'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5 Deep Dive

(phone ringing) - Greetings. And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, her founding stones were watered with the blood of men and she's always thirsty. It's Joanna Robinson. - Wow, liketing me to a haunted castle. What could be a higher compliment, honestly? - I quite agree. I quite agree. Joe Weir here, of course, to dive deep all the way down into the fifth episode, somehow already of the third season of House of the Dragon, I'm gonna get to it right after this. (dramatic music) - Programming reminders. Talk the thrones right after the new episode of House of the Dragon, Sunday night with CR. That'll be on episode six, which is batshit bonkers. 'Cause this is only an eight episode season. I don't know how that happened already, but alas, that's the case. And then Comic Con. - Hmm. - It's actually Comic Con's before talk the thrones. - It is. - We're recording talk the thrones before that, but Comic Con is before you'll watch talk the thrones. - It's great, I'm excited. We're going to San Diego, as you've mentioned, one million times we're doing a meetup on Thursday evening at Whiskey Girl, no badge required, and then there's a panel where you do need a badge on Saturday morning. - That's right. - And we'll just be out and about and around in San Diego and taking in panels and drool it over cosplay and enjoying the brisk sea breeze air. - Yeah, it seems like it's gonna be a bazillion degrees. - Cool. So that's exciting for everyone. Come hang with us as we are drenched in sweat. All of the details, times, if you're like, "Wait, where was that, when?" - On the social channels. - Yeah. - On the social handles. Speaking of which, follow along. - Why not? - Follow this podcast, House of R on. Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, you can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify, incredible stuff. And you can also watch those episodes on the ringerverse YouTube channel. So follow along there, Joanna, where can the folks follow us on social? - Oh my gosh, at House of R, (laughs) on TikTok, on Instagram. We're really, we're garing up to cover the new Spider-Man movie. We were really excited about that. You can email us your Spider-Man thoughts, Comic-Con thoughts, certainly your House of the Dragon thoughts, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. - Delightful. Spoiler warning for today, it's the same as always. Everything that happened in this episode of House of the Dragon, we're gonna talk about it. If it's ever happened in a Game of Thrones episode of television, this show, Game of Thrones proper, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, it could come up today. In terms of book information, we'll have a little dabbling of context as we go today, but anything that is in the future in the text, anything from the future of Fire and Blood, we're gonna save that for a quick book spoiler section at the end of the pod and you will have a warning before that section begins if you don't want to hear it. - What about a song of ice and fire? Everything a song of ice and fire is on the table, right? - Always. - Okay. - Always. - Technically in the future of these characters lives, but in the past of our coverage, we only limit our future of two Fire and Blood. - There's just a spoiler section. - We'll talk about it, there's just like a lot of Feast for Crows and Dance Dragons stuff in the water here. And that stuff that hasn't necessarily been adapted into the TV show, so it's kind of interesting with their mining here. - One of the first things we texted each other about about this episode was my goodness, the restraint to do Feast for Traders and not Feast for Crows, wink, wink, nod, nod. Admiral Ball, I wouldn't have had the willpower. I know that much. - That's the spoiler warning. - Yeah. - Those are the Comic-Con details. - That's the intro. - So let's get to the opening snapshot. - All right, quick facts. Episode five, Unbound and Unbent. This episode took its name from the Ormended Darren, seeing that we love so much. So that's a fun little nugget there, 64 minutes. You know, we haven't had a short episode yet this season. I wonder if we'll have some really long ones waiting at the end of the season, who could say for sure. Written by Philippa Goslett. This is the first episode that Philippa has written, but listed as the co-writer for the impending episode seven. Similarly, Nina Lopez Carrado directed this episode, first episode of Hot D that Nina has directed, but also directing the impending episode seven. So there's another kind of teaming of directing and writing across episodes, which we covered a lot in the beginning of the season. So that's fun. For anyone who did not watch Talk to Thronez and if you didn't, what do you do and go check it out? We had a blast. - Yeah. - We had a blast. Set the table, just a little quick opening snapshot taste here. How did you enjoy season three, episode five? - I really enjoyed it. I really quickly on the director front. I want to say that, you know, we were sort of like, Claire Kielner, she's amazing. Why isn't she directing every episode? Maybe she doesn't want to direct the battle episodes or something like that. After watching the BTS for this episode and watching Nina, like, and the entire crew trudged their way through a bog. I was like, if I'm Claire Kielner, I'm like, guess what I'm not doing? The bog episode. I'm fine. This episode has everything. Katz. - That's right. - Which stuff? A lost reference. A Friday night's reference. Like, what more could I ask for? How web skis? What is a spooky closed-off tunnel if not a crevice persevering? You know, you have horror. - You have horror crevice of any sort, especially a crevice persevering. - Big crevice energy at the end of the episode, which I, and a bog is sort of like a mucky crevice of a kind, so I'm just-- - It can become a crevice. - I'm out on it. - Certainly. - It sucks you in. - It can go into your crevices. Sure. Barely any dragons in this episode. We get a little seasmoking, mood answer, action, the background. - We get a lot of big our talk. We get a nice footprint at Kristen. This is what we want to talk about. There's almost-- - Stonies. - There's almost, like, dragons and ectarchy, like, almost like the pieces of the dragon. We get an eye of a dragon. We get a footprint of the dragon. We get this game piece of a dragon. And so, like, and especially for team green and the dragon scale that Aegon uses, right? So it's like these sort of, like, little pieces, little remnants of dragon for team green. Team Black, they're like, "Oh, we just got to park back here in the back of our shot while we're having a conversation." I also think that, like, watching all these members of thinking about team green, the members of the court, Kristen Cole, Lara's, Thailand, et cetera, et cetera, Aiman Aegon out in the wilderness, Gwayne certainly a creature of the court, sort of pretty bowed, pretty bent, pretty broken, pretty muddy, pretty, you know, like, Kristen Cole ditches his armor and his beautiful hand of the king necklace and all of that. So, like, just watching these quarterly creatures unravel as they're trying to make their way through the wilderness. And like, and also, this, like, thing we loved in thrones, which we talk about plenty, we talked about plenty when we were covering night of the Seven Kingdoms, but like, these unlikely duos out on the road. So, like, Aegon, Lara, super tracking, but like, I think it just like continue, like, adding Thailand into the mix is really exciting. Considering like the Aiman, Alice combination, you know, just like, who are these, you know, Adam and Bala out on the road this week. What, what Dynama is cropping up there. So like, that's just, you know, feeds into what I was talking about a lot of the thrones, which is like, how original thronesy this all feels. - The number of, like, house names that were invoked in this episode, we got a salt-wife mention. I mean, the little thrones word cloud peppering across the entire episode felt really undeniable and certainly deliberate. I love the, what you're identifying about the cloaking or shedding or grasping for those aspects of identity. You know, it feels very purposeful where a character, like Kristen, who is going to declare very boldly, will discuss whether we have like, complete buy-in to what he's saying, but he's saying, I have shed myself the greatest warrior at last. And there will be songs of these oaths, right? Whereas the characters, you know, holding sunfires, scale, et cetera. The pieces of the dragon trying to like reclaim aspects of identity desperately searching for a toehold or a foothold to say, this is who I am and I'm strong again and people need to respect. You can call me, you're grace, right? - Yeah. - The dagger of Heller and God Impression. - Thank you. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm missing, this is a mango face might work for both of us, honestly, it's been a week. It's been a week and it's Tuesday. - It's been 11. - Dyer. And yeah, I think, you know, we both, and Chris really, had a lot of fun on talk with the thrones, talking about those duos and also the trios, but like the aspects of subbing and swapping, you know, you have like, you're saying a new duo to really enjoy in Amin and Alice, but we have such an interesting comp then with Alice and Damon, which is fun because Amin and Damon, as we've talked about since a minute, one were go of the show or characters who we are dark mirrors of each other, right? Or we're comparing them all the time. George made it really subtle. He's super subtle. Let's take the D, and put it at the end. - It's crazy. (laughing) - Keep it in your pants. - No, you know. Also, our condensed adult content. They know that going in. - I was just waiting for you to finish that, it's amazing. And what is a parallel experience across character sets, even when those characters think they're an outfit? positioned to each other, the way that Amen and Agon are talking about each other, which character is going to be able to push through and find some accountability. Strong in that respect. We typically go, this is a much like episode four, like a little bit more of a traditional less built around one monumental moment and set piece. We're moving through character sets. We're going back and forth to the same grouping three, four times in episode, right? A lot of conversations either in seven times. Yeah, seven separate times. Either in elegant rooms or that infested box, whichever the case may be. And so typically, we go chronologically through the episode, but this time we're actually going to cluster by character set because it just feels like the only way to do it today. I got to say, the cats in the episode, the thrill and a joy and a delight. Yes. Allens ideas put into action immediately. But we would be remiss if we did not mention the work that the House of the Dragon and HBO social teams are doing on the cat content front. I mean, just in general, it's been out of control this season. It's so good. And like the amount of work they did in advance on set, like getting people to do, like really fun reaction memes to the episode while they were in costume on set is like incredible for thought. Like I really appreciate the work they did. But yes, there's cat cam content. It's just great. I sent it to a friend of mine. I mean, I sent it to you. One of my dearest fondest friends, but I sent it to a friend of mine who loves all cat content. And she doesn't watch the show. And she's like, I'm in. And she's like, not even this cat content can get me to watch the show because I don't trust the show not to kill those cats. And I was like, I can't are you against that. But I will be okay. It's always a concern on that front question. Can I hit you with this text, my pal Sam sent about sort of books four and five of a song of Ison fire and they're they're sort of influenced on the season. He wrote, he texted me, I think I already texted you about how how the renearest stuff feels very Cersei in a feast for crows coated. And so if people don't haven't read that book, that sort of like dissension into paranoia inside of Cersei's mind is a huge part of that book. That's less, I would say, a part of the show. Cole, soulful, all might be lost. March the Riverlands is very Jamie-coated. Aegon and Larus on the run feels very Tyrion in a dance with drag and support the shy made. Feels like Aiman has some urine potential. I've given the requisite dose to where would paste. Obviously, Orman is given off some Ramsey by way of the seven fanaticism fumes. But the dynamic, they've set up with Darren is pure john con young griff stuff, which you you've tracked, Fagon. We'll continue to track this. So like, this is going to come up, but I just think it's, I think it's really fascinating. If in the fanfiction of my mind, a prompt that the writers room for this show set for themselves is like, how can we make season three feel thrones here? And if an answer, they, given the bare bones source material we're working with in fire and blood. And if an answer, they came up with was, what about all this stuff in a feast for crows and dance with dragons, which was not adapted. And how can we mind that sort of stuff? So even stuff like the Sevas game that shows up in this episode is a dance dragon stuff. You know, so I just think that's a, that's a real possibility of just a rewarding thing for book readers who were disappointed. You know, are we going to get, I don't know, Aryam or tell something like what sort of like abandoned plotlines could inspire future things on this show? Be really exciting. It's fun. I mean, you know, I've basically freaked out being able to call faked Aaron Farron because of the fake on young griff thing. And you supported me as you do. And Chris was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And that's our journey and shared experience together and talk to thrones. And we have a great time, folks. I'm into it. Obviously, there's so much there to mind. I think it is an interesting choice given the relationship that George R.R. Martin has to how this television show is adapting his work. I, well, I don't see it as like a literal adaptation. It's more taking elements from the world and like, centering them. Maybe you'll be so honored. I almost see it as like, see George, we are making a show that is very much in your world, sir. One thing I wanted to respond to something we got pushed back or I would say more I got pushed back on last week was my astonishment over the way that Alan was just sort of like appointed to the small council by his dad. And a bunch of people wrote in saying like, isn't this what Tywin did with Tyrion? And I would say, no, because the the king in that instance is a child, Joffrey, you know, and Tywin is like head of that family, which is not Carlos's position inside of this power structure. Tyrion is the uncle of the king, brother of the queen region, and a creature of the court and a canny strategist. Alan, Lord, love him. That's great ideas about cats, but he's a sailor. So all those things are true when Tyrion sits down. There's a lot of like, what are you doing? Yeah, what the fuck? Absolutely, absolutely. What the fuck? But yes, like did a hand of a king in Crow's hand of the queen, but a hand of the king in a previous throne show, yeah, just put their son on the small council. Yes, but the circumstances I think are wildly different. I would also say that the point was less about our Nepo babies abundant in Westeros, which of course they are all the time. That's like kind of the whole thing, right? Legacy, our house. We're obsessed. But more of the fact that everybody accepted immediately that the internship was a foot. Well, this is fine. But I was more the weight was. Not that Coral has tried to do it. Honestly, that feels completely. No, it's not that like I think Alan will be terrible at it. Like, obviously, again, we're already the cat's plan. It's great. He's like, we're going to start rebuilding the fleet. Yeah, focused attention to the matters of the realm. The massive shipwork then. Listen, let's just say this. A lot of the other members of the council are spending all of their time trying to take down each other or gossiping and clear your shot of everybody else. Look, gossip is important work. I would happily watch a 24-hour livestream. You know, when there's like a bird about to be born, some rare bird, and they put the little camera on it. You can just watch in case a little beak pokes through the shell. I didn't know where you're talking about it. I would tap into a version of that for Toran, Madderland, Sapeth, and Threat Frey, explaining the matters of the court to each other. You know, in a little of my Sarah's is a little dying voice for Toran, but it was a very breathy whisper that carried across the whole. Just great stuff. You know, how my tradition for our work slack is that my work slack photo is like Simon Strong. Well, Simon Strong before that it was Lime and Beesbury. It picked like an old fun guy. Toran, Madderland. I mean, Dan Fogler's not that much older than I am, but like, you know, just like that kind of energy that kind of Lime and Beesbury's Simon Strong. I think it's time to make Toran materally my image. That would be more appropriate than him making it onto the opening credits tapestry of history. I would say he being on the tapestry of history was more appropriate than Sapeth Frey being there a week early. A shocking bit of clarity that we now have after seeing, you know, the head drum is clearly what that is, right? And so now the new shot that we get this spring, the new element we get this week. Are we supposed to assume that every week there's just some minor tease of something yet to come that is not relevant in the great flow of history? That's a real change for how that opening tapestry is used. Yeah, it felt like this week Corlis is sort of like unraveling because he is left. I feel like they're not really adhering closely to like this week on sort of ideas. I think that there should be a higher bar for who makes the tapestry of history, even if it is temporary. I don't know because even if we're doing the philanthropy and we're stitching it and we're taking it out. Sapeth Frey and Toran materally are members of the small council, but now they're put there gone. They're not even there anymore. They're not in the tapestry anymore. They were there for a second. They're the different corner of the tapestry. We're like moving around the tapestry. Anyway, weekly barred corner really quickly. Our guy Aiden wrote in two quotes from King Lear for tonight. Great. Love it. "In honor of Aiden and Aegon, ranting about how much easier the other had it, and Kristen's critique of the Westerosi class system," "Wherefore base, when my dimensions are as well compact, my mind is generous, and my shape is true as honest, madam's issue." There's a lot of bastard bitterness in King Lear. And then in honor of Damon's enhanced interrogation techniques, quote, "out vile jelly." Amazing. Really pulled that eye out with a quickness. Yeah. A little slurp-pop sort of situation. Some incredible. This is how we did the prosthetics of the gouged eyes and the slit eyes, and also all of the entrails on the table stuff on. House the dragon's belt. Once again, if you're not watching treat yourself, it is a real testament to the craft and particularly disgusting this week. I thought that really enjoyed the footage of Matt Smith sort of blocking in his entrance, and he's like, "What ho, that's a lot of blood! Tough of the top! That killed me. Killed me." Really good. Great stuff. I watched the BTS very close this week, so it didn't make another CGI bunny mistake. You know? Sometimes you need to be told to pay better attention. And the CGI bunny was at the moment. That's my Rubicon. I crossed it. Incredible. Shall we head to the balance of the pleasure dem? Shall we head? But to the deep dove, do it. