'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 8 Deep Dive

Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, half-cooked but still fit to rule, or so she thinks, it's Joanna Robinson. Half-cooked is generous, I would say. I think we're fully cooked here on the House of R pod. That's right. Hang on, half-cooked. We're fully cooked. Jo, we are here, of course, to dive deep, profoundly, into The Treasons of Tumbleton, the Season 3 finale, unbelievable, of House of the Dragon. And we will dive into all of that right after this. Observe the North American dad, 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot, and they've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting. Add $49. Then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. All right, as usual, that was a crock of shit. We're not diving right into it. We're going to do programming reminders first. Here they are. Listen, we usually look ahead for programming reminders, but we're going to look back for a second because we want to make sure you know, in addition to doing Talk the Thrones live on Sunday night with CR, which was a blast. Check that out if you haven't yet. We had the pleasure of chatting with House of the Dragon showrunner and co-creator Ryan Condal. He joined us for like nearly an hour to talk about the season finale, season three, the series to date, adapting this text. That dropped on Monday. That's already up waiting for you. So check that out if you haven't yet. Here's what's coming next. Lanterns premiere. Can't wait. Genuinely. Everyone around the office is buzzing about the first episode of Lanterns. I thought it was delightful. I know. I know. And like I was just talking to the boys about it. Like, I'm excited to talk about it. We will probably also have some, we think, X-Men news, Marvel news, because who knows? But like we're going to D23. The plan is to try to go to D23. So I've never been. That'll be a first for me. Not a first for you. But my maiden D23 voyage. So hopefully we'll have some exciting Marvel news to catch up on as well at the top of next week. And then we're going to be on the road the back half of next week because we're going to Baltimore. We are going to my homeland. And I'm not enough of on the road. Now we're going to Baltimore. No, though I will say it looks like it's going to be a two to two and a half hour drive on Friday in rush hour traffic. So hopefully I will make it to this panel. Yeah, I'll save a seat for you. We'll be in Baltimore for House of Arnite at Camden Yards. And it's a thrill. It's so exciting. I just want everyone to really brace for a wonderful live event and then disappointment with my first pitch and then a wonderful watch along. It's going to be peaks and valleys. I feel like the collective well wishes of the bad babies, like clap if you believe in fairies, like, you know, just boo your mouth up. You don't need it. You're going to crush it. I'm excited. I'm going to crush something. Perhaps a bone or ligament as I attempt to shoulder blade. Yeah, it's definitely possible. But if you have procured tickets to join us there, check your inbox. You have instructions, arrival instructions from the Orioles, 430 arrival at the warehouse, 450 live pod. And then again, you get to watch the game with us. Hang out. So it's going to be a blast. We can't wait. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? What a great question. You know, follow us to Baltimore, but also, yeah, but not in a creepy way. Like in a cool, chill way. Follow us in a cool way. In a really normal, chill, fine, fine way. Why don't you just subscribe to the podcast? That's a thought. Great idea. Why don't you do that? Yeah. Follow us on social, at House of R pod. That's right. On various social media platforms. Yes. You can watch full episodes, including me podcasting from the dark as we talk to Brian Condal on YouTube or Spotify. That's right. That's right. Hobbitsanddragons is gmail.com. I do have a few quick emails, things to get to before we go forward. Is that all right with you, Mallory Rubin? Let's do it. Okay. We got a lot of questions from people about Buffy season five and whether or not we'll be covering it anytime soon. I just wanted to announce that Mallory has begun her Buffy season five watch. That does not guarantee when we will be covering it. Just wanted to let you know, just in case we thought we had abandoned the project. We have not. I don't know. Mallory has begun her season five watch. Yeah. We got a lot going on. We will figure out when we can do it. I feel like we can safely say September. No question. I don't know if late August is realistic, given that it's August 11th currently and I've watched four episodes. Okay. But count on it. Count on it around the, let's say around football kickoff, if you're excited for some football. A notoriously unbusy time for you. Sometime in September. That's a pledge. That's a pledge from me to you. God damn it. Our listener, Laura, wanted to share that for people going through House of the Dragon withdrawal, over the next couple of years. Yes. No free ads, but the Calm app, which I have used in the past to try to go to sleep, has some stories from using House of the Dragon actors. So, Gail Rankin does like a witchy walk through Harrenhal. Oh, my. Steve Toussaint, Harry Collette, Fia Saban, like the Westeros inspired tales to help you fall asleep. So, if you want to listen to some of your fave actors who are either dead or alive on House of the Dragon, you can listen to them on the Calm app. Love it. Also, our listener, Rachel, Dispatch from the UK about the Mad King play. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people are talking about it. A lot of people are buzzing about it. I am avoiding all, even though it's like a story we know, I'm avoiding spoilers because I really… Stage show specific spoilers. Yeah, sure. I'm really hoping to see it. That's right. When I'm in the UK. It's supposed to be closed by the time I get to the UK, but we heard from our listener, Rachel, who was at the Dirty Duck Pub. Great. Uh, who met an American guy who was the, quote, agent for the tour in North America. Uh, and this is a breaking news from our listener because an American tour has not been announced for the Mad King stage show, which tells a story, just in case folks didn't know, the Mad King stage show, uh, tells a story of, among other things, the tourney at Harrenhal. Right. Uh, some key backstory for Game of Thrones. Yes. Um, and it's supposed to be incredible and there's, like, cool puppetry and… I mean, say no more. Uh, George R. R. Martin. George R. R. Martin went. They had a big press night. Our, Ira Parker was there, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so they're doing a seven-week run at Stratford-upon-Avon. That's what's happening right now. I probably won't get to see that, but it's supposed to be transferring to the West End. I could maybe see that, depending how long that takes. And then it's supposed to tour in the U.S. And that's when you and I will definitely go and see it, I think. I say. I'm manifesting it. Absolutely. Um. I mean, I do think we should see it in the United Kingdom. Okay. Let's go see it in the West End. You're throwing it out there. Let's go to, let's go to Baltimore next week. Great. And then just, like, hop the pond. Shorter flight from Stratford-upon-Avon. To Stratford-upon-Avon. Uh, remember when we did the 2026, is that what year this is? Is it 2026? Goodness gracious. 2026 hype draft with Rob and Sean. And talked about going to Oxford. We did. And Sean was like, Ox-tard? Yeah. I get served that social clip a lot for some reason. And then he was like, you two are very special people. Still committed. Still committed to getting to jolly old England together. We'll be there. God damn it. Uh, last but not least. Yeah, tell me. Tyler. Uh, Uncle Espy, I believe is how you pronounce your last name, Tyler. Your lovely wife, Katie, and all of your friends. Oh, that's delightful. Emailed Hobbits and Dragons independently. The best. To request a happy birthday message to Tyler. Happy birthday, Tyler. So Tyler, from Katie, and all of your pals, happy birthday, Tyler. Should we sing? No. Happy birthday. Happy name day, Tyler. Geez, you've got great pals. Yeah. And thanks for listening and spreading the good word about how soar. Love it. That's it. Until more later. But that's it for now. That's the podcast. We're done. Spoiler warning. Yeah. For today's Hot D season three finale discussion. It's the same one as always. If it happened in this episode of television, we're going to talk about it. It's going to come up. We're going beat by beat. If it happened in this season, if it happened in this show ever in prior seasons, if it's ever happened in an episode of Game of Thrones television, it could come up today. Book nuggets sprinkled, you know, throughout as context, as reference points. Yeah. Anything in the future of the text that will be discussed separately at the end of the podcast in a separate book spoiler look ahead section. You'll get a little warning before we get there. Anything on the tapestry after Helena goes out the window. That's right. Goes in the book spoiler section. There's a lot of. Open fabric there. Yeah. Season four fabric and beyond, you know, who's going to take up the. needle it's a great question we got a lot of emails from listeners being like that's not needlepoint okay it's something else i just think that there's a needle there's a thread in the year of widow's bay and ruth it's all needlepoint and it's it's it might be wrong might have been cross stitch unclear anyway but it's it's a broad term we're working on our textile art terminology and we support all of it exactly exactly uh if you'd like to present us with a needlepoint for it we'll add it to the studio oh absolutely well we have we have a couple we have our crest we do we have the needlepoints at home we have those at home we haven't brought them to the studio but we do have those should add them to the new home offices now that we have our shiny new setups we should gotta redo the entire room yeah it's a lot to think about it really is should we get yes we asked roddy if um he was still prepared to die for his queens and he said can't fucking wait it means it's time to pod let's get to the opening snapshot season three episode eight where's the time gone joanna my goodness where's it gone this was directed by andre parek who had previously directed episode six of season two and then this is co-written by showrunner and co-creator ryan condell and t mickle who wrote the fifth episode of season two ryan has written or co-written more than we have time to list quite a bit uh for anyone who didn't watch and wrote on nine of the seven kingdoms that's right and is george's either former or current assistant t yeah yeah that's that is correct uh overall impressions joanna not only of this finale but now that we've reached the end of season three of season three yeah uh i would rank this season above season two if we're doing a classic ranking i would say season one's still my fave uh it's hard to beat my guy viserys paddy it was just so incredible yeah um but i thought this season was an improvement over some of the challenges of season two um and then there's a lot to like and talk about in this finale but it wasn't my favorite finale of all time but i think overall this season was like a real uptick for the show yeah for sure yeah i i enjoyed the finale i thought it was very entertaining and engaging i have certainly a couple questions and things we'll talk through on certain uh scenes but overall i was very entertained and thought it was a good uh blend of the grand sweeping tumbleton spectacle but still rooted very much in character beats and character decisions which is always the um the blend that we want in a battle episode i enjoyed the season quite a bit overall i agree i think definitely we're on we're on the upswing after season two which again season two had episodes in it that like we we loved yeah um but overall on balance start to finish finish this season felt like more consistent it had some incredible high points something like i mean the beginning of this season was really great just really really great episodes two and three were i thought tremendous i know you loved really loved four yeah right and that was when we started to get so much time with our beloved greens what a twist still uh yeah i think one through four which is the screener pack that they sent out initially for folks uh for press and stuff like that are just like among the strongest work that they've done and then it's not like the entire back half was like not great it's just sort of like that opening chunk was so good i thought it was really interesting and then the house of dragons built uh condal said uh and thank you again to ryan for all of his generous time on the pod but like wonderful conversation condal had said sort of like it could take some time for a tv show to basically like teach you how to make it yeah and he was like i really feel like we hit our stride in season three you know like yes sure the whole production team just feels like they all know what they're doing they're working as as a well-oiled machine and they're already sort of talking about like the two-year process to season four you know so it's like they feel like much sturdier this year i think than they have felt in previous years you know there were some like behind the scenes changes for people who are working on the show and stuff like that and so i i i'm i feel really confident about how this is all going to end we'll talk in the spoiler section about like what's to come and and some questions about you know maybe where it all ends but yeah but i feel like season four is going to be like a solid wrap-up to this show yeah i'm i'm pretty confident about season four as well i'm i'm sad that we only have one season left and eight episodes left but i would anticipate season four being pretty riveting and i think one thing in addition to the you know number of key moments and key uh seismic events and just the dance of the dragons the canon that we know await which is obviously exciting and something to look forward to one of the things that this season made me feel really confident in it is you know we talked about this a lot on sunday with chris just like how much we all loved spending time with laris and agon or we all loved spending time with gawain and darren and ormond the moments of surprising investments and characters that we weren't anticipating caring about quite that much have been one of the real pleasant surprises of this stretch of the series and then like raniera you know it's interesting to think that we are so much more drawn to those other scenes because there's just a kind of you know i think frankly like a charm comedic uh aspect to it prize element but the raniera descent that we watched across this season we talked very much early in the season about how um so many thrones fans were like okay are we gonna get the time to really understand what happens here in a way that we maybe didn't with danny and that has nothing to do with what comes in the future just with what we're watching inside of these events and i have found myself really riveted watching raniera's journey into where we find raniera in this finale this despotic desperate state making these decisions and so to have people in each uh uh side of the war who we care this much about and want to spend time with and those moments that are really rooted in theme and character arc knowing we're going to be able to pair that with dragon war is pretty exciting and pretty cool obviously it's always hard to wait a couple years for house of the dragon to return great news we get a night of seven kingdoms season two next year we don't know when yet but we're not that far away from it but we're not that far away from it but we're not that far away from it but we'll be in the uk next week for the movie in the uk before you know it so you know just being back i'm feeling a lot of excitement about just being back in westeros and feeling that rekindling i think it's a great time to be a westerosi fan and i think that like to your point it's funny it's funny because you know when i get when i think about who gets to be fun this season versus not fun i know yeah uh it's interesting but i do think that especially earlier in the season i think that even emma darcy who does have a really strong sense of comedic timing got to be like fun funniest moment of the season i think was oh absolutely not yeah episode three was just like a real showcase for like all the flavors that emma darcy is capable of as raniera so yeah like tremendous performance yeah really really good stuff um bard slash classics corner hit me okay got so many for the season i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think it's going to be a lot of fun this episode i tried to be as particular as possible um a couple listeners calvin and morgan said in this uh passage from henry the fourth part one uh as it pertains to our guy ormond right came there a certain lord neat and trimly dressed fresh as a bridegroom and his chin new reaped showed like a stubble land at harvest home he was perfumed like a milliner there you go and twixt his finger and his thumb he held a ponset box which ever and anon he gave his nose and took twig and as the soldiers bore dead bodies by he called them untaught knaves unmannerly to bring a slovenly unhandsome corpse betwixt the wind and his nobility you know a perfume lord who's like these corpses smell bad and i'm getting in the way of my enjoyment the instant hit of the perfume bobble from ormond after discovering all just wonderful stuff sensational um a number of listeners sent in this line from mcbeth unsex me here and fill me from the crown to the toe top full of direst cruelty make thick my blood stop up the access and passage to remorse lady mcbeth unsex me here very raniera uh you know a lot of behind the scenes conversations have been about sort of raniera at war with her gender this season and sort of this decision to take on this uh masculine or at least asexual aspect with the with the armor here at the end have you have you seen any of the theories floating around it hasn't been confirmed by the show but have you have you seen any of the theories floating around that this might be visenya's armor i feel like they would have said if it had been but it's just sort of like you know we saw agon in the conqueror's armor yeah and uh you know would would this set of armor be laying around waiting for raniera or would they have to repurpose something that existed on the set of armor yeah i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know already do you know what i mean and would i mean i think that would be great yeah it feels to me unlikely that the show would not have that's what i'm saying they would have said that that's what they were doing given the number of uh direct or uh indirect allusions to our references to visenya over the years but that would be great yeah that would be and obviously quite alarming you know uh king from king john from our listener william uh about how it's too late for anyone to make peace in this dragon war the dauphin says your breath first kindled the dead coal of wars between the two of you and the war between the two of you and the war between the two of you between this chastised kingdom and myself and brought it in matter that should feed this fire and now it is far too huge to be blown out with that same weak wind which enkindled it so for corliss to be like hey can we solve this with a marriage pact or perhaps slightly redrawing the borders and damon's like nope yeah it's dragon war baby um our our listener aiden who sort of started bard corner wrote in with something from oedipus right i liked this description aiden says obviously everyone knows oedipus is the guy who fucks his mom but sophocles play is about more than that it's about an incredibly powerful man a king in fact who devotes every inch of his power to avoiding his own fate yet every action he takes only brings him closer to his inevitable ruin and among other things his mommy's cunt i'm quoting this email okay raniera had a similar arc to oedipus the king this season and so tonight i'll leave you with this final lines of the play as translated by robert fagles which i can just imagine roddy the ruin screaming with delight as he and orman burn people of thieves my countrymen look on oedipus he solved the famous riddle with his brilliance he rose to power a man beyond all power who could behold his greatness without envy now what a black sea of terror has overwhelmed him now as we keep our watch and wait the final day count no man happy till he dies free of pain at last i like this idea of raniera as someone you know a classic greek uh self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing of raniera just just every move she makes this season brings her inevitably closer to oedipus i like this idea of raniera as someone you know a we talked about this a lot with nolan this idea of being the architect of your own destruction and like um as much as i'm happy to blame allison for the plan of like let's declare agon dead had raniera not declared agon dead yeah then he would not be experiencing this quote miracle resurrection moment inside of you know she made him the chosen one she made him the chosen one and like all of her other decisions that she made she was trying to avoid being named a tyrant or you know uh all these other things every step she took to avoid where she landed screaming about the prophecy in a suit of armor and and the septon's blood on her hands uh in this finale i just i just love thinking about going back and re-watching this season and watching every step take her closer and closer to this sort of inevitable spot yeah i think this is one of george's favorite things sometimes literally when an awareness of a prophecy or a dream or a vision is in play but just more broadly with you know the the choice and consequence aspect there's something you know to discuss when we get to helena later that i think is really interesting about like free will specifically through the lens of a dreamer who does actually have access to uh something that she's trying to understand but for a character who is desperate to get that clarity like raniera is and seeking it everywhere and carrying burdens and moving constantly toward you know that line in this episode the fucking viserys like he put me here there's so much i'm excited to hit as we go through some of the scenes today i was really struck you know raniera as a character always a very precise language and tone and so when there's any kind of shift in like