'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 7 Deep Dive

[MUSIC] Greetings. And welcome to House of War, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, her designs for our future did not include my mother. No. I'd actually love to include your mother in my designs for our future. If we're at Harren Hall, yeah, we might need to make some adjustments. There. It's Joanna Robinson. It's me. It's you. My favorite witch of Harren Hall or anywhere? I'm your favorite witch. And your witchy workshop? Of course you are. Who else would even be in contention? Wow, there's so many witches. Not to me. Number one witch. Yeah. It's you number one. Agatha number two. I'll get back to you on the rest. Great. We are here not only to talk about witchy stuff as always, but to dive deep into the penultimate episode. Somehow already the penultimate episode of House of the Dragon Season 3, Crazy. Where's the season gone? Where's the year gone? Where are our lives going? It's something to think about. We're going to get to all of that, including our existential dread. Right after this. [LAUGHTER] [MUSIC PLAYING] Programming reminders. Busy times. Later this week. Yeah. The Odyssey Mailbag. And the complete definitive, etched in stone. In dinner and in the evening. Christopher, Nolan, movie, rankings. We've already recorded that part, so we know for sure it's coming. Yep. We did already do it, and we have surprises. Oh, yeah. On both of our lists, I would say. Maybe one of them more than the other. But there are surprises in this. Oh, yeah. No question. That doesn't mean we're not doing an Oppenheimer podcast. It just means we didn't want to wait for the Oppenheimer podcast. Exactly. It'll happen at some point. When? Who the fuck knows? We'll find out together. Guess what? That's not it. We're also going to continue our House of the Dragon Covers. Wouldn't it be weird if we stopped? This is the last one. We're never talking about thrones again. A decade of cramming information in our heads. All for not. It's over. Yeah. What are we pivoting to? Oh, great question sports. It's sports time for me. Sports Joe. We will, of course. I heard there was an Orioles trade that we should be concerned about. There was-- there were a number of Orioles trades. A number. Talk to thrones. Live. Legit live. We are going to be here streaming live technology permitting. That's Sunday night energy. WISCR. Right after the episode, we've heard it's a little longer than an hour. So whenever the episode ends, that's when live stream will start, essentially. I'd give her take a few minutes. Well, we leave a few minutes for the inside of the episode. I don't know. We actually haven't decided. Booted up in case we don't. Be there. Yeah, we have decided to be here live on Sunday. I love live Sunday night energy. Really weird stuff happens. And then also, we will be looking at your comments. Right. And hopefully, being able to answer questions-- That's right. We can get our sort of-- Someone will be reading them. Our jets and scrambled and our wits assembled. We will answer some live questions on the pod. Yeah, hit up the chat. That's going to be fun. You can watch live on the Ring of Us YouTube channel. Of course, then the pod will be where you always find it if you're not watching live. So look for that as well. And then, of course, we will have the deep dive on the finale next week, probably Tuesday evening. But we'll have it for you when it's ready to be delivered to you. And we're hoping to have a couple other finale treats next week, at least one. We'll see. We'll see. We'll be covering the finale in full. That's a promise for us to you. Until it's recorded. No specific promises. Just the promise of coverage and passion and presence. Our hearts and our minds and our takes, our bodies, to the extent that I have anything left off around that front. You broke in your body and service for content. We all know that to be true. I did get a couple texts from my dad this week. It's like, I've been checking in on the pod. Seems like you're starting a lot of them by saying that you're broken and don't feel well. Everything OK? It's like, I'm doing great. Is that why we made progress on the doctor front? It wasn't me. It was your dad. No, actually, it was. It was you. It was mostly you. Joanna, yeah. After that, we'll be in lantern season. Oh my god. We're going to have some fun. Oral stuff. There are things as well. How can everybody follow along? Well, what if they just subscribe to the pod on their pod capture of choice? What if they followed us on social and house of our pod? And what if they emailed us? Great. Hobbits and [email protected]. They could also watch us on YouTube on Spotify. That's right. Full video episodes. Incredible. Wow. Incredible stuff. What a time to be alive. Couple spoiler warning, right? Spoiler warning. Same as always. You know the drill by now. All the thrones ever. Yeah. I mean, maybe this is your first episode, and you don't know the drill. If it happened in this episode or anything in Game of Thrones ever, it could come up on the table. Anything in the future of fire and blood will be in a separate spoiler section at the end of the pod. We'll warn you before that starts. Book context throughout as we go, but only at the very end in a separate section with scary warning from Carlos. With a claxon sound. That's right. Let me know what's coming. Only then. We'll talk about the future. All right. Two quick emails. Hit us. Sky was non-non like this episode specific emails. Guys, I want to know how do you feel about the, is it Adley Rushman? It's Adley Rushman. Rushman. Rushman. How do you feel about the trade to Boston? Not great. You know, here's the truth. Adley is a Baltimore Oriole. He was until yesterday was a Baltimore Oriole franchise catcher, franchise cornerstone, number one pick overall. One one. Number one pick in the draft. I have heard his name from you. You have? Yes. You have. You see him play in person. Didn't remember how to pronounce it, but I have heard it. Here's the truth. We don't have time to get into all of my thoughts and feelings on this today. I will say, I am in a surprisingly measured place. I was thinking back to my reaction when the Orioles traded Manny Machado, which you can read about on the wringer.com and see videos of where I had what can only be described as a historic apocalyptic meltdown about the Orioles trading one of the best players of the generation. And all of those feelings, I still honestly hold to this day. Like Ormond hacking a table to bits with the Valerian Steel Sword. This was at sunset gower in the old office days pre-COVID and I put on my Oriole batting helmet and sat on my couch and like was holding, gripping a Manny Machado like plushie that I had and Chris came in and took pictures. And then our former colleague Pat filmed me talking about it and it was just so pathetic and sad. And then I was like, I'm going to blog and I blogged. That's how you know it was a while ago. You blogged through it. I blogged. I won't be doing that this time. Maybe I'll post some longer thoughts on Instagram. It's an incredibly sad and intense thing for all Oriole fans because Adley is the cornerstone of the rebuild. I've always said that. It's an of two minds thing and the two wolves where it's like the return that they got for him is, as far as I can tell, from an astonishing amount of meanlining draft and prospect, scouting reports last night, epic. And if you're not going to be able to extend a player, getting the return that they got from the Red Sox is a better place than they've been before with deals of this caliber. However, what Adley represented to Oriole fans in terms of this new era, this symbol of hope. It's just really sad to trade him into the division to the Red Sox is, that is like the second they signed, but remember when I said I wasn't going to talk for a while, the second they signed Bessio, my guy Sammy Baseball, to an extension, that was like Adley's. They know they're not keeping Adley. So I have been preparing for this for a long time in a way that was, you read the tea leaves. Helpful for my reaction, but it's just, it's, boy, okay, tough one. Who do you think is in a better mental health space right now? Yeah. You or George R. Martin. George blogged recently. Me. George. Yeah. He's been having a tough time. So we just wanted to say, we read George's post, we support him always. We heard recently that he might be working on some Dunkin' Egg stories, and that's exactly what we want him to do. I feel like it will be like a nice booster, but also if he just wants to rest and relax, the man is in his late 70s. Do you think George just lived his life? You have given us so many gifts, so much. And we are grateful, and we believe in you, and this made me sad. I feel very sad for George, and I genuinely can't imagine. We've been talking about this for years and years and years, but this level of pressure and expectation and every single time there's any conversation, somebody asking you, where is this thing that we're waiting for? It's just must be the, it just, it just must be so hard. I hope he's okay. I really do. I think he's going to World of Con, which is happening. George likes WorldCon. He's here quite soon. Never been. They're doing a thrones meetup. Let's look into it. Okay. That's it. That's all I had to say. Thanks for everything, Adley. You were a great Oriole. I'll miss you. Thanks, George, for all the content. Gunner, you're still there. Let's sign a long-term extension. Henderson. World Series next year. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Sports show. [laughs] Oh my God. How many snapshots? Let's do it. [MUSIC PLAYING] How those sword sounds. OK. Season three, episode seven. Sheesh, the dragon and winter. 64 minutes. Most of these episodes this season, I think I'll do an episode three. I've been just a few minutes north of 60. Once again, this episode, like episode five, directed by Nina Lopez Carrado. And also, like episode five, Phillipa Gosslett is one of the writers on this episode. But Zenzela Price is also a writer on this episode first in the season. That's the crew. Joanna, if anyone did not watch, talk the throne. So honestly, even though it was probably a parent, how we felt about the episode, but we didn't do our usual-- What was your favorite thing? What do we think at the beginning? So hot off the presses, breaking news. Reveal right now your take. What did I think of the episode? What did you think of the dragon and winter, the pen ultimate episode of season three of House of the Dragon? I think what we think come to find with House of the Dragon is that unlike our expectations, especially-- You did that a little bit in the come-to-die for the dragon queen voice. Come-to-die. You did a little bit. We've come-to-find. We've come-to-find. Again, just kind of it emerged. We'll have a bit of Roddy the rear right inside of us. What was home defined about the eight episode seasons of House of the Dragon? And actually even the finale of last season. It's like, this is very much-- we're putting pieces in place, sort of episode. And I'm not mad about it. Spectacular dragon action, like undeniable spectacular, not just like, you know, the aerial battles that we've gotten before, or like, it's the dead of night. We're like talking bright, sunlit of day in a field on the ground dragon action. And it looked amazing. Our pal, Paul Fairfield on the sound design. Incredible, from the four different dragons. So, you know, we got to see Dream Fire, Sunfire. No longer long in the dying, now long in the living. So-- Use his proper name. Sweet Sunfire. War criminal Sunfire. So it was not your turn. [LAUGHTER] Paul Vee. [GIGGLING] Oh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. So I liked it, didn't like-- it was not my favorite of the season, but I quite liked the episode. I thought this was really quite an effective penultimate episode and finale setup. And it felt to me like while we were doing a lot of the moving, the pieces on the board to position us for a finale, I thought it did that in a confident way that felt more akin to episodes in the middle of the season before the kind of dip of episode six. And certain sequences and character settings in this episode, like after the frustration of six, it felt like we had forward momentum. In a way that felt really important. So I had quite a good time watching this episode. I thought there were some really memorable and indelible house of the dragon sequences, the four dragon ground fight, which I can't wait to talk about, all of Helena's dreams, Egon and sweet sunfire, incredible stuff. Ulf and Ormond, I mean, a moment that we've been building toward, methodically, but quite expertly, all season. And then the pairing inside of this episode of like really quiet, intimate character moments of conversations say, like the one between Reneira and Missouri as pelvis. That one? Yeah. I mean, Vag cam. We were like really at the pubic level on that one. I'm about to use a word I don't usually use, but I'm about to use a word just FYI to people. Are you going to say Kunt or Pussy? It's the C word. And I'm just quoting a tweet I saw. Where's the shot of Reneira, just like right neck to next to Missouri as Nethers, right? And he just says, like, hey, Kunt GPT, am I a good ruler? Wow. Oh, my God. Incredible. I asked once again, should I return to Twitter? I mean, I just want to miss it. I think I'm just getting-- I'll just feed the creme de la creme to you. No, come on. Anyway. You were saying some nice intimate moment. She seems hysterical. I mean, send that to Chris. Can't wait for his digs. That's amazing. I don't like boy. Now, you only send those to me? Yes. They're private. They're just for us and all of our bad baby listeners. Chris blushes like a daffodil when you use that kind of language around. If anyone checked the tape, Chris has said Kunt on Talk to Throne's more than either of us. So he's always only quoting the canon. Yeah. Just as you are. I can't make that claim by the canon. I mean, a tweet I read. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, isn't Twitter canon? Sadly, lamentably, for our time. I was going to mention, you know, Damon and Ranera. With a Linda there, it was her face. So a Linda is a third boy. And then just this was the Heron Hall stuff in this episode was real like house of the dragon freaky shit in a way that I loved Mommy Bull. Has the merch emerged for Mommy Bull? I haven't seen anything. Tough. Unbelievable. What are we doing? Bard Corner? OK. Check Tonal Shift. I don't know. Not really, actually. You know what Shakespeare loves a seward joke. OK, listen, back to saying seward. Coward. Even. Well, we're all the synonyms we came up with last night for a fiddle. All right. So set up says called Dragon and Winter. And because I love life, I decided to rewatch Lion and Winter. This is obviously a reference to Lion and Winter, which is a play that was made into a fantastic film. And also into a TV movie in the 2000s. But the film with Catherine Hepburn, Peter O'Toole, a very young and handsome Timothy Dalton and Anthony Hopkins, among other people, is about a royal family who come together and squalble over succession. A royal family divided over who should take throne. Should it be King Richard the Lionheart? You might have heard of him. Should it be King John? You might have heard of them. Like a Robin Hood fame. These are the guys. These are the sons in question. And also, this generation is just, I think, one generation removed from the Anarchy, which was another civil war over the throne, which was the actual real life historical inspiration for George R. Martin to write, dance the dragons, that's based on the Anarchy. But it's so funny, because one of our listeners wrote in with a line from this movie, and I had already written it down, because I'd never thought of it as like a Throne's connection. But there's this line in the line, the winter where Richard, again, Richard the Lionheart, you might have heard of him, says he's here, he'll get, and play by Anthony Hopkins. He's here, he'll get no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me beg, and then Jeffrey, his brother, that no one's heard of, because he died. My, my, you should all rick full, as if the way one fell down mattered. And Richard says, when the fall is all there is, it matters. So I was like, the climb is all, the fall, you know, the fall is all, the climb is all. I was like, surely in his bow. So I did reach out to our pal Brian Kogman, who wrote on Game of Thrones, a producer on Game of Thrones. And I was like, Hey man, how much was the line in the winter, like top of mind for you all when you were writing that? And he was like, for me, it was a huge inspiration. He's like, the guys wrote that, he's like, I didn't write that episode. So like, I don't know if that was like, I think the three options he gave was like, a conscious steel, an unconscious steel, or nothing whatsoever to do with it. Like, these are common things that like, the line in winter is a beloved classic film with beautiful writing that I'm sure Dan and Dave have seen, et cetera, et cetera. So it might just like be in their mind or whatever. But anyway, I just thought that was like a fun, bronzy connection to mention. - Incredible stuff. Do you think more people would be familiar with Joffrey if, Jeffrey, yeah, Joffrey, if they call him Joffrey? If, you know, Laris had said, my duty now is to ensure that all of your acts. - I can't wait to talk about your guy, Laris. - Laris not. - What a shameful episode for your guy, Laris not a source in house of the dragon. He just want to die for the rapist king, Yagon, and that's okay. All right, what about sweet sunflower? He wasn't around for that. I'm gonna change to stew and maybe. - This is also for me, here in Bard Corner. - Yeah. - It's from Henry IV part one. - It is incredible that you wrote in the outline of me and then also me for an exotipo. - Of course it's me. Henry IV part one, Hotspur, one of the best names for a character, a person, never. - How are you gonna adopt Tottenham Hotspur as your Premier League team? - No, but I'll just go by Hotspur. - Okay, great. - Yeah. Great. - Oh, so Hotspur's dying. - Yes. - Frenzal has killed him. - The two of them are dying, one of them's dying and the other one's still alive 'cause he becomes King Henry's spoiler. Okay. - Yeah. - Oh, I could prophecy, but that the earthly and cold hand of death lies on my tongue. No Percy. So this is Hotspur dying, talking to himself from the third person, legendary. No Percy, thou art dust and food for, and then he goes, and then he dies and food for, and then Prince Henry says, for worms brave Percy, fairly well great heart. Il Weaved Ambition, how much art thou shrunk when that this body did contain a spirit, a kingdom for it was too small abound. But now. about two paces of the virus earth is room enough. So I was thinking about this when multiple characters talk about returning to the dust inside of this episode. So I always think about that, like, food for worms. - Yes. - And like, no Percy thou art dust. I always think about it, and food for it, and he dies. And then the person who kills him, who like has this respect for him, is like, food for worms. And also, you used to want a massive kingdom, and now you're just a patch of ground. That's all you are. - All right, I'm just gonna zoom through the rest of barred corner 'cause I've taken up too much time. Okay, Aiden from which of the third, also lies on my tongue. You weren't gonna make a connection to Reneira and Missaria. Nope, okay. But here's about, this is about Reneira and Missaria. From Aiden, which of the third, poor painted queen, why Struist thou sugar on that bottled spider, who's deadly web and snare the about fool, fool, thou what is a knife to kill thyself? - Shish. - Shish threw her sugar for a spider, indeed. Reneira and Missaria. Okay, I think Struist sugar is like a really nice euphemism for sexual Congress. Okay, John said, he was thinking about Claudius when Hamlet's like, things seem really wild and crazy here. I'm gonna go back to Vitt and Bergen's study philosophy. And Claudius is like, no, I'd rather have you here, quote, in the cheer and comfort of our eye. He's like, I want my eye on you. And he was like, that's very Reneira and Helena. Why don't you sit here and do your needle point and I will just come and interrogate you about your dream sounds like a great plan. Okay. And then William wrote into site Macbeth, which is, I think, been about the highest, the most cited of the plays in this. Macbeth talking about the weird sisters, the three witches in Macbeth, who can sort of give him these cryptic prophecies, right? Yes. He says, I will tomorrow and but times I will, to the weird sisters. More shall they speak. And for now, I'm meant to know by the worst means the worst. So to find out from the weird sisters, what's going on? And this is very Reneira interrogating Helena. And as William, our listener pointed out, when Macbeth reaches the witches, he keeps imploring, answer me, answer me, tell me. And when the answers aren't clear enough, he insists, but one more and more, my heart throbs to know one thing, tell me, I will be satisfied, deny me this. And an eternal curse fallen, you let me know. So, Reneira being compared to Claudius and Macbeth, I would say feels right. Not great. Not great for our girl, Jeneira. Worrying. And that's it for Bard and Classic's corner. Wonderful stuff. Delightful. I love our listeners. Shout out to the bad babies. Shout out to the Bard. You think you'd ever want to come on the pod? I was about to say, do you