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, we're starting Team Green today. And we're starting inside of Team Green with Chris Ryan's favorite characters, Chris and Cole, and Gawain High Tower. Chaos at the River Camp, Joe, the River Lords, have redirected Torch Templeton as instructed there in camp. And they're lamenting the delays that Chris and Cole's tactics have caused them. Stony Sept, it's going to be the last chance to forward the river with an army this large. They have 40,000 river men, right? Minus, a few who were left behind to Garrison Harrenhal and then burned to a crisp. It happens. The people who burned in this episode. Very tough. Man, those tens, they really-- they catch fire quickly. They do. They do. They catch fire quickly. I feel like Wax Canvas would take a little longer to burn, but-- OK. Maybe that's not what's-- Maybe they're not Wax Canvas in Westeros. Interesting. Not like the Wax truckers and last of us. It always comes back to Joel's jacket. I guess so. I've been in like, period appropriate tense. And usually those are like Wax Canvas-y, you know what I mean? That was like a really sick flex that you dropped pretty subtly. I've been in period appropriate tense. Listen, I haven't, but I wish I had. Wish I could say so. You can make that part of your future. Riverlands town, Stony Saps. Southwest of the gods eye by the Blackwater rush. As we continue to kind of just track the map. Lot of where are people in the general Riverlands facility action-- vicinity action in this episode. Duncan Egg passed through. Stony Saps at a certain point. Bobby B. Healed there during his rebellion. Fun little mention on the like, oh, a thrones thing. Front, delightful. Listen, Oscar Tully. Rodney the ruin. You know, I'm gonna agree on ideal weather, Joe. But they do agree that Kristen Cole is a pest. Here's what I think is interesting about sort of the Riverland, this army, this team black army. They're like, they had very little time, one statement left, to leave us with characters who we would, like sort of recognize and understand who they are and where they are. Chris Ryan, not so much, but like, most of us hopefully. They're like, young boy, old man. And if you're feeling really sassy, black alleys here, a lady, a lady warrior. So there's sort of like, every time we cut back to the old man and the young boy, you know where you are, it is the Riverland army. How do you feel like, how they done enough about the, like around these characters to make you feel invested in this? I think this went a good amount of time with Oscar Tully and season two, certainly. It was interesting to bring back Lord Peter Piper here to have Kristen Cole, so let us throw him and stab him. So many times. So our Martin named him Peter Piper. And incredible stuff, incredible stuff. Not spelled, how do you think? Never is. He was one of the lords in this region who was really not vibing with Damon and season two. I don't know how many people watching this season two years later are going to be like, oh, Peter Piper's back. And now I'm more in his loss. I don't know if that has like, frankly, any impact on people. I don't think you need to care about Peter Piper or the fact that Oscar. OK, we're so in the bag for Roddy is book readers that it's hard to separate. Yeah, it's my question to attachment to him. I my hope would be that show watchers who who weren't anticipating Roddy's arrival got a couple glimpses earlier like this guy seems like he fucking rocks. And then as he is sitting there saying that Kristen's past and during comparing him to the fucking deer flies, right? And what a blow for Kristen. He's like trying to mount this legendary stand and they're comparing him to pests that you swad away and try to zap very tough. But the fact that Roddy's like, you know, sharpening his axis, he talks just little stuff that helps to make him feel really cool. And he doesn't seem like he's like a sick sort of architect. I just don't know that he feels like a character. We know literally nothing about him inside of the show yet other than that he is a winter wolf who has come to die. Do it. Do it in the voice. He's cool to die for the dragon queen. Yeah, you know what? That's all you need. It's all we need on the Oscar friend. I'm like, you know, I've been like, where's Bloody Ben? Yeah. I thought it was cool to see Oscar who was very much like my grandfather. Yeah. And then tears later the voice is like, exactly. And I was like, let's go. What if we tried some of Kristen's tactics on him and is ready to attempt some guerrilla warfare on his own? Do I miss Bloody Ben? Sure. Do we need Kermit? I don't know. I'm like, Oscar for me at this point can stand in for the lads. And I'm okay with it. Uh, standing for the lads, Fabian Frankl on an Apple box. This was incredible. The old John Snow. Yeah. You can stand the scenes. Fabian Frankl had to stand on Apple box in order to reach the actor who plays Peter Piper to slit his throat. I do really respect that Fabian went out of his way to be like, I'm 5'11". I'm not like 5'2" when I needed to stand on this. He's like, this guy's really tall, but this was not a very rock and roll. Very funny. I don't know that he's 5'11", but that's okay. Um, I see. I see. Do you think that Goodall Fab's has been listening to the band's playing episode that I did with Yossi on the Dirty Dancing soundtrack? Yeah. And that's why he was singing "Time of Your Life" on the, on the BTS. On the set. It seems likely that he would involve time travel? Yeah, it would involve time travel. And reference it and feel inspired by it specifically when he recorded that behind the scenes. Yeah. Somewhere between eight to 10 months ago. I think that's, that's in balance. That's in play. Yeah. Um, speaking of time. Yeah. It's Cal Trap, a clock. Tiktok. Joe, riding towards Donnie Sap and Gawain asks Kristen before their army is decimated by the crow's feet on the ground. My guy, my friend, have you ever seen the high tower and old town? And he shares the story of playing around the tower with Ormond. Calls him a thin skined twat, which is hysterical, but also pays off immediately as we see Ormond quiver and have to work so hard to contain his rage when Darren beats him. Do you know what this reminded me of? Tell me, have you ever seen it, Eric, or in the white tower, the celly and blimmering like a spike of Poland silver? The bedders caught high in the morning breeze. Have you ever been called home by the clear ringing silver drum bits? There's a good amount of Lord of the Rings in this episode. Um, yeah. The idea of like run the tower this, this game that, that Gwain and Ormond used to play and, and like watching, you know, you was talking about watching the sunrise. I was just thinking, like, from the high tower, it's very sort of like, British Empire, the Sun never sets on the, on the view from the high tower sort of idea. Also, do you think that's where Ormond got his taste for, like, pure clean air? Is this just like at the top of the high tower? Smells great up there. Can't smell anything. Just smell, maybe. Smells crisp and cool, um, entirely possible. It's always interesting, even when the person on the other end of a conversation, like this is a royal, is the air. Like, it reminded me a little bit of Jason Lannister talking to Ranera back in season one and the hunt about like, the view from Gasterly Rock, you know, the reach, the Westerlands. Oh, and it's like, it probably is way nicer out there, right? Yeah. But you're always like, eh, the Superiority. I was, it's so interesting, because I was touched by Gwain's offer, which fell out. Come to the server. So sweet, but then you get to the service. But then like, have you ever seen the high tower part? That's very nice, right? And then it's like, I hope to show it to you one day. I hope to show it to you. That's very sweet. And then he's like, you know, you can be in service to my house. And while you're publishing-- Real record scratch. Real record scratch there. It is interesting that Gwain framed it around the idea of home. Though, you know, you could make a home, given what Kristen said last episode. There is no home for one like me. Not while Ranera sets the throne. We'll come back to this offer and Kristen's response to it later. But let's talk about the cal trops, Joe. Let's talk about what takes down the horses. They call them crow's feet, right? Yeah, and say, I know a thing or two about crow's feet. Yeah, cal trops. This is the sigil of house footly. And there is an inn in Tumbleton called the bloody cal trops. Sick branding. And this will be of note later. Great stuff. But it does feel like a little thing for the book readers. I agree. So the rivermen have gotten ahead. They're using the guerrilla tactics. And it's like so much Kristen for being the scorpion on the ox, even a wreath in the shadow. You've still been bested. It must be exhausting to always feel like you're losing. If your Kristen sucks to suck, Kristen call. Boy, Gawain, frankly, like us. Just wants a nice cup of tea and a warm bath. We love Freddy Fox. We were so excited when he was cast in this role. I think he's been great the whole time and very limited screen time. This was my favorite Freddy Fox episode yet. Not only because of the conversations between Gawain and Kristen were wonderful as they consistently have been. But Gawain's misery has all the exhalegered faces that he made. The sniffles on the wrapping the little blankie towel around him. This was my favorite detail. So good. When they get to the river crossing and the rivermen have been there and burned the bridge and left a team black banner to be like, fuck you. They flexed on them. Freddy Fox's face as he comes up to the crest of the hill, like behind Kristen Cole. And he's just like, he's just like a sad face emoji with the sad, crusty remains of his like fun, let's boys will be boys like war paint that they painted on each other. I know. Do you think that is what Carlos and Scott and Jacob, what they look like every time one of us slacks them. and when we're like, what if we push 15 more minutes? - It's when we hit the like three hour mark, you know. (laughing) At least they can go to the bathroom. - That's true. - Must be nice. - Here's what our listener, Uday, said about sort of this bog-slog. - Yes. - What makes George R. Martin's quote, "Broken Man archetype so effective" is his experience coming of age in the aftermath of the Vietnam War. George is a very active in the anti-war movement. I think about Arya going through a burnt and scarred riverlands and the napalm-esque wildfire on the black water. This theme is all over a feast for crows and the sworn sword around picking up the pieces after war and broken men returning home. - I love this. One of my favorite little bits of connective tissue in this episode to that idea is the choice to name Wendishtown and village by Wendishtown, because that's just outside of Wendishtown. (laughing) She's just outside of Wendishtown. That Wended is sitting on the throne hearing petitions and learns that the mountain has ravaged this village and then sends, he has attained, I attained him and sends Barric out. It's Wendishtown. So this place that we associate with not only a level of like ferocity and violence that there's something on denial a little bit about the fact that the violence of war can never be contained, right? Which is to the point of the email, one of George's areas of examination and missions, but then the way that our central characters respond to that. We're in this general part of the map, right? So it just makes sense as a choice, but it also felt like a little bit of a gray gar, vagar ravaging the riverlands, what's the difference? (laughing) What a question. So it's a great question. Oh boy, I liked to on the connective tissue and like parallels across different aspects of the episode and character sets, the way that queen, when they're working through, the brush and the thorns, right? And we've got to try to cut through her off the road. They knew we would, Christmas like they knew we would be. This is what we'd have to deal with. And queen is speaking about this is another sign, right? A sign that we have made the wrong choice. So which characters are talking about or seeing some sort of omen and then which characters are taking your practical life? Is it a sign or is it a portant, what would you say? Or is it a portant or a sign? Ah, intriguing. Something I think about. (laughing) Kristen's unwilling to give up, Joe. Yeah. That remains true as he ends up kneeling in the dragon. Paw print, this is a fun, it's always fun when you see a certain shot in every single teaser, trailer piece of marketing. And then he's like, ah! - Trigger it is. - Trigger and paw. - Trigger and paw. - There you go, once again. - Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet, cute, cut, leave me a go. (laughing) Let's see those toe beans, me a go. Oh my god, great stuff. Some see a whoreal bitch. And some say, would you like a churro? (laughing) Maybe our things people are churros. - That's true. - Yeah. Even I have never, I think, tried to say that about Vagar. Even I have limits. (laughing) That might be the only one. Great shot of Kristen there. You know, this thing that sparked this existential crisis for him, what place does a man have in a dragon war and sent him down this nihilistic journey? The leeches affixing to their persons, Gwayne pulling one off the thigh, great stuff. - Can I, can I follow up on that comment you made? 'Cause I, we got a really interesting email I thought from Marilisner Finn, who says, this is sort of jumping the gun on the speech we're about to talk about. But Finn said, early in the season, my friend felt worried that Kristen Cole's PTSD arc was making him feel like sympathy for a crappy guy. I responded saying that I believed his nihilism is nearly a devastation that dragons make him not the main character. And it comes from an elevated opinion of self and ego. This week's insanely well-written dripping in hypocrisy speech about being the greatest fighter in the realm, confirms us to me. Thus I petitioned the removal of PTSD from Kristen in exchange for self-interested egotistical nihilism. You know what, that's, it's pretty well with me. I might be back on my Kristen Cole Hader trade, honestly. - I'm excited to get the where are we on Kristen in terms of our sympathy for him or ability to like feel for him, front after what we see in the subject. 'Cause I mean, it's a complicated way to get it. - Crys for him, you know, one single high-tower tear through the fucking filth mad head on his face. Is he crying for Kristen or is he crying for all the ins that he didn't get to stay in along the road? - All the fedabets with this guy. - All the fedabets that he's missed. - Oh man, under that little blankie that Gauin is huddled under Filthy trying to get warm as he sniffles. Again, couldn't be us. Try to convince Kristen the time has come at last. It's over lay down your sword. - Over at again. - Put up your sword, as I would say, and rings of power. - Put up your sword. - Is Galadriel here? - So soon. - Galadriel will be here at Comic-Con. - There are 200 river men for every one of them. That's the math that Gauin updates us on. The odds, Joanna, don't face Kristen because his plan, as Gauin knows, because Kristen said it pretty clearly in the season two finale, is to die would be kind of a relief. Don't you think Gauin is a gassed at this, right? He says, I offer you sanctuary. - I said you could shine my boots at the high tower. - You'd get to do everything I asked you. - You could fluff my feather bed. You could draw my baths for me, but you'd have a grave view. And a beautiful robust, thriving metropolis that you would rarely have time to enjoy. - If it's my permission to, if it's my permission. - You have offered me service to your house. Kristen said, this is one of my favorite pieces of performance from Fabian here, the way he said that, you have offered me service to your house. I am grateful, but I have been a servant all my life. He says he's through defining himself by his oaths. - Let's hear this, Carlos. - I am the realm's greatest warrior. And I will die as such. Clear-eyed, unbent, glorious in battle. And not in their service, finally, but in my hand. Then they will sing songs of it. And Queen Allison herself will hear them. - Joanna, where are you on our guide, Chrissy Cole, after this decision in this declaration? - If it were just his own life, then he was taken into his hands. I could be like, okay, you're a shitty dude who did some shitty things and you decide to die now. Okay, but he's leading all of his men into certain death without I think full, their full consent in that I cannot back. - Yeah. - So I'm out, back out on the Kingmaker. - Back out on the Kingmaker. - Yeah. - This is good. I'm in a place I enjoy being with this character, which is like feeling a little bit of a pole that I still can't believe the show has made me feel, really to its credit. When Kristen is saying, you've offered me service to your house and saying, I'm gonna, I've defined myself by these doors. I'm gonna shed them. There's something about it still, despite what you said and what I'll agree with you and say next, where I feel like a little tug, there's something heartbreaking about it. There's something about the character on an arc aspect of Kristen being able to identify that at all that intrigues me. No more service. Shedding himself of the need to define himself by the service to others in those oaths. But, right, and the butt part of this I think carries the bulk of the weight at the end. - It's interesting. The Dornish theme, you know, 'cause he says unbent. - Yep. - You know, so he's invoking his Dornish heritage. We got a really good email about this, which I will read sort of when we get to the Dornish section of the Ormond Darren stuff. But this idea of Kristen Kohl as this like, he gets accused of being this up-jumped sort of like climber kind of guy, sure. But we believe in upper mobility. We believe that a guy from House Kohl should be able to climb up the ranks and do all these things. But the thing about Kristen Kohl, which has always bothered me, is he just closes the door behind him. And he's like a woman shouldn't rule. These kids are bastards. You know, so he's not like equality for all, you know. He's like advancement for me or like, I feel injured by the hand that I was dealt in life. But I refuse to re-deal the hand of anyone else. - Yeah, and that's the thing ultimately, like I think that he is, it is possible for Kristen and for all people to, and frankly, so much of this episode is about which characters are able to like look at their own decisions and then take some accountability for it. There's a version of this where Kristen has made some sort of sincere progress and gone through some sort of sincere reckoning with his past, but it doesn't feel like like he. I do think Kristen, yeah, advancement, great. He's a striver and always has been and that that advancement those oaths he made those that he defined himself by were ones that he saw it. It's very much to me, Allison, Reneira, yes, but you alone made Virtue Your Banner coded from their conversation at the end of season two. It's like, Kristen did that too. He alone made Virtue his banner, the fact that his entire speech to the troops at the end of it is pulling us right back into that undeniable aspect. Also, he's still doing it for, he is still doing it for Allison. He says it. Well, no, not just Allison, but his own glory and his own songs about it. And that is the ultimate. I agree with what you said about if it were just him versus but and I think there are obviously inside of a war story. There's a noble sacrifice even in a lost hopeless circumstance. That is not what this is. It is Kristen pursuing his own legacy because of his own glory at all. If he listened to Gwayne and they went that away. Yeah, rather than burn, you know, and fuck with the troops, go that away and get to double 10 trying to keep the fight as houses. You know, that would be interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. Also, who cloaks themselves in the light of the seven, you know, inside of this episode when Reneira is here