the carriage scene with the litter scene with joffrey the real flat delivery and tone of voice very notable but in like the scenes with the septon bella in particular there's a lot of i think deliberately from the writers of the episode passive voice blame casting other people and so where is their culpability even as to your point there is an active hand and it is your own marching you toward this place and what i love what i love about this is like you and i agree that that that it's quite blurry here like when she says hey it's corliss's fault he was out there in the field you and i are like uh-huh and when she's like hey it's viserys's fault that i wasn't prepared set up for success uh pretty much agree no question but are there other active decisions that raniera is making that she needs to own it's all true everyone's fucking up all the time in her own right and so i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point fia it's saban right i feel like i always mispronounce her last name i looked it up i believe it's saban like nick saban champions never sleep sometimes i want to say saban but i think it's saban fia saban helena herself in an interview with the rap said that uh helena's line about life being nothing more than being not dead yeah comes from george bernard shaw's saint joan the play saint joan quote fia's interview from the rap joan gives this incredible speech to people imprisoning her when she says like quote fia's interview from the rap joan gives this incredible speech to people you think life is not being stone dead but there is more to life because i might as well be not alive if i can't hear the church bells and the lambs and the wind and the trees and that's what living is to me and fia went on to talk about how being robbed of the connection to nature is like taking uh disconnecting helena from her religion and and without her connection to her religion and again alice alice and helena would make quite a pair of these naturalistic witches um without that connection to her idea of spirituality she's dying anyway right and when we when we first see her in this episode and she's gray essentially like it's just devastating um that is bard slash classics corner from our incredible listeners we got a really beautiful email from a listener um will who was just talking about like how much he enjoys thinking about these stories across like various um you know just to think about the themes that falkner chases in the theme you know like all of these great thinkers and writers and and how we revisit these same stories again and again but how much we appreciate them by being able to look at them from all these different voices um and i say yes thank you to our listeners you guys really enhanced this whole experience for me so shout out the bad babies now and always all right it's time for the deep dive let's head to the bowels of the pleasure den okay we are mostly gonna go chronologically today every so often there will be a little bit that's pulled up or down depending uh but gotta note the opening credits this week obviously tapestry's on our mind the addition of egg on and sunfire was fucking sick and the fire on the tap oh my god i just looked amazing i thought it was really cool to compare to think about that and then think about the the the watery waves of the thread that that opened the season when we were coming off of the gullet um also correct me if i'm wrong so the raniera and her and her uh you know coterie uh which was took a lot of the opening credits this season of just sort of like raniera flanked on dragon right yeah and then uh when we see egg on on the tapestry in this fiery thing uh it's a like a red dragon well i thought that was just sunfire's pink membranes the pink wing membranes but it was sure but okay so but but also the burn putting that aside yeah what do you think of the golden dragon being behind raniera i think it's just supposed to be cyrax okay who's golden you think it's more than that i don't know i i mean cyrax is like not golden cyrax is like golden dragon is yellowish i guess i guess we have to get kind of simplistic in our tapestry work i think it's cyrax but sometimes a dragon is just a dragon joranna you know at the end of the day when there are so many different colors and the dragon designs are so unique those similar colors for the two dragons associated with the two characters seeking to rule though obviously there are other characters seeking to rule too um sunfire looks sick on the tapestry oh yeah i mean that that looks great very cool will the tapestry continue in season four without elena maybe not i mean woe betide if they go back to sort of the the blood you know what churning through the that was on my mind again given the image of you know all the blood uh coming down from raniera coming down from raniera and the tapestry at the end of the episode it goes back to that kind of like the the the bloody rot of this family i still don't ryan condell email us he doesn't have our email um um i don't know if you guys have any questions about that i don't know if you guys have any questions about that i still don't have a better answer for what is on the tapestry than the one we presented to ryan uh so i don't know what to say about that same okay same i keep looking at it saying to myself what am i missing i will say this so so it's raniera on the throne this is what she looks like uh you know when she unfurls part of helena's tapestry it's raniera on the throne it's flames and dragons and hands reaching out behind her so like karnic and then she's like the war the dance behind her uh red thread coming down from her head and all of her onto the ground so is it cuts from the thrones that was that was my guess uh but also sort of laced in bodice fashion across so then is it more like thread so then is it more like puppetry almost like are you like hey joanna stop overthinking tapestries maybe but like no i like but like me asking you that certainly not but like raniera as a puppet of fate or raniera as the puppet master of the dance yeah um or it's just blood i don't know i think it's all in the mix certainly i think the question of responsibility and culpability and how much of this is driven by the decisions that the characters right now and the dancer making and how much of this is some sort of inevitable aspect of viserys's warnings of um dragon rider hubris and dragon war and the the the kind of inherent rod in the Targaryen line. and what they seek to do and maintain. You know, there was a. I was going to hit this when we got to the scene later, but because we're talking about it now, there was a really interesting in-house that dragons built glimpse of the prop, right? Of the tapestry that they made for the show. And it's worth people going to look if they're interested in seeing all the different. There's like some blood and chi stuff. There's a ton of aim and eye imagery across it. There's a lot of Harrenhal stuff. The goat, the owl, the noose, harrowing, given obviously what we learned from Alice in this episode. But there's also another ruler on the throne with similar imagery. Is that supposed to be Aegon? Like the idea that there's lame all around and shared? Well, okay, I need to go look at it again. I saw what you were talking about. I was. And they didn't put that in the episode, to be clear. But it would have been green. I was almost thinking it was Ares. Because it's like. To me, it looks like the ruler is engulfed in flame, but it would have been. Yeah. A green flame, probably, if it were the Mad King Ares. Like a burn them all sort of moment. When I first saw it, my first thought was that it looked like Maegor. But then almost everything in that tapestry that they show is like this. From the show. From the show. Yeah, I understood that. So then I was like, all right, well, interesting. Anyway, we'll get back to that at the end. Let's start where the episode begins. Rhaenyra learning about Aegon and Sunfire. So not everyone is as thrilled as we are about Sweet Sunfire's return. Oh. Or while she shares this story. This news. Rhaenyra is hyperventilating, grasping her chest, sharing this report with Daemon, seeking him out as he's getting fitted in his armor for Tumultim. He is risen. The small folk name it a sign from the gods that Aegon is ordained to rule, that he and his dragon have been resurrected to claim the throne. Fascinating language, given, again, that this was. I mean, Sunfire has risen, but the lie from Rhaenyra. Like, Rhaenyra knows Aegon is dead, so the language and word choice here are fascinating, obviously. A lot of this prophetic language and the symbols and signs and portents, portents and signs, that the realm is going to see in this. Aegon's status being known. Big book change, as we have noted previously, but interesting to just have this definitively confirmed that everyone knows Aegon's back. And you called this. You were like, there's no way he burned every single moon. No possible way. There were some scurrying figures in the back, so this is a fascinating place to be. I thought, no, Aegon would be thorough, but. Yeah, he's always on top of his shit, that guy. But, you know, it behooves him to have this message up. He's got it out there, so. It sure does. So, as you said, there's the Alicent aspect of kind of having planted this. Just tell them Aegon's dead seed. But the Rhaenyra, like, hoisted in a double capacity here by her own dragon petard and symbolic petard is really rich. She is the one who positioned with first Seasmoke and then, of course, the full sowing, the idea of the dragon raising the army of the seeds as a sign of her worthiness to rule. She told people Aegon was dead. The other thing, the show's choice to, like, pretend Sunfyre was dead for this long or have people think Sunfyre was dead for this long pays off here because it is this rebirth and resurrection versus, like, our dude was hurt and hanging out and, like, eating on the ground before he healed enough to fly. Wouldn't have quite had the same effect. So, understand this choice more fully here. What do you think Bela and or Daemon and or anyone else could have done to make sure that, like, go check his dragon pulse? Like, what would have been more. The Morthoros. Should they just have burned Sweet Sunfyre? I mean, I guess there's the case that maybe you don't leave an entire intact dragon there if you want to be absolutely sure, but that struck me. Should they have noted that Maelys was decomposing and Sunfyre wasn't? Well, but was the decomposition aided by painful memory chopping off Maelys' head? That struck me more as just, again, Rhaenyra looking to blame everybody else around her for everything that has gone wrong. But I'm just curious. I'm just, like. You know, it's like when someone seems like they're dead and you're like, just shoot them in the head just to make sure. Yeah. I'm like, would I have just, like, driven a stake into the heart of Sunfyre or something? Yeah. I mean, maybe. I'm glad that didn't happen. Sweet Sunfyre, here to wow us. The realm is buzzing. You know what I was thinking of was that moment that Larys and Aegon shared earlier in the season when Aegon was very anxious, obviously, and Larys said, anonymity is a boon. He's like, chill, my guy. You're eventually. Eventual resurrection becomes the stuff of song and legend. It will ensure that your eventual resurrection becomes the stuff of song and legend. So Rhaenyra's choices and actions allowing that basically, like, calm down and stop being so difficult line from Larys to become prophecy of a different sort, just delicious. We didn't get any Larys in this finale. And you know what I would have loved? I know, sad. If Larys, you know, fulfilling his promise to sing the songs of Aegon had been partially responsible for the spread of this messaging of, like, oh, isn't. He is reborn. He is risen, you know? Maybe he's doing it in the shadows and we'll find out later that he's been working really hard. One can only hope. You know the other thing about just the Aegon lie now in hindsight? We talk about this a lot with just assessing things people do in real life, things people do in television shows, movies, books, whatever. Don't tell a lie that can definitely be disproven. She was trying all season to get them to find Aegon, find Aemon, find Vhagar, find some. So Slytherin, you made yourself a liar, too. You made him the. You made yourself clearly a liar and stuff. She was trying to get them, and they were like, that's not the priority. And she's like, I actually think it is. And she was right. Well, she was right about a lot, but it's too damn. She's wrong about a lot. Wait, wrong about a lot in this one. Yeah. Daemon tries to soothe her here. Says, the lesser gods, don't worry, they have no say in this. We're the blood of Ol' Vlaria. I'm not sure if you've heard this before. We have absolute power. He's playing all the hits, right? And none of this has anything to do, I'm sure, with Rhaenyra deciding to charge into the Great Sept and demand at sword point that the High Septon anoint her and then have him killed when he doesn't. I'm sure none of these little seed plants from Daemon all season long about the lesser gods and the superiority of the guy who said in the third episode of this season, I style us gods, Rhaenyra. Sure, that had nothing to do with this. For me, it's the moment he calls her princess. I'm like, the High Septon, yeah, that was. You're toast, buddy. That was a rough one. You're toast. But it's over. You know, all the Septon's and Septon's around him were like, my guy, call me. No! Like, we're on your side, but please, please, please. I like from Daemon getting, you know, we're going to get such an incredibly rich Daemon Ormond comp later with Ulf. We've tracked all season the way that Ormond talks about the High Towers. Is it rich or is it just sort of like. It's rich in stench. Oh, yes. You know, the superior man idea from Ormond about the High Towers. And, of course, Daemon's version of this hubris, the might is right fallacy. Christopher Nolan again. Indeed. All right, Jo, what did you make of Vernira's Curse of Viserys here? Fucking Viserys. Paired, if you want to hit this here as well, with what she says later to Helena about Viserys's philosophy being the realm's undoing and confronting that at last. I just thought it was really interesting to. I mean, first of all, I was really grateful to hear it because I do love Viserys. But again, as the show knows. A lot of this is at Viserys's feet. Yeah. A lot of it says Otto's beheaded feet, too, but, like, it's, you know. You know, I miss them both. For her to say, my father, Viserys the Peaceful, I thought that was a really interesting moment of branding on the steps of this up there. Especially because that was Otto branding. And she adopts a couple High Tower propaganda lines here. She uses their house words. Oh, yeah. I like the way she says. Great stuff. Got to co-op the message if you're down. What I do love about Vernira is that she's learning the power of branding. That's what she learned in this episode. I mean. She's like, Orman, I get it. You need a fit. You need some eye makeup. I have a. Darren the Daring. Roll over Darren the Daring. Prince that was promised in a language they don't understand. That's who I am, you know? The fit that Vernira debuted in this episode. People are walking around immediately with the t-shirts with, like, the multiple Verniras. No question. Yeah. And by people, I mean us. Yeah. Has anyone made that shirt yet? Yeah. The optics are scary. Yes. But they are strong in a way that, like, here. And a rutabaga. And a rutabaga for you. And a rutabaga for you was not. Okay. Yes. I thought this was really good. Viserys' philosophy is the realm's undoing. I mean. I don't know. What I love about this show is I could see it going a number of ways. You know, I think if Viserys had. If Viserys had better valued this idea of dragon power than. And made it clearer the line of success. And not let Otto and Alicent and all these other things get in the way of what was going on here, we would not be at war here. But in general, I agree with you. Your favorite thing is to say, like, hey, was Viserys right about the fact that we can't control dragons? Yes. I think for finding Vernira in this place is so fascinating because I agree with you. I felt very. Even as we were watching this deeply troubling descent for Vernira, a character we have. We've been watching Vernira for so long in this episode and steadily across. You know, we're building methodically toward this point. I also felt very heartened to, like, see Vernira push to the side and retire this. I thought, frankly, very baffling notion. What would my father do? Like, which. Well, it's just. I understand why the character was there, but never felt like the way Vernira. Other than the desperation to seek the legitimacy through the connection to his having chosen her. Right. The crown, et cetera. One of the things I thought was. One of the things that we want for characters we're invested in for an era is like, is your view and so to see Rhaenyra shift from Viserys to just Daemon is so dismaying and you understand why the character has wound up in this place but it hurts us it hurts us to see and then I do wonder and I worry can you hold on even if you don't agree completely to what what fueled those words of caution if you have arrived at a moment of actively rejecting his mode of operation like can is Rhaenyra in a place where there's room for that kind of nuance it doesn't feel like it I think what's also true and this is what Alison said earlier in the season is just sort of like the way that Viserys operated is came from the privilege of being you know the chosen male heir to the throne and that is just not something that was ever available to Rhaenyra Aegon could do the rock bottom least I mean you know with some strong courtiers around him and not under nearly as much scrutiny as Rhaenyra was when she was trying her damnedest to please everyone and disappointing everyone at the same time no question and even something about the like he put me here language also it made me think of something you I can't remember if this was last week or the week before but recently on one of the pods you know noting the and we had a beautiful email about this like the characters who find themselves in this place where they're like was this even what I wanted and there's you don't necessarily want we don't want Rhaenyra to say I don't want this it could be Aegon's that's not where we are with it but this question more broadly for Rhaenyra for Alicent for Aegon for any of them of where they have wound up and what connection there is to the thing that they actually desire and then you pan back even a step further it makes me think of Alicent that really great Alicent auto fight back in the day of like well you know how would I even know like was this not what you wanted how would I even know and the idea that Rhaenyra a character when she was younger who was so now even this though was like formed from all my father does is talk about the male heir he wants so then Rhaenyra is in a position of reacting to that by saying I just want to fly my dragon and eat cake like you're you don't exist in a vacuum in life right but it is so interesting to think about the character's history in that respect and their evolution you get to this place of making choices where you you do everything through the lens of needing to hold on to this thing and it's like you might think it's your inherited birthright and also the thing that you definitely deserve more than this piece of shit but is it the thing you want and does everybody have to pay as a result that you could ask that question of a number of different characters Daemon certainly part of what makes the dance of the dragon so interesting yeah tragic but Daemon does desperately want he does the throne I mean thinking back to one of the earliest images that we got in this series of just like Daemon looking at the throne sitting in the throne it was all there just from from the word go speaking of Viserys actually he was on my mind again in this stretch because this when Daemon says to Rhaenyra this is your test right the realm only recognizes strength is Daemon right overall about how they should conduct themselves maybe maybe not reasonable minds can disagree the fact that the realm is looking for strength and that Rhaenyra as a queen is going to have a harder time displaying it that's undeniable the reason that this made me think of Viserys is because of that conversation he and Lionel had not the iconic fabled this is the stuff but actually in the episode in in the episode prior in the fifth episode of season one called we light the way the crucible conversation yeah there's a part of me that wishes I'd been tested I often think that in the crucible I might have been forged a different man and Lionel responded by saying many that are tested only wish to have been spared so like how do you respond to the test but also do you want the test do you actually want it the fact that Viserys was like oh if only I had gotten the opportunity to prove myself this is what that crucible looks like I think what's fundamentally tough about this is that it's not just about the trying to determine who knows the right way to rule rest Westeros is like we have trouble understanding what it means to be a monarch you know what I mean we who have grown up in a semblance of a democracy and so like this idea of like what's the right way is it giving out food to all the people or is it like with an iron fist is and this Machiavellian idea of fear versus love right like uh since love and fear can hardly exist together if we must choose between them it is safer to be feared than loved but Machiavelli was like you should try to be both yeah be a feared and be loved but Rhaenyra is just like they will not love me no matter what I do I keep trying to please everyone and I took the money from the nobles and I'm trying to please them and they don't give a shit about me and all they want is this fucking Aegon who sucks actually and that's all they want so they'll fear me instead and that will be effective but like you know when I'm watching her administration at work you know my instinct is to be like yes let's feed the hungry let's do all these things but it's just sort of like not how the system of government works in Westeros and it's certainly not how it works in the midst of a civil war you know when you need to have this iron fist so it's it's really you know like I feel like sometimes you can watch you know um the west wing or something like that where it's like how to run a democracy and you're like oh that's the right way that's the wrong way but like watching