think, do you think Jake's room would listen to our podcast? No. He would be a ranger listener, but it wouldn't be our podcast. More of a CR head. He would bring her face to football. Oh. He was a populist. He was like a man of the pupil. He would definitely have had some takes on high fits, talking about beach ham recently, the fridge ham. I pull some and take it to the beach. I saw the Instagram. Hard to miss. I didn't see it. We do a part of work here, you know? And we get to do it together. I think Jason would love to know more about beef ham. Should we talk about this episode of television? Let's do it. Let's head to the battles of a pleasure, Dan. For The Deep Dive. (dramatic music) - Christ. - Beach ham. Beach ham. - Beach ham. - Beach ham. We're not lingering on the opening credits, but just a note, but your ball is there. And Kristen's face looked a little bit better here than in the prosthetic form later. - You're eating into the seven point star sort of formation. - Pretty cool. - Pretty cool. - Kind of looked, you know, 'cause the way it's featured, it shows us the dead around him before it shows us him. - Yes. - The like, the split ball was cool. - Around him. Did this feel more like the kind of glorious death that he was asking for and shrine in beautiful tapestry? - Frankly, he shouldn't have made the tapestry. No songs. - I know, that's what I'm saying. - No songs. - Not just like a tapestry, but like a symbolic sort of, like, spread of the seven point star around him. - Let's kick him out of your head. - You need more and laterally back there. (laughing) - The real contributors. - Where's Tyler on the tapestry? It's my question, man. I mean, let's get him in there in the sweaty undershirt. - I mean, I guess who the person we should be taking our complaints to is Helena, because there is this, you know, enduring strong theory that Helena is the weaver of the tapestry that needle point to herself. - I feel like Helena is going through enough and I'll withhold my complaints rather than sending them to her. - Okay. - Leave George alone, leave Helena alone. - She's gotta work through it with Reneer right now. And let's get to it. Let's start there. We're gonna cluster our deep dive today by character set. - Character set. - And we're gonna start with a lot of the Reneer centric or Reneer adjacent to plot lines. And then we will spend a pretty enjoyable backup of the deep dive on Team Green, who really delivered this week. Boy, what a time to be a fan of Team Green. As you declared yourself publicly on Talk of Thrones. - I picked specific greenies. - They are incredibly entertaining to watch. There's no question. - It's not a green blanket. It's specific greenos. And it's Darren and Gwayne. - I also love Darren and Gwayne. - Did you see the way that Gwayne dismounted from his horse? - What was striking about it? I don't know if anything stood out to me. - You need to be on Twitter. - He did a high kick. - Okay. - You know, instead of just sort of like the back leg around. - Yeah. - He did a high kick over his horse's head. - Yeah. - And there were memes. - But not on Instagram? - I mean, just like a real sort of canned canned answer move. A real like I've been doing hot yoga, goat yoga, all the yoga I can bend my leg this way. And he said, "Gentlemen of Tumbleton take note." This is what I could do. - Incredible stuff. Great energy today. Okay. And I love it. Really, truly. Helena the Dreamer. We're gonna talk in a second about what Helena says to her nearer the warning she issues and also the behavior that we see from her nearer. Well, let's start just with the dreams, the idea of dragon dreams and the double dreams that we get because this was such an exciting thing for House of the Dragon viewers and for Throne's fans. We're gonna hit them both back to back here even though they were spaced across the episode. Dream number one, Joe. Red keep courtyard, empty. No other people. Renera's banners visible. And Helena is stroking. She will describe this as a gray mare. - Looks pretty. - You could say pale horse. - Looks pretty white. - You could say pale horse, I think. - Pale horse, pale rider. - Indeed. - The gates open. The light baves her face, she looks out. Cross this dream and then what we will see later, we talked about this already on Sunday, but this interesting melding of the prospect of escape with the confinement and portrait of doom, very effective the way that was captured. Dream two. Helena and childbirth, the babe immediately given to a soldier. We know what that means, we know what that is telling us. And then, you said this on Talk The Thrones. You feel like this conclusively means that's a male heir. Don't you feel like any baby would be taken from her? - I think the fact that that, that would also be the damning takeaway of just no matter what. There's no future for the kid and that's where this has come to. That her dreams are telling her, the fate of the child is sealed. If the instantaneous nature of handmade looks and then hands it to the soldier, means male heir. - What's a wrap? - Yeah. - What we saw next was just honestly so mesmerizing, we need to see it. We need to see it. This might be record timing and the deep dive for a clip of that car load. - I don't know, we're an hour into the episode. - Not in the pod, just in the deep dive section. (laughing) (tires screeching) (tires screeching) - Cut it! (tires screeching) - Yes. - So we have so many thoughts. - Yes. - Plenty of which we have to confine to this boiler section. This is always the case when we go dream school and getting on a thrones property. We got to keep a lot of it for this boiler section. - Yeah. - I did think it was interesting. You know, we were talking about sort of what it means to see Helena on Dragonback. - Yes. - There. - Darling Dream Fire, incredible design. - Beautiful dreamy. - Dreamy has brought into me. - Yeah. - So, sweet, beautiful, darling dreamy. (laughing) - A detail that I love, that, a show on the history of West Rose podcast pointed out is that her outfit there is actually quite similar to what Renera wore in the hunt episode in season one, this sort of short series with the long contrasting color underneath. And then a lot of people have pointed out that they feel like this is supposed to allude to sort of Rainy's and Mellie's and sort of-- - The most infamous. infamous moment in the history of the show. - What's something that Helena would have witnessed? - Beats these boards? - Correct, what if I am the beast beneath the board? - Yes, Helena. - I think that the way that Helena across the series has talked about violence, not only with beast, no beast shall be harmed, but with the refusal. You know, and it's interesting in this exact sequence, when Renera, not the secondary, but the first dream, when Renera's there kind of like looming over. - That she wakes her very weird and very creepy. - A lot of watching people sleep this season. And Renera asks, you know, to Damon ask you to fly with, to Damon ask you to fly with him. My whole council has been buzzing about it, speculating wonder and can you put the rumors to rest. We, you know, we recall that one of the things that Helena said in response to, to Amidst play, Alice, it was there, you know, the, in one of the two conversations, the gentlest among us. But Helena was like, I don't want to burn anyone. So there's something so shocking about seeing Helena say, "Dracorus." And Dreamfire, Amidst that fire, knowing how Helena feels about an act like that. It was just such an effective visual dreamfire. Look, so cool. The dragon's all like sick. Dreamfire was like, I gasp. - I think that's my favorite. - Dragon design is Dreamfire. - Who's last on your list? - Wow. I simply wouldn't eat my friend if we were. - You've learned. You've learned to give you a few years. (laughing) - Did you say you even start with the tongue? - So, yeah. - I did. - You did. - You're the best. This is the yellow jacket's reference. - The yellow jacket's reference. - What's the next season of that? - Who knows? - God. - Boy. - Dragon pit also we, (laughing) it's just like the yellow jacket. And you saying you need to start by eating the tongue and forget about cannibalism. And I got lost in memories of my time together. Now we're back rooted in the stream. Dracaris in the dragon pit. People running in. Even just being back in the dragon pit this episode, like rooting us in King's Landing when Reneira flies back, abandoning Syrax to her wounds, just reminding us that we're in King's Landing. This is like, what do you think was worse? - The dragons are. - Her like. - Her like, saying like put Rene in a room somewhere, or her not telling to Syrax at all, after Syrax got, Syrax got. - Saf. - You know my answer to that. - It's Syrax. - Of course. - The dragon's supposed to be the extension of yourself. - Yeah, I guess you could say it's an open commentary. - But hopping up her hobble dragon and just without a backward glance. - Check in. - Wow. - How about just a soothing, it'll be okay, it will be. - Give her some extra snacks. - A churro. - A churro. - Yeah. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Check in with the dragon keeper or something. Didn't like that. - It wasn't that. - Next part of this dream, the farm. Gotta say this looked great until Winter came. - It looked really lovely. And don't Winter came. - I don't know Winter, the farm seems kind of cozy. - A winter snowflake, sure, apocalyptic white walker Winter in very recognizable, missing hog form moving to us. Gonna pass on that. The chickens, Joanna. - Yeah. - No, Helena wants just to raise chickens, right? - Did you interpret that as Jehara and the unborn babe or Jehara and Jehara? - That was what I think you could read either, but I thought those children, let me say this, I don't know if kids, not an expert. They looked like similar ages to me. Maybe they would have matched their hair a little bit more if they were definitely trying to show us that they were towards me. - I thought it was this to be the easier one, but it felt to me like the baby would be like, I don't know. I guess if it's in the future, yeah. - I thought maybe this was the alternate history where Jehara's hadn't been killed, but maybe it's not. - I'm fine with either. - Yeah, let all the kids live. That's my hot take. - That would be great. - You hear that blood and cheese? (laughing) - We've got notes. We've got feedback. - Joanna, last week, you, a person who has corrective lenses, pointed out to me, a person who is increasingly unable to see if there had been some snowflakes, if it's normal. Lister's had to point it out to me. I did not see it myself the first time. I was like, what were there? So some snowflakes last week. Winter of the seasonal variety coming here before the winter of prophecy in the white walker form, the very cool visual of like blotting at the sun. - The eclipse result just really neat. We should recall that Damon's put my hand into the whereward tree of "Sappy Bloody Goo" vision, the end of season two. Chulina participated in a fascinating way. Also included the apocalyptic winter white walkers. - Winter is cooling across all kinds of dreams. - I would say that. Given that Agon decided to call his real branding expert, call his dream, which is defined to the story. - The song of ice and fire. - Georgia Martin's like, hmm. Chris did ask us, you know, because is actual physical winter coming to Westeros? Yes. That is the season for "Winter to Cool." The hallmark movies are gonna start running Christmas themed movies in Westeros. But Chris is like, does that mean the white walkers are coming with? - Right. - And we did get an email from someone being like, so does Chris think that every time it's "Winter and Westeros," the ice zombies come. And just to clarify. - We should be watching the beginning in Game of Thrones with Chris, just to clarify. - No. - Correct. - Correct. - That just happened specifically in terms of like post to the wall and eventually spoiler south of the wall. That was a very specific what happened in Game of Thrones incident. Everyone's like, what the fuck are these fucking things? - That's right. - You know, that's right. The authors. - It wasn't like, oh, winter is cooling. Zombie time, you know? - What if every time it's snowed? - Yeah. - That was the question. - That would be wild. - It's not a Chris. There's just no one like them. Speaking of the like or not like, dragon dreams we should just say are not the same as three-eyed rave envisions or a heron haul vision or a house of the undying vision or a woods witch prophecy, but they're all of a piece in the brew for George of like, what does my character see in prophetic form? And then do with that information? - I mean, I guess I would say the thrones. - The thrones TV version of rave and three-eyed rave and dream or visions. - I mean, also fairly like, oh yeah, sort of. - Very, very, very of a piece. - Quick snap, shoddy esoteric, you know what I mean? - Oh no, question. - No, this is going to evoke-- - But this is more-- - Julian is having more like impressionistic dreams. - That's right. - That's right. And I was thinking back to what more like English majors come in as what this white horse means here. - That's right. And then blog about it. - The blog, right? - On the London Review of Books. I was thinking back to what Condole was saying. - A visual. - At the end of, we can just make a joke about a podcast people haven't heard yet. - Well, that thing that exists. - That's true. - After the season two finale because of Damon's hair and haul vision and Helena's dream-walking access to that. - So cool. - Which was awesome. And I think this was on the official pod after the season two finale, he said. And he was talking in general about how Helena was, there was the kind of like increasing clarity to what she was seeing, but it was still very like abstract and impressionistic. But saying, this is the point when the world is most rich with dragons and it's very heightened. So this idea, which kind of connects thematically to what Helena says to her nearer, which we'll talk about shortly, about the connection between the dragons and this magic. There's a heightening there. But it is also true that the Targaryen dragon dreamers, the specific slice of prophetic Westerosi story. Targaryen dragon dreamers, that there were, and there will be in the future of the story, Targaryen dragon dreamers, some of which we won't name, because we're gonna cover that stuff in other shows, when the dragons weren't around anymore. So there's like an amplifying element. - We can say, for example, Darin. - Yes. - Who we met in Dunkin Aeg this last season. And you know, so if you watched Dunkin Aeg, you met Darin, the dreamer, and how fucked up he was about the dragon dream city had. But yeah, there are no dragons in the time of Dunkin Aeg. - Right, right. - So we talk-- - It's not dragon dependent, but it's like what we talked about in terms of like, the hinges of the world, or the place where the veil is thin, or all this sort of stuff like that, or yeah. Like magic is coming back to Westerosi's, the whole theme of Game of Thrones, right? So the reason that the isombies get so free, and the reason why Melisonder's fire magic, and the reason, and you know, is like, the dragons are bored. Magic is returning, so, but this is an era of magic, and that makes you really excited for what the fuck Alice can do. - I know. - Same. I always love to think about-- - It's all juiced up. - Boy is she, boy is she. I just love to think about that moment with Lewin and Bran, talking about magic being forgotten, and then to contrast that with what we, as viewers, or as readers, are witnessing rising with Danny. But I'd read this passage on the Danny dragon dreamfront, because this is a dreamer, as dragon magic, is working back into the world, and so the connection there kind of reinforces what we're talking about. This is from A Game of Thrones. Obviously, none of it lads. I've always loved this passage. Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Oh, that gives me a chill. It's books are great. (laughing) The Sarah's not in it this time. Other of the Sarah's always comes back to Ava's Sarah's. There was only her in the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood, her blood, Danny sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire and braced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh searing black in its soft way. It could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce, and the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. "George, you rule? Incredible writing." Oh my God, so good. I would say that for the first time. I would say, Helena not quite so, you know, emboldened by her dreams. Let me get my sketchbook, let me get my needle point out. Maybe she's feeling harried and harassed in part because Reneira is watching her sleep. Let's talk about this. Yeah, that's tough. Boy. Okay, so there's the warning that Helena issues, let's talk about that and then we'll hit right after that. Kind of just the demeanor that Reneira is exhibiting in the sequence and the evolution across the scene. I just want someone to be good at something. Is anyone good at seducing, "Oh, that happened. Good job." Wonderful ale. Wonderful ale. Yeah. Who else is good at anything? Jane, Lady Jane in the Vale seems pretty good at whatever. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like, seduce is the queen. Great job, but seems like a bad mistress of Whispers, honestly. Slopper work, but I'm sorry. What the fuck does she know about what's going on in, you know, flea bottom, et cetera, et cetera. It was Sylvia good at stuff. We'll find out, but the point is, Reneira, very bad at talking to her literal sister in a way that doesn't, I don't know, Helena looked annoyed and then also like, like she was pitying Reneira because Reneira was so bad at it, right? Well, it also the pity of like, you don't, you can't, you're not ready to accept what is happening to you. Like, you can't say it out loud. Didn't you watch the trailer for the season? Alison said, you're going to do things you didn't dream you would ever do on the family member front. Did you find, I mean, obviously the premise of the dance of the dragons to be clear is what we understand. This is a Targaryen Civil War, a family civil war, but I just found it. There was something so intentionally and effectively jarring about our father and sister and like, using the language of family to really reinforce how estranged these people are from each other. I thought it was very new. Who else should have considered it? Adam and Bella. When they're talking about the, the nuptials in the future of the fam, maybe you've heard from your brother? Yeah. Wait, what? No, but like more like, I, your uncle would love to marry you. They all wanted to see your other uncle. Listen. Thrupples would have saved, saved the kingdom. That's how I felt. So you have some feedback on incest, but you would like the brothers to be in the Thrupple. You don't, that doesn't have to be how a Thrupple work. Okay. You know the hinged person in a Thrupple. Maybe that's where this will go. Let's stay tuned for the book's spoiler section to find out. Oh God. I liked this. It's a hinged, wonderful stuff. Helena says that she used to love to fly, but now it's too much, we understand why based on what we've witnessed. And then, Reneer is like, yeah, Bond, okay, great. I can work with this. Let's bond. I feel like the Sarah's felt the same. For two seconds. Sarah's felt the same. He renounced the strength of dragons and embraced a quieter life. Helena says he did not wish to be changed. You believe the dragons alter us in some way? I thought that's a price for Reneer. I was like, uh. Yeah. Yeah. The first episode of this series was like, Viserys telling you exactly that. We talk about it literally every pod by way, do you mean you? Yes. And I will again. Yeah. Today, I won't be standing up. You won't be stopped. And again, probably next week who knows and then probably eight weeks at a road during season four. You now have many dragons. Are you yourself not dramatic pause ellipses? Oh, dude. Yeah. Yeah, that's how she said it. I think she was about to cow a bonga. Oh, two. [LAUGHTER] [PLAYING] [PLAYING] [PLAYING] White bell. [LAUGHTER] Hopefully, I've done that. No. Not the mine. Not the tone. That was like the Batman theme song. Like, yeah, I was really genre mash in there. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And the Sarah's did not pronounce Valerian because he wanted to be a dreamer. He didn't fear dreams. He desperately wanted to be a dreamer, as he said, and that desperation led to so much of this. Right. So this is a fascinating, like, selective memory on our history and war machine dragon. He was like, no, thank you. No, thank you. Renowned. [INAUDIBLE] Valerian. [PLAYING] Helena's rebuke of the Dragon Riding Family members has been interesting. Like, with Aamand, it was very over, right? Was it worth the price? It won't make any difference. Like, the thing that you're doing and the way that you are living your life is wrong, and I won't participate in it. But even today, in the dreamwalking, it's all a story, and you're about one part of it. You know your part, you know what you must do. And now here. The way that Helena has tried, frankly, in the kind of limited screen time, until recently, to reach the drag, puncture the dragon riding cube. Or it's kind of interesting to think about, especially now that we've glimpsed some of these dreams correctly. She should have been the high-tower, target tower with red hair. I mean, what a fascinating alternate history that is. But Allison was like, I got to keep you here. Got to marry a new dear brother and keep you here, tough one. Dragons, the Iron Throne, prophecy of ice and fire, the effect of power in many forms, this idea for the targ rollers that these things are all entwined, right? So whether you're talking about the idea that you control dragons is an illusion shot of a series. A power of invention, never of trifle with California, when the profilerians do, you know, Allison's comments to Ranera this season about the crown and the throne and the inevitable kind of cost and price of that power, power in all these forms. The path is the same because those things are inextricable from each other. The dragon leaves you to the throne of the crown. You think you have to keep it because of the prophecy that your dragon dream gave you? The targs, rich text, each sh*t see our. Track Ranera's tonal evolution across this scene. Not to mention the physical. Yeah. Also. Yeah. Here's my note for Ranera. This one, only one, just the one. Take a peek at the needle point maybe. Let me ask you this. Do you think she still could? She still could because it's there. She knows it's there. She pulled it out of Helena's hand. She didn't inspect it right there, but if she's so desperate for Helena to tell her something about the future, do you think she'll have a light bulb moment and go back and look at it in the finale? Maybe. The physicality was shocking. The grabbing of the forearm. Well, I just, it's a burning tower on the needle point this week. And who knows what else was on there? I gotta say, you're the one who pointed out last week's episode that the hair and haul that she was stitching with the sort of like the aemon womb stuff, all the flowers around it. Do you feel like that was a nightshade sort of reference? Totally possible. She's like, here's where my mom's gonna try to poison my brother with all those helpful botanical hints I've been giving her all season. Do you call it a new that that's what Allison would do with their like, it's just, it's a, you know, I think the general this question, and this is on our minds in the sequence, 'cause Reneer is like, here's a very specific list of things I want you to tell me about, right? Laundry list of what's up with this person, this person, this setting, this setting. And Lina's like, I don't know, you don't know or you won't tell me. That's not how dreams were. So this question, yeah, of like, what has Helena, I mean, the things that Helena said to Aamand in the season two finale, like, we have a sense that if that tapestry unfurled further, there would be things from elsewhere in the story, right, all over the timeline that she's like, Chris and Cole? Yeah. So like, torn man, really? What, which of those feel like something she can say something about to a character? And which of those feel like things that she can't process, but could eventually? But also she's like, I was dreaming I was in the courtyard with a pale horse. I dreamt I had chickens and my children were still alive. I dreamt Sabbath of fray, whispered something at the small council meeting. I did it on there, I do, I do, I do, Sabbath of fray showing up in Kingsland and just long enough to make the fucking tapestry and then piecing out again for her and all, that shit. I just want everyone who's not watching the podcast, but listening to the podcast, to know that when Mallory mimed embroidery, she used crochet gestures. I've never crocheted, I was once an enthusiastic knitter, back in the day, college, loved, loved and it made a lot of scarves, never advanced beyond that, but I found it very soothing, very soothing. It's a different, it's a winter sport. So it's tough out here in LA. Renera, like we speculated last week is like, I've got a dreamer here and I want not only to know actionable intel but to know then. that I am the chosen one. - Would you say Vernier has a praise kink? - Do you think that's what's-- - Let's ask Missaria. - Missaria knows she does. - Yeah. - Missaria thinks I will feed it for you. - Indeed. - Here's what I'm a Darcy said on inside the episode. - Ryan, Kendall. And I spoke about the sort of dissent into tyranny. I think for both of us, it felt super important to do that in a way that felt very legible. It felt like an opportunity to take this relatively sympathetic character and use her to sort of expose something about the corrupting nature of power. - Present across the season, present across the series. Captured quite well in this scene with Helena. - I will say, so here's something, I love the inside the episodes. I love every time I hear I'm a Darcy, talk about their character, Emma is so perceptive. I do feel like sometimes on the inside the episodes, these actors telegraph things that are coming for their characters. You know what I mean? I love from last season, Emma has been like, this is going really bad for Ranera. So if someone's watching and they don't know how the story goes, and maybe they'd like to think, as soon as Ranera gets to King's Landing, everything's gonna be fine. - Yeah. - But I think the most pronounced example of that this season to me was Lonnie. - Yeah, but Lonnie, last episode, with the kind of the thrones, like, we all know what that means. (laughing) (sniffing) - The Dragon's Dance, mm-hmm. Damien and Jane, before we get to some ground battle, have it out again up in the area. 'Cause Damien's back in the veil, he's pissed, he charges past the guards, and interrupts a very intimate interlude between Jasmine Redford, we think, and our girl, Jane Aron, who is honestly thriving, comes sit on my lap, can I read the passage from Fire and Blood about Jane Aron? - Please. - Mushroom tells us that this famous maiden was in truth a high-born harlot with a voracious appetite for men, and gives us a salacious tale of how she offered Prince Chisarris, the allegiance of the veil, only if you could bring her to climax with his tongue. Septine Eustace repeats the widespread rumor that Jane Aron preferred the intimate companionship of other women. - What goes on to say it was not true. In this instance, we must be grateful for Grand Master Munkins true-telling for he alone can find himself to the high hull of the eerie, rather than its bed chambers. - Well guess what, Jane Aron's like the high hull of the eerie is a bed chamber, let's fuck. - Anywhere could be a bed chamber if you're inventive enough. - Exactly. - So Jane Aron's like, publicly, I like to have my hounds here, privately, my consort here. We do think it's Jessup and Redford, who is related to Adrian Redford, who meets his end in this episode. So a big redford episode, perhaps. - That's way to go. - But yeah, you know, Jane Aron is, we've talked about this before, but Jane Aron is an interesting counter to Renear in terms of like a woman in power. - Yes. - So just, I mean, yes, it's a private moment, I guess, in the high hull, but it is still like, she still feels free. - Absolutely. - Do you have her girlfriend on the throne with her? - Yes. - Missaria, much as she may want to, is not sitting on a sword throne with Renear, that's not happening. So, you know, double standards, depending on how important your throne is. - Indeed. - But Jane Aron does what she wants, including slapping dragonwriters and slapping. - Swild. - She's an icon. - Other things. (laughing) - This is great because she, she's some in Damon. He's pissed that Rene has gone. She's like, what did she expect me to do with the dragonwriters? They don't listen and he's like, what about, you know, confine her? We have made the dreamy. Why don't you just call for your dragon joke all week, all week, all season. If Jane Aron had put Renear in a Skysell, Damon, you can't keep a dragon rider in a Skysell, 'cause then she actually could have just done, she be, she be, she be. Jane's worried about exposure, right? The risk is no longer worth it. This was always a very tenuous arrangement. And she's like, I'm telling Renear, right? I'm gonna try to contain this while I can. And Damon says, give me a minute, give me a beat. He has to very comically have to dramatic pause here, say please, which I thought set up such a palpable contrast to the like quiet, gentle, unleaning and whispering, cupping your face in your cast. - Please turn, Renear. - But he says please, twice in this episode. He says sorry in this episode. And here's what I'll have to say. - Heron Hall therapy, it works. - It really does, it really does. - While to see Damon Targaryen just fall on his ass out in the dragon fight field. - Yeah. He's going through it. - He's going through it. - Great acting work from Matt Smith. - It was, it was. If you do not watch House the Dragons fill, the shout out. - Daryl Callum, the dragon puppeteer. - What about that one viewer? He was like, I can't see anything. - Yeah, I just tell him there's a team of people in sort of like blue spandex suits. - Yes, like sort of like blue man groups sort of like spandex suits or whatever. But the lead dragon puppeteer is named Callum. - Yeah. - A big fan. - Incredible stuff. - Big fan of Callum's work. But he just looks like an absolute asshole in the field in his blue spandex with this like dumb little blue dragon. - It's incredible. And he's like so committed to the craft. - Yeah, and then Nick cut to Matt Smith. And he's like, it'll look good on screen. I'm paraphrasing. It'll look good on screen. It was fucking misery. - Cause he had to do that fall like 20 different times. - And also, Abadarcy's like, it was a bog. So it was like, it was like, it's like is that where they shot like the wind. - So he directed both double bog episodes. - You think you'd ever go back to the bog? - What's some of that? - Yeah. - But everyone's falling over in this bog just much like Gwen and Kristen were falling over in the previous bog. - Boy, fewer leeches this time at least. Joanna speaking of people working through some pain. - Care to report how our pal David Jacoby is doing. - Not really. - Frankly, frankly, shocking line from Janere. - So our friend David Jacoby, a ringer colleague, is the number one nettles fan I think in the world. - There's no question. - Well, dork. - Dorks are our marten and second only. - I think Jacoby could challenge for the top spot. - That is how much he cares about this. - We've been receiving like, screed texts from Jacoby for literally years. - Literally years. - About what's happening with nettles and then the Reina situation this year and then when this happened, when Janere and Cheekily says living among the nettles in the sheep about Reina. And it's like, oh, that's why they call her nettles or whatever. - Yeah, Jacoby didn't straight up had a bad time about it. - Didn't appreciate it. - No. - No, yeah. - Jail for everyone. - Jail for everyone. - Jail for everyone. - How did you find it where you like, oh, nettles, wink, wink, nod, nod, I like it. I feel seen as a book reader where you like, this is rude. - I think it's fine. - Yeah. - I thought it was kind of cute. It looks like, you know, something that I've been wondering is if, you know, if Reina now, you know, because when Reina is back in King's Landing and bail is like, we'll start over. - Mm-hmm. - You don't err for you. - Yeah. - Reina is like. - I don't want to do that anymore. - I don't. - Yeah. - I said canonically, I would never leave him. - Since we do, okay. So we're just guessing here, right? Because we don't know. - This is so different. The book, so this is just a pure guess. But let's say Reina and she be are done forever. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. But let's say they are. I don't think so. Let's say they are. - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - And Reina then gets back on track with her, her book plot. - You think I had a lot of canon and lower questions about Seesmark. (laughs) - No, I got a lot of emails about this, actually. - I will say the constant use of separated and renounced does introduce the question of a conscious uncoupling or forced uncoupling? - Right, so let's say Reina gets on track with, and then like, is a cover story that they could spread? Like, that wasn't Reina. That was some wild girl named Metals. - Sure. - You know? - Yeah. - Just to save face, save talking or any face. Blurring face. - They could try. - Something to think about. (laughs) - Bella and Adam. - Orman would do it. - He would certainly try. - He knows we are. - He does. - He knows pears and he knows we are. - They're incredible, Norman episode, honestly. - They all are. - They really are. They're on Adam. This was some of the most devastating shit I've ever seen for a beloved Adam. So they're out looking for Vagar. They think that they think they're still looking for Amin. - A polycule. - Mm-hmm. - Great. - Something they think about. - I'm in. I'm in. Vail's going to patient. Says that Raniera is punishing her for the gullet. - True. - True. - And says that Raniera is using them as tools. Also clearly true. The way that all these riders are either a tool or like an Adam and C-Spoke's case of portent. - Or sign a sign or a portent. - We got a lot of you most from listeners being in this episode questioning, what was the plan if Adam and Bayless spotted Vagar? Because it's not like, with love and respect, moon dancer and C-Spoke could take Vagar. So as the plan, let's go back and report. But Vagar is just caught on the moon. - Every time they're on the field, they're like, we're two days behind. So what was the point of this? - My honest response to that is, from the team that brought you, let's attack Kings Landing with no army. - Like, right? - Yeah. - Because like if three dragons got rather, and one of them more than the others, fucked up by sheepsealer, sheepsealers drop in the bucket compared to Vagar. So like, you know. you know, just like what on earth were Moon Dancer, who is a young, young dragon, a little T-Smoop baby. It's supposed to do with Vagar. - I mean, and so is Renera's sent them out on a suicide mission essentially. I don't think she would because, not doesn't want to lose Adam. - I was not saying, not because she cares about Bala, but because she's like Adam, my, my, you know, my symbol of my legit machine, you know? - The proof that I'm more dain' to sign from the gods. Um, I'm like, the sign from the gods is if I get to fuck my name. And he's like, oops, my brother was there first. (laughing) - This is just an incredible story. - Don't we've devoted our careers to covering? - Tough for me. My brother fucked my name first. - It was so brutal. It really was so brutal. I felt bad for Adam. It was such a sweet appeal. Will you help? - Will you help me? - You know, we, yeah, we've become legitimized Florians in case we, you know, one of us meets a, I just really like Clinton Liberty. I just, he's like, very good. - He's fantastic. The panel is, they didn't have to really work through this here because there's a shriek, you know, announcing sheep's dealer in the distance. But they're gonna have to work through this eventually. And I will say, I was relieved that this happened because it was worried that the superior, - Sorry, I'm picking up my phone for a reason. (laughing) - Not being what I said, I'm disrespecting you. 'Cause I remember I took a photo of the screen and the scene - Let's see. - Because there's a big question from the listeners and whether or not this is a pile of dragon shit. Is that a rock or is that a pile of dragon shit behind Balan and Adam? Is this good podcasting? - Interesting. - Carlos, let's toss that up on the big screen. I think it is. - That could be it, that could be a giant turn. - Yeah, I think it is. - It could be a rock. - It doesn't really look like a rock because it has some like textured to it, like, you know. - Yeah. - Our best comp is the Tyrannosaurus shit in Jurassic Park. - Yeah. - Anyway, I took a photo of it with my phone so that you could look at it and weigh in on whether or not you thought it was a pile of shit. - I'm in. - And what if that hit Orman from above? - I mean, from the moment that the smell was introduced, the possibility that Orman would have to contend with Dragon Dunn at some point has been telling us. - I know, we've been talking about it, but to actually see how expansive the turds are and is that supposed to be a vagar turd? Like, you know, so they're tracking and they're like, oh, pile of a vagar shit. - Following our ship. - How many total vagar shit have they had to sort of like live their life around? It's a great question. - Is that how they're actually able to tell how many days it's been? 'Cause like the Scorchmark, I would want them to give you - What can you believe in? - Big love, love. - Yeah. - That Laura Dern gets in Jurassic Park. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And he'll be like, oh, Barry's the dome. - So it hasn't hardened. - It's been two days. - Yeah. (both laughing) - Right. - This is the best, the best. That's a problem with that one. - I think it was. - I mean, I couldn't see a snowflake, so I don't know. - And I would say the restraint to not like make a shit joke or like have Adam Fallface first into it. They're just like, we're just gonna put a giant pile of Dragon Dunn behind these two characters. - I would say that while he's getting his heart broken, the show's famous for constraint. - Yeah. - I know. So I'm saying, what did he recoil in hurt? - Fell into the shit. - To find out that his niece had fucked his brother and then he's like, and when he wanted to fucker himself and then he just like fell into a pile of Dragon shit. It's a different show. That's Dunkin' Egg. - It is. - Yeah. - Diaria Dunn, remember him? (both laughing) What do you think Poop Robin's gonna do? (both laughing) - Oh God. I'm glad that the chemistry between these two was not like an own goal in the show didn't realize and actually was setting up this tension. Which, I mean, it's a relief. I disagree in that I still think it's a mistake. I still, I mean, that they're using it for something short. That Adam, when he's like, take a rest, have a snack like previous in the season, it's because he like fancies his niece. Okay, that's lovely. I'm not gonna let it go. It says, rubbery. (both laughing) But, but they're still out scorching, Adam and Bella. I still think that's a problem, you know? There's no question. - For Bella to coolly be like, oh, did your brother talk to you? Like as if she had any kind of century? (both laughing) - Face against stick. - The fucking century. - What's it? - Oh, no. - I don't know. I mean, oh God, maybe if they're surrounded by piles of drag and shit, that's why these two haven't fucked though. It's not the most romantic setting. - Yeah, you've got the open air. - But, the aroma. (both laughing) - There was a thing, when I lived in Sonoma County, I can't wait to see what you say next, given that we've been talking about heaping piles of drag and shit and insults. - It's about cow shit. - Great. Sonoma County, we're in, there's a lot of cattle. Someone just called you to Davis, where there's a lot of cattle. And so, both places, when the weather gets quite warm, smelly, it just kind of reeks of manure. That's just the realities of living in Davis and Sonoma. Two places I've lived in my life. In Sonoma, they call it the Sonoma Aroma. Like when the heat hits, and the winds are not blowing it out to see, and all you can smell has been newer, that's the Sonoma Aroma. - Oh, Larus asks, "Spin job." It will be my duty to make sure that they refer to it as the Sonoma Aroma in honor of his racist bravery. I'm gonna work on my British accent before next season. - That's impeccable, why would you? (laughing) - Cowbunga. (imitating cowbunga) Oh, a fin maker. We haven't had a cause to do that in a while, which is sad. - Oh, John, get it together. - It's fucking slow, John. - Slice and a Dyson. - I know, for real. - Speaking of slice and a Dyson. - Adam and Bella, sheepie news to share with the small council, of course, but before that, we get a glimpse once again of Reneira's small council on absolute tatters. I did feel that there was momentum in this scene, though. Like there was shit show, as always, but they were talking about some new things, like the shit show that is torn mentally is Pietater. This was so funny. It was so validating to me because we were like, "Why would torn mentally have a house in town?" And he's like, "Okay, he does have a Pietater." In King's Landing, that's great, shit smeared great. And then he was like, "It's almost like I've been set up "as a scapegoat all-time reaction shot from Missaria." - She literally did. - Yeah. - The Homer Simpson retreating into the bushes, man. - There's also in this small council scene, there's a sort of camera up from above, a really episode three shot of Reneira, sort of like camera dramatic angle down, and she's tapping her fingers, but we get no finger cut check-in in this episode. - That's right, we don't. - No, how's the magical leprosy going for Reneira in this episode? - No. - You're right. - Giprotest. (laughing) - God, I thought that Reneira's gaslighting, 'cause we talked previously in prior episodes about the very like, there was something subtle about the way that they were actually scapegoating to her, and talking in the throne room, but I will blame him was like kind of absurd. I thought that the gaslighting from Reneira in this scene was hysterical when she's like, well, what have you been doing about it? (laughing) - It's kind of incredible. - Really, really good. This is where Sabatha's like, you know, if a child asks enough times in a row before a cookie, before a bad, maybe they'll get it, and Reneira's just like, fucking take