'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 6 Deep Dive

greetings and welcome to house of r a ringer verse podcast on the ringer podcast network i'm mallory rubin joining me today she'll hear no more from those whose greatest battle has been with their own indigestion oh it's joanna robinson so it's a silent podcast from both of us today silent pod we're in we're out done we're done okay it's a wrap we are here to not only work through our latest infirmities and ailments thank you for your patience with us once again but to dive deep deep deep deep deep deep deep into house of the dragon season three episode six which we will do right after this all right programming reminders talk the thrones we've only got a couple more of those left this season sheesh sunday night it's sad right after episode seven we will be back with chris ryan for talk the thrones and then our plan currently is to do the finale live so get in the youtube chat for the finale in a couple weeks that's going to be a fun one we will be back on tuesday or wednesday for the deep dives and spider-man in the meantime brand new day is here this week it's spidey premiere week at last and so we will have our deep dive into the new spidey movie on friday afternoon is the loose plan but we've got a couple recordings that day we're working out some scheduling stuff so friday into the weekend tbd we're doing our best how can everybody follow along oh my god great question uh email us hoppets and dr. dragons at gmail.com um we're doing an honesty mailbag let's hear it uh there was a call to action on our socials and you guys have already sent a ton of emails for that so that's really exciting uh thank you for that uh we probably have more than we need but actually yes you know what send more keep them coming why not yeah uh so honestly email and then um any question you have about the odyssey any opinion you have about the odyssey we will definitely get into the emily wilson controversy and all that sort of stuff but you guys have just been sending us so many posts odyssey emails that we thought we would um just do a special mailbag for you we're excited we're doing that at the top of next week so uh if you want to get those in before the end of the week that would be great um also we're going to do our our nolan our official nolan ranking on that podcast we're going to save it for the oppenheimer but who knows when that pod's gonna we don't know when that's gonna be so it's gonna be before paul of fame um maybe probably as you can say um so i'm curious here's here's a prompt for the bad babies um not necessarily your nolan ranking because we're not going to read out a million people's nolan rankings but like if you want to make the argument for like what is the most nolan movie and why i'd be curious to see it if you're like here's my here's my case for why interstellar is the most nolan movie or here's my case why the prestige is the most nolan movie or something like that or inception if you prefer if you're mallory so um most best however you prefer to define it opposite drag it's a gmail.com follow us on social at house of r um and you can watch us at house of our pod thank you so much that is our social handle it is at house of our pod um you can watch us on youtube you can watch us on spotify um follow the pod in general yeah like subscribe tell your friends should i post a photo that i sent you and arjuna last night of the migraine cap that i was wearing battling a pretty bad headache girl i don't think you can tease it on the podcast and not post it was a recommendation from arjuna just uh has arrived in my home we'll see if it provides some relief it was a a nice initial initial task maybe i will post it we'll see though i've yet to post a photo with dark sister so that seems more important during the hot deer run why not both the migraine cap on holding dark sister i mean that's like real you know luke yeah training training yeah kind of vibe should i should i do that with a valerian steel blade i just have i don't know i just have adam off camera go like you know like make little noises he'd be good at that yeah yeah he'd be good at that um i have a very special before we get into like our larger uh episode and all the other things we do i just have a quick message from our listeners katie and eli who we met at san diego comic-con who are wearing these incredible gods be good uh shirts yes they sent us uh some photos in our email of like the shirts signed like because we they had to sign the shirts so like that anyway i just want you and i have for different reasons had slightly arduous weeks so far and so i just thought that i would read this like really nice email from katie and eli i haven't seen it it's a surprise to me i've cut out the nice things i said about me and this is about you um as a fellow graduate of the humanities go syracuse orange oh kiss i think now more than ever in our society it is critical that we highlight and celebrate the wonder creativity messages themes and entire worlds that tv and movies can submerge us into helping to develop entire communities of fans who can connect over stories across the world i added a goal to my 26 vision board this year to intentionally make time for myself to unplug from the hustle of everyday pressures and pursue crafts and creativity in my life even in small ways for the things i am passionate about i did this to remind myself of my childhood love for art and the creative process not to simply produce a painting or finished product but for the sheer joy of creating which is where i came up with the idea to paint the gods be good apple t-shirts i love it here you guys give our shirts a shout out on your recent comic-con recap pod absolutely made my day i was cleaning my kitchen and i was like oh my god i'm so excited to be here i'm so excited to be here and i dropped my spatula and had to immediately call eli and tell him thank you for all that you do and for bringing such substance depth and appreciation to the fabric of these stories not just for myself but for countless other bad babies as well your deep dives into all the wonderful details help to weave a common thread that makes these characters kingdoms and experiences so important to us fans and that make the entire experience all the more special it's delightful thank you katie and eli it was just uh wonderful to meet you wonderful to meet everyone here you know meet all the bad babies at the meetup at the panel just kind of walking around san diego and the halls of the convention center we did all the pleasure we went into the bowels of the convention center we did actually that was a real that was a wild that was great it was just amazing to meet so many of the bad babies and be out in the world with people who uh you know have gotten to know each other through the pod and who love the stories we love and the fictional universes we love it's a jolt of of just joy truly friends in line you know what i mean like that was really sweet line buddies uh like at the meet and greet so like i would love even more occasion i need to figure out how to do it but i would love even more occasion to like sort of bring our not like necessarily like a physical thing but like a online platform to bring our listeners together so that they can connect with each other uh that's on my vision board for the rest of 2026 uh but we have some ideas cooking for the fall so uh we're going to um stay tuned but anyway thank you to katie thank you to eli thank you to all of our listeners who showed up and said hi this weekend and thanks to those of you who weren't there but are nonetheless listening to us talk about house of the dragon for hours and then every week i know wild not to mention spider-man mallory you work extremely hard and i am so impressed and delighted by you and i just uh thought you should know you're an angel people love you thank you for that thank you katie and eli and uh you know just so i always feel when we're even a few hours late a minute late on a pot i always feel bad we're we're really doing our best just trying to try to get through it but we're having a blast so that's nice it is the best to talk about this stuff really is uh should we get to the opening snapshot let's do it okay season three episode six faceless men directed by lani perister written by david hancock and shyam popat so we talked about this for the first time with chris on talk the thrones a literal week ago yeah slightly disorienting this is i think maybe the longest gap we've ever had but maybe we had this same thing one other time between a talk the thrones banking and the deep dive for anyone who did not listen to talk the thrones or in case in the the seven days six and a half days since we recorded that and everything has changed give us a quick opening table setting taste of your takes on this episode of television joanna where are you i think i've unclenched slightly on some of my takes that i that my initial takes um i still have some questions i still think the butcher's ball i have some the thing about talk the thrones is we're sort of like racing to get through everything in an hour where i'm used to a much more luxurious pace and so like you know i had time for all my critiques of the butcher's ball but not enough time i think for the positive things that i want to say about the butcher's ball of which i have plenty to say and uh i still have my critiques here and there but i also just like i'm excited to highlight some of the other things that we didn't get to yes that i did enjoy in this episode um so that's where that's where i am but i also don't think we like bashed the episode the way that some of the commenters seem to think we we did i think we just had some you know what it's okay to be critical of an episode oh definitely part of loving a a thing is holding it to account when it's not as good as it should be um yeah i'm excited to dive deeper into this episode too i agree because there's a lot of really rich lore and story like i'm excited to spend a little bit more time than we got to on sunday show talking about the Reina, Dreamfire, Harrenhal likes. For example, like we're, that's just, there's some really delicious, great Game of Thrones nerd shit in this episode that, oh, to be gay and sad at Harrenhal, you know? That I'm really excited to dive into. And like we said on Sunday, the Tumpleton scenes, I mean, the Gawain, Ormond, Darren scenes were just delicious. I still have a lot of notes on this episode and it remains my least favorite of the season. And I think the least successful of the season for all of the reasons we hit on Sunday. And that we'll, you know, continue to parse and assess as we go through. But there's, the fact that there are only two episodes left in this season is sort of surreal. Like, I can't believe we're six episodes into the season. I'm just like, where has the time gone? Where has the season gone? And so I'm thinking not only about this episode and the remainder of this season, but just the remainder of this series and how much, but also little time is left. I think, I'm thinking about that. You're stressed about 10 episodes to cover. I'm curious to see, and I think the end of this season will do a lot to establish, like, how, what is going to be, what's going to make the cut and what isn't the rest of the way. I'm, I'm, I'm very curious to see that. I don't know that we'll have clarity on that by the end of the season. Maybe we won't. Maybe we won't. And then we won't find out for two years. Yeah. Sad. Okay. I'll miss House of the Dragon when it's gone. But we'll be together. A lot to talk about. I know. We will be. We'll be with Dunk. We'll be with Egg. Mm-hmm. We'll be with Hot Sauron. Hot Sauron. Very exciting. Celeborn. What a time to be us. What a lover boy. Sweet lover boy. Sweet lover boy, Celeborn. Just some great Instagram content right now on the Rings of Power front. Oh, yeah. Jamie Campbell Bower's just out there crushing it. Oh, my God. On the TikToks, on the reels. He was, like, incredible on the Stranger Things tour, and I think he's now, like, even more in his element. His love for Buffy the Vampire Slayer is incredibly important for me. Yeah. But also Charlie Vickers expressing his love for Xena Warrior Princess is incredibly important. It's big. Just two of the all-time great guys, you know? Speaking of great guys, let's get to the Bard Corner. Yeah. Great transition. What if we aren't on the Bard front from the bad babies this week? We're changing this to Bard slash Classics Corner, okay? Okay. Aiden, who I've been misgendering this whole time, Aiden, the originator of the Bard Corner, he's a lady. She let me know that. I think Aiden's a really cool name for a lady. Aiden said, A warning for Rhaenyra and Daemon about their treatment of Ulf, courtesy of Ser Jon Falstaff. Quote, If sack and sugar be a fault, then God help the wicked, banish Plump Jack, and banish all the world. Very good. Very good. Very good. William wrote in with some Richard II, the Hollow Crown gist. William wrote in, When the Iron Throne wounded Rhaenyra, I thought of Richard II and how he described another royal symbol that harbors danger. Yeah. Quote, For within the Hollow Crown that rounds the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court and there the antic sits scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp and with a little pin bores through his castle wall and farewell king. So I thought all of that was really good, but also William wrote in with a Beowulf quote for Kristen Cole. Quote, We're all going to die from the Maria Devana Headley translation, which is the one I raised when we were talking about the Odyssey translation. So he's reading that one, a fairly recent translation of Beowulf. Quote, We're all going to die, but most of us won't go out in glory. Here's what matters though for men, not living, but living on in legend. And then William wrote, No story glory for you though, Kristen. So, yeah. No story glory for you. It's just, it's great. And then our listener Elizabeth wrote in, quoting Elizabeth Bennett from Pride and Prejudice. Love it. Saying, I do not play this instrument so well as I would wish to, but I have always supposed that to be my own fault because I would not take the trouble of practicing. And that's a note, for Rhaenyra and ruling. And I want to read Elizabeth's email here because I cut it down a bit, but it's really, I thought, funny and fair. She says, Why does the show make grown-ass Rhaenyra, their girl in the fight, so incompetent and incurious? I guess Viserys didn't do a good job training her and Aegon for the role. However, a 12-year-old running for student council understands that they need to talk to their fellow middle schoolers to get the vote. Surely the heir to the Iron Throne who grew up in King's Landing and witnessed countless small council meetings understands the importance of other nobles and his people. and institutions to keep the realm together. She never thought to hop on Cyrax and take a few tours around Westeros to forge her own relationships with the leaders of the Great Houses while she was chilling on Dragonstone. She grew up near the Great Sept of Baelor, but didn't think it worth trying to cultivate a relationship with the Faith or at least powerful members thereof. Rhaenyra threw a few carrots at people when Miss Arya reminded her about the poor people in King's Landing that she helped starve, but it's not like it occurred to her on her own. Viserys may not have prepared her well, but she, as an adult, could have at least tried to meet anyone, to learn anything, to work on her diplomacy, to understand how to run a castle, to make actual allies, to understand the tax policy, anything. She never took the trouble to practice. So, that's Elizabeth's critique. I don't disagree with a lot of it. We will add in, you know, all of the people on Dragonstone who were telling her, no, Rhaenyra, no, Rhaenyra, you can't, like, do this, that, or the other thing. You know, Jace has to go out and do the diplomacy. Like, you can't get on your dragon. You have to be here. You're too precious. We need to protect you. So, all of that was happening. But, if you think about young, headstrong, I'm going to go on Syrax to Dragonstone, Rhaenyra, you know, there is a version of Rhaenyra that has existed in this world that would have done those things anyway. Rhaenyra, but that Rhaenyra, historically bad at diplomacy. Really did not work for her very well last time she went around Westeros sort of trying to make good with the noble houses. So, like. Didn't do great on the potential betrothal tour. Exactly. So, something she's always been bad at, but something she did not take the trouble to learn or correct. So, failing on diplomacy failing on public relations front, failing on a lot of fronts. So, Rhaenyra, bad at ruling? Yes. Aegon, also bad at ruling. I just need to say, Aegon, also bad at ruling. They're all bad at it. Daemon, terrible. It's a shared failure of this entire family, which certainly connects to this entitlement and hubris. A lot of it is the failure to prepare them, as the email, and as you said, Viserys, we put it on your doorstep as always. Legolated hands. Yeah, I mean, spend more time with your family and your kids and think about your lineage. Less with your Legos. I'm going to be dead by the end of this podcast. When you die, never. Barely hanging on. Should we erect a giant statue to you in the Sycamore Studios so that you can look up with you holding your Legos? Will you just occasionally look up and just flee? As the petitioners appeal to you? Depends if I've just sliced my hand on the symbol of power. Some sharp corners here. Some sharp corners here, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like you holding holding your Legos? That sounds great. Yeah, a couple. One of my friends is a wonderful painter. My dear friend's Katie is a fantastic painter and she has painted me a couple times and I'm holding books in those paintings, but why not a Lego? Yeah. I'll see if next time I'm in Baltimore she can work on that. Not next time. We're a little busy next time, but maybe the time after. We are. We got a lot going on, yeah. On that email, the last thing I'll say is it's a potent combo of not just the lack of prep, but when you hear that you're ordained by the gods, maybe you work a little, you know, you've got that on your mind as well and then the other thing on the let's mention egg on front that you, I think, very reasonably and rightly noted and we should always hammer, it's the kind of thing that egg on or some of the bros could get away with. Oh, yeah. Damon, well, incompetent his whole life. Exactly. Part of the charm. Egg on had like all this infrastructure around him, right? He had like auto, he had this sort of like this much smoother transition of power into his reign. So he could like sexually assault women in the court or be drunk or masturbate on his mattress or whatever he wanted to do and then just sort of like he, you know, and then fly in a battle and get his whole face melted off. You know what I mean? Like an incompetent asshole. I just like, I'm so more than happy to talk about how incompetent Rhaenyra is and all the bad decisions she's making. I just want to make sure we don't forget because egg on is making some like cool, enriching choices when he's like, uh, Tylan. Yes. A lick spittle tells me anything that I want to hear. Laris challenges me. I'll go with Laris. You're like, oh, some growth. But I'm not going to forget what you did. Egg on. No, of course not. Character on an arc. Egg on the second. Sure. Sausage on a spit. Something to think about. Sausage on a spit. Yeah. I think the, uh, the choices and the failures and the mistakes that are part of the character arc, very rich text to parse and often quite, quite a central element of this tragic, deeply tragic tale for the characters and the family. A little bit different from the, uh, there are a few things in this episode that fall more into the why did the, the show have the character do that bucket a la Rhaenys and, uh, Maelys exploding through the floor of the dragon pit killing legions and then saying, not, not on me to start shedding blood. Say a few things fell more into that bucket and that becomes a different thing entirely. So we'll draw that distinction as well. We have some big questions. Shall we head to the bowels of the pleasure den or the bowels of the convention center? Yeah. Shall we head to the deep dive? Something our, uh, our pal Joaquin said to me when we were in San Diego Comic-Con is he called it District H, uh, like the area around Hall H as in like District 8, like as in the Hunger Games as in like everyone's hungry and mad and that's pretty good. That's accurate. I think that should stick. Yeah. We should use that next year. Yeah. I like it. Joaquin the best. District H. The best. Was the butcher's ball the best? So let's start there at the beginning of the episode. The butcher's ball is here at last. Mm-hmm. We. are marching, along with Kristen and his depleted army. Like Admiral Ackbar into a trap. It's a zombie riverman trap. The living spring up from among the dead. I thought that was cool. Very fun. Very fun. And Kristen and co. smash some faces, swing in some weapons. Fun to hear about the blood in the Morningstar. Flail. Flail. No, by the way, in the House of Dragonsville, they all called it a Morningstar. Email them, guys. But it's a flail, as we learned. Or maybe I forgot the nuance. Maybe it's like not all Morningstars are flails. Oh, the old, like, bald rhombus. Yeah. Maybe a flail can be a Morningstar. But anyway, it's definitely a flail. Yeah. I think it definitely looked really cool. And I thought it was cool that Fabian Frankel was talking about how, like, thuggish he wanted Kristen Cole's sort of last stand to be. Not just that he was, like, he said, I think he said thuggish and sluggish, which is kind of fun. But, like, not just that he's tired, but also, like, Kristen Cole, you know, this accusation of him being a thug was something that sort of followed him his whole life. Something he quite earned when he, like, gay-bashed the guy to death at a wedding, you know, in season one, if you recall. But, you know, that sort of classist language that was associated with him. So he doesn't go out. I mean, he goes out, you know, brutally. He goes out, brutally bashing faces in, doing the sort of, like, shiv-dagger motion that don't gif that. And. Do it. Do it. Don't do that. Regrets. But he's not going out with, like, you know, beautiful, elegant sword work. Despite the fact that, you know, he ties Allison's favor around the pommel of the sword in this. He