expensive to serve. Yeah. All of it is super expensive. Right. Even the pills. Even the pills, man. I'm gonna like 40 out of the pill, 30 milligram pills, $40, $45. When you were getting it for $1.50? No, when I was getting those for 10. Okay, but still, that's a markup of. But yeah, that's insane. The ones that I was getting for $1.50, 12 now. Wow, that's insane. This 'cause they're harder to get. They harder to get. So it's become like, it's still a big market, but it's become where it's probably more difficult to traffic in volume. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Unless you're a fucking doctor. Exactly, all you want to form is this, right? Even that can get sketchy. Man, it's just, Houston is basically hot for real. Like Houston, hot for that. If you, your crash done, if you go into that business, now, in 2026, you're asking for it. What about Alexandria, your hometown? What became of that market? No. Methadone. All right. It's the boxum. That's what the city is now. Yeah, it's unfortunate, man. It's unfortunate. And that's the story with all of these small, and medium-sized towns. Yeah. That's the consequences from the early 2000s of just cowboy, wild west, right? Give out glad bags. Doctors give out glad bags full of opioids. Yeah. 20 years later, you see the destruction, right? You see the destruction. It's not your growth, everything. Because it's periods of these people lies, what they didn't care about, nothing but that drug. So guys went to sleep 20 and woke up 40. With no work history, nothing. They just been moving and shaking to feed that habit for the last 20 years. And that's the part of me that makes-- this points me when you see the destruction and shit. You know, it was going to happen regardless if I got into it or not. Like I told you, I wasn't the first, and I wasn't the last, and I wasn't the biggest. I was just the most consistent. But it was going to happen regardless. But the inevitable is unfortunate, you know what I'm saying? Like I know, I just hate the fake pill game now, you know what I'm saying? That's-- I despise a fake pill to them. Yeah, tell us about the fake pills. Somebody just died. Either celebrity, or he was-- Or somebody-- I don't know. Somebody died because they took a fake pill and I fed all in it. Oh, the guy would go to your man orders. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Took a fake pill, a big scar. That's the reason all this stuff went on with the push ice, that's part of it. They felt like big scar was mistreated when he, when he OD and he didn't like it. So that was part of the end of the bad contract as well. - Right, okay. - So, Mac Miller, fake pill. - So they think they're taking these things called M30s, right? - That's, that's Roxett, Roxett, that's what I was talking about. - Right, that's what an M30 is, got you. - But it's not. - It's not, yeah. - It's actually Fent. - Exactly Fent, though. - Fuck, tell us, where do these comfort, do these comfort Mexico? These can't come from Mexico, is, they come from all over. - So it's not American dealers that are taking powder fentanyl and pressing them into fake pills. You think it's actually the cartels. They're sending it up. - Yeah, most definitely. - That's, but my question is, do the users know they're taking? - Some, some, a close, a close family member of mine. To a couple, I got a couple of family members that die from fake pills, actually. - Fuck, that's scary. - That's why it despises them because, you know, it's one thing, if you know you're taking a fake pill, but if you expect to take a certain amount of milligrams, and it's just drugs. 'Cause I know your audience might say, well, don't get it. But, I mean, people expect 30 milligrams, that's what they expect to take. One, they didn't want that. So that's why I despise the guys who's fooling the public. I despise those guys. - Well, do the dealers even know they have fake pills? - Yeah, most of them. And they're not all of them, but most of them never send a fake pill to fool me. - And they're disguised as M30s usually, or? - Most of them have the M30 in print, but the color be off, they know they fake. You can, you know, you can look up any now fentanyl pill drug and you look at them the color be off, but you got to be in that industry to know, like, and most people that take them, they know, they're addicted to the shit. So they know what the rims look like. They just, you know, even co-tape blanks say that, I know the pill was fake, but I still hate 'cause I'm a gremlin. - Nice. - I'm just saying, like, there is a population of people that know they request them, but there's also a population of people that's dead today because they thought they was getting one thing and got something different. - What was the Poo Shisee, you know, he's, he tried to kidnap Gucci, Maine? - He kidnap, according to Gucci. Didn't try, he did. - He did, but I mean, the guy did it in the most reckless, it's just torpedo crash. - Stupid way, crash dummy