it. Go, and can you make sure Amin's dead while you're at it? Here's what she says. - If Sir Adrian has been successful in his endeavor, of course, then there's a small matter of hair and hull. So let's go through the things that Sabatha Frey knows that there is a prophecy. No details of a prophecy, but there is a prophecy. - I still can't handle this. - You're still upset we got a lot of emails telling you to chill out about it, but it's okay. - I won't. - I won't. - And then she knows that Reneira sent her queen's guard to go murder, like, why does Sabatha Frey know about that plan? Why? (laughing) - So I don't know idea. - And also, I mean, so if you'll recall, I mean, I know, we've already stated in this episode and constantly throughout the season, the thesis of the season is Reneira will have to do things. She never dreamed she thought she would do once she's wearing the crown and sitting on the throne. It does this to you, it power corrupts, whatever you prefer. - Yeah. - But I was thinking, as I often do, of our guy Lutheran, condemned to use the tools of Miami to defeat them because who sent a king's guard to assassinate a would be heir? It was our guy, Kristen Cole, and by our guy, I mean, not, who orchestrated the cargo bowl. And when he did it, it was such a fucking big deal violation that he did this, you know? So Reneira's like, I'll do this, I guess. I'll do the same thing. - She's been doing the full Lutheran since she was talking about Sharon or Dreams with Ghosts in episode three. - With it high of rise, always, no. Not the only time that Andor was coming up to that killed Lonnie. Fucking spoiler, dude. (laughing) For Andor. Fuck you if you haven't seen Andor. - You're the problem. - Oh my God. What'd you think of just the fact that Reneira is honoring a pledge, but only 'cause it suits her and 'cause she's lost her patience completely. She's not like giving you hair and also the right thing 'cause Jay said it should be yours. - Go get her real. - That like whistle fog soundscape change kicks in again. - Wining, yeah. Yeah, very good when the news that sheepies in fair market with the rider done, done, done, is shared. We're gonna talk about the Missaria, Raniera, Raniera Damon, Missaria Damon aspect of this. Separately, we're gonna stick with the dragon stuff for now and we'll hit that next. Damon finds Reyna. Cracksies and Damon takes sheep's dealer and Reyna down so that a father and daughter can enjoy a cool, complicated chap, work through it, maybe it'll be fine. I thought that Reyna, helpfully shared a little reminder and a pre-dragum brawl warning. He does not heed me. He does not heed me. This admission that there was no control here which is very much on display. - Is that the idea that we control the dragons as an illusion? The Schmiller was Valeria. - The doom. - Here's, I have a question for you. Are you familiar with the concept of love being the death of duty? - Would you apply love being the death of duty to this Damon, Raniera, Rana situation? Because so it is, okay, is it, I think it's more complicated than that because if you're saying Damon's love for his daughter, his newfound love for his daughter right now. - Which at least he, yeah. - In this episode. - It really satisfied me in this episode too. I almost wish like we had had that first encounter and then this one and then I was meant to buy sort of like his conversion rather than have it happen like instantly earlier in the season. - Yeah. - I could buy it here. But so newfound love for his daughter. Oops, I was a bad dad for his daughter, Rana. So that's love. And his duty being to his queen to inform her about what's going on with Schmiller being us. But his queen is his wife. So there should be love. - And the tenderness with which he says you are my wife later. - There should be love there as well. So it's just like a, you know, it turns out incest and family civil wars complicate this question. I wouldn't marry my niece. - Brave take, thanks. (laughing) - Brave take. - Do you have an offer to cheese figure or with her? - Oh, sweet. - Oh, the family that, yeah. Goes on suicide submissions together, stays together for a minute at least. I thought it was quite sad when Rana was like, why, why would you help me? I don't believe that you would help me. That was a pretty crushing moment for Damon. And for Damon stands. He says, basically, 'cause I get it. I get a lot of it. I get that I've been a bad dad and also, I had no dragon either when I was young. Did you know that? My mother died in child bed when I was three years of age. My mother who I wanted to fuck. Check out season two. - Don't worry about it. - My brother sank into sadness. I was alone just as you've been. I should have done better, Rana. - His dad also died, but he's more interested in his mom, the one he wanted to fuck. Yeah. - I think all the mentions of like Viserys and Damon when they were younger in their relationships to dragons. And also, does that give us, once again, another Amand Damon connection? Yes, of course it does. - Yes. - I didn't have a dragon when I was younger. I know, sad. And then I got the long boy himself. - Right, that's right. It's sweet, sweet bloodworm. When this had come up previously in the show, there was a little bit of the comedy. And it's actually kind of like, it's stark to think back to it now, given this rift between Bela and Raniera, Bela and Raniera, and Midway through season two, in episode five, we're talking about when they were mourning Raniis and Mali's. Did your grandmother ever tell you of the night she claimed Mali's? She snuck in the dragon pit. She knew that place better than any. They say she could even see in the dark. My father was furious. His own mother, who we wanted to fuck, his own mother's dragon, the fastest beast ever known. And she'd have none of him, but bent her neck to Rani. So this idea that he wanted Mali's. - Yeah. - To be close to his mama. And she wouldn't have a red queen. - And the pursuit and the weight. Interesting. I think this idea that Damon maybe on some level was like more distant from the daughter who reminded himself of him in some capacity. And then that unlocks this very again, Viserys doomed to repeat it if we don't need our history's idea. And just Damon kind of reckoning with the failures as a father, failure in all respects limitations and all respects across the season. And I was thinking back to our conversation about that sequence with Raina and Damon in episode four. Actually later in this episode, when Damon and we'll talk about this more when we get to it, but Damon and Raniara, when Raniara is like, what did she think I was gonna do? And like, - Damon. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Absolutely. - And as Alinda is watching, I did love that camera shot of Alinda's face. Like, I don't want to be here. Can I be anyone? Talk about disappearing into the head. - Why not? - That's Alinda Massey. I was gonna make a joke about how Damon wanted to disappear into the head. And I decided not to. And then I said I was gonna do it. - So here we are. - But the like idea that Damon specifically is actually the one who was coaching and guiding Raniara toward embracing the violence. And then it's like having to stare in the face the potential consequence of that welding and queuing of the sword. Like, what if it comes toward your family, toward your child, that was interesting. - Speaking of violence, tooth and claw time. The scene is not in the books and it was awesome. - It was great. - It was awesome. - Remember when I talked to Thrones when C.R. was like, "Oh, Bunch of Dragons are injured now." And you and I were like, (laughs) - That was great. - That was great. - I was talking to Thrones moments, honestly. - When you and I were just like, "We did not fucking think of that." - C.R. really blew my mind there. - Got me. - Got me good. - Great stuff. - Raina and Damon are interrupted by the arrival of Adam and Ranera because the Ranera, sorry, a conversation that we'll talk about in a bit, sends Ranera out into the field. - It's like you and I'm not you bailing. (laughs) - Not you bail. - And Raina thinks the Damon betrayed her. Again, very sad. And Damon's like, "I swear I didn't run." Syracx lands so hard and so angry, so clearly channeling Ranera's rage. We've shared this passage a number of times across our seasons, but some will claim that the bond between a dragon and a dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. Could really feel that in this sequence I thought, even though it's paired deliciously with the fact that like the bond is that deep, there's no control. And both those things are true. And then this is what it looks like. The four dragons forming a circle with the little tiny people, these powerful beings in the realm who are specks in the middle of that circle. Such a great visual. - And to your point, like watching Damon, Damon, Daimon, Targaryen, you know, like the fiercest warrior fallen his ass. It was great. - And watch the cool. - The queen of the realm, sort of like, hunched over and like cowering. And you know, Adam acquitted himself pretty well. - Adam, perfect. - As usual, we have no notes for Adam, except that he wants to commit incest. - So does everyone else in the show? - Chase is down, his would be future sister and law slash niece. - What did she make of this? Renera saying to Damon, this is before the full carnage unfolds here, answer carefully. You will not have another chance to deceive me. - Like, because I won't trust you or 'cause you're gonna be fucking dead. - I'm gonna kill you. - Absolutely. - Big yikes energy here. - I mean, yikes from everyone honestly. (both laughing) In the book, there is this question of like, Damon's protectiveness towards Nettle. - Yes. - Is it because Nettles is his daughter? - Mm-hmm. - You know, which is the aversion of which they've decided to go with the show. Or is it his lover, right? And this is something like, "Reneer is convinced." - Yes. - That I'm sorry is pushing on. I think this is fine to talk about that. - Yeah, I think it's fine to talk about it 'cause I really don't think they're going there with Damon and Renera. - I think they've just cleaned Swap. He lied to you about the dragon for he's fucking her. - In terms of massarias, pursuits at least. - Sure, but I'm just saying, like, despite all the insistence on the show, I do not think they're going to say, let's do a love story between Damon and Renera. I don't think it's happening. So I think it's fine to say that this is like, a rumor or a supposition never confirmed, but this is what Renera believes. That like, Damon and Nettles are having a sexual affair and massaria is pushing this message, et cetera. - Right. - So when Renera like lands and is like, you know, what do you know of Sheep Steelers' writer? Like, I really felt that like, are you fucking this? - Before she finds out it's Renera. - Yeah. - I felt a real like. - What is the nature of this relationship? - What is going on with the consciousness? - Fuck is going on here. - Totally. - And then she's like, oh my God, it's Renera. - Right, the show is like, guys, we're not going to do that on our program. Damon only wants to fuck his mom, his daughter, his mom, and his niece. We love those nieces. - Oh God. - Not father, daughter. - Step two. - There's a limit. - Yeah. - Even for House of the Dragon. Adam drags Rainer forward. Renera learns the truth to her astonishment. Let's out that this is finished. Rainer kind of falls to her knees and Renera begins to move forward toward her. Which was on my mind later when Renera was like, what did you think I was going to do? I was like, well, I was pretty scared for a second there. As you charged forward. Just to take her prison or maybe, but like it was all a fair, there's a lot of violent, there's a lot of violence on display here. And then she peed is like, no, you won't. No, charges forward to defend his rider. I find the bond between sheep's tiller and Raina in this sequence and in general, quite beautiful. And so it's devastating that they've been part of. - No. Raina's like anguish. - It reminded me so much of his dark materials. - Oh yes. - When Lyra Pan are sort of like pulled apart from each other. - Yeah. - Just sort of like great call. - The just the soul-redding experience of being separated from your from your dragon. - Yeah, yes. And the shriek that sheepsealer omits is like rena is flying off. That was just really, really, really awful. The fight itself, Carnage Chaos, and it's on the ground, which is a new twist and new flavor for us for dragon war. - And the broad daylight. - Yeah, various permutations of three on one sheepie. She'd be asked to fight all of the other dragons at some point, including more than one of that at a time. Syracuse, you know, to take some pretty serious, it's like able to fly off, which sheepsealer's not. Sheepsealer tries to look away, but worried. So much throat, throat chomping. And then Syracuse gets a really good nail. Like one of those like hissing steam coming out from nail swipes, the steaming jeepsealer. I mean, it's very sad, but looked amazing in this sequence. She spoke gets tossed around a bit. Caraxi's takes the least damage by far among the set. Sheepsealer the most, but Syracuse definitely very heavily wounded, and that was, I mean, it was fun to see Syracuse in the field, but sad to see Syracuse take the damage like that. - So CR asked us on talk the thrones sort of like, who is the baddest dragon in this brawl? And you and I slightly disagreed, though conceited that each other had good points. And the internet seems largely on your side, but I just wanted to give you that, but also I'm sticking by. I think your point that supported me, which is that sheepsealer survived as one attack, is Caraxi's like, Slicker has better moves, like all of that is true. It's just sheepsealer's bigger tough, like the hide gets tougher. - Yeah, that's one thing. - Is Caraxi the more a depth fighter? - Absolutely. - In this stretch of the story, sheepsealer has, other than the complete fumble of the gullet, no bad experience within this kind of setting, whereas Caraxi's is just like a season warrior. - But the time had to survive out in the rough, you know? - Compare that to the fourth thornish war with Aiman. I don't know, you survived. - And then you evade the cannibal. - And now this, I mean, yeah, cannibal is no fucking joke. No fucking joke, we're gonna see cannibal at some point. - I'd love it. - I really hope so. The fight was amazing in terms of just the choreography of it and how cool it looked, but more importantly, in season three episodes seven, where we've seen a lot of dragon carnage, but we're heading into not only the finale of the season, but the final stretch of House of the Dragon, we got one more season left. And unless, I mean, I guess they could change it. This would be starting reports and announcements to this point. Eight episodes of season four, right? So we're in the end game-ish. - In the end game now. A very like riveting and effective way to remind us as the dance continues, what dragon war actually looks like, right? The illusion of control, as we've talked about many times, that opening warning, Joe, from the great council, which you mentioned on Talk the Throes, the idea, right? The only thing that can tear down the house of the dragon is itself. You see that rendered so clearly here in a way that you really is like, it's undeniable. - Well, and as you brought up on Talk the Throes, this is Team Black on Team Black Violence. - Yeah. I mean, Raina and Sheepie undeclared, but like, no team green here. - And this is still devastation. - I mean, this is just such a fumble of Han fumble. Rainier, I'm really rooting for you. Like, we could make Raina and Sheepie steal her an asset. No, I understand. Like the, the Jace trauma is real. But there's like no attempt to be like, oh, Raina claimed a big fuck off dragon. - Right, what can we do with that? - Let's redo the dragon math. - I thought that was pretty interesting as a through line in this episode. Actually, a cross character sets, like confronted with some new thing in real time. Can you pivot? Like, that's the best example of it. A lesser example, but still interesting to me was like the level of remorse and repentance that Amand, a flawed character who's made mistakes, shows to Allison to when talking about Edges. - She's like, I'm gonna still poison you. - Not like, what if we tried to make this work and challenge Rainiera? - Let's get on beggar, go get your sister and go raise some chickens. - Can we have chickens here at Heron Hall? Would your God's girlfriend enjoy if not Lee, she's bringing her back in with the blonde goes right into the culture. Come on. - Hopefully when you loved, I really think Allison would love Helena. Think of the things that could talk about her. - Talk about her. - Spinoff we deserve. - Oh no. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - Oh my God, that would be great. That would be great. - I love that. - So let's find beggar, wherever the fuck she may be. - Look at the tabbings and go get your sister. - I love it, I'm in. The reminder that dragons can kill dragons in half to quote the fire of blood passage that is so germane to the text. And as we mentioned on Talk to Thrones, Damon was the one, and at the end of season one, who voiced that line. But the thing that he said after it, it wasn't just it's no easy thing for a man to be a dragon slayer, but dragons can kill dragons and has. He moved right from that into dragon math, right? The simple truth is this, we have more dragons. When you see the way the dragons can hurt each other. Now have people kill dragons? Yes, including in some very PTSD moments at the end of Game of Thrones. But also as we've talked about recently, like Hellhole, right? Other examples as well. - When they kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet, I just saw never, simply never recover for it. - Never. (laughs) Never. - We're gonna redo the dragon math at the end of, we will. - We will, we will, we will. - We'll recount the size of kids. - 'Cause I mean, this has been a massive shift inside of this episode. - A multiple, a multiple counts. - So we've seen Joe. We've seen how dragons can hurt each other, but this really like crystallizes something, right? Shipbreaker Bay. Damon and Baker are against Luke and Ayraxe, RIP, tough one. Just like a trisket, a little stand one bite. Done. - For it all. - Not even a trisket, because that's, 'cause sometimes I could take two bites. It's like one of those little trisket triangles. - That's right. - Yeah. And then like a little point of the triangle falls and then Reneira found it later. That was it. For it all. Rook's rest, obviously. - Damon and Vega are versus Reney's and Malie's dead. Devastating and then burning Egonon's on fire, who lives. And you know, the gullot is different, but we see the dragon. - That's a blame machine sealer. Oh my god, everybody else. I'm not blaming sheep sealer. I'm still blaming chase, who I miss, but who never should have gone into that setting. You know, and we've talked about this, Megar, the cruel a lot this season, but Megor and Balarian versus Egon, different Egon, son of Aeneas, and Quicksilver at the God's eye, at Heron Hall, one of the most famous, and that it precedes this stretch in the timeline. So these characters know that history. - Sure, she's a gore. She's been tested. - Here's the thing. I don't like to tell Reney her what she can't do. Much like John Locke, but I believe women can do things. Given how shittily Syrax acquitted herself inside of this fight, how well do you think Reney or what have done at the gullot? - You know, this is an interesting question because the catch-22 of this, this is kind of where Jason and Veermax found themselves, 'cause Jason was like, "Semi out, no, no, no." And then it's like, "Are you ready?" Should Youron have been able to kill Regal that quickly? I say no. - I say no, folks. - But if those dragons had been able to grow and bond and not been chained in the catacombs of Marine. - The Syrax is more mature than Veermax for sure, but I'm just like, sorry. I put on Syrax like nine different ways constantly, but like, I don't know, like young Reney on Syrax was just like such a cool action couple, and now it's really like- - All of his pants! - Yeah, now it just feels like, these ladies are too delicate for a war and I don't like that transition. - I thought Syrax did, like, but put up a shot or two. - Put up a shot or two. - Okay. - No? - Zero points, you say zero points. - No, I mean, she's got that type in. Then he else type in. - Missoria, making her moves. So Missoria's feeling the pull of power here. After that small council sequence, Missoria just immediately following her near it. Once again, this conversation taking place in a hallway, grabbing her near it, in a hallway. Queen's guard there, who else is seeing this? Shocking stuff as usual. Then she goes like, uh, you know, and pedals it back. - Yeah. Who can say what allegiance he may have formed in secret when he found you lacking wild? I thought in general, Missoria in this episode and the conversations with her nearer, you favorite character. Missoria, I do think she'd be, I stand by the podcasting take. I find Missoria interesting to watch. Not sure she'd crack my up top 20 favorite characters, but I do think she's very interesting. I think there's this like very sincere obviously attempt to diminish Damon, to elbow him out of the way, but so much of what was happening in this episode in particular was very much fueled by the, like projecting knowing that she has done these things