‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Hello, and welcome to Talk The Thrones. We're here to break down the fourth episode of the third season of House of the Dragon. I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me is Van Lathen, and is she a queen, or is she a bitch with a dragon? It's Mallory Rubin! - Tough. - We're going to get into that right after this. We are thrilled to share that the Ring of Earth theme of the Midnight Boys Pew Pew. And the House of R will be returning to San Diego Comic Con this July. We're kicking off on Thursday, July 23rd at Whiskey Girl for a Ring of Earth fan meetup. No badge required. We'll be there for an hour or so starting around 6.30, so come say hi, grab a drink, celebrate with us. And then, on Saturday, July 25th at 10.30 a.m., come to our panel. Comic-Con badge holders can find the Midnight Boys Pew Pew. - And the House of R, correct. - In Room 5AB on the upper level of the convention center for a Ring of Earth Supergroup panel. We're going to be discussing the franchises that have dominated Nerculture this year and taken stock of what's to come. So, whether you're a local to San Diego or in town for Comic Con, we'd love to see you at Whiskey Girl on Thursday. Or if you're a bad shoulder, join us on Saturday, July 25th for our panel. See you in San Diego! - All right, our pal, Christopher Ryan is not here today, but joining us as a very special guest, it's Van Lathen. How are you doing, Van? I'm great. This lets me know that I am what I always wanted to be. It's the black CR. - I don't know. I don't know. I'm the one with the A's hat on. You got a Dodgers hat on. I've never seen CR on a Dodgers hat. - He never would. He never would do that. - He never would. So, you can listen to Van on Midnight Boys. - Super! - High-learning, tailgate, tailgate, and many other shows. - Whatever you guys want. - Malar Rubin. - Oh, wow. - Incredible host of House of R. Queen of the Deep Dive herself. - Incredible person. That's nice. - Yeah. And I'm also on House of R. I mean, I think we're going to probably open House of R this week saying let us become rates with fears our standards. So tuning for that, can't wait. - We're the scorpions of podcasts, it's true. I'm here doing my very best, Christopher Ryan impression, just for a little bit, then you won't have to deal with the hat anymore. - I think the hat is really working. - Thank you so much for that. - I think it looks great. - It looks fucking great. And all that stuff, it looks good. - Yeah, and everyone's like, Joanna, she's sporty. - Sports show. - Yeah, sports show. - So here's my, it's as good as my map making skills. Here's my impression of a Chris Ryan recap. Hot on the heels of Damon's Dragon Writer Supremacy monologue, in this midway point of the season, several House of the Dragon characters are asking themselves, how do you dance without a dragon? - Renera's Dragon Army is relegated a babysitting tumble tin, and with the castle-sized vegar mysteriously missing, members of Team Green, like Kristen Cole and Orman Hightower, are forced to contemplate a dragon list or mostly dragon lists way forward. Aegon 2, despite trying to Valerian Raky heal his dragon Sunfire back into action, is finding out it's not all breakfast sandwiches and puppet shows when an Aegon Targaryen goes undercover for an internship among the common folk. You know who does have a dragon? Renera. Renera has a dragon, and now Damon knows it too. Continuing his tradition of gleefully killing folks who are simply trying to enjoy the fresh air in the veil, Damon offers up an innocent shepherd's head, cooked Pittsburgh style to his wife Renera. The queen seems duped for now, but her mistress of whispers, not so much. Speaking of Miss Aria, she's taking the lead of Renera's team of rivals, which includes a massive promotion for NEPO Baby Allen of Hall, a come-up for the ever scrappy grandmaster or a while, and welcome to the opening tapestry newly minted master of coin, Torin Manderley. It's too sin. It's too sin. Tapestry standard for the tapestry of history, what on earth? Immediate tapestry star. Over in Tomlton, we witnessed first-hand why the third amendment exists. That's the one about quartering soldiers, which I definitely didn't have to Google. Don't worry about it. Or in high tower like me is just reading email after email with increasing exasperation, while we finally officially meet Prince Darren, who was less excited by the side of his uncle's bare ass than a Targaryen usually is. And in a turn more heartbreaking than watching the U.S. lose to Belgium, we watched Goodboy Darren. Sports Joe. We watched Goodboy Darren lose some of his innocence as he plunges of Larian steel sword into Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law. Rapid fire roundup. Wow. Alice Rivers has traded in her aprons for Simon Strong's left over purple velvets and golden jewelry, and is possibly hiding a Targaryen heir. Speaking of hiding a Targaryen heir, Helena appears to be secretly prego. Yes. Wild. Yeah. Boris Baratheon has made himself scarce while Lord Coralus Lorraine is off hunting pirates. Alan's a cat guy, Jane Aaron's a dog mom, and Gwayne High Tower, off-white, the populace of Tumbleton, the Banksy of Kings landing, and Lord and Ladyfoot Lee's favorite table are straight up not having a good time. So to paraphrase Thadden King, Sir Arthur Dane, and Orman High Tower, now we may begin. Wow. And that's incredible. This is the R.E. Cat. That was phenomenal. That was unbelievable. That was great. All right. Let's start as we always do. Van Leith, what was your favorite part of the episode? Damon's daughter Conundrum. Raina. Raina at the end. For a lot of reasons, number one, it's kind of tying a thread that he just know he left his entire family and they would kind of spray it to the wind and stuff. But he, I love stuff where people are asked to be a dad. Yeah. They're asked to be a father. They're asked to kind of slip back into that role. And I thought that he would react, his character would react like in a different way. I did not think that he would care. Okay. I did not think at all because the character in some way to be that dangerous as he is, he has to be cynical. And he has to be like, this makes sense. This makes sense. And that's who he's been in this entire season. You have to kill this person. You have to do this. It doesn't matter how grotesque the task is. Yeah. Got to kill the kid. He's an heir to the throne. You're going to have to kill him. You have to kill auto like in front of you got to do all this stuff. But for some reason, there was still some humanity in him when it came to his daughter, then he undid it right away by killing an innocent to then like spend this entire yarn about like what's actually going on. So you see him both be a man and then be what he believes himself to be, which is a God that can take a life whenever he wants in like one scene and two scenes back to back. And it completely encapsulates what the character is. I love that read. I love Matt Smith's spate like Damon's face. Yeah. And I love to your point about him being a God. The fact that that shepherd is just sort of down the mountain and is so small and he's sort of like looking down on him. And it's just sort of like, oh, I can just kill that guy. No problem. I can because I'm a God. You know, at certain times in the show, they do a great job of making the Targaryens like actually look like dragons. And when you think about the fact that sheep stealer prays on sheep's and goats and things like that. When he looked down at him, he looked like prey. Well, he like he looked like something to be eaten and harvested for whatever Damon wanted. Call the goat drawing his awareness in the first place. He comes back over there and she goes, uh, what's what's I forget names a lot of times. What's the mistress of Miss Aria? Who's Aria? Yeah. Well, she did say last week she can sniff a lie. Like who's Aria? Helps you to extra drag and crispy when you're sniffing the lie, I guess, but she knew right away that Damon was full of shit. I'm really excited to talk about the Damon Reina stuff more. Very rich text. Miley Rubin, was your favorite part of the episode? Oh, God, hard to pick because this was another really good episode of House of the Dragon. What a run we're on. I think the bathtub etiquette is something I'm looking forward to discussing. All of the dragon bond moments, something I'm looking forward to discussing. But it's kind of a tie for me between these two things. The vintage Game of Thrones feel of just this many characters and this many locations. It's really rare in a House of the Dragon episode that we are in Kings Landing, Tubleton, the Vale, Rookstress, Heron, not those specific locations but