way. - That was, that was. - That was just over contract or something? - That's what they say over, might have contract disputes. You had a wrong one, man, but, Gucci said he was dead by the contract. He made a three-drop the song yesterday, talking about it. And his song, he said, he was dead to talk about the contract. Why was Poo Shisee mad? I don't know. I was literally, that contract they wanna talk about, but I mean, you sign what you sign, he might not work because Poo Shisee to got a song that's close to being diamond. What you do is you go to the table and ring the go-shade, you come with a bag and went and out of pistol. That's where he went wrong. He got out of jail saying, "How you made $20 million?" It was locked up. Well, why didn't you take a bag of money to that meeting instead of a pistol? Take that bag of money and say, "Hey, man, I want out of this contract." Or go without the bag of money and say, "Listen, ring the go-shade, I'll perform it." - Right. Or catch him slip in, not in a corporate building with cameras everywhere. - That's true. - Can't you know, I don't know. There's so many different, there's so many different alternatives. But there's no room for what he did in the music business. It's just, you're not going to get away with it. - No. - So I did it. The only thing to do difference is he didn't tell the police. But he disputed that contract and Gucci could have did that. So in my eyes, Gucci is a rat. But he wasn't wrong for ratting. 'Cause he's of an age and of a certain stature. - Well, he's a civilian. He's an American citizen. He's talking about killing people and he's coming to me with that and I'm, you know. - Well, he's saying that it wasn't him. It was like his handler that went and told. Which, I agree. Like I would believe that. It was, you know, whoever is managing. He's at a level where he's got tons of people handling everything in the form. Somebody is like, "I'm gonna run it till." - Yeah, that's definitely what happened. - But it came out of he's up. - Like when the police came, he identified him. - Yeah, identified him, yeah. And he told him what was taken from him. But I mean, listen, I'm one of those people that say, if you're holding a football, you're holding a football in your hand. Gucci is a, he told, but I can't say he's wrong for telling. That's all I'm saying. We got, that's all I'm saying. We got to acknowledge what it is. - Yeah. - Yeah. - No, I mean, you black and I'm white. We came to dispute those facts. He did tell the people something. - Yeah. - That's all I'm saying. - Yeah, I'm not surprised though. Like he's, he's come so far from the days of the Gucci main of old. Like he did what most civilians would do. Black or white, from the hood or not from the hood. Everyone's like, "Yeah, some guy fucking kidnap me at gunpoint." Like as a citizen, not as somebody living outside the law, like it's my duty to be like, "Oh yeah, this is our, he did it, I'm a victim of crime." - Yeah, yeah. - You know what I mean? So it clearly, his mind has changed. - His mind set has changed. - Yeah, definitely. I'm not just justifying it. - People have, I was snitching thing misconstrued as well. When we grow up snitching was telling to get out of trouble. It wasn't, if somebody bring harm to you, that's cooperating. But snitching is you in a bind and you skate and you tow. So the lines have got so misconstrued in that stuff. Anyway, like I don't care about street rules. - Yeah. - I'm just gonna do whatever it is that I'm gonna do, as me, Michael, duh. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but I can't, I don't care about what nobody else does. - Oh yeah, that's what I mean. Like Gucci Bane is no longer in the game. He's not, he's not putting his life on the line with somebody else and he got jammed up and he told, he's a victim of crime. - Yeah. - And the idea is a lot. And you know, I'm just, you get enough money, you get soft and you get in your feelings. He's like, "Yeah, that motherfucker did it." (laughs) - Fuck that guy dude, somebody ran into it right now and I take what I got and I know them. I'm not gonna do them. - Nah, I wouldn't either. I got a reputation to uphold, dude, I'm the connect. - It's not, I'm just not gonna be able to sleep good at night, bro. It's gonna bother me. You know what I'm saying now? That person came here and take out my student and shoot my daughter. He could, I don't know. - Yeah. - I don't know. Now you're putting conditions on it. It's like-- - Well, what I'm just saying, I'm telling you I'm gonna do Bud's jury, but if, you know, 'cause I kind of look my family in the face and say, "You knew who it was and you're gonna do what?" That's clown shit. So that's why I only added that to it. But if they can't take this, I might keep you to sleep and get back on my own. - Right. Just keep me to rid of what you're doing. - Well, you caught a case eventually and I assume somebody told, you know, like what happened with that? You went down for the blow. When