in the set sort of play acting for appearances. And you've got who are the people? It's like Orman who we've already called out for his hypocrisy in terms of invoking the seven and the faith and all of that. Kristen Cole and his, you know, naming of the seven in his speech. Even Allison's like the choice of necklaces literally about to say that exactly so Allison just trading the necklace. I mean, like I understand what she's doing, but like, but like, yeah, these these fucking high towers is team greenies. Yeah, and they're bullshit faith. I like to like think that Allison's internal monologue there is. Well, where did that cloak of righteousness get me? Maybe now I can get me somewhere. Maybe now I need to made out. As Kristen is making his big speech at the end, Gwayne right in the middle is like peace out, man. Could have left at the beginning, could have left after believes right in the middle, extra brutal and he is tumble tin bound. So we will go to tumble tin to check in on our pals. Orman, you're best and bestie or man. He's certainly one of the characters. So I am having the most fun watching, even though he is a complete piece of garbage, morally reprehensible. So Orman's long reach is something we really get to understand in this episode. We'll talk about the Reneira and Damon reception to this clarity later when we get to them. But in tumble tin, we see this scroll sent out return to Orman's right. So he is in communication with the high tower soldier who we met in the second episode of the season when Allison to Helena went up to the battlements to convince her. A really good catch up yours I thought and talk to thrones. Let me be it. Can I be really honest with you had a chromium. Yes, but what in episode two, I was like that guy's handsome. So I really was like really looking at his face. Honey with heterochromia is back. I was really was drawn to. So I immediately recognize it is like, whoa, hot high tower soldier is back. What a thrill. So do you does this all the mystery we were we were pondering last week of like why there are no scrolls from Orman in the records in Orwell's records. Is it that all of this information he was always sending it via sneaky little back channels just to like leave no record behind and then like whoever has men on the ground were then reporting to auto to hot high tower. Whoever else had information we got an email from a lesser Beth because it wasn't sent by Raven it was sent by pigeon which we've never seen a pigeon used as a carrier for first I think in in a thrones show and Beth said perhaps the use of pigeons is a great way to more subtly send messages from a domestic dwelling, especially from what we discovered later our Orman high orman high towers assassins folks seeing a raven fly out of flea bottom window would certainly raise the alarm that something dastardly was a foot so we're using Mallory's favorite wild bird nature nature. Do you think that this explains like is this why there's no paper trail from Ormans at the red keep. It's interesting here is always using the pigeon route not a corporate email guy. Just like always you know games within games within games yeah I mean it's the fills an entirely plausible makes him feel more in control why would he want. Any while or anyone see no his messages who he doesn't have relations he's so much of a character who's rooted in the idea of control right so. County strategy can he say how some can he strategy a foot exactly yeah I think that's really interesting I like that and the idea that then like the the structure that Orman was availing himself of in some capacity because those high tower soldiers were there right they had to be there in order for Alice and to go to them and say lay down your arms Laverner and and now they are still there this is an interesting thing to think about in terms of like how prepared was team black to take over but also how much risk is that all of it right they come in Renira rightly suggest let's interview the staff so you might be loyal to the high towers but was there a and let's make sure all the high tower soldiers who put down their swords are definitely gone right like how many people who are still loyal to team green to Ormans are just there and hiding like lying and wait that's a terrifying prospect for the Renira enthusiasts in the room of which we are this is very worrying right to and then you know we care about Alison and so it's concerning to me he knows too much this guy knows hot guy knows too much hot high tower guy knows he knows that she went up there and did this thing and said let Renira in he's in touch with Orman to have to die but he knows too much let's keep him alive okay let's keep him alive please I would love that and then yeah Renira talking you know when she found out about Tumbleton in the third episode my arm as long he cannot win and we see here like Ormans got the long arm he is inside of King's landing in a way that our characters who are seeking to rule are only beginning to see and understand you know we're going to talk about Dorn in a second but I was thinking about I think about everything about Dorn and the way in which it might inspire via time travel Orman high tower yeah you would benefit from learning some things about Doran's future I think well yes but Prince Prince Doran's like very famous speech yeah yeah from a feast of crowds I believe Prince Doran big big sivas guy Oberyn was ever the Viper deadly dangerous unpredictable no man dare tread on him I was the grass pleasant complacent sweet smelling swing with every breeze who fears to walk upon the grass but it is the grass that hides the Viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes a thinking about Orman as like the Viper in the grass that like inside of Tumbleton there is this Viper waiting to strike and he has shielded himself in in you know in you can't see him he is hidden but his arm is long listen I think he got us with the sweet smelling part of that undeniable undeniable I'm not cool Doran is in the book something about yeah it's one of the all-time well what could have been so much of the Dorn stuff falls into that I also we got this great email from our listener pat picking books that there's like a lot of great books a song by some fire book stuff this week Pat wrote it to say Orman high tower clutching his pearls over the impropriety of quote them putting a woman on the throne gasp is happy to lean in on declaring the youngest son in Dynastic succession as King because Darren is a Targaryen Orman has on hand and is a medical to Orman's influence this tracks with youngest brother Renly Baratheon nearly two centuries later being supported by a different Reach House to be King because House Tyrell feels they can gain from putting their long-time family friend Renly on the throne rather than the downside of supporting Crabby Stanis who remembers how Terrell stole his lunch money at Storm's end great stuff you know the the reaches very much top of mind inside of this episode but yeah just sort of like any king will do you know or or the rules don't get us any other the rules apply only when I need them to apply yeah right how dare they put a woman on the throne but I'll put the youngest son on the throne because he's handy. And he's more high tower cosplay than the rest of them so isn't that an extra added bonus I love the Tyrell mentioned here because one of the fun you know we're going to get to the history lessons here and a little insight you know Orman's got some feedback on Darren's syllabus right and what the tutors are sharing and leaving out but before he gets to Maria Martel the Yellow Tote of Dorn listing some of the houses that Darren is studying and has been learning about House gardeners mentioned which like it's a fun thing to be reminded not that we need to be reminded of how myopic and mad Ormond is and how his idea of high tower superiority is the driving force for him but also completely out of whack with reality like he's so focused on the obscenity as he says in this episode of the Targaryen dragons is the one thing that allowed them to best the high towers like the gardeners rule the reach before the conquest and then when House gardener was decimated the Tyrells begin Morton's not the high towers, so it's interesting to me and do the high towers remain one of the richest and most powerful houses. Yes, that's still true, even though they're not in control, right? But it's interesting that Ormond is not at all engaging with that aspect of his house's history, just the we were kings once we were the superior man and the rule should be ours. It's particularly interesting to think about when we get to some of the housemark telecoms and what the yellow tote of door, what Marya actually achieved and was trying to achieve, which is resistance, not conquest. Exactly, the top of how, oh my god, I'm inspired by the being able to thwart the Targaryen strength and fend off their conquest, we understand the inspiration he's taking there, but Ormond is not mounting a resistance. That's not what he's doing. He's not an andor. He just wants to be in control. So it's great. The history lesson. Ormond finding it just absolutely shocking that the 16 year old kid is like, I'm a little bit bored. Little bit bored reading these dry histories was so good. So funny. More of the Taiwan vibes here as well with. No question. No question. Were you thinking about brand with with Eman and the Vega, I flash a little bit of the brand summer. What aren't we thinking about brand a lot often. Ormond jumps in to educate young Darren on Maria. This was thrilling Joe. Mary Martel, yellow toad or Dorn. Ormond is like, there's only one woman who was gifted with a truly military mind and who I can respect. And I can only respect the one woman who fended off the targ gains for a minute, but I would like to tell you how ugly she was roll out go incredible stuff for Ormond. Ormond dear, you could not suck more. But man, great stuff. But Glinton is I refused to submit. Here's a passage from fire and blood. I will not fight you. Princess Mary, I told Ray Nice. Nor will I kneel to you. Dorn has no king. Tell your brother that I shall release replied, but we will come again princess. And the next time we shall come with fire and blood. Your words said Princess Maria, ours are on bowed on benton broken. You may burn us my lady, but you will not bend us break us or make us bow. This is Dorn. You are not wanted here. Return at your peril. I have some copy writing notes for Mary. I feel like it's a little redundant to say, ours are on bowed on benton broken. You will not bend us break us or make us bow. I'm like, yeah, that's why your words are on bowed on benton broken. You already said that. You put it on the flag. Like I get it, you know, incredible. Yeah, but this is like you're the most one of the most efficient bloggers ruthlessly efficient bloggers and the history of digital journalism. You would have like seven throes put us up on one Sunday night. Mary Martell could simply never. Not like this. No. Great stuff. Oh, man. Should we hear this clip and then discuss this more? I would love it. Carlos. Maria poisoned her own wells hid her soldiers in the very sand of the desert. A castle when they found it was empty. They thought that she was vanquished, but she rose up out of the darkness and slaughtered them in their beds. Is she a hero then or a villain? They really put some sauce on slaughtered. Oh, Tuesday, it's like in his script, he underlined it slaughtered them in their bed. I gotta say, if Darren is healing board with his history lesson, Armand made it fun and exciting. I quite a lot of them in their bed wasn't well. This lady was ugly. What do you make of this? The morality question that she hero then or a villain? The fact that Darren is asking it. The way that Armand sees it. Wonderful scene. Very rich. I mean, I think this is Darren ever cautious to not trigger his uncle, but he's just sort of like, okay, you've painted me a picture of someone who you admire, but I don't know they're doing things that I'm not sure I would ever want to do. Because that sound very heroic to you and you breathes up on talk of the rounds that like, for a lot of the realm, Mary Amartel was not considered a hero. I think they're just bitter that she outfox them and she remained say it with me, unbout unbent, unbroken. They will not now break and they will not fence. Just in case you didn't get the first time. Yeah, I think that you're definitely right. Oh my god, you were able to withstand the assault that we could not is was fueling the realms, read and reception. I still like from Darren the kind of like morality check on is this the way that is there honor in this like, it's just a good way to continue to show us the difference between how Armand and Darren see the world. Well, it's interesting to even like in that not we won't spoil the Odyssey for people have and had the fucking pleasure of seeing it yet, but any we were in the house while the 3000 year old story. But, you know, it's funny because that's like a we were talking about the Game of Thrones influence on that version of Nolan's version of the Odyssey. And so now we're kind of back here where that's on our mind one week after seeing that watching this. The idea of like, guess rights and the violation. That's such a central thing and how we think about thrown stories. It's not guess rights when you're invading dawn, but if you're Darren, if you've grown up thinking about how do you behave? What is the law of tactic? What is the norm of how you engage is sort of interesting for Armand. It's clear, right? He's like, they're heroes because the the Targaryens the thing I have to give them the point I must concede is that they have strength. And Mario Martell was able to challenge that strength and take not Mario directly, but the Dornish War, which spanned years and was very costly. That cost included, as you noted on Sunday night, a dragon and a sister wife, right? I mean, I'm team Viscenia as you know, hot in a different way, but all these women are hot. They're all great. Mario Martell is hot. You know what's hot? Not bowing, not bending, not breaking. I agree. I agree. Mary, I could fuck for sure. Oh, that's a little question. That's a little question. So he's like, yeah, can you see? I just always think it's funny that Aegon's like, I have two sisters. They're both wise. I prefer one. Is much hotter than me. I prefer one. We know this is Orman's ML, right? Like the subterfuge, the theater, and then the truth in the shadows. Of course, this is a heroine of his to channel my inner Taiwan and her and all studying history of his own. The legacy in the realm, you know, the towed hops into her hole when threatened wrote one scribe to quote fire and blood. Another said Mary, a fall like a woman with lies and treachery and witchery, the dornish victory if victory it was was seen to be dishonorable. And the survivors of the fight, the sons and brothers of those who had fallen promise one another, that a day would come and with it a reckoning. Orman doesn't give a shit if anybody thinks he behaves honorably, except he knows when to think about that and when it matters and somebody they're listening and watching, fascinating how he's navigating when to care about the PR and when the achievement will be worth the potential cost. Well, this is why I want to read this email from our listener Amanda about the use of dorn in this episode for both Kristen and for Orman and the way in which they're picking and choosing what aspects of the dornish story bolsters their own self narrative, right? So she says we have multiple instances of characters picking and choosing the words and sections of House Martel to further their own agenda. Dorn doesn't simply dislike the Targaryens. They fight against force will take over. They join the Targaryens on their own terms through diplomacy. Even after the Targaryens are driven from Westeros, House Martel continues to seek an alliance with them. Dorn first plots to wait to wed Aryan to Viserys and after his death sends Quentin across a narrow sea in hopes of forging alliance with Daenerys. Kristen Cole suddenly finding his dornish pride is hypocritical. He has been bent, bowed and broken. He abused and shamed bastard children for being bastards. He fought against the woman's right to rule simply because she is a woman. It is understandable that for once he wants to live in his own terms to die by his own decisions, but him tried to frame it through his dornish heritage further amplifies how much hypocrisy he embodies. He reaches back towards his heritage only when he can justify the choice he already wishes to make. But what he grasps is not Dorn itself. It is a distorted memory of it, one filtered through decades of serving the very system Dorn resisted, one that still only works to justify his actions. He cannot even remember full House Martel words. He remembers only the fragments convenient to him that is perhaps the greatest indication of how far he is drifted. A man born of Dorn now interprets Dorn through a Westerosi lens. Love that. It is the title of the episode, but these characters across the continent invoking legacy in a way that they have edited in a way that is committed to them. And it reminds me of like every time Viserys gets brought up and it's like what would your father have done and it's just like immediately we are misremembering who Viserys was. old cloaks yet again invokes Valyria and he's doing it in a triumphant way and we can just hear Viserys' voice in our ears like We don't remember our histories We're gonna do the same to us Damon brings up dorm too, right? So you have Orman saying Dorn in this one case. I think I better than everyone. I Orman think I better than everyone But Dorn here this one moment in time in history. I can see an aspect of Resistance that I admire Damon listing Dorn again on the conquest to do list, right? one more frontier To conquer just tells us so much about where we aren't yet It's fun like as we're in the night of the Seven Kingdoms era to remember as we talked about a lot covering the first season of that show that There in the second there in the good that's when Dorn was fully brought into the fold through like you like the email No, it's diploma through marriage. Yeah, right? And so that that Dorn email was much longer, but just the idea that like By the time of night of Seven Kingdoms like the Martels are like and Daenerys is more dornish than not Honestly, you know by the time we get all the way down there our beloved bailer breaks fear Does he have silver tar care? No, no Golden dragons and stone dragons Ilya Marta And we're after killed our babies This conversation Joe this lesson transpires with the footly Svastable this was a real real real fun thing to see on the screen at last cool to see how they designed it and Built it. I was like where are the screens in the middle of them to see that they were there to remove of course You know the attention to craft and detail is really just top tier I love the in the BTS they were talking about like what a prop nerd Ryan Condal is Which like we we did a great episode with him Talking about like the greatest props in film history. That's a really fun episode of House of R but Ryan That's a video. Yeah, that's a video pod like you can see Ryan's collection behind him on that video And it's just like insane what he has collected over time Really amazing real goal stuff Super just hobby tremendous hobby, but when they're like Ryan's a prop nerd I was like that's a wild understand But yeah, the building of the Svast board is just like incredible and it's a very symbolically rich setting for this conversation Right a cunning mind can resist the most savage of beasts is what Orman says to Darren and what does Darren do as Orman says this beats him with the drag and Beat them with the dragon Svast in the books Is a way that a thing that Tyrion uses to like sort of understand the mind of his opponents Right, and so it's just like, you know, he would know everything he needs to know about Orman watch at this tantrum But speaking of fake egg on like