like five distinct locations that all were actually central to something that happened in the plot. I think the other thing for me is the through line and theme of almost every character regardless of whether they think they're winning or know they're losing. Basically being a prisoner. Some of that is very literal, right? Like Helena and Alicent are being kept in a lovely room and occasional visits to the Godwood, but God's with their prisoners. Your girl, Tissarian and Chains. Tissarian literally chain in the sept can't wait to talk about the symbolism of that from Ormond Hightower's perspective. Not sure if you guys have heard a little character named Daenerys Targaryen ever mention that a dragon is not a slave, has that come up in Game of Thrones before? Old fin of fashion. Renera just says to him, you're not left to leave anymore. You can't go to taverns. You can't leave except for your body belongs, but you can't leave except to go on duty for me. Kristen imprisoned by his increasingly confounding sense of purpose and honor. Raina by her exile, Damon now by the choice. He's made on and on and on the list goes. And of course, Darren I think is a really new important character in the story, maybe most interestingly of all. We've spent a lot of time in the show, including in this episode hearing Alicent talk about the idea of how glad she is. is that Darren was spared being raised at the court. And we look at this now clearly through these amazing Orman Darren scenes in this episode. This is just a prison of a different sort, the prison of being Orman High Towers word. So it's a great Darren Orman episode. I'm so excited to talk about them. Or just in general, really rich thematic text to link these characters. There's a lot of parallels across this, you know, the ordained mission emerging for Orman. When we've talked about that so much with Ranera, it's just it's it's very rich text. I'm about you, Joe. What's your what's your highlight? For me, it's definitely Darren and Orman. I think it's really difficult on a show in a third season to introduce characters and get us to care about them so much right away. And like as compelled as I am by Orman and I'm great because James Orman is a fantastic actor. I am like kind of all in on Darren Targaryen. Like he just got here and I kind of care more about him than almost anyone else on the show. And I don't I don't know if it's just like the performance from this kid Benjamin Evan Ainsworth who I saw as an even smaller kid and blind man or he's like uncanny good. And as you and I were discovering he's going to be like in the legends of Zelda movie. Like this kid's about to be famous. Yeah, this kid's on the come up. But he is like he is like incredibly good in this episode. And there's like a lot of moments of just like of looks of flinches of just like all these moments that tell a huge story. His eyes are very compelling. And I just I'm like I'm just like all in on him and his innocence and what is at risk here for him. And and I really needed that like even deeper emotional investment inside of House The Dragon. I also think this is once again a really funny episode. I think they're doing a really good job of like sprinkling humor in all of the locations. So you're never like here we go. We're back here. It's like Alice River's being like, oh, you didn't know that we're near at Toking's landing. Touring Man really really fun on the small council. You know, they're they've just like like do pops of humor sort of everywhere, which is the classic. Crones. You love to see it. And then I wanted to because Sierra is not here in his absence. Shout out the writer of this episode who's David Hancock, who is Sierra's favorite writer from last season. He wrote on the crown previously, but he wrote on season two episode three, Bernie Mill, season two episode seven, red sewing and something that CR really highlighted when we talked about this last season was like an elevation of language. There were just certain words like, oh, you're going to go carp, you know, or like paint a rundell on his chest instead of target. You know, there's just like a little like tweak of of words here and there that really feel like you need to lean in and catch every word, which I really liked. That made me think of Grogo because that was a big piece of armor that he wrote. Yeah, you know, to to the Darren point, something happened in his episode. I talked a little bit about this. I'm probably will talk a little bit about this on the midnight boys. I will happen to you. Is we also watched him take his Game of Thrones communion like in the show. Yeah, we watched him like Game of Thrones starts with brand having to watch net kill someone, right? And then we go through all of these characters with them getting to that point, them like becoming a part of this world and is normally by the sword. Like we even watched that for like a renier earlier in this season. Yep, she had to take that life and she didn't want to do it. She wanted to kill him and he looked at and he goes, hey, it's like you know, everybody's watching. Yeah, if you don't do this, you're not really a part of this thing. Like to be nobility in this world, you have to set yourself apart from the people that have to die in order for you to rule. Yeah. And like that scene where he has to do that, I'm like, oh, we're cooking with the same Thrones recipe that we've been cooking with and watching him lose his innocence right there was really meaningful for the character and for the show. I got really emotional. I was like incredibly all in on this kid. Yeah. So I feel very invested that baptism by blood. Yeah, point is like something we've been talking about a lot and it's fascinating to track when that is an act of agency on a character's behalf or something like in this case that feels like a real loss, a real source of corruption and tragedy, something that like clearly Darren did not want to do the quivering, the shaking, enhanced further by the fact that Deserian who has chained there in the in the in the septent tumulten clearly despises Ormond Hightower. We're worrying moving towards like the second he walks in. We don't know how it's manifested, but it is clear that Ormond has been abusing Darren, whether literally physically or not, but they're, you know, when when Darren's like get out to that other serving boy in the room right before Ormond loses his shit on the table, it's just sort of like he knows about Ormond's temper. He knows it could be taken out on people. Has it ever physically been taken out of him? I'm not sure, but the way in which Deserian like reacts when Ormond goes to touch Darren makes me just like really sad but devastated. And especially in an episode that across multiple character sets, Agon seeing Sunfire, Reina saying, "I will not leave Sheep Stealer, who's a part of me." This was an episode that went out of its way and like why I love just a dragon stand and superfan to reinforce the bond between writer and dragon. So the fact that that Deserian responds that way to Ormond tells us something about not only what Deserian has observed and feels, but what Darren feels about Ormond, which to your point about the facial expressions and expressions and how compelling the performance is, we can tell in a number of respects, I loved what that told us about their dynamic and relationship and what what Darren has clearly witnessed and had to suffer through, but also just more generally outside of even the Ormond relationship, Darren's power of observation. The fact that Darren is paying attention, absorbing. You know, we have all of these moments with him and now looking back realizing who he is, you know, standing with his hands kind of behind his back, posture. You know, I've been recently reading books about cults. This is an incredible sentence. When you read a book about a cult, you start to realize everything is a cult. Almost everything is a cult. Like, Do you think you'd be a good cult leader? I would be amazing. I agree. The book has actually stirred up some things. But when I watched this episode through that lens, I watched Ormond try to make Darren a member of the high-tower cult of him trying to like everything. Hey, he naturally, he's a Targaryen, so he naturally wants to have like cool fun times with his dragon. No, no, no, no, no. Don't like rub that beast. Don't fall in love with that beast. Like all of that. He didn't give him what you have to give somebody that's in the cult. The first part of the brainwashing is that we are better than everyone else. That's the first part of the cult. Like, we live a life that's either going to like be rewarded by God or here on this earthly plane, we're better than everyone else. And you have to believe that. And that's