too. It was, I found it necessary and I was glad that Renera called her out on that later. - Oh yes. - And again, we talked about this as a talk of the thrones, but there are multiple times inside this episode when a character sort of concedes the other side of an argument, and I think that's really interesting, but I think about what's going on with Missoria here is she goes for a slightly physically aggressive move, not what I would do in front of a queen's guard, found you lacking as you point out. - Shocking, yeah. - But later and sort of, so I mean this all complimentary, but like when Sylvie says like once a whore, always a whore essentially to her, Missoria, Missoria then using the skills of a sex worker, which is like identify what your client, your target, whatever the case may be, wants, and give it to them, right? - Frankly, a lesson for Renera could stand to learn. - And so, you know, she said, she calls her. are lacking. And elsewhere in the season, Damon said to Ranera, and you noted this in Plain English, shouted in the sept, you're better than this. Ranera, right? But Ranera, who may or may not have a praise kink, does not want to hear that. No, that's not going to help after all. She needs words of affirmation. Yes. Again, I reject the, well, this will be on a different podcast, but the love language concept is flawed. But Ranera needs to be flattered and cajoled, as Sylvie mentioned. And so this, this is the, you're talking about pivoting. This is what I'm sorry, it does a good pivot inside of the set. Sure. Sure. You know, it was from like, he thinks less of you to be like, I, but I know you are worth it. You're doing great. No, we're not here there. You're crushing it. Let's fuck. I thought that the way Missaria, like, adjusted from the past and also connected back to it in this episode was, was pretty fascinating to watch. And Damon is obviously for Ranera and Missaria, character who unlocks so much of that for both of them. I liked when Missaria asked, is there anything Damon could do that you would truly not believe? Because the conversation that that brought to mind to me was one between Damon and Ranera about Allisant back on Driftmark and the end season one episode seven. I do not believe Allisant capable of cold murder. Damon replies, each of us is capable of depravity more than he would believe to which Ranera replied, I believe it of you. So this idea that again, in trying to point out how the other person vying for affection is not to be trusted, it comes back on you to be clear Damon straight up murdered his wife. So, you know, just something I think about in the veil. It's not an unjust act. It's not unjust accusation. I mean, so much of the blood in the story is on Damon's hands. One in cheese. We've got notes. We've got notes. Missaria also involved in that. Yes. Well, that's there's a lot of hypocrisy from Missaria too. Everyone. All of them fucking best. The best. It's all good to hear and all I have some dream therapy. Tell me what you thought about this Sylvie Missaria scene, which we should know, it takes place while Ranera is gone. Right. So we have, I would say, where are the cats in this episode? Great question. Great question. I mean, busy chasing the rats, but I have not seen nearly enough of them. We have no reason to believe, I would say, no reason to believe. Other than maybe earlier in the season, Ranera being like, do it in the way only you can. No reason to believe that Missaria positioning herself in the fucking throne room as Ranera's proxy is sanctioned by Ranera. Old? Yeah. Real stunting for your farmer co-worker to just sort of like, to show them how good you have it now. Yeah. And Sylvie calls her out for it. She does. As we mentioned on Talk the Thrones, to me, this felt like a real various and little finger talking about the realm in front of the Iron Throne sort of moment. This idea of like the manipulators, the strivers, the whisperers inside of this room. I don't know how Sylvie is being characterized. Like, you know, she's done, you know, some schooled-duggery for Missaria, but she's also being kind of positioned as this like true voice of true voice people. True voice people. Yeah. Yes. Which I think is interesting. And I don't think either of that really exists between various and little fingers. So it's not a clean comp, but still just like these two non-royals standing in front of the Iron Throne and an empty throne room cannot help, but remind us of that scene and, you know, cast as a ladder. I mean, time is all. The fall is all, you know, sort of things. Different scene obviously, but Varis at least gives us the realm someone must energy that someone must create stuff. No, Varis claims to be, but like, is anyone really? And that's obviously part of what the show is interested in. You know, I was thinking back to Missaria saying to Damon in real peak. What is this accent? Season one episode two territory when they absconded with the dragon egg Damon did to Dragon's stone back in the power duo Syrax. Yeah, I'm sorry. He's just ride dragon back with it. That's right. Got on and got on and cracks these. Do you think Ranero will take her on a ride on Syrax? It's entirely possible. Anytime we talk about like riding dragons as a sexual event makes me think of Jorah to all try the dragon. Well, but also. And plenty of people pointing this out. Sylvie wrote the dragon that is Aiman. That's right. Sorry. I wrote the dragon that is Damon once again. Well, for a while there. And then tough. It was like, but she did have everyone. She did is the point. So yes, these two women have fucked. Yes, the dark mirror. Yes. You are Targaryen. This is what Missaria said to Damon in season one episode two. You can afford to play your stupid games with the king, but I cannot. I didn't come into your service when gold or power or station. I came to you to be liberated, liberated from what fear. And I think that when Missaria says that there, it doesn't mean there's no like striver element to her character at that point, but there's a sense there much as like we've talked about earlier in the season. I think when Missaria committed pledged herself to Ranero and said like you, I think, are steadfast, that felt sincere. And then it's another character's version of, well, what does that proximity to power? Well, I got one week at the White Lotus and I'm hooked like when Sylvie's like, look at what you're wearing a year. Oh, that's still because a year of my salary. I mean, those massages. What are you going to do? It's wonderful. Listen, wonderful. Missaria had an escape. And then it was the cargo ball that brought her back to Ranero. They've contributed so much. Some sort of, you know, loyalty there to Ranero. There's genuinely something there. Along with, I would say, ambition is driving. I believe there's genuinely like a rutabaga at every pot sort of energy from Missaria. Oh, yeah. No question. But it has its limits. I mean, in part of the ambition, part of the striver is like, choose me. So those things aren't, they don't feel to me like you're exclusive from each other. Yeah, crazy. Not every time. I've never seen a second of crazy. I mean, I've seen a second of it because I don't worry. I know. Never seen a full episode. To your question about like Sylvie and the positioning, I think we are getting. Will it hold? Who knows? Because does it hold for anyone? But so far, it feels like we are getting a more entrenched and sincere. I actually am going to stand for the small folk and stick with that than we've gotten from other characters. Thinking back to the aim and cuddle fest, you know, it's a small folk like me who suffer into challenging Ranero at the petition of like, remember who got you here? It's always been, we've not actually really had a sequence with Sylvie that wasn't about that other than the first little eyebrow raising waggle at aim and you know. So I'd give the same note that I would give to the writing of Alan, which is like, let's slightly diversify if this is a character that's going to stick around and be used in season four, which it might be like. Well, this time we got the the throw and reminds me of a hundred buying cocks, like give her a cat or something, you know, a pet. Maybe that's where all the cats are. Okay. Maybe there was Sylvie and we'll find out. That would be great. She had a lot of milk there. Oh god, great stuff. Um, you are changed. This has changed you. That's what Sylvie says to Missaria. Obviously, Sylvie had a dragon. She'd melt the throne down. No question. No question. I know what that throne does to people. I know. But then what would Drogon have done later? You know, how would you fill this calendar? It's true. Remember that? I do. Just wild. Let's just keep talking about the other game. Oh, man. Um, Renera, receiving Damon. I love this move. I love the move to keep a Linda Massey there because your favorite character. Uh, I do love a Linda Massey. Um, but I think I think I am always nervous about a Linda Massey. I am worried that she is reporting to Missaria. I think all of that is something that's on my mind. Yep. And she might have inside of this episode, which might have helped Missaria in her tactics at the end of this episode. So that's all possible. But Renera, keeping a Linda there to be like, you're not going to decmitize me, Damon, like you can't, you know, you can't control. You can't seduce me into agreeing with you or forgiving you or whatever. This is not going to end with a tumble. You can chop my cheek, but nothing else. That's it. Did you think there was any element of wanting to like shame him by making him declare these very private things with a witness or even just the proximity of someone who she trusts or was it all, I kind of feel like Damon would shout. We're not going to fuck our way out. Yes. That was what I read in it too. Um, the tenderness on display from Damon here. Again, this is Matt Smith's reading of this character that he like genuinely loves Renera, that he's a real lover boy. Did you see the photo of Jamie Kebel Bauer for "Bring the Power" that was circulating and how much he looked like Gwayne High Tower in his armor? And the hair is like identical. Gwayne Core. I mean, can he high kick his ass over? I was just going to say I can't wait to see him jump off a horse and reference something that I don't remember from the episode and didn't see the meme of, but can't wait. I'll show you later. But um, the uh, yeah, the lover boy, the lover boy era for Damon. This is sincere. He is being genuinely sincere. It is hard for me to fully understand this character pivot, but I am intrigued by it. I love it. I think that Damon is the, you know, and George is stated. I'm paraphrasing, but like, favorite character because of the complexities. I'm contradiction in the human heart show. To some, he is the blackest villain that ever existed. It's the only thing worth writing about. Yeah. And to others. And so I like that all of these things are in the in the brew with Damon. Um, on the, this is when it in Renera is like what, from what, what do you think I am? I like that later, when Ranera goes to Massaria, there's a rationality on display. He didn't, he wasn't trying to hurt me. He was trying to help and protect his daughter. - That's what I'm saying about, yeah, people concerned. - Carrying that, yeah. But in this moment, there's no embrace. There's no path to reconciliation, because the hurt is so deep, for a lot of reasons, but this feels like top among them. What do you think I am? - Yes. - What does it mean if all the people close to me in my life? - Alison's like, Alison, think I'm gonna kill babies. - So babies, yeah. - Or their daughters, like, what a mirror for Ranera to have to hold up to herself here. It's just like, fine, you paint me a villain, I'll be a villain. But like, I think just so high on the list of Ranera's complaints here, honestly, or I don't know, hi, but it's on, it's well at the list, is embarrassment? - Sure. - About all the time she spent staring at this skull that was just a random goat hurt her skull. - Yeah. - You lied to me, I believed you, and every night I looked at that and thought I got my vengeance. - You made a fool of me, I just stared at a skull that belonged to a stranger because you duped me. How fucking mortifying. - Yeah, you're right. - Yeah. - Only to me worth it for the payoff of seeing Ranera pick up the skull. - Oh, you're gonna draft her. - And hurl it into the center of the fucking strike zone. I was like, or aspirational. - Unlike me, Ranera has her. - How do you work it on your pitch? - Okay, let me tell you this. I was gonna text you guys over the weekend and I was too ashamed. I did go this weekend for the first time, even though it is already August, out to a park. I told you Adam and I had done a little light like with a little foam training ball, just kind of working on some mechanics, went out with an actual ball for the first time. I would say that I have neither the arm strength nor the accuracy nor the mechanical predictability necessary to deliver a successful first pitch in two weeks, but I do have an unbelievable amount of pain in my shoulder, since then. So we'll see when I'm ready to get back out there, but it's been humbling and Ranera is in this way and perhaps this way, I don't make her at least firing me to a different course. - Tough one, really tough one. - Ranera can't sleep, she tosses the skull and she goes and seeks out Messiah. - This episode is a real one for a bunch of different images that really confused us in the trailer. The Helena giving birth scene. - The skull in the fireplace where we were like, "Who's skull is that?" - But those are still two and three on the list after the burning, the bonfire of the bed. - Oh, that was an all-time check. - Please frame up, it's been moment. - I went through the complete blueprint of the red keep. - And every time we did shoot for an charm at this place, I know. It was amazing. - Oh, man. - Trailer breakdowns. They're really good for our mental health. - Oh god, great stuff. - Anyway, Helena, well, we did guess in the trailer that Helena giving birth would might be a dream, but I did think it was Amon's dream in Harrenhal. - Yeah, which I liked that thing. - But this is Helena's dream, and then the skull we just were wrong on nine different kinds. - I don't remember what we said. - I think we were like, "Jeez." I could say that now. It's still the worst way. Sorry, that made me so scared. - Jeez. - It was J's. (laughing) - Terrified. - We can say that. - We thought it might be J's. - That's right. - Yeah. - Yeah. - There was a theory going around that it was viseruses like moldering head that had just been like laying around somehow. I don't know. - Man. - I would have gotten rid of all of the viseruses. - I would have gotten rid of all the viseruses. - I would have gotten rid of all the viseras. - Exactly, it says the thing she's doing then does it completely. - I just tell you what you want to hear. - I would just say this. For the first fucking time. Thank you, Renera's like, you know what? - Yeah. - Being like viseras. - Not great, actually. - I'm interested, it was a heartening to hear. I'm interested to see if Renera can kind of bridge and make your policy basically have viseras ran the kingdom. While still holding on to the actual important lessons invoked as we talked about by Helena in this episode, like let's mind our histories. Something, something, drag, and solutions of control, et cetera. We've talked about it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - She shouldn't lose sight of that part of it. That would be working. - Yeah, no baby with the bath water. - Exactly. - And then, massage, like I know what you need, baby. Your poise for victory. It's going to be kind of familiar language. This is what Damon said. It was real like, you know, empire and our children will rule it forever in a day. Don't worry, you're going to be queen. Your kids, they're going to rule. Do you think I'm worthy in this moment, my queen? - Renera. - Familiar. - I have never. - Familiar in a better way than in the arm grab in the hallway. This is intimacy. - Yeah. - And proximity of a welcome. - Form. And then they fuck. Which kind of like, oh, sexily pushes her down on the chase. I'm going to say I thought we were going to get a little, a little more in the same. Then we got, oh well. - Oh well. - Oh well. - That was the dragon chaser show that Game of Thrones was, right? I mean, no question. Yeah, no question. We got a lot of gold cloak dong earlier this season. Obviously, we had bowels of the pleasure done. We've had some stuff. Sounds good. - Let's head to Herinal. - Why not? - Hellicent, amen, Alice, incest, dreams. It's all happening. - Very weird for them to describe it as a love triangle in the inside the episode. Did you not think so? - Hellicent is amen's mother. - Yeah. I wouldn't call it once again. Perhaps a hinge. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Because there's no reciprocity from Alison to amen. - Correct. - So we're clear. - Only in his dreams. That's the first real. This is a dream and not reality. Clue is that our boy Ayman slides right in. Mom was ready and waiting. Fantasy. Our listener, Maria wrote it to say, "Not amen practicing with black fire like a Westerosie George Michael Bluth that is lightsaber." Incredible. Westerosie George Michael Bluth is just elite. Great shit. Guys, stop as if you've heard this before. Targaryen's second son, who is hold up at Herinal, is dreaming of fucking his mom. And the similarities are pretty detailed and specific. Carlos. Can we see this clip? - If only it had been born fast. My favorite son. How could I forsake my best? A truest son. The city is born and named. You are what I have left. - I really admire the series long Damon Damon comps not only extending to Herinal, Mommy, and Sess streams, but specifically tell you're my best and favorite boy. - Was that a fun clip to play right on the heels, me being like, "This show isn't as hardy as Game of Thrones?" - That's right. - But we should say that when. I mean, whatever. When Damon and Allison tumble into bed and then later it's Alice, it's still not the like, like people keep their clothes on in this show. - Yeah. - It's not the same thing that Thrones was. And I don't know for a better or worse. I don't know. - We get the subtler version here. You know, Alice saying later, "Are you Targaryen?" Will he still want the same thing? Don't you? To fuck your mom. Tell us the song we need to know. I was slightly disturbed in this episode by how like tenderly I felt toward Damon, given what we were witnessing in this episode. - Just thought he was like quite sweet. - Was it his core at finding out he wasn't fucking his mom? - That's what did it. - Yeah, that's what did it. - Can I please read this sentence you wrote into this work document? - Sure. - Yeah. - Yeah, go for it. - Damon is pulled out phrasing of this Wherewood fantasy by Alice, draining that dragon jizz spout, proclaiming in this moment I will give you a son. - Uh-huh. - And is that not what happened? Spot the lie as the dragon jizz spout. - Yeah, he was in the peak of his pleasure, you know? She wants the dragon seed. What can we say? We're just covering the show that they give us. I got a reel in from in this moment I will give you a son when we flip out of the dream into Alice on top there. Real like Melisandre Stanis. - Yeah. - My question is, - I will give you a son, my king. - Is she gonna make smoke babies? - That's the thing. Is the whatever's gonna happen here? Be of like the magical variant? - If Alice makes a smoke baby, I'm gonna lose my mind. It'll be very exciting. - Smokey rolled, so that would be pretty fun. - I know, and all that dragon's blood? - Be great. - Be great. - All that king's blood? That's what I meant to say, but dragon's blood also. - Well, one of the same, you know. - Damon shuffles off, he's very spooked. - He's like, "Oh no, I'm not fucking my mom!" - That was baby! It's the consenting woman I'm not related to. - How weird. - And then he is stumbling through the hallways. And then there she is. Alice and wearing, as you noted. - The exact same clothing. - So what does your read on the magic that we're witnessing here? - Right. - Is this what Alan Hammer is? - I don't know, she, when he walks away from her, when he's like, "You, you're not my mom." - She's like, "What have you seen?" - She's like, "What have you seen?" And in a way that like, I don't think she's lying. - I thought we moved from uncertainty there into the certainty later, if we're saying she's trying to hurt you. - Right, and so, but like, what have you seen? - Yeah. - Tells me that that was an Alice wearing an Alice in Glamour. That was-- - The werewood paste in the bridge. - Amen, like his brain elsewhere, Alice having sex with him, thinking he's present maybe, and he's not, his brain isn't a different plane, having sex with his mom, oops. And then she's just like, "Yeah, what did you see?" - Right. - That's what I think. - Yeah. - She's like, at least when Damon snapped too, he was having dinner, not fucking me. - He was eating. - He sure was. - He sure was. - But I think that, so I think, Amon ingesting wherewood, Iowaska, or sleeping in the werewood bed, wherewood tree bed, or where the case may be. Ironhall is sending him some shit. But some of it is like, you know, he saw his mother, all right. - Like the near term prophecy of that imminent arrival, down to, you know, as we get to in a subsequent scene, like the mirroring of cupping his face, saying you're all I have left, which when that happens in the next sequence, he like shakes her off