I got caught with the work, nobody told. I just got comfortable and took a dump right home. Anytime I got jammed up in Texas, it was just fluke shit. Like when I got caught with the thousand lower sets, I had Louisiana plates. I just got profile, wrong place from all time. - Right. - I wouldn't do anything wrong. - I thought you had a driver. I thought you had an 18 wheeler. - That's to get it for to Louisiana. I'm in Houston. - Oh, you're just separate around here. - Yeah, I'm in Houston. I didn't get caught on. I never got, I'm not gonna get caught on a road 'cause I didn't do real work. - Yeah. - You feel me? - Oh, that sucks. - Yeah. - And that's the same thing when I got caught to have a break. It was like, oh, so it was just a half a key. - Yeah. - So I was going home with the things given. I never forget I was going home for things given. We've been to go to New Orleans to think out about your classic. I was going to go home, put that on the truck, just make a quick sum 'cause I told you, I don't leave shit sitting. So whatever I could say, I'm gonna settle the head and have some extra fuck off money. They didn't need it. They ain't greedy. And too comfortable. I got motorized that's by my car. I go taking my jury to get cleaned and my wife's stuff cleaned up. And on my way home, I got a pass through kind of a ghetto area. And I just got bored of 'em. And I forgot I had to sit on them. And they were with me. I was like, man, I'm good. And I'm like, oh, I got 18 ounces on it. - I got 18 ounces on it. And then my fuckers did a break dance when they found it. (laughs) 2015. 11, 2015. March six. I got out 2017. - So you went in when? - March six, 2015. I got out March 31st, 2017. - Oh, okay. So just a nice-- - I think 2005. - I think 2005. - Yeah, that's still short time. - Yeah. - I'm blessed, man. That's what I'm saying. Like, to make the money out of me, to see the things I was seeing, to never have been robbed, armed robbed. I've never been armed robbed. I have people out front of things too and they didn't pay. Do jumped out the back seat with 30,000 one time. But I've never been, give me that. Because I was one of those dudes. I was a young dumb stupid person that wouldn't go. And, you know, it was a time when I would say, I ain't giving up my job. But now, when I get this stuff up, 'cause I could replace it. But 15 years ago, you went and rob and jugged and taking my stuff. But it was an idiotic way of thinking. - Yeah, but money was coming to you so easily. It's like, you didn't really have a reason. - It was just about being a bit. - Yeah. - You, of course, but I'm saying, you were just dealing with players, man. So everything went smooth. - Yeah, I dealt with who I wanted to. I'm not dealing with no Jake Boyz. You know who the Jake Boyz are. Of course, you can become a victim of cycle stands. Man, I'm blessed not to be followed from the club, man. When I tell you, we did at a high level. Man, I used to go on a regular club and throw money. I didn't throw money in the strip clubs because everybody's doing it. So I'm going to Roxy and they sound. - Okay, that's a high club? - Yeah, Roxy was a winning night spike. It was a bad motherfucker. And I go on Roxy, man, and I get 500 more. I go, give me 500 more. And I just, one fist in the air and just, I'm advertising, it worked. You know, it served as purpose, you know what I'm saying? - What was the purpose? - To get on in music. - Okay, so when you go to the club, you throw money. - It's just to get noticed. You got to get noticed in music. Your image and all that shit is everything in music. - Dude, I said this to somebody the other day. I'm like being a rapper is like being an actor. - Definitely. Definitely, 'cause I could see that. Being a rapper is being an actor to a degree, but it's also being a hard working actor. - Yeah. - Because. - Definitely. - At this time, it was a point in time when GZ fucked the game up like, and I don't mean fucked it up literally like, but you really had to be living what she was rapping like. We used to brag about it. I ain't seen a rap shake yet, but I got 100,000 hours for sure, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, it was that man, your image was everything. You had to be out popping your shit for people to take you serious. And it gets you a lot of doors, man, a lot of rappers or dick routers. I meant everybody, everybody. - Yeah. - Because they want to know who's this guy without a jury, and I'm looking like me and I don't know who he is. - Haha, haha. - You feel me? - I swear to God. - So who was like, everybody, DJ Khaled, French Montana, Rick Ross, Florida, I mean, whether you name him out of metal. Real talk, because money go hang what money is. You feel me, when you get money, you're gonna be with him on it. We have a memorial day we can. For all, I mean, the memorial day we can in Miami. You all store, I got married to all store, so men and wife will go every year. Everywhere the all store game went, we did. And you're just seeing people and then now you familiar, you see them once, twice. For you know what you're familiar with, I'm like, I almost had a deal with DJ Khaled 'til I got covered in work. I mean, 'til I got covered in pills. He was cool, man. I was gonna pay him to host a mixtape. When we heard the particular song on that, and I like that bro, I'm gonna work with you, scrap the money, so now we working together. And then I get jammed up. And when I get jammed up, a couple of his other artists end up getting the other blowing up. 