a in the midst of a civil war I'm just sort of like all of us are saying Rhaenyra is making the wrong choices and I'm like I agree but what are the right choices totally it's one of the things about you know watching and obviously this was true in the original Game of Thrones days the Song of Ice and Fire days it's like one of you find yourself I remember this feeling regularly podcasting about Game of Thrones the first time around like saying things and it's like I don't see she should crush them all wait yeah yeah and the number of times this season and like early when you know you should have killed Darren you should have killed Darren you should have killed Darren you should have you should have it's like well you find yourself trying to analyze it through the lens of these characters in this context which is like you're the the Machiavelli quote is so interesting because it makes me think of other Viserys the like who can rule without love or fear but then Dany building toward the horror of let it be fear right because she wanted to be a beloved you know like and then when you feel the thinking of her absence of that thinking of her at Winterfell whatever and Sansa being Sansa and that like that memed fake smile from Dany but she's just trying she's like I want to show up and I want to be a breaker of chains and I want to like you know have a better administration than than you know Bobby B and and Queen Cersei and all the rest and they can't wait to give it to this other guy instead that said Jon better than Aegon other Aegon better than this Aegon they're all named fucking Aegon uh Rhaenyra steadies herself all right Daemon's philosophy won the day let's have Hugh I'm gonna ask a Mallory question yeah how hard do you think Daemon was when she was like oh my god well go do a do a war the fact that you know we get some quick instructions out of the way right have Hugh go to the the stand guard at the dragon pit we're gonna like watch for for Aegon um you continue with the Tumulton plans and then the the leaning in the sexy flirtatious like eyes up Rhaenyra the realm is watching do not make a monster to me and then the musk and like the the rasp in Daemon's voice it will be my great pleasure your grace uh pretending for just a few more moments that they're not gonna kill everyone really makes these two want to fuck mega horny moment between the two of them horny and but also like it reminded me of of Daemon and Viserys and it's just sort of like this is all he kind of ever wanted to be for Viserys to a certain extent and then he's like oh my god I'm gonna kill everyone and then he's like oh my god I'm gonna kill everyone and then he's like oh my god I'm gonna kill everyone a certain degree where he was just sort of like let me go why won't you why'd you pick this guy as your hand what about me let me be let me do battle for you let me send me out to kill up like let me do it prop prop prop you up indeed um and then and then um and then later he's like ho whoops sure is through his concussion um Rhaenyra vows to kill Aegon herself later he will talk about putting her head on a spike we have an email about this Joanna well on the fear and love front I think our listener Holly wrote in about rubs fear the French Revolution Rob's fear was someone who had all these ideals about what the revolution should be but this is a uh Holly wrote he was such a good just educated man who truly believed in enlightenment ideals but what he said to justify the reign of terror was this quote the whole development of our theory would end here if you had only to pilot the vessel of the republic through calm waters but the tempest roars and the revolution imposes on you another task end quote he thought the end justified the means to get a just society we're going to chop people's heads off so like this idea of like I have Rhaenyra's like I have an idea of what the realm can be if everyone just agrees that I'm in charge but first we're gonna have to burn a bunch of people I guess and that's you know this is the guillotine her guillotine's a dragon so here we are sure is yeah waiting in the hallway Bela who has like us seen a number of very tense and fraught corridor exchanges across the season and thinks I'll just I'll just Rhaenyra I'll join in pretty sure new new wig on Bela looked great oh interesting uh Bela would like to know if Rhaenyra has a plan to rescue Corlys from Tumbleton where he is being held hostage and prisoner and this is where some of that like blame casting passive voice uh popped from Rhaenyra here Sunfire was allowed to live my enemies have been allowed to muster their strength later with the High Septon you will not deny me who is denying Rhaenyra who is blocking Rhaenyra uh tell us Bela here Corliss made his choice now I think like you said before we did have that not wrong long reaction. I think it's also true that Rhaenyra can't pretend that the Adam Allen decision was not going to sit poorly with Corlys, but we're past the stage of being able to parse those subtleties with those characters. Bela tells Rhaenyra that Corlys' abduction was her fault. Says to Rhaenyra's face, you use those who serve you as tools, which is what we heard Bela say to Adam last episode. It's how Ormund oriented his recruitment pitch to Ulf, this idea that everybody's a tool to Rhaenyra. And then says, and this was like a whoa moment. Yeah, but you can't cast me aside because you need my dragon. Incredible stuff from Bela, right? Calling out a true thing there, right? The dragon math, it's on everyone's mind. And then Rhaenyra reached out and grabbed Bela's face, grabbed her jaw, grabbed her chin. Gasps. I gasped too. I was genuinely shocked by that because there's like the violence of it, but there's also just the depth of this rift between, you know, we've got this Ulf, a stranger, a recent recruit that was all mishandled, but like, you don't know him. Bela's family, like this is Daemon's kid. This is your stepdaughter. For Bela to say these things to you, it signals something about where we are. And some other things. Your niece, your would-be daughter-in-law. Indeed, all of the above. And also just this entitlement from Rhaenyra that everybody is hers. I thought it was really interesting. She calls her, what, insulin child. I should not blame you for it. Truly, insulin runs in your blood, as your sister has lately reminded us. I thought that was really interesting because, of course, as we just outlined, you know, the family tree is a snarled mess. So when she says it runs in your blood, is she talking about Velaryon blood? Like, that's what it seemed like to me. And then, you know, we get into like the aspect of the show that I'm not sure the show is always directly grappling with, but it's nonetheless subtext here, which is racial, right? If she's saying it runs in your blood, I mean, a lot of what Bela has is Daemon's blood. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of it is Targaryen blood, but there's this Velaryon blood in there. And if that's what she's saying, like, you know, when we're evoking Corlys, when we're thinking about Rhaena, when we're thinking about Bela, like that use of the word insolent. No question. Which is just so close to sort of like upjumped, which is just so close to a lot of other things that I just think, I don't know how intentionally the show is interacting with that, but I think we can't ignore the optics. We can't ignore the optics of who Rhaenyra is saying certain things to, I would say, for sure. Dragonrider discontent. It has to be on our minds in this episode. Well, and especially, sorry, just especially then for her to whisper to Alan later, like when she's like, insolence runs in your blood, Bela, but later to Alan, you've got the blood of old Valyria in you. Like, this blood doesn't serve me when it doesn't serve me, but it does when it does, you know? Well, and in general, that's how Rhaenyra is conducting herself. Like, what do I need from you in this moment, and how can I achieve that end? Speaking of Alan, takes command of the Valyrian men. They're finally here in King's Landing. Some astonishing accents. I don't understand. Where are they from? Literally, like, five feet away. Do you think Corlys, like, these are men, maybe, maybe this guy, because it's just this one guy. Maybe this is like a guy that Corlys, like, picked up on his adventures, and he's like, come work, you know, with me. Like, from across the Narrow Sea somewhere. That's from one of the voyages. That's my best guess. Otherwise, I don't get it. I've got no other ideas, so let's go with that. They want to rescue Corlys, of course, and Alan's like, what if we didn't? The queen needs us. Corlys knew the risks. He'd want us to focus on Valyrian honor. Stop being a septon. What? Who are you? Who are you? Why do you get to say this? He says that he is Corlys' eldest, his named successor, your once and future lord of the tides. By the way, this would be a handy time for Alan to have grown out his signature hair. Oh, we're waiting. Yeah. We're waiting for the grow-up. Surprised that we're not at that point already. I bumped hard on this. Yeah, tell me. Yes, I mean, it's because it doesn't make sense. It makes no sense. It's obviously a T.H. White reference. It's an Arthurian reference, and Condal cited Arthur a lot. One of you was talking to us about Aegon, and in a lot of the behind-the-scenes, they've mentioned Arthurian ideas in this episode, in this season. We talked about the Lady of the Lake, Alice language a couple episodes ago. But the once and future king, which is, you know, we got an email about this, but I was already bumping really hard on this, right? But our listener Nick wrote in to say, my understanding of the once and future king term from The Legend of Arthur is that he was the king. He is not right now, since he is healing on Avalon, but he will return as the king in the future when Britain needs him. Essentially, he was the king and will be again. Unless I missed something, Alan is not now, nor has he ever been the Lord of the Ties. At best, he is a substitute hand, but he's not even legitimized. How could he fulfill the first half of the statement, even if he will? This would probably be one of the writer staff being too clever, but please help me. I don't, you know? I have no explanation for this. Maybe he's really leaning into the alternate history of having been embraced from day one. The once and future Lord of the Ties? Not the once. I don't know what to say about it. He wasn't. Bizarre. It's just, again, it's an episode really rooted in the idea of self-mythology. Sure. And building your own brand. So he's, uh, he's trying to do that. The Ormond approach. But it doesn't make sense. Always. He went to Ormond school and he wasn't fully paying attention. That's okay. This is where we're going to jump, actually, very quickly just to elsewhere in the episode to talk about the Alan Adams scene while we're here with, with Alan. Later, when Alan is waiting to escort Rhaenyra to the Sept. Adam comes up and he's like, you know what's going on with Rhaenyra? Like this egg on news has sent Rhaenyra down a dark path. That's what Adam says. And mentioned specifically the treatment of Bela. And Adam is, um, not moved to that, to, by that at all. I, I thought that Alan not caring about the Bela part of this seemed weird. I. There's an ongoing weirdness inside of this love triangle that they've created here. Yeah. I think if there were like one other, like, one other, like, one other, like, one other scene between these two, uh, between Adam learning that Bela and Alan, like, got together and then an Alan and Adam scene where they talked about Bela. So for Adam to bring up Bela and be like, do you not care that Bela is locked up and Alan to be like, I'm not engaging with this with you? Like, that would make more sense to me. And then Adam would be like, I'm worthier of her love than you are. Yeah. Because I care that she's grounded or we're bonded because we're dragon riders or all these other things. But it's just like. I felt, I think that thematically what ends up happening with Alan and the High Septon works okay. And some of the. I really like it, actually. Some of the takeaways, like, work well. It's deeply upsetting. As we'll, as we'll get to. Very, very. Remember when he was like, cats, they're fun. I am missing. I know. I, too, that, that was very recent. I am missing a couple Alan scenes. Like, that, that Adam-Bela, uh, conversation for sure. And another Alan-Rhaenyra moment, I think, as well, before the High Septon scene. We got a reaction shot, but, like, what conversation has Alan had about Lord Corlys is in Tumulton. You know, like, how do I care about, what, what do I think about this finger gift that I received? Like, what should we do? You know, like. Yeah. It's the stifling, like, the, the, the stoicism that he presents here and just sort of this, like, stifling down of his humanity to execute on the Queen's wishes. Yeah. Um, it's an interesting place to find him. For sure. Yeah. I, I'll just agree with you. Yeah. We're missing just, like, a few steps along the way. We are. And I think it's, like, it becomes. Because Alan in particular is so close to, uh, Rhaenyra as now this, like, really trusted right hand, the, you know, we, we've talked about this in other contexts with other character sets. Like, we got such wonderful time with Ormen, Daeron, more than we would have expected with Gawain, et cetera, and really benefited from that. We talked with Chris on Sunday about, like, not feeling like we got enough time with the Riverlords or the Wolves for some of the Roddy, Rod, Roddy and Allie stuff to land. Alan is actually a character we've gotten a decent amount of time with, but we're so close to Rhaenyra where, like, the progression is so intentional and methodical, and we have, we have gotten to witness, bear witness to every step along Rhaenyra's journey. Now, Rhaenyra's the main character of the show, so there's not going to be an equivalent there for all the people around her. But this, I just felt a little jarred by the Alan thing. And I don't know, it is weird. It's like the difference between does the outcome and ultimate place not make sense? That's not how I feel about it. But wanting to better understand how the character got to that headspace, because I think it's interesting to see. Yeah. Like, in this Adam-Alan moment, an inversion of how, you know, even just from what we glimpsed from them briefly in season two, we know that they always thought about the desire, like, the desire for more, the desire for courtless, the desire for a different thing, you know, so to hear Adam say a glorious assent for a bastard and really cement the fact that this has flipped, you know, that the thing Adam used to want is now the thing that Alan has gotten a taste of. Right. And really relishes, which, like, we saw early in this season how delighted Adam was to be one of Rhaenyra's riders. So they've been moving in opposite directions, and that has been clearly mapped. Yeah. I like that part of it. You know, to think that Alan, who has not only those whispered, but in a later scene, a scene after this, that whispered, old Valyria, blood of old Valyria line from Rhaenyra, and that, like, idea that this character who has wanted to be chosen by his father and wasn't has now been chosen. Right. in all of these different ways by Raniera that he is in this position yeah what it tells us about like the proximity to power the impact and the corrosive effect it has on all sorts of people in the realm not just the person who seeks to sit on the iron throne or wear the crown I like all that literally just missing like a scene or two to understand this felt it felt very rash to me for for Alan to be here so I mean again once again I would say um almost all of his scenes this season even his sex scene we mentioned this at the time were just still about his dad which like if him doing this because Rhaenyra offers to be his daddy in a way that his dad never was like I get that but I don't know I'm still yeah missing some depth of the Alan character yeah Ormond also getting suited up for battle reading some scrolls classic Ormond and watching Darren gazing out the window as Tumbleton readies for war because he's Ormond Darren's expression he's like it's all for you my boy classic um for for you by my design because I'm a messy manipulative bitch classic Ormond here really loved it manipulative bitch he is I'm gonna miss him so much yeah me too uh a king inspiring the masses to fight Joanna must be a knight what are you talking about this was insane and incredible I really like this Gawain's face Darren's face the looks of the past between them where they're like you know Darren's like Gawain jump in like you do this instead jump in and Gawain I loved the shot through the blade on Darren's shoulder where Gawain is just like so dismayed I think watching this a lot of really good perspective shots inside of this episode a lot of really good shots where the camera was sitting just right over someone's shoulder yeah um I I thought it was really really good um our listener Michael on this knighting ceremony a sham of own knighting ceremony beyond says interesting given the Hightower connection to the seventh day of the seven that Darren's knighting by Ormond was the first shown in the series that did not invoke the seven in the traditional in the name of the mother I charge you to so just like further exposing the hypocrisy of Ormond who who literally clothes himself in these images of the seven and is just sort of like not using any of that language here in this farce of a knighting ceremony where he says you this king that I've made serve me your liege lord I I thought the so funny this was so the decision not to use to the to the point of the email the more traditional and familiar knighting vow yeah was so perfect as was what filled that space instead it's not just that he's not doing the proper vow this guy who has obviously no idea what it means to really be a knight in the way that we talk about with characters like Brianne or like a character like Raymond who we just more recently got to watch this very emotional knighting ceremony within a night of the seven kingdoms um and I think it's really important that we have a lot of you know and so we have this evolution and in all this the knighting scenes in this season we got the great the seeds knighting and the comedy of that with with Adam and Hugh and Ulf earlier in the season and this one felt so rooted in hypocrisy and just necessity right it's like we got to do this thing we have to keep thinking about the brand and the image the way that Ormond says with this big smile this for me to the extent he's capable of a sincere emotion pride on his face Darren the daring and you just know I feel like we know Darren well enough at this point to know that he's like I haven't earned this I don't deserve it and you definitely don't deserve it to give it to me would you say I don't want it and then the fact that Ormond the gall this was such a great little detail and choice specifically invoking protecting the children as he is as we cut to the children yeah absolutely great the women and the children just so yeah very good but it's just it's just funny because we're used you know across game of thrones and night of the seven kingdom and even earlier this season and you know you you put this together in a beautiful like like cut that we got um earlier this season but like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't like we're so used to the rhythms of this nighting ceremony and so to hear it uh outside the normal rhythm yep and just very overtly missing yes the seven yes for the wrongness to be the point and for it to be so palpable and keen was just really really great I liked it quite a bit um off the white yeah going full off the sot really earning that moniker he's down in the kitchens what was your vibe of the I feel like the people were not really enjoying his show that he was putting on here oh I thought he was like a little assaulty a little grabby a little handsy oh definitely assaulty yeah but like yeah it just seemed like I didn't feel like people were like yeah this guy like no the one guy who almost looked like a seed yeah with the the targ hair he was like fuck off what the fuck yeah for sure the cook was maybe the most into it but even he was a skeptic so just like all you know if we got all's version of this everyone was super into it like I was I was the bell of the fucking ball I was the king of the party but the reality is even the you know this is all he's dreamed of being able to drink around people of his own station and initial station whatever you know and just sort of like being able to like and thinking about going back to when we met him and how he was surrounded by people who like kind of loved his shit you know and just like yes now he's just cloaked in this delusion of uh you know it's very huge talking to cat being like I got a dragon I got a dragon I got a dragon I got a dragon I got a dragon is not not the coolest she's like you smell like shit she's like disgusting yeah yeah oh I really love that point about the thinking back to the the pub days with the lads because while they found him they like they were in on the shtick so it was like part of the ridiculous but they like but they genuinely liked him and it it does kind of make you think back to Ulf going to Rhaenyra and appealing on their behalf as well like you know just like a little keep and just some pardons and we'll be fine like looking out for the people he knows and he also like earlier this season like him wanted to be a Targaryen right how would you style yourself Targaryen absolutely not absolutely not um but here in this speech he's like incest they're incestuous aliens don't you know what I mean he's like hitting the Targ racism here and so it was an interesting blend of attacking and insulting them yeah seeking to embarrass them queen of bastards for Rhaenyra mocking the daemon Rhaenyra marriage both the lead part and bitch in a kennel but also the like uncle lover husband stuff but then he's my bit I know come on the incest jokes on the quote cards yeah are ours cite yourself he like dragon styling himself dragon lord styling himself uh lord Ulf he's like you won't give me the thing I want in all sorts of respects I'm gonna fucking take it for myself and Orman's about to of course find that out as well uh in a very crispy fashion I would like to ask if I don't know does wigwatch tm with Joanna Robinson tm extend to faux hair on a helm or no that's either called a crest or a plume I was trying to figure out like what the exact terminology for that was um I really liked it you hated that the hell I thought