and is so disturbed because it is neat for beat. - Would he just witness? - It was funny, 'cause I was like, oh no, when this is unfolding, and I was watching this episode, I was like, oh no, how is Allison going to execute her assassination plan? There's no way he's going to trust her after he was spooked by this dream. But then he kind of like kind of did, pretty easily. - Well, he loves her and wants to fuck her. - And she's like, let me tell you that I made you your favorite childhood drink so that you feel my love, and then I'm going to poison you very tough. - It's not warm milk, spiced wine. - I know. - He really regressed into the warm milk later in life. He, you know, on your, what is he receiving from the Heron, the magic of Heron Hall front? - He does give another donation to the blood, of blood in this episode. - Yeah, right, for blood in the God's wood, right? It's the roots, yeah, again. So, Amen is making his deposits, and being rewarded by his deposits. So, he uses the dagger of prophecy here. Our listener, Allison, wrote in about, this is actually more about like what, or while I heard it at the small council meeting. - Mm-hmm. - And Sabbath Frey and Tour of Manorly as Mallory noted. - Allison wrote, "What is more likely?" So, the question we've been asking from the beginning, just a refresher, is how does a song of ice and fire, the prophecy of Aegon Targaryen, make its way to Rhaegar Targaryen, who is the key person to whom it is downloaded in the continuity of the Game of Thrones story. Is it past, like because we've been, you know, because of certain things that happen along the Targaryen line, we're just like, "Did this go cleanly down the line?" Was it lost somewhere and recovered? Certainly the dagger of prophecy was lost somewhere. Along the way. And so, Allison said, "What is more likely?" Rhaegar accidentally reading the cat's paw dagger after Gandalfing it out of the fire. - Take it. - It's quite cool. - Or finding someone like Frey or Manorly's diary and reading about the crazy shit Damon said in the council meeting. We know they live a good gossip session, really, who doesn't. After all the quote is about Rhaegar, quote, "He found something in his scrolls," end quote, which we've been assuming for four years means the dagger. - Yes. - Well, what if it actually was a scroll or record? Now I know there's the or while of it all, but here's where we connect my crackpot theory to other crackpot theories. There's this grand maester conspiracy idea. I think it's fair to say outside of this boiler section, this idea that, like, was it the maesters who sort of are ultimately responsible for there being no dragons by the time that Daenerys Targaryen is born? So we know there are no dragons at some point. No dragons by the time Daenerys Targaryen are there. No dragons, so that's not a spoiler. - Just puppets. - Just saying. That's not a spoiler. There are no dragons. So there's this crackpot theory that the maesters were somehow involved in that. The grand maester conspiracy sort of thing. - Yep. - Or while as a maester. So if he's one of the maesters working to take down the Targarys, then of course he wouldn't record a prophecy about how essential the Targarys are to the world. Because if that info got out, then people would want to keep all those blondes around. So I don't know. Did Oral not a source in Fire and Blood because of the maesters' conspiracy? - The fact that it assumes that that's true though. - Right. - Yeah. - That the maester conspiracy is true? - Yeah. - Yeah, which you don't buy into. - I don't think the show should be putting a scene like that out into the world, assuming that everyone will receive it in a logical coherent fashion because they all believe the grand maester dragon death conspiracy. - And then what do you think about, what about that random rocker? What do you think about Rhaegar, reading XOXO, gossip girl, tournamentally is account of what happened in small council meeting? - That is certainly fun to think about and the idea that somebody else jotted something down and then it made it to Rhaegar. I feel like based on what we have received in this show, the dagger is still the most likely scroll stand in. But mostly because like the disconnect and some of this is just the nature of gardening - I also just don't think there's enough information on the dagger to convey the fullness of the. - There's a decent amount when they, when Viseras and Ranera put it in the little. - Well then. - Brasier thing, how every pronounce that word and let it. The, I don't know, I just fire and blood, the oral thing aside, too many accounts from too many sources make their way into fire and blood. - From my blood comes a prince that was promised and with it the will of ice and fire. What the fuck does that mean? If you don't have other information, the will of ice and fire. What does that mean? The will of ice and fire. - Yeah. - From my blood comes the prince that was promised is like Rhaegar's line though. But what does that mean? Maybe he went and found some other facts. - I'm torn in the end. - From a scroll. - I just don't see how if those scrolls exist, they don't make it, it's a sloppy scene. No one will convince me otherwise. I'm standing on, I'm standing on my take here. Sorry. (laughs) It doesn't make sense that Damon said that in front of that many people, it's nuts. It's not a logical thing for the character to have done. And as you noted, it's not logical for nobody to ask a follow-up question. It just isn't. It doesn't make sense. - You think it makes sense? - I don't disagree. I think it's interesting to think about. - Sure. Sure. - If Orwell was working for the Grandmaster Conspiracy and one day the show clarifies that for us, I'll happily recant the take, happily. When Eam and Stabs are one week, right through the chin, gross. It's like, sorry mom, there's a lot of stuff going on here and I can't have strangers know about it. Alice is obviously horrified. Or Alison is obviously horrified. Their names are very similar, deliberately. And then Alice comes out and she's like, let's have dinner. And not since either Cyril and Dedra and Andorre, have I been so wrapped watching an awkward dinner as I was watching this scene? This was incredible. Alice is kind of testing Alison about the cover story of oh, the road's dangerous. Maybe this also primes us for a fraught road back from Alison. We mentioned on top of this. - But also, if she's like, oh, it was just the two of us. - Right. - Yeah. And there were other people in the last four, at the end of the part, episode. So are they waiting or are they hiding? - They just down the road behind a tree. - Maybe there are a lot of trees there. - Yeah. - And a lot of rubble. - It's like when old I've had a murder. - I'm hiding just around the corner at the gods eye with three dragons. - Exactly. - That's where the men are. - Maybe they're in the exactly that spot. - Yeah. - Alison's like, tell me about your meet cute. And Aiman says, she saved my life. And who's behest your lords? And Alice says, baller, I generally follow my own dictates incredible stuff. And Alice is like, what? I still never understand who this woman is. She is a lady and a maester of sorts. Stark contrast, that description, Aiman's of Alice, to what Aiman said in the Heron Hall hand wave sequence, right? The crown is on the habit of giving out castles to midwives. And as midwife, the sum of what you think I am, once again, getting what she needs out of Aiman in a way that she didn't with Aiman. Well, yeah, they weren't consummating their weird dynamic. - Come on in. - Listen, here's a question I have. How much of Alison's like, I mean, she's frustrated, and she's flustered, and she's like, God, I gotta pivot on this assassination plan. And what do I do and all of this? But like, how much is her of her fluster comes from Alice saying, I do what I want. And Alice is being like, never heard of it. - I'm experiencing it. - Never heard of it. - Jealousy. - What are you talking about? Jealousy in both directions for different reasons is tantalizing, certainly, you know? And they're all, as always, like, completely destabilized by their dynamics, because Aiman goes from this position of real confidence, kind of a fun and her and all of this house of visions. He's almost like dispensing prophecies when he's talking about Vernier's baseball and writers and how she'll certainly fail. And Nudon is coming, a new line of unsullied kings. But then he's got to throw a temper tantrum and pow at when Alice is like, we need wood, right? Cass is played aside. So they're moving in and out of these different circumstances of kind of like behavior, but also Aiman. - Yeah, hypocrisy corner. Let's come live here, okay? - Sure. - The baseball and dragonwriters, right? He's fucking a woman that he's not married to. So like Aiman was like high on his horse about the strong boys, right? The bastard, right? - Sure. - Yeah. - The son's a bastard, right? Like he's, so like, if Alice is pregnant and they're not married, that's a bastard, right? But he calls, yeah. but he calls her a lady, you know? Did they get married? Maybe? Who was their witness? The Blime Butter Turner? Yeah, Blime Butter Turner. What if it was the goat? Is he not a targ tower? Does he not want to get married under the, like, you know, the old, the religious-- This is part of being undrived. And the list of thrall is too see things. Well, this is what I'm saying. So he's fathering bastards. He's siring bastards. Off a woman of dubious parentage. So it's just sort of like, I'm for it. Of course. But I've never been the one running around being a targ as a pharmacist. Well, you know-- He's benefiting from her and all therapy, as you said. Even like the way he-- I mean, it's definitely weird when he says to his mother-- Unsullied Kings. I mean, sure. Yeah. Unsullied Kings, born off of this-- Again, I love Alice. I love that she's a witch. I love everything about her. She should have children if she wants or not, if she doesn't. But, like, unsullied Kings, what are you talking about? Even just the saying that we'll raise our throne here in the mud, like leaning in and embracing the muck of it all. The moment with Alice, when he was, like, you take her hand, you know, and you have something left to give. Still, I got real, like, if Egg on the Conqueror could have-- Yeah. Two sister wives. Why can't I have my maester lady wife and my mom-- My wife? My mom wife. Like, that was, like, you can give me a-- That's what I-- A son vibes, too. And then the fact that he-- It was on the evolution of Amon Front. That's a real contrast to the dismissal when he became region. When he cast her out of the council-- I really disagree. You have nothing left to give. I really disagree. Because he's, like, you have nothing politically here. And here he's, like, your womb. I forgot your womb is still ripe. He did say in that scene, you have-- Go domestic pursuits. But-- Because they have cast sons who are the same age as already a cook. Yes. Very strange. Despite the distinction between the domestic and the political. Because you're right. He's not embracing her mind here. No. It is still, like, a-- He's not coming by my hand of the king. No. No. No. But he is, like, I need you. And in the region, he was in such a pit of insecurity that he was, like, anyone who knows me. Kristen, who knew me and saw what I did, gone. Harren Hall. My mother, who knows me, and knows my unique qualities cast out. Right? Here's my other question. Do you think, Allison, when she heard, like, this idea of Alice getting pregnant or whatever? She's, like, a mother. She's, like, don't have to kill her, too. You know, because, like, if her land is pregnancy is a threat-- Yeah. --and reminded me of the-- one of my favorite lines, and almost famous, "When Fruisable," who gives real Alice energy, by the way? Sure. When she's talking about the new band-aids, the new groupies, and she says they don't use birth control, and they eat all the steak. I really feel like that's, like, Allison, just, like, can my sons stop fucking women and putting inconvenient heirs in them? I would appreciate it. I'm trying to murder people. But she doesn't actually care about that. That's when Neera's outcome. She's just started to execute it, so she can say I did the thing you wanted. No, I know, but then when Neera-- - And then when you'd be petrified. - And then when you'd be petrified. These scenes did really work for me. I think that when sometimes a story is engineering and outcome in a way that doesn't make sense, that's like frustrating. The scenes we got as a result, like clearly that decision was made so that Helena and Ranera could have their sequences without Allison to present. And so that we could get these Allison, Amen, and Alice moments, those scenes all worked and were all good. Does it feel completely right to me still that Ranera made the choice to send Allison to do this and that Allison even trapped Helena held as hostage lover just she was, went and actually tried to do it. Like, no, not really, but the scenes worked. - Well, you're, I guess I would slightly push back on your question of like, how could Alison believe that Ranero would keep any promise? I think she has to tell herself that there is some chance in her desperation, she has to believe that there is some chance that if she does this, Ranero will let them go. - And I think that she's using her logical brain, of course not, but she's using her desperation back in the corner, oops, we trapped ourselves in a tunnel and didn't get anywhere brain, you know? - Totally, and I think even the, to like the question I was posting earlier, like why not maybe like give it a go with Amant here? There's the, you know, the Allison's own voice in my head from the sept scene in season two, like it's too late for Nierra, and to be pulled out of that, try to make a pledge together, and then kind of fall back into it, feels very human, and certainly her window in the wall of her prison is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, not like burst wide open. - Right. - Whereas Alice has like never been in a prison in my life. Babe, never heard of walls. - Or has she been imprisoned in this human form the whole time? - A little burn out pet. - When Alice is like, I don't think the climate agrees with your mother. - Great stuff. - I really felt that because they're, you know what? - Sure. - She's got those curls and they would probably freeze in Heron Hall where it's always raining. - Send her back to Old Town with her rule. - I feel like real girls' girl energy. - Yeah, for sure. - Yeah, for sure. - Baby, you don't wanna stay here. - For sure. - Your hair is gonna frizz out. (sighs) Incredible stuff. Amen, we need one! It was just so entertaining. It really was, it was great. The Woodpile. - My future art did not include your mother. - I kindly. - I really, that was an amazing scene because she's like, you know, my designs. Just again, much like the cops across characters, That's like, I'm telling you the thing I'm doing, but it feels good and it's what you want in a way, so you'll let me do it. Like the Missaria Renera comp. I do enjoy that the Woodpile is where Alice invoked Damon's mommy fucking dreams last season it felt good to be back there. She weren't Damon to be cautious and he's like enough here, enough here nonsense. She's my blood, which is fascinating given what Damon has done to his blood. Like why would that matter? As Alice says, why would it matter? but this is a guy who, again, you have to believe like eight Luke and you had to strike any Luke didn't want to regret it, but he's his brother. He's dying to believe that his mother thinks he's his, he's her number one boy. Yep. She comes in, she's like spice, no hot milk, spice wine for you. Yep. And he like says, I'm really sorry about Aegon. Like I feel really bad about it. And so this is once again, Heron Hall therapy, it works. - I feel very sad. - Both Amin and Damon, you know, saying sorry, saying please, saying, I feel bad about this. I've done all this shit, and I feel bad about it. We are characters on mirrored arcs, have you noticed? - Yes. - But Amin has been more repentant the whole time. It just hasn't helped. - Not the whole time, just like-- - In and out of it. - When mommy figures are around that you might want to find. - Yes. - Exactly. - He's really ready to open up. - If he's not potentially mirrored with them, then he can say it. - I do feel sorry about that. - Oh man. - She was paying attention when Helena gave her botany lesson. - That's right. - She has poised in the spice wine. So this is the payoff of the night shade that we were curious about. - I had no idea how that was gonna be. - We had some theories in the spoiler section. We were wrong. We had no idea this was coming. Gives in the spice wine. - She does still look very-- - Oh. - Meaningfully at the dagger though. - She's like, what the fuck does that cast by dagger say? - Oh. - The Sarah's blood comes to her mind. - The phrase that was promised in his will be the song of Ice and Fire, what does that mean? And then he, and then he's like motor by motor I mean Alice and he's like help me again once again stumbling on her feet Yes, once again the comedy of in her hand, and she's like you idiot. Let me go to my You got it very unconcerned. Oh, very unconcerned my antidote table. Um, and but will he not be all the more bonded to her? She was right. Uh-huh. Alison's leaving He's gonna be all the more putty in Alice's hands now. Yeah - So full leaders work for you from your family. - I mean, Alice would be wonderful. - Oh, sign me up, they won. - Very powerful. - Again. - Baptism by fire, your face. - My goodness. - Just thought these scenes were great, dynamite. So first the return to works are asked. Our boys are out on horses. And the rotus blocked Joe. A little comedy before this with the Valentine wine bit. I loved this, you know, if you mean to console me for this folly, Thailand's like did. I've seen the monkeys, I've mud-resolved. I have fucked admiral wives. A little Valentine wine is not gonna compel me to say this is a good idea, but Egon is steadfast. The masses start blocking the road with word that the mutants are coming. Initially, Egon's like, how could they have heard of me? And then we realize, silent. Coralysis tip put into action. - That we never saw the handoff of the information. - No. - So this happened quickly. - So this happened to me off of that weird line Coral is like, B.T. Dubs. - Yes. - Thailand has been seen near Rook's rest. So, Ranera, Sensum, folks. - Yes. - To go get Thailand to hopefully get the Monet. - That's right. Our boys come across Tom Tangle, Tong, our guy. And he shares the Thailand and gold specific detail. And then Laira says, like, Thailand, here's what you should do, you should turn yourself over. - Yep. - You should turn yourself over. And that's why she's gonna flame me. And Laira's just like, yeah, no doubt. That was the best part. He didn't try to tell you. And he's like, yeah. But it's the right thing to do for your king. Just no shame from Lyra, which is great stuff. And I got on it's like, you guys are free to go. Do what you must, but I am gonna stay. I'm gonna make my stand. I'm gonna be buried as a king with my dragon. say that I was slain in ignominy by my own. Brothers. So this is Egon's own little version of they will sing songs about it, right? Yeah. Thailand stays. Larist departs. Where are you on your boy, Larist right now? I mean, his survival instincts are just tough guys. Egon's a piece of shit, so why would I try to get myself murdered for Egon? There's no reason to. And when he says like, it will be my duty to see that the king Egon is remembered. His heroic last hours immortalized through story and song your grace. This line that you keep quoting, which is amazing. It's just so funny. It reminded me of this line from one of my favorite musicals, Into the Woods, when there's a giant stomping around in the forest. And Cinderella's stepmother is like running away and the other characters are like, what the fuck are you doing? And Cinderella's stepmother says, some people are cut out to battle giants and others are not. I don't have the constitution. And as long as I can be of no help, I'm going to hide. Everything will work out fine in the end. I know, there's like classic layers. There's a layer like some people are built for this. I am not. And as long as I can't help, I'm going to hide. Bye. Incredible. Very on brand. Also like appealing to Egon. What Egon actually voiced to him a little bit in season two during their bonding sequences. Just like, oh, the Egon, the realms delight. The desire for to be remembered fondly. Larist knows that that's important to Egon. And so the spin job of positioning it that way. I'm abandoning you. But in order to ensure the outcome that you won, it does things like that. Don't worry. A master class, honestly. Great stuff. Very amusing when Thailand sells swords like we're out. He's kind of right. I'm not even saying bye. No big speeches from them. I'm just actually like quite surprised that Thailand stuck around. Yeah, it was fascinating. Like, it's still a really interesting thing for him to do. It is. We've always been team Thailand Lannister here on this podcast. Literally never. Not until we were like, he looks pretty hot. Taking a grave. That was the first time. It happened quickly. Life comes at your face. I was like, that guy's definitely dead. And now I'm like, oh, interesting. We're all fiber. It is fun that, you know, the choice that Egon made last week to side with Larist to go to Essos. We were really processing that as