what he's giving them. He's saying, hey, the Targaryens rule this place because they have these big WMDs. But really, it is, look at the color of your hair. Look at me. Really, it is us who are fit to rule and who are the best. And watching him try to bring him into that because I've been into the cult was just fascinating to me. And to do it inside of, as you as you mentioned, the sect, you know, we're, we've got, when to start and like knocks over all the candles on on the altar there, I thought that was incredible. But like to cloak it inside of the language of purity of of of like we are what's right, but we are what's pure and we are what is innocent and we are and like the Targaryens are a savage race and they are disgusting. And this is a half of you. Part of you is Targaryen. But I love the point. I love that they've made Darren a redhead. Like, I love that. I love that he has red hair because it's just sort of like he doesn't look like a Targaryen. Are you guys sure he has red? I wanted to ask you to make him look more like a high tower because she says, and we never know when the goddamn Targaryen she's going to kick in by the way, just let you guys know. It's very picky with that shit. She says that she wanted him to be a high tower, right? In her last, and when I first saw him, I thought, oh, they're dying his hair. It was interesting because they died. The other boy's hair blonde and they died his hair, reddish brown or whatever. But now I'm not sure. And I was wondering, I want to ask you all that. I think that's I think it's supposed to be his hair. You think it's a die job. I'm at least keeping, I'm remaining open to the possibility that it's a die job with two purposes. One, just to have gone through this fake Darren gambit in the first place and mask his identity there for a little while. Because the more it's like if he, if anyone has seen Darren at any point sending a silver haired kid in his place is like instant risk of discovery, you know, like if anyone had told Damon what color hair has. But it's it's why I think Allison immediately. Sure. But he might also be like he's too small. Yeah, it's a different, but I think the fact that to your point about just this like sense of you know, Ormond is in this episode and very sexist when he talks about Ranera right laughs talking about a woman on the throne. The targ racism is abundant from him, but more broadly in all respects this sense of to your point like the high, the high tower superiority. So the idea of like just making Darren cosplay as a high tower is at least interesting to me as a possibility. And I can I sprinkle in another popular theory, which is that of a series is not his dad. Like this is another question is like the timeline doesn't really work out as far as I can turn for when Allison was sleeping with other people. But that is, many people are asking, is it possible? Yeah. That Allison had Darren not with her Targaryen decrepit husband. But he's maybe to make sure a make sure my dog man. to make sure that he's not a Targaryen or, you know, for any other reason. - I don't know if the show is prepared to go-- - I don't know that it tracks for Alison's character. I felt like when she fucked Kristen, it was a real like, "My husband died and I'm in a party." - But I think just the fact that, like, I don't know if the show is ready to open up that question about like the Targaryen lineage and dragon riding if Darren doesn't actually have a Targaryen blood, and I think also just the fact that like, Ormond is really pressing on the taint in his blood as he calls it. - It's more interesting to me if he is actually of the Targaryen line and has to make a choice between these aspects of his identity. We have a great, you know, moment in our Throne's viewing past, something like John and Theon, you know, you don't have to choose. And it's like, well, maybe that's true for some characters in some moments and maybe it isn't. You know, could Theon have chosen to be a stark end of Greyjoy and embraced that totality? Sure, can Darren choose to be a high tower and a Targaryen? Maybe, maybe he has to choose one or the other. I think it's gonna be interesting to see if this corruption leads to Darren falling into the two-deligence school of Ormond high tower or if he pushes back and resists and rejects it. - Is there any character in the show that is truly by? And when I say that, I mean, by house. Is there a truly by house character? - I think Darren seems like our version of that, maybe. - Could be. - Unless he just rejects the high tower part of it. - Jalfrey was clearly, clearly a Lannister, right? - Right. - Oh yeah. - I'm trying to-- - Like what about like Balan, Reyna? That's a good one. - That's a good one. - That's a great one. - Those are the only ones I can really think of 'cause most of them choose an identity because even if they have a name, they choose an identity. - Yeah. - Like, so that's interesting. I don't know that we've ever, have we ever watched someone have to wrestle between two houses in this way in the history of the show? - Well, I like that Theon example, this idea that like Theon was like John learning the truth about his Targaryen history and having the stark aspect of that, which was always complicated. I think it's a, it's a focus of the show given what the name of your house and standing of your family kind of says about you and the business you're supposed to conduct in the realm. I think the Orman, I was curious to ask you guys about what your read is on Orman in the faith right now because, okay. Inside of this episode, he once again makes a pledge, slash swears of out of a fashion, that he does not for a second intend to keep. It's just theater. What he does with Kat's brother. He was brother in law, the Smith, who he has, Darren. Who doesn't have a name? - Kill at the end. I'm like, just call them brother in law. - But can I just say, I was sad watching him die. Because, sorry, not because they did a great job of establishing that character though, like, you know, he was no bullies defending his wife and his sister from a rapist, another rape on Game of Thrones. Thank you so much. But because of Darren, like I feel bad saying this, but like because it was such a tense moment for Darren and so I was so emotionally invested in this guy begging for his life because of what it meant for this kid going forward. You know, this guy's toast, like he's not making out of the episode, but like, what is the death of this innocent dude to Darren Targaryen? - Yeah. - Absolutely. I'm more broadly, and I know this is when you wanted to hit later today, like, this question of what it means to be a member of a community, the small folk, when the people who seek to rule and control you are, again, like on the prisoner's list, the inhabitants of Tumbleton, certainly very high on the list, right? They have to make room in their home for the soldiers. So Orman says, "Garach, you did this horrible thing, "I'm gonna gelled you, I'm gonna break your arm, "it's bullshit," right? Orman reveals to Darren at the end the truth and reveals that to us. Does he do both though? Like he gelled, doesn't he? - Does he, does that guy ask to get punished? - I don't know. I thought he did both, entirely possible, but the fact that he says to Darren in that set scene where he is trying to stifle and suppress Darren's literal dragon, but also the Targaryen aspect of his identity in the casing of the faith and high tower imagery. This guy hung not Egon's gold dragon on a green field royal standard for Team Green. He hung high tower banners in Tumbleton, the gall of that is astonishing. So my question's like, I'm not a star, that's why I'm in high tower being here. - And like the Bolton's take Winterfell and they hang the flayed man. - What is it? - But still, like he's there in theory on behalf of this. - I feel like the fact that Egon's banner is green in the first place is because of high tower brand name. - Absolutely, and that goes back to Alessons' mistakes and sins along the way. Autos pursued, all of it is very entwined with the high tower. I mean, I think Ormond is articulating it to a degree that we haven't quite heard. My purpose is to restore the rightful line. The gods have put you to divine purpose. Victory will be ours. It is the will of the gods. That doesn't mean Darren is the king of Team Green Targaryen. It means the high tower is ruling. So he's, he wants a red head on that, but he does. He bent the knee. - Last week had no intention of keeping the pledge. He does this thing where he pretends because he knows the villagers are watching that he's gonna care if they air and do things wrong. He's there to protect the people. He says to Darren, "That guy's an extension of you. We can't let them