loves to wrap Allison around his. Allison's around his sword. Loves it. Loves it. In this sort of, like, his notion. What I do like, what I do think worked really well in this Butcher's Ball thing is the use of Allison's favor, which he begged for in season two. And you and I had this exact same idea in our notes, which is that this is a tieback to when we very first met Kristen Cole and he was asking for a favor from Rhaenyra. Minute one. Yeah. God sees Dornish. God sees Dornish. And, like, you know. So that'll. That all ties into Kristen Cole's idea, occasional idea of himself as this, like, chivalric idea of a knight. Right? The perfect snow white cloak and how it's sullied. But how he sort of, like, continually tries to reconvince himself that he is, you know, Sir Galahad. And he just, like, never has been but this idea. And so for him to, in that moment, take the favor of his lady fair. The queen he was fucking, right? Wrap it around his sword, as you so evocatively noted. And then, like, sort of die with it fluttering, like, just out of reach and stuff like that. But to wrap this ignominious death in this idea of chivalry and knightly perfection. Yeah. It just, like, is his delusion to the very end of, like, who he is. And that, I think, fits well into this larger idea. The idea of what the butcher's ball is supposed to give us, which is Kristen Cole, who in the previous episode says, like, they'll sing songs of this. And then what we get at the end of the day is something much more brutal and nasty and not an epic, you know, saga-like exit for this character. Full of contradictions at the end, which is ultimately pretty interesting to watch and more interesting than the overt undeniable. So much of this falls at his feet, villain, on the page. You know, we, I think, are back in a place of, on the tipping of the scales, more judgment than not for Kristen at the end, which feels like an appropriate place to be with the character, given how much culpability he does bear and the things, the horrible things that he has done. But I do like that we got even the choice to bring out his original weapon that we saw him using in the tourney at the beginning when he asked for Nier's favor feels of a piece with painting the Cole house sigil. On the shield. And what is he seeking to reclaim and return to and connect to anew? And what can he not let go of, including the idea of some sort of righteous, pure, valid course? And to say, you know, in his big speech last episode that the oaths and the words of the great lords and houses that he's done with that and then shout as a battle cry, we light the way, is, I think, a nice encapsulation of how confused. Yeah. The nihilism that defined the late stretch of Kristen's story was very clear and very undeniable, but it was embroiled and mixed with this confusion that was an undeniable beat of humanity. I thought it was kind of interesting. I can't remember because it was a week ago and so much has happened, but I know that Chris raised the sort of question of like, you know, that Kristen Cole dies in the opening of this episode and nobody talks about it. Yeah. And I would like to believe that a week ago you and I had said that's sort of the point, right? That like, there will be no songs about his death. Yes. I mean, eventually people will find out that Kristen Cole literally died, but the fact that Alison doesn't learn in this, you know, that he's like, they'll sing songs about it and Queen Alison will hear. Right. And Alison's like, I don't think about you at all, first of all. I've got one. You didn't make today's meeting notes for anyone. Yeah, I've got one job and it's Helena, right? So like, you know, Alison will hear of it. But Alison A. Does not hear of it. And B. Is not just like sitting back in the castle being like, I hope Kristen Cole's okay. Yeah. Doesn't much care. I do think that that is one of the handful of examples of this episode of something that feels like so thematically resonant and rich in the text and still is in the story that is rendered on screen here. Right. But just simply doesn't quite work as well as an episode of television and like logical, coherent TV. Because the fact that all season long, every time we go up with Jane Aaron in The Veil, for example. Like not a character, actually, in the thick of all of this stuff, the way that many other of our central figures are. Everyone knows everything all the time. Because Jane Aaron's dogs are on the case. They are. They are. You're right. I mean, maybe it's as simple as that. But I do think it feels a little like stilted and inert and odd when Gawain and Ormond, for example, are talking about Kristen as though he is still outwaging this fight that has ended. And there are a number of moments like that across this. Or while reporting at the small council that Kristen's troops are hindering. It's everybody else being on delay when so consistently this season they've all been current. I really think felt odd. And I'm not surprised that Chris and. No, no, no. I'm not. I'm not surprised. And I don't know that it feels consistent. But I do think it's it's to your point, thematically rich. Yes. And I do think that. I mean, I have to assume that Gawain will find out next week. Yes. That Kristen Cole has died. Maybe that's when we'll get the butcher's ball naming. Maybe. Similar to like, you know, David finding out about Sir Simon Strong and stuff like that. Do you know? And so it's just sort of like. And then ask about Alice. Remember that? That was that was epic. I do. That was great. So from the Hillcrest, they think they've won. Right. They think they've won. They've bashed some cheeks. Some faces have exploded. OK, that's not really the fight. Right. And that's just like in the book, Joe. All this was but prelude, the quote goes. So we see up on the hills, the winter wolves, the river men emerging and amassing and closing in. And Kristen gets just like in the book, the hour death line. Right. It has arrived at last the moment that he has sought in some ways. And I really like because Oscar and Roddy are up at the front. I liked Oscar's Kristen Cole, traitor, usurper and defiler of justice. Come forth to hear your fate. The lack of the word, sir, like no respect paid to this figure at the end, but just a real crystallization of how Kristen is seen by team. Black, but really by so many in the realm of somebody who is really uniquely responsible for what has happened here and for Egon's rise, which is interesting because in this adaptation, he is a little less responsible than he is in the book. Like the book pins a lot of this Kingmaker stuff directly on Kristen. And they're not like an auto and Allison were like very much involved as well. I think all this I actually really liked this part of it. Yeah. Like the the amassing of the forces on the. Ridge around through the mist. Shot partially that way so that it could like digitally enhance the number of people who are around, you know, but it gave very much. Knights of the Veil showing up at the Battle of the Bastards or get off in the and the here I'm showing up, but it's the reverse, right? It's not help is on the way. Help is here. It's like, here's your death. It's been like, wait, you know, but it's shot in a similar way where it's just sort of like, ah, here they are. It's the troops. Oh, no, it's all of the people who want to kill us. This is not a battering ram to clear your path. It's the fist to close. Yeah. And what I think is interesting, I've seen a lot of people critique this set up because the question is like, why this theater when they are so outmatched by the Rivermen? Like they stage this whole thing to, I guess, to draw Kristen and his men into this like center. But like they sacrifice like a bunch of. Riverman died for this, like, little bit of theater set up. when really probably all of those men could have just charged Kristen and his men and got them. Right. Do you know? Yes. I'd say that there's always a little bit of, was this the right battle tactic to critique on the throne's front? But I am not a military tactician, so who am I to judge? You know, the, like, okay, Rob and co. had to sacrifice some men to lure Jamie into the trap. I like the idea that here it is, and this is not actually the answer, to be clear. Let's just, the delicious last taste of disappointment for Kristen, have him think. Yeah. Sacrifice your men to have Kristen think that he did it. I mean, just like, those guys might have had families, you know what I mean? Like, Black Alley could have shot him in the face at any moment when he was flailing some other guys in the face, you know what I mean? So, like, those guys are just fodder for a great theatrical embarrassment of Kristen Cole. Yeah. Well, as usual, the great lords of. Westeros, don't give a shit about anyone. They play their Game of Thrones, what'd you say? Another game, what is your game in this episode? And once again at home, I was like, of Thrones? You mentioned your guy, Oscar Tully. Yep. Our listener, Leah, wrote in to say, every time I see Oscar Tully, he reminds me of a combo of Kimmy Antonelli and Ollie Beerman. Beerman. Beerman, yeah. Interesting. He definitely, he is very similar. Well, so this is an F1 reference. Yeah, oh, I know. This is the only reason why it's here. It's free. Kimmy leading the Drivers' Championship currently, dismaying. He's a teenage prodigy. Mercedes is just so far ahead. But, but, is there hope? You know, Lando took the last Grand Prix before the break, Joe. It's not all too much for little Lando Norris. I would say that Oscar and Kimmy have very similar hairstyles, so that's part of it. I'm not really seeing the Ollie Beerman, though Ollie is a British driver, so maybe that's part of it. Kimmy is Italian, in case you're wondering. Thanks for this F1 email. It's great. I'm looking. Ollie has, like, the curl, the tumble of curls. He does. He's, like, he's very different. Yeah, I don't see the Ollie thing. I don't. Okay. But I do see, I do see the Kimmy comp. Great stuff. A lot of sports emails. I'm seeing daddy sports. That's just how this guy, that's his email. Wonderful. Great stuff. Love it. Uh, you think that, um, Oscar and Kimmy should watch Bone Temple together? You think Oscar's been crushing the Bone Temple tape? Big 28 Years Later fan? Yes. Talking about needing bones for his temple? I do think that. That was pretty fun. I wanted to ask you a question, because Roddy, we get this, and this is a, this is a true to text Roddy the Ruin idea and a Winter Wolves idea more broadly, right? Kristen's like, well, if we fight, a lot of you are going to die too. This is right from the page. Roddy's like, what better way to go than with blade in hand, right? And. And everyone's like, thank God for the closed captioning. We cheer, right? We're like, yeah, fucking go. What is it? This feels worth interrogating for just a second here. It feels different. It feels different about Roddy and the Winter Wolves readiness to die versus Kristen's, which we have been so critical of, because we do receive them in very different ways. I've come to die for the dragon queen. They've come, they feel themselves a burden on their own people. So they've come to fight for a cause that they believe in. What is Kristen fighting for? Yes. Nothing. His own glory and that's it. Yeah. And that's the difference, folks. Great stuff. Kristen gets a little let us begin in there. So we're getting a lot of let us, let us begin. Actually, this season. Ask to face just Oscar and Roddy. Just a teenager and old man. Fucking Kristen. In the book, it's like three younger men that he's like. I know. It is sort of shameful. It is sort of shameful here. It's funny. The answer comes in the form of one, two, three arrows. From Black Alley. Kristen falls and dies. The rivermen swarm. There's only one other guy in Kristen's remaining army who we even kind of know. So we look, we zoom in on Sir Edgar's face as the, they're all swallowed up. And here's the passage from Fire and Blood about this complete massacre, decimation of every living soul in Kristen's force. Of the five guys who are left here with Kristen Cole. The battle that followed was as one-sided as any in the dance. Today was butchery, not battle. Mushroom upon. Hearing a report of his words, dubbed the fight, the butcher's ball. And so it has been known ever since. I thought this episode of television would be called the butcher's ball. Yeah. But it wasn't. It was called Faceless Men. Mushroom forever claiming to have coined many pithy names. I really respect it. He's doing two things all the time. Claiming credit for naming everything that's cool. Yeah. And talking about how big his dick is. And also just like, do you want to know the nastiest. That's right. Interpretation of events. But yeah, I got to. And actually he's also always like, I was the only one who could make Rhaenyra laugh. So those are the four things he does all the time. Joe. Career goals. The Kristen death part. We talked about this on Talk the Thrones, but let's hit it here as well. How did this actual death on screen measure up to you? To what we got in the book? What feels right about it? What maybe didn't quite hit the mark for you? And do you want to read the iconic passage for the bad babies? But long leave the lion slayer said. And you're like, who? Don't worry about it. I'll want three more. And up on the ridge, red Rob Rivers. Who? And two of his archers raised their long bows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking coal in belly, neck, and breast. I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse. Still think it's one of the best lines in the entire canon. No songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. I don't know why we couldn't have gotten it in the episode. Sorry. It would have been really good. I don't know why we couldn't have gotten it. Our listener James says, If they weren't going to include the no songs for you taunt, then Roddy and Oscar could at least roasted him about his stupid looking hat from season one. Oh, interesting. Thank you, James, for remembering that. Pat, our listener Pat wrote this great long email, but he was like, For my part, if we feel that Cole's death is anticlimactic for not getting that anticipated line of dialogue from Fire and Blood, maybe that's thematically a good choice. In the book, Cole, I expect I'll get a song. I expect I'll get a song out of this. Paid of Longleaf, LOL, no. Show, book readers, we expect we'll get Longleaf's line out of this. Ryan Condal, LOL, no. So, yeah. But instead, it's Black Alley Blackwood, a character that has not been named and has not had a line of dialogue, so is just like, just a cool looking woman. And like, you know, is it interesting that Kristen Cole, noted misogynist, dies at the hand of a woman? Sure. Would I like her to have been a character of someone? Of some kind? Yes. Sure. Yes. Or just a rando? Like, you know what I mean? There's like, there's like a weird, like, if it had just been like an anonymous archer in the sidebrush, that would have worked better for me than like a character that we book readers know is a named character, but the show is not bothered to make a character. I agree. And so either like fully anonymous or make her a character that show watchers know who that is at the end of the day, you know? I agree. I do think that subbing Black Alley, for Red Rob is, is, is fitting in certain respects, but, and also just like the idea that Kristen, who, you know, is making this big grand speech last week about how I am the greatest, the realm's greatest warrior. Mr. Self-proclaimed, I am the realm's greatest warrior being felled by a, who? Is the point, as you noted, and is effective. I think that on the show, we just need a little, like a scene or two, which is all we've gotten, as we talked about, kind of in anticipation of this, this moment, all we'd, we thought it was going to be Roddy. All we'd gotten with Roddy, and I think that actually would have been enough, like a scene or two, have Black Alley say a couple lines when they're doing the fish feed song. She participated in the fish feed song. Like the camera lingers on her. We got excited, but like. Would have gone a long way. Have her in the tent with Roddy and, and Oscar as they're like talking about strategy or something like that. Just like give her a couple lines or not and just have it be a rando. But this was like a weird middle ground that didn't work either way. Though. Again, I've heard from a lot of non-book readers that they were like, oh, I didn't see it coming and I was surprised and I thought it was cool. Great. I've also heard from some book readers who were like, I liked it. It worked for me. And I think that's, that's fine too. How did not knowing anybody else on Kristen's side impact this for you? Like, I think all the Gwaine-Kristen stuff was pretty good though. As you said, it got like a bit repetitive at the end of the day. Why, if Sir Edgar was going to be like our Gwaine stand-in for this moment, like give him some character work in the earlier episodes of the season, why not? You know? Yeah. I think that that's part of most of the notes on this episode. And I say this to be clear with the self-awareness to say, I've never made a season of television and certainly not one that's involved. Yes. There are plenty of things where we're like, man, this didn't quite work. What is the solve? I think things like this, like the solves seem apparent. Are there balancing acts? And reasons why they would have been difficult to achieve? Certainly. Well, exactly. And we talked about this a little bit on Talk the Thrones. It's just sort of like, would I sacrifice any of the Darren and Orman, you know, emphasis that they made, you know, the character building stuff that they've done over there to get more character building stuff in the Riverlands? No. Are there other things I would have cut? Maybe. But like, I understand that they made certain choices of where they were devoting their attention and they chose Tumbleton. And I think it's working fabulously. And I think it's a little bit too of like what happens in a vacuum of one scene and storyline and then what feels like maybe a larger creeping thing if this had been who's do we care about sir edgar do we know any other people just that i don't know that i would have bumped on it as much but also it's true that we don't have any relationship with or feelings for the gold cloaks who hand over their cloaks to damon etc etc right so there's actually quite a bit in this episode that's resting on people we don't know hot heterochromia guy we'd gotten two moments with previously and that's not a lot for a scene that that massive as the damon one but it actually like i would at least was like i i've seen this person but i don't know anything about why he cares about this and i would argue that most people watching the show you know who don't listen to three-hour podcasts or whatever or like who is that guy don't know right like not even don't remember him from his scene in the high tower green in the previous episode right but you don't even connect him to the guy who sent the pigeon last week and you know what i mean sure like the heterochromia is like a good is a good marker but i don't know that people are watching yeah yeah and that's an interesting thing in general because i will say my my relationship to that type of thing more broadly without sounding like an asshole about it is i'm like i don't mind we've talked about this before i don't mind when shows want to make us work hard yes i think that shows demanding that we pay attention and knowing that they are presenting us with a text that is so complex yes and nuanced and and and entangled in a fun way right like you're gonna you can't be looking at your phone while you're watching house of the dragon i think that's great that's part of what i love about it right that when it demands your attention it will reward your attention yeah that's okay the we need to actually like know who these people are and have had had time with them and i think that was just a little bit off in this episode you know who we do now hmm everybody on the black small council and i'd say this is the opposite problem where we've heard them have these exact debates a lot of times i don't know because like what i will say is that versus some of the other small council like iron rod you know like you know like there are just other members of the previous small council that like nobody knew who they were but i think they've done a good job we know who orwell is massaria is oh yeah the fray is who tore him i know that's not the point you're making but i think they've done a good job we know who orwell is massaria is i understand you're like the sameness of the conversation but like i just want to give them their flowers that like they've filled every chair on that council with someone that i like understand who they are and their motivations and the in general interaction in those sequences this season i think has actually been delightful highly entertaining even something like in this episode damon throwing the goblet at torrent torrent and making talking about his indigestion was hysterical this scene included the prophecy thing which was the most confound one of the most confounding things the show has done in its entire run and certainly the most confounding decision of the season and really bugged me so that took me out of the scene entirely and i don't mind admitting that i think that this scene walks an interesting on a tightrope that i i'm intrigued by this balancing act because one of the things in episode three which we considered immensely successful and accomplished that we really loved was that episode three made a decision to do the what was aragorn's tax policy episode right what does it really look like to sit there and rule and have to make these decisions and part of the answer to that is that you don't just talk about it once right so i i that's true you're gonna have to keep having the same conversation every day there's a new decision you don't just check something off your to-do list if you're ruling the seven kingdoms and then move on that's a little different from massaria damon etc trading kind of the same like you're an idiot for this reason back and forth to each other and then a big like okay the air is out of the balloon because raniera invoked yet again my father would abhor it which i think just feels like going back to the story well one too many times for the scene to feel like it has momentum even if it has logical mooring in what it would be like to be in that in that role and in that room i largely agree with you tricky i largely