fake egg on throws a tantrum Over a Svast board, so like you know this again. This is just like yeah the door and association Quentin the on the door and front Yeah, really really really really fun. Yeah, like the mix of Chess and other strategy games that inspired George and the question of whether they'll actually release this It's like a real game that people comply, but that would require actually like locking in all the rules You would need your just participation Maybe we're getting closer. I love in the BTS when they were talking about they're like it has a screen between I was like like battleship and they're like, so we called it battleship, but I was like yeah, exactly great Vertigo risk all of that Um, I love battleship. I don't love risk. I get bored playing risk personally It doesn't engage my mind the way that it does some people some people can play risk for hours and it simply could not be me Yeah, yeah, I know I was never a big risk kitty there, but maybe I didn't have enough experience with it to fall in love It's possible um Darren Joe a character who sees the board or meant as you know that missing the dragon the indignity of losing to the dragon His response which Darren recognizes right away. Oh my god. Oh, we could start over right the I got lucky. I got lucky. He knows Just the the rage that Ormond is about to unleash The fact that Ormond thinks as he is sharing this Oh, is with his pupil that he's the cunning mind the dragon is the savage beast But in fact Darren the dragon is the cunning mind who best Ormond the actual savage beast in this instance is so delicious and wonderful And as we talked about on Sunday the shot of them both you know Darren to move its reset the board and Reaching for in their hands meeting on the stone dragon piece that visual manifestation of seeking to control dragon power and dragon might and dragon advancement Not the subtle thing the show has ever done, but I quite liked it. Well, there's just there's this stuff in the book about In the Savas game, it's sort of like when do you when do you play the dragon like when do you deploy the dragon right and Darren does it perfectly And Ormond doesn't understand How and when to do it I and Reneer is certainly right now is like when do I play my dragon on top of 10? I don't know man. I mean there is something about Darren is like a prodigy here that is is also fun and interesting to think about Never apologize for victory Ormond tells Darren as he has taken a deep breath to try to control himself and walked to stand behind Darren with his hands on his shoulders in a super cool chill really reassuring way supportive Nurturing and then he's like, you know, I'm going to smooth this over by showing you the coin that I had minted to announce you as king declaration of intent What's fun is when you rewatch that scene you can hear him sort of like jangling the coins around earlier when he's talking Like he's building up to this like thing. He's really excited to show Darren. Yeah, he got sidetracked by getting embarrassed being a thin skin One side has no money Go into the veiled bag for coin and Ormond on the other hand has so much that he could just Print up new This great branding this declaration of intent So this is a you mentioned how's Gardner before This is a this is like an interesting gambit inside of a feast for crows that We present various plants a Gardner coin To throw suspicion on the tariles because it because a lot of trail loves to pay for things with a Gardner coin because they're They're thinner and so she's like yeah, sheeding people out of their full price But various to throw suspicion off himself in helping carry an escape plants a Gardner coin This is the quote from a piece for crows Gold yes, but the moment Cersei took it she could tell that it was wrong too small she thought too thin The coin was old and worn on one side was a king's face and profile on the other side of the imprint of a hand This is no dragon she said no kyberna greed it dates before the conquest your grace the king is Garth the twelfth and the hand is the sigil of house Gardner so this idea of a coin a specific coin It could be used to cast a suspicion on certain characters, and so now that there are King Darren coins inside of King's Landing Where could that coin those coins be planted that Reneira could find them and say oh? You're loyal to my enemy or man's paying you. Yeah Dangerous, you know the kind of character would probably ask that question. What can I do with this coin? Misaria. Misaria. I think you might be on to something there. Yeah great shout Amin Dallas What's head to her? Which stuff? Go I can't I'm paraphrasing on the top of my head, but one of the best we love the comments on the pod We love that when you are not only consuming the pop of talking to each other about it one of the best ones in a while was like on Talk to thrones from Sunday night. It's like was anyone else getting paraphrasing just keeping a running list of All the things in here for Joanna and it was like Which stuff go Scraining at like all of the hard emotions Oh, man Joanna stop me if you've heard this before. Yeah, it's raining at her at home. In It is raining in And there's a goat Come on, she's the goat. She's definitely skin-changing into the goat and using it as her security camera to see when someone's ringing the doorbell That's what's happening. She's always exactly where they show up in mid-judge today now when they're scaling the Cliff face to enter via God's wood which like I don't know maybe they need some fencing and her and all that seems like a security risk if that's possible I guess it's maybe she just would have like heard them and known and had time to walk down But she's always there right away. She is using her animal king One of the things she says in this episode is my fortress and indeed it is well indeed it is I have a theory tell me I don't think it's true, but okay, so when she's describing Heron Hall. Yeah, right. Yep, and she says this castle breathes She swallows the greedy the heedless her founding stones were watered with the blood of men, and she's always Thursday iconic frankly In episode two when she was talking Damon about wanting ownership of Heron Hall. Yeah, she says for all their worth They will never satisfy my hunger. So this idea the castle is a she who thirsts and Alice is this woman who hungers and when Alice says She was recently grieved recently grieved because Damon's like we're not gonna give a castle or if I can getting me but just sort of like this grieved Hungry woman and this sort of grieved thirsty castle and just I'm not saying she is the castle, but like what if she's the castle? A physical manifestation of the castle. Yeah, maybe this human hot witch form is just another okay bar now and and goat I use the skin when I need it. Yeah, but I am Heron Hall so mad at me like whatever she needs to be - Great stuff. I love it. On the one who has been grieved front, also just incredible. Like I can be the mommy that you need. What's the mother? The one who has been grieved. I have been grieved. - I have been grieved recently. - Great stuff. - Oh my mother. - Great stuff. They're looking for Amon, these hunters who first enter here, as are the others later, because let's just remember, Raniera put a bounty out and is offering up her and her surprise for anyone who finds Amon or one eye. Here's my question. - Yeah. - You know, and Alice is like, (imitates a dog barking) - On Grateful Queen, she calls Raniera here. And then later says, I'm over mine to send a message to the Queen myself. Great work, Damon. Great work, Raniera. I'm sure this will be fine. - But what does Alice want? If killing Amon would get her hair and haul. And she's not killing him. She's got some other long-con plan here. What does she want? Well, she kills him. Someone else just comes, right? But she kills him by Raniera's edict. She gets hair and haul, which is what she wants. It's a question like, how does she keep it? - Yeah, because you can't. There are always men who will come and try to take her and all. - I think there's that. And how to secure a stronger control. I think one of the answers could be, it's just a hole in the logic of the story at this point. - No, I'm not. - But I actually think she could want something up her. I'm not saying, ooh, gotcha, how's the dragon. I'm just sort of like, oh, what does she want? If her stated want hair and haul could be solved. - In theory, actually. - Well, Amon is sleeping on the werewood bed. - I think part of it feels to me like, Alice is a character. First of all, it's pissed, right? So she's like, Damon, Handway of My Request didn't take me seriously. They're not, I'm not working with them anymore. I think maybe it's just in the mix a little. But also, I think there's a larger question that the Raniera sap of the fray exchange really brings to the fore of, well, what good is Raniera's pledge at all? So Raniera saying you kill Amon, you get the castle, means literally nothing to Alice or probably to anyone else. Because Aaron almost fucking pledged to the phrase by Jason Raniera's response to that now is, my son's dead. Which is like not how this works. - Not sure. - Alice knows all of that. - I feel like Alice knows everything. - That's, you know what? - You're right. Also, to go back to the Odyssey. - Yeah, please. - In an age of a parent magic, which is the opening scroll of the Odyssey. - There, do I believe that Alice, Rivers is like concocting where would paste dreams and changing into a goat and all those other things. Yes. What I also like is there's like plausible deniability that maybe she just threw the rocks where she knew the bats were sleeping. You know what I mean? - Oh yeah. - Yes. - Like, did she summon bats with her witchly power or does she know just how to throw a rock inside of this old castle and then the bats will come forth? You know? - Yeah. - Absolutely. Just asking questions. (laughing) - Great timing from the bats. Great timing from the thunder clap. She's like, oh, in the ghost. And she's like, you got lucky with that thunder. - That one guy, the one hunter looked a little bit like cousin Greg was like, great stuff. Really, really very entertaining. - Oh, true. - And a wonderful watch for that. - Quite enjoyed that. Quite, quite, quite enjoyed that. Aemond has some dream therapy to work through still. We cut to him. Dream of Egon. We hear the rooks' rest screams of Aemond burning Egon. We hear the brothel laugh when Egon and his mates, the sicko fans, who Lyrus will mention elsewhere, discover Aemond curled up, fetal position with Mommy Dearest, Sylvie. - This is another great work for you when you talk to the thrones when you're like, I have forensically analyzed all of these bagels out. - And I know what scenes they come from. - I thought it looked really, really, really cool. The Sapphire Eye. - Sapphire is great. - Like really in all of these. - Man, you know, the like REM sleep, other eye moving than the Sapphire, almost really very specific and cool. When he wakes and he's terrified and he grabs the dagger, he says, Aemond says of Egon. His face was on fire, I saw him. He was clutching at me, dragging me down into the dark. So Aemond is having a parallel experience to Daemon season two experience. We got to see those dreams for Daemon. - Yes. - And so we know how this works. Real memories and real trauma, but with a heronhole twist. Things happen in those dreams that didn't actually happen. - How soon will he be fucking his mom and his dreams? Or in reality? - He already has. - He has fucked Allison's in those dreams. - Okay, cool. - Absolutely no question. Actually, maybe he'd be in a better mood if you woke up and that had already happened 'cause that's clearly what he wants. - I have a very important wig watch update. Please, share it with us. - Our listener, Kat. - Couldn't help but notice that in tonight's episode when waking from his nightmare at Heronhole, Aemond's hair had a distinctive wave to it, the same wave pattern we see in Viseris, Daemon, Aegon, Halena, Allison, and Darren. So is this Aemond's natural hair restored to gentle waves by the rain in the riverlands? Has he been flat ironing it? And every other scene? Or is his hair straight? And these waves are from Alice wet setting with overnight braids. These are important questions. Kat's email was titled Has Aemond been flat ironing his hair this whole time? - I love it. - A great question worth asking, I think. - Construction is entirely possible. - But I think also maybe the damp air of the riverlands could like, you know, sort of frizz it up. And like, you know, bring it out. - A day at the beach, you know? - Yeah. - The human Atlantic, yeah. - Great stuff. What will the twist be that Aemond sees? How many dreams will he get? The question of will we see any of them is on my mind? You know, will we get the clarity of, okay, thrown room scene with Daemon and Viseris, but with the added, I'm locked in, I can't get out. I'm in here talking to Ranero, but then I whoops, chopped our head off. Oh, Viseris, I see you weeping over your dead wife and kid, I feel a little bit bad about how I responded to that in real time. Or will we not actually see any of this? Here's what Condal said on inside the episode. The ideal was to give Aemond a parallel experience to Daemon, if not exactly the same. It's a much more grounded Aeronel story that still pays homage and service to the history of the castle and to the story we told in season two. - Okay. - Because people didn't like it. We have to do it. We're doing it, it's important to do it, but we're gonna do it a little differently. Here's my question for you, I guess. - He's like Mar-hot, which-- - Yeah, I mean, a few are dreams, and I'm like, you know what, okay. But was the thing that people bumped on the dreams? My recollection is that the thing that people bumped on, more of us like Daemon is one of the more fun characters on the show and he was siloed for too long and this plot and away from other people in the storyboard. Was it really just like the dreams were too abundant? Maybe it was, but I think it was a part of it. - Yeah. - I think it was a fix. - All right. I mean, people like Aamon a lot less than they like Daemon. So I'm really excited for this, but I'm curious to see what the tolerance for it would be given that there wasn't a lot of it. - Well, and the question is, how long is it gonna go on? - Right, we don't know. Maybe we just move right on to drinking the breast milk. I mean, Aamon would like that, but he does have a lot of hair and whole therapy to work through and he's in a position to benefit from it in a way that frankly Agon is not. And they're on these parallel journeys of blaming each other. This is where Alice throws the dagger or prophecy across the room as she cradles him, which is just a biologically rich woman, wonderful stuff. - Great stuff. And Aamon does he curls up against her bosom, Joe. Very fetal. He invokes Helena and then calls Alice Mommy. Let's see it. - She saw it. She said I would die and I ruined everything. (siren blaring) (dramatic music) - Incredible stuff. - Yeah, it's seen in Ferris Bueller, when Ferris, who like, when they've been pretending to be a Mia Sarah's dad and he goes pick her up and she like, you know, they kiss or they hug or whatever. And he's like, and the principal's like, also, that's how it is in that family. So I feel like Alice just bonded to him being like, mother, she's like, also, that helps. That's how it is in that family. And then she just starts, she's like, oh, nursery rhyme humming time. Mommy, mommy. - I'm ready. - I'm ready. - I'm reporting for you. - I'm like, we're gonna say, did it remind me of when Simon Strong tried to like, (siren blaring) with Damon, which kind of did. But I think that like, let's just hand Alice everything she needs to have control of Damon. - No question. - Oh, hot mom cake, guess what? Mommy's here. - I'm a, this is a lot of rich story ahead here. Damon undeniably very afraid, which feels notable because this was something that Helena talked about at the beginning of the season, right? After he claimed Vega, he forgot what fear was, but he remembers now. And then when Alice takes that to Damon, he's like, I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. We talked about this a lot at the beginning of the season, what Damon's relationship to and response to fear is and also to loneliness. And, you know, we get the version of like, Helena, once again, like she did with Damon, just observing. Helena says to Alice, and later, yeah, he said, he said, ha, right? He burns, but without fire. So she has access to Damon's experience here, just as she did with Damon when she like made her way into the vision. So that's interesting just from the Helena point of view. But, while Egon and Damon did this episode are both blaming the other, doing the mommy loved to best and blaming the other for all of the ills inflicted upon them. And they both have reason to do that, right? But also, of course, both have a lot of blood on their ledger. I would say that Damon is showing clear regret for what he has done. in a way that feels a little bit different. He's able to maybe benefit from the hair and half therapy here, much like Damon did, but also like it made me think of when he told speaking of Sylvie and the curl up on your bosom sequence, what he said turned that scene, season two, episode two was, "I do regret that business with Luke," right? He is capable of looking inward and realizing that he did something wrong. Does he then make better decisions after? No. No, and that's tragic in a different way than not being able to identify it at all. I do think it's important that the egg on the amons, even as they continue to make decisions we don't agree with, are looking inward. No question. That just makes them more compelling characters. Similarly with Kristen, do I think he deserves a full redemption? No. Is he a more interesting character now that he has started to reflect? Yeah, think about it. No question. Clean his sword with the lemon. Yeah. I really love it. I was so satisfying to watch. It was like people cutting a honeycomb. All videos of the honeycomb cutting. I really find that a lot of things. I do actually. Yeah, and that's my preferred form or say. This is like a mansion party in a week. Yeah. I've been on a honey kick as you know, yeah. It's interesting on that comparison for a two-to-think about the kind of feedback they're getting from those around him, because Lair says we'll get too soon. It was like, I'm going to give you some cold artifacts. You suck. Yeah. Alice is like, let me cradle you against my warm and milky bosom. Yeah. And also you're going to get better at it from. Yeah, you're going to have been dean. Yeah. You're going to benefit from her and all therapies. So they're going to feedback a different form. Which will be more fun. Should we watch? Gentle parenting versus tough love. And see which works out better. It works. You know, listen, they both stab people inside of this episode. Let's talk about that. Amen. Learning the truth about Veigar leaving. This was interesting. That flash of Veigar's eye we talked on. Talk to Throne. It's about that. Bringing to our memory that caught when Reneira is in labor at the end of season one. We caught the Syracx screaming and what edits like this. This figure, Amen moment. That Syracx Reneira moment do. To really heighten the sense of the connection between the idea that the Targaryens are their dragons. They're so connected to them. And then where is the ability to divide? And then if the tie is that deep, how do you maintain some ability to say the hub or subtract and control? But also this idea of like, Veigar going around without Amen. And again, like with Amen and Aegon, you know, finding Sunfire, sweet boy long in the dying. I want everyone to know that you've been. We have pet names for each other via text. We will never reveal them all. They're many and varied. But you have since that discussion on the pod last week been calling me a sweet Sunfire. Which I really like. Gentleist cream puff. Great. Had a