harm him." That's the soldier, Eric. So he's cloaking himself in faith. My question is, is he a true believer who does not identify his own hypocrisy or is the faith yet another bit of his cosplay? - No, I think he's using, he's like whatever I need to say in order to get closer to power, I will. And if it's cloaking myself in the faith, I will. If it's saying dragons are like an abomination, but also wielding this one like a blow towards, I will, you know, he wants to use vegar. Like it's not like he wasn't going to use, you know, vegar name and when he showed up. So it's like, it doesn't matter what he says. The only thing that matters is if he can smell delicious spices or incense and have his bath. - I don't know. - Well, he did something in the episode that was pretty priestly. He showed his dick to somebody who didn't want to see it. (laughing) - Okay, what happened? - The power of the bath was really something. - So like, you know, so like, I'm like, yeah, this guy's probably the priestly of some sort. Like it's so, look, but with the scene with the guy, once again, I know we have to move past this. I just want to say this, for Darren watching what he thought was a positive thing happening in this world. You see belief, you see his face, he's like, oh my god, he's a good guy. This can all be great. This is dope, this is amazing. And then what you have to do is snatch it away and go, we must kill, we must feast, we must fuck, we must rule. And so like, that's really important 'cause Game of Thrones, as a show, has to continuously do that to the audience. - Sure. - Has to continuously let the audience know, hey man, you're not going to get your happy ending, this is a fucked up world, you know. - It's strong, baby. - I want to ask you a little bit more Van about Orman Hightower, because I feel like, so what's so interesting about this story, and especially the way that this show is telling it, of a Targaryen Civil War, is the point the show is making is, there is no real bad guy. There are bad actors on both sides, and everyone is right and everyone is wrong in their own way, and that is what's so interesting and conflicting about the dance of dragons. Auto is horrible, but is he right that Damien is a piece of shit? Yeah, Damien is a piece of shit, but is he right that Viserys is a weak king? The show has been so invested in balancing the scales to a certain degree, I've been team black, but to a certain degree between the two teams, that we haven't had a pure uncut villain like Orman Hightower. I would argue so far on the show, and it is a thing that I feel like has kicked this closer to feeling like thrones to me than the show has so far. I like the murky morality of the Civil War, but I am relishing the Orman Hightower at all. So I was wondering then, I wanted to ask you, when you think of Orman Hightower, in the context of other villains on thrones, of the Lannisters, Tywin Cersei Jof, of Ramsey and Bruce Bolton, the high sparrow, dare I say you're in Greyjoy, like all these other villains, like how necessary is like a delicious villain? We can all agree to hate him kind of character on thrones, and where's this guy? I know it's early, but where's this guy? Rain-free. I think characters like that orient the world. They are the ones we, this is a world that's not oriented by the heroes. It's oriented by how bad things could be. And that lets you kind of connect to the noble people that are in this show, the pure heroes, the Johnson O's and the stuff like that, and also kind of understand like the Dany's and even the Damans. Like the people who are kind of more utilitarian in their villainy or she gets to her villainy at the end. I think he's very important. I think he's also very important for leveling out this. Like when you would listen to people talk about this, they had rare fire and blood. They'd be like, this show is too skewed to the black. And that's changing rapidly in this season. Rapidly as we see the strain that the rule puts on you, you start to see that maybe there wasn't any nobility that was existing in Team Black. There was just desperation. They were clinging on each other as family and all of that stuff because they had to. Now that they don't, Coralus is gone. Everybody's pissed off. No one's working together. - Now it's the wildest move for me. That the hand of the queen is just sort of like, without even like giving his notice, just like skips a small council meeting and is leaving. - Your children are vast. That reminded me of one of my family reunions where people get too drunk and they go, "You know them kids ain't for you. "Why we pretend? "Don't give 'em no more sweet potato pie." But Queen of Astor's Graffiti in the streets now. - So like when I look at him, it's very important that a guy like that exists to where we can litigate his actual morality. We can continuously ask the question, which we ask on Game of Thrones of villains, are they right? Is he right? And what he's saying, the Targaryens are ripping the world apart. Is he right? Would things not be better off? If they got in there at least they would be more functional and then we just get to sneer at someone It was hard to sneer at anybody in the show because everybody had a case to why they were doing what they were doing and now We back he showed his dick to people that they ask By the way confident confident. Yeah, I think about the scene with raw tidwell and Jerry McGuire We're raw tidwell pops out and he's like I like to air dry So you know that that guy's confident when he shows his piece to people something that James James Norton said before the season started because someone asked someone who had seen this episode asked him about the like bear Assin and his performance and he's like, you know I decided to go sort of like as kind of camp as possible in this performance I decided to go kind of big with it and I and he's like and those are the things they they kept Mallory, do you want to talk about Orman in relation to other villains in the show? Do you want to talk about his ass and really should other ass as we've seen on camera? I mean, I think I I think this has been like a very exciting thing to have this character in the show we've talked a lot over the last few weeks about the tywin comp in part because you know We've been getting emails from our listeners about it in part because Ryan condol the showrunner has been talking about how they were Excited to try to introduce a their this story's version of tywin into the story and some of that is about means and resources Some of it is about like the unknowable quality of operating the shadows I think this was an episode that showed us that that is like very true and very not true about Orman In a way that I find exciting It's actually not interesting and I think it would be very risky because tywin is I mean We had him at number one on our best fillings of the century so far podcast that we did I think just trying to basically copy and paste tywin You can't I mean the Charles the Charles dance performance is historic the characters and indelible so give us Some connective tissue to tywin, but with a twist the Taking the Valerian steel sword the Incessial art of house high tower vigilance and throwing a fucking temper tantrum trying to turn a very sturdy wood table By the way, really held up well in the face of Valerian steel into into cinders is fucking embarrassing right he's acting like a little kid Tywin it's in almost impossible to imagine tywin doing something similar I think the other thing is thinking about the relationships like what the level of respect You know, I always think of something like the the season two line about tywin which was the big line in the trailers Seven kingdoms united in fear of tywin lannister That's what we're meant wants, but that's not where he is so he's a striver He's not operating from the same position of assurance the tywin was and that's I think an important distinction in terms of how they behave The column that was undeniable in this episode is I'm gonna take the person who is is king or about to be king and teach them the way I want them to learn so he gives Darren lesson after lesson in this episode including a righteous king must demonstrate He upholds many virtues honor wisdom justice Or Darren is like what about mercy the most venom we've heard from Ormond yet was the snap of that sounds like something your father We say now we've been very critical of a seris, but I loved yeah the reminder that he was merciful I felt very defensive of the seris in that moment Seeing his dusty legas also I know it's best if I read but the but the Tom and the Tom and tywin what makes a good king seen in front of shot free spot He is it is it holiness as a justice as a strike. No, it's