it was absolutely perfect for Ulf it looks so stupid and it's like here it is the Targ hair that I don't actually have right like Hugh has Targaryen hair Ulf does not but he is like a you know affixed it via horse hair to the top of his helm I think it's great great stuff it's just like too big for his head it's perfect uh it was gigantic and quite long seems very impractical to me for for battle but what do I know what do I know I'm sorry it's fired that's what you know it's what I know Rhaenyra's gazing at the crown Viserys's crown at Viserys's legos gazing anymore her gazing days are over boy I do you think this means that I I made the joke on talk of the throne I'm sorry a bad lie yeah but maybe it was actually like the sex was so good Rhaenyra's like I can't afford any distractions yeah get her out of here that's my preferred I'm focused I'm a professional I know she is she is Elinda comes in and says Helena's not eating the maesters are worried they're concerned about Helena they're concerned about the babe Rhaenyra is gonna deal with this in short order in a pretty disturbing way Elinda has to do so much bad news delivery in this episode I just think that Rhaenyra it's not even I put in the outline having Elinda dump Massaria and kick her out was the Westerosi equivalent of like dumping someone via text but it's actually worse than that it's like back in the day remember when we were younger I do and you were like tell tell um exactly Rick I don't know exactly that I don't like him we had landlines and we would always do the three-way call so you'd like have someone else do your dirty work or like fish to see if someone had a crush on you but everyone you you knew the other person was like probably on the line listening the breed yeah wild stuff um Rhaenyra is very chill here as always when asking Elinda before the Massaria aspect of this to summon Alan for the escort to the sept there will be no doubt who the gods have chosen to rule okay everything's fine and uh Massaria when Elinda goes to share this news the Targaryen soldiers they barge in they've got packing crates I mean that's just rude like let Elinda go in and tell her first hysterical though that Massaria is not going to let Elinda go in and tell her first hysterical though that Massaria is not going to let Elinda go in and tell her first hysterical though that Massaria is in her beautiful silken gown putting on fancy jewelry oh she's putting on new earrings she's like I heard what Sylvie said and I've decided to lean in I do not want to leave the White Lotus yeah exactly I don't um I I will say this and this is this is not book spoilers this is just me feeling like whatever I feel really justified in my whole like Elinda as Massaria's person more than Rhaenyra's person she's torn up here I had no spoilers for that but it's just sort of like now Massaria's gone and Elinda's gone and Rhaenyra's gone and Elinda's gone and Elinda's gone Alinda feels really bad about it and Alinda is still there in renewal. Rhaenyra's closest circle uh if I were Rhaenyra I would be worried not well Rhaenyra's not paying attention um I I would just like to read a little bit from uh season three episode five this is from the oracle Alicent yeah I simply urge you to think of yourself there is good in Rhaenyra but the crown is a weight that crushes Rhaenyra will do in the end what she has to do and what she has to do will be dire there is only one who can walk that path with her and she chose him long ago Masaria she knows what Daemon is and Alicent says they have ever been two sides of a coin as much as she may deny it her attentions may be on you now that you bathe in the warm light of her gaze but you stake so high a wager on the whims of a dragon rider Alicent was right about a lot rich words from the mouth of a Hightower but anyway Alicent was right no room for Masaria as a counterweight to Daemon when you're all in on Daemon when you are trying to just well and what and no room for a non-dragon rider honestly what Ryan was saying was if we if we think of them as like an angel and devil on her shoulder if that's it's not that easy but let's say it is two devils yeah uh she's listening to devil on the left now so yeah devil on the right is not even like welcome in the building she cannot even look at him uh at her um I think there's something too about the idea of well it's it feel for her humanity yes and like so somebody who not only is going to challenge and counter Daemon's worldview and philosophy but someone who is appealing to something in Rhaenyra that Rhaenyra feels now that she has to stifle and quiet and even just then there's the more practical like kill the boy kill the person yeah it's sad like when she calls her Rhaenyra yes the intimacy the vulnerability so there's a little bit of the I maybe need to get someone who I know knows how to work me away from me like a practical element but also like a someone who has seen me I don't know if that's true I don't know if that's true I don't want to look in this mirror anymore yeah yeah fair enough um she's like you get to go to Pentos where is the gold coming from for this uh maybe she sold literally a gown um the old shay uh the Pentos temptation that always goes well that's where the blonde babies are by the way uh we got a lot of emails asking where the blonde babies are uh Rhaenyra and Daemon's children I am surprised to have zero updates at the end of the season this you warned me that that was likely where we were we're heading but I am surprised though there are two blonde babies Joffrey is awake I thought Joffrey's crown looked a little circlet on his head looking great look great but there are two other sibs yep they're blonde and they're often Pentos I guess nobody seems to give a shit except me the mermaid's kiss that's right uh which is the boat that she's going to depart on yada yada yada something fire and blood I'm not gonna get into it but also the name of a ship in in uh Game of Thrones Quentin Martell mermaid's kiss is it the same ship who knows but it is it has its own wikipedia page the mermaid's kiss so you know an important boat a lot of boat stuff which is not going on the boat so it doesn't matter no she in a in a moment that um I don't want to be reminded of season one episode nine basically ever and just like scooting off the wagon because there's a lot of shit going on in the city yeah it did make me think of the way that Eric your favorite character and Renice were just like kind of able to get where they needed to go she had a cloak the hood was up oh man something you need to ask yourself are these cloaks of invisibility oh it's a great question interesting food for thought HBO crossover event imagine the merch possibility oh my god you get a cloak of invisibility in the Paisley that Misaria is rocking wow why not before Misaria perhaps with magical aid vanishes among the people she has to exit the red keep and she will pass Helena because Helena you noted the kind of gray pallor the just the tears this outdoor space the gods would the bugs a place of prior peace not braided devastation Queen's Guard comes over got to take you back to your confinement it's just all incredibly bleak and sad for a character we adore and Helena moves into the courtyard this was we've done a really great job this season with sound design and just the little shift when Helena entered the courtyard of the dreamy deja vu oh my god okay there are people around it's not exactly the same but like I just dreamed of this courtyard there's the pale mare fuck right it was just it gave me a little chill um the sense for Helena the hour is near and for book readers that the hour is drawing near and then Misaria walks down the steps Joanna and what does she say to Helena oh she's like do not trust the queen Aegon has returned his dragon lives your unborn child is a hostage a prize by which you can hold power of your enemies she will never release you this is it's a lot to get out in a in a sort of brushing of shoulders moment so good good very efficient from Misaria so Helena just looks completely hopeless hearing this uh Rhaenyra immediately and I mean immediately we're not even out of the fucking building folks bit in the ass Rhaenyra immediately and I mean immediately we're not even out of the fucking building folks bit in the ass by casting Misaria aside this question of how do you treat your people and what happens as a result for the last time probably not big reap and sow an episode for all of our characters you mentioned our talk the thrones one of the things you loved about this in terms of a tie to the book do you want to share that with the the deep dive listeners as well well so when Helena dies in the book uh similar mechanism out the window onto the spikes like um there is a lot of mystery surrounding her death did she jump was she pushed um and Misaria is is in many of the rumors Misaria is linked to Helena's death so we were wondering earlier in the season like I thought when Misaria had that that housemaid killed who knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant yes and she's like that one kill her yeah I thought she was gonna elbow bump Helena out the window because Helena knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant I thought it was entirely possible that so I thought Misaria might kick her out the window but instead Misaria let's say trying to help her gives her this advice here and and if you want to use the Rhaenyra passive voice assigning blame thing you could say that Misaria's words whispered to Helena are the reason Helena goes out the window I think there are a number of other you know signs importance and stuff like that but connecting Misaria to Helena's jump out the window is a fun fire and blood connection that I really enjoyed I pulled the whole passage and then realized that 80% of it doesn't apply to the show in terms of the other scenarios and characters that were mentioned so no point in reading that part that didn't exist pretty pretty funny actually to look at that anything uh but the last sentence the Misaria one Septon Eustace suggests that Lady Misaria the white worm chose this night to tell Helena of the death of her son Maelor and the grisly matter of his passing I think we could say that Helena's dead like oh yeah there is this other kid there's another kid Maelor this is what George lost his shit about in his blog post where he was like because there's no Maelor baby Maelor uh Jaheron Jaheris's uh younger brother Maelor because he doesn't exist on the show and then he dies horribly in the book awful I mean on the list of all of the appalling deaths in Fire and Blood that's high up there baby ripped apart very bad okay so like grim Maelor dies a bitter bridge and uh because that doesn't happen in the show George is like how are they gonna make Helena jump out the window if Maelor doesn't exist and and you know and in George's version of whatever version of the script he read he was like there's no reason for Helena to take her own life without Maelor's death and all of us watching this season are like I don't we've talked about this before in the spoiler section but like yeah we can put it on main now yeah we can I don't know if they changed Helena's storyline after George had that reaction to it and we're like okay we got to do some work this season to make it really clear why Helena would go out the window and I think every single person watching the season can be like oh I get why Helena went out the window like no question yeah um Joanna what was that blog post called yeah uh what was it called toxic butterflies what is it beware beware the butterflies so hard not to think about that I have no clue we did ask Ryan about this with like we had I have to admit some shit-eating grunts on our faces when we asked him about this about the butterfly he did not take the bait but like that is definitely why we asked about the use of the butterflies in this episode because I think there's no doubt in our minds I'm sorry it feels like it'd be where the butterflies wink but it is also symbolically rich in terms of the metamorphosis of yes there's no doubt in our minds that the reason that a bunch of butterflies take flight uh when Helena dies is is a nod to George's very very saline rich uh blog post that he wrote about Helena's death um character arc handled uh devastatingly but well ultimately we had a lot of great time with really really good terribly we did get an email from someone who works on the show that the um that the vision that Helena has uh of of her and two children in the future was supposed to be and and and so this idea of like again every vision of her future that she dreamed whether it's like I shall become a dragon rider or I will take my own life out the window or I will escape and raise my children it's just like a bad outcome no matter what yeah and so in order to not become a dragon rider in order to not lean into this corruptive power or to not choose a happy future for myself that so neglects sort of the cost that it would have for the realm, I will take my own life and the life of my unborn babe at the same time. Yeah. I mean, when we, again, talked about the dream fire vision and this idea of thinking of the things Helena has said last season and just over the episodes about, I don't want to burn anyone not wanting to be a part of this doom that is increasingly inescapable. I think that that Masaria connection to the text and just the question of what Helena hears there and the sense of an inescapability, of confinement, of no path to the life that she wants to lead coupled with the doom that populates each glimpse of a life she could potentially lead or was not able to lead. That question of like for a dreamer, seeing something in the future or a number of different somethings in the future, and the sense, you know, the way that Helena has talked about other things in the future, that Helena, we see the tapestry that Rhaenyra picks up at the end of the episode, Helena has stitched in full her suicide. There's the question of like, well, was, did Helena accept that this was her fate or did these other things push her? And I think the answer could be both. Well, I think what's interesting about her dream is that there are options here. Yeah. Inside of her dream. There is like, I could become a dragon rider or I could been raised chickens or I could take my, like if she only dreamt of taking her own life out the window, if that's all she saw, one option, you know, but that's not how she's ever described her dreams. It's just sort of like, there's some phrases and also just sort of like very Galadriel's mirror, like might yet come to pass, you know, like it's not set in stone. It's not clear. And so, so in terms of like that idea of a free will of a dreamer, I think because she's of various paths forward that, but all of them are bad, but like it introduces ad choice. None of the choices are good. Yeah. But there is a choice for her to make. I think that this was handled pretty well with Helena in this season to that point. I think that what Helena said to Eamon last season wouldn't make any difference, positions us in more of a cemented, your destiny is like fixed place. Once again. Kind of, I just think a very strange thing for the show to do. Yeah. So I think we have updated the relationship and the role that choice plays. And then, and also then the things that happened to you, the influence that that has on the way you see your future and the future that you, you seek or think you can forge felt, I thought, pretty well-crafted this season. Speaking of well-crafted, we have an Alice Rivers backstory. Holy hell. My God. Eamon, Haunted, again, by Aegon's screams, by his own cries for help, wakes up and has to confront the fact that his own mom, who he wants to fuck, poisoned him. I continue to be very moved by Aemon to this season. I think I might be in the minority here, honestly, but I thought the way that he confronted what Alicent did to him was very, even though it was just a quick beat, very sad. Oh, yeah, that was amazing. And Alicent's like, yeah, your mom poisoned you. You're alone, but guess what? We can be alone together, and that's going to be pretty fucking hot. And Aemon's like, I'm a Kinslayer, I'm cursed, you should get away from me. And I really like that Aemon has definitely heard my favorite line, no man is as cursed as the Kinslayer. And also just want to remind everyone that he is still a Kinslayer just because Aegon is alive. He killed Luke, he's a Kinslayer, no matter what. Joanna, we, since Alice debuted in season two, have shared a couple different times over the years and seasons this passage from Fire and Blood that we loved about Alice. And the mystery of Alice. Because this is part of, like, our relationship to the characters, not knowing exactly who she is and where she comes from. The castle's small folk became his captives as well. Amongst them, a wet nurse named Alice Rivers. Who was this woman? A serving wench who dabbled in potions and spells, says Munkin. A woodswitch, claims Septon Eustace. A malign and gentrous who bathed in the blood of virgins. To preserve her youth, Mushroom would have us believe classic Mushroom. So this is all new to us. And we get it with Alice away from Aegon. Again, the perspective of the camera. We're on her face, seeing what struck me, at least, as sincere emotion. I thought so. I think it's interesting that, you know, Ryan said to us in the interview that it's possible that Alice is making this up. Yeah. That's not how Gail Rankin performed it, I would say. You know, it's possible that that's a thought that the writers have in their mind. But Gail Rankin certainly, I think, made the decision. Or I don't know how many different takes they did or whatever. Maybe she did different performances of it. But this version that they chose for the final cut reads to me, especially since Aegon cannot see her face. Yes, exactly. And we can. It's very sincere. As a woman being very sincerely wracked with the grief of the true story that she's telling. What does she reveal? What is that true story? Oh, my God. What is the true telling, to borrow a term, from this fictional universe? So Harrenhal was melted by some dragons. You might have heard of that. Mm-hmm. And Harrenhor was the Lord. Harrenhal, when that happened. And the implication here is that she was his lady wife and that she had a child who died. And that she tried to do everything that she could to undo that. And the bargains that she made had a cost. Yes. And the cost was she's cursed to live forever. Yeah. Prisoner. Yes. Of Harrenhal or its surrounding areas. I guess she can go visit and kill some people if she needs to. Unlike Helena, she can go outside for as long as she wants. So, yeah. So, she mentions her title, you know, that she lost her name and she lost her title and stuff like that. So, she seems like she was the lady of Harrenhal. Yeah, because there's a possibility for a second of, oh, was she a mistress? But, yeah, the lady. Yeah. So, she was the lady of Harrenhal. And we knew that Harrenhal had sons, multiple sons. Right. Didn't know anything about the wife. So, this is fascinating. This is fascinating as it pertains to, I don't know. I just, we talked about this in Talk of Thrones. I just love when magic has a cost. I was just reading this really fun duology of books that's based on Giovanni fan fiction by Bridget Knightley. But it's literally called Your Cost. Literally called, like, when you use your powers, how it physically makes you ill in that book is called Your Cost. And I just, like, always love that. I love that idea of the cost of doing magic. And especially this, like, very dark, nature-defying, trying-to-resurrect-someone sort of magic. And so, I love this idea. I love when Ryan was talking to us about it. And he was like, something we knew in season two. Something we were like, hey, Gail, don't say this in your press interviews. Perhaps after Gail in that Entertainment Weekly article was like, she's old. Real old. Move over, Melisandre. Yeah, she's real old. Yeah, it was funny. Yeah. Melisandre Liza wrote in with this email. It's titled, So You're Telling Me You're a Mom. Liza wrote, I have to assume this subject line was Eamon's primary thought when Alice built her heart and soul sharing her history and origin story about her dear, crispy, dead son. The mommy saga continues. Notice Eamon finally introduces Alice as his, quote, betrothed to Aegon, much to the surprise of Alice, after hearing the witchy mama backstory. That's right. Boy, that guy loves a mom. And, I mean, you know, she said as much earlier this season when she was like, I'm a mother, was aggrieved, you know, all these sort of things. So she hinted at this. I choose to believe that this is true, and I quite like it. Same. I think it's certainly further enriches. It's fun now to actually think back to, like, every prior Alice comment, but also moment and just think about why she has done the things she's done. But also her relationship to this place, which, like, we have talked about a lot, is very protective. She's like, I used to be the lady. Yeah, wanting to, like, have it and preserve it and the fact that she understands it in a way that other people don't. And that's all true still. But also the idea that she is imprisoned here and bound to this place and this nature of life. It's a long time to be alone. The despair with which she said that. What I like about what it recontextualizes is I was very much like, oh, Alice is, like, of the nature, an old spirit. The Lorax speaks for the trees. And I'm like, actually, she's an aggrieved noblewoman. Yeah. Who was like, I wasn't, this was my house and I was in charge and now I have to watch. All these other chuckle fucks come in and mismanage it. But it just reminds me of, you know, to your point about Damon or Orman, like, the entitlement of this is just sort of like. Totally. She's been cursed. All of these things are true. But also there is just the indignity of how far down she's come from the heights of being lady of Harrenhal. Yeah. And to the nature point, the idea, too, that, like, something about your relationship would change but not for the reasons you would have wanted it to. Like, she. She does have this now sense of the ancient power of the place, as we've heard her talk about. But the fact, like, the way that she describes treated with things that lived in the forest. I love that word treated. Me, too. Also, that's, like, just now I have all this stuff running through my mind about, like, Alice going to the Isle of Faces. So that's fun to think about. I wonder if we'll learn more at any point. But, you know, the idea that Alice's connection to that and understanding of it is richer for this horrible