agree with you and i i want to mention um we were talking to a pal who is a showrunner yes over the weekend and he let us know that episode three raniera's sort of day in the life of ruling uh he's like showrunners call that the showrunner episode great stuff i which which i had never heard before but just sort of like an episode about what how hard it is to showrun and all the millions of you know they are asking you about the rats chewing the candles when you're a showrunner you have to like answer every single question all the time on set i thought that was a really fun insight and if you don't probably you're gonna hear about it later like raniera does when hearing petitions and then she's like i'll light a candle and they're like what candles raniera um anyway um yes i largely agree with you at the same time and i you know again i've never run a show so how do you do this but at the same time we were praising the show for showing us this like incremental change in raniera's demeanor and uh choices versus uh you know the bells uh for sure sort of um like a switch of the uh flip of the switch and so we want this sort of slow roll roll slow boil of a of a character making compromises after compromise after compromise i do think there are ways to your point to vary it so it's not just like massaria being like the people are hungry and being like the cops need to get paid you know what i mean like yeah because i i really do admire appreciate and want the examination of what it actually looks like to try to hold this thing together i think that the show's decision to show us that is crucial yeah so i don't want to talk out of both sides of my mouth with it i think that it's again a matter of the show has actually shown us a number of times this season how well it can do that and so this this sequence here just like didn't quite work out quite measure up to that how do you feel about tumbleton on the on the to two weeks not the tomorrow on the on the two weeks anything that has anything to do with tumbleton is working for me gotta say tumbleton on the morrow not on the morrow not on the morrow in two weeks yep which would make it the finale that's right which feels right and that feels it does but it's just funny i just thought that was a funny sort of like in-universe thing it does a lot of the travel times i will say for all the sets of characters to be like the riverlanders are two weeks away from tumbleton and then like other characters are zooming around without dragons but um yeah yes you know yeah that's fine i just thought it was like a cute sort of like well this is an update on where we are yeah we'll get to tumbleton in two weeks don't worry speaking of tumbleton raniera you know who had spent a couple episodes saying what is what is orman trying to do has started to really see orman's intentions very clearly and raniera's read on it in this scene is correct and we will hear ormond voice his version of this later the bite by bite sequence right raniera's clocking it perfectly here he means to show the realm that i cannot govern even my own seat the great houses watch while he humiliates me now that is what ormond is trying to do he's either trying to invoke raniera into burning our own people the maegor returned or make raniera appear ineffectual and in either outcome ensure that the gold cloaks etc are to reluctant too trepidatious to continue fighting for her so raniera sees now how ormond is operating will that position raniera to challenge him effectively we'll find out but i think she's got his measure here interesting gamble for him because like if she just decides to torch tumbleton you know yeah ormond flambe which is what gawain says to him right he's like you call the bluff but then what you take a step yeah she burns you and it was that was that was also one of those satisfying moments where we bring our history across the canon in a way the character characters literally can't possess right ormond can't travel through time to see daenerys but when we hear him saying like she's a woman squeamish first of all that's a delicious ormond character beat because he's like he's the most squeamish yeah well that for sure and also he's like it's not even that he thinks um a ruler wouldn't burn their own people he just thinks a woman wouldn't have the balls to do it which is classic it's so funny when i was like danny ormond yeah it's just funny when i was like uh oh in case he was not repugnant enough yes we added homophobia to the mix we sure was like and misogyny i was like the misogyny has oh that's been here that's been that's a foundation now we're just building structures on top of it um we get the uh just genuinely iconic and hysterical indigestion moment which was wonderful and then a i think very puzzling thing happens well yes what happens before that that's a very puzzling thing because it's a very puzzling thing because it's a very puzzling thing because it's a very puzzling thing because it's a very puzzling thing well yes what happens before that that's a very puzzling thing because it's a very puzzling thing because though is when um when he's like i you know the the battle with indigestion thing i think that's interesting because alan's like hey i guess i've been to war sure this idea sucks yeah you know what i mean yeah alan's like you can't you can't fling that at me and alan has moved very quickly from i'm here even though i didn't want to be and i told my dad that into observing into offering counsel and sharing feedback and yeah like sabbath on and torin with their snide oh and a dragon oh and torin with their snide oh and a dragon oh and torin with their snide oh and a dragon oh which again like they're kind of right actually which again like they're kind of right actually which again like they're kind of right actually they're basically doing the hubris of control they're basically doing the hubris of control they're basically doing the hubris of control read of the tartans uh targaryens which is uh read of the tartans uh targaryens which is uh read of the tartans uh targaryens which is uh amusing but yeah And then, like, at the end of the scene later on when Damon is exiting and Alan is, you know, offering to basically solve the, wait, you guys went and did this without an army note from earlier in the season. He's like, I've got, let me help the Valarion men. Yeah. And Damon's like, fuck off. So, as usual, Team Black here needs, this small council really needs a corporate retreat. They've got some stuff to work through. And some of it should happen collectively. And I would say some of it should happen in private. Yeah. And that brings us to Damon invoking the prophecy in front of everyone in the room, which we should check out. Carlos, let's see this. You wait but a while longer. At what cost? Remember the prophecy, your sacred calling, whatever you do in its service is justified. Okay. No one will talk me out of thinking this makes no sense. I'm sorry. Has anyone tried? No. No. Joe, I don't get this. Did the show forget that this was a secret? Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and House of the Dragon kind of forgot that this was a secret? Like, I'm really struggling with this. It is canon that other characters don't know about this. It's canon in the wider story universe and it's canon inside of the show. Right? Season one finale. We have to watch Rhaenyra and Damon have this horrifying, abusive interaction because Viserys didn't tell Damon. Ruler. To air. Right? We watch later on the precipice of Rook's Rest, Rhaenyra share the prophecy with Jace and say, there's something I need to tell you, Jace. Something I should have told you when you first became heir to the throne. It's a secret! Right. And we've been wondering, like, when and if and how she's going to spend any time with her sleeping son, Joffrey. Maybe she'll whisper it in his ear while he's dreaming. While he's sleeping. Yeah. Or maybe, like, write in a little scroll and tuck it under the pillow. But, yeah. It is a. It is a. A deep-dyed, dark secret. And Damon just saying it at the table. Do you think it's because he took that, like, ayahuasca trip in Harrenhal and he's like, I saw it. I saw a vision. Maybe everyone should know about it. Maybe. But they need to say that. They need to say that Damon thinks other people should know about the prophecy for him to say that. Right. Or, if he's going to do that, this is what's even more baffling to me from, like, a TV creation. No one's like, what prophecy? Yeah. No one's like. And Rhaenyra doesn't even have, like, a huge. Reaction. Shut the fuck up, Damon. I can't believe you fucking said that. Or a conversation with Jace. Or a conversation with him later where she's like, you just said the secret prophecy at the table. What's wrong with you? Like, the episode is acting like it's no big deal that Damon just dropped this highly secretive prophecy at the middle of the table. It's not even, like, it's not even that, like. Right. It's not even, like, oops, Damon the Impetuous, like, blurted out a secret. It's, like, nobody's like, what prophecy? And Rhaenyra's like, fuck you in your big mouth. Like, you know, Steve Lacey on the red carpet of Spider-Man. You know, like. Yeah, it's just kind of impossible to understand. Yeah. And also, as we talked about at the beginning of this series, this is a. The introduction, the idea of Aegon the Conqueror's dream, the Song of Ice and Fire, this prophecy that is passed down. We're like, okay, wait. So, interesting. When we think about the larger Song of Ice and Fire story universe, when and where and how was this lost? We've been doing a lot of, like, book theory section, spoiler section speculation about that along the way. This is one of those scenes that. In addition to everything you just outlined, all of which is extremely valid. There's kind of no explanation for this many people hearing this. And then the information not spreading further. We're in a room full of gossipers and tea spillers and the mistress of whisperers and spiders. Thorin Manorley can't wait to tell everyone. Exactly. Who's. How is Massario going to use this information? Or while. Who's. As the Grand Maester, his accounts of these. Historical events are one of the foundations on which a text like Fire and Blood, the accounts inside of it are based. Or while never follows up on this or tells anyone. This never makes it into Fire and Blood. It just doesn't make sense. And so it's the kind of choice. This is part of what really threw me with the episode overall. A lot of these other things, I'm like, eh, we have a note, but you can get past it. This is the kind of thing that gives me a larger sense of, like, unease. And I hope it is an outlier in the season. I also think it was strange. In a similar note, not nearly so high stakes. I'm not. I feel less, like, world-shaken about it than you do, but I support how much it's rocked you. I just have PTSD, I think. I felt similarly about Jane Aaron lecturing Reyna about the secrecy of her identity and, like, being in the Vale in front of a bunch of courtiers. Do you know what I mean? Same. She might have faith. She might have faith in her people being, like, rock solid. But, like, if she's so scared about what's going to happen when Rhaenyra finds out that Reyna's there, that she slapped a dragon rider, you know what I mean? A Targaryen princess. Fucking crazy. Yeah. Yeah. In front of so many people and her dogs. Her loose-lipped dogs. And they can't keep their mouths shut. They're barking all over the place. Come on. So. Yeah, I had the same thought on the Jane Aaron thing. It's just. That falls into the bucket to me of a character-making. A choice that isn't sensible. That's, like. And the show-making a choice that isn't sensible. If you're so worried about detection, go have that conversation in private. You want to have. You even want to do something as risky and reckless as having Reyna brought to you, don't do it in the high hall. It's. They're like, we just built the one set, though. Empty the hall. Yeah. But, like, the fact that that's the reason is, like. Yeah. I mean, the mural looks great. Yeah, it does. Getting to hear the fading scream through the moon door. Really fun. We love it. We love. We love to be there. We love to be in the Eyrie. Should Jane Aaron have done that? Absolutely not. Okay. Daemon cites the Field of Fire here. Mm-hmm. And Rhaenyra, this is where she says, yeah, but my father would abhor it. Abhor it. Abhor it! But, Jo, Rhaenyra's not suggesting doing nothing. Mm-mm. Wants to send assassins, not dragons. Wants to send knives. Now, this is smart, right? We're a couple episodes removed from. We'll send our overman and root them out house to house, so the idea of how this will all go, is evolving in real time. But still, Rhaenyra is looking for solutions to address the problem, right? Not be passive, be active, address the problem, but do it without burning Tumulton. Rhaenyra is seeking that kind of path. And Daemon's like, great, I'll go. She's like, not you, Daemon. Incredible. And I like that Rhaenyra is also sort of. He's like, but I want to play dress-up. And she's like, you can play dress-up at home. He does. In the streets of King's Landing. And barely tuck your Targaryen hair up under the helmet. I know. You can really see his hair. Everybody's. And this is Mr. Murdercloak. Like, he's the master of. Disguise. Hugh Hammer abducts a cart from a man who has a hat. And he's like, nope, just platinum hair out as I infiltrate Tumulton. Everybody's got some work to do on the disguise front. And I would say Tumulton on the security front. The fake Baratheons and Hugh getting in back to back. It's tough. And they're like, we've got our little book that we're writing things in. Unbelievable. So the most effective assassin has a plain face. This is what Rhaenyra says to Daemon, which. And isn't this the problem? Because Gwaine's like, not hot enough. That's right. Too plain of a face. That's not what she means. She means a forgettable face. I know how comely this other guy is. Interesting kind of the mirror to Ormund's tactics, right? The idea of using the incognito, just out in flea bottom citizens of King's Landing to avoid detection. I thought that kind of mirror was interesting. Faceless men. Faceless men? Not literally. Not literally. Yet. I mean, a lot of people are. Many people are theorizing that there are faceless men involved in this. I don't think that's what's going on here. Yeah. Adam has been asking me that the last couple weeks. Are the faceless men part of how all these gold cloaks are being killed? So I think I understand why. No, yeah. The theory has been out there. I just. I don't think. I think that actually undercuts Ormund's intelligence and powers of persuasion and sort of the overall message of people can be bought. Right. And that sort of stuff. Yes. I do like the idea that there are people inside of the gold cloaks that were turned. Sure. Because not only were. These cops were killed in their HQ. The feast for traitors. Like, those guys were all killed. You know, so like, it feels like slightly like an inside job. Yeah. Interesting. I have no information on that. I'm just. A note I'll have for Damon later, by the way, on that front is if you're trying to rally the troops, don't do it in the murder den. Near where all the guts were. I'm sure it still stinks like fresh death in there. That wasn't his, like. That wasn't his plan. His plan was to have a sad boy moment. And then, uh-oh, everyone quit. Our listener Jane on the Wave Watch front. Yes, tell me. said, Oh!. as her rule and paranoia become more and more difficult and pronounced. I defer to you on this. I haven't tracked it. I'm noting the, like, sort of labyrinthine little braid she's got in the back of her hair. Interesting. Interesting. So you're noting. So you're noting the labyrinthine braid. Would you also have noted how many swords to the man you had if you were in this position? Curious. Curious about this. I ask you because. No. You wouldn't. I think you would. I think if every single meeting you had with your council involved, where's my army, you would know how many swords you had. But that is not the case here. Rhaenyra's like, how many Valarian swords do we still have? And Alan has to. Mallory, I don't read emails. You know this about me. That's true. You know that I would ask that question, and you would be like, Joanna, we've only said it in every meeting. It's fine to ask the question. you would have asked it earlier you would have maybe you would have maybe Raniera wants Alan to go ask Corliss for more Valarian men and that will go great as we will see later Corliss is gonna be thrilled someone else is at the red keep though I mean yeah Alan is about the people to reach Corliss in a very effective way yeah even though he doesn't think he can Alan Adam Bela those are the three people she probably could have sent Bela's like I'm busy I've got my own burdens and also some other stuff to do so is Alan they're both getting quite busy House Baratheon is back Jo so this is a payoff there have been Baratheon mentions in multiple episodes in the middle stretch of this season we had the episode four mention Bull John bringing the letter oh they're excuses right and then we had the Ormond moment with Darren in episode five oh Boris Baratheon himself you're the sign he's been waiting for okay the Baratheons are here great it's great to see them they're not getting involved because Boris Baratheon is like I'm gonna do this thing where I sit out this dance of dragons and we'll see where the chips fall I'm busy in Dorne Dorne's still in the mix I did really love the spice and the strength that Rhaenyra showed here to say why is Boris taking this bandit more seriously than me as a threat right that's like yeah tell them that this is bullshit tell them this is not acceptable encouraging with the Targaryens however it's always worth us tracking when we tip into a rule through fear place and how scary and dangerous that is well like why why I mean I not sound like Daemon Targaryen but why else have six dragons if you're not gonna send a dragon to go like you know this is the thing toast the tops of Storm's End or go over to Casterly Rock and squeeze them for some money you know what I mean like why are we not extorting this is the eternal conundrum because and this is part of again the tragedy Rhaenyra and Tiam Black is in this place and we will hit this note yet again many times throughout this episode why are you giving your supporters what you need the original appeal to Boris at the end of season one he's like I'm gonna go with Aemond who brought me a hand for marriage I'm not gonna go with and the bigger dragon yeah he's that much bigger he parked Vhagar outside in the rain that was such a cool shot yeah I'm not gonna go with Luke who came here and said sorry sir I'm already betrothed and also here's a letter from my mom telling you exactly what you have to do and he's like I can't read exactly remember earlier in the season when everyone was like try some pictures what a dickhead that was incredible this made me think a little bit of Rhaenyra and and Daemon and the and then there betrothal episode season one episode seven talking about like tyranny basically I will not be a tyrant I will not rule through terror Rhaenyra said and Daemon replied a tyrant rules only through terror if a king isn't feared he is powerless if you were to be a strong queen you must cultivate love and respect yes but your subjects must fear you we talked about this at the time the Viserys not Viserys house of the dragon game of thrones Viserys shadow of a snake Viserys in thrones who can rule without wealth or fear or love as he's like completely just disintegrating right and then we think of Dany you're a dragon be a dragon the Olenna pep talk but then all right then let it be fear was the tipping point of no return this feels like something to watch with Rhaenyra but when she stood up to the Baratheon envoys I was like yeah fucking tell them they're wrong kind of but like I mean all she got for it was some some costumes give me your belt yeah give me your belt is a great line by the way in terms of give me your clothing like that's a really fun way to write that you think this is gonna go over well with the Baratheons when they find out what exactly Rhaenyra used those they're busy fighting the vulture king who the fuck cares and at least she didn't kill any Baratheons but like here's the deal if okay if we're not toasting the tops of Storm's End yeah can we at least not just like continually fly our like Adam and Bela as you're searching for Vhagar make sure you always fly over Storm's End menacingly and you say real nice castle there'll be a real shame if it melted like Harrenhal you know what I mean I like this yeah so that's like you know just the threat not the actual toasting I like this maybe instead this is how I would rule instead I was gonna say this is eliminating folks instead of letting Hugh and Ulf share their shifts and alternate shifts for Tumbleton send one of them sure but she's got like plenty Daemon you're so in my way Daemon wants to go out there go toast some castles he wanted to do that she's like stay here and fix this inside our gates they're a mess here's the thing you know about me do I read emails no but would I be better at diplomacy than Rhaenyra yes oh you'd be elite elite I know Jace-esque how to make friends you do keep them as a common question so like so make friends with Boros Baratheon make friends with Lady Joanna Lannister like make well I mean your dream absolutely to be besties with her I don't want to be friends with Boros Baratheon he seems like a if I need something from him I'll do it and she does she needs something from him she sure does she sure does oh man this is Rhaenyra's whole thing and this is the Targaryen's whole thing this entitlement to rule and for her it comes with this added side sauce of divine right you know boy I'd say it's gone from being an added sauce to the brew itself the whole fucking cauldron yeah speaking of Joanna this very beautiful transition this very question how to earn loyalty and this is a great through line of the episode we have the literal desertion of the gold cloaks with Daemon shortly but this general assessment this has been a central focus of the season how do you earn loyalty in the first place how do you keep it are you even conscious of needing to work to keep it and to maintain it but also like what is it worth in its different forms if it's just a pledge a vow can you count on it does somebody who has given you their loyalty actually care about the same thing that you do genuinely