'Cause the music business on way on you. - Right. - Ace Hood? - Ace Hood, yeah, I remember. - Ace Hood, he had a guy named, you know, Brown was signed to him. And Khaled was putting out albums himself. But Ace Hood was the main artist. I think like that, Ace Hood's situation was supposed to be like me and my partner, Jess. - Well, that's the fine line. - You know, like, when Jay-Z was hustling in the streets, he flew to London to record, I think like, I think maybe dead presidents part one or something? - Yeah. - As one of his early singles. And for some reason, the producer was in London. And while he was in London, his partner got arrested with the work and went off and did like 15 years. Jay-Z, if he had been there, he would have, yeah, that's right, Emory, E. And so it's like one of those, it's just faith, you know. And also, I think most rappers to really make it, you gotta put the drugs down. It's not, life doesn't work like that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Like, you can't just go from being a millionaire drug dealer to just smooth, now I'm a platinum rapper. Like, you have to bet on yourself and put the drugs away. - And he, you know, even stored that Jesus wasn't a millionaire prior to rap. So that, I'm saying once in a lifetime, I don't think it has happened. - No, I'm looking for some 50 cent had to get shot, almost shot to death before he just, - Before he gets his big break. - Yeah, that's right. - Yeah, so, do you feel? - They told me in 1990, a little flip, told me in 1998, he said, man, you're not gonna be able to rap. I said, though, and I'm like, bro, what are you talking about? Because all the rappers I looked up to, look, key key, big poker, everybody from the script up click, I'm like, they hustle, right? Maybe like, man, just you ain't gonna be the rapper, I said, though, and coming to find out a lot of dudes didn't, they hustle, but they wasn't like, the song's made a sound. I'm living like, my song sound for real. And I'm like, they, I meet people and I'm up, more than them, you know what I'm saying? - Right, right. They're rapping about your life. - To a degree? - They're exaggerating. - Yeah, from the start, I heard them. - They were like, back then, yeah, it wasn't, it was just rap, you know, I'm thinking everybody, I'm thinking everybody rich, you know what I'm saying? - So what are you doing now? - I own and draft trucks. - Right, yeah. - Oh, I own and draft trucks, I got a clothing line, this is my brand right here. - That's fucking cool. - WDH, parallel. - Yeah, that's awesome. - I got a podcast, I got two podcasts actually. One on WDH TV on YouTube, and another one on AVG TV, which is called the block is how I got a calls with that one. And that's what I'm doing, man. I'm serving these looks, I'm serving drip, and I'm getting freight moves. - Yeah. - Keeping the world moving, man. - Yeah, how is moving freight? I'm fascinated by that. I want to have a freight business. - I love it, bro. - Which I know is a weird transition. Podcasts are to freight. - Listen, I love logistics. - My runner didn't run for me because he had to. He did it because he was my friend. But I used to always look at his life and say, if I got to get a job again, that's what I wanted to do. Because he didn't have money problems. He had other problems, no money problems. Trucks get paid pretty good, bro. Yeah. - Well, if you own your ship. - No, you can get paid either way. I know guys make it $3,000 a week that's dry for companies. I know guys make it $3,500 a week on their own truck. So it can be, what would you rather? Make $3,500 on your truck or make $3,000. And somebody's got to worry about all the overhead stuff. So it's just depends. You know, but I know guys make it 8 grand a week too. But they over the road and different things. - Yeah. - So for somebody that's, I think this is a good thing to talk about right now because it's, you know, we've talked to guys that got a long, long prison stretches and they started, you know, long haul trucking, excuse me, like car hauling businesses. What is like an 18 wheelers? Do you have an 18 wheeler business? Okay, so then how does that work? How do you make money, how do you make money from that? Do you get paid per item that you? - You get paid per low, you get paid by the low. You find your dispatcher a broker, booked the freight. It might pay, just say I get something coming from Houston, Austin, might pay $1,100. Get there, come