world. And that's the reason that watching her son kneel down and say, you know, I'm going to go to the Isle of Faces. Nearly on the brink of death from Dragon Flame and trying to fend off this thing and seeking this magic that could not challenge the power of Dragon Flame. And then thinking about how Alice is seeking dragons of her own through that specific lens of her relationship to dragon power and dragon might and dragon terror is, like, so fascinating. I was thinking of that. There's the Jaime line in Feast. We've been talking. You flagged early this season, like, the number of Feast for Crows moments and this passage about Harrenhal. This castle has an ill repute and one that's well-deserved. It's said that Harren and his sons still walk the halls by night of fire. Those who look upon them burst into flame. Many ghost stories about Harrenhal, but just the idea for the Song of Ice and Fire fans, like, the horrible idea that Alice has spent a century inhabiting the same space as her son. Like, she has mentioned ghosts many times. And it's kind of in a, I'm going to scare the would-be bounty hunter who's here and doesn't get this place, but to think about maybe the terror and the grip that that has had on her. Very Rhaenyra seeing Jace walking around. No question. Yeah, and it goes back to, like, from the first when we were talking about Harrenhal in our coverage of season two several years ago. And we were talking about the thematic way in which Harrenhal across. The various texts from George has represented this sort of idea of grasping for power. The fact that it is described as sort of like a hand reaching to the heavens. And so, again, this idea of Alice as someone who had power, had feudal power, and has been brought low. And was looking to grasp unnatural, you know, put a stopper on death kind of. Right. Kind of power that does not belong to humans in this world. But also as a person who was looking to be restored to as the queen of Harrenhal. Yeah. The lady of Harrenhal. And now she wants to do it with Aemon and some dragon babies. I ship it. I'm sure it'll go well. I ship it. Something that has not gone fine is the relationship between Rhaenyra and Helena. Rhaenyra's back on her. Sister bullshit here with Helena trying to get her to eat. Helena could not possibly be more ready for Rhaenyra in this moment. Here are some of the things she says to her. In response to Think of the Babe, you're thinking of him now. Just calling Rhaenyra out as a once in future baby killer. That was Daemon. That was Daemon. Once in future bitch. I mean, Helena would say that. I could see it. I would wear a shirt that says once in future bitch. Make it. Bad babies. Put it on. That's it for us. You cannot think I would harm you, Rhaenyra says. And then that's when we get the great. Do you think there's nothing more? Do you think life is nothing more than not being dead? Our father would hate you for this. Great. And most devastatingly of all, all the things you care about are ugly. This place is ugly. You yourself. Ugly. Now. Rhaenyra's like, wait till you see my new eye makeup though. And you say that to me again when I'm wearing that. It's a scroll stopper on Instagram. When you see that eye makeup, it really is. The withering rebukes for Rhaenyra, like, it would be intense for anybody to say these things. But undeniably, there is something about Helena. To borrow Alison's phrasing, the gentlest. The gentlest of us, yeah. Saying these things, that is just so damning. I love the beetle story that happens here. I mean, at any time, Helena talks about bugs as a treat. But this idea of this beautiful beetle. Who embodies the idea of do no harm, right? Just eats little shit. Yeah. Lives off the waste of others. Yeah. Does not kill to survive. Is beautiful, even if it's a shit-eating bug or whatever. And Rhaenyra's like, can't wait to hear more about this bug. And she's like, show me next time. You're fucking lying. I know you don't give a shit about this bug. But I just, like, really love that. That Rhaenyra's like, sure. Can't say no. The beetle. Can't wait. Can't wait. And Helena's like, stop bullshitting me. You've been bullshitting me about bugs my whole life. I'm over it. I know this is a great scene and horrifying, of course. To watch the force feeding that happens when Rhaenyra walks out. Absolutely horrifying. The fact that Rhaenyra, you know, because she's like, don't, again, don't make me do this. The bullshit, the foe, this is, you're forcing my hand. This is a choice Rhaenyra's making. And to your camera angle point, you know, we get, like, we see Rhaenyra's not torn up about this. So that's painful to confront. And the background, the way that we see these Targaryen soldiers pinning, holding Helena down and ladling forcefully food into her throat in the background, Rhaenyra in the foreground, like, that was just really, really good. And I thought, you know, Rhaenyra has spent so much of this season, whether it was, like, assessing Ormen's strategy and intention or, you know, if we go back to the beginning of the season, if we go back to last season, something like Otto orchestrating in the wake of Daemons, again, to be clear, blood and cheese fiasco, the Rhaenyra the cruel harbinger at Jaehaerys' funeral procession. Call him by his real name. Like a, like, baseball. Baseball head. Baseball head, a little seam neck, yeah. Just really big stitches. So worried that head was going to just roll off the whole time. You know, Rhaenyra has been thinking. Very actively and talking in the show about this, they will call me Maegor returned, right? This Maegor the cruel comp that we know her enemies, her foes are actively seeking to cultivate. In a scene like this with Helaena, you feel it certainly in the Bela scene with the grabbing of the face, obviously with what's going to happen with the High Septon. With this scene with Helaena, there's this, like, perception that Rhaenyra feared and was seeking to fend off and was very conscious of, which only makes it more devastating to really watch this transition from. Who do you think I am? Who she says constantly to Alicent and to Daemon and, like, what horrors do you think I'm capable of? Yeah, exactly. And then she's like, guess what? Yeah. From the realms delight to Maegor returned. The realms delight was never really a good appellation for Rhaenyra. Remember when Aegon was like, the realms delight, talking to Laerys in season two about what he wanted? Everyone was so fucked up in the show. It's great. Time for Rhaenyra to debut a new look, and it is so spectacular that we would like to see it once again. Looks spectacular. We've got some notes on the policy, but no notes on the fit. Drip Queen. So, the male in the armor conveying strength, martial strength, masculinity for sure. Viserys' crown's still there to convey that legitimacy. I was his chosen heir. I am the one who has inherited this prophecy. The eye makeup, Joanna. Tell us everything. Splendid. Well, I really liked your assessment that it looked sort of like the slitted pupil of a dragon's eye. It's not really exactly what they said in the behind the scenes. They said- War paint. Yeah, war paint. They were looking for sort of this like rusted, red, bloody, crusty, and that both the makeup artists and Emma Darcy were sort of experimenting with like something they wanted Rhaenyra. Elinda didn't do this. Rhaenyra did this. So, like they were just sort of like smearing it around. Elinda was too busy. She was too busy like saying to me, sorry, I don't get it. Breaking up with people. Yeah, exactly. Monitoring Helena. Elinda had a lot on her plate. Always does. Always does. So, it seems like Emma Darcy at one point in the makeup chair just kind of went like this. Incredible. And then they showed it to Rhaen. Rhaen told us in the interview that they showed it to Rhaen and Rhaen's like, that's sick. Looks great. I think it's awesome. It's really cool. I saw some people who did not like this look at all. Really? I think it looked well. There's people who just like love to not like things, but like this image came out before the episode. And I saw a lot of people critiquing armor. I just think it's a fantastic look. I think the armor looks great. I think the makeup looks great. I think the way in which it just sort of like really hardens her, makes her so scary. She talks about, Emma Darcy talked in, again, I think no one talks more intelligently about their character than Emma Darcy does. But this idea, again, of this idea of taking a page out of Orman's book and wrestling down some iconography and this fascistic imagery. It was very, it's funny. The Darth Vader comp has come up a bunch in the behind the scenes. You hate it. I don't love it. But what it makes me think of is Donald Gleeson as the First Order. That sort of like Star Wars fascistic imagery in The Force Awakens. That was in all the trailers for The Force Awakens, you know, just sort of like barking out about the First Order with the banners. Sort of all around him and stuff like that. So, yeah. Yeah, I love that Emma comment. Rhaenyra is cognizant of the image making. And we, you know, our girl, Linda, has come up so many times today. And I think it feels right at the end of the season to be talking about a Linda this much. But that coaching session with Rhaenyra on the precipice of hearing petitions for the first time in episode three, which we love so much, you know, really thinking about what is every single choice going to convey to somebody. So Rhaenyra has been primed for this, thinking about it. What would it mean to hold a sword? What would it mean to wear a chain? Et cetera, to wear jewels. And so the, like, deliberate nature of every single one of those choices. really feels like a rewarding place to have built i i think that the um you know with the the winged the dragon winged armor like shoulder blade thing you see to convey dragon strength and the targaryen inheritance but just the confinement of the face and neck in particular with the male like the way that that yeah the hair that right exactly the um the idea of just like stifling and suppressing whatever humanity remains in order to craft and forge the image that you think the realm demands of you yeah is uh boy really hit really hit joffrey has a new look too yeah a little circlet little princeling do you think that these two have had a conversation while he was awake before this moment a single other conversation i don't know in the litter over to the sept rhaenyra sees queen of bastards scrawled on the walls and uh that's the right a cementing of this focus on legitimacy and needing to reinforce it that has led rhaenyra so astray but has been so central the fact that like when the uh queen of bastards with the strong sigil scrawl came up earlier in the season rhaenyra saw it as a threat and now like it's a thing she sees right before she shifts into that different tone of voice and tells joffrey about the prophecy and then of course goes to the sept and does what happens there now it's just further vindication right it's one more reason one more bit of proof that all the choices she's making are necessary interesting so that was interesting um here's what she says to joff interesting assessment queen of bastards i need to think about it yeah what did you think of the instagram carousel before the finale that was like queen of bastards i can't remember the exact phrasing for amand and egg on but the amand one was like one-eyed kinslayer or something and the egg on was basically like he's back so so funny really great did you see emma's uh speaking of instagram carousels emma did a sort of like thanks so much for everyone who worked on this season and one of my favorites was there was a an overhead shot of um viserys's crown uh and a post it that said soft and so i think it was just sort of like in terms of like hero props like this is one of the ones that was like made of rubber incredible you know i think it was just sort of because i'm sure it was like quite more comfortable to wear the rubber version than but like when when raniera has to sort of grasp it and look at it you don't want it flopping around so you've got the metal version of it as well i like to think it's also just a little dunk on viserys soft soft boy soft boy viserys the peaceful soft um viserys on our minds certainly here we don't see the full conversation between raniera and joffrey but she begins we've seen it and we'll see it again uh it's in short order in front of the masses the setup i thought this was really interesting to compare and contrast when raniera told jace which of course she directly invokes in this scene you know the the moment where she told jace because both this with tumbleton unfolding elsewhere and the moment she told jace rooks rest are on the eve of battle so there's some like urgency to why she is sharing this but the substance and tone are so distinct like when she's telling jace first of all she says i never told you because i was unsure that i believed in myself so we're in a position of doubt and doubt is actually healthy and good and normal and important and i think that's a really important part of the to be in a position where you're like is this right is this okay should i seek more counsel should i pursue more wisdom that's not the tone here it's not the tenor here it's not where raniera is and then there's also just the difference between like i had to exhaust every path for peace into we are in a moment of violent embrace well what i think is there's a couple things of course that are different here one is that raniera has hardened herself to letting joffrey in the desert right so um a lot of grief yeah so she's like i'm not i'm not up for this yeah right i can't do that anymore so i've got to be this more like hardened version of myself like i'm your mother and i am the monarch and all this sort of stuff like that but also given the way that she delivers this information later on uh to the masses yeah much to your delight my favorite yeah it's not this is a prophecy you need to know for the future i am the prince who was promised i am it's not yeah one along the line will be you might be it might be one of our ancestors it's me right right now i like the way and i am the chosen i am the chosen one not i need to be on the throne so that one of my ancestors can be the chosen one it's me it's so gnarly if you really play out the string on that because because what does that mean it means like almost in some sick twisted warped way you need the apocalyptic cataclysm in order to just definitively prove that you are the one it's dangerous these happen now so you guys all know and nobody like nobody doubts that i was right to do this oh god off we'll get back to raniera in the sept shortly okay everything's gonna go well right everything's fine for all of the characters they're all thriving and doing great lots of winners in this episode gawain uh our beloved gawain and darren are watching orman loads of the children onto the battlements and freak out at smelly proximate townspeople and panic whisper with paul john roxton and darren's like they're hiding it even from me so ormond of course with the kids plan a is still like you know deterrent maybe they won't burn the kids but plan b just as good to ormond is maybe they will and then maegor returned and for him he's like win win doesn't know that he's about to be dead tough one for ormond oh well darren the top by the way i house the dragons built not to jump ahead to ormond's death but tommy flanagan and i'm paraphrasing being like bum up the ass delightful way to go and then dragon fire was really something here's the best part in that quote here's the best part of house of the dragons built yeah they had to subtitle tommy flanagan because his accent was so thick they had to subtitle him on the like he's sitting there with his like sunglasses on gigantic font by the way yeah he's sitting there in in his sort of like at rest sunglasses on interview and he's just sort of like yeah it's like that scene from hot fuzz where you have no idea what people are saying it's so funny great movie here's what he said james gets a knife that size and he goes like this up his bum yeah delightful way to die and a dragon comes in and burns us both the crisps and then they show you show them like embracing after he's like done the bent over like shove up gesture man james orton really had to go through some stuff on it was the like 30 cups of campbell's soup mix when he had to puke earlier this season i don't know i think the person who had it the hardest in this behind the scenes was is it kieran bow is that hugh hammer yeah yeah he just had to like run and they were like everyone just wanted to go to lunch and everyone was hungry and he's like 25 more he's like my armor is so heavy that's really funny oh my god darren uh doesn't want to die for him real man of the people i call this the anti-joffrey what we saw from darren in this episode where he's like i must take wing i gotta get it's the opposite did my mother say that she had urgent business you know huh did you say that i was seeing her golden breastplate calling to me his options are to fight or to flee and gawain's like i might have another option come with me to this interesting little storage where corliss is this really reminded me both actually the visuals of just corliss against the wall but also the substance of what they're saying of the varus ned oh yeah pre-bail or obviously deliberately they're framing it in a similar way but first of all i i was like corliss has got jokes like the boy king and his squire very funny um but the ned varus vibes not only the setting just that like corliss has given a lot of ned like i grew up with soldiers i learned how to die long ago when he says my honor is all that remains to me do you really think i would hawk it and there's the kind of like madness of mercy appeal ultimately here about thinking about the cost more of the broad cost for the realm here than the very specific like what about your daughter's life but still yeah i'll end the brew uh here's the thing about gawain's pitch it is and we absolutely love gawain we are i think co-presidents of the gawain freddy fox's gawain high tower fan club this pitch was never going to work and it was i don't even know frankly kind of stupid i don't even know why i mean i understand that he's like coming under the banners of parla so he's like saved but like never gonna say it's just like him with like a dagger and some chains in his hand i'm like what did we think we were accomplishing here worth it for the moment where gawain lifts his foot so that corliss can take one step and then puts it back down hysterical um damon you know he and her craxies have arrived they've got to pause from talking shit about kristin who got one more dunk here it's like oh so easy to forget gawain introduces himself to damon yeah you this upsets you they've jousted they've jousted i thought this was weird i'm moving on what i will say is maybe gawain was like i was so unmemorable that would be sad i i feel confident he filleted his way through every turn and i support it since you mentioned the horse dismounting thing i've gotten served versions of that reel like no fewer than 7 000 times i've watched every single one it's the best um i just like the fact that matt smith and freddie fox were in a scene together other we deserve it we really we deserve it genuinely two of the greats uh Roddy is taunting Gawain mercilessly but Gawain ignores him long enough to say a thing that Alice in the book Alicent is credited uh with presenting this just divide the kingdom's plan the timing's a little different it's Rhaenyra has taken king's landing and there's this real desperate like well wait what if um what if we just split it all up she's like too late bitch queen into the golden shackles with you farcical then farcical now no question and uh Corlys jumps in with a suggestion that is not any more effective ultimately uh make Daeron warden of the south wed him to Rhaena breach the divide now of course very few characters in the show better position than Corlys to think about the impact or of the presence or absence of a marriage pact with the Targaryens right I mean who could forget 12 year old Rhaena walking through dragons must be lonely too sometimes I think back to that moment I'm like this show went for it from day one and no one can say otherwise my mother says I don't have to sleep with you until I'm 14 remember that oh my gosh and Viserys looks so stricken and he's like I'll go I don't know how old is Alicent supposed to be 16 I'll go for the 16 year old instead much more reasonable oh god so here's what Daemon says in response to Corlys's uh date on the pitch Gawain is just like fuck off right Corlys um basically calls him a traitor for suggesting any of this and says it was your wife who was passed over Corlys Rhaenyra sees the throne with a horde of dragons her rule is now unassailable a lot of unassailable rule talk from Daemon interesting that even in inside of the uh Targaryen line Daemon Rhaenyra the idea of their line their children will rule it forever in a day the prophecy what Daemon saw at Harrenhal what Rhaenyra has been doing to them is a lot of talk about what Rhaenyra has been doing to them told there's Targ supremacy for them even inside of the Targaryen line which was really reinforced by a comment like that um and then Daemon just like full mailed fist chokes Gawain and is like you can die like a fucking rat or right here it was scary same yeah I was worried um I what I think is interesting is what we're watching which I feel conflicted about but like a series of men discover that war is bad actually right so this is like Kristen Cole's experience at Rook's Rest right and then this is Corlys's experience at the gullet right if this be victory I hope to never experience it again and then this is Daemon's seemingly experience here at Dumbleton and so Corlys here is saying like what do you want from this do you want a pile of dead Hightower bodies or do you actually want peace it feels like it's directly I mean it's not like he became squeamish he went out and he was just brief interlude of just uh murdering pirates murdering a ton of triarchy that's different from war I guess you know where he's just sort of like it's Mappa yeah yeah yeah um but he's like I've I've seen what it's like yes to do battle like this I don't know I yeah I need to keep thinking it is interesting because Kristen Kristen still feels to me like it was really you know Kristen made sense to me yes and it was really about what does it mean to just be a mortal man yeah in a dragon war and then he still led all of his men to their deaths and only at the last second was like what if you let them go and I