your cause this is a mistake I think that Daemon and Rhaenyra and Orman and Aegon all of the people all of the ruling elite make all the time right in the story intentionally this gets us back to like one of our favorite Jorah ideas like they they don't has it rained you know well I mean and similarly I would say like the Lannister yes rule you know what I mean no question Baratheon rule but like but like when when Tywin's around Tywin who's essentially their Vhagar or whatever like when Tywin's around how are Tywin's toe beans show us your toe beans Tywin Lannister do you think Vermithor and Silverwing show toe beans to each other no question you know what I would love delighted to get the nuzzle between those two Vermithor and Silverwing as Ulf and Hugh do their changing of the guard on you know sad sack hill like beautiful there by the way when Vermithor and Silverwing they don't even have like a tent they're just like sleeping in the rough you know what I mean when Vermithor and Silverwing greet each other and they're like and Vermithor and Silverwing a mated pair they belong to good queen Alisanne and Jaehaerys right so like they've been together for like a century so you know what I kind of for me sweet Silverwing nope that's a you that's a you thing but that being said yeah given that I believe that dragons are cats of course in addition to the nuzzle I would like a little grooming a little shared grooming a little lick why not no come on come on the perfect height for kissing come on yeah not too tall for kissing speaking of which hot pies hot pies the hot pies was delightful off off dreaming of hot pies off dreaming of the farmer's market market day I loved this I love I do I do miss my hometown farmer's market I need to get into the LA farmer's market scene it's a robust scene I know there's a lot for you to discover I know it's just not as pastoral as as the one that I love I love the one that I love the ones I left behind but it's not but I'll I'll find my way I believe you will thank you I believe you will a little existential crisis and some commentary on class advancement or the lack thereof from our guy Ulf here all the things they used to take for granted I loved loved loved this conversation between Ulf and Hugh and I loved this reflection from Ulf because he Tom Bennett the performance has been so entertaining the whole way and Ulf is such a consistent source of humor there was something deep and sincere that he was posing here right and we have tracked throughout the season his budding or something like I can't live in a title right this has been present and mounting the thing that he says here but we're not the same are we and you think he's gonna say like our dragons and our glory what Hugh actually will say right when he reunites with Kat using reunites extremely loosely and generously there we weren't in service back then right so very Chris and Cole of him yeah yes we weren't you know we weren't we didn't have the queen being like your belly belongs to me right your body belongs to me but also like and this is something we've been tracking all season and just like in general in the Westerosi world but like this idea of I'm thinking a lot about the monkey's paw idea because we covered obsession on rewatchables right careful what you wish for but careful what you wish for has been something we've always tracked from the very beginning of Thrones from Bran. And dreaming of being a knight and Sansa dreaming of being the queen and all these other things is just sort of like, what is this idealized version of what are you dreaming of? What tales have you been told of chivalry and courtly romance and all these other stuff? And then what is the harsh reality? Arya, you got your sword, but what do you have to do with it? Like all of these devastating things that happen to especially the Stark children as sort of like, you know, because who gives a shit about Joffrey's dreams? But like, you know, the Stark children as this idea of like we're raised in the sort of the bubble of Winterfell in this sort of like kind, gentle, not you, Jon, but like other the other Stark kids like this sort of kind, gentle, you know, upbringing. And let's talk about the old tales and all this, you know, thanks, you know, and and then getting out into the wider world. The wider world and especially down to King's Landing and finding out the truth of it. Right. So like Reyna in this episode saying, I dreamed of having a dragon and now I'm separated from everyone I ever wanted. Can't even see my sister. Hugh and Ulf were like, we were already, we were, we're Targaryen bastards. And all our lives we probably thought, what if I wasn't a Targaryen bastard? What if I was, you know, a full-blooded Targaryen dragon rider? And here it is. Here's the answer. And you don't get your wife. No. You're going to ask to carry the name Targaryen and the queen's going to laugh. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't even get to have a pint with your buds. The lads. You get fucking. Not an hour with the lads. Slapped down on the street. Beaten into the fucking open sewers. Oh, yeah. For all to see by Damien Targaryen. The open sewers that the production design is very proud of. They look good. Yeah. They look great. They did look good. You know, so that's, that's just like. Yes. You know, and, and at least bring it all the way up to the top. Rhaenyra. Right. I'm going to sit on the Iron Throne and the Iron Throne's like, actually, I'm going to cut the shit out of you. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So like. I did really love, I mean, as always, Emma Darcy is just so thoughtful and profound in discussing Rhaenyra's arc and the description of, let me find the quote, the description of the throne as hostile. I think Rhaenyra perceives it as part of a broader hostility. I think she experiences the throne and the crown and council, the sort of vestiges of leadership as hostile. You finally got there and that's how it feels. Yeah. Monkeys. Pop. Great shout. It is interesting, like the, the through lines and consistency there in terms, in the characters who are in these radically different positions, their circumstances now, but their histories to your point. I think the show has done a very good job of exploring that. Rhaenyra and Alicent. Time to discuss Escape Gate. Boy, their scenes were intense this week. Targ guards, torches in hand. Find Alicent. And Helena in the tunnels. So that was not, the getting locked and lost in the tunnels at the end of last episode was not about actually imperiling them. It was about outing the escape. Isn't that, and that's, it's a cut directly from the Alicent hanky blowing in the wind to them in the tunnels, right? Yes, this is a, yes, it's an earlier discovery at the very beginning of the episode after Butcher's Ball. Rhaenyra is flat out dismayed that her prisoners are not more grateful to her for the nature of their relatives. Yes, it's a relatively luxurious confinement and for her merciful hosting. I'm sorry, I'm a little bit on Rhaenyra's side here. I'm on, I'm on Alicent's side firmly because Rhaenyra reneged on the agreement, full stop. They had an agreement! For Aegon, the usurper, head on a pike. Wasn't Alicent's fault and she got them to lay down their, she got the Hightower soldiers to lay down their arms. Rhaenyra took the castle, she got Aemon to leave. What else could she have possibly done? What else could she have done? Oh, they're in a castle and they've got people attending to their every needs and they get to go out in the garden. Like, these are, these are golden handcuffs, honestly. Outrageous. These are golden handcuffs that go, just lightly toast Storm's End. What an insight into your policy. Just like two or three on the toaster, you know what I mean? Okay, yeah, like, so we barely, it's not even going to be really crunchy. No, no. Just like a light caramel sort of. We're warming it, we're warming it. Yeah. Just so the butter can melt. Yeah. And the knife can, you know, the knife can slide across it. Okay, so you are, is it, is this fair to say you are and have always been when Kristen, um, and after, you know, the march toward, through, okay, we're collecting Rosby, Stark, Dusk, G'day, marching toward Rook's Rest, middle of season two, the old, uh, you should thank me for it. You were like, exactly. No, because he's team green. And I'm team black. You're the best. The best. Alicent reveals what she can no longer even attempt to hide from Rhaenyra here, right? Helena is pregnant. Tough. Fascinating sequence here. Thought this was great. Rhaenyra is quite wounded that Alicent thinks that she would be a baby killer, a half-sister killer. She says, still you insist on misjudging me. And then, as Alicent notes, the inevitable. The possibility of this, the endless challenges, what will become necessary. Rhaenyra moves fairly quickly inside of this scene from taking great, not, like, totally unreasonable, uh, offense, given that they've known each other for the bulk of their lives, into pretty quickly proving Alicent's point. Has to answer the escape. Has to more strictly confine them. I mean, she's already had the idea to send assassins after Darren. It's not assassins after Ormen, it's assassins after Darren. Yeah. Gonna cut that kid in half. Yeah. Gonna cut him in half. I didn't, and now I must, Rhaenyra says. I didn't, and now I must. She cannot be seen. If she is known to carry a ganser, I will be forced to do what you fear. So this language of, and it's not, it's not untrue, the reality of the position, the reality of the challenges, the reality of what the realm will require, of what my supporters will require, will lead us to this place. But that is, of course, the point Alicent has been making the entire season. Which Alicent reminds her of in this episode. Doesn't go super great. Alicent uses the word cruel here. Feels very purposeful, given that we've been talking about Maegor the Cruel a lot this season. Rhaenyra the Cruel. And Rhaenyra has invoked this Maegor returned concern. Mm-hmm. I thought that line, when Alicent's like, well, I'll accept, I will accept this judgment, but Helaena, Helaena, Helaena. Rhaenyra saying, my judgment does not require your acceptance, was bone chilling. Just, but also kind of baller, honestly. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, that's right. Working to cement her undeniable authority. Season two, episode two was called Rhaenyra. The Cruel. I was like, the Herald, little auto PR tour with baby baseball neck. But that can't be a, that can't be a future episode title name. They've already used it, but. That's right. That's right. Yeah, listen, Rhaenyra, I'm rooting for you. I agree, I agree. I think that Rhaenyra saying, my authority is not going to be challenged, is like heartening to see. We are just in such a perilous position. I've just also seen you type that into Slack, like constantly. My judgment does not require your acceptance. You don't look at Slack. That's true. I do eventually, just like usually a couple hours later. How do you feel about your new avatar? Great. How do you feel about it? Wonderful. Yeah. It's always an exciting moment. Every two years. Yeah, because you really commit when you make the change. Yeah, it was Simon Strong for two years. It was Lyman Beesbury for two years. And now it's Torrin Manderly's turn. He got there quickly. He got there quickly, but I think he deserves it. I usually, I think you know this about me. You fall. You fall fast. No, I usually pick my favorites like before the season started. That's right. Like when Simon Russell Beale was like in the trailers, I was like, this is my guy. You were. And Bees, I was early too as well, so. Beautiful Bees. Sweet Bees. We miss them still. I play my flag on Torrin Manderly. Dodger of goblets, you know? He did dodge that goblet. First of his name. Oh, Damon, you petty brat. My God. My God. Rene was like, let me just remind you that my entire court thinks you're the enemy. And to you, do not try me. Allison being like, we were girls together. Remember? Allison listens to the pod. I think it's clear. We were girls together. I think it's clear. Masaria doing some, I would say, not super subtle ass covering here. Masaria, who fancies herself a woman of the people. That's right. Is like, that servant, kill her. Listen. You can only be a woman of the people. You can only be a woman of the people as long as it suits you. Sure. And allows you to dunk on Damon. Yeah. Once you are at risk and you have some loops to close, you gotta kill the handmaid. Okay. So, I say, lightly torch the top of a building. You say, maids. And also, the Riverlanders who died for theater, they should die. Boy, really brings out the bloodlust inside of us all. This show. I did make a comment on Masaria's clothing in 2013. Like, we got some emails of people being like, noting that Masaria is sort of just like looking fancier and fancier every week. And I do think it's like, you know, dress for the job you want. Like, you know, that's true. But like, I think it's worth noting, again, that like the woman of the people is just sort of like, but some fine silk robes for me. Also, a question in general is just sort of like, we're having a money flow problem. Are there some things we could do? Sell in the castle to, you know, pay the cops if we need to? Here's the thing. everything they could have sold they burned everything they could have sold everything they could have put on eBay burned in a giant bonfire do you want a vintage Targ Tower sigil banner they're not here anymore but if you're a collector don't you want this Targ Tower banner they could have made a killing on eBay what a great call Senoya Mizuno plays Misaria pregnant during the season and I think that accounts for some of the different clothing that she's wearing they're hiding like Helena they're hiding her pregnancy Misaria's hiding her secrets too and Runeira doesn't pick up on it I liked the jaw working you could see the jaw muscle working on Misaria did Allison did anyone else did Allison mention did anyone else you had no reason to suspect I was like this is Misaria get it together is that what you're like on coke what I just saw there I've never done cocaine I don't think I should be allowed to do cocaine I would be like Greg in the Prague episode of Succession just like I hope you don't die I would literally explode you have to understand Maryland Terrapin family so I grew up on on on on Lembaya stories no cocaine for me I don't know anything about that I don't know anything about that interested in plenty of other things but not cocaine I don't know anything you just said let me know if you want to do mushrooms at some point I was offered mushrooms recently at a party and I was like this doesn't feel like the moment but everyone it was just seemed like they had to become a very normal thing they're the chocolate oh I didn't yeah oh you're familiar new to me I'm from the Bay Area new to me outside of having seen that episode of the studio new to me I have follow-up questions I'll ask you later okay great I look forward to taking this off mic and having a thank you for telling me about mushrooms incredible gold cloaks hand it over the cloaks Damon just hanging out I don't think my nephew listens to these podcasts I hope he just he just listens to the Odyssey podcast I hope don't do drugs you're the cool aunt though don't do drugs I mean I don't know cops don't talk about some cops Damon hanging out in the feast for traitors murdered and the gold cloaks arrive some of them and Damon vows to avenge this atrocity even if it takes a hundred years here's the rub nobody he's talking to has a hundred years they've got knives to dodge in sketchy alleyways and they've got kids and families to feed mistaking your cause for the thing that's most important to the people you need continues to be a challenge the problem is that Hightower had a chromia hottie killed like the most loyal of the cops you know what I mean and Damon's like I gave you these gold cloaks and these guys are like here we'll give it back to you they're like you were doing keg stands with Sir Luther but not with me and the audience at home is like yeah I don't know you either yeah never heard of you I don't know you either I saw you in a scene though I do like that they picked an older guy so like in theory he could have been part of Damon's regime earlier sure says find another way to make coin so Damon part of his like desperate attempt here to keep them is well what are you going to do when the blades who've been killing your fellows come for your children when the cutthroats come for your family for your wives and we get that kind of close to the I'll find another way to make coin which I think made me at home nervous that I would hope made Damon nervous I hope he's thinking this way oh could you could you possibly mean the coin from Ormond with King Darren's face printed on it because Joe that solves both those problems Darren Dollars is that a thing let's go with let's go with Darren Dimes because Danny Dimes Daniel Jones is one of the quarterbacks that George has blogged about over the years okay Danny Dimes and so I think Darren Dimes got it it's the way to go uh that solves it all you're not gonna have to worry about Ormond's assassins if you're working for them and you have the money so that would be a concern I think for Team Black we'll see what's your counter Team Black what's your counter uh the counter is just a rousing speech and you know we got the the prior episode you know does the word of of uh Prince of Flea Bottom Rogue Prince still carry the weight it used to and Damon was really riding high for him and I'm thinking yeah I've still got it yeah it does and here it's like oh real record scratch maybe not it's not enough it's not enough to just grant them with your presence and make a speech and hope that they can wait a hundred years they're not gonna here we are Alan not enough more convincing not enough either for Corliss to be like um I did love that Alan said the thing that we were all saying a couple weeks ago when Corliss was like and I don't know if you recall this but he was like your son was a bastard remember that in broad daylight oh my god yeah were there more witnesses were there more witnesses to Corliss shouting your sons are bastards to Rhaenyra or more witnesses to Damon casually mentioning the prophecy I think if we're counting the dogs it's Jane Eyre and slapping Rhaena most witnesses um yeah so Corliss is like I don't want to send my men we're having too much fun killing pirates which was like half of the House of the Dragon episode was about like them singing the Bear and the Maiden Fair yeah there was a lot of stuff about the bonding via song and I was like we didn't see that it was like a second at the very end of the background I didn't even like notice I didn't clock that they were doing the Bear and the Maiden Fair at all and you know I always have my ears peeled for Bear and the Maiden Fair you do you do um so she asks more of me and then Alan says it is I who asks uh and then he's like okay do as you have said her needs are endless I really loved I mean Sierra Tucson's always great but the emphasis on endless the frustration the resentment how palpable that is but Corliss being like she won't even uh you know acknowledge you and Alan like all of us at home is like nor did you for my entire life yeah it's a good note it's a good bit of feedback and it does work in the moment and then he's like Tylan Lannister's alive and then we do nothing with that information I have questions and no answers so I assume that we will do something with that information because it would be crazy and then not to we can talk about some of the possibilities more later presumably Alan will share that and Team Black will send some troops to Rook's Rest I mean it would be like nuts not to try that after this was shared my response was more like Corliss knowing that as mad as he is he's throwing himself into his work he's moving these bodies by hand okay he knows we're one of the chief advisors and money men and these like political figures for the other side and didn't tell Rhaenyra that is like a big deal being guilted in real time is it a bigger deal than him just like leaving his job kind of because to kill a bunch of pirates I actually think I mean no I guess but kind of yes because to me this feels like a okay when he left and Alan was like what are you doing and Corliss says I can help more this way all that it's a problem and it speaks to the rift let's calm down we don't know when he found out that Tyler you think it was ten minutes ago from the pirates like right there maybe the pirates was like argh matey Tyler Lannister is alive you know something like that that would be the only acceptable version of it if he found out a second before this exchange with Alan because if he has known this information for days and no matter how mad he is and how he needs to get his escape and work through it to not send a raven with this update for Rhaenyra would be I mean it's it's treason let's just tell ourselves that he just found out alright I'm going to throw another question at you in real time here because you've put you've put the possibility that this is recent news in my mind how hot is Tylan Lannister digging a grave I'm excited to talk about that on the Tylan front if you are Tylan why are you letting all the Triarchy Pirates know exactly where you're going you think they just heard they just picked up on it maybe they're just like hey that guy who's wearing velvets and has made no like attempt to disguise himself that sure does look like Tylan Lannister yeah and he's got to be going in the direction of the one and only Rook's Rest could be perhaps Tylan okay let's hear your thoughts on the grave digging technique here please so I mean I just think he looks great he looked incredible Jefferson Hall action hero win like Bruce Willis and Die Hard sort of level of grime like the shirt sweaty hugging okay sweaty grimy oh sorry this is too much but this is fine gift that I was miming shivving oh sure you're saying because we're talking about Agon who loves a shiv loves a shiv let's our listener Sharif yeah says understanding the efficacy of shooting an actor as they are why doesn't Laris grow some stub as a disguise at least this is all about why doesn't Laris have a beard yeah our man is living in the woods lack of Matthew Needham with a rough ride is a failure of imagining Imagination. Guess what? I know about mushrooms, but today I learned the. phrase rough ride. I never heard that before. Incredible. This is a compelling email. A rough ride. Indeed. On