hard weekend. It's really brought a smile in my face every time. Show me those nobis. But yeah, this idea of like, how can I. So it's hard enough for Aegon. Yes. Sorry, poor Aegon. But like a dragon lord. Yeah. His whole life. The most beautiful dragon all the realm. Bars from Laris. To have lost. So gorgeous they named him after the Sunfire. To have lost this absolute symbol of his power and worth. Yeah. And then for Amen, who knew what it was like to live without that power. To once again feel abandoned. And to feel, oh no, now I just have to go back to being that boy. Yes. The boy that everyone kicked around and made fun of. Right. And then you get to the indignities of your childhood and your humiliation. Like not been sufficiently avenged. Alice, an idea of like the the cycles that he finds himself in. I feel like to you use the word abandoned. If you're in and it's worse to think the vague are just left. Then did I. Yeah. Oh, and I, so I loved, loved, loved the no without her. I'm nothing line. It's real Tony Stark and Peter Parker. If you're nothing without that suit, then you shouldn't have it to me. I like lies. You know, I love that moment in homecoming. So that was on my mind here. But like so much of Amen's sense of self and identity and worth has stemmed from claiming. Exactly. But I think she mispronounced a dragon name. Just remember it. I feel like I make mistakes all the time and you're perfect. You're perfect. So I needed that. I needed a bag. My bag off. Thank you. Show us your toe, beads, bag off. Oh, man. Like the conversation we were having on Talk to Thrones where Chris was asking, do you think Alice sort of orchestrated that last fight in a way to draw Amen in to come to her rescue? And I think I think absolutely without question that she, she who has defended herself sort of made herself vulnerable so that Amen could have come out and, and you know, stab them and feed the wearable trees and blood and all this sort of stuff like that. But feel like he can do something without her. I'm nothing. No. Guess what? Look at that. You still have a Valerian steel sword and you're a badass fighter with a side wound with like whatever organ's been punctured or whatever. You know, still assuming kidney but who knows for sure. So like, you know, no, you got, you got it in you. My guy. Yeah, fluff them up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I like that he made not just that black fire after the casting of the dagger the black fire was back in his hand, but to actually pierce one of those would be a silence on a root of the wherewood tree given the way that Alice not only in talked in this episode about the blood and the bones of the castle, but talked about those roots, the roots of the bed that Damon slept in. It's like, okay, Damon is making his offering. It was all very good. I had the same read on it as you. Alice could have gotten them out of there in a second if she needed to. Yeah. Um, what is your read speaking of reads though on what is howling with? Wow, you're in your bag today. I love Alan. Love. Uh, the fact that they are is burning alone. This is new for us, right? The fact that Vagar has rebranded as Vagar. Oh, bro, you mean, okay. Uh, I thought you meant like the way that Damon is burning without fire. The trauma hell of the inferno of Aaron Hall. Yeah. So when you look at this point, it's. Vagar, Vagar, with Damon on her back is just indiscriminately burning the Riverlands. So is they are doing this? Because it's what Damon, she thinks Damon wants. I think it's crucial that Damon isn't doing it from an adaptive point of view. Because I think, uh, if we're trying to like have some empathy for Damon, it's important that he hasn't just like lost all of his marbles and it's just like maniacally burning the country. And you asked about this, you know, in the book spoil or section because we were anticipating Alice and Damon becoming a part of the same storyline, you're like, well, if Alice cares this much about like this place, right? How is she going to like enjoy Damon just like toasting the entire countryside? Guess what? It was Vagar along. [laughs] Finger out of all stuff. Just wonderful. You know what else was wonderful, Alice sitting there with the needle point, did it make you think of Ruth from Widow's Bay? Sure. Do you think it's the exact same passage? Exact same quote. Do you think she's, um, she's needle pointing the tapestry of record? No, she would never, never have made some of the choices that have been made for season. She would never put torn mandroly on the tapestry. Never put sap at the threshold. For a sap at those competition for her and I'll absolutely not, absolutely not. Um, I like to visually, we talked earlier this season about how seeing Vagar against the scale and scope of Heron Hall really helps cement Vagar's size, it was the opposite with Damon in a very effective way when he's looking out from the back and he's usually a speck of fucking dust. Oh yeah. Heron Hall is huge. Okay. Okay. Gerthy. Once again, I do have some notes about the green screen look when, you know, so when those guys were climbing the cliffs, but then I remembered what it looked like when John and E. Gret climbed the wall and I was like, it looked just like this. Yeah. And that's a great moment in television. So you know what, I could just unclutch about this. Do you feel those guys had made out furiously at the top of the climb? Yeah, exactly. And I got to hear Baylish talk about it, then, you know, that'd be great. The climb. I know. There it is. This is a great moment in television history, truly wonderful. What do you think about on the adaptive change front for Aement here? And we've talked about other versions of this, the idea that Aement was like, this victory would be mine alone versus like it in the book versus in the show, and again, in the book it's always unreliable, who's account is it, right? But versus in the show, like, cannot convince anyone to go with him, right? Big Selena tears in their eyes and she's like, I'm good, bro, and how sad that is. We get another version of that here because when he finds out from Alice about Renier taking King's landing and it's like, he's so quiet and sad and defeated, I thought I dreamed it. And Alice is like, maybe this time I don't go, oh, you didn't know. Maybe that's not the emperor, different energy here, different energy is required are incredible. Oh my God, that killed me. Small wonder then, this is the passage from Fire and Blood. That one word of the fall of King's landing reached him, the prince felt thrice the fool, his fury was fearsome to behold. This is like real sad boy, so fair. And here he's like, yeah, that's broken, completely, completely broken and that's our end to broken. - Exactly. - Okay, how'd that end broken? And this is where he starts talking about Aemond and how he tormented him and Allison's loves him more. And Aegon, yeah, Aegon. And Allison's like, I know what I need to do. - Have you seen all the memes? I know you're not on Twitter 'cause you're a better person than I am, but like, have you seen, but I see memes on Instagram? - Have you seen all the memes of just sort of like Aegon being like, she loves Aemond more and Aemond being like, she loves Aegon more. And Allison being like, Helena's the only one I really care, (laughs) or like the Don Drauper, I don't think about you at all or just like all these other options for just sort of like, Allison's like, who? - It's a great stuff. I did find myself in my notes accidentally writing Alice or Allison in place of each other a couple times. I'm talking about the pop stuff, which is- - I don't kind of work storage. - I don't think it was an accident. - It kind of works. Aegon and Laira speaking of this parallel journey and blaming each other for all of their misfortune, you was really gratifying. How do people are coming around on layers? My gut layer is strong. Do you want to just talk about the red apple now or do you want to wait 'til I get there? - Okay, here's the deal. (laughs) Go ahead. (laughs) He's got it. And we both agree on this. A shitty red delicious apple. It's a red delicious. No, it is a red delicious apple. - Does it have a shape of a red delicious? - It's a little smaller. - It's a little small, but it is not one of your beloved pink lady cause me- - Certainly, yes, certainly not. - Sort of situation, right? Galaxy's edge, I don't know what they're called. - Okay, exactly. - He's like, "Oh, God, this disgusting red delicious apple." And then Aegon comes back a little like, "Oh, Moby, you were right." - He was on the lung and she am. - And then he goes, "Hair, have an apple." He gives the disgusting, probably wormy red delicious apple. We both hate a red delicious. To the shitty king who has come back. He doesn't wait as precious as that camp. - And so if he liked it, he was sitting there. - So if he liked it, he would have, he was mid-meal, yeah, no idea that, no, he's mid-meal and he had need it. - Aegon, he was saving it for the end cause it's, - No. - He's team red apple and that's undeniable and it's clear. - Okay, so you want to claim red delicious. If you're claiming red delicious. - I don't think that's a red delicious. - It's not the right shape for red delicious. If you worked on house of the dragon season three. - Can you let us know? We know much remains secret. - Matthew need him if you're listening. - Is Lara's team red or team green? - Was that a red delicious? Okay, they're still, before they get back to work's rest and sit with the apple, they have to be out in the woods. - Lara's and Aegon and everyone have heard word of Wendish town, right? - And what, the backyard did there? (laughing) - Bagley. - And Aegon's on the march. He says that he intends to find his brother and kill him or die in the attempt. And Lara says, "Your brother's a coiled viper "and you are hungry and broken and spent." And Aegon just goes full John Locke. - Well, but broken. (laughing) - Yeah. - The three B's, that's you. - Stop telling me what I can't do. - Don't tell me! - What I can't do. - What I can't do. - Walk about of a sword here. - Yeah, John Locke, though, comes from a very different place. Don Locke, then it doesn't make sense. - Quite, quite different. - Interesting that the language that Lara's is using there is the language to keep Aegon in the, where like armor, cripples, bastards, and broken things. - You and me. - Kinship. - Yeah. - Us. - Interesting. And I think certainly the fact that Aegon is rejecting that bond as part of what triggers Lara's response. Later, Aegon feeling very sorry for himself by the busted carriage, launching into a series of just laments against demons, right? It was Cole's pet, he was the prodigy, but the sword, this was a very funny scene in performance from Tom Glencarni, a quick student, fluid and high-volaring. We got a little bit of the, we were saying, oh, Aegon seems to have, we're like, he's got a little bit better at high-volaring. Fucks it up here, right? Hear me, I am the perfect, wonderful, wonderful stuff. And mother loves him best. So, okay, they're blaming each other great. Less remorse from Aegon, certainly. No hot witch to Nuzzle him and help guide him toward that remorse. It is really, really, really tough. - May you all find a hot witch to Nuzzle? - But here's what he has. Lara's strong. - Tough love. - Tough, fucking love. Aegon at every advantage Lara said, every chance to shine. All the things that Lara's himself, of course, never had, because even though Lara's is from a proud family, how strong, Heron Hall, he was never good enough for his own family. And what did Aegon do with those advantages, flying drunken to a battle to which you're not invited, iconic? A dragon so beautiful, they named him after the sun, you could have risen to greatness. Did he or did he do something else? Let's see what Lara's has to say. - He laced, reveling in mediocrity, fucking anything inside and drinking yourself into oblivion to your sycophantic friends. I would tell you the truth. You were a terrible king. It was them. You are a terrible man. - That's in the running for my favorite line of the show to date. - I know you said that on talking to him. - Yeah, I just thought that was incredible. Give me a chill. Because of the way that Matthew need him said fucking anything inside. I actually genuinely, really enjoyed that. - Really, really great. Worse you are a terrible man. - No, I know. - I'm so withering and good in the performances. - You are a terrible king, but worse than that, you are a terrible man. - It's so good. The performance is amazing, but the idea for Lara said, like, Aegon has wasted these advantages. That would be so galling to him, right? And he's like, the fact that Aegon, for several episodes now, has been like, well, with me, I'm like you, you know? - Right. - When Lara is doing everything he can to keep him alive. - Right. - And to say to him, they'll see it as a weakness, but it could be your strength. - Yeah. I was sort of Ben wrote in about Alison's children and the Stark kids. He said, "Jo, made a comment on talk thrones about all the different adults trying to control Alison's children." And it really clicked for me how much the high tower, like, Tark Tower kids, are paralleling the Stark kids when the original Game of Thrones. I don't necessarily think it's intentional from the show's point of view. I've obviously, this is what all the kids are up to and fired, but to a certain degree. But it makes sense in a moment where the black's goodness and the green wickedness are being called into question. Some quick points of similarity. The family paycheck is beheaded by the monarch currently sitting on the Iron Throne. So an auto-ned Cobb tough for me to contemplate. Rob and Helena end up in their mother's care. Arya and Darren are in the care of a ruthless cunning rich head of house, Tywin or Ormond. Sansa and Aegon have been hidden away by someone brilliant and sneaky, but otherwise powerless, bailish and laryse. And Brandon Aiman are with ancient magical beings attempting to use them in their own century-spanning agenda, Alice and the Raven. - I like it. - Very fun. - Very fun. - Where does Tylin fit in? - I'm so, I was so genuinely happy for you. - I know. - And you know what I was really happy about? - That's crazy, 'cause I don't give a shit about the Stark kids. - You know what I'm all, you know what I was really happy about? We never settled the terms of our bet. So I don't have to pay up in any kind of regard because we didn't turn it up. - Tough for you. - Tough for me. - Really tough. But Tylin's year. - Yeah. - And he is, I watched this episode before you did and I said there's something you're really gonna like. And I don't know if you had the experience watching episode where you're like, was it this? This is like when we watch Supergirl and Jummies like there's a needle down, but I'm like, is it this? You're like, was it this? I'm like, was it the John Locke reference? Was it the Tony Stark reference? Is it all the cats? I did text you to ask, did someone show their dick? But then as soon as I got to Thailand, I was like, do you think I would text you? You're gonna love this episode. Someone shows their dick like, no. But Tylin's here. - Yeah, and you kept the fish. - You think he's blending in with his velvet attire? - What is wrong with this guy? - He's a lander. - He's a lander. - He's a lander. If it were Jason, it would be way worse than you know it. - No question. - Jason. - Jason would just be like, would anyone like to sample some of my honey and wine? I'm narratossing that wine aside, it was so great. So he washed up from the battle. - Yeah, he didn't die. He didn't drown in his armor. - How do you feel about the unusually buoyant landers, J.B. and Tylin? - Of all of the connections to other parts of the Game of Thrones canon, this one feels. - The most strong isn't it. - The most thematically resonant. - The stars just don't sink in the drain, can't sink a lander. - Oh man. - You have to cut their head off. It's like a vampire. Very amusing when he shows up and yeah, I mean, vampire or monster. - Or monster. - The vampire Jason landers to put in for this wrong chance. So this is great because right away you're like, the shift so quickly from whoa, an ally here, Holy Hell, into Larison, Thailand like, oh so this is how this would help you. Oh so sorry, oh right, of course. Do you wanna make cast really rock? The new seat of the king. Oh sorry, sorry. Did I miss when Egon made you hand? - While I was out actually fighting in our own circle. - By the way, I fucked the wise. - I was like, there's a lot of monkeys. - Monkey. - You can't even hand the monkeys. - Oh my God, that the monkeys is crazy. It's not gonna like the monkeys wild stuff. While they're going back and forth, Joe. Egon is sitting there. - Yeah. - With the crown of the conqueror, just kind of in a leather bag that Janos can very easily. - If I'm light. - If I'm Lara's, by the way, that crown is with me at all times. You know what I'm saying? - I should have done. - You know who's not babysitting the crown? - Agon. - Can we go with Agon? That's fucking nuts. - Yes, that's nuts. But even Larish and Carriott, where is the, oh, I found an immunity idol on Survivor, and I'm gonna go bury it. Like, you gotta hide this shit. - Now, I know there's the risk of what if we need to move quickly, but the fact that they're carrying this, all Larish is trying to do-- - All Larish is trying to do is get on that caulk and get out of there. - I know, he does really wanna, he does really wanna leave, you're right. He does wanna have to take something. - No. - You probably have to dig a hole now for this body. - Yeah. - Because Agon holding some sweet sunfire scale. - And we should say, this is a path from this shifty looking bearded dude who like the whole time, ever since they first showed up near sunfire has been like, yeah. - I actually think Larish should have, I know he's very unhappy that he should have caught that. - Agon created a bloody trail here that he now is this very funny. - He's being out whispered by Ms. Ariad, every turn of Ms. Esom. - I mean, you see this guy clearly recognizes you, like, take care of this before it, yeah, it becomes a problem. But he is just dealing with Agon's temper tantrum. So there's a lot to do. It's a busy day for Larish yet again, yet again. - No rest. - No restless. Gregorza, you may call me you a grace. I would say that the vibe is not, Agon is really processing Larish's feedback and working to be better. That's not where we find him. - That's certainly Larish's response, which is like, "Oh, Rob, what are we just talk about?" - Yeah, great stuff. - Yeah, Thailand and the reaction, I mean, this is a great trail. I'm really excited to do it. - Honestly, this is gonna be a big, huge boost for my interest in Thailand. - Putting it with Larish. - Yeah, Larish and Agon. - Great stuff. - These great stuff. - Tragedy triplets. - Tragedy triplets is great. Put it on the merch. I love it. - Alison, Elena, and Missaria speaking of. - Fred, I'm having a bad time. - I'm speaking of Tragedy triplets. Moontie order. Or a while, who is spotted by one of Missaria's little birds bringing the stunt cocktail, Moontie and his pocket, but delivering me and delivery to Alison. - Can I just say, by pocket, you mean like fold of his robe, that Moontie. I mean, and also, I have a note for Moontie. - Tell me. - If the whole thing about Moontie is often like a secretive thing, we always put it in the same distinctive little craft thing. - Put that in a gatorade bottle or something. Come on. - You should just write Moontie abortion tea on the side of it. - Change of the flasks is a great note. It's a grain of from all of Westeros. You're so right. They're doing something to help us as viewers that makes those sense in world. You're complete. - Yeah, great, great shout. Or while at the door, the targ guards are there. They're like, you can't come in. I don't know. Disorders of the female persuasion. If you're familiar, trust a man to be like, I don't wanna hear any more go on in. - You're just those. - So. Or while presents