like this idea that like Daemon and Corlys are like what if you let them go and I like this idea that like Daemon understand what it's like to be on the wrong side of dragon warfare which he's you know because I was thinking I was like well when he was at the stepstones like he definitely saw he was definitely on the ground when dragon fight he was having happening above but all the dragons were on his side so he has never been on the other side right of an army that had because Vhagar fucked off an army that was like actually fighting against him so to feel that for the person like barring I think that's a really good point yeah I think that's a really good point yeah I think that's a really good point Like, I do think that people who are like, it makes sense to me that Damon would have this, be taken aback by the children that he burned and the screaming babies and the women because they were not at the fish feed. You know, these sort of, like, innocent, like, mothers and children and stuff like that. I don't know. I just think it's interesting, like, who this revelation is available to versus not. And what he'll do with it, and I think the fact that, again, in response to, like, well, don't you want peace? What about peace? I would want, whether it totally tracks or not, I would want any character looking at that to be like, oh, fuck. Also, I just think he's badly concussed. And probably grappling with the fact that Jon Roxy was kicking his ass. Tough one. He really was. Speaking of tough ones. Aemond. You know what phrase I love? Having your bell rung. Bell rung. Yeah. Yeah? I mean, Aemond got his bell rung for sure. And yes, absolutely. Oh, it makes me think of the other one. I love that flashback in the Carcross time. Wonderful stuff. Some Starks do some fucked up shit in this episode. Stark men. Not actual Starks. We'll talk about it. Dustins. Winter wolves. Greybeards. Some blondes before we get to the greybeards. Aemond wakes up from his dreams. And he is woken by the Targaryen alarm. Vhagar? With the beating of dragon wings. Dragon mummy? No beep, beep, beep for them. But it's not Vhagar. It's not her toe beans. It is sweet sunfire and his crispy king. Let's see it. It cannot be. You are dead. I'm alive. Imbecile. This is so good. Lying rid of the season. It's no question. From the usurper who brought us to war then. I mean. I'm alive. I'm alive is so funny. It's instantly indelible and iconic. Really great. I also thought the no, no, no, no. This was supposed to be fun. It was very amusing. Really good. There's a lot to talk about in this scene. So Aemond begs for Aegon's forgiveness. Falls to his knees right away. There's the shock, right? But also there is the contrition. Saying to him, I coveted what you had. I judged you unsuited, rightly. But he was like talking about it to Kristen Cole in his dumb hat from the word go. Like, it is I who is fluent in Valerian. Yeah, exactly. I've been to therapy. Exactly. Oh, boy, has he. Hair and all therapy, man. I've been dream journaling. Yeah. My mom tried to kill me. Mom tried to kill me. I've gone through a lot. Fucked a hot mom. Sure did. While dreaming of fucking their actual mom. We're gonna get married. Alice's face when he said Petroth and then Aegon's face was just so good. I loved the scene. Aegon is in real, like, eye for an eye. Vengeance mode, but he needs Vhagar. He needs allies, he needs support, he needs Aemon, he needs Vhagar. So he's like, maybe I'll think about forgiving you if you help me get these shitheels in line in Templeton and then put Rhaenyra's head on a spike. So this is a big show move. Yeah, this is not in the books. Now, we had been talking in the spoiler section a lot this season about how is the show going to pay off this mutual obsession that these characters have with each other if they don't interact? And here is the answer. The answer is this. They do interact in the show. We got this scene. What happens after this, we don't know. Ewan Mitchell was talking in the Inside the Episode about the kind of, like, the choice. Will he stay with Alice? Will he go with Aegon? So this is, like, new story to us. We don't know, right? The fact that. Because Alice is like, uh-uh. She's like, you need to stay. Yeah. Your dragon abandoned you. You need to stay. Real shift from, like, maybe she left to protect you. His dragon abandoned him. He can't go. Funny. There's certainly. High comedy from everyone in this moment. Certainly room to introduce a scene like this, because much about Aegon in this stretch of the story is unknown. Where is he? Pieced out, we don't know, and then we find out. So, like, there's room to play here, and I think, you know, as you talked about on Sunday on Talk of the Thrones, not only is there room to play, it. These two character arcs and the entwinement on the show, like, we need. We need these character beats. I thought the scene was pretty good. I really liked it. Pretty entertaining. A listener, JJ, wrote in on the response to my betrothed moment. Mm-hmm. JJ said, When Aemon called Alice my betrothed, I imagine a sitcom-style smash cut to the poor, nameless Baratheon girl, not Maris, left all alone at Storm's End since all the Baratheon men are out, quote, fighting the, quote, Dornish threat, heaving a heavy sigh. It would have been hysterical to get yet another Baratheon mention of Aegon. Aegon had been like, but what about? But that would require Aegon to have paid a lick of attention at any point. That would require that Baratheon girl to have a name. Exactly. Well, exactly. What about unnamed Baratheon girl? I liked the. The contrast in, you know, disposition, Aegon is, like, he's also seeing in Sunfire what the realm sees and what Rhaenyra fears that people see, this sanctioning, right? He's really, like, newly confident, determined, the way he says even, like, we'll go under my banner, no room for any confusion anymore. I thought the setting choice to, not just Harrenhal, but, like, inside of Harrenhal was really perfect because the Great Hall of Harrenhal, like, where the Great Council was, you know, where all of this began with the Great Choosing, with selecting Viserys over Rhaenys, perfect place for this exchange. But also just the fact that, even though we don't know exactly what choice Aemond is going to make, this is also where Rhaenyra flew in on Syrax as Daemon was amassing the Rivermen army and was like, put up or shut up, Time Buddy! Pledge your fealty or we have a problem. And he. Gives everyone to Nilfheim. Yeah. He swore to, uh, swore to all his queen! Swear to me. What is that queen up to? Glad you asked. Not great stuff, I would say. Making a very public push compared to Aegon's very private one, you know? Did the butter churner witness this? Who can say? Did the goats witness it? Who can say? A lot of people for sure witness what Rhaenyra is about to do. There aren't goats. There's one goat and it's also Alys. I just got such a thrill out of seeing the goat on the tapestry prop in House of the Dragons built. That was really a treat. Or a while back. Back in the middle of the season. Season 3, episode 4, asked Rhaenyra, after Rhaenyra's confrontation with High Septon Balman, does it matter? Does it matter? But also, uh, are we killing? That's right. We moved. Boy, life comes at you fast. A little joke about killing the High Septon to like. Are we killing Septon? Yeah. No, I would never. Apparently we are. Uh, Rhaenyra has to now counter the Aegon hype machine. The High Septon is not only no more. More compelled than he was previously. He's like, I told you I needed a body and guess what? I got one. My boy is back! He's alive! Imbecile princess! I think you may have six dragons, but I have a seven-faced god. It's a sick comeback. Might as well go out quipping. No question. Get the bars out there while you can. To harm me is to declare war upon the starry south. Now, he told Rhaenyra in the third episode. You would be wise to take me seriously. You would be wise to take the faith seriously. Not only like. The people need us, but don't make an enemy of the faith. And in addition to having that direct warning from this character, who she is about to order Alan to stab in plain sight of all assembled, um, there's a lot of historic precedent. Including her small son? I had a lot of like, oh my god, what is Joffrey making of all of this pangs for this sweet young boy? Show us your toe beads, Joff. No! Great crown, though, as you said. The history between, as we talked about earlier in the season, like, the faith in the Targaryens is, uh, quite fraught. And of all the Targs who had a rough go with it. Uneasy detente. Quite. Guess who had trouble maintaining even that uneasy detente? Magar. Correct! The exact comp Rhaenyra doesn't want, Maegor the Cruel. Magar loved to kill Sentinels. Boy, I just think also, like, Rhaenyra being so focused, understandably, on what does the public think? What do they think of me? What do they think of Aegon? Aegon, but not worrying about, like, what are they going to think of me killing this guy? Well, that's because she has not updated her dragon math. And she says, I have six dragons. That's tough. Babe. Tough. No. Okay. Very, very, very tough. Um, can I read this email from our listener, Addison, who gave us a real, sort of, like, crunchy version of history here. I just got a kick out of reading this email. In 1170, King Henry II was annoyed at the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Becket, a.k.a. his old chess bestie, because he didn't love the overreach. He didn't love the overreach from the crown into the church. Thomas Becket goes, Pope over the king, honey. I see you're king and raise you a pope. Probably the wrong thing to say to the king. So, King Henry II is like, Thomas Becket needs to go to sleep, like, forever. And also, he's back from exile on English soil, but he's in sanctuary in the cathedral, like, whatever. Okay. Actually, King Henry II says this iconic line, quote, Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest? An incredible thing. Four of his knights take that seriously, and maybe it was sounding a bit. a bit like blood and cheese, and get into Canterbury Cathedral, and they try to drag Thomas out. They can't, so they murder him in the cathedral, doing a big sacrilegious rut-row. Everyone can read up on how all of that ended up unfolding. Sacrilegious rut-row. Uh-huh. Really funny. This email's great. To quote one of the co-writers of the episode, T. McHale from Inside the Episode, Killing the high septon is insane. You know, she's killed the pope. Sac. Big sacrilegious. rut-row. Um, you quoted earlier in the pod, Alison's commentary on the state of inevitability, the morality, etc. When we think back to Rhaenyra's response to Alicent, when Alicent was like, you will do things that your heart would have recoiled from before you came to the throne, Rhaenyra said, I acknowledge the struggle. I dispute that I must become what I am not. And Alicent gave her the old time will tell. And now it has. Time has come. Mistold. Rhaenyra was just like. You know, how can Alicent not be on our minds? Not only because of that, but this slaying of the high septon takes place in front of their. One of their favorite spaces. The candle table at the sept. Their bestie candle ring. This place that for Alicent and Rhaenyra, multiple times across the years, and then, you know. Rhaenyra and Daemon. Briefly and more comically for Rhaenyra and Daemon. Okay. It might be really hard. Maybe it's too late. It's too late, Rhaenyra moment. Can we find a path to peace? Being, like, befouled with the blood of the faith here? Can I ask you a season-long question? Please. Like. How. On the sort of, like, subtlety of the writing front. Yeah. I think Alicent saying, like, five different times, like. Mm-hmm. Hey, Rhaenyra, you're gonna do bad things now that you're the monarch. And Rhaenyra being like, no, no, no, oops, I did. Yeah. Is like. Sure. Yeah. Not the deftest weave inside of this season, I would say. Still below Rhaena saying, uh. I wanted a dragon my whole life, and now I have one, and it's really rough. Rhaenyra's ready. Rhaenyra doesn't need another pass. Ready to make a speech to the masses, shares the prophecy with everyone. And, uh. I. I will say, I was struck by a couple of things. Um. Visual contrast to where we found Rhaenyra in the same location, earlier in the season. Rutabaga, rutabaga, rutabaga. Palms for the small folk. The. I think it was Claire. We talked about this on that pod, but, like, Claire talking about the kind of, like, saintly imagery, the way they lit Rhaenyra in that scene, right? Yeah, and this is obviously a drastically different, despotic, militant display. Like, upshot sort of thing. Yeah. Um. Sharing the prophecy, I don't have anything new to say here about this. The choice, like, I'm on the record. It doesn't track for me. That's okay. It does track inside of the show. There's a difference to me between inside of the show and across the canon. Well, it's been. It had been, like, a fun, mysterious puzzle for us to unknot, and now it's just sort of, like, okay, never mind. Yes. But. Yes. We can talk a little bit more in the spoiler section. We got some listener thoughts on this, but, um. I do like this idea of, like. And Condal said this, and certainly the show depicts this, that everyone watching her is like, like, what is this? What is this crazy lady talking about, right? No question. Nobody watching this is like. This is normal and good. Ah, I shall remember this. I'm in. I'm in. And tell all of the Septons when they're writing down the history of this. They're just gonna be like, that lady was rambling, and I had no idea what she was talking about, and then she switched to a different language altogether. I think this lady was rambling, I had no idea what she was talking about, and then she switched to a different language altogether is exactly the kind of thing that is commemorated in Fire and Blood. Honestly. Exactly the kind of thing that is commemorated. So. So. This is my. My personal, like. I just. Here we are. Inside of the show, I think that Rhaenyra making this choice makes sense. Does it align with Fire and Blood and this not making the history is. Does it totally track with some stuff in Game of Thrones proper? No. It is what it is. No. I do like thinking of the Night King being like. Dragonfire? Eh? Eh? But, of course, for the character, there's a lot to talk about here in terms of the story. There's a lot to talk about here in terms of just, like, what is driving Rhaenyra on and what is on display. So, invoking the Doom. First of all, she's like, long before my dad. Yeah, we've talked a lot about Viserys. Long before my daddy chose me, I was ordained. Right. Let me tell you about the Doom. And they're like, what? They're not interested. You know what's interesting on House of the Dragons built that we got? Obviously, they did different takes. There was a lot, like, the heckling and booing. But that was not what made the. There was more of a just sort of, like, bemused, silent reception, which is effective and tells us something in a different way. But taking from the. Taking from the Doom of Valyria, the wrong lesson, like, we were the only dragonriding family to escape because we're chosen and not the, oh boy, wait, are we bringing about another Doom? Tracks for where we find Rhaenyra now? Certainly. Invoking an ancient and sinister darkness. The look. Kris was very excited by this. The look that passed between, you know, we get a lands of always winter, the far north. The look that passes between Torn Manderly and Orweil. And Torn Manderly. Like, what the hell? All of the North and a learned maester of the Citadel. you talking about well or i mean maybe or they're like should we talk about this but either way they're tracking something specific that other people are possibly but i read that as just sort of like lenny this lady i did hear your you like love to say cuckoo bananas which is i could like hear you in my head saying cuckoo bananas i just had a very fun experience it was like you were there with me about raniera the thing that makes this this scene so good yeah because we never think she's killing it crushing it she's crushing it she's like i did i light the way i've had this only dragon fire okay so here's a question and this was i was too hung up on my bugaboo to like focus on this the first time around but this was something i was thinking about a lot prepping for the deep dive raniera is very hightower focused and to understand extent that makes sense but here's the thing while team green is hightower fueled and hightower coded the actual challengers for the throne are dragon riders yeah but they're targ towers they're but if agon hears about this he can just say i also am a targaryen dragon rider so i can say i can uphold that prophecy he's not going to say that because he's going to be like because how he's going to hear about is this your sister made the most cuckoo banana speech and no one's going to share any words of substance about what she said ever again if you say so she's cooked um was tywin on your mind you know the old any man who needs to say i'm king when raniera was like i'm the chosen and then switching ty valerian for i'm the prince that was promised now a lot of people fall into the any man who needs to say i'm king is no king camp but really palpable here with raniera certainly uh joff as you notice seems just you know really taking it all in he's like can i go back to sleep really taking it all in like i was loving those naps as you just calmly and quietly sat by my side not saying that you were raniera the chosen massaria watching her yes we'll talk about that in the spoiler section that's this is like a book change uh right that i think a lot of us who are book readers are drawing the same conclusion from yeah yes yes uh and the assembled you think a little bit of the jorah you know they don't care what games the high lords play from the crowd there or you think they do care and they just they're like less of this yeah more rutabagas i mean yeah i miss the rutabagas is what they said well the rutabagas in tumbleton are about to be on fire because the battle is going to be yeah that sounds delicious actually prophecy talk from raniera intercut with the scenes of mortal men readying for war very effective in terms of the editing of that sequence gave me a little bit of a um battle of winterfall long night vibe but like inverted in the sense that we see all of the townspeople who are imperiled but like in the north in season eight of thrones there's such a desperate effort to protect them and here it's all like what are we willing to do to them or who could be a pawn oh you mean when they huddled them down into the winterfell crypts it was always gonna be fine nobody had ever mentioned that the night king raised the dead so it was always gonna be fine it was you know i was it's so thank you for mentioning that because i was gonna go to sleep at night i think about peter dinklage trying to explain why tyrian one of the smartest characters in the show like let's sit by the graves by the tombs i i am glad you you said that because i was like trying to gird myself to come in today and say i'm gonna stop bitching about how it doesn't totally make sense that raniera would just tweet out the prophecy and then i remembered that it's been seven years since john didn't pet me and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna go to sleep at night i think about peter ghost goodbye and i've not stopped talking about it once and i won't sorry all right damon and his lieutenants they plan their approach some talk about main gates poster gates etc here's the thing there's just really one like thing to focus on for everyone and it's this take every care to preserve the town and its people the realm is watching the queen's moral standing must remain absolute right row black alley responds to this before we see rodney the ruin happily drive his axe into a young boy's face before damon reluctantly but ultimately dracarys is a gate the gate where a couple kids still stand black alley says to this sounds boring and this is really a deliberate choice that this episode made we were talking about raniera's descent where we find damon these the the entire team black faction i mean alan stabs the high septon roddy a character we're like right in the room cool fuck yeah oh black alley awesome they're happy to murder legions of innocents happy to so this is a weaponizing of our affection for these groups of characters can i yeah we got this really great email from our listener simon uh about sort of the way an interesting defense of not giving us more roddy the ruin this season right let's hear it simon says a song of ice and fire readers and game of thrones watchers are primed to sympathize with the north due to our narrative focus on the starks and the mainstays series and so this northern dude who sounds like the great john is going to be inherently sympathetic however this narrative would we say that the great john is inherently sympathetic however your meat is bloody tough this narrative camera can often obscure the backwardness and cruelty inherent to the north the right of the first night the bleak generational culling of the northern winter and the relative weakness of adult institutions like the maesters or the faith we don't really think about these things because we think about the honorable ned uh in the veil or the dashing rob who is arguably more a tully than a stark so to see roddy the ruin finally given a good amount of screen time in the finale and to find out that his characterization is less the charismatic soldier and more a caricature of bloodlust and a borderline suicidal warrior mentality really works to further problematize the black side of the battle throughout the episode almost all of his dialogue boils down to one of two categories yay i can't wait to die or insert homophobic battle talk here the fact that we are primed to like roddy because he's a hero and he's a because he's northern only to see him be much more unsavory than we're expecting really works for this reason he is not ned he's not even the great john honestly he seemed more like victorian to me than anyone else a loony viking whose sincerest ambition is just to go to valhalla and it doesn't matter how many kids he acts in the face to get there i think it's no accident that he exchanges words with kristin at the pre-butcher's ball parlay in season three episode six roddy says what better way to die than with a blade in hand to another knight who was on a quest of suicidal ism envisioning his own glorious death and battle in tumbledon we get to see roddy live kristin's fantasy and it is ugly to the core i will push back on one thing in the