Laris Strong. They have your attention. Matthew Needham was at Comic-Con and we didn't get to meet him. I know, sad. He like walked by our studio when we weren't there and we heard about it later. I know. Very upsetting. Oh boy. Wow. Okay, so Laris with a beard, you in? That'd be great. I agree. That'd be fantastic. I agree. Laris doing some great comedy work is always in this sequence when Tylan's like, the shovel is free. You know, Laris, dogs are gonna find Janice. Egon in the background just cleaning his nails. Could not have been funnier. Hysterical. Great stuff. These three kill me. Laris has found another cog. He loves the cog. The Dusk and Dale one Joe we've moved on. Yeah. The Maidenpool cog. They need to avoid detection for a few days. They can gather provisions. They'll be out before the full moon. They roll via, Laris kind of, he doesn't want to help dig the grave any deeper, so he kind of kicks Janice into this very shallow grave, right? So what will happen first? Will Alan share this intel and will Team Black send swords? Will the dogs or other people who are at work stress discover Janice? There are a lot of possibilities for our group here, but they have made a decision because Egon presents Tylan with a little test, Joe. I loved this. What did you think of this? Yeah, we already talked about it. Uh, as, as you mentioned, Egon character on an arc. Tylan fails, stammers his way through, sweatily, grimely stammers his way through a really bad answer. There is, in any of us, I venture must be admired and much to be deplored. Incredible. He was not media trained for this question at all. And Egon chooses to go with the guy who gave him the hard truth. Yes. Yeah. Which feels like character growth. The unflinching candor from Laris over the equivocation from Tylan. Sucks. You know, really something. Um, Essos bound those three. Oh, sure. Alice. Ratcheting up the flirting because Aemond wants to be bound for parts other than Harrenhal as well. This was interesting because we're going to get in a few scenes later to the dragon egg reveal. But this shot, we go to Harrenhal. We're looking at Aemond is like examining his wound in the mirror. And it looked in real time to me, I thought it looked like a kind of flaming egg, but I need glasses. So that might be why. It's possible. I just can't see. Did it look that way to you or did it look like a human, a human torso? Looked like it. I'll rewatch it though. With that in mind. For a red gaping wound on a flaming egg. Okay. So this is going to get some corrective, uh, corrective lenses. At some point, Aemond ready to leave. Alice doesn't want him to. Encourages him to, uh, think like the frog in winter, right? A frog in winter sleeps under the ice, still and silent. Mend your wounds, gather your strength. Let the world think you dead until the spring thaw. Wait it out. This is obviously metaphorical language, but what's going on with the weather? So many people are saying that there were a few flakes of snow in the Laris Thailand egg on scene. Interesting. Were there? I didn't see it. Um, I just said, I thought Aemond's body looks like a dragon egg on fire. So I'm not sure I could be, uh, relied upon to, but to clock a couple of flakes. I mean, obviously she's speaking metaphorically about a frog under an ice, but do you think she's also speaking like literally about the seasons, which would mean like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't in the parlance of Westeros a couple of years, right? Winter is coming. Yeah. Winter is coming and it lasts. Spring thaw. Interesting. Maybe, maybe she's seeking to, we've got a lot of, uh, blood magic possibilities and magical happenings to discuss short with shortly with Alice. So maybe she's factoring in the, the seasons and the connection to magic in the realm, uh, into her calculus here. It's entirely possible. Aemond's not interested in asking any of these questions, at least not yet. He's going to be, he's going to be pretty riveted shortly. He wants to find Vhagar, wants her to show him his toe beans. She would not have left me willingly and I'll not be without her. And you can see, we literally can see on Gale Rankin's face how quickly the cogs, the wheels are turning and Alice's mind here floats the idea. Maybe Vhagar flew off to protect you, to shield you. Moves closer to Aemond, does a little dragon math. It's getting sexy. It's getting flirty. It's getting hot. This is a just, much savvier way to appeal to Aemond and appeal to the dragon bond. And especially to link the seduction, you know, pairing the physical proximity and closeness with the acknowledgement of that bond. The opposite of how so many people have talked to Aemond, including his own mother, who he wants to fuck over his life about the obsession with those beasts. Alice is like, maybe the obsession with that beast is so special. Maybe she loves you so much and that's why she's not here. Smart. I really love Gale Rankin. Good stuff from Alice here. Delivery of, and where do you think to go? Just like, yeah, she's not, she's, you know, mothering him. She's babying him. Uh, where do you think to go? But like, yeah, the, she's, she's brilliant. She's a witch. She's hot. She's brilliant. I love her. I quite agree. Alice for president. Who should her running mate be? Jane Aaron's dogs. What a ticket. My God. Jane Aaron's dogs are currently busy, but we'll get back. We'll, we'll, we'll find out maybe what their, their platform might be, but they're observing this befuddling sequence that we've mentioned a few times already. So we see previously before the scene at the high hall in Erie, in the Erie, we see Raina back in her cave. I thought those blackberries looked delicious by the way. Here's some dragon screeches, looks out into the distance from the mouth of the cave and sees sea smoke and moon dancers. They're searching, they're prowling. Yeah. And then we have uncle niece pairing that have chemistry. Exactly. Tough. We get the brief Harrenhal interlude. And then we cut to the Erie where Jane is like just total psycho shit. Loving, you know, the screams and cries of Alice saying like fall all alone. Would you fall all alone or whatever to the guy screaming down out the moon door? Yes. We have many transitions like that across scenes. I know. And some of them are bad in that one. I kind of like, yeah, I agree. And she's like always a good time. Jane's soldiers have brought Raina. Who she slaps as we discuss here. And then they talk about a scene that we just didn't see. They talk about something that was not in the show, which is Raina deciding to quote, fly toward a town equipped with several thousand pairs of eyes, iron oaks. So we are meant to understand from that, that Raina actually got on sheep stealer and flew to try to find Bela. Is that your understanding of it? Yes. I don't mind that we didn't see this. I mind that. I don't know how a couple of veil guys just grabbed her from sheep stealer. And hauled her up to the Erie. Like, yeah, maybe she went willingly. I think there are a lot of questions. How did that happen? How many? How high up was she on sheep stealer? How close did she get? How many people down in iron and iron oaks saw like it raises a lot of questions. Who in the high hall might report this very conversation happening between Raina and Jane as we talked? It felt a little I don't think we needed to see the scene either. But it was as much of a like show. Don't tell. Like, we're just really telling kind of clunky flow and pacing thing as anything else in this episode. And I think compounded by the fact that, you know, you alluded to this line earlier, but this is where Raina says, I'm sorry, all my life I've yearned after a dragon and now I have one, but I've lost everything else, which is just Raina explaining and saying the same thing. Kind of, I think, inartfully. Yeah. Her entire arc across the series to that point. I do think on the human side, the emotional beats for the character to your monkey. From earlier, seeing the, you know, we saw this bold challenge to Damon, you know, a life of exile in the conversation a couple episodes ago from Raina. The proof here of how truly painful and anguish inducing it is to be separated from not only the realities of getting to like live and luxuriate in Targaryen might, but just to see any member of her family, to be around anyone she loves, to see how tragically sad that is for Raina. Do you think she would have enjoyed watching her sister have sex with her uncle? Like, do you think she wished she were around for that? Follow up question. I don't know if Raina strikes me as a peeper. Do you think it would be a good idea for, in general, for people to be inspired by House of the Dragon for their dating profiles? But I'm going to say no on that one. When Bela says, you're very dutiful. Yeah. And he says, I am the eldest. It must get wearisome attending to everyone else all the time. Attend to me, blah, blah. Yeah. Let's fuck. Yeah. You're very dutiful. Yeah. And you and I both flagged that as a sort of like, you know, sexually, would you like to serve? Can I top you? All this sort of stuff like that. Yeah. Do you think people should put in their dating profiles? Very dutiful. That I think so. Yeah. Is it a little odd to maybe make your dating profile a reference to an incest scene? Could be. But of all the incest we've seen. This one's among the least sexually interesting. I want more. Yeah. For Bela and Alan, these characters in this show and like for it's just must be you can't you can't dictate chemistry. You can hopefully cast for it, but you can't dictate chemistry. Right. And I wonder how much of a bummer it was for the writers to see the natural chemistry between Adam and Bela versus. But also, we've only seen Alan and Bela in like literally one other scene, maybe two. Yeah. A couple. Yeah. Just a couple. This comes out of nowhere, I think. Yeah. Unless the vibe is just sort of like, I want to blow off some steam. Except the actors have said that they're deeply in love. I thought those interviews seemed slightly maybe. I was like, was this answer supposed to go with a different episode? Right. Maybe. This is a season four answer. Because Bela going up, Alan finding Bela. Deeply in love. Nodding off at work, basically. And she's like, yeah, it's been tough. It's been taxing. I'm tired. You seem dutiful. Let's fuck. I could like, my day would improve with an orgasm or two. That, great. The idea that they have fallen head over heels for each other at this point in the story is not something we've really felt. On the Adam front, like it would be a little interesting if like she felt this for Alan while like Jace was still alive and she's engaged to Jace. Like if they had done any of that work, which they didn't do, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than you, you seem dutiful. Let's fuck. Let's fuck. So. So I think there's a chance that it was a little bit of the, of an own goal for the show on the Adam and Bela just clearly had more chemistry front, which we saw when they were out scouting. That's possible. I'm not totally, totally, uh, letting go of the possibility that maybe we're not done with that. Like, is there a chance that Adam is going to say that he has feelings for Bela? That could happen. Oh, I definitely think that could happen. Okay. Yeah. I don't think the chemistry is like, you know, there for no reason. It's just sucks that it's like. It's much more. Much more palpable. Yeah. Than anything that Alan and Bela have going on. What did, you made a very sound point, an observation earlier in the season that to that point, a few episodes ago, all of Alan's scenes had been about Corliss. I'd like to ask you how you're feeling about the fact that. Even Alan's sex scenes are also about his dad, because that's actually why he sought out Bela. He's like, can you help me with my dad? It's tough. The Valarians like to keep it in the family. It's always a family affair. Templeton. Gawain has arrived. He's dirty. And Orman will make some comments about how he needs a bath, but he's not. Nearly as filthy. As Baratheon. As the faux Baratheon assassins will be. Orman does have his pomander, his nostril tip, though, for this entire conversation. Pretty funny. And he tells Gawain, as they're discussing Kristen and the split between Gawain and Kristen, that he's going to fight on. Orman's like, you think I'm mad? I'm going to keep going. And he calls Gawain a coward who lacks imagination. And this is where we loved this moment. We talked about this on Talk of Thrones. Like, Orman turns as he's insulting Gawain to smirk at Darren. And Darren's sides of his lips go up a bit. And Gawain looks at him like, et tu? Really, dude? And Darren looks so ashamed. This is a perfect, everything about their respective relationships with each other and their shared dynamic was captured there really great. And even just the fact that you could see, because Darren is such a good boy still, and we will hear in the second part of this, seeing him voice to Gawain. Just like Sunfire. Sweet little. Sunfire. Just a cool boy. Just a cool boy. You do see how this consistent exposure to Orman and his abuse. Did you say, good boy, Darren, when he shoved a sword into an innocent man's chest? I'd have to think back. I think I said, oh, and Tessarian roasted the corpse, though. Get your snack. Hungry baby. Good boy. The way that, even though Darren is hyper aware of, how foul Orman is and how he doesn't like who he is when he's with him, you can see just that second there, like how the toxins from Orman could seep in. Yeah, it's working. This really captured a lot. Yeah, and like this idea that like he's play acting to keep himself safe, which he has, but at what point does the performance become, you know. We ask ourselves that at the end of every podcast. At what point does the performance become who you are? I'm always like this. So Orman says they have a, clear advantage when the fight will come to Templeton. And in the meantime, they're turning King's Landing against her. A lot of trailer lines in this sequence. And Gwaine's like, you sure about that? Freddie Fox is so good. It's so fun to have him in these scenes. He's like, where are all the great houses? We were worried that Gwaine was going to die at the Butcher's Ball, we should say. We were convinced that the reason that Gwaine went on the campaign in the first place with Kristen Cole, which he does not do in the book, was so that there would be someone, someone else at the Butcher's Ball that we cared about other than Kristen. Yeah. Which does not wind up being the case. But, Right. But I'm so glad he's alive. I'm so glad he didn't die at the Butcher's Ball. Same. And the show is so far off in a very good and welcome way from Gwaine's book storyline that we have like no idea where he's going. We have no idea what's going to happen to Gwaine at this point. We're having fun theorizing in the book spoiler section, but we have no clue. Join us in the book spoiler session. But like, we, you know, they could go any direction because they've just like really decided to do something different here. And that's great. And I hope it's because they saw, what they had in Freddie Fox and they're like, let's use him. But like adding him, like the Tumulton dynamic we already loved. Adding, adding Gwaine to the mix. Yeah. It's like a fragrant palm ender for us, narratively. But yeah, Orman and Darren and Gwaine, the Hightower triplets here at Tumulton is just. Orman would be so thrilled to hear you called Darren a Hightower triplet. My God. His whole PR thing is really, really working. Tark Tower. Patient Hunter gets the kill, Jo. His hair's red. Bite. Bite. Where are you on? I think that it's his hair because we'd be seeing some. Some rootage. Rootage at this point. Yeah. I just, and I think I always thought that it was his hair and your point that, that was part of probably what like allowed Orman to think him Hightower worthy in the first place. That maybe Allison had to get him out, like the bad baby email, et cetera. All makes sense. I just think that Orman is a character who would, would dye that kid's hair to look more Hightower-y if he had the traditional Tark silver because Orman is. I don't disagree. And here's what I'll say. Hey Hightower supremacist. Here's what I'll say from a sort of hair point of view. That Tark blonde would be really easy to lay other color on top of. You're starting with a bleach face. You can go anywhere with that. Wow. I learned so much from you every time we pod. Well, like you could not. Right. They'd have to bleach my hair first. Bleach your hair first and then dye it. So, you know, should I? No. Your hair is beautiful and shiny and perfect. Don't touch a hair. My hair is insane. And every day it's grayer than the day before. But, you know, at least I'm going through all of that on camera. That's fun. Orman hits Gwaine with this shitty, a series of shitty snide homophobic comments. But I'm sure you found solace with some of your brothers in arms. Shout out to like Freddie Fox and Fabian Frankel. Fabian Frankel in the, um, uh, vulture interview, I believe was just sort of like, oh yeah. Like, I mean, not that they were like having sex on the camping trip or whatever, but he was just sort of like, Freddie and I definitely like leaned into this dynamic between Kristen Cole and Gwaine Hightower. So if that's like what you think was there, that's not by accident. We were sort of like, you know, take that as far as you want is what he said. Very similar to Sean Astin being like, why couldn't Sam and Fredo kiss on the way to Mordor? Why not? You know? And so like this idea that, that Gwaine was like in love with Kristen Cole. Yeah. And was like, come back with me. Tall town. I'd love to show it to you one day. Yeah. Not to polish my boots, but to polish my boots. And like, uh, and that tear. And when Kristen was like, they'll sing songs and Alison will hear. And Gwaine's like, oh, you're, you're in love with my sister, not me. You know, like that sort of stuff I think is sad and interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love Gwaine. I love him so much. You know, Alison will not give a shit that Kristen Cole is dead, but Gwaine is going to care. Very upset. That's going to be painful to see if, if I hope we see him receive the news. If anyone ever finds out. Cause there are no songs about how brave you died. Yeah. A thousand's dead on your account. Um, Ormond pairing these homophobic remarks with once again, calling Gwaine Craven and Gwaine is like, I've been through bad. Battle. I've watched my comrades die around me. And the way that that will be paid off so perfectly in the Baratheon faux Baratheon assassination sequence. Really, really, really good. These scenes were just excellent. Our listener, Garen wrote in to say, am I tripping or has the word Craven been the word of the season? Our listener, Shawnee said drink. Every time they say Craven, Nary a thesaurus to be found in the realm. Haven't heard lick spittles in a minute. Maybe we bring that back. What's your best Craven synonym? Nobody said lick spittle quite like Viserys. Your lick spittles. Hmm. Let's see. I kind of like Craven. I mean, obviously we can get coward in the mix and we do. I like gutless. Gutless is good. Spineless. Pussy. What if, what if, what if the show just starts saying that? On the anachronistic language. I like, uh, I think it's in strictly ballroom that a character, one of my favorite movies of all time, that a character, in the thickest Australian accent of all time says, gutless wonder. You're a gutless wonder. I think that's really fun. Gutless wonder if you can't parse my terrible Australian accent. So let's get it into episode seven. Yeah. There's still time. Just dub over Craven with just like a thickly Australian accented gutless wonder. Fantastic stuff. Away from Ormond now. Possibly almost only like 10 feet away just around the bend. Hard to say to have this conversation, but hopefully they got a few quarters. Maybe his incense, you know, vaporizers make a lot of noise that he can't hear. Maybe. But Darren is like, you know what this guy is. And yeah, you had to leave. You left me. But you weren't sad to. And he alludes to Ormond's abuse. He says, I do what I can to keep him from, you know, just about what he's doing to Darren. What Darren is protecting other people from, all of the above. Right. Feels like it's all in the mix there. And James Norton has said in interviews that he and Freddie Fox talked a lot about like sort of what their history was, what their dynamic was. Like, you know, if, if Gwaine was Ormond's whipping boy before Darren came along. Right. And Gwaine put himself in front of Darren as much as he could. Yes. And, and like, if you, if you, if you choose to think of it that way, and then you go back to Alison asking Gwaine about Darren and him being like, he's a nice boy, a musician, all this other stuff. He's being abused by Ormond. And I'm doing. I'm doing my best to stop. You know, like he doesn't, he doesn't like bring this sort of like, things are kind of shitty and abusive actually over there, you know, just in a different way than they are here. So. I do wonder in hindsight if the show hadn't made the decision yet to go there with. I don't think so. Because the whole point was like, he's doing better without you. He's doing great away from the red key. But I think you can go back and read that. Yes. With this idea in your mind. No question. I thought it was both kind of heartbreaking and heartening when Darren tells Gwaine that he hates who he is when he's with Ormond. Heartbreaking because. He's just terrible life and this person who is grooming and torturing and using, as Darren says, here's a tool like he would sit on the throne himself. He doesn't care what happens to me. I'm never going to be king. But the heartening part is just that Darren is so aware of this, is aware of the effect that Ormond has on him and doesn't want to be this person, doesn't want Ormond to be able to shape him into this. I think what's really fun is like, this is the first time we're really seeing Darren. Right. Because we've been seeing like a performance. Yes. That he's putting on. This and the moment. He was alone with Caesarian. That's it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a moment where he's considering the Savas board. Like, you know, he's like looking and calculating and then, oh, I got lucky. Has to pull himself out of being. Yeah. It's a great, great shout. I thought it was interesting when Gwaine is like, his journey is, he style you the bloody king, tell him you refuse, and then, ooh, if you were the king, you could stop him. That was a pretty quick journey for Gwaine there. So that was interesting. And then he's like, I need a bath. I need my feather bed. I need to go back to Old Town because I'm second in line. So we had been wondering about this because Book Ormond has kids. So it did not seem based on the way he was interacting with Darren like he had airs of his own in the television adaptation, but this would seem to confirm it. Do you want to relate the tweet I shared with you? I'll leave it to you. This is so much more your speed than it is mine. But it's too good. This is incredible. It was so good, you were like, maybe I'll go back on Twitter. Maybe this will get me back onto Twitter. It didn't. So someone tweeted, oh, so Ormond has no kids slash no airs in this, right? Because that's a book change. And someone quote tweeted, uh, Jay-Z overrated 3D is the name of the handle. He's sensitive to bad sense and imagine what medieval pussy smelled like. I didn't say it. I'm just repeating it. Incredible. Has Ormond ever had sex with a woman? He is sensitive to odors. Aromas. I don't like that word, odors, for a lady. Aromas. Incredible. Thank you for posting that on today's podcast. Stooping to your level. Exactly. Down here in the filth and the muck on the Baratheon boots. Welcome. Welcome. This is where I live. And then this is where Darren begs him not to leave and then asks. Camera on his sweet, sad face. Did you see my mother? When you were in King's Landing, did you see my mother? That crushed me. Absolutely crushed. You just felt how young Darren was in that moment and how lonely. I thought that was so sad. Towering over Freddie Foxx, which I, like, was just, like, not what I would have expected. Freddie Foxx is not the tallest. He's a short king. Yeah. Short king. Short king. Darren's not with Alison, but Helena is. Things are going great. Helena's barely speaking and is refusing food. Pushing the sewing needle. Stabbing at her fingers with the sewing needle. Incredibly upsetting. This is really, really, really, really painful to see. She's stipping a tapestry, which we will talk about more in a second here. But first she asks if Alison lied. Lied about Jahara, which was our read on where they were going and who was. Who was going to be there or not. And so Alison can't deny it, right? This is very tough. Very tough. I thought it was interesting because, like, you know, Helena's like, you look away when you lie last week. And so this idea that she, like, then decided Alison was telling the truth. Yeah. Whatever. Yes. Yeah. That's sort of strange. Alison's like, I just want to get us out of here. Me or yourself? What difference does it make? That kind of idea has come up before on the show. I've come too far. I've sacrificed too much. If I cannot. At last salvage my daughter. Salvage. Fascinating word choice there. My goodness. And then Alison's unfurls the tapestry to examine it. And it is Joanna Amond at Harrenhal. Here's what we see. As I assume every single person watching the show is hearing Helena in season one, episode seven, saying, Hand turns loom. Spool of green, spool of black. Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. Hand turns loom. Okay, we see Amond curled in the fetal position. Blue eye gleaming. Gleaming. Blue eye. Naked. As he prefers to be when he is curled up in the fetal position. In a vaginal-shaped pool of blood that is piping down into the roots. The idea that the blood is like feeding the stone and soil of Harrenhal. It's womb-y and vaginally at the same time. Yes. Which makes sense for a guy who's sexually fixated on his mother. Sure does. Sure does. Tough thing for your sister to know about you. But not if you're a Targaryen. But like, what a cool thing to explain. You expressed artistically. It's really free to call. I mean, I said Georgia O'Keeffe before, but I think this is real free to call-o shit, honestly. Yes. Where she's just sort of like, womb vagina. That's what I'll do. I hope that this is at a museum one day. This was great looking, truly. Alice is looming over. Amond, Harrenhal is behind them. The dragon eggs are off to the right. They're there. They're being stitched. And there's also this like bright, lush, orange and blue flora. This like plant and tree life. Which is uncharacteristic from what we're accustomed to seeing around Harrenhal. I thought this was interesting. Was your read on that, that that was like the plants that, you know, the natural elements that Alice uses in her potions, for example. Or more of a like, almost Dune-esque, like lead us to paradise. What could we return? What state could we return Harrenhal to? What is Alice seeking to do in this bed of magic? What did you make of the. I'll go with stuff. Which stuff go? As you know. Why not? Why not always? This is, of course, not Helena's first Harrenhal, Amond, prophecy, vision dream. If anyone wants to return to what she said to him at the end of season two, you're welcome to. You're going to die in this place. It's a very, very chill thing to say. And then we go from that tapestry to Harrenhal itself. Where Amond is trying to steal a horse to flee when the stable boy spots him and Alice stabs the stable boy. She's like, look what I did for you. Right. And I was thinking, man, that was one of, like, you only listed so many inhabitants of the castle. Remember when I stabbed the stable boy? For me. Yeah. I know you would. To show you right from the beginning how loyal I was to you. I know you would. Would you also stab the butter turner? The blind man who turns the butter? No, we need that butter. And the ghost. And the goat. No. But stable boy, we can sell a horse. He was expendable. We can, you know, move some hay about. This, I mean, Alice killed. Oscar Tully's grandfather, we believe. But this is the first time we've seen her do something like. He have the leaky bowel? Quite so. Murdery. Murdery. I celebrate it. Attracts with your general demeanor on this podcast today, yeah? Your moral disposition. Amond asks a good question here. You had posed something similar last week. Why not just kill me and take the bounty if you want the castle so goddamn bad? So, why trust Rhaenyra if you're Alice? That's certainly part of it. Even if you could trust Rhaenyra's word, you're not going to thwart off challenges from the other people on Harrenhal. But more so, I've got a magic-y plan that involves dragon eggs, and I'm about to tell you about it, right? I need you for something else. I think it's interesting that Gale Rankin has said that she feels like Alice and Daemon went through, like, a breakup, right? Yes. So, if that's how she's viewing it, then, like, sort of this idea of, like, that Targaryen didn't work out for me. Yeah. - Definitely. - So this, so like she's on, On a clear seduce and destroy mission with Aemon, right? And destroy sort of mentally, not like actually, right? Seduce and like, I'll give you princes. Well, you know, we'll talk about our plan or whatever. But it's a different tactic from what she took with Daemon. Because with Daemon, it was almost like she was like, let's be partners. And here she's like, you know what? That approach did not work out with the Targaryen. Let me partner up with this Targaryen. Like almost like business partners. You know, she was treating him like the free exchange of ideas. Like, this is a smart thing for you to do in regards to Rhaenyra. This, that, and the other thing. You know, yes, I'm sending you weird dreams and manipulating you. But also just like talking to you like an adult. That's not the tack with Aemon. She's like, this is a more vulnerable, malleable version of the guy who showed up and was like, Harrenhal, no, I don't get that. She's like, I'm not going to try to form a partnership with this guy. I'm going to, you know, lean into his mommy issues. Once again. Like, stop him and like, you know, and then, and then manipulate him. Yes. For sure. And it seems to be working. It's working. Aemon is a more, I mean, you know, Daemon had his, had his, his own relationship too and journey with Harrenhal therapy. But Aemon is, he's putty in Alice's hands by the end of this sequence here. She takes him to her witchy workshop. Thrilling. Just delightful. Wish I could. I thought of you instantly. You know how you and the boys don't know each other? You talk about the time you went to Galaxy's Edge and you like built a lightsaber and stuff like that. If there were a version of that where I got to Alice, got to go to Alice's witchy workshop and like make a potion. You said you're just giving these ideas away for free. I would pour. Build the theme park immediately. Where is the Harrenhal experience? Exactly. Where is it? Where is it? I ask you. You get to go and have dream therapy and then make your own potion that you get to take home. Dream therapy. So it's a little bit, it's a Game of Thrones specific thing, but they're using, they're using some Stark tech. They're using barf. Why not? Quentin Beck will be thrilled. Kill a stable boy and go home. Alice opens a crate and reveals five fucking dragon eggs. Smears a little blood on them, by the way. Stable boy blood. I mean, not the last we're going to see of blood from Alice, I have to assume here. We genuinely have no idea where this is going. No, we don't. This is like all new, just to be clear. So we're speculating very freely. Yeah, sounds good. She says that dream, she's like, you forgot your history? Dream fire. Dreamy. Dreamy. Dreamy. The dream fire laid during Rhaena Targaryen's Harrenhal stay following the death of her daughter, Arya. This is about as excited as, as dragon nerds and fire blood nerds can get. I'm thrilled. I'm so excited to, we talked about this briefly with Chris, but we can nerd out here for a couple minutes. Which part of this do you want to take first? Do you want to talk about Rhaena? I want to talk about dream fire. Dream fire. Hit it. Helena's dragon, who she does not ride. Dreamy. Um, so dream fire is just like chilling in King's Landing, not being like really calculated in dragon math because Helena's like, I'd rather draw bugs. Right? Okay. Um, but historically dream fire, uh, who loves to lay clutches of eggs all over Westeros. Yeah. Forever dropping egg clutches. So like the fact that she dropped some egg clutch, a clutch of eggs at Harrenhal, not surprising. Right. And it tracks totally attracts. This is, this is, this is not in the book. This is brand new information. We do not know what's going on with these eggs, but it would almost be improbable for dream fire not to have laid a clutch of eggs. She just loves to do it. It's her number one hobby. Some dragon stone clutches. She loves to do it. Um, life finds a way as you know, um, what's really interesting about dream fires eggs for larger game of Thrones lore, um, is that. It was, we think, we believe that three of dream fires, eggs, dream fires, eggs, eggs of dream fire, um, are Daenerys's eggs. Yeah. Um, so where did we land? Eliza, Alyssa, Alyssa, Alyssa Farman on the last full week trying to get that right. It was like, which one did I say? Which one did you say? Isn't it a two S's and an A Alyssa, Alyssa Farman, but with an E. Yeah. Classic George, Alyssa, Alyssa Farman, and like, uh, bestie and perhaps more to rain it, rain it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Her girlfriend. Yes. She married her brother so she could fuck her. Um, basically three loved, loved her brother, but then the couple horrible husbands including, including me. And then she's like, I'm switching to ladies. And then her, her lover, Alyssa Farman betrayed her, took three eggs, took off and we believe sold them. And then they, well, they found them. They found their way to Daenerys Targaryen down the line. Yes. That's the dream fire side of things. You want to talk about the, the Raina side of things? I do, but let's stay on the dream fire eggs for a second here because I very quickly mentioned this on talk the thorns, but I want to read this passage since we are on the deep dive and we have an opportunity to nerd out on lore for a second. I think this connects to some Viserys Valeria obsession stuff that we've been tracking all series long. So, okay. The, the fair cause fair isle was the farm and home. So the fair isle clutch, they see the eggs, they know their eggs, but then we got to get out of there. J. Harris is going to, he gives, he gives Raina Dragonstone. I don't want to, everyone's asked me for the eggs, the fucking Lannisters. They always want the Lannisters really want those eggs. Alyssa almost said, almost fucked it up again. The eggs that Alyssa takes are not the fair. I like their different clutch from Dragonstone sales away. Okay. And as we mentioned, dream fire, dropping, constantly laying eggs. Okay. So the fair isle clutch, 43 AC, the theft, 54 AC. The response to this, we have talked a lot on the show. About J. Harris, the old King, the conciliator. Those, the series opens with the, the great council where Viserys is chosen as his heir. And we talk about a lot, like the, the peaceful reign, good queen, Alice Sane on the diplomacy front. They were constantly going around right on the procession, constantly north of the wall. I mean, that's another super fun part of the, what, what has silverman seen on just the general, like nerd, a dread thrones, nerd dragon front, the idea that like they're in beyond dream fire, the dragons. Just have secret clutches of eggs waiting to be discovered. It's like a really fun thing. The, the, the silver wing wall theorizing that Sam doesn't feast or the idea that, that Vermax could have possibly laid a left exit winter fell when Jace was there. And that gets to the whole septum barth, sex of dragons things, which we don't have time for today, believe it or not. Even we have limits one day, um, J Harris's response to the idea that the eggs could hatch and become dragons that other people can seek to use for the peaceful King. The good King was this the long reign of J Harris. The first Targaryen, this is from fire and blood was a peaceful one. For the most part, such wars as he thought were few and short, let no man mistake J Harris for his father anus. However, it's an east, but I like to say anus. There was nothing weak about him, nothing indecisive as his sister, Raina and grand maester. Benefer iconic witness. Then when the King went on to say, should the dragons turn up anywhere from here to ET, we will demand their return. They were stolen from us. They are ours by right. If that demand should be denied, then we must needs go and get them, take them back. If we can kill them. If not, no hatchlings can hope to stand against Vermithor and dream fire and silver wing asked Raina. Our sister had no part in this. I will not put her at risk. The queen in the east Raina smiled. Then she is Rainy's and I am Visenya. I have never thought otherwise. Grand maester Benefer said you were speaking of waging war across the narrow sea. Your grace, the costs must needs be born. I will not allow Valeria to rise again. So the idea that Alice has these eggs and is saying to amen, let's make some dragon babies. Give me your dragon rider jizz and let's make some princess of our own and try to hatch these eggs. Ooh, they're warm, warm, there's blood on them and they're warm. It's not just, could someone challenge us if they had dragons, obviously at the most fundamental level, there's that, but it's what does the blood matter to you? The magic, the right, the ritual that is necessary to try to bring dragons into the world in the first place mean on the Valeria front. And we think about the fact that Viserys, I got a really little jolt discovering, rereading that passage. I will not allow Valeria to rise again because this obsession that Viserys has. Yeah. Valeria, right? Thinking of like the second episode of season one, the way he talked about as he was explaining this to Alison. This was the inaugural where the blood mages worked their craft or we think of the pre, the secret. The sequence with, uh, with Sir Stefan before the full sewing episode. What's the lyric of the song? The fires have spoken and the price has been paid with blood magic. If Alice is going to try to do this thing, the threat of the magic, the blood magic behind Valeria, behind the dragon riding power, that one of the lessons that Viserys inherited from Jaehaerys, clearly along with the prophecy. Yeah. Was we cannot allow this thing to happen again. Really, really fascinating to think about that being. Part of what was passed down as well. Rhaena. Mm-hmm. Incredibly fascinating figure in general in Targaryen history. Princess Rhaena Targaryen, not the same one who's eating blackberries in the Vale. Right. Right. Uh, Jo. Cool character in general. An interesting one to invoke in this story because she, many people were like, should she be queen? Yeah. Should her kids be the queens? Yeah. So as a proto. question to Rhaenyra on what the realm would accept. but when she came around to it she's like hey maybe I should be queen and even and Jaehaerys is like tough shit even at the very beginning this question of like being the first grandchild for the conqueror and like oh well we're waiting for we're waiting for some sons here right and then Aegon comes along and then she can just marry her brother and everything falls into place for a minute there for a while quite tidy I think that it's quite interesting it was her idea to put dragons in the cradles of babies so she's an innovator huge a huge innovator and a really key part of the dragon lore that she did that that she put the eggs in the cradles of her siblings Jaehaerys and Alysanne that's a great one what about the choice to be at Harrenhal to spend her final years there I mean there's the fact that Aegon her brother husband was killed at the god's eye by Maegor the Cruel a lot of connections to characters who have come up in locations that have come up in the tale we're talking about yes but what did the people of this area think of her what did they observe they were like sad lesbian at Harrenhal that's a witch so the witch queen of Harrenhal which is if you think about it something that's going on with Alys so like I don't think that Reyna Targaryen is Alys Rivers is this becoming a popular theory I would not say popular okay because Reyna Targaryen like we know what happened to her body you know what I mean like it's not there are many characters in Fire and Blood where it's like and then there's and then you never saw them again yeah sure you know and they could be living their life somewhere that applies to a lot of different characters they died did they you know that happens that's not the case with Reyna Targaryen so like pretty sure she died did she have another kid did she have a secret daughter when she was like hanging out in Harrenhal and like you know Alys is like Reyna's descendant or something like that that could be cool idea but either way this idea of like the witch queen of Harrenhal yeah which is an appellation that I'm not sure about applies to Alys Rivers being sort of applied to Reyna Targaryen as well is pretty exciting what would be more interesting to you ultimately if Alys actually had a blood tie to the Targaryens or if she doesn't but wants to use their power and connect to their power yeah I don't know I think doesn't is more interesting to me just because she's so connected to the old gods right I think so yeah the Isle of Faces the Weirwood Tree you know the Children of the Forest the Green Men so this idea the combo of ice and fire you know that would be fun is pretty irresistible and there's a really fun theory about this that we'll talk about in the book spoiler section about like how this could relate to Thrones characters that we know but like exciting I think that's more interesting but this idea of like these are my mother's egg you know you know these eggs belong to my mother in that larger theme of like you know the various dragon seeds that would make her a dragon seed essentially and so like you know who feel entitled to power and to dragon for Daemon to treat Alice like she's absolutely fucking nothing when she's like actually I'm a descendant of Reina Targaryen would be fascinating it's not uninteresting to me but I do think it's more interesting if she's like I'm hundreds of years old and I'm connected to the Children of the Forest somehow put your dragon baby in me so that I can control a rider give me that dragon rider jizz that dragon seed that dragon seed quite literally yeah um someone who definitely definitively is Reina Targaryen this Reina Targaryen's daughter is Araya and we didn't get to this on Talk to Thrones at all so I think this is worth hitting for a second in terms of the risk of dragon magic and the hubris of dragon riding which is obviously central to the story yeah Araya don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly that sounds right to me by the way but I think that was probably it claim Balerion the black dragon Viserys's dragon that he was too craven to ride yeah that demon would be like Araya ruled yeah the courage of that child who immediately died spoiler um not immediately she's gone for a while well we're gonna that's what we're gonna hit right now so I'm gonna read this I'm gonna read a passage but before that we're gonna kind of the end this death of Araya who returns and is like burning right the fever Balerion has cuts and is injured which is like astonishing she disappeared on her dragon for a long time they're like where are they where is Araya she comes back mysteriously feverish and ill and her dragon Balerion has been through it has wounds as well which is astonishing to people so I'm gonna read this horrifying but feels important passage in a minute but the you mentioned the ice and fire part of it with the the Alice theory I think so another part of this is from the the Septim Barth accounts in Fire and Blood what came out of Araya as she died the things mother have mercy I do not know how to speak of them they were worms with faces snakes with hands twisting slimy unspeakable things that seemed to writhe and pulse and squirm as they came bursting from her flesh some were no bigger than my little finger but one was at least as long as my arm oh warrior protect me the sounds they made they died though I must remember that cling to that whatever they might have been they were creatures of heat and fire and they did not love the ice okay Valeria stop me if you've heard this before we have some concerns about Valeria rising again and the blood magic that we presume Alice is about to attempt should be concerning for us and certainly would be concerning for any Targaryen who learns of it quite excited me too thrilled can't wait this