wisdom. That's sort of tywin because it was the wisdom to listen to him But also you could see that Tom and was like I'm learning something that's not the look on Darren's face in these scenes with one of them What I think is wild I want to remember but like what I think is wild is when we what I love in this episode is we hear Gwayne talk about or a minute me here Alice and talk about or you know, it's like we're seeing him and we're hearing the people who grew up around him talk about him as well, and so we're getting all of their we're getting this sort of like prismatic picture of him But for Alison to talk about him in the same terms. We've heard the seris mentioned, you know that he's a scholar as a student of history Yeah, you know, like all that's our stuff, but I'm just sort of like the viseris comp is really interesting to me Yeah, what did you want to did not from what we know from the past because you know Drowned a whole family and all that that stuff But just from what we saw on the show. Did you guys think of time and Lannister as particularly cruel? Yes to his own children. Yeah, I thought that was like the measuring stick is like how horrible he was to his own children I don't know why but I never did okay. I thought of him I would be consumed by maggots before I let you turn cast really rock into your warehouse Is maybe the most cruel thing any character said to another at any point in the show however though, however not making it up time and Lannister had some points He's he's he has been and like he blames Tyrion even in that though He blames Tyrion for the death of his wife, right and then he looks down But he was the ultimate pragmatist to me and he was pragmatic in times where he should have been fatherly And that's what made him bad to me what made him bad was that he didn't have a heart for anyone It was legitimately he had built the Lannisters back up and now he wasn't going to let anybody fuck with it Even if it was his own children and I think that is one of the things that is most closely associated with what I see from Orman right now They're both obsessed with legacy. Yeah, but the ty one was always invoking Corelis is like you see The Allison flagging the odor concern to Cool the moment what's gonna happen? I think I have a dragon like a hard-to-dragon Dragon shit tactical warfare my hope My my theory early because we had seen in the trailer him take that sword to the table Yeah, and so my theory is that they're gonna like hide bad smelling things in tumulten that he can't find to drive him crazy I don't think this was gonna happen. I think they're gonna have just like a dragon carpet bomb the the city was shit But I think it'd be really more like much more fun if they just like hid Smelly shit all over the city and and Orman's like where is it coming from coming from I want to talk about Alice. Let's do it. Your girl is driving the witch queen of hair and haul Appears to have had a bit of a glow up, right? She She always looks sensational, but she's like I swear to you. Yeah, there is no way The dress she's wearing did not come from Simon Strong's personal store of purple velvet like there she raided at the closet She's she's wearing gold and like queenly velvet now. That's great. She looks fantastic Is it because all of the other people there are gone now and it's just wrongs her dead? This is her stir all now. Yeah, but the question is and We've all read the book so we know the answer but but we don't talk about that sort of stuff here But like where is Amin and Vega where are Amin and Vega? How is Vega? One of the biggest like we hear this very episode jane Aaron said Hey, as you flew Caraxi's through the veil. I got rave enough to rave in everyone was talking about it Caraxi's a much smaller dragon than Vega. So why has no one has any fucking idea where Vega is? That's insane. Did Alice has Alice made him invisible. Oh, I love this You know what? Let's let's let's play out the string on this first Yeah That makes a fuck turn of since cuz I'm one that know I swear to god She walks out there and they're asking all of these questions like there's a gigantic dragon She's put some kind of hex over the castle. Well, the same one I mean Kristen and Gauin and their their soldiers have a very now familiar entrance to her and hall like walking through the cabin You always But their reaction to the sounds they were hearing including a goat yet again a goat wonderful No, I'll believe from goat the second before she appears. Yes. Well, this is I mean van further father for your theory Alice can shapeshift into a goat because we keep seeing goats and then we see Alice. She said she was a barn out line out of goat So I'm like to me she's like one of the more and I think the show is much better without Amin but I think It I don't disagree on how I think the show is much better without Amin Not because it's not a good character Just but because when you take him away You don't have to focus on him and the smaller things that kind of shape this way I really agree Yeah, I think the show is much better without him I think it'll be awesome to see how he fits when he comes back into it I don't think he's a white character. I just him and vegar being off the board They take away this kind of dread and now it becomes more the human show the missing dread is even more palpable and I think when vegar and Amin can just like Torch anything at any given time. It's less interesting than then like okay now Orman has to figure out how to make Tisari in his WMD you know like what do we do or even just Egon hearing not only that it's out there that he's dead But that the story is that Amin killed him and having to be like fuck one this guy is still hurting me and burning me even in its absence The the when they're walking them and they're hearing the sounds now we've heard creepy ghostly Heron Hall sounds every time we've been in her and all that's just like that's our press tax at this point But there was something that like it to me I was like is vegar about to appear because it sounded like I thought it was a sneak off The heft of a dragon hiding and I'm like maybe that's just a classic crumbling walls of Heron Hall was just behind a column perhaps invisible They got that's the way Well, what did you want to say about Alice? Oh no um it was interesting to see her as lady of the Entire manner yeah because It's they've done a lot of care to work with her and I was like these fucking guys are in danger. Yeah. Oh, yeah sure Yeah, like these guys are actually if she decides that if they if they don't stand down from wanting to find him and wanting to find Vegar if they don't like settle into and then of course Cole goes into his whole what a monologue by the way. Yeah goes goes into his his whole deal like it's like fucking killing Um, but I'm like These guys are actually in danger I thought halfway to she might fuck over to him at that point. That's something was going to happen Well, the thing that's interesting for us as viewers is like we actually have not gotten an update on Amon since we saw him Stabbed in the kidney and since he fell at Alice's feet and begged her to help him We actually we were like waiting for news. That's what I was saying like so we don't know from an adaptive point of view right? We're Amon and vegar the thing we knew is that she lied to them. Because she did not offer up that he had been injured. She just said, she's trying to so dissent. 'Cause she was here and then he left. She withholds the fact that he, the way Chris and Norman are both like, I can't believe that Amon would abandon us like this is really funny to me. - I know. I don't know what count on that. - Yeah, yeah, sure. Let's talk, Chris and Chris and was like, he wouldn't do this to me. Let's talk about Chris and Cole. So like Mallory pointed out really, I thought intelligently as always, in the first episode of the season that Chris and Cole was painting his house sigil, house Cole on his shield when they were in the camp. And Gwen's like, hey, should we take care of these rapists and Chris and's like, you do it. You take care of it. I'm busy with my arts and crafts, right? So house Cole. So he is like thinking a lot about where he came from. And Mallory, your interpretation was sort of like that he was embracing that identity to a certain degree. But I think it's really interesting in this scene that he's like, you know, we were at the whim of the Dondarians, like we were nothing. And if Reneer is on the throne, I'm nothing. There's nothing for me to go back to. House Cole is not a home for me to return to. So like this existential poet, Chris and Cole continues a pace. But like you love this mall. Like what do you guys think of this moment, Dan? What do you think? - So you