the tea. And I thought this sequence was very sad. Because Alison thinks him, calls him of, he's like, I've always been a faithful servant. She says, friend. And I was like, and he's like, nope. He's like, I'm a political animal. And he's like, I did smuggle you over to Dragon Stone when it was politically advantageous to me to do so. I did actually help with egg on when it was politically advantageous for me to do so. Now, not so much. Now I have to work with one era. They've been on the small council together for a very long time. Like, I thought this was real like, it just made us feel how few people Alison really has to she could call a friend. It was very sad on that friend. Also, I was like, not me and mistaken my colleagues for my only friends. - We're friends. - We are. - We're real friends. - We are real friends. - Nice. - Sweet and sorry. - I'm so sorry. (laughing) - Oh man. So, or while I was like, I can't do this again because Rene has watched me. But he did it this time. - There's my favorite thing is like, last night you texted me. You're like, I know your phone's about to break. - Yeah, I know you're breaking out. - I know you're breaking out. - I don't text you at the very breaking hour. It was very sweet. (laughing) - Yeah. - I just like love that. - That you're like, oh, only 13 more minutes to be able to be in touch with Joanna before she breaks out. - Yeah. - I felt seen and known. (laughing) - And understood. - Mm-hmm. - Love you. You're the best. Listen, if Renera finds out about this, she's, she, it's, it doesn't matter the door while I said it's the last time. It doesn't matter that the moon tea if used would have actually helped Renera, it would matter to Renera that or while has this kind of history with Allison and did this thing without telling her. It helps us out of the stakes for Missaria later when Allison's like, between us, I'm sorry I was like, I'm not gonna keep secrets from the queen. I would never. - Not me. - She might. - Yeah. Helena putting food in the capole on the floor, it seems. Just fantastic stuff. I will not have any beast harm. She's the best. Allison brings Helena the tea. There is zero doubt in Allison's mind. What a way. She says you must. It could be a boy. Do you see Egon's heir? Rival to Joffrey to Renera herself. She will kill it. She will have no choice. Or if she does not, she will take it from you. And then Helena says, I don't want it. - I don't want it. - Yeah. - This is fantastic. I mean, like this is so hard because you see it from everyone's perspective. And as we continue to talk about bodily autonomy on the show, we talked about this a lot last week in terms of Darren and Ulf, like who has control of their body, who is a prisoner, who is not. But it's mine, it's my own, it's mine. This sort of like Gollum Bilbo moment for her. But just like, and incredibly, I mean, I just think, I said this on talk forums, but I just think Fiya is like. - Really great. - Fantastic this season. And this giving her this plot line. And just sort of like, watching her later, look at the caterpillar in the cage. I mean, we're worried about this like night-shade butterfly caterpillar stuff. - Well, we've had multiple, you know, the pages of the book about the poison butterfly. - The poison butterfly. - And then the conversation between Helena and Jehara this episode about, like it would be the death for you and me. It's multiple, multiple mentions now. - That's what, not great. But like looking at that little caterpillar inside of the cage and then her not being able to go outside, you know, make do with the window, but she's can't even open the window. She's just sort of like, she's caged in, yeah. And also, I can't, I think Fiya has talked about this directly, the actress who plays Helena. But certainly a lot of people have interpreted Helena's aspect on the show as neurodivergent. You know, some representation of neurodivergence. And I think especially like when she is talking anxiously about wanting to look out, but we need to see the moon. It struck me like that demeanor. I just find this performance fascinating and the writing for her this season I think has been extraordinary. I loved the scene. I mean, the way that she responds here to Allyson just the refusal, right? But I loved also the scene in the God's Wood. When Allyson, when she clocks that Allyson is lying, you know, they have to go to night, right? She, he's like a disappointed side. - Yeah. - She's just like, you go away when you lie. - And, you know, the fact that Allyson, while doing this to try to save herself to escape, of course, but also to save her daughter, Helena. - Yeah. The thing that she has decided is more important than anything else in the world to her. They didn't order to try to do that. She is asking Helena not save her own child to leave her child behind in two different versions than if that circumstance here is just the desperate hour for these characters is so palpable and intense here. I thought it was also really interesting to think about Allyson's history with Munti, right? We think about, you know, I mean, everything from season one is so present here. You have, like we talked about on Talk to Thrones, that the fierceness of that, the root of that seed of that lesson from Allyson to the fifth episode of season one, the cleave to her mercy part that we talked about on Sunday. But, you know, the realm will not accept her to secure her cleave. She will have to put your children to the sword, which sparked the, you are the challenge lesson from Allyson to egg on that this is like an undeniable aspect of this. - But like, I just don't know that I agree. - Yeah, but it's like, that's what's sad about it. - Right. And it's just like, auto has poisoned her. - Exactly. - And what she keeps repeating, which is like, the crown will make you do stuff. The crown will make you do things blah, blah. But it's just sort of like, is that true? I mean, Ranera is up against the wall here and like, shit that happens with, in flea bottom in the last episode or whatever, which was not her directive, but like, could be traced to her. So like that, like the position is making, is blooding her hands in ways that she certainly wouldn't want. But there have been monarchs who have not been warped by the crown. - Yeah. - You know, Viserys, I would not say became like a cruel evil person. - No, we're just ineffectual. - I agree with you and I know that's what's so sad that like, whether it's auto's poison in the well of a different sort and episode that talks about poison wells, or that the way that Alice and thinks about the crushing weight of the throne, which she said to Ranera, was she'll invoke the sorry on this episode. - What it did to her. - What was it she had to make? - There's the predestination aspect of it. - I just don't think Ranera now bring agon the views up to me, but like, I think, you know, if she had been given the crown, right? Well, she's not killing these kids. Well, and there's that commentary of like how much ability do the characters even when at this point in their arc they're defining their journeys by saying, I will rebel against the thing that someone has told me has to be true my entire life. You know, the choice to go into the tunnel at the end of the episode, the choice to use the necklace to secure the the maid's outfit from a servant in an episode where Alison realizes everyone is spying on her all the time and that person could just go turn her in. It's all desperation. So we think of the like, "Renese, Alison, window in the wall of your prison." And it's like, that's not enough for Alison's anymore actually. She needs to break out of the prison entirely. Big bath, a big bath, a butt is carrying that progress with the pull constantly back into these lessons of inevitability from the past. There's like a real tragic aspect to that, the commentary of that story. And like, you know, the moon tea isn't the judgment that Alison brought to Reneira early in season one on this like, "Bows of the Pleasure to End Dayman, the moon tea, reaching her, all of that into her own moment of need." In season two. Into now a wider, truer sense of understanding and appreciation for the fact that this can save them from a circumstance. It's almost like you should be a girl's go from the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, and so we see all this progress for Alison, but then the inability and certain other respects to to break free and just you think about the decades and decades that she would spend like having that beaten into her by auto and other people using her as a tool. It's like, it's really, it's very sad. It's very, very, very sad. I did notice that when they tried to make the first escape attempt, Elena's like, "Where's Johara?" And Alison says, "They're going to meet us." Didn't seem like even after the look away when you lie that the Johara was going to be a part of this. That's interesting to confront and consider. Alison does try to protect her child at the cost of her own reputation when she pretends that first at the headache medicine. I'm sorry I said she could sniff a lie. She also is a woman of the night and a of a many brothel. She could sniff the moon tea in a second. Also, it's in that mug that you always put moon tea in. Oh man. So she peels to Missaria in a couple of different scenes in this episode. Initially, it's the indignities that the women endure, and also that I am her prisoner as you were once, which is savvy because it's a way to remind her of how tenuous it can all be, right? Your fortune, Missaria has improved, but mine. Oh, they're away. And so that could happen for you too. And then later when Missaria is waiting to break the wheel. That's break the wheel. Oh, that is the order of things. I'm sorry I just waited to get the steps to catch them. Very amusing. Did you think I would not be here? And so then Alison test to make an appeal of a different sort because Missaria understands now. Okay. Elena is the pregnant one. Inconvenian air. Alison says a couple interesting things. We get a, the white worm, your reputation. Cunning figure, who others feared, not a lap dog. These are rich words in the mouth of a high tower. I just love her accent. Now I've come all the way back around. Put her on a podcast. You think she was like lap dog. Let me file that away until I can check in with Jane Erin and her dogs. You're theory might be right. Have you seen that the veil is back in the preview for next week? I noticed that. I mean, maybe the characters dogs are on the case. Really possible. We've got the Missaria down. Only Damon can walk that path with Ranera. This is what Alison says. She's kind of using Missaria's own game here of working a wedge, you know, spotting the jealousy. But Missaria is more primed maybe for this than she otherwise would have been because Ranera and the small council scene when she follows Damon out. Missaria tries to stop her to talk to her and Ranera is like not now. Gotta go talk to Damon. Her intent is maybe on you now that you bathe in the warm light of her gaze, but will you stake so high a wager on the whims of a dragon rider? What does she make of the dragon rider part of that? Um, these incestuous Targaryens. Yeah. That really felt like Alison. It's like it's tactic here, but sliding back into her. Oh yeah, just bit or much babe. Just like, honestly, Alison's like her warm gaze is on you now, but yeah, I once knew the warmth of that gaze and then it slid elsewhere. And it feels terrible and I know and you'll know it too. Ranera is a cunning spider long ago. She drew Alison into her web and intoxicated her. Kristen Cole, furiously masturbating. The scent of orange and cinnamon in the room around him to set the mood. Kristen feels to be like the kind of guy who would jack off without lotion, you know, just to punish himself a lot. Yeah. Yeah. That's what the seven would want. It feels good, but so bad. So bad. Uh, what do you think Miss Ali is going to do here? I think the appeal Alison makes this really smart. You want to bask in that glow, but you're not as close to her as Damon is and you never will be and trust me, I know. I think the most interesting thing for the plot is that Miss Aria does not tell Ranera about this and see both Miss Aria and Damon are keeping a key secret from Ranera. And Miss Aria still can fact find and try to gain intel as Mr. Sivisper's and use whatever she learns about the veil against him. But this is this is good Mr. Sivisper's stuff. It's real lyrus. I left you auto high tower in the dungeons when the high tower is when the high towers are back in power. Yes. She can be like, remember, I didn't stitch on you about the moon tea. Yeah. And though you got it in the mug that everyone gets a moon tea and somebody think about. I'm intrigued by this too. What does the potential of this sets up? And the information that certain people possess and the choices they can make based on that. It's a good place for the story to be less good place to be. I would say is trapped in Ranera's former sex tunnel, the tunnel, a cat phrasing. Well, they all want to be as you know, didn't talk to the runs in Ranera's sex tunnel. All of them. The cat. I mean, the cats are around Helena all the time. There's the cat on the small council table. The cats are everywhere around the stairs. The cat, Helena, very tuned to the animals. So this was great. The fact that Helena's, Alessons like compa bed. I was like, she senses something. The canals by the door. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And so we recognize the mural. This is Ranera's. Yeah. That also the pleasure to add out for a night of the day. I love that you say we recognize the mural. Do you think based on the mural alone everyone at home is like, that's the door. Ranera took out. There's the closet. Yeah. You were like, I remember in season one, there were dragon claws, or did you consult the tape? I went to the tape. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. Ranera using this for sex and fun. Yeah. Alesson judging her in real time for it. Alesson, because they couldn't use the blood and cheese tunnel, which was as Helena responded to in real time, a very harrowing, dramatic time to, yeah, confront. And then in the lady bail is room. That's right. Alesson getting trapped in the tunnel that brought Ranera pleasure. I also think it's interesting that she doesn't know about the tunnels being bricked up. This is why you asked an interesting question, because on talk of the thrones, I stated very definitively without any reason to know that it was a definitive thing to say that I like the idea of like the, I, or the hoisted on your own family putard aspect of this, that the high towers at auto was like, oh, that was the pleasure, Dan, that that tunnel in Ranera's room would have gotten boarded up because of the auto meddling and high tower interference. And then it hurts the high towers all these years later. You asked very reasonably, is it possible that they just got boarded up after blood and cheese? I think that is definitely possible. I think it's, it's just more, I, I want it to be the other thing, but I feel like if they boarded up the Amon's room tunnel after blood and cheese because they knew that was the entry point, Alesson would have known that that happened and not suggested that they use it. But maybe not. I have a fuck nose. I'm sure it was auto. Like, I'm sure it was. And also, they can't have locked up every, Mager's tunnels are boundless. Yes. Everyone who built the, the Mager's all fast, who's like, you're dead now. I'm going to kill you. No one will know the secrets, but me. Great stuff. What a guy. Listen, at the end of the episode, they show a tease for next week and the Halein and Alesson are not trapped in the tunnel. So I know a little inert maybe. I don't know. We were like, what's this about? You know, Chris is like, is this a big deal? I don't know. I guess not. I guess not. But we're did once again by the spectra of Ranera. I guess this is our listening Charlie. Wrote in to say, George R. Martin was heavily influenced in the song of Ice and Fire by Tad Williams, trilogy, memory, sorrow, thorn, so much so that even named the brothers in the house. Well, after memory, sorrow, thorn characters, Joshua and Elias. A very important part of those books has a character lost in Castle Passage ways, blinded by darkness and guided by you guessed it, a cat's meow. I mean, fun. Delightful. You, when we were texting about this right away, we're like, because I was like, maybe a cat will lead them to freedom and you were like, like, Aria. And I was just like, I mean, it's all still my fault. It's green. I would say I hope they're okay, but they, they showed us that they are fine. All right, we're done with the greens. Fuck them. Vaga. See you next week, Vaga. Maybe. What does it say? The Black Council. Sabah's a threat phrase here. We already kind of talked about this. We should know, I guess this is big book change. I don't, I actually haven't seen it. There's much chatter about this. Like, Sabah's phrase, badass, warrior and not an old lady gossip. That means that I really like this character. All along with Torn Manorly, it's like a great, you know, bit of spice on the small council. This is like the, this is like the spiciest small council that we've seen. If you've ever seen the Danny K movie, The Court Jester, one of my favorite movies of all time. Like not. But there's this wonderful, mildered knotweck who plays the witch in that. It's a medieval. There's this very famous routine, the flag with the dragon is the pellet with the poison. No? But I'm interested in the puzzle of the puzzle of the puzzle. Yeah, anyway. The brew that is true. Anyway, this witch, it's like an incredibly cool movie movie when I just found the lit, but this witch character is the one who's like delivering this right. And she's just got this like really cool expressive face in these like large round. There's a witch involved. Large round eyes. And you know, she's got the sort of like the veil and the wimpull sort of look that Sabah the Frey has here, which is also, of course, an Olenad Tyrell. Look, but I was just sort of like, she reminded me so much of this woman I love from The Court Jester. But just like this, I mean, it's just a great expressive face. Yeah. And a great costume that sets her apart from everyone else, like a different, you know, different style than everyone else. And I think the way that she and Torrin are gossiping is a funny, it's a sterical, but be like a reminder of, you know, what the whispers in the hall would be and also just like real fire and blood. Yeah. Some people said, Miss Aria was a great mistress of whispers, some said, whore. Like, it's just, yes, it's, it's, it's very, uh, it's highly comic. I love that observation. And also just the end note of, is it always like this? The complete shit show that team black is the fact that these two newer observers are like, these guys are really, really good. Um, do you think you mentioned, you know, that Elena shares that style? One of the greatest news that's ever happened in the history of the internet was that the way that it tells her, yeah, I want her to know it was me inspired all of the cats wrapped in towel memes of the best one is the cat that's in like a bin. It's just remarkable stuff. Will sabot a fray costume as such inspire some more cat memes. One can only fucking help. Dare to dream. Um, Wed roll. Do you think she's playing on the small council? Let me say this. And it's another note for team black. I don't think they give a shit. They're just like, come sit and help because they're desperate. Okay. How well torrents master of coin. Yeah. And the story of the master of whisper. She has no way to hand. But maybe hand. Damon is King consort slash. She's doing some laws stuff. He's trying to use her laws. I mean, not. I think anyone's masters of laws. It might be Sabah the fray, who's like, remember this contract that you promised me? Who's master of ships? Alan is both handled. Alan is calling double duty. Alan's pulling double duty. Yeah. I mean, you know, Sabah the fray, not on her