is actually like really exciting he is mayhaps he Valerian the only living creature in the world that knew Valeria before the doom and that is where he took the poor doomed child clinging to his back remember reading this for the first time it's so exciting and so spooky if she went willingly I would be most surprised but she had neither the knowledge nor the force of will to turn him what befell her on Valeria I cannot surmise judging from the condition in which she returned to us I do not even care to contemplate it the Valerians were more than dragon lords they practiced blood magic and other dark arts as well delving deep into the earth for secrets best left buried and twisting the flesh of beasts and men to fashion monstrous and unnatural chimeras for these sins the gods in their wrath struck them down Valeria is accursed all men agree is Alice about to attempt a blood magic ritual to wake the dragons that like history lessons like this the doom itself but also much more recently in the canon what befell Aurea and Valerian as they went to Valeria itself you want worms with faces worms with faces the end of that passage is the fire the father made man curious some say to test our faith it is my own abiding sin that whenever I come upon a door I must need see what lies upon the farther side but certain doors are best left unopened Aurea Targaryen went through such a door so just the like the hubris of attempting to ride the dragon in the first place explore on it control it this is a risky proposition the theory that I love about Aurea on Valerian is that like she was like take me home and Valerian's like I'm going to Valeria oh home you mean Valeria wouldn't that be exactly of a piece and she put the wrong thing in ways and she was just sort of like oh no oh no I met King's Landing and you took me to Valeria sounds exactly like Reyna bringing Sheepstealer right into the gullet or Aemon's trying to control Vhagar she's like I'm going to eat Arax and Luke right now this is all so of a piece on the hubris front and I just like I want our girl Alice to keep this in mind I hope her saying to you know Aemon did you forget your histories maybe he'll bring some of this up just as a cautionary tale what do you think here's a here's some Reyna Targaryen stuff okay Reyna Targaryen died 73 AC at 50 years of age an old crone after after the death of her daughter Araya she never again visited King's Landing or Dragonstone nor played any part in the ruling of the realm though she did fly to Oldtown once a year to visit with her remaining daughter Rayella a septa at the Starry Sept her hair of gold and silver turned white before the end and the small folk of the Riverlands feared her as a witch travelers who turned up at the gates of Harrenhal in hope of hospitality were given bread and salt and the privilege of a night's shelter during those years but not the honor of the Queen's company those who were fortunate spoke of glimpsing her on the battlements or seeing her coming and going on her dragon for Reyna continued to ride dreamfire until the end just as she had in the beginning when she died King Jaehaerys ordered that she be burned at Harrenhal and her ashes interned there so like her body was burned they interned the ashes blah blah but just sort of like a witch queen of Harrenhal that nobody sees and they you know glimpsed her on the battlements and stuff like that like it's a really cool thing to evoke inside of an Alice River and if Alice is hundreds of years old and watched her and saw that how much did that contribute to or if Alice is old enough to have been there for Aegon the Conqueror and Balerion burning Harrenhor like I do not know the ways of dragons Alice says to Aemond here but I have long envisaged the return of the Targaryens to this ancient seat she invokes the ancient sword strength she calls herself the Lady of the Water were you getting a little like a Arthurian Lady of the Lake vibe there? Quite a few emails about this I bet Maggie wrote in to say last night Alice while power seducing Aemond said she would be his lady of the water and he would be the dragon lord my mind first went to Morgan Le Fay and Arthur another dysfunctional brother sister duo and her often conflation with Nimue Arthur's surname is Pendragon chief dragon chief warlord dragon lord is House the Dragon combining Morgan and Nimue into one heel. slash sorceress slash antagonist. Obviously, Alice and Aemon aren't related, or are they? Just kidding. That'd be crazy. But I couldn't help but flag the reference. And then Cameron wrote in to say- You think Aemon's also a barn owl? Cursed to live in human form? No, he's just that guy. Our listener Cameron wrote in to say, the Lady of the Lake from Arthurian legends, a mythical being who's usually portrayed as either helpful or cunning, two sides we've already seen of our dear Alice, and presents King Arthur with Excalibur, a symbol of his divine right to rule. In this episode, we see her offer a different boon to Aemon, one of petrified dragons and the promise of princelings to hatch them. And then our listener Cody wrote in, not about Arthurian legend, but Azor Ahai. I'm curious of your thoughts on Alice and the Stone Eggs. Do you think she's aware of the story slash prophecy of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer? It appears when she smears her blood on the egg and Aemon remarks that it feels warm, that she's familiar with how Lightbringer was forged through self-sacrifice, and that same idea is presented when Dany hatches her dragons could Alice be trying to position herself into the prophecy? I mean, she spent a lot of time around Daemon and he's just freely talking prophecy all the time. Yeah. Maybe. I love that. I mean, I believe that Alice knows everything, honestly, because she's just like dreamwalking, I think. She rules. Yeah, she and Helena both dreamwalking. So yeah, I love witches. I love this position. I also love like what's going around on the internet in the last couple of days, which is just like, this is the hot goth couple we deserve. Uh, you know. I'm very into it. Like, yeah, here they are. Very, very into it. Alice and Aemon. Another thing I saw is like, I think it was one of our listeners maybe, but they were like, I'm really excited for the Battle of the Mommies next week at Heron Hall. I suggest a la Clegane Bowl, we should call it Mommy Bowl or something like that. Maybe there's a better name for it, but like an upcoming Mommy Bowl. Yeah, I'm in. Alice and V. Alice. Should we make some merch? There's still time. Yeah, we're really good at making merch. I have a Clegane Bowl shirt still. Yeah. I never really got to like, fully celebrate wearing that. Nope. Uh, Rhaenyra. Back to Rhaenyra. Back to the Red Keep. Back to the Iron Throne. Hearing petitions? Woo! Cutting that hand. Big moment here. We cut from Alice asking Aemon for that dragon seed to the cries of a babe. This was one of those. You wrote jizz in the nose. I did, but we've said it so many times. I did write dragon jizz in that corporate Google Doc. I did. Rhaenyra is sitting the throne. And everybody, Mysaria's in the corner. She's in that very familiar throne's perch where we've seen so many characters over so many episodes. She looks stressed watching all this because Rhaenyra is like, publicly, not subtly at all. Torn Manderly is the master of coin. Take it to him. Mysaria's like, Mistress of Whispers. We whisper it. We don't just like, say it. Attacks on the youngsters at the mother house? Thoughts and prayers. I'll light a candle. What candle? And then blames the Hightower. These are Hightower problems for the gold cloaks, but then reveals the very specific Valarian reinforcement plans and the attempt to fortify. This was very strange. And then the masses are yelling. They're talking tallow. They're talking about how they're afraid, right? And the sound changes. Should we rename the pod Talkin' Tallow? I'm in. Okay. Or just a spinoff candle pod. Talkin' Tallow. That would be great. One of my friends had a candle blog briefly. It was called Wicker Snapper. She probably just won't be mentioning that. It was a school project. Kid. Rhaenyra feels a sting on her hand, looks down. Let's see it and let's see what it is a mirror moment to. They arrive. The city should be returned. How will I be protected? She was my sixth captain. Your Grace, we are afraid. And wherever the fort lies, we have none to look to now but you. You don't want to also cut that with a shot of Daenerys walking out with dragon wings flapping behind her. From the finale, everyone's favorite episode. Maybe we'll break that out later. Yeah. She cuts her finger. She looks to the statue of her father holding the Lego set and she's just like, uh-oh. Uh-oh. Oh, no. Rejected by the throne as was Viserys. Love this. Really great. So the mirror to Viserys is particularly satisfying given the looming specter of Viserys. But, you know, as we've loved talking about since that very first episode of House of the Dragon when the pinky cut came for Viserys and the magical leprosy as they refer to it set in, this idea that the Iron Throne can judge you as unworthy and the number of characters. Maegor died on there. It is possible that the aforementioned Marenda Targaryen, his, you know, one of his widows who fucking hated him, it's possible that she arranged that. This is what we love when there are multiple potential interpretations and it's what is the character in question, not Maegor because he was dead, thinking and seeing and worrying about and then what are other people seeing? Here's the Maegor passage. Hours later, as dawn was breaking, the last of Maegor's queens came seeking after him. Queen Elinor found him still upon the Iron Throne, pale and dead, his robes soaked through with blood, his arms had been slashed open from wrist to elbow on jagged barbs and another blade had gone through his neck to emerge beneath his chin. Many to this day believe it was the Iron Throne itself that killed him. So that's the kind of story that populates the realm, that people, that people will know and will have heard and will be thinking about and wondering when they see Viserys cut, when Rhaenyra cut. This question, and Emma Darcy voiced this in the Inside the Episode, of what was known about Viserys. So this is a little bit different, right? And I'm curious where you are, what you think is more effective in terms of like there was something undeniable about the, this is subtle, right? Like how many people mark that other than Rhaenyra itself? So how much of it in this moment for you right now is about what Rhaenyra is worrying about and thinking about? How many other people have clocked that this has happened? Right. She's, well, she's hiding it. So she, so in her mind, she's heard the story of if you're unworthy, the throne will cut you, right? Viserys doesn't seem that, he's just like, oh, a paper cut. I got it at work. He doesn't, he's not like, doom. No, he's like, I got an infection from a dirty, a dirty blade. Yeah. And then his whole body just falls off. But Rhaenyra seems to take more seriously this idea that like the cut from the throne could mean something. And so she's like, so when she dashes out, it's not just like, I'm tired of hearing these complaints even though she is. It's, I don't want them to see that the throne has deemed me unworthy. Right. Better wash that out with some soap before we have to break out the maggot bowl. We mentioned some of the other, so there's, there's the Maegor example, Viserys obviously, Rhaenyra now in the future, the Mad King, King Scab, Joff gets cut. The one I didn't mention on Talk of Thrones that felt very quickly worth noting here is the egg on the conqueror possibility. Which is always an interesting one because I think there's, there's this passage, you know, Aegon is considered this fabled figure, right? The question of whether he also could have been cut by the throne is a really tantalizing one. Or did he just get a paper cut from a letter? This is open to interpretation. King Aegon read Prince Naimor's words. This is a letter from Dorne. In open court, stone-faced and silent, whilst seated on the Iron Throne. When he rose afterward, men said his hand was dripping blood. Was it, was it, was he just really holding that letter? And the letter sends him to a fascinating place. He burned the letter, never spoke of it again. But that night, he mounted Balerion and flew off across the waters of Blackwater Bay to Dragonstone upon its smoking mountain. When he returned the next morning, Aegon Targaryen agreed to the terms proposed by Naimor. Soon thereafter, he signed a treaty of eternal peace with Dorne. So something's in that letter of monumental import, perhaps connected to all of his larger concerns about the state of the realm and the prophecy. Did he cut his sand on the parchment? Did he cut it on the throne? By the way, the throne was his idea because he's like, you should, the seat should be uncomfy if you're going to rule. It should be quite jacked. Can I read the Rhaenyra passage? This is the coronation, the Rhaenyra coronation. Septon Eustace tells us that the ceremony went on all through that night. It was well past dawn when Rhaenyra Targaryen rose and made her descent. Quote, and as her lord husband, Prince Daemon, escorted her from the hall, cuts were seen upon her grace's legs and the palm of her left hand, wrote Eustace. Quote, drops of blood fell to the floor as she went past and wise men looked at one another, though none dared to speak the truth out loud. The Iron Throne had spurned her and her days upon it would be few. I think that's okay to say because it's like something people were saying about it. Yeah, they were just like speculating. Hot goss. Yeah. Spilling tea. Yeah. Talking shit. Yeah. What works better for you? Immediately the throne cutting her the second she sits on it or this buildup? Been there trying to take control of the realm trying to rule and then the first cut of the blade. I like it being a little nick of the finger. Like I like how clearly that parallels parallels Viserys. I don't know. I need to think about it. We were missing it from like her ascension to the throne in the first place. And I think I think what I'm missing from it I don't know. I don't know. I don't mind how it's done here necessarily. But I think what I'm missing from it is, like, other people seeing it and other people starting this sort of whisper campaign of, like, the throne has rejected her. You know, Orman would leap on that. Oh, my God. He would love, you know. I don't feel like the people in the room saw her cut her finger. And even if there were agents of Orman in that room, which I think there were because I think, you know, they're yelling, like, it's your fault. Yeah. You smell bad. You know, like, all sorts of stuff like that. I don't think they're reporting that back. But if Orman had that information, he'd be like, oh, the throne spurned her. Did you see? Like, that's why I think it's so interesting. Yeah. Because it's, like, and it's interesting that it's part of her coronation because it's, like, the minute she puts her butt on the throne. Yes. The rumors are already flying she's unworthy to sit there. You know? Yeah. Which always feels so unfair. So I think I like this subtler start. But I am viewing that in real time only having seen through episode six with the assumption that more of those whispers and cutlery. The way that they were talking about this on the inside the episode after the episode, the little feature out at the end was like, we all know what this means. This is a portent, a sign, a sign, a portent. You know, it was like, I'm assuming that there are more cuts to come. There's infections that follow. There's rots that follows. It basically reveals what's ultimately happening for real in Rhaenyra's tenure. And I'm just like, I'm, well, or maybe it's just a sharp, dirty blade and everybody thinks it reveals what's really happening. Tune in to find out. I don't know. Damon. Going undercover. As a gold cloak. Sloppy. To try to lure an assassin who's trying to kill the gold cloaks to him and then kill that assassin, which works. But there's some old fallout to follow. Skin in the game from Damon, you know, out there in the field. Kills my new hot boyfriend, which was a bummer. I was like, I really hope this guy's around for a while. Immediately dead. Tough one. He does his best. High sparrow. You are the few. We are the many. Impression, I would say, less poetically. We have no number. We are everywhere. Same concept, though, right? And says, burn us, kill us. You'll never make us embrace her. About Rhaenyra, which really takes us back, I think, to a season one Rhaenys. Like, men would sooner put the realm to the torch than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne place. Very upsetting here. Jo, what did you make before Damon stabbed him through the ear and thus into the brain of him? Saying, Darren the Daring. Oh, we talked about this on Talk the Thrones. So Darren the Daring is a nickname that Darren earns through battle experience. They've changed the character a bit so that we are the ones who witnessed his first kill. And it's this much more up-close, personal, putting the sword through the man. I'm so sorry. The man. Cat's brother. Very important. Leo? Could be. But saying Darren the Daring is real, like, Ormond Tytower branding. Yeah. That Ormond's like, here's some coins. Why don't you start dropping? I like the phrase Darren the Daring. Yeah. Put it on the merch. Put it on the posters. Put it on a button. Yeah. You know, all those things. The propaganda machine. Yeah. It's all spin and showland. And I just like, I like that, that Darren the Daring comes not from people being like, what a daring old man, but Ormond being like, Darren the Daring, don't you think? Has a ring to it. King Darren the Daring has a real ring to it. I like it too. It really feels like it tracks with the focus of the show on controlling the narrative. We already talked about what happens with Damon and Ulf in the street. Anything you want to add? I think embarrassing Ulf has. We should be asking what effect this has on Ulf, but also I think on all the other people who witnessed this, because you have to imagine. First of all, there's one of Ormond's spies is there, that little girl who we saw passing Intel last episode. I love how everyone's just calling her a little bird, because it's like, why bother? So I guess this guy's name is Richard, I think. Hot Richard. The heterochromia hottie. They also call him the blue eyed man in the behind the scenes. Yeah. I did think this line, you'll never find us where the people of seven kingdoms, we have no sign or sigil. We have no sign or sigil, and when you strike us, you only drive more to our cause. We have no sign or sigil. I really liked that line. Very good. Yeah. It was great. The fact that all these people witnessed Damon treating a rider, a dragon rider of Hashtag Gary in this way is. Well, the fact that Ormond's spy specifically sees it is just, I think, not great. If they treat their dragon riders this way, how are they going to treat the rest of us? And then, yeah, what is Ormond going to do with that until when it makes its way back to him? Assassination time. Attempt time in Templeton. Attempt time. And then, incredible stuff from him. Joanna, before we get to the actual bloodbath here, there's a little chat going on about what makes a good hand. You know what makes a good king? What makes a good hand? And Ormond is sharing some praise. Rhaenyra's one good choice, he thinks, is having named Corlys Hand, which just feels worth remarking upon given that there's a kidnapping of Corlys at the end of the episode. It's our theory of brains going here. Yeah. Quick email from our listener, Kevin, who says. For someone who's so sensitive to smells, Ormond is going to town on that asparagus. That's true. So just something to mention. This is what he says, right? You should think on it when you choose your hand, as if he has his choice. His hand is obviously Ormond, right? But like, Rhaenyra made a rare good choice with Corlys Velaryon. There is a soundness to his breeding, not the sordid appetite of the striver. And I will say, rich words from the mouth of a Hightower. Are you kidding me? Like, first of all, Corlys Velaryon is going to town on that asparagus. Corlys is a striver. Secondly, what are the Hightowers constantly doing, if not striving? Like, you know, this idea of like, you know, he's talking about coal and he's talking about, you know, these base-born men and stuff like that. But like, Corlys is a self-made-his-own fortune. And the Hightowers have been, from the start, striving for the throne. No question. So, constant hypocrisy from Ormond. Rich words from the mouth of a Hightower. Undoubtedly. Quite liked him. Mocking Aldo and Gawain's face. It's great. Great stuff. Aldo. A successful striver in his own right, for a minute there. For a minute there. Bold John arrives and he's like, uh, the Baratheons are here. Basically introduces Ormond with a list of titles and styles as though he were king. Thought that was astonishing and quite bold from Bold John. And Ormond is so smug about this. He's like, Highgarden will have no choice but to follow you. Great little way to remind us that Ormond's own Lord Paramount has not sided with House Hightower. Tyrell's sitting it out. What? And I just love, like, that earlier Gawain was like, and what has all of this done to bring the houses to your side? So, like, Ormond's on the back foot to detect this assassination plot because of the smells. And that was Rhaenyra's, like, clever move. These men rolled themselves in shit before they got there. Great. Their boots. They're caked. Filthy. Okay. So, you know, and we hear the whining and his, like, this is, you know, the sense alert is going off and he is having a straight up bad time. Yes. But also, he's primed to miss this because he's in a real, like, see? The Baratheons are on our side. My strategy is working. You doubted me, but here are the Baratheons. So smug about it. And Gawain's like, not hot enough. Not hot enough. It is great to watch Gawain piece it together. And track this in real time. Right? He's puzzling it out. But also, he is proving what he had to, should never have had to say, but did have to say to Ormond, which is like, I'm a soldier. I'm a warrior. I'm a fighter. I actually am in the thick of the fight. And you're not equipped to do this at all. Yeah. You're cowering in fear and revulsion in the background. And I am going to save Darren. I'm going to be the one to do it. Another great little detail in this sequence, you know, because there's