intended is Thailand failed the test, right? That Larist passed. I'm like, I'll tell you the truth now. But so immediately for the Thailand to be like, I'm the one who will stand with you. It was surprising. Sunfire. Little bonfire for two. Egon, Thailand, hanging out. Campfire looked lovely. Honestly, and then the Mootans arrive. And we have been, I think it is fair to say, impatiently waiting for us to be talking, pod after pod in the spoiler section since post-rux rest. So middle of society. It's not a storytelling issue. We just didn't know how to talk about a dragon that we definitely knew was still alive. And the show was like, and genuinely they're like, how long is this going to remain mystery? And the answer was a season and a half. I mean, Chris earlier was like, there's no way Sunfire is still alive. What you guys are talking about. Like, we didn't spoil it for him, but we were like being cagey about it. And he's like, no, that dragon's dead. It's been so long. Napping. We did get an email from Jonathan who said, first of all, Sunfire 8, those carnies was a subject line. Great. Sunfire was dragon napping, or maybe brew mating like real world reptiles, which is a word I learned new to me. But reptiles, I guess, will sort of like that's their version of hibernating. When he woke up, he had to be hungry. So he roasted those carnies who were selling dragon rides for a coin. I hope so. I hope he ate those guys. Burned him and ate them. I hope he crisped them up. But yeah, Sunfire was just sort of like chilling, woken up by true love's kiss by agon murmuring to him, perhaps. Agon, you know, he knew. He felt it. My boy, I'm here, right? He's alive. Was it the bleeder? Was it the Janus blood on the scale that sort of woke him up, you know? Agon's kingly stand here. I won't cower and run and hide. Van was telling me earlier that Coleca cried, which I love this story, that Coleca cried when Sunfire showed up. Like that at first, it was like, is it vagar? Is it like what's happening here? You know, it could have been vagar. That's right. Like if people were watching, they're like, oh my god, vagar who's been missing, long in the missing has shown up to like, help agon or something like that. No, it is. Or burn him. The golden boy himself. Sweet Sunfire are twins now. With their twin, their twin burns and injuries. The way that Agon before he hears Sunfire and he heard him less quickly, everyone else. He was very much committed to this. One of these ears is melted. That's true. That's true. He has a whole great, you know, we talked about on Talk to the Thrones this kind of second coronation, the mirroring images of the arms. Why, but even the way he's describing himself, titling and styling himself, right? It was also making me think of Daenerys. Arms three. Yeah. Three baby dragons. Absolutely. Absolutely. The thing he says at the end of this declaration is the through line of this episode. Obviously, in many ways, also the series because it dates back to Alicent and Raniera and the eye for an eye scene. Now they see it as you truly are. For now, you see me as I truly am. Dreadful inventions, righteous and glorious. Similar language will be invoked in the Ormond. All conversation at the end of the episode. So this is very much an episode for like, what is the true version of me? What do I do with that? How do people receive it? The two golden princes. But it's just so funny. Now melted. I know, but it's so funny to watch this scene because, you know, in dorge fashion and whatever fashion, it's such a demented twisted version of this because like, you know, the Mad King areas vibes coming off of him in this sequence, which we'll watch in a second is undeniable. But it's just sort of like, if people are falling egg on on the road and Connell said this in behind the scene, like, people will be surprised by how much they're rooting for egg on here. And we've talked about this. We're like, character on an arc, growth, stuff like that. Chris, I'm talking to those who are like, I'm in. I'm not. I have not forgotten when egg on is done. Absolutely. But it's just sort of like, oh, like, and then he just like murders a bunch of people. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah. This great power that the dragon house has been given, this unbeatable weapon. We got a great email from a listener who was comparing sort of like, Kristen Cole's last stand to egg on's last stand. And what's like, all the cons between them, the fact that they were like both scarred at Rook's rest in their own way, both had to sort of like, travel in Cognito without, you know, the power and support they were used to having. And both took this sort of like, absolutely demented vinyl go out and sort of a blazer glorious stand. But egg on has this dragon weapon, but he is not worthy of a W&D. Some of us. I thought this sequence was thrilling to watch, but ultimately tear on fire. I don't think we disagree. I'm just saying like, it's so interesting that he's rewarded. Sure. In this moment with this like so, dragons and this has just been true across the board. But like, you know, these absolute assholes have dragons. You know, very dangerous. Viserys was right. Team Viserys. Ormond was right too. Yeah, I mean the Ormond is, it's interesting because the way that he is positioning the conversation with Ulf is like, weaponizing that idea of like who you truly are. Right. He's using it to work this guy and say, oh, the tools. You know, we talked about the tool idea earlier with Ranera and Bela and her dragon riders. And like, Ormond's using everybody as a tool. He's using trying to use Ulf as a tool too. He's just more tactful about it. GM, it's great about his piece on the board. It's a dragon. Sure, it sure is. The dragon math, like you said earlier, has some up days here with some fun emerging. Just thinking about Darren and Ormond playing their, their game as a boss. And sort of like, he's like, my piece on the board. The only thing he respects about the Targaryens is the strength. So if he can use it, he will to beat them. That's his plan. The, I thought with the instantaneous, like the, you know, the way that Agon thinks. Oh, they're scared of me. They're cowering from me. And then he realizes it's Sunfire. And that there's no beat or pause. It's instant Sunfire, Sunfire, Dracaris. And then the kind of maniacal euphoric cackling glee, which we'll watch in a second. You said, Mad King, Erie's like, I was, this is such, I think really, I've enjoyed Agon's arc. But this was like, not just a, oh, I have a path forward and I'll use my power. It was such a like, oh, whatever kind of moral progress we think we're watching. We have backslid into the, I want to say this is who I truly am and what I think I am. But this is dreadful inventions. Ease what we saw. It's just stirbing the, the old, no, they'll burn. They'll burn with the little, the little, the slide, a little smile. Um, Carlos, can we see Agon very chill, calm, normal reaction to burning the mutant army? Oh, God. I mean, it was an exciting television scene. I'm concerned. Yeah, their matching faces was really, really good. That was great. Sweet Sunfire. Welcome back, buddy. Um, I really liked the, I don't know who, if that was supposed to be, a particular mutant, or just ahead of the. I thought that guy, I thought that guy was, yeah, I thought that guy was like pretty great. Tonglin Karnie talking about how he lost his voice and vomited after doing this scene. Yeah, he's fantastic. He's amazing. Also, the like, oh, he only has eight takes in him. Yeah, you know, a little nugget in the house of dragons, because he's like, this is going to require a lot. - I can't do this that many times, it's amazing. We've talked about on the book Tweek Front that Sunfire in the book, we know he's alive. The garrison, like bringing him food, and then he does roast the mootens that parts can him, but the tweak of like, and so then he's gone, and then knowing that he's gone. - Yeah, it's a mystery that like, it's clear that he's like flown away 'cause there's no footprints, so like, we don't know where Sunfire has gone. - Right, we in the show know that Sunfire is with Aegon. - That's right, and I was asking on Talk to Thrones, like do we think any member of that army escaped the blaze in the trailer that they showed for the finale, characters are just like, Aegon's return, so I guess that's known, which is, I mean, Sunfire's escape would be known no matter what, obviously, dead dragon, then he's gone. - But like, oops, Reneira, you lied about Aegon being dead, good job. - Interesting stuff. Tumble tin, we've hit a lot of this already. Goyne does provide the helpful update that the Winter Wolves are 20,000 strong and days march out. - Really devastating to see Kristin Cole's fake head still wearing the Goyne Hightower matching boyfriend mud makeup, the stripes, yeah, tough. - Tough one for old Chrissy there. I thought it was very sad to see Goyne learn about Kristin's death, Orman could not have given less of a shit, and Darren is very nice about that. - Darren was incredibly kind about it, offered his sympathy, which was very touching. Darren and Goyne, wonderful characters, wonderful pairing. Orman says at the beginning of this episode, I have a piece on the board, bring the bitch to her knees and Goyne and Darren are trying to puzzle out what this means and who it's about, it's meaningless. They don't know about all, this is a secret. So reveal at the end of the episode, they don't have this information. The comments like at the dinner sequence with Coreless, very interesting to watch Darren push back on the, 'cause, you know, how's that gonna help us though? - Yeah, Orman's like, okay, your queen doesn't give enough of a shit for me to use you as a hostage to work her, but the Valarian men, maybe I'll keep them out of King's Landing, we hear very quickly also where in the episode Alan gives the count that the Valarians are a day out of King's Landing. So the idea of keeping that reinforcement at bay. Okay, Darren's saying, how is that gonna help with the winter wolves at our gate? And then Goyne voicing something very similar later when he and Darren are debriefing. There's this interesting aspect of like, is this hubris on Orman's part to be thinking that far ahead, taking for granted that he has this humble to an edge? Or is this why he is actually a step ahead because he is able to think beyond just the one thing in front of him that feels most urgent to everybody else? Like, I mean, it's kind of interesting. - He's working both, right? 'Cause he's like using Coralist to continue to chip away in honor, which is tremendously effective. His campaign in King's Landing, tremendously effective. - Yeah. - So continuing that undermining from inside of King's Landing while also wooing all fun on the ridge. - It is sort of like, he's operating, he's continuing the King's Landing. Goyne and Darren are like, we're, we have no hope, we're dead to wrap. So Orman is like assuming victory by continuing to plan outside of Tumbleton, given how much we talk about Targaryen, hubris, that feels interesting. But again, it's like-- - But also like, why would you stop? - Right. - Yeah. - So I had to like kind of-- - If you were like, I have a chance 'cause I have silver wing and she's a goer. She's a goer. She's a goer. - Come on, gal. Coralist covering the wine cup. Make you think of Bruce, our guy, Bruce Bolton. - But also Coralist at the beginning of the series when he's a small council. - Don't poison me here, Orman, but also like, head clear. - Yeah. - Head clear. - Not only Orman's comments on his diet, vegetable kingdom, slice and a pear, real Anakin Skywalker stuff with the pear, I bet Orman also hates sand, by the way. But his recruit, like his pitch here to Coralist, which is an interesting mix of why limit yourself in tedious alliance to the British and the incurious. In general, his pitch is framed, perhaps effectively, to a legacy-obsessed character like Coralist, albeit as we've talked about a lot, 100 arc who has made a lot of progress in that respect. And certainly a character has had his issues with Ranera. But having the record scratch real-time moment where Orman has to be like, right, yeah, yeah, your wife. And it's like, okay, yeah, your kids, your grandkids, their dragon riders, house Valorian is from Valeria. The Valorians have a lot in common with the high towers in terms of their like financial might and achievement. The second sun speech from Coralist to Damon, there's like a lot of connective tissue there. Coralist's problems with Ranera are not the same as house Valorian rejecting the Targaryen supremacy. - I think Orman is sort of trying to float the idea, like maybe you should. - Yeah. - What do you think does it feel like an effective pitch? - I don't know, Coralist is a bit of a brick wall across the board here. I would like to go back to this sort of quasi-vigitarian stance from Orman. - Sure. - On our ongoing question of whether or not Orman has ever been in the position to produce airs, I would like to present with you this evidence. I do wonder how something so slippery and substance can truly be benign. Do we think Orman has ever encountered a woman, no, undressed? I do not. - Was that funny at all to you? - I had to quite, that's the joke I wrote down four times. - I was like, I like, I like, I enjoyed it. - I did it, Valorian, before I was like, I took notes four times, they watched the episode four times at each time, I was like, is that what this is like? - Slippery! - A little conch-y-pe-tee! I thought I was like, what if I wasn't with money? - I loved it. I always like a vagina joke, you know that. Come on. No, you're audience, and you do. That woman was always gonna work on me. - I loved it. - That's why I wrote it down four times. - Oh my God, great stuff, great stuff. - Finger slice makes its way to Alan. - Lovely little box that that finger came in beautiful. - I mean, it's always a finger in the box, so I gotta say. - Great signet ring. - Darren and Gawain contemplating the future, this was a great scene. - I like the way they're shot. I talked a lot about the way in which this show uses architecture to either cage people in or sort of make them look free. Alice has been a real, Allison has been a real sort of example of this. The way they're shot, you know, there's just like a bunch of intricately carved wooden screens all around them. They look so hemmed in here. - Yeah, I don't know. - But also like the, the, the, the, like the way that when Darren shouts, calls Ormond a madman and Gawain's like, shh, it's like, there's, it's not solid. Soundproof. - In the room, you're always on display too. That's it, it's a kind of. - These came from Cosmos World Market. They're not soundproof. Maybe, maybe pure one in part. - Incredible stuff. - I quite liked what we saw from Darren here in terms of, in our goodest boy, our goodest boy, and in Bolden Darren, his relationship to the idea of Darren. - Be in Darren, Darren, Darren. - Being King is something he's thinking about in a new way here. Not, no, he's just using me or no, I can never be. It's what kind of King would I be? If I, because Gawain's like you could fly on to Saran, you could survive this. It's like, what kind of King would I be? If I did that, if I left my men, I have no fear of insignificance, Gawain. Renera may keep her crown for all I care and Gawain smiles. Like, first of all, I think this is a moment we've talked a lot about the tragedy of Alison thinking Darren had a better life and then seeing what he was subjected to with Orman. But this actually is a little bit of a, maybe being away from the right keep was good and helps him for sure. - I don't care. - And also just like Gawain and Darren as two truly rare characters who maybe like, don't want endless war and bloodshed and aren't just saying that, but actually mean it. And versus. - One thing, Gawain. - Versus Orments, versus of course, Aiman and Aegon who both of this episode are like, you shall have a queen, more terrible and whatever as the dawn. And then Renera as well, you know? So like, so funny. - So like, the, I'm not, I don't fear insignificance, versus all the comments about like being lost in the dust. - Yeah. - And just sort of like Darren's like, okay. So what? - And what does power do to you? What does your dragon do to you? What even Messiah do you want to be near the throne, your silks? Like Darren's like, I just like, what if we, what if I don't want to fly? - Wanna eat cake? - Renera had it right from the jump. - Yeah. - From the jump. The all-for-veal. - Okay, I loved that. - Take me through it. Okay, incredible. First of all, and I talked about some talking thrones, but like the portable, you know, incense. - So good as burners. Incredible shit. - It's also such a donk on all of 'cause like, they're out in the open air, and Armen's like, the sky probably still smells like shit. - Absolutely, it also hates the smell of dragons. Silver wings right by there. She's a lady, but she's still a dragon. Um, I, you know, I do think it's interesting to have seen all of the dragon technical stuff that they did in this episode. - Yeah. - I did get a real flat when Raleigh Erlim, who's the sort of, I don't know, stunt supervisors, that his role. When he started talking about burning people, I was like, oh my God, I had a flashback to watching the behind the scenes from Field of Fire, then they literally showed the footage of it. But I was literally sitting there like 10 years of my life watching this guy talk about burning people. Here we are again. - We did 20, we're gonna do 23. - Here we are again. All of this stuff is cool, but there's, I, I'm missing some of the like, really fun intricate projection design behind the scenes that we've got. and in previous seasons and I would just really like to learn, I mean, we got this a vast board and we've gotten some of it. I just want to know all about Lermans, portable incense burners. OK. I love this. It's a camera reveal, too. It's not just a plot reveal, but a camera reveal. So that's great direction. And then I just want to like, we talked about some talk of Thrones, but there's multiple references inside of this conversation of like last time we talked. So this has been an ongoing seduction. How long have many conversations? It helps explain, you know, we got a lot of people asking, like, how is going able to sort of like go in and like, how are people able to go in and out? How is Bull John Rocks and able to get Corleys in there? Well, if they did it while Ulf was on shift, then like, you know, they could come and go as they please. But I think what's really fun is to go back to the previous episode and reframe the conversation that Ulf is having with Hugh when Hugh comes to relieve him, right? Ulf says, yeah, but we're not the same are we? So what he says here when he's talking to Hugh, really feels like he's regurgitating talking points from that Orman has been feeding him, right? So he says, we're not the same are we? We weren't in service back then at the back and call of the queen sleeping on a hill. And then he goes sleeping on a hill, ellipses alone. It was definitely alone. There wasn't anyone here. She stopped me from going to the tavern, Hugh. Not one ale with the lads. It was the point in having a dragon of no one's around to see it. Okay, so like, I'm all alone. I've been here alone. Don't worry about it. And then he says, well, would you go back to where you were scrabbling in the dust and Ulf goes, no, because he already knows that that's not the only alternative. And he goes, and then Ulf says, though I can't say my life has been approved, can you? So like, how much is Orman been saying, hey, can you recruit your other guy? Right. There's more in it for you if you can get Hugh in on this as well, right? But I can't say my life has been approved. Can you write then see you in two days or Hugh? Come on, go. So like, this idea that like Orman has been giving Hugh talking points. Yeah. Uh, sorry. Orman is giving Ulf talking points. Yeah. Ulf has been just like pretending that he's on boring, uh, Talboton watching duty. When we don't know how long he's been sort of convinced he's getting Honeyholt merely a trifle. Another insult to Housepiecebury, unbelievable. He offers some drift mark. Yeah. We got this great one of the tides. We got a great email from a listener, Michael. And first of all, like, of course, Orman does not want Ulf at Honeyholt. That's way too close. That's in the reach. He doesn't want him there. Yeah. Of course. And here's what Michael says. What we know about Ulf is he's had it hard and that he'd ideally like it easy from here on out. Orman probably had his allegiance, uh, just for bringing good ale. In Honeyholt, he'd be able to guzzle down the finest wines in the reach and probably make the best meat on the plant thanks to all the bees. The weather would be lovely. He never want for anything. He'd be far away from any King's landing drama. Just fly around on his dragon. See how many children legitimate and illegitimate he can make, live an easy, love and free season, take it on a one-way ride, ask a nothing, leave him be, taking everything in his drive. Meanwhile, on Driftmark, you'd be experiencing a permanent shiver from the cold wet climate. You'd probably die from the flu and short order. You'd have to care about boats and shipping lanes and balance sheets and fighting a whole bunch of wars. Crow Scott rich because he was great at that stuff. Ulf isn't. He wants none of that. Wine, women, and coin would suit him just fine. Ulf wants a retirement plan, somewhere sunny and warm and Orman's offering him a high-stress