nearest council in the books, so we don't have a formal title to point to. I would say that Ranero looking at this and saying, I'll have a role. Three people have clear and my stars are all. Alan has a preposterous role, but it's there. It's just Damon being like, I do what I want. So I think this type of the fray probably has a title. That's what I think. But none of them would make sense. I don't think. And that's okay. But Damon is just like, I do what I want. I'm Damon Targaryen. I mean, King Concerts work. It's worked. It's worked to this point. He's still had the dwindling gold clothes. He's still got it. The speech worked, not for long, but like for a second. They're like corpses. You know what? Can't spend money if you're disemboweled in dead, but you got me for a second, damn. Um, I can't believe you called them Dave. What does the air move with CRs on my mind always? The fact that Ranero is like, yeah, my dad's son told you you can have her in home. But what if I just give you the small council seat and said, I think the fray's are an interesting house, actually, through which to assess that because they would really value that small council seat and proximity to power and the way that that made their house seem important and grand. Like, that would matter to the phrase. But the idea that Ranero once again is like, the pledge we made doesn't matter. Oh, but I give you what you're asking for. Yeah. I'll tell you what you value. You know money. Right. Oh, no drink. Sabatha. No hair and haul. That belly is mine. Would you like this instead? Like if you don't honor your word, why should your vassals? Something to think about. To think about Adam and Bayla make their report here in the small council and then they're out in the field together. And this is great because Adam is very much like the channeling the reineas, um, Maley's when Damon was like, get back out into the field and at the beginning of season two and reineas was like, Maley's was resting gorgeous. Or so must I? You know, Adam's like, we just got back. He's like, Bayla must rest in gorgeous. Yeah. It feels like I'm good. Yeah. I'm good. Um, Bayla's like, don't tell me what I can't do. Don't tell me what I can't do vibes on these two real vibes. Adam does a little bit of the like rings of power speaking of rings adventures. They must be shared. That's interesting. And then I'll come find you and we'll fly to exile. But only if we eat first. That's a little orange and cinnamon to me. So it's a whiff orange and cinnamon. They had real chemistry. Oh, no question. Bayla wearing has put the, a wardrobe change put the Targaryen red and black aside and is wearing the lorry and blue and says to Adam when they're out in the field. And I know I just hear what you've talked to me. I know I just said that Adam and Bayla have vibes. They are related, but I don't know why this is that's why this should stop anyone for. Come on. So let's go on. He's our uncle, right? Yes. Wait, let's see. Yeah, because they're Coralysis. Coralysis for grandpa. Yeah. And they're Coralysis sons. Yes. Great stuff. Uncle Adam. Hot. Hot. I don't go. I don't go. I don't go. Adam. Uh, and then I'll come and find you and we'll fly to exile. Wonderful stuff. The pride language. I thought it was interesting for Bayla in that conversation, a middle of the like ordained language, both between them there, but just in general across the the episode and the character set. The initial before they're out in the field, and we visit them there, the initial report that they make to the small council. There's a lot of intel being shared, you know, or while has his report, Adam and Bayla have their reports. Other people are, Damon's like, I'd like us to focus on the gold cloaks and Reneira. That sequence is edited so that multiple times. Reneira goes back to Vegar and Amand and the like myopic tunnel vision quest. Bagga. Bagga. Before later saying, okay, like there's a man's. Bagga might be how they pronounce it in a high level. You know, how I'm like when Reneira and Damon are talking, it's like diamond, you know what I mean? Yes. Bagga. I was going to ask you when we got to the sepcene. What do you think about learning high the iron before season four? Should we try a while skateboarding and archery or archery? Yeah, exactly. Should we do it? Yeah. Oh man. That's a great way to die. The gold glow conundrum. So Reneira follows Damon out of the small council meeting and is like, it's very funny when Damon says Ormond is a fox who's gone to ground, no threat at all, and then later has to be like, we should have burned him. There's this coin who will have made a few mistakes, but of course I said all along, we should burn them. I didn't check the kid and I told you he was a fox who had gone to ground, but I was right all on classic David moment there. Um, here's what Condal said, because Reneira initially says, this is not a matter for the crown, the gold looks, right? And here's what Condal said on inside the episode. They, so team black, they don't know how to wage combat against him, Ormond, which is exactly the design of Ormond's campaign. It's to make them feel helpless and ineffectual and frustrated and maybe go to them into making a mistake. His design at the end of the day is to make sure nobody wants to be a gold cloak and people are afraid to mount a defense in Reneira's name. I would say that Ormond is successfully executing that mission so far. Who's going to want to be a gold cloak after the feast for traders? Yes. And they're also not getting paid. Right. That's also not money and your viscera is on the table. What if I paid you and you had to keep your intestines inside your body? Wow. You have to take a shit with those intestines far away from me because I don't like the smell of it, but they can be yours. That's so funny to think about like, you know, because I've been wondering like how detailed Ormond was and his pigeon carried instructions in terms of like how to wage this war of terror on the street. Yeah. That smells okay. In case I ever need to visit or do it in the stinkiest way. You know, it'll drive them crazy. Bad smells. Bad smells are the worst. Make it smell bad. Everyone is similar. He's like make it smell real bad. I love that idea. Reneira is like, Damon, you're giving me dragon stone vibes. When my entire council constantly tried to wage my war without me talk over. I was told to guard behind for a reason. I slapped him in the face. I slapped that guy in the face in the hallway. Maybe think two of when Allison went to auto and was like, if you keep challenging me at that table of men, my voice isn't going to carry any weight. You can be the queen. You can be the dowager queen. The men are always going to try to talk over you and tell you what you should do instead. Damon. I mean, I love Damon. He's so funny. I laugh. When he's like on the contrary, I flush to fill in your commands. Just later, I chuckle because it's Damon and it's a hysterical performance, but it's like outrageous. It's going now. We have to balance that with saying that Reneira needs counselors and advice. She can rely on and that she wants, and we talked about this last week, but like the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of the kind of bond between not only or while and Reneira, but Alan and Reneer are like, who has an opinion? Who has something they can contribute? So Reneer wants to hear from advisors. He was like useless when nobody would offer anything up a couple of episodes ago. That's different from Damon just being like the thing you need me to do. Yeah, I'm just going to not do it and do the thing I wanted. Yeah, I'll get to it. They're very, very tough. Damon tells Reneer, you fucked up by sending the city watch after the graffiti painters. This is a different version, but a little bit of a piece, at least adjacent to or while asking Reneer, why does it matter if they annoy you? So what did you think of this? Like, Reneer is very focused on and hung up on the Bastard Talk for all the reasons we discussed at length previously. Is Damon right to not worry about it, to let it go? Is this something Reneer and it's just faithful and challenge? I think it's really hard for him to ask that of her when Joffrey, you know, shows up in this very episode. Joffrey, who's the last remaining strong son, who is now the heir to the throne, and is now the most vulnerable. The kid who shows up that Reneer can't bring herself to see a wake, because she'll have to talk to him about Jason Luke or whoever else knows what, you know, and is I think probably afraid to feel close to him. And Jason was just like, Jason, her heir was like in every small council meeting, for better or for worse, was like in every small council meeting, was by her side, had been trained this whole time, she could start over with Joffrey, but like Joffrey is so vulnerable, the way that Jason Luke were, and Damon has just never really cared as much about those boys as he does about his own, you know, blonde babies. Some of his own children, yeah. The blonde boys who are the heir to the throne. Like, I really think he would prefer, like, if this were his one of his white supremacists, blonde targ babies that, you know, say hello. Yeah, well, no, but he would be like, I care what they're saying about my children in the street, but this isn't his son, it's Joffrey. And so I think there's forever going to be a disconnect there. I think you're completely right, no question. I think there's also like the luxury that Damon, because people have talked shit about Damon his whole life. Yeah. And he's got, he's like hilarious. Yeah, either not care or embrace it, and somehow like imbue and inject it into his identity. Prince of Flea Bottom, right, Prince of Flea Bottom, right, you know, Lord of the Tides. Yeah. Damon and Lucer assess this gold cloak situation across a couple of seas in this episode. First, they're out in the streets. Kings landing behind them in the shots. Handing out the alms to the small folks. So they have, oh, courtesy of Queen Raniera, the contrast in what Damon wanted to focus on, and what Raniera wanted to focus on. Interesting. But great stuff when Damon. Just what a time in House of the Dragon for Damon to be a advising temperance, but the fact that he's like, you're really fucked up, Lucer and Lucer's like, my guy, where do you think I learned it? Remember we used to gelled people in season one? Remember what we had to bring in wagon after wagon to put all the severed body parts that you have cut off that I learned this from you? What are you talking about? My god, um, how's the mood among the Ben? Not great. Damon wonders. It's not great. They don't have any money. And they are dying in their own shit. So that's not ideal. What did you, on the, you mentioned last week, we got the email about the anachronistic language. A bedroom. What did you make of? It's been a minute. It's like, I was like, wait, what? It's been a minute when we said that. That's weird. Oh god, um, I think it's interesting for Damon to have to confront how far his influence can carry them, right? It was enough to win them. The goal clocks kind of keep them. And if he keeps them, can that keep them safe? I think it's not just the influence. It's like, you know, he's so proud of the fact that like it was his guys in the moment, in the crucial moment of taking the throne. It was his guys and their loyalty to him. Very validating. That, you know, one than the day. Otherwise, they were fucked in that throne room. But he's like, and you know, so like, they brought no army, stupid. Damon's plan is stupid. But like, the goal clocks showed up for him and with, you know, with this pledge of loyalty and the North remembers and all the sort of stuff like that. And so I think all the sudden Damon cares more about them than ever before, because they reflect his own sort of glory. Yes. You know, versus Jeff, who he could give two fucks about. So, you know, it's a little job. I agree. It's a little job. Yeah. I hope we get a look at her, her axis soon. Cause Jeff is, as you noted on talk to the throne, same actor. They didn't age to kid up by six to seven years between seasons. Older or for sure. Again, it's been a long time since this show was on. So I would love a look at her axis soon. Okay. Yeah. We already talked about the speech today. Jane Aaron would be like, pathetic, a dinky little lizard wet thing. God. We talked about the speech that Damon makes already. So let's go to the set. Incredible scene. Incredible scene between Damon and Ranera as always. We can have a scene like this if we learn how to learn. It's something to think about. Okay. I'll do it. Great. We're probably going to have two full years. Likiri. Likiri. Yeah. Likiri. Likiri. Yeah. Brandy almost there. Likiri. Diamond. But I near us. I gum. I gum. Damon's laughter leading him into the scene as he sees Ranera. Okay. Well, will you be able to identify it perfectly if she dreams about it later? That was the laugh that Damon made when he walked into the set. I have to be honest. Yes. This laugh. Yes. I think so. You're a wonder. No, it's Damon's the wonder. Great stuff. More chosen by the God's talk in the scene, right? The high septum error jack me, but the gods themselves made me queen. They sent me a dragon in the darkstower says later. If this is their will, then who dares stand in my path? This is it. This is the two references inside this episode about Adam being her sort of talisman, right? They sent me a dragon in the darkest hour. She's talking specifically about C-smoke and Adam. And so, like, just establishing what he means and what that dragon means to her. Yeah, and bail is like, she just blames me for her sundying. And he's like the oranges and cinnamon. So we go. Hot little niece of mine. Incredible. I've seen what it like. It's like for uncles and nieces to marry, speaking of diamond or nylon. On the scenes from a marriage front. Yeah. Okay, so the public argument, because the scene goes out of its way to show us as there are other people here. They switch to Hyvalarian to create their cocoon of privacy so that others were not able to hear what they're saying. Two things. One, they then switch back into the common tongue to insult each other. Two, they can be speaking any language they want. It's very apparent that they're arguing at the end of this. And so it's just yet again, a like, you know, demon saying, you are more than this and walking out. It's not as bad as Sabbath afraid, challenging Reneira in the hall. I love when Reneira turned, it was like, chill. And Harwin Week was like, bitch. Harwin Week is gonna stick, I think. Really good. Really good. Yeah, he does the like, I've got my end of my problem. I want to show you this isn't gonna, this isn't gonna be kosher for long, move down. It's not as bad as coreless shouting bastards with 40 people around to listen. But people can see that they're fighting and hear what Damon says. This is just like, guys, have your arguments in private. Yeah, it's your old Sansa and John, I beg you. I beg you. I beg you. I have one conversation. Thank you. Damon Diamond switching to the common tongue really reminded me of when Eric or Adam Legolas are talking and then Eric and goes, then I will die with them. Yes. In English. I love that. All people around them are like, what? As they went out, he'll die with him. On this year, more than this Reneira front, our listener Maria wrote in to say, this is exactly the line that Lane says to Damon, Diamond and Pentos during his depression era. That's right. You are more than this, Damon. The man I married was more than this. Damon obviously could benefit from learning how to deliver his feedback better. But I came out of this episode thinking that Damon is emerging as the only team black player who can pull Reneira off the cliff. Reneira's main -- I don't know if that's true, but that's an interesting take. Reneira's main struggle is internal. She's overwhelmed by grief and paranoia, making her decisions erratic and short-sighted. Damon being a chaos agent is extremely comfortable during hard times and manages to focus on real external threats to her rule. I don't know that I fully agree, but he can speak to her in a way that other people can't. I think when Allison makes the observation about Damon and Reneira, she makes the Messiah, it is strategic and it serves Allison to that moment, but it is also true. It is also true that we were made to burn together a marriage proposal from season one. There is something they share that is distinct. Every -- we talked about this since literally the first episode of the show. Every time they switch into a hivalarian and have these conversations with each other, it does cement the fact that they are in a world of their own making that other people are not a part of. I think this is -- and the fact that they disagree and bicker so often. I mean, Reneira is saying, you know, here you stand out done. That's like real. I'm going to upset and angry and so I'm going to say something that that I know will hurt you in the cube field. - Seen from America. - Seen from America. - Stuffed very relatable content here. But, very relatable content. - Seen from America. - See some marriages, like such, so early in our-- - It was like one of the first things we had a full of plots we ever did, you know what? Sometimes just from the word go. - Yeah. - You know you're in game. - You know this magic. (laughing) - But I, you know, the fact that they disagree that they have had many periods of real strife in turmoil, the fact that in this episode there's so much tension. All of that, we have enough reasons to believe they'll still work their way back to each other. - Yeah. - This is why the rena element is so huge right now. - Yeah. - If Renera learns about that, does it fracture something in a way that even leads to? Can't work their way back from? That has to be on our minds at this point in the story. Renera is in this cocoon, not only of high valerian, but of doom. - A cocoon, doom. - A cocoon. - A cocoon. (laughing) - It's not the gen, it's like a cocoon in a man. Not too late to put that in the Doomsday advertising. - Oh, that's a cocoon. - I guess it probably has to be one of the X-Men, based on how X-Men centric the trailer was, right? - I got, you know who I got most excited to see in the Doomsday trailer, tell me. - I don't shun Qi. - Oh yeah, me too. - I was just like, yeah. - It's been so long. - I know. - So long. - Yeah. - As I texted you. - It's been so long. - Heart palpitations when the countdown clock popped up at the end of the trailer and it said four months. It was like, I know it's 27 days or something, but four months, ask you how. - I guess, on the one hand, yes on the other hand, like, I feel like there's way less prep we have to do for Avengers 2. - It's less that and more just, I feel my life melting away and I'm struggling. - Oh. - That's my doomsday cocoon. (laughing) I feel my life melting away. - This one's been a real doom cocoon, if you think about it. - It really adds, something's throws against me, something crouched, something formless, I feel the dread of it. Renera and this scene, us to each other many times in recent days as we try to remain afloat. - So, we talked about this with Chris on Sunday, but this is a great beat for Renera, the look on Emma's face. Renera is right. Damon's like, you hear the wind, you think it's an omen. Renera is right. This will soon be revealed to them, the omen plot. Something very real has worked its way into the seat of power. - Yeah. - Renera thinks that she has claimed, right? Omen is there inside of the city with this plot. The gold cloaks are about to be at the feast for traders, et cetera, okay. But, even though Renera is right, and that means that the paranoia is not unfounded, but it is still this question of when does the paranoia sprawl and grow and morph into something that cannot be contained for Renera. Emma Darcy has been talking about this every week on the inside of the episodes at the end, the obsession with legitimacy and the creeping paranoia. The trust is so thin for team black. There are, as we tracked with, we're