know how Ulf, the episode before, she's giving out names and Ulf goes, - Sorry Dan, she goes, oh God. - Yeah, yeah. She's like absolutely incredible. - Absolutely not. She gives them a name, whatever. Ulf is a low born who never thought that they would be in a position to actually be in the business of the high born people. And now is trying to figure out how to use his utility to pay off for him and for his boys. - Yeah, incredible. - To get some drinks for his boys. - And like a little surprise. So you don't need to get into them. Something by Rosbury, don't worry about it. - When I look at Cole who has killed for so long for other people. - Kingmaker. - Like an absolute kingmaker. Someone that's killed so long for other people. I always wonder with a character like that, when do they go, you know what, fuck it, it's about me. It's about me now. Like how can I make this benefit me? - Yeah. - And when that character who you are expecting to be a cog in this will, both from a warfare standpoint, or a standpoint of honor, what a knight supposed to do. When they go off on their own, it's always destabilizing. It always becomes something that is unpredictable to people who need him to act in exactly the way they want him to act in order to achieve their goals. And so in that monologue, I was just watching him go, you know what, fuck it. I'm gonna do in this situation what I think needs to be done. - Yeah. - And I'm not gonna kind of be pulled on anymore. I'm gonna go do this because it's about me. - I think that's really interesting and I wanna think about that more, but I really like what you said about sort of destabilizing the soldier, the general, when you remove him. And I was thinking about what Cole and Gwayne are going through and Gwayne being like, this sucks, can we go? - This is what we need to do. - But like, it feels like a Vietnam War story. Like he's just out in the wilderness, away from sort of like the rules and regulations of the white cloak and everything that he was told. And he's like, Colonel Kurtz out in the jungle, losing his marbles. Having seen the horrors that he's seen of war at Rook's Rest. So he's got this PTSD from Rook's Rest. He's out here seeing charred bodies and horses as they're writing up to Heron Hall. So he's like, I'm really excited to do this without dragons 'cause dragons are horrible. But also I just like this idea of like this is, this is the regimented soldier out in the wilderness and what happens when you have to make your own rules and your own sort of construction. - Yeah, I feel like Kristen was a character across the timeline from the beginning of the show whose pursuit of ambition, van to your point was like, I move forward, right? I move forward into places I never thought I wouldn't have it. The king's guard, sworn shield, eventually handed the king. It astonished even him. I think that that happened, right? But he's still wearing that necklace. He sure is. The even courtless when he left, still had the hand in his hand. - So had to do it. - That was so true. - That was so true. He's got the hand in the king, armor is all in there, like what should be. - I felt like guilty that we told Chris we were done with the triarchy, clearly not. He's like, I'm gonna go clean up some triarchy remnants here. Chris will be thrilled. Kristen, you know, the white cloak, the idea of the righteous pursuit. Always putting stock and meeting and his forging his identity through these symbols. And so when he was painting the sigil of his own house and the way he talked about his family here, I feel like he has lost the ability to believe in the ideal, right? Dragon War took that away from him. That's what you're saying. All he has now is the ability to try to reconnect and reclaim the thing that he was distancing himself from, which is, I'm actually just a man. Now, if I were Gawain, I would say, didn't he tell me at the end of season two in the finale that to die would be kind of a relief? I don't know if I'm really up for what you're pitching. - Well, I think this is why Gawain sends a raven to tell us-- - Yeah, even though I was told him not to. - Even though I was told him not to, right? So there's obviously a little bit of a divide there and how they see the world. And the fact that Kristen is like the thing that you said about Beasts and Honor, yeah, this is how I'm going to like pretend that we're talking about the same thing. It's so clear that they're not. I mean, the look of horror on Gawain's face. Great Gawain episode. Because when Darren had the like brightness on his face and his Gawain kind of-- - Yeah, yeah. - You know, that was really lovely. - Kristen is-- - I don't know if it's like any form of purpose. - I don't know that it's like that he loves Gawain, but it's like-- - Any more protection. - Any more protection from Warmen. Gawain just seems blissfully normal in this entire thing. He started off seeming like a kind of a weak bitch ass nigga for a while. And then like, as we in Word on Talk to Thrones first time, and as we continue to go, he starts becoming somebody that's a little bit in over his head, but in a very, very, very relatable way. And so now when I-- I could see him being comforting to him because he's like, "Is somebody that I can talk to just gonna show up in his motherfucking?" - I love that. I think it's-- I'm just really interested to track these two, and they're, and they're, you know, true-- they're poultry few handful of people that they have left with them. - Yeah. - This idea of like guerilla tactics inside of Game of Thrones. - It's a match of warfare, yeah. - Not a river skill. - Yeah, the river skill. - Really excited to see-- I don't know how that's gonna go. Cold does not seem to certain that they're gonna win, but he wants to try to slow them down and hurt them. - I just want some purpose, meaning, and glory, it feels like-- - I probably see him come up out of the mud, and this is like where it pops out of me. - You want something for himself. He wants to call his own shot. He wants to do something. He wants to-- he doesn't want to have to wait on the dragon or wait on anything like that. - To feel like he has a place in any way that he has a place of any of it. Like, when he's given that monologue, he's talking about what everybody else has, but then he also talks about what he comes from. - Sure. - Like what he is. And he seems like he wants to honor that. - Which is something Gawain had weaponized to mock him in season two, and now Kristen is trying to reclaim it. Did you think it was purposeful that Alice called herself the steward? - Yes. - She's in Kristen's head. - Right. - And she knows that he's thinking about his dad, thinking about what it meant to be a steward of a brother. - She's in everyone's head. - Yes, I love her. - Very good. - Big reveal, I would say in this episode, is that Helena is pregnant. That is how I am interpreting what we just saw there. - For sure. - You guys can say that. I can't say that. - Those kids are swollen. - Yeah, and she's sort of like reached for the abdomen, and so. - I laughed. Why was I laughing? I was laughing. - I laugh when we see Helena in the back room, just like she's struggling to get her night out. - I was watching with my mom. My mom was like, "Oh, she fucking pregnant." - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - So this is a, both a book change and also an attempt to sort of like reconcile with what's true in the book, which is that Helena has another kid in the book. And I don't know that we need to go into all the details of what's going on with the kid, but I think it's really interesting. I think we can talk about this, and you can tell me if you don't think we can. But the absence of that kid in this adaptation, Helena's other kid, was the real sore spot for George R. Martin. He called it out specifically. So I think it's interesting that they're like, "Okay, the kid's not here, but she is pregnant." So this idea of another kid for Helena is being introduced into the mix. Mal, do you want to like, how much do you think we can talk about or speculate about how this might play out? - I think there's a lot we can say, actually, like we won't get into any of the stuff that happens with that kid who does exist in the book, obviously we won't touch that. But to your George point, that's the now infamous Beware of the Butterflies blog post about what certain adaptive changes mean for not only events for those characters, but other characters. I think it's interesting to think about in a couple, like so there's the real world connection there. There's just the, we were talking in the deep dive after episode three, how long has passed. This is like a bit of timeline clarity that's just, I think, helpful for viewers that like, we know