job, somewhere frigid and damp. And it's a rebuild. A lot of fire damage from the triarchy attack. Absolutely not. Glass, the bunny holds all the way. This just shows you that Ulf, while a striver, not a ball-nower. That's just true. No. He's like, ooh, a title. Yeah, exactly. I can't live in a title, but I can live in a castle. This scene was great and such a satisfying payoff for all of the component parts, all the characters. Everything that Damon and Renera have done all season that we've been like, are you giving your people what they need and what they want? I don't think we've been too subtle about, like, we knew this turn was coming from Ulf, so, like-- But I mean, this exact scene is like, this is a-- This is a rising red together? This is a different-- No, no, no, this is a different way to get it. But I feel like we've just been very much like, huh, I wouldn't treat Ulf that way if I were you. Yeah. Because we know that Ulf-- I think so, just teams. You know, like we talked about on Sunday, the fact that Orman's got to witness Damon mocking the castle longing specifically, and that all of these other things along the way, right? The name, the belly, the lads, the pub. The way that Ulf thinking about something now, like his exchange with Renera and the graffiti sequence, like, unkind. You know, if their queen has been unkind, when presented with this, performative, false, utilitarian kindness, but kindness for Mormon. And, you know, on the-- Not just, like, PR front, but savviness front. Like, we heard Orman last episode, last episode, say. The common man is as a rule of no interest or concern, but you must never trust one who's caught his way to power, whose ambition is off-fueled by some lack some shame or lust or rage. Now, of course, that's colored by what we know he's been doing with Ulf after this episode. But also, it's, like, no surprise. One more insight into Orman's elitist views, right? He has no interest in fraternizing with a commoner, like Ulf. But he's able to suck it up and do it. Hold his nose in sense and commoner-aided in other ways. And not only that, but to use the specific-- like, he's not just working Ulf and recruiting him and giving him-- he's doing it by saying to him, ludicrous. A man needs his sustenance and cheer, the exact language that Ulf used to say, this is what I want. Why won't you just give it to me? In the very same episode, where Ranera in potentially getting Reina and Sheepstealer on her team just sort of, like, completely fucks that up. Here's Orman being, like, how can I add dragons to my side? I understand who you really are. They will laugh at you no more when they see who you are. No, they will burn. Dragonath up, team. Yeah. All right, take us through Team Green. Vega. Somewhere in the Riverlands. Not with Damon, yeah. But regionally proximate. Sunfire. Back. Alive. Back, baby. In the crownlands, back with Aegon. Dreamfire. Beautiful. In King's Landing on the land as not flanks. So still not on the board, I would say. Right. And then to sorry, and in Tumble 10 with Darren. Change. So numbers are up, but they're fractured still. They're not in the same place. Right. And then Aegon still are not on the same side. But this is way up from where we've been. Sunfire being back is huge. Yeah. Huge. Team Black. Correct. She's with Damon. Yep. Seemed okay after the skirmish. Vermithor with you, bouncing between King's Landing and Tumble 10, Syrax back in King's Landing, healing from injuries suffered in this episode. Sea Smoke in King's Landing with Adam, out of patrol. Tiny bit injured, but not as badly as Syrax. Moon dancer. Same thing in King's Landing or out of patrol with Bayla. And then Tyrax, these is Jofstrag, and is in the mix, but too small to fight. Not a factor right now. Watch this space. Silver wing and Ulf. I would put it on Team Brain, but I support your optimal. You know, he seems like Ormond's done a very effective job of recruiting him, undeclared, sheepstealer, healing, and separated from Zraya. Not able to fly, not able to fly, injured badly. Cannibal and Grey Ghost, Dragon Stone, Wild Dragons, not claimed, not relevant, but flying around out there. And then dead. Airex, Malice, Vermax. Storm Cloud, haven't heard a peep in an- Airex, Malice, Vermax, all Team Black, dead. Team Black, not recruiting sheepstealer in this episode. Team Black, I would say losing Silver Wing in this episode and Team Green gaining Silver Wing and Sunfire in this episode. So in terms of the balance and then the major injury done, the Team Black. So in terms of we start this season with Team Black, way in the lead, and in this episode, the scale's completely tipped. It's a real mismanagement of resources, I would say. Book spoilers. Let's do it. [MUSIC PLAYING] Book spoilers. Can I-- You don't want to hear this, leave? Can I hit something from last week? Let's do it. We should mention that in the book "Reported Lee" after the death of Aiman. Alice has a dragon and Heron Hall. Like, it's Spots. Whisper's spotted, claims of a dragon and Heron Hall. So like-- Smoke monster? No, I'm just saying, like, the dragon eggs. But then what? I don't know. A dragon lost a history from there? Maybe. Guys. Maybe. Maybe because of ET. Who knows? That would be fun. That would be fun. Maybe her son with Aiman is hatched a dragon in the cradle, reared it, and is going to go off to ET or something. I don't know. Maybe it's just a whisper, and it's not true. Well, yes. But I'm just saying, the fact that she had a dragon, everyone was like, what do you mean she has a dragon where did it come from? And the show was like, hey, there's a clutch of eggs that aren't dreamy. Dreamy. Dreamy. So what do I think about? Helena. Feels like we're going to be saying goodbye in the finale. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it feels based on Olivia Cook saying close the windows and like the idea that Helena dies, perhaps what Alison has gone. And there's no way that Alison won't blame Renera for that, even if Renera-- even if no one does anything except Helena takes a step out the window. But also, like, Helena dies when Aiman and Damon-- there is a version of this where she could live until the next season. I don't think it's going to happen, but I'm just saying she could. She could. Yeah, she could. I mean, I've enjoyed my time with her, so that would be nice. She is not ready to say goodbye. Are you reading in the jacarice storm? of the pit dream fire sequence most of all. Are you reading like a I I won't partake in that? And so I will remove myself from the situation entirely as part of what is happening here. I thought it was interesting. We got an email from our listener Emily who says this idea that like it's sort of death no matter what path is chosen is sort of like what Holiness's seeing here and idea right dream one of foreshadows Holiness death it wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised if it's the exact area where she lands after jumping or falling so like that courtyard with the pale horse if that is where and that's an an exit of sorts a freedom of sorts she's no longer confined horrible dream to a representative fate of her unbored child male or if you if you believe that the baby is immediately taken away doomed from its very first breath dream three foreshadows the death of the dragon's with a small folk storming the dragon pit and killing them and dream for it shows the coming of winter and what comes with it the long night and the eventual fate of Westeros the white horse there makes you think it represents Helena and her twins more importantly it tells her that these events will take place long after her own death and after the fall of Targaryen's her family time is running short for Helena but at least she seemed to find some peace in the afterlife but death death death that's all down the board here and I do like this interpretation that some people are floating this idea that like what Helena for sees is that if she let's say she runs away with Jehara and Mailor if that's what you believe is in the vision or Jehara's if it's whatever if she gets to be on a chicken farm with her babies yeah does that mean that Westeros loses the long night the the battle with you know the night king is that is that is that something she's seeing right right or Eve I mean even the idea that those are you know Egon's heirs and so it's like in some camps positioning of the war and they're the ones responsible for turning around and challenging and protecting the realm from that fight I thought that the um the pay the you know gray mare like the pale horse it there's the Danny comp with the the pale mare and the bloody flux in the plague like part of what's coming in the story is a literal winter a literal winter and also the plague the winter fever so like there's the the near term death not only of the dragon war but of this sickness and just the decimation across Westeros and the the the media horizon and pale horse pale rider being this idea of death that um yeah you know they are used in give it for him yes they did they're those of a pretty shot in a baffling baffling episode um I like that we got to see dream fire before the storming of the pit so that we have some visual recognition given how tragic dream fire's death and particular is in that sequence I had been I had been debating with jomi whether or not we would see dream fire and jomi was like we have to because of the storming of the dragon pit but I was just like I don't you know I don't know like how they're going to do the storming of the dragon pit in terms of like my now are the dragons that are in the text that are main characters of that right going to be the actual dragons that are the main characters of that but this dream fire design is so distinctive and cool right that if they even show her to us like two more times yeah and then the storming of the dragon pit happens and because there is a difference just in terms of like jahara and jaharas is dragons being eggs in their show versus hatchlings and stuff like that so that they really kind of need us to care about dream fire it's obviously horrific no matter what and this is the proximity of everything or other other dragons like we could care I don't know I don't know um it did feel like a promise that we're getting the storming of the pit though not that there was ever any doubt but that's this was a real like we're doing it get ready buckle up um where are you on Sylvie is the shepherd up after this episode yeah stop climbing yeah or at least like involved in that movement definitely right it feels I can't remember which episode we got a bad baby or no we were talking about another theory and you threw out Sylvie I can't remember honestly I like people around real time it's like Kristen Orman Allison and yes someone I was very much like it could be like small foe Sylvie member the small foe and then I think you said Sylvie and I was like hell yeah anyway this seems right yeah I feel like this seems right yeah we don't have a lot of time for new candidates well that's what I'm saying like it could be a new person that is introduced in next season like a lieutenant yeah does it matter I mean does it matter if the person is a male does it matter if the person is missing a hand you know funny so on the I was like given the tension that immediately surface between Sylvie and I take her hand I there are around all the they just drawn attention to the blades of the throwing the cocks coming I was like it's gonna take her hand right now it's gonna take her hand and then it would have been confirmed that would have been fun um on the winter front from world device and fire a terrible hard winter first declared by the conclave in old town in 138 seon maidens day had to confirm grip on the realm and would last for six cruel years so this gonna be bad it's gonna be a bad one I'm excited for snowy season six or four whatever the fuck a season one um okay so sunfire and egg on I guess the dragon stone waiting a dragon stone park can still be a secret in a twist if he flies off in the finale yeah on sunfires back yeah and then is like missing for a few episodes and then she rolls up to dragon stone and he's like surprise motherfucker I just don't know what lyrus is up to I guess back going back to king's landing yes but and he's like remember how he gave you auto yeah and I mean yeah that's interesting and it's also like we did get an email he did sing songs about no egg on because nobody knew he was at works rest so that's that's funny we did get an email from a listener Mickey who said his coast being set up as the big team black betrayal of dragon stone at renier's big moment interesting I thought that was interesting and I was wondering if corals being captured makes renier suspect him yeah like he's there it tumbled in and he could say they captured me but she's well that would be great because the paranoia especially if that's entwined with Adam Adam that feels really right I don't know like why is he there yeah yeah that's to be a reason I don't know that like bringing back alpha broom or Celtagar to do the dragon stone thing has nearly the effect of someone we're more attached to so it's that's an interesting idea yeah and corals seem to take note of daring you know any mean like he clocked that exchange with interest and we'll linger on his face yeah no for sure yeah um if he's like team green they have some points yeah and one of them's not a total mania yeah yeah well I mean obviously corals is shifting you know a relationship to team black is like a big part of the story yeah so the fact that the show's clearly gonna do it a little bit differently but maybe not completely differently that's interesting um on the tapestry front so Helena one of the things that she says to amand she's not just talking about amand's future she brings up egon's wooden throne hmm to me now does she see clearly enough to stitch onto the tapestry runera's fade in a way runera could pick up and see I don't know but she at least saw a post dragon stone showdown egon hmm does that mean she stitched sunfire eating runera onto the tapestry i mean that's presuming that what she's stitching is actually the yeah possibly and you think red air is gonna find it and be like what that what's all this then I don't know maybe um what was on the what was on her needle point this week it seemed like I could not tell I gotta be honest it seemed like burning some flames burning towers so I would say maybe tumble to tumble to tumble yeah good old tumble um damon and rena wait actually let's go back to tumble for a sec all uh often hew is he is all gonna are we gonna see I don't know is he gonna swing him pre it seems like a trailer like a very big battles there some things are different like daemon obviously from the trailer for the season but also this episode he's there he's on forceback sometimes but correct he's just there that's different yeah is to serian gonna come out and fight when does he turn is that because of cat on the ground or all i mean cat on the ground has to be a part of it but i i don't know that i fully understand yeah i don't see the vision exactly yet of how he was going to turn yeah yeah but i do think that wolf has been working on him on behalf of orment yeah certainly incepting him yeah okay daemon and rena are they gonna go on for fake art together i like this idea like pre god's eye still is this a version of this gonna happen interesting the mootons like i don't know if we're gonna get the they go hang out at the mootons and then there's like a kill maybe they'll go back i mean i would like to move the mootons in the future retract my critique of building of jane errands uh call because they've been using that set so if they make it still the veil for some reason you know what i mean we could just keep using i mean jane errands great the dogs are great just run for dogs great that set is great so if they're just at the veil instead like yeah that could be you know and jane errands like i guess i'll still hide you i don't know why she would have her mind changed um when do you think god's eyes gonna be near the end of season really like six maybe at the earliest i would say you think it's gonna be earlier yeah as painful as it'll be to say goodbye to mad swift think about how long they held on to christine cold this season i know but they have so much to do they have so even if we're obviously getting first tumbleton even if we also get haleena i mean we have so god's eye is where aemon and daemon die right um or does daemon die question if - If only one character gets to survive-- - It should be Damon. - It should be Darren. - If one character was supposed to die-- - Yes, that would be great. - It's darling Darren. - Well, I mean, it's entirely plausible given the accounts. - With his red hair. - Okay, so like, he's gotta make it. So I will lose fucking Damon Targaryen if it means Darren can survive. - I was just a gray running to say, I noticed small detail in season three episodes. Seven that counts as a spoiler for future events. During the sheep's healer fight, Damon wasn't strapped in on Coraxi's back. He was able to be thrown off. I had to imagine they were thinking by the battle of the gods I, when they made that choice, I had flashes in my eyes of Matt Smith, leaping from dragon to dragon, wielding dark sister, 'cause he's not impeded by a pesky dragon seat belt. - Oh, I get it. I thought the lengths they went through at the beginning of the season to a gulla to show us Jay strapped in, was really thinking about the way they used to talk about that. - We were just saddles, yeah. - Thailand, a lot of just comments about how he's gonna be tortured his ears. - I thought it was a very specific portrait of his future torment, which I enjoyed. What else, let's see. Hmm, are we gonna do the torment manderly? The Celtic art tax, is it happening? The Contencox just came up again. - You just wanna say it. - The Contenx, you just wanna say it as much as possible. - It's so funny. - Great stuff. - Sabatha is in the book. She does take her in all for three days, and then she has to hide in the privy, tough one. So I guess the freeze will go to her. - Oh, I guess so. - That's what I'm saying, and that will happen at the beginning of season four. I just think there's a lot of shit that they can do to draw out the amen and daemon thing. - Yeah, they can draw that out. It's more about how much has to happen after. But I guess they can move some things around. - Tell me all the things that you feel like that need to happen after God's eye. - Well, everything with the shepherd, obviously, it needs to be paced so that we build toward storming up the pit. We build toward Syrax at some point. So it would be helpful if Joffrey spoke, assuming that the Joffrey Syrax thing is going to happen in that fashion, which I feel like is pretty important given the dragon control element of the story. I mean, I have a lot of questions about Allison to actually. We have to get second, Tumbleton. We have to have the whole Kaltrop plot. Does that have to happen after amen and daemon day? - Not necessarily. - Second time we have to get dragon stone, obviously. - Yeah, but that can happen. Like if it's six, if you die's in six. - Yeah. - Like, and seven and eight is mostly just sort of like daemon's gone, what is Ronira going to do? Syrax is gone, daemon's gone, what is Ronira going to do? - And then we get seven and eight. - Yeah, and everything else is sort of shifted before God's eye. I can see that happening. Just to keep daemon Targaryen in the plot. They're putting him everywhere, you know? He's just all over everything. - I mean, is that Tumbleton? - He has to leave the building on the show. - I know, so yeah. I'm not eager to say goodbye to daemon Targaryen. - No, no or am I, I just, you know? I think they're gonna stretch it out. I think they will happily reshuffle whatever they need to reshuffle to keep daemon Targaryen on the show. There's no, butchers ball was gonna be like episode two of this season. - I know. - And they're like, let's keep Fabian around until episode six. - That was a mistake though. - But it wouldn't be a mistake to keep daemon around. I don't think. - Anything else from the book splurs? - I mean, I'm just excited for Alice to be like, obviously pregnant. - Same. - Yeah. - With the smoke, baby. (laughing) - So be great. - Maybe. (laughing) - Obviously there's an actual child standing next to her and fire a blind at one point. But maybe he's smoky and then the longer he's around, he takes more shape. - Yeah. - Corporeal form. - Corporeal form. - Yeah, corporeal form. - It happened. - All right, that's a wrap. Please join us as a reminder. - Live, live for the Talk to Thrones finale on Sunday night after the episode of House of the Dragon. We'll be with CR. We're excited for that. And then we'll be back next week for our deep dive and hopefully a surprise or two. Thank you to our squad today. Carlos. Cheraboga, a hero who still now has to edit all of this. - I know, legend. - We've been at this for hours. - Prince. Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, our Generome Gapowell and Jomi Adeneron. We will see you in a couple of days for the obviously male bag and Dolan power ranking. And then on Sunday live for Talk to Thrones. Goodbye. Bye. (upbeat music) - What if we just pluck that hair? I asked Carlos earlier if anyone had tweezers. I do. You wanna just pull it out? I kind of want to just do it with my fingers. - What? (laughing) - Is this one, right? I mean, would everyone do it? - Are you ready? - Yeah. - Glad you guys have that again. (laughing) - And now I have your hair for spells. (laughing)