wild, I'm sorry, I'm Damon, secrets mounting. Any one thing right now feels like a tip. - This is when you lean on Seb with the fray. (laughs) - This is when you make bonds that last a Seb with the fray. - Something I think that. - Oh, oh, oh, the white one. - Oh, yes, this is always like this. I'm gonna work on my impressions for both of them. - Like a bag, do you have something more? (laughs) - Great bottom. - Feast for traders. - This is sick. - This is fantastic. - This looked amazing. - I loved this. - I'm just gonna say that I'm sad that hotloot her large gent is already dead. - And I'm sorry for you. - But if you had a schedule, we won't say that the context for the heterocromia hot guy is alive. - Feeling good about that. - So, you know? - When God closes the door, he opens a window. - And if the gods of chosen this podcast, who would dare stand in our path on the gods in the show for an heterocromia hi-tower guy? Is that character of a name? - heterocromia hi-tower guy. Pigeon daddy. - Pigeon daddy. - Yes, the price of our humiliation, we should have burned them when we had the chance when he presents the coin. And then Damon finds a feast for traders. - Do you agree with me that the score sounded very wins a wintry that organ on it? - I, yeah, I think so. I don't have the ear for that that you do. - No, I don't have the ear for that. But I think I will just say the score, I was like something crazy is about to happen. That's what it made me feel. - There was also elsewhere in the episode when Alice is creedling Eamon and Humming, and then we cut into following Orwells. - Oh yeah, he is too, Humming. And that's very winsy. A lot of gold cloaks are dead, so that's tough. So I don't wanna say too much here, but we will just say there's a similar tableau in the books. Very different context. You think that means we're not getting that? I don't know, okay. - I don't want to, I don't want to presume. We could, can I read this? - Please putt. - Elsewhere, his scouts came across a ghastly tableau where armored corpses sat beneath the trees in rotting raiment in a grotesque mockery of a feast. That's a cool idea, we're gonna do it somewhere else. - In the concept art for this? - Yeah. - It's a feast for traders with the compliments of King Darren was part of the original idea they had for the scene. And then I guess they were like, that's a lot of fake blood to put on the wall, I'm tired. Just keep it snappy, about a bell broken, say it once. You don't have to repeat it, you know? - Come on, Marya. - Yeah. - Great stuff. Anything else before we get to the book's spoilers show? - I think we did it. If you don't wanna hear the book's spoilers, this is where we leave you and we will see you on Sunday night for Talk to Thrones on episode six. - Okay. The butcher's ball set up is pretty great. Here it comes, it has to be next week. - There's like three episodes left of the season. I would be astonished. - This felt like the Kristen dies next week episode, right? - In the BTS, they called his seven centric speech the final prayer for these boys. So how quickly into next week's episode does he die? - I feel like it will be the closing set piece of the episode. - Okay. - That will build, 'cause there's still gotta be more marching. I don't know, even I was like, oh, did they sub in the backdrop and play, like are they gonna do any of the archers from the woods still as he tries to mount this final fight? Or do we have any more build-up? Or is it just that? - Like do we know any archers? I guess it doesn't matter. (laughs) I guess it doesn't matter. - I just, I just, those rubbermen are out there waiting. - I just miss all the various people on the Riverland team. I know. - We could have had Bill and he been here. - Just saying. - This is what our listener Andy wrote. Is there Kristen Colton Nate Jacobs of House of the Dragon? He doesn't have a ton to do in season three, except die, I guess. And it's like, in season one, this guy was the absolute worst piece of diabolical shit ever put on screen. Never forget. So, you know. - It's, he's just wandering around waiting to die. It feels a little protracted. - I agree. - You know, it has to be next week. I almost think it should have been done earlier. - I think so too. At the beginning of the season, when we were breaking down the trailers, I think at certain points, we both thought maybe Butcher's ball could even be episode seven, a penultimate heading into Tumbleton. And one in Kristen around a little longer. While I have loved the Kristen and Goen scenes, there has been a saminess to them undeniably. - I was relieved for Freddie Fox that he gets to now depart on to his next plot line. - Yeah. But yes, and they will sing songs about it. It was like, okay, but it's happening. It's happening. We're getting Butcher's ball next week, great stuff. I also like killing him. So is it? - I think it's Roddy. - Roddy's gonna kill him with the axe. - Yeah, loose my wolves and me on the hunt and we will bring him down. - I have going to die for the drive. - They want to prime us inside this episode for that character specifically. Like remind us that character's in the show basically before he kills Kristen. - Okay. - But here's the question now that the moment has actually come. We're on the brink of this. We got excited for like, okay, they didn't do honeymoon. Oh God. We didn't see If Butcher's ball is a bigger deal, it will be worth it. How, how to thread the needle between making Butcher's ball a bigger deal, but still giving Kristen the, no songs about how brave you died. - That's a great question. - I'm like a little unsure how to pull that off. - If there are skirmishes leading up to it in some degree, I don't know. - Yeah. - I actually don't know. - Yeah. - I guess I'm also a little worried because like these moments in fire and blood that like hinge on like one great line. Like George didn't have to write a whole scene. He just wrote one great line. - Yeah. - It's like our cloaks are gold no matter how you turn them. And then it's just sort of like, and then they almost feel like they can't use the line. - You know what I mean? - Yeah. - If we got songs in this episode because we're not getting the iconic line next week, I will actually be devastated. You will have to hold me and cradle me. - We're very lucky we got, we've come to die for the dragon queen, but like I think there have been a number like, blood and cheese, there was so much like blood and cheese, blood and cheese, and it just like did not land the way that we wanted it to go. It also like didn't quite, you know what I mean? These big sort of like someone's gonna die moments aren't hitting the same that they did on thrones, and it's like almost all the other stuff that's really sort of like doing it for you, right? And I worry that they're gonna feel that they have to, that the magic of that book moment of Christian, you didn't get the glory at the end, like won't feel like cinema enough as a team moment, even though it's such an incredible character and so good. - Because Butchers Ball, the massacre of Butchers Ball, it's after they killed Kristen. - And then they killed her. - And then everyone else dies. - Are they gonna kill Kristen? - But by the way, there's only like five guys left. - Yeah, and also like you said, like we don't know, we barely know anyone else. - No, we don't know them. - Yeah, there's like the one other guy who like has been in a couple of scenes with Kristen there. - Spirit and the ball, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Not gonna really care if he dies. - I don't know him. - Gwayne's gone, like I thought Butchers Ball was gonna be Gwayne and Kristen, and I was gonna be like pretty invested. But with Gwayne gone, I'm like, a little less. That said, more excited than ever. We both loved the email we got last week about just going sub into the Caldrops plot. Dude, they had Gwayne and his army walked through a field of Caldrops. Like, I feel like he's now gonna be like, "Oh, you know what we should call our Band of Conspirators?" - Caldrops. That goes easily, like he's like, you know, back in season three. - When I was a horse with Kristen Cole. - A horse. - A horse. - I think I told you that I saw an interview where the cast was asked to give three words of advice. - Maybe you told me that I was like, it's a window, right? - Close that window. Both Freddie and Fabian, they were in the same interview together. We're like, stay on that horse. (laughing) But like, what choice did they have to stay on that horse? The horse was like clasp from underneath them. But yeah, then they have to touch through the bog. But I think it has to be related to this horse moment. - Agreed. - Okay. - I was wondering too, on the continuing to track theories from last week, 'cause the books were actually last week. It's so many great theories in it. You introduced the idea of Darren potentially poisoning ormens, 'cause we got the email about Mormons, Pomender. - Pomender. - And you introduced the Darren possibility. Very enticing. What about going away? - What about together? - What if going spares Darren from having to do that and does it? - I'm really excited to see going and Darren together. What is that dynamic going to be like? - Can't wait. - Speaking of interesting dynamics, here's another version of my Butchers Ball question that I just asked you. On the Aiman and Egg on front, I'm gonna loss here. How is the show gonna pay off their mutual obsession with each other given that they don't, their plotlines are not bringing them back to each other. - They'll never see each other again. And certainly not decisively. Are they gonna introduce kind of a, oh, we didn't know that we're near an Allison shared these moments version of that for them. That one, I feel like it's all gonna, and maybe in this episode of Egg on, it's like go ahead higher the ship. So like maybe it's already over for Egg on. His like, I gotta find Aiman. - Yeah. - Okay, that doesn't feel like so satisfying to me, but I don't know. - I mean, they both have iconic like final stretches of stories, but I don't want anything to change about God's Eye with Aiman and Allison Damon, which one of them is dressing up as a nun to see the other? (laughing) - It's Aiman. (laughing) - Oh my God. - Maybe they'll have a dream combo. And only it can be there. - I feel like that's actually the answer. - Okay. - That actually is probably what's gonna happen. - All the kids are gonna hang on a dream. - Maybe 'cause it feels like there's gonna be a little bit more progress for Aiman than for Egg on. - Yeah. - So maybe Aiman does get to commune with Egg on in the dream in a way that allows him to move forward. - Really? - Yeah. - And Egg on doesn't get that, and that's part of why he is like, I'm gonna jump off my maimed dragon and shatter my body further. - We got a really interesting email from a listener who said they think they're trying to make Egg on look like a dragon, like with the way his burn to make up is looking, that he's like, you know, because like Sunfire and Egg on and their sort of maimedness is supposed to be like an interesting thing. I don't know. - Yeah. - What do you think Helena's going out that window? - Well, and also, what role does the bug stuff play? - I know the poison bug stuff. - Yeah. I mean, they can't, they've given us too much window set up now to change the window outcome. - Maybe. But like-- - What do you think they're just like, we're giving you no window setting up? - Yeah, we're giving you the window now, so we don't, because we're not gonna give the window to you later. - Does Helena use the poison? - I just don't think she would kill herself. Because if she's like, I always thought that until George's blog post. - Oh. - That was the first time that I was like, - You think that's what he thinks? That's the issue? - I don't wanna like, I don't want this to be a poke or fall in for me to misremember the spot. - Wait, I feel like he was in that blog post was kinda like, if they don't have mail or, and the bitter bridge death and all these extra sources of grief, why would Helena kill herself? - Oh. - Maybe that's not right. - But I feel like he heavily implied that it was, in fact, suicide. But maybe he just meant, first of all, maybe he didn't write that, and I don't remember. - But maybe he just meant frankly enough to keep that possibility plausibly alive in the story as one of the sources of narrative and story that someone could say. - All right, so in the post, you were right. George says, "In Ryan's outline for season three, Helena still kills herself for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror or no triggering event overwhelmed the fragile young queen." But like, because bitter bridge is missing. But I just, I mean, like, I don't know how, when or how or why if the outline has changed since then, but I feel like there's enough fresh horror. - No question. - In this season for like, Helena to kill herself, the thing that I wonder about is like, I don't think she would kill herself with the baby still inside of her because of her whole, like, no living creature will be harmed sort of thing. But I feel like if something were to happen to the baby, if she miscarries or, you know, whatever, I could see her killing herself in that instance. - If something happens to Jehara, which would be a timeline, a major timeline tweak, given that-- - I just don't think a pregnant Helena is killing herself. - I agree. - And I could be wrong. But like, it will need some greater explanation for me too. - Well, yes, I'm with you. Will there be like a poisoning that leads to some altered state? - Well, like a herfragile. Her mind is quite on the verge. - Will a dream, you know, 'cause I, so there is the, on the, and this was not, I think we talked about this a lot at the end of season two, the most perfectly executed examination of like destiny and free will. But what Helena said to Eman about it, wouldn't change a thing. We talked about the possibility at the time of her, if I remember correctly, of like, well, what does Helena see in about her own future? And maybe they'll like, and we talked in this season, but I don't want to be in this room. Has Helena seen her own death? And, you know, when we talk about these themes, like, I'm always like, break through, push, but in thrones for sure, one of George's, you know, main areas of interest is, self-fulfilling prophecies and maybe, leading to an outcome that you sought to avoid. I don't know, we have enough time for that to feel like it totally lands if something like that happens here, only three episodes left in the season, and that Olivia cook quotes certainly makes it seem like, Helena's death is this season. So does that George's blood post? So, finale, is it finale? I wonder if Butcher's ball is next week, Helena is episode seven and Tumbleton is the finale, like a big, big thing, yeah, every time. But I don't know. I mean, there's a lot that has to happen still. I don't want, I'm really, I'm so attached to Helena, I'm like really dreading this, it's gonna be devastating. I guess there's also, they could use the, the butterfly hoisted stuff, like on someone else, to try to escape again. Maybe that's in the mix. Can someone get that to go in to use on Ormond? Is there time for that? In the commentator. Crush up those, those, I don't know. Nice. Then one, the main thing that I wanted to make sure that I was in here, you already had, which is bail of vibing with Adam, when like, wrong, wrong, wrong brother. Wrong brother. But like, bail and Alan end up together. Bail and Alan end up together, but wrong uncle. We should say, do you think this would cause friction between Adam and Alan? Cannotically, no friction between Adam and Alan, beloved brothers, loyal to each other, to the bitter end. But like, maybe, Adam seems like he has a saucepot for bail. For sure, you know, and I don't know what that means with Alan, you know? Maybe there's a real spark here and then after Adam's death, their mutual mourning brings bail on and Alan together. Oh. 'Cause there's like, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. There's also like, you know, with bail and this falls into the larger thing we've been asking of. Like, how much time is there at the end of this series for ThingX, ThingX being like, literally everything after? Mm-hmm, we're nearer on Agonor killed. Yeah. Among those, this is like how the, the business of the realm is unfolding. There's a lot of, who are we going to marry Rainan Baila off to, right? And Baila, and there's the spirit of rebellion and Alan, just like, we're going to do what we want. Yeah. So I don't know. I think there could still be room for a real mutual attraction between Baila and Adam in the short term and then something developing later with-- I'll be married off slightly enough to some ancient self-regarding Lorde and Pike with enough ported gold to pay Rainera's debt. Well, you know, the Greyjoys are going to be on that list of what if we married you to Family X? So there you go. Let's see. God's I set up with Rainera wanting Damon to find Vagar and Damon's. Like, I'll do that later. I felt like that was a nice season. For season three, that's pretty good. What else? Shepard. Oh yeah, okay, so our listener wrote in with a cat theory. Only cats. Freak wrote. Once again, you have my attention. Who has a better story than cat a tumble toe? Oh, I thought you meant cat like the cats in the red keep. Bad cat. The shepherds just five cats stacked. You really, I was really like excited to share the email. I can't see the church go through. And I think he's missing an arm but his cat just pulled the paw back because it's a cat. But no, you mean, he was like, hey, A.T. I'm less interested in, but I'll allow I go on. A assuming that he survives tumble two. Who among the common folk would have more reason to hate dragons than Reneira specifically? She's been around for a couple seasons, I guess. And while she's familiar, there's nothing that is obviously leading to this change at this point, but it doesn't take too many steps to get her there. The war has already taken her only child. The rest of her family will likely all be dead due to the war in general and probably directly by dragon fire. If she survives, she would easily end up disfigured and it keeps with the theme of the show that contributors to fire and blood keep giving men credit for things that women do. Interesting. I think this would be over indexing on our investment and our perceived investment in cat, but not in cats. If it's cats of the sea, we're listening. God, great stuff. This is what I needed this week, really was. Anything else? I think your note here about the cat's pock dagger of making out of the god's eye, this might not make it out of the bedroom, it was really funny. God, I think that's it for bookseller look ahead stuff. Fantastic. We're more than halfway through the season. I'm upset. Only three episodes left and then only eight episodes left next season. There's a lot of story, left. I'm but out of the seven kingdom many seasons to come. I will take 13, 14, 17, however many they want to do. Okay, great. I'll take them all. All right, thank you to the bad babies and thank you to our queen's card. Carlos, Scott, Jacob, Juno, Jomi. Is anyone else here today? I ran right past the control. Thank you to the whole squad. Everyone's the best. Please join us in San Diego. If you will be there, come to Whiskey girl. Whiskey girl on Thursday night from the meetup. No, pass needed. Come to our panel with the midnight boys, Pew, Pew, Saturday morning, past required. We'd love to see you there. And then we'll see you on Sunday night when we are back in Los Angeles. Oh yeah. On episode six of House of the Dragon. And the plan right now, by the way, is for us to go live for the talk of thrones finale. That's right. That's in a couple weeks, but just sort of mark your calendars. Get in there. Yeah. Fire questions in the YouTube chat. Yeah. Share some thoughts on whatever hat CR has worn. I will not be wearing a hat. Never again. I thought you would spend that. Never again. All right. Thank you. Bye.