here, get my broker, when I'm on the way, you tell your broker, your dispatcher, you find me something coming back. When you get to Austin, you may get something, and you may have to drive 50 miles outside of Austin to find your low back. And you might make another $6,700 on that. - And you get paid right away? - With factoring companies, yes. You can get paid as fast as 24 hours. - Okay. - If you have a low, you send your BOL that is signed and still delivered, and you have your money 24 hours. And they charge you 3% for that, but they can't wait, they can wait a month on that invoice. They can wait, they got 90 days to pay. But most people pay invoices by the end of the month. - But you can have your own business. - You can have your own factory. You can start a factory on business. I'm gonna make 3%, I'm just gonna pay you and wait on my money. - There you go, and you have a felony? Obviously, felons can do it. - Exactly, and that's one thing I like is it's great for people to re-enter. This is one of the few businesses that don't discriminate on your background, your ethnic race, none of that's true. This is one of the few businesses that does that. And this is one of the few business that you can invest in yourself and make a profit within those first three months. - Yeah. - It's not too many businesses. Like the average business to take 35 years to see a real profit. How many pay your bills out? I'm some of the real profit. - Yeah. - Have you ever been offered, you got any guys from the old neighborhood that say, "Hey, we want to take this package to Houston?" (laughing) Playing jokingly, people, but they ain't open and the fuck am I like that? They ain't open. And they have them. - I just run this headline. It was some Chinese guy from Houston. He owned like all the logistics. From A to Z, he owned the trucks, owned the logistics and the dispatch and had all his runners and he was bringing in a lot of meth. - Oh, no shit. - A lot of meth. - Yeah, all the trucks, the truck driver, I've learned from talking to like actual cartel guys to DEA agents. The guys make the most money in the cartel or the the drug business now are the transport guys. - And those are guys who own the trucking company. So it's a lot of Indian dudes. Again, Chinese guys, you know. - How was bliss to have free will in a truck. I didn't have to buy a fuel, didn't have to pay maintenance. I was just blessed to have a guy that drove for a good company. And back then it wasn't no ELDs. Like now they can try everything. Back then everything was paper log. So he can manipulate the log and do what he got to do to give me what I needed. By the time I needed it, they'd not be like, "Why don't you pass home up to go to Houston?" You feel me? He might be coming to Pennsylvania and he coming to Houston. They ain't going home to Porky's truck. - Right. - But it wasn't no ELD back then to track all of that stuff. - Right. - Now you probably couldn't get away with it. You can't get away with it. - So they can see where your truck goes? - Yeah. - Trucking company can see everywhere goes. - Okay. So you have to, that's why you got to own the trucking company. If you're doing some dirt, you got to own that bench. And you still got checks and balances if you own it. Who do you have to report to if you own a trucking company? - DLT. - I mean, if it's a department of transportation. Yeah, you just don't want your shucks to get caught with bad logs. Like it open the door for searches and suggestions. The bad decisions. They know, you know what I'm saying there. But most times they'd be going to be something red shit that you caught man. Right. I mean, look, it's just a CAD mouse game. They can't get all of it, and you can't get away with it forever. Hello. Yeah, there we go. Such is life, dude. It's all going to end. Hey, man, well, this was a lot of fun. Thank you for coming through. Appreciate you for having me. Shout out your podcast one more time. And yeah, where can we get a fucking Texas-made joint, bro? That's tight. It's tight. It's cut off. It looks like good quality. Yeah. Cropped, yeah. Just follow me on Instagram @jugwdh. Hit me in the DM and get you some apparel. My podcast is WDHTV on YouTube, WDH space TV. And we rock it and roll it, man. Yeah, you're huge. I had a couple of videos go viral. We working, man, 13, 14,000 subscribers. Hell, yeah. Let's do it. We'll link to that in the description. Yeah, you're from Louisiana, but you're Houston cat in my opinion, man. You're a shout out Houston, dude. I love it down here. If you made somebody else from Alexandria, you would say that about, it's all one big family. You know, country cousins, dude. Yeah, but I've been in Houston longer than I lived in Atlanta. That's your adopted home. I don't know. I didn't crawl stove to a point where I've been in Texas longer than. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, man. Well, hey, Jugg. Thanks for coming through. All right, you guys. We'll see you next time. Peace.