email which is just that i think a lot of the end of game of thrones hinges on a lot of the northern it's not even the end i mean the boltons the umbers the carsarks there's a ton of houses in the north that we actively consider villains so i don't think we have a the north broadly is i like whole lee i i the star the fact that the winter wolves came to us through craig and stark as his gray beards the stark halo and gleam i mean i don't disagree they're holding the winter they're holding the stark sigil like of course there are northern houses that we despise yeah but i think in a sort of broader uh the north remembers sort of sense especially people who do not like go into granular detail with the details of the winter wolves i think it's a it's a it's a and are just sort of like who are the good guys in this world yeah for sure no question i think the larger point stands and to see them wearing clothing you know we joked about how like the fashions haven't changed in like for many years the north are wearing the exact same thing but he's just like wearing yes looks like an old version of john snow yeah i mean i said the same thing before you read the email like i i feel that too and i think it's a very deliberate and effective choice on the the show's part i i think there's a little bit of northern nuance inside of it but it was interesting to think back to like the roddy kristin moment in the email or the point in the email like we were talking about that in the butcher's ball scene is like why is roddy's positioning and framing of can't wait to die something we welcome and embrace and kristin's isn't and we had a great conversation about that and then we're like made complicit for having felt that way because of our relationship to that really cool fucking moment and we've come to die yeah or our expectation of what somebody who's holding a stark dire wolf said i mean like we'll do i don't know actually the finer details of the winter wolves and like if it's a conscription or if it's just sort of like of your of a certain age or whatever you have to go but it seems like the winter wolf mentality is like everyone agrees yes we've come to die with the dragon queen kristin's exactly that point still holds yes um we're gonna go home the stores are limited it's winter let's let the young people like live and eat and feed and we'll go we'll go actually all come to die for the dragon queen kristin's like i made this choice for her everyone yeah because of my own ego and need for glory one more thing i want to say about um damon giving his speech on you know he arrives on caraxis but then he hops over to a to a horse instead yes our listener olivia sent him this photo of just sort of this damon on his horse back with caraxis right over his shoulder and his horse has armor with like spikes in the same place that caraxis spikes are and olivia wrote caraxis cosplay for damon's horse cute and i think that's really fun damon uh you know, the original dragon helm that we saw him in when he was jousting Gawain who either doesn't remember that they've met or thinks Damon more likely doesn't remember that they've met he's always been very dragon forward in the in the armor so I like that he's extending it to his horse there gives a pep talk from that horse the chanting begins the drums are beating Roddy leans the wolves for leads the wolves forward the arrows the line is there but then one hits a man he's like they charge that's how it always happens burning oil be damned they'll plow ahead no matter what the kids are pissing themselves and puking on the battlements Roddy's like axe to the face he tapped me on the calf here it goes and uh Damon is receiving some updates as well he gets an update that Ulf is not with his dragon worrying then he sees Vermithor yeah fly overhead and he's like Hugh is supposed to be at the dragon pit right later we'll see Hugh running into the town screaming for his soon-to-be dead wife Kat and Damon's like what's up with that so he's clocking a lot almost like they should have anticipated that Hugh would not want to stay in King's Landing when the city where they know his wife to be is under attack bit of a bit of a mystery there and uh then the greens move the cluster of children in front of the gate that Damon is marching Caraxes toward and he tells them to move and most of them do but a couple stay and he's like I don't want to do it but I kind of have to definitely killed those kids I think they ran I mean they ran I think they got away so they ran they're definitely dead I mean they ran maybe the flame got him anyway they ran they died regardless before they ran and tried to escape he said Dracarys with two kids standing there and that is fucking yikes stuff from our guy Damon Targaryen Caraxes bursting his head through the charred wood though was awesome it looks great no no it's for Caraxes he's crushing it Orman as the search for Ulf is continuing he's shouting for Ulf through the streets messenger comes to tell him hey uh the war has started Norman's like yeah no shit he's like well it started because Damon rejected the peace terms from Gawain and Darren and Orman's like the what the what now uh what uh-huh and he looks so genuinely astonished and crushed to have been betrayed by Darren and Gawain yeah brutal stuff brutal stuff his hubris right believing that they were really with him loyal to him that Ulf would be loyal to him etc and then it's time for us to find Ulf Joe and we get a really kind of dramatic like a little bit of a slow-mo kind of switch into this scene and then see that Ulf is passed out hammered drunk passed out on in the privy on the shitter hanging dong dick visible I was gonna pick this clip and then I was like you can see his dick so I probably shouldn't uh snoozing after dropping a deuce now we had theorized earlier in the season when this like Orman smell thing was introduced is a dragon gonna take a shit is that gonna be how Ormond because we knew Ormond was gonna die at Tumbleton so we've been theorizing is a dragon deuce gonna be what it's a dragon rider deuce not I mean what's the difference really yeah I have a lot of half tonnage yeah but poetically what's the difference really so Ormond unravels do you want to tell the people that you told me I had to change my slack icon to uh the dragon was it ever did we get a lot of confirmation that that wasn't fact the the Vhagar deuce okay well the mystery remains not everything was answered inside of season three tune back in season four I mean what where is Vhagar is actually still a question so we'll file the trail of shit until we find out um two season long limitations for Ormond Killy's heel times two that smells and a short fuse right he's got it we saw the tantrum didn't like what was in the scroll the slicing of the table with his valerian steel sword and uh an intolerance sweeping the ignorant people that's right it's it's like nine nine different how many heels yeah nine heels and they all got sliced uh he beats off in the street in a way that reminded us of something that we had seen very recently Carlos can we watch this you yourself should not understand set foot in the city again and I'll put out your eyes all you had to do was sit on your fucking dragon they're inside the walls you useless base born useless so making him feel like a tool upon lesser justice Damon had just as obviously Rhaenyra had not in the same physical parallel as Damon but this is how Ormond recruited and courted Ulf right how dare he embarrass you in the street this is how they make you feel how they treat you and then just like cause it smelled bad caught a whiff it smelled bad he forgot he kinda forgot kinda forgot about his messaging unbelievable smell real bad uh you know poetic to be undone by the thing that his foe does that he thinks he knows better than like there's a there's a lot of that in general because he also obviously makes the mistake even net after that of ordering Ulf okay go do the thing that you're supposed to do thinking that he'll just listen to him after he treated him this way Rhaenyra is the one who gave the unknown people in the realm she doesn't know Ulf she doesn't know any of these people she gave them weapons of mass destruction we spent a lot of time after the sewing episode talking about that right to give that kind of power dragon power to people you don't know and whose trust you then don't work to earn and keep is worrying Orman didn't give Ulf a dragon but he commits a version of that sin by thinking do you think there should have been like a verbal test before they did the sewing they just kinda herded everyone on that um whatever that word was we learned about what that thing was that they were on would it be like with like a driver's license you can like skip cause you can only get so many wrong you know you can like skip a couple you skip on the driver's test you technically can if you don't know the answer you can when you get it renewed I don't know if you can do that the first time yeah not your driver's test your license yeah yeah yeah when you have to you know you have to do like read the rule book again yeah of course and you're like it's foggy at night yeah we don't know how to drive it's fine don't worry what direction should your wheels be turned if you're parallel parking on a hill oh god great stuff towards the curb okay I loved what James Norton said on Inside the Episode about this all because one man felt embarrassed the power of shame it's amazing you can't do that you can have all these huge big armies big set pieces and the thing which really dictates the story is something so small and domestic I heard that and I was like I'm gonna really miss James Norton's Ormond but also this guy gets it like this is what we talk about all the time where you need that human heart the consequence of human decisions and it's a great battle and a big spectacle it's really cool and fun and Tumbleton I thought was pretty cool and fun you need character moments like that and this had it well and and also we've talked about sort of the allocation of story resources this season and just sort of like as we bemoan a lack of it for the future for Alan or certain other characters we could say that oh this was carefully plotted and they knew that they knew they were ending with Tumbleton and they knew that Ulf was going to have to betray Team Black you know the book readers knew it you know and so they had to sort of plot that course and they did yes they had time and they had a great performer in Tom Bennett and they just like really made all of that work and so when he's like that's my belly when he's like fuck both of you yep which is a slight book change uh it worked I just want to shout out an actor who's in this episode who um uh when Ulf walks up to Silverwing and he's like sort of the emissary from from Damon and he's like oh you know there you are and then they kill him um that's Darren Evans who I really like who was in who's a series regular in the show Galavant and My Mad Fat Diary and he's just like a really distinctive looking like distinctive sounding guy and when he first showed up as like a few scenes earlier in the episode I was like oh my god he's gonna be on House of Dragons he said goodbye quickly and I didn't make it I was really excited you allowed yourself at Tumbleton to say oh my god this guy's in House of Dragons he would be a great like really fun guy to have on House of the Dragon and and I'm sorry for you I mourn for you thank you I mourn for the legions of dead he just looks such a distinctive voice I was like oh my god and then he was just he was gone dead dead a lot of people are about to be dead because Ulf is heading for for Silverwing and before we get the burning on on on all sides we get a little Roxton Damon hmm moment Kinslayer babe killer heathen now I would say a bit rich for the guy who's helping Ormond populate the battlements with children but rich words from the mouth of a Hightower you love that one it's great it always lands a horse uh blood and cheese you know still hanging over Damon as it should as it should listen uh does it make sense to me that Bull John Roxton was handling Damon Targaryen not necessarily however I think that it is nerd cocaine to see Orphan Maker Orphan Maker and Dark Sister in a fight and then to know because Ormond's also here that vigilance is there which he'll use to battle Roddy cut off an arm three Valyrian steel swords in Tumbleton and two of them facing off here with Damon when have we seen fun fun fun yeah and that's what T in the in the behind the scenes was like you know we knew that if we brought Damon because Damon's not here not at Tumbleton in the book right and so they're like if we bring Damon to Tumbleton that means Dark Sister's coming to Tumbleton if Dark Sister's coming to Tumbleton that means there's Valyrian steel swords on either side when we had Longclaw and Heartsbane both at the Battle of Winterfell they weren't fucking fighting each other they weren't clashing no this is exciting when have we seen valerian steel swords fight before hobbits and dragons and demon.com if we forgot something you think amen is going to give the caspaw dagger and black fire back to agon that would be um yeah we haven't right so okay um go in meanwhile frantically searching for darren finds him in the sept where he is attempting to unchain tessarian we both love this scene joe tell me and please refer to me as my boy as you tell me why you love this um i don't know i just i just thought um you know there are a lot of people who are expecting darren to get involved in the battle of tumulton and we're expecting tessarian to sort of uh yeah get involved in the fighting i would have liked to see tessarian i'm glad that tessarian in some ways because this was like you said like daemon's not here and the chain is not here and the chain is not here and the chain is but i i i was expecting to see tessarian in the field by this point i don't mind saying i think they didn't want to make darren someone who killed a bunch of people sure this is something they seem to be wanting to avoid but like in the book darren has has already done and will you know do some fighting and they might just change that entirely i don't know um i mean for all we know he was trying to get out there for all we know you have to go through me for all we know darren's so nobody nobody no cry nobody going is very ash covered and worried at the end just he's like darren where are you and he kind of pushed him out of the way of the flame nobody that okay you know other than let's not keep up the farce other than stan darren long in the dying i did love in this going darren moment kristin's presence for going still you know i fought beside other brave men who believed that death was the only path to glory do not die for orman's vanity my boy my boy my boy he's more more more of a father darren than orman certainly or fucking viserys and this is the real family here we'll have these two hope they're both thriving and fine things are gonna go well for everyone ultimately we're we're we're uh spared having to find out what would happen in the you'll have to come through me stay back moment because deserian's like something's happening and they run out to look and they see olf and silverwing have entered the fight olf flying overhead to the whoops and cheers from team black below only for him to turn silverwing around and burn that army shouting dracarys great reaction shots you know corliss's horror down below but then of course he immediately turns on team green too because he was not actually loyal to team green he just wanted some stuff orman promised it then he shamed him and took it away so who's he actually loyal to himself he's not team black he's not team green he's team olf we're cutting to the roddy pursuit of orman in that fight the smashing of the shield into the teeth orman severs roddy's arm i know it's sad but he's dead and burnt so it doesn't matter now would have mattered he would have gotten some westerosi veneers i think if he had survived this the uh blood spurting into orman's mouth and him gagging and then the knife up the ass this is a treasure trove in this exchange and then they're both burned to life by olf who's like fuck you burn some great i guess vision how did olf see orman's arm and then he's like oh my god i'm gonna exactly very specific shiny armor the precision of the dragon i guess the fact that silver wing we got several emails about this but the fact that silver wing uh dracarys is both sides of of the fight is very sheep stealer in the battle of the gullet right where this time on purpose from the rider but like very much like a dragon shows up and just torches both sides of of the fight and also we got an interesting email comparing olf to sheep stealer or just sort of like this question of like you know the illusion that we control the the notion that we control dragons is an illusion yes the notion that we control dragon riders is an illusion right at the end of the day like what's the difference in terms of like yeah a dragon and a dragon rider in terms of like that idea of control well that's gonna have to be on their minds after this i'd be worried um i googled this we could get a valerian steel sword duel if in a night of the seven kingdoms flashback yes yeah yes so we could get a valerian steel sword we could for sure yes yeah yeah other than that i think that'll happen i'm just i'm unclear at this point how much how much how many flashbacks we're gonna get but uh other than that i think this is it the fog of dragon war joe i mean but how do you feel i actually haven't seen as much pushback on this as i thought i would about damon about john roxton just like handing damon his ass i mean john is a very capable warrior and he has a valerian steel sword and damon is you know is the diamond targaryen like i think damon should have equated himself a little bit better in this fight just a smidge yeah i do um okay i did get a kick out of matt smith as always and house the dragon's belt being like i wanted it to be a bar brawl yeah and he's like i hate the small council scene that was so funny and then he's like i get i mean i get why we need them i hate them that was hysterical uh it was the field of fire writ small and mr monken wrote we love the field of fire i mean it was a horror show but the decimation and destruction battle i'll tell you that much right now uh no winners as usual in dragon war decimation destruction damon spared from i guess being murdered by john roxton by the cascading uh wood but as we talked about earlier then he has to look out at the the hellscape around them that he has helped to usher in yeah we talked about this any other further thoughts on damon's no but this is so uh corliss shows up right and says ulf has turned the town is lost we are leaving a moment that i really really love right and our listener leanne wrote in to say i found it interesting in this episode that it was corliss who comes to damon after the battle becomes unmanageable and advises they leave and damon does having had his bell properly rung in this season one episode where corliss and damon are fighting the triarchy and reach a point where the battle becomes unmanageable it is also corliss who goes to damon and suggests they bail or accept help from viserys but that time damon doubled down and took on the battle with corliss and damon the army himself is this growth is he just 50 and the knees aren't as actually sound as they once were he's old he doesn't have the constitutional integrity to be covered in fucking grayscale blood at this point you need to be young for that shit man oh god what if we get another like a return to the short hair from damon after this though that would be great i'm sure matt smith would enjoy shorter hours in the wig chair probably you think what does he hate more than the army or the wig chair or the small council scene so funny we get a very brief shot of silverwing flying pursued by caraxis who is shooting flame toasting toasting her bum yeah and then vermi the bronze fury the mount of the old king himself now paired with hugh hammer but he was not he was cradling his dead wife cat very sad so who is alone flying after caraxis and silverwing who do you think killed cat so there's a very quick flash of soldiers from both sides going into cat's house which i to me was kind of like effective to say it doesn't matter everyone is a villain everyone is to blame there are no winners only losers this is a lot of winter wolf bodies around cat which in the day you know do you want to be invoking the bells i would say no but i think the rook's dress comp is a more yeah favorable one but in one of the harrowing things that happens of course in the bells among the many we start to see soldiers from the north like raping pillaging killing and john's like no exactly exactly and we're like no no i don't want it uh charred ruins everywhere but if it was the winter wolves yeah that'd be bad what killed cat um how's hugh hammer gonna feel about that well i think he's just gonna feel very bad about all of this in general but again blame all around so he had one desire this season and it was to well get a house but also get a living get cat out of tumble that's all yeah allison had one job this season and it was to get helena out of king's landing on that front yep it's back at the red keep and alinda's like uh i've got some news alinda's like it's it's bad news it's been a bad day down today jesus christ busy bad day uh our listener megan said i can't believe you lost baylor breaks beer humphrey beesbury jace the face and helena within the last six months big sad jace the face is really something my god uh this the great sept different of course from the sept of baylor but the great sept visible as we pan out quite deliberately certainly uh from makes us think of our guy tommen tough one just spare all around allison's out in the wild as the butterflies rise around her beware them beware the butterflies and also the beautiful metamorphosis of the caterpillar into a butterfly etc i mean absolutely beautiful like in terms of the tapestry like the image the the sort of butterfly-esque uh image of helena falling you know really great but the and the the kind of the silver of her tears the silver of her hair yeah and the gown yeah the scale very like wingy yeah it did and Is that a word, wingy? Wingy. Bewinged? You once said bewinged about someone wearing a wig, so bewinged, why not? The scale, like this comparative size of Helena compared to the Red Keep, but what that kind of signals to us about the magnitude of this moment and this death. Helena doesn't really care for scale in her tapestering. No. So Rhaenyra picks that up, sees that, then goes, just one pain back. I would have looked at it all. I would have rolled it up and taken it with me, and we would have poured over every, and I would have been like, more red meat for Red Deet. Get on the case. That is a Vampire Lestat reference and an excellent one. Incredible. Red Deet, oh my gosh, I missed that. That was so good. So Rhaenyra sees herself on the Iron Throne. Bleeding. Bleeding. Caught and judged by the Throne. I think that seems in play. Fire. Fire and blood all around. Dragons roaring, hands reaching. Hands, cut hands, bloody, like bloody fingers to cut hands. Yes, the flame, the dragon claw, the human hands, the like, kind of like blood magic, blood mage element of maybe the unholy, to go back to the Doom of Valyria, like, what is this power? Yeah, the dragon orgy, never a bad time to think of the tapestries, there's that. Overall, you know, not only the illusion of control, but the tie between this dance and the Doom and the hearkening of a new Doom series. Long warning, rendered in creative, artistic form here. We had a different interpretation of this than Chris Ryan. That was a fun discussion. Are you still in the same spot? Yeah, I think we're right. Me too. Yeah, same. But a lot of the commenters agreed with Chris. I think, I think I really liked the read from Chris. I thought it was really interesting, the idea that, I'm paraphrasing him, to his, check it out on Talk of the Thrones, or on the, anything else of our Instagram, the idea that Rhaenyra is like, I'm seeing what I want to see. That actually tracks to me that Rhaenyra is, She's like, yep, me on the throne. Yes. I think we had a related, but the kind of opposite read, which is, I see something here that should be, I, the person who sought a dreamer to sanction my mission, now see something, I would say clearly, undeniably, deeply worrying and concerning, and am past the point. None of my business. Of allowing myself to care. Let's close the window on this conversation. As Stannis Baratheon once said, We march toward victory, we march toward defeat, but we go forward only forward. So, yeah. My favorite detail on the extended look of the tapestry, by the way, from House of the Dragons built, was in the blood and cheese stretch, the rat holding the knife. Yeah, the rat chef. Great stuff. Dany's on there too, naked with her dragons. And we know that Helaena was in that. She was peeping. Peeping on Daemon's vision. Dream peeping. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Dragonmath update. Let's do it. Team Kryn. Vhagar. Still in the Riverlands-specific location unknown. Not with Aemond. Sunfire. Frankly, thriving. Back with his rider, Aegon, in the Riverlands currently, in Harrenhal. But Aegon's got plans to head elsewhere. And Sunfire is. Oh, Tessarian. Well, I was going to say Sunfire is the object of prophetic wonder. So, that's cool for Sunfire. Tessarian. Chained. Still. In Tumulton and the Sept. Team Black. Caraxes. Roasting some tush. Did great. But with Daemon and Tumulton. Syrax in King's Landing with Rhaenyra. Still, we have to imagine injured. Probably, yeah. But. Angry riders is what you've written in the notes here. Verma Thor with a despondent hue in Tumulton. Yep. Sea Smoke in King's Landing with Adam, a tiny bit injured. Moon Dancer in King's Landing with Bela. Yes. And Teraxes with Joff, still too small to fight. Yes. And Teraxes has never been part of their six count. So, they're down. Teraxes, technically, but they're down to five. I would say they're basically down to two. They're down to five. And three of those five are really pissed right now. Yeah. So, that's a. So, it's really. Not good. Caraxes and Syrax. And now that. And again, this is a book change. But if they can find Vhagar, the idea that Sunfire and Vhagar are together, it's not great. That would be a formidable pairing. Free Agent. Silver Wing. Free Agent is definitely on a. Yeah. Silver Wing is a solo team. This is a team of one. Yeah. Not a free agent. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a free agent. That's. Fully flipped off of Team Black, but not Team Green. Team Wolf. Team Wolf. Team Wolf, the Dragon Lord. Undeclared or unpaired? Team White. Is what. Okay. Sheep Stealer. Separated from Reyna. Healing. But in the story still. Could be Team Black if they had managed that better. Exactly. Dreamfire. Devastatingly now without a rider. Helena is Dreamfire's rider and Helena just died. So, Dreamfire does not have a rider. And Dreamfire is in King's Landing. Yeah. Cannibal and Grey Ghost. Wild Dragons. Still unclaimed. Odinaboot. And then R.I.P. Yeah. Aerax. Melees. Vermax. Sad. Dreamcatcher. Dreamcatcher. Okay. Spoilers. Yeah. If you don't want to hear anything about book events that we think might be relevant in Season 4, thank you for listening this season. We've cherished our time with you and we'll see you for A Night of the Seven Kingdoms Season 2 and hopefully many things between now and then. If you want the book, spoilers. Spoilers. Spoilers. Spoilers. Spoilers and spoilers. Stay tuned. All right. What do we got? Where are the little blonde babies? Many emails. Many emailers are asking, where are the little blonde babies? Many emails are asking, where are the little blonde babies? Do you think they're going to come back in the final season? I'm, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, I guess it's, I don't know. It would be weird to be like, Viserys got snatched and still try to make room for that. But Aegon has to be back. Okay. Really, Viserys should not be back. Aegon the Conqueror, babe. Exactly. Third of his name. They also have to kill Stormcloud, who is in the show and we have met. He was so tiny. But we saw baby little Stormcloud with Aegon last season. I think that we need to see Aegon crowned at the end of the show so he has to come back. Viserys, I guess they'll just mention, got kidnapped or something. I don't know. I don't know, honestly. But Aegon has to come back and then say, my dragon died and my brother got kidnapped, I guess. He's like two. I mean, he really needs to be there to watch what happens on Dragonstone. He really does. For the history of Westeros. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe not for the show, but for the history of Westeros. Speaking of Dragonstone, we've been talking about this all season, but now given what we witnessed with Aegon and Aemond. In this episode, where are you on the question of whether Aegon and Sunfyre are lying in wait for Rhaenyra on Dragonstone is going to be a kind of, like if the show is going to make that a twist and a surprise in any fashion. You know who I want to pull this off? Laerys. Because you were like, Laerys going back to King's Landing. And that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But my guy, he of the weaving deceptions, I would love for him to somehow orchestrate that. That'd be fun. I miss those two together. I listen to King. Cameron, in the Aegon-Aemond scene, Aegon, when he's threatening Aemond, should have Sunfyre burn Aemond alive. Just think about Rhaenyra. Oh yeah, for sure. And then Megan said in an interview with Fia Saban, she pointed out that the dragon fire around Rhaenyra that I took as foretells her eventual end on Dragonstone by Sunfyre and Aegon. I didn't notice the fire the first time in the watch, but would make sense. So maybe part of that. That sort of vision of Rhaenyra on the throne is her ultimate end as well. Like, I mean, it's not a golden dragon, but there's dragon face, there's fire, there's the hand, you know, like, is that depicting her death behind the throne sort of thing? Could be. A lot of tragedy ahead. What else? Aemond's choice. So he has to be at Harrenhal for God's Eye with Daemon, but when Daemon shows up in the book. He's got to wait 13 days for Aemond to come. There's certain, there is, I think it's entirely possible that Aemond's just like, I'm staying with Alice here. And I think it's possible that he goes with Aegon and then has to come back maybe because they have set up the fray as retaking Harrenhal. So if Alice, if he hears that Alice is in peril, would he go back to be with her? I would, I would like it, uh, fine. I would not like Alice to be taken by the fucking fray. Canonically, Sabbath of the Fray should be hiding in the prison. She should not be cowering in terror. So she should not get the jump on Alice even for a second, but more like if Aemond thinks that she's in any danger. Um, Ulf. Okay. I have a question about this. So they kind of did the second Tumbleton thing with Ulf. It did like one point, Tumbleton 1.5. Yeah. So, and there are, I mean, I guess like this could be on the Darren front to question too in terms of just, where's Darren? Like, where's Darren? What happened exactly in some mystery there? as a possibility. But, like, Ulf sleeps through. It's just wasted and sleeps through second Tumulton. Are they going to do that again? Or do they do it here instead and they'll do something else in second Tumulton? Well, the question. So, some people are like. Are we not getting second Tumulton? Is Tumulton just Ash at this point? But I think you need Hugh and Ulf. Yes. And the Caltrops. And the Caltrops, everything. So, I think there has to be enough Tumulton left standing that they still are, like, posted up there. Storming of the Pit, there aren't as many dragons to do the exact, like, carnage scale of the Fire and Blood text. So, obviously, that would be a seminal moment. And when you pair, like, Cyrax and everything, even though that's not under the dome, but the proximity, the sheer volume of dragon death at second Tumulton is one of the most significant moments in the dance. It just has to happen. It has to. So, I was a little bit like, oh, interesting to have that Ulf thing happen here. But. Maybe he'll just be up to some other shit. Or this is just the thing he does. Sleeps through battle because he's drunk. On the Hugh front. Yes. So, we've been, like. We were trying to figure out how they would get to, like, Hugh turning, and the answer was they didn't. So, fine. But do you think that, like, if Vermathor, who, as we talked about on Talk of Thrones, is, like, paired with Silverwing. Yes. If Vermathor attacks Cyraxes for attacking Silverwing, even if Hugh is not on Vermathor. Yeah. Will it. Will it matter? And will just Hugh be accused of being a traitor anyway because Vermathor is there and somehow involved in, you know, the fight? I think that all of those. There will be the suspicion cast on all the seeds because of what Ulf has done. So, Hugh will fall under suspicion. Even Adam will fall under suspicion. For sure. Just looking beautiful at home. As always. But I think that it would. To me, it feels more interesting if it's a more active choice from Hugh, and he's just, like, my wife is dead, and I blame everyone for that. So, like, I'm curious if there's any moment of alliance between Ulf and Hugh or if they're both just on their own side. Mm. Now, I don't think Hugh in the show has been set up to do the, like, you know, okay, there's the Robert Baratheon hammer prophecy that Hugh thinks is about him and, like, you know, declaring himself king I don't know that. We'd have to get to a place really quickly where that felt totally credible for this character. Yeah. But I do think that he's at the point now to reject serving Team Black. So I don't. I don't. I think if he went back and they were like, you're not trusted, I would actually find that a little bit strange. Like, he should not. He should just take his dragon and his ball and go home. Do what he wants. Go where? Right here. Stay. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think he's staying at Tumulton, but I. I feel. Well, we'll see. Yeah. Because I'm. I feel like the reason is because they're going to be like, you didn't stay at the dragon pit where you're supposed to. For sure. It's a treason even though he did not actually get on his dragon and do what Ulf did. For sure. Him leaving his post at King's Landing and being there. It's called the treasons, plural at Tumulton. Yes. But my question is, like, why does he care if they're like, you left your post? Like, why would he want to work for them at this point anymore at all? That's a great point. So, I don't know. We'll see. Adam. This is the first time. We've kind of been joking all season of, like, have we been pressing our thumb too heavily on the scale with Adam? Sweet Adam never did a wrong thing. Our beloved Adam. This was the first episode where I was like, oh, maybe they're doing something different with Adam and he's not actually going to remain loyal to Rhaenyra. Is that possible? I don't know about, like, loyal-loyal, but I do think he will show up when he needs to show up. Yeah. You know? And that would actually be, I think that would be ideal. Yeah. Is for him to. Like, what if he goes to the Isle of Faces because he's, like, conflicted? Yes. Yes, exactly. And I would really. I think we need that as somebody to stay. to commit to their allegiance but ask questions and push back, right? If everyone's just like, fuck off, peace out, that's not quite as interesting. Darren. Is he dead? So something you wrote here and this is something we had discussed before where we were like, unless the Zelda filming schedule means they're fast-forwarding to second Tumbleton's mysterious fate, they cannot do this, says Mallory Rubin. Is Darren dead? Or. We don't think so. We think that, like, Gwaine and Darren and Ulf and Hugh and bold John Roxton, that's going to be a very interesting. They really set that up to be a very interesting story in Tumbleton in season two. But there is a question of, like, did Darren just leave? Yeah. Just mysteriously disappear after the second Tumbleton? Right. Or did he die? All this fight or flee talk this season now, I think it's just like, it does at least introduce the possibility. We've been talking all season, though, about the fact that, like, Orman doesn't have any sons. And inside of this episode, Corliss is like, what if we marry Reina to Darren? Yeah. In the book, Reina marries one of Orman's sons and that is the political marriage. Like, is there any way in which they keep Darren alive? I know. No. No. We're just in fan fiction at this point, man. He either has to be killed or he has to. Mysteriously disappear. He has to disappear. He has to decide, like, I don't want to be a part of this at all and I'm going to go live anonymously, which they have done with characters in the show who we thought were dead. Laenor did that, right? So, I think it's always a little trickier with dragon riders, but there's tough stuff ahead for our beloved Blue Queen. Well, yeah, I'm just saying, if Tessarion is dead, is there any way the show. Yeah. Not the book, the show could keep Darren alive and have Darren and Reina marry? Because Garmin Hightower is not on the show. I don't think so. Because then it's like, they're. Because then. One of Viserys' kids is alive in the whole. There would be no alignment around Aegon III, then. Too many people would still be like, Darren should be king. It's just that I think that's like a fork. That's like a TVA alternate branch timeline that I think is. doesn't align. I would love for Darren to live. I'd be thrilled, but I don't see it. I don't think the. Given all of the changes we've seen on this show, I don't think it's off the table. I think Darren being confirmed alive and, like, I'm sailing off to Essos for cinnamon and oranges is completely possible, and I think that would be interesting for him to declare so consistently, I don't want people to fight for me and die for me. I want to be out there, but then actually pick in the fight or flee. Flee, that would be an interesting character journey. Him staying in the. Like, in the court of King's Landing, I think would be difficult to pull off. If he's just, like, back in Oldtown with Rhaena, and it's just sort of like Corlys' plan comes to pass, and they make this political marriage that Corlys proposes here, and this is part of the piece, and his dragon is dead, and he's got red hair, and he's like, I don't even look like a Targaryen, I don't have a dragon anymore, I don't want it, I just want to go back to Oldtown. Maybe. And then, because Sheepstealer has somehow died and Mourning is born to Rhaena per the email we got a couple weeks ago, it's like, maybe. Could happen. Massaria, speaking of things that could happen, do you think that this is 100% locked that Massaria is going to be the Shepard in season four, or are they, like, test ballooning it? They're certainly test ballooning it at a minimum. Do you think there's a chance that they're like, people don't seem hyped about this, we'll walk it back, or no? Maybe, and it's possible that there is, like, a guy with one arm, you know, blah, blah, but it's really Massaria and Sylvie. The Sylvie question, a common theory has been that Sylvie is actually Sylvanas Sand and will sort of, like, be involved in that regard. So, like, that Sylvie will be involved, that Massaria will be involved, that Elinda, her girl on the inside will somehow be involved in this mass conspiracy to, you know, take down the dragons and take down Rhaenyra. But I think there's, given how unpopular Massaria was and they're like, fuck you, we're going to double down, you know, because we were like, are they going to run Massaria off the show because people don't really like her? And they're like, nope, she's even more in the show than ever before. I really think they're going to be like, she's integral to the final season. I think so, too. It definitely seems like they're setting her up to be the Shepard. Here's a question, here's a question for you. If Egg on the Third, Egg on the Dragonbane does not come back into the show and Elinda is really team Massaria and is not there to gouge out her own eyes, who is watching Rhaenyra die? Alyson. But she'd be cheering for it at that point. Would she? I think she's going to feel conflicted until the end. After Helena? Yeah. I think there's no path back for them now. No, I don't think there's a path back, but it's not going to be like a clean break. Here's a question on the Alyson front. We can hit the Shepard emails in a second. But like, are you worried at all? I think consistently the show has avoided this concern. We've had moments, we've gotten emails from people over the seasons. Alyson like doesn't have that much story. What are they going to do? This is basically like the third lead of the show, right? One of the three main leads of the show. I did have a moment when I was like, Alyson was in the finale of season three for two seconds. Should we be concerned about that in terms of just like how to keep incorporating Alyson into the story when there's not that much? Is that a concern at all? Or no? Do you think they'll continue to find like versions of Alyson went to Dragonstone, Rhaenyra went to the Sept, et cetera, to give us the meaningful moments between these characters? I think the latter. Just because I know how much that is the juice of the show. How many versions of those two talking in a room about whether there's a path forward can we do? I don't know how many versions of, hey Rhaenyra, the crown will corrupt you did we get this season. Loved them all. Okay. Loved them all. Anything else on Miss Aria's The Shepard? Our listeners Michael came through with some just a round up right sleeper picks could still include laris always plotting yes sylvia up with the people or while oh no you did not just blab egg on prophecy in a public speech guayne a live way past his book character and alan my bad on the high sept and killing the two main contenders are masaria and alicent um masaria's chances went way up when she stepped off the retirement wagon to pento she's got unfinished business with raniera though i think alicent should still be the favorite keeping elaine alive was her sole motivation and perhaps she'll lose a hand on the perilous journey back to king's landing she's also much more light of the seven coded than masaria beyond that olivia cook is one of the stars of the show and her character has almost nothing to do in season four according to the histories you would hate this because you really want the shepherd to be an actual commoner and masaria would count in a way that alicent would not yeah i think the connection to like any sort of religious doctrine is a little bit of a harder sell with masaria but i think masaria has been positioned effectively as a character who knows what to use in order to do the thing and if she thinks that especially after the high septum was just killed the way to align her flock is to lean into the religious rhetoric that she would do that whether it was with a puppet shepherd or or herself i agree um i do think it's it feels really this the the show has committed to focusing on the small folk and whether the targaryens or the high towers are fit to try to claim to rule and protect the small folk when they don't give a shit about the small folk and they don't give a shit about the small folk when they don't give a shit about the small folk and don't understand them so i think the shepherd being having that history you know dating back to massaria's very initial like that season one episode to fight with damon about you know her history that that part of it would work so i'm very open to massaria as shepherd actually like i it doesn't it's a huge change but i i think it could it could work allison would be a much as soon as we saw her in the crowd i felt like it was a lock i was just like oh she gets off the she all right uh last but not least the prophecy um a listener colin wrote in with theory which is just sort of like as we discuss how does raygar find the prophecy could it be instead of like oh i found the dagger i found this or whatever he found the scroll it said dear diary today queen raniera said something cuckoo bananas on this and the on the stairs of the sept yeah and this is me or a while writing it down and doesn't this sound absolutely none of a fuck or a while i think your theory for last week that it's tauren manderly's diary is a lock now given his reaction that's gotta be it anyway um that has been house of the dragon season four coming in 2028 is that right jeez that sounds like a really long time will we be here on earth i don't know will any of us be thank you thank you to our squad heart queen's guard for a wonderful season of house of the king of cornette arjuna ramga powell joe mia denner on squad squad squad thank you to the bad babies as always amazing thank you to you joanna robinson love to go to westeros together thank you to you mallory rubin so excited to go back for nine of the seven kingdoms same can't wait and also before that to the uk with you to see the mad king play we'll be there okay sure we'll see you soon bye you