the fun kind of rhythm of the action with grabbing the carving knife from the table and using it, et cetera. Picking up the assassin. To say he's not as comely as the actual Aryan Baratheon. But the little moment where, like, Ormond tries to stop Gawain. Yeah. And Jon goes forward and then Darren stops him. And Jon listens to Darren. He does. So that feels very interesting. Important. I saw a tweet that was like, you know, Gawain never forgot a single face of a guy he blew at a tourney or something like that. Right? Great stuff. I love it. Also love that it's not just Gawain. But it's, you know, he's like, wrong hair color. Yeah. Guess not. But wrong hair color. Well, indeed. Which was Ormond's whole gambit. That's right. Right? That's right. It's great. This whole Templeton plot is wonderful. Wrong hair. Too short. Not hot enough. You would know this. Our listener Laura says, you know what Gawain's quick action says a lot for a good night's sleep. And PTSD, but still. What I'm saying is, let's all remember the power of eight hours on a feather bed as y'all are going into another great week of content. No question. Thanks, Laura. We are sleep deprived. Good plan from Rhaenyra. It was. Put the Alice in Smell and Tell into action. However. I thought it was a great plan. Great plan. The fact that it didn't work is very scary now. And the threat is sent back. The word scrawled on the Baratheon kit that Orwild presents to Rhaenyra at the end. So, if you're going to try it, you really want it to work and it didn't. Are you saying if you come at the king, you best not miss? Best not miss. If you come at the guy who isn't king but really wants to be king. Yeah. And has a puppet king. And coins for that puppet king. I thought that this is a scene from later in the episode, but we'll just quickly hit it here. Daeron in the yard training later and Gawain and Ormund watching from the window. And then he says, this is the stuff, Lionel? This is the stuff, Lionel? Certainly for my lifelong bond. Oh, wouldn't you agree? My God, the best. Real, like, abuser ammo stuff from Ormund here. The apology. I'm so sorry I treated you this way. Right. And like, we could just tell we've seen enough already that this is his pattern. And he tells Gawain, you can go to Old Town. And Gawain clearly has decided not to because he asks what Orman's plan is. And we don't see the answer, but we get enough to understand that Gawain has decided to stay to protect Darren. I love also like what we see from Darren in this. He's training with these young boys in the yard and he's like, there's three of you. It should be easy. Very Jon Snow coded. No question. You know, him like teaching these younger boys how to fight. Also, just like this is the fight that Kristen Cole wanted, right? Like three on one. Yeah, he's a good boy. Who was the pip? Who was the grin? Yeah. I hope we get to find out. I do. On the Orman front, we're going to talk about Hugh now. It's from the beginning of this, the dinner before the assassin. But it's paired with Hugh entering Tumbleton when he's talking about the strivers. But specifically, we're like on Hugh's face as he's entering Tumbleton. It's Orman just talking about how you can never trust a common man who's clawed his way to power. Those moments are paired. We know what Orman thinks of he's using the common man. Rich words from a high tower. Yeah, indeed. This reunion does not go as planned for Hugh. I don't really have much more to say about this other than what we've already hit. Horrible to see. Some relationship advice. If your wife's like, terrible things have happened to me. My brother is dead. Don't immediately manhandle her. Have you seen my jag? Have you seen my new jag? Yeah. Yes. That. And also physically pull her through the street. Yes. That's also a note. But I'm just saying, like, when did it all go south is when he was like, she's like, my brother's dead. He's like, put my dragon. Have you? I've got a dragon. Her response of like, is that what that is? You smell different. It was great. Great way to like, you know, the distance that has grown between them. This was a very upsetting scene. That's a, you know, that's a season one Rhaenyra thing. That's right. Smell like dragon. Smell like dragon. Speaking of Rhaenyra. She sends Alicent to Harrenhal. Alicent goes to see her. The vibe is chilly. State your purpose. Do you have something useful for me or have I been misled? It's icy cold. And Alicent shares where Aemond is. She didn't withhold this information. She got it from her daughter, Helena, who, by the way, is a dreamer. She got it via tapestry, as all the best intel should come from. Incredibly worrying that Rhaenyra knows this now. Oh, Rhaenyra is so interested. She invokes? Dany's the dreamer. Diana, tell the bad babies about Dany's. As we mentioned on Talk of Thrones, Dany's, and I have talked many times, Dany's the dreamer is the Targaryen who, once upon a time in Valyria pre-Doom, was like, hey, I saw the Doom coming. Should we leave? Yeah. And the Targaryens, her dad listened to her. Yes. The Targaryens do leave. The other Dragonrider families didn't. And the reason you've never heard of them is they all died. Yeah. The Targaryens didn't conquer Westeros right then. They sort of left, and then they conquered Westeros. But she's the reason why the Targaryens exist, why the Dragonriders still exist. And so, Dany's the dreamer as this sort of like, this could save me. If I have a dreamer who I can grow for information, you know, can she show me the outcome of what's coming? And could she confirm what I believe, which is that I am chosen to rule and all this sort of stuff like that? But like, Helena is so fragile. Like, she's sending Alicent away. Like, Helena's one protector, right? And Helena, who's just like, and Alicent said this, like, she's barely, you know, making it as is, you know? It's incredibly worrying. And Rhaenyra's like, a dreamer. I have a dreamer here. Like, obviously. Upsetting. The idea that the Targaryens went from being, yes, Dragonriders and old Valyria, but kind of like a mid-family into the only Dragonriders who made it through because of a prophetic dream. Yeah. And that that family line gives us Aegon the Conqueror, who has a prophetic dream, which becomes the Song of Ice and Fire, this thing that has been passed down to Rhaenyra and that defines every decision that she makes, and that Daemon casually mentioned in small council meetings. Yeah. You know, the idea that we think of Viserys' obsession with dreams, I so badly want to be a dreamer myself. Like, Rhaenyra's a child of prophecy. She's a child of a desperate wannabe dreamer who had, like, one dream, misinterpreted it, and then, like, lived a miserable existence as a result of it, thinks that her calling is ordained. It's just so. What if she doesn't like what she hears? It's all incredibly, incredibly, incredibly worrying. There is, like, no character in the story who is more primed to react in a certain way to hearing that. She is a dreamer in her midst, then. Rhaenyra, it's also just in terms of how disconnected is this family. We had long speculated, like, how few people knew that. Did Viserys know? Yeah. Helena was a dreamer? Viserys always wanted to be a dreamer. Does he know? Yeah. Well, like, Helena. I think people attract this. This life of isolation, it's sad. I think people attract this. Helena and Rhaenyra have not had a scene together, ever. Just the two of them, you mean? Yeah. Because they've been in group scenes. But they haven't, like, had a conversation. Conversation. Interesting. Ooh. Oh, boy. Well, I assume. I assume we're going to get one from them next week, now that Rhaenyra knows this, because she also uses this. She decides to send Alicent to Harrenhal to go. Okay, so Vhagar's not there, but he's hiding out. Well, that means he's just a man, and a man can be killed. And she's like. I'm going to send a sword. I'm going to send the money he wants to fuck. Mommy bowl. Let's make the merch. Yeah. And Alicent says, I can't leave Helena. And Rhaenyra just overtly uses Helena as leverage and as a threat, right? I'll. I'll. I'll watch over her. I'll watch over her. This is so chilling. Let's see the clip. Please, Rhaenyra. Unhand her, Grace. I. I. I cannot leave Helena. I will keep watch over her. Until you return. Okay. Do I not warn you that you would come to this? Sorry. Absolutely chilling. Yeah. Grabbing Rhaenyra on the arm where she cut her with the dagger of prophecy in this sequence, like, could not be more perfect. The Simbi gets in line, but also the role of prophecy in this tale. I mean, what do you make of the decision to send Alicent to Harrenhal? Where are you on that? But also just where we find Rhaenyra in a position to say that thing about Helena to Alicent. To try to control them. I mean, I mean, it's just what Alicent has been saying all season. And, you know, Rhaenyra has objected to it all season. Like, you think, you think this poorly of me, all this sort of stuff like that. But slowly but surely, she is moving in that direction. She sent an assassin after Darren. Yeah. She's like, I'll watch over Helena as a real, like, sort of like, Helena's still my hostage. Right. You better come back. You better do this thing and then come back. You better do the job and come back because Helena is in my, in my custody. Yeah. And she goes directly from sending Alicent to kill her own son. Or be complicit in killing her own son. Yeah. To going to watch Joffrey's legacy. Dark. I'm still puzzled by the plan to send Alicent, but I'll, I'll remain open to it. Tough times for Team Black, you know? Quite. Quite. So she goes to Joffrey's bed, watches him sleep. Alicent has to part with Helena. Heartbreaking scene gets her to have one, like, tiny little sip of broth from the bowl of soup. But Helena's like, why did you, why am I here? Why did you marry me to my brother? Like, why is this my life? That was devastating. Like, that trailer shot where we were like- Yeah, was there no one else? No one else. And Alicent's like- I wanted to keep you here. I wanted. I wanted. I wanted. I thought it would be better for you to be near me. Really, really upsetting and poignant little, little conversation there. We see Alicent ride off with Escort put up. We had wondered in the trailer, what is that shot? Where is she going? Now we know. And then Corlys, snatched by Bold John and the Hightower men. I assume. I assume. I assume. Ransom. Like, it's directly from like, what's your plan? Yes. You know, like- Is Ormund going to try to- Gwaine's like, what's your plan? Recruit him because he knows he's unhappy. Right. Because he's got spies everywhere. Or just say like, if you think you can get away with torching Tumulton, you're going to torch Corlys Velaryon in the process or something like that. A couple different ways that could go. Yeah. Anything else before we get to the book spoilers quickly? No, let's do it. Book spoiler time. If you don't want to hear this, we will see you for Talks of Thrones for episode seven on Sunday. If you want book spoilers, stay tuned. All right, Jo. What do you want to hit in the book spoilers? Let's start with Old Town. We just got a couple emails from listeners that I didn't feel like I should share in the non-spoiler section because like, they don't ever go to Old Town and this just confirms that, right? Like, the dragons never go to Old Town. So like, Amy says, is there a reason other than we never thought of that, that Rhaenyra doesn't send Daemon to strafe Old Town a teensy bit? I've read the book. I know it doesn't happen, but I'm not sure why no one doesn't, like, even mentions it. It would seem like a good way to draw Ormond's attention away, not to mention some of his troops. And Trey wrote in with a similar thing, and he said, as Catelyn once said, show them how it feels to lose the thing that they love. Great. Great question. So if we're strafing, you know, castles, why not that? And then the blonde babies. Austin wrote in to say, it has officially been 728 days since we got a glimpse of Rhaenyra and Daemon's incorrectly aged blonde future heirs in the season two episode seven. Ryan Condal promises us that he's not forgotten them. This does not bode well for Mallory and my dream of ending season four with the regency of Aegon III. When do you think we will see the blonde babies? I have no idea. I think they'll return in season four. I mean, Viserys shouldn't come back, actually, in the story. That should happen later. Aegon has to come back. At a certain point, they wait too long to bring him back for us to, like, remember and know who he is before he's. I said that about Tyland, and no one blinked an eye. I know that was just a couple episodes, but, like, I didn't. I mean, they basically waited a season to bring Otto back, but we knew Otto really well. We know Tyland pretty well. Hopefully the beginning of season four. Could Tyland and Larys and them find him? Are they actually sailing away? I mean, that's another question. What's going to happen with that? So, in the. We're so, like. I don't. The Sunfire stuff has been perplexing for a while, obviously, but, like, is. Is Team Black going to, based on Corlys' intel, send soldiers to try to find Tyland at Rook's Rest and find. And arrive in Ty. Like, before Aegon, Larys, and Tyland have left? Or are they just going to. And then Sunfire cooks them? Well, or are they just going to. This would be the book equivalent. Sunfire's just gone. And they're like, oh, shit, that dragon's alive, but have not actually seen Aegon. That would, I think, be more in keeping with. But Sunfire toasts. Yes. people on the way out the door. Yes. But has been alive the whole time. In the book. So, yeah. I don't. I'm still, like, a little bit mystified about how they're going to do that, but I'm. I am really curious, actually, to see what happens there, I assume. Okay. In the next episode, but who knows. Helena. Okay. So, here's the question. Obviously, Rhaenyra's going to be like, did you dream of me? Now, we know that from what Helena told Aemond at the end of Season 2, that she has seen what happens to Aegon as well, because she mentions the Wooden Throne. Presumably, but not definitively, that means that Helena has. also seen what happens to Rhaenyra. Is she going to tell Rhaenyra what happens to her, and Rhaenyra will freak out? Is she going to not tell, and Rhaenyra will freak out that she's not giving her any information? How's this going to go? It's funny that you mention Rhaenyra, because, like, I was so worried about Mysaria in this episode, because, like, if Mysaria's going to kill a maid who knew that Helena was pregnant. Yeah. who knew that she knew. Like, she's tying up loose ends of people who knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant, and one of the people who knows that she knows is Helena herself. We've been on. We've been on Mysaria-Helena watch from the beginning, because Mysaria is one of. Like, Mysaria whispering, yeah, this is what happened to your baby, is, like, one of the connective elements to what possibly happened. It could be Mysaria. It could be Rhaenyra, and it could just be Helena herself driven, you know, by her own despair. Yes. I mean, no more Godswood trips, more confined imprisonment on the heels of last episodes. I need to go outside. I need to see the moon. Quite concerning. So, Two Betrayers set up continues to be great. Excellent. Ormund. Ulf. Primo Prime. Yeah. All set up. All Ormund has to do is have somebody go up to Ulf and be like, I'm not going to treat you that way. It's done. Here's a flask of wine. Yeah. You know. My Hugh question remains slightly more complicated. Like, do you think that. I think. Well, here's what I think. I think Ulf having that conversation with Hugh means that if Ormund gets Ulf. He can swing Hugh. He can swing Hugh. And say, maybe your wife is not impressed with your dragon. But if you. But if you're. Save the city. Yeah. If you save the city or, you know, you can save her family. Right. If you do this, if that's what she needs. You know, I feel like Ulf will be used by Ormund to get to Hugh. Yeah. Do you think we still are on a path to hard Hugh? Like, did this interaction with Kat send him down a, like, colder, crueler. I mean, we've just seen glimpses of it. Trajectories. You know, because, like, we saw it when he sort of fought his way through the scrum in season two. In season two. Yes. And when he grabbed her here. Yeah. So I think there. It's not going to be, like, I think, as horrible as it is in the book, but I think it's going to. It's in him. It's in him. Yeah. Ormund's death certainly feels like more fodder for Gawain playing a role, which we've been having fun theorizing about the last couple weeks in the spoiler section. Darren's saying, then, who will protect me then? Will you raise an army against his savages? Savages is such a. Yeah. Darren basically being like, save me from this guy. Also, Gawain's, if you were king. Gawain's king shift does feel like more Gawain leading the Caltrops set up, I think. Those theories from The Bad Babies were excellent. I feel like they're going to be borne out. I want to hit you with this Alice Rivers theory, right? Please. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me. So, like, egg magic show stuff ahead of Summer Hall is what you wrote in our notes. I think that's. Yes. If this is going to go horribly to set us up for Dunkin' Egg or something like that in 20 years. And I am like, how does it not make the history books if something happened? But I don't know. I'm open. I love some weird egg magic. We know that Alice is, or at least claims to be pregnant. Is Alice pregnant with Eamon's blonde baby? And we see that child later in Fire and Blood. Right. Born there. Okay. This is what Jessica wrote. The theory goes that Alice Rivers, who does get pregnant by Eamon in the book, but whose fate is unknown, has a child that goes on to either found or marry into House Wendt, the rulers of Harrenhal at the start of A Game of Thrones. I like that. They gain the seat in the reign of Maekar, the first, and are a relatively newer house descended from knights that served the previous lord. Given Alice commanding the bats. I wonder if this is a clue to the house of her descendants. This could fix a few problems that House of the Dragon has created and others that Game of Thrones made. Namely, the prophecy and the Targaryen role in defeating the Night King and the White Walkers. In Hot D Canon, Aegon dreamed his descendant would be needed to stop the Long Night, and throughout the show and books, there is a prophecy of Azor Ahai. This creates a problem because the ultimate defeat of the Night King comes at the hand of Arya. House Wendt, coming from Eamon and Alice's bloodline, fixes this because Manisa Wendt, married into a rather important Riverlands family, the Tullys, and had a daughter, Catelyn. If the Wends have a little bit of the blood of the dragon, then that mixes with the Starks. This means Arya, Bran, and Sansa are all part of the Song of Ice and Fire, as much as Jon is, and Arya is that descendant of Aegon who ends the Long Night. She also does it with a dagger that's in the Riverlands and could conceivably make it into the possession of House Tully and through them to Petyr Baelish. Of course, immortal-ish, Alice would want to keep an eye on her descendants, and the prophecy, so maybe she ends up as a caretaker, a nanny, perhaps eventually an capital-O Old One. That's right, Old Nan is Alice watching over her part of Song of Ice and Fire. This is fun, classic, old Game of Thrones shit. Yeah, this is a throwback. So fun. Great stuff. My feeling on the Arya thing is that there's no actual connection and the show just decided to do what they wanted to do. Oh, 100%. And also, you can just like make— I really love this. You can make the larger argument that like Jon and Dany are like needed in the scheme of things, and together they are a force, a dyad in the force, and like they are Azor Ahai, stuff like that. But the idea that like Arya is descended from Alice and Aemon and is literally like the descendant of Aegon, who is fun. Certainly makes all of Arya's scenes at Harrenhal even more fun to think about. Great. It's just a great email. Incredible stuff. Really good. Boy. Rapid fire through the rest of these. Just the Boris Baratheon thing. You know, he is going to remain Team Green in the books. So, I wonder if something like Rhaenyra using his house's garb to try to kill— I'm sure it won't go over well. This guy does not like her anyway. Not go over well. Corlys. So, there is a rift with Corlys and Rhaenyra in the books, certainly. Adam and the loyalty of Adam, that's like a huge turning point and a huge inciting moment. Is Orman just going to like— Turn him? Turn him? Is that going to happen? Great question. It could. He's a very convincing fellow. Corlys seems done with Rhaenyra. Corlys definitely seems done with Rhaenyra. Her needs are endless. That—I think they've done a very good job, frankly, dating back seasons to establishing the resentment that Corlys and Rhaenys have toward Rhaenyra. To side with the Greens at this point in the story when his family members are part of Team Black, though, would be, I think, a harder thing to pull off. But we'll see. We already talked about Alan and Bela. It's just, you know, it's not just a hookup. They're getting married. They're in it for the long haul. They're deeply in love. Shepard set up. That line you mentioned really liking. We're the people of the Seven Kingdoms. And when you strike us, you only drive more to our cause. Certainly felt like setting up the Shepard and the flock. And I just thought that the little moment where Silverwing and Vermithor nuzzled was a real potent primer for the absolute devastation that's going to come when Silverwing tries to— Vermithor to move. Sad. We only have two episodes left of this season. Speaking of sad. Tumulton in the two weeks. I hope there's something big in the penultimate. Like, will that be Helena? Or will Helena also be the penultimate? I have genuinely no idea. But that would be a good way to space things out, I guess. Okay. Anything else before we wrap? No, I think we did it. Thank you to our Queen's Guard, Carlos Chiriboga. Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Ramgopal, and Jomi Adeneron. Join us on Friday or Saturday, TBD, for Spider-Man Brand New Day Deep Dive. Sunday night for Talk of the Thrones on Episode 7. And then next week for the Deep Dive on Episode 7. And our Odyssey mailbag and Nolan film rankings. Send us your questions if you haven't yet. Heck yeah. We'll see you then. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. ♪ ♪ you