Egon's cock exploded like a sausage on a spit at Rookstress. This is-- - If that's Egon's kid. - They're not his kid, or it's just a way to kind of cement that it's not been that long since Rookstress, which we also feel when Egon and Lyre start there looking at Nailie's is, you know, beheaded corpse still fresh, people looting the corpses in the battle feeling fresh. Pretty rank, actually. - Covered in flesh. - I think that the idea of a nut, if it is Egon's kid, or people will assume it's Egon's kid either way, the idea of, we're not going to go back and make blood and cheese more intense by like having that choice. That's done, right? But, what will the realm think if there is another trial? - Yeah. - Is huge, right? And it's huge for what the realm thinks, but obviously for us as viewers, the more important part is, what does Renera do when she knows this? - I think they're indeed a girl. - Yeah. And I think the fact now and in. in hindsight, to last week's episode, that we spent so much time, it was kind of comical the way Damon kept being like, you're gonna have to kill Darren, right? And that was interesting to see how Renera processed that and what choices she moved in and out of, the fact that in this episode, Renera assessed to Allison. - I was scared of him, you know? - And on both of their faces, it's like, would you have, so this is on our minds, it's like not only a Darren consideration, but a primer for that. - That's interesting. I interpreted that differently. I thought Allison really believed her when she's like, I would have spared him. That's why she offers up that information about women. - I think she's just sort of like, I do think you would have spared her. - But I think Allison is thinking back to what she said to Renera last episode, which is just the weight of the burden of being on the throne, of having the crown, whatever you think you wanna do and whoever you think you are, that's lost. It's changed, undeniably and inevitably, whether you wanna believe that's true or not. - Why do you think Allison would in that moment give her something in exchange for that moment? - Because she's trying to get her exit still. Like she's trying to preserve her part of the pact. But I think the fact that Renera, the flip side is, she was appalled after blood and cheese. Appalled, the Damon did this thing. Appalled that Helena's child, who was also Agon's child, was killed, appalled that a young person was killed. Renera has now lost two of her sons and knows what that grief is like. So you have these different aspects of people saying, you are the challenge, right? Going back to season one, you can't leave a threat to your reign alive with like what is still in Renera's heart, which is like compassionate care. She brings Allison that ring, you know? I got all those bones back, here's this ring, Viseris would want it. There is care and love and humanity, which of those will win out as the story keeps being told. - Yeah, and also, you know, I keep her in fact the fact that these people are like family. - Yeah. - Right, and even in the last episodes, she goes, she's talking to fake Darren, she goes, you are my half brother. - Mm-hmm. - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. - You got a new server? What did you have to say for yourself? - I love that sound. - Like they're all family, right? So this baby is represents this incredible threat to like the throne. - Yeah, sure. - This baby, but it's also like her grand baby, right? It's also like, that would be Allison's. - Allison's grand baby. - It's also her grand baby, right? - Yeah, it would be Renera's. - And also Renera likes Helena. - Yeah, love her. - Right, so like you look at this and there's going to be this double source of dread. Number one, you're in danger. Number one, this child that I am hardwired to love is in danger and also something else just about the show. That between them gave Helena's character some narrative agency. - I really liked it because she was like, it's clear that she knows and she's hiding it. - And she's been hiding it. - Now we wonder, oh, she's been aloof, she's been away. She's been trying to hide this. Now we know, now when we see her, she doesn't come into the show as an afterthought anymore. It raises the stakes for every scene that she's in. - Absolutely. - Van, what do you think of Aegon's sort of undercover boss storyline that we get in this episode? - Man, let me tell you, since I was a kid, I love the prints and the popper. - Yeah. - I love stories where noble people have to go into the world and see the way other people live. - And separate the piss from the shit. - Separate the piss from the shit because it always re-orient like they're understanding of humanity. Like, there's a world where him being down there actually makes him a better future ruler because he more understands like what's going on. - Yeah, when he's like, is this how you rule running out of food for your people and you're like, buddy, Aegon? - Right, look at the mirror. - Like the entire thing, right? - Yeah. - He just kind of gets this crash course on what it takes to live down there. - Yeah. - Because to live where he's lived, like he's prepared for that since birth. I love all of that stuff. We'll say that when Gamer Thrones wants to get disgusting, just the, you can smell the world. - But I think there wasn't as much of them. Larry's the other guy, right? There wasn't as much of them in the episode, but it was perfectly sprinkled in to like take the episode over the top. - I also think Larry's is like so funny. When the look he gets on his face, when he's getting threatened, he's like, you wouldn't hurt a member of the faith. Would you? It's just like so funny. - I'm just talking to my right heart. Can this motherfucker talk himself out of getting his shit pushed in? - Yeah. - He knows exactly what to say. - Which is why he's the best character in the show. - A ruler and a survivor. - Yeah. - He is completely brave. - Yeah. - Like devastatingly focused. - Yeah. - And every single time someone is talking to him, he just lets them know what one sentence, I'm a little bit smarter than you are. - He's like, oh no, here's my entire coin purse. When like, he definitely has other money on his person, not to mention that they have the crown. We've talked a lot about Team Green. I do want to make sure we talk about Team Black. - Yes, I do think we should just quickly note though the Sunfire thing that Egon is like, my boy, I'm here, I'm here. He's alive. I know if he's alive. He must be wake up, Sunfire, I'm here. Heartbreaking, warns us to Egon a character who has done a lot of terrible things, but you see that bond, that desperate need to believe that the way he's holding one of his scales as he walks forward. I think on the lairist front, the thing that's interesting about it is, like, I agree, he's a schemer, he's a plotter, he's always a step ahead, he's incredibly smart and observant and attuned. He shares something else with other characters who are not Targaryens, which is failing to really appreciate and prize the bond between a writer and their dragon. We've got lairist being like, I know you're sad, let's go. You said you wanted to see him, you saw him, let's move on. We had Allison say to Amand when he was a kid, like your obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding. We have Orman just hand waving. Darren's saying, don't show any affection to this even part of what I loved about Damon and we can transition into team Black from here. Damon and Reyna was like, Damon, saying Tarina, not wrongly, by the way, we saw what happened at the Billet. Wild dragon, it's not gonna happen, you're not gonna be able to control, this is like nuts. Very purposeful on the show, on the show's part that as that is happening, Caraxi's is ignoring everything that Damon says. Oh yeah, Obey. - No. - This is the first time we've seen Caraxi. - Yeah. - But the show, this show's done a great job of explaining just how intimate these relationships are. 'Cause Caraxi's is like, hey, dad, there's something that you have to see. - Yes. - It's like, no, Obey, serve, serve, serve. He's like, no, I serve my ass. Look, your daughter's over here. Put a wild dragon and they shacking up. Like, I know better, I got your back. I protect you, but like, and that to me, made what Orman said at the end of the episode, even more like out of touch. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah. - Doesn't understand the culture of the Targaryens. He doesn't understand what he's actually asking this kid to step away from how Damon-- - That's a press. - To suppress, you know what I mean? So he doesn't even get what it is that he's talking about. - And I really like this, the Reina, Darren, sort of what makes the Targaryen Targaryen a question. I'm always interested in asking, but like sort of Reina's like a Targaryen without a dragon. Pathetic, shunned. You never thought of me. The show didn't give a shit about me. Like, nobody cared about Reina until she found sheep's dealer, and for Darren to be like, okay, my dragon's in chains, and I'm using this house high tower sword to kill someone. But like, I'm being asked to suppress this dragon nature inside of me, either with hair dye or otherwise, I think it's really interesting. - No, I think about, I can't help but thinking. So, you know, she never had a dragon. She reminds me of a family member that doesn't fit in with the rest of the family. And so she goes and starts fucking with drugs. 'Cause even when she, I'm serious. Even when she walks out, she has the look of a wire character or a pookie from New Jack City. - I need to ask you about the wig. - It's terrible. Go ahead. Like, go ahead. But so when she-- - It's very bad. - It is. Sheep's dealer is like her narcotic. It's like, she's chasing the high of being-- - Chasing the dragon. - Chasing the dragon of being like a part of her family. And she basically told her dad. She goes, you know, man, I'm not getting off coat. So go like, I'm not ready to stop drinking. Go tell your wife or whatever. What a fuck you need to tell 'em. If you want to sell 'em me out, you can sell 'em me out. But I'm about to go back and hear again. - And you didn't care what I was doing before. So, you care now? - You care now? - To keep on not caring. - I've been knowing what you've been doing. - I love that aspect of isolation leads to desperation and the decision to stay and claim sheep's sealer and it's in the first place. And to fly into the gullip with no prep leads to isolation. Very of a piece with Cindy. - But she still is sharing the food with her felt like more than anything that her family had ever done. - Yeah, absolutely. - Demon Flustered is a very rare thing. I thought that team was great. - It was so cool. - So he was like, yo, I actually do really good. - Kind of love you. I don't want you to be in here. - I do remember that you exist, kind of. - I was like, I don't want you to, and then he made his decision in a grotesque way to protect his daughter. - He does, yeah. And part of like his Heron Hall awakening that we've talked about so much through the lens of the Sarah's and Ranera and the prophecy was also Lena's specter appearing to him and saying like, have you looked after our girls and what was the answer? - I have not. - So to be confronted with the cost of that. - But I also liked seeing Damon, badass of Westeros, dive out of the way when sheep's sealer and Rainer come out of the cave, like she's on the back of that wild dragon and she's like, fuck you dad. I don't have to listen to you. I'm on drugs or I've got a big car or whatever you want to say. - All right, let's talk about the team black small council, locked into place, right? We still got some empty spots here, but like master of coin torn Manelie's like, has anyone ever had a tax? - I'm confident. - I love this guy. - I also love this guy. - I'm using so far. - Missouri has got the most influential spot I would say, right, Ranera's like, we're going to give all the gold the the small folk. Yes. And it was like that position. Mistress of whisper, which was where is this job. Yeah, yeah. And so, uh, and we're nearly like we're giving all the money to the pores. And he was like, you got to give it to the cops, Renera. And she's like, no, we'll let the cops abuse the pores, but we'll give the poor people their gold. And Damon's like, this kind of ruling is not going to go well. But the constant Messiah, Damon sort of grappling for influence inside of the small council is interesting. Alan's there, though I did like his scene with Renera. I felt like this is the first time something I've been saying about Alan that has been like frustrating to me as he seems so like one note. All the scenes are about his legitimacy with his father. And so the scene that Renera and Alan have, uh, right around the dusty Lego set of a serious Lego set. I thought it was so beautiful because yes, it's still about his father. I it is. But like it's about him connecting with another character. Yeah. Um, about him having advice to give to her, not just about the cats, but just sort of like what coreless needs in this moment. And I just thought this was like a big step forward for a character that I've been like really searching for more depth from. He reminds me the most of John. Tell me more. Really? Yeah, because he's noble born in shame. Yeah, just like John and like John was going to the wall, all of that stuff. But through task, John proved his psychic nobility, his emotional nobility, his worth. Yeah, and and so the only way that Alan has been able to prove his worth to his father to this realm, now to his queen, simply by saying something that my grandmother and father told me when I was a kid, we got rats in the barn. Let's go get a cat legitimately. Like, hey, I see a couple rats in the barn. I'm trying to feed the horses around me. But baby, go down there and talk to the ladies. She got some kittens down there. What the hell that's going to do? I'm put a cat in there. Rats go. I'm so excited for the future of the red keep swarmed with cats. Though I'd be obviously then very nervous about their well-being, you know, serpounds. Yeah, but maybe it's like a serpounds ancestor. So he's proving his worth as a sailor, as a combatant, it's proven his worth as a son really. And now quickly, just put a little thing, proven his worth as an aid of the king, as he the hand now is the hand. He's sitting in the hands, Chad, he cannot be the hand. That would be the craziest thing ever. And the reason why I say that he reminds me of him is because they're still a purity to the character, to where it really feels like in every situation. He's taking the opportunity to do what he legitimately thinks is right. Yeah, for sure. I want to close out by asking Mallory, I thought this is a really good or a while episode. And or a while is a character who has been around like since the beginning, not since the beginning, but for a long time. And now is is being given much more to do. And this is an act I've always enjoyed in like many things, but I just feel like finally they're writing him scenes where he gets to actually do more. And he's engaging in one of the larger themes of the episode, which is like the faith and also sort of where does the rubber meet the road? And he's like, Oh, are we going to, I'm going to kill the septum? Is that what we need to do? I'll do it. What do you need? What do you need me to do? You need me or someone? She goes, oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So how are you feeling about Orwell or anyone else on the council you want to talk about? I think in general, it was just like a fascinating. And this has been true all season, like a fascinating episode to think about the dynamics between these people. Where is their actual trust? Where is the trust sort of necessary and force, but not authentic? And how lasting is it in either circumstance, right? So to see Renera kind of, I think, authentically come to open up and reveal things to Orwell. Like, to say, the high septum won't annoy me is to reveal something that makes Renera vulnerable to somebody that could, in theory, take that information and wield it against her, right? So that shows a genuine, not just maybe ability to trust Orwell, specifically. Perhaps in part because Missaria was like, I think this guy's okay. And we know how much stock Renera puts into what Missaria says, but because of the need to have people around her, she needs advisors. Yeah, saying last week, like, useless, right? But she also needs a type of advisor. When you look at the advisors that she seems to kind of job with, it's, how can I put this, it's Alan, it's Missaria. It's people that like, she finds their worth for herself. Not the people that she is told should really matter to her. Sure. Coralist, Damon, those people give her advice based on tradition, based on structure, based on, honestly, like masculinity a lot of times. It's like being hyper, hyper, go, go, go, kill, kill, kill. This is the way you got to be. Yeah. And when she actually has a moment with someone and she goes, oh, you care about what I'm going through, you respect what I'm going through. And you have something actually to add, she then performs a bond with those people. I think that's kind of what's happening with the three members of the council that we're talking about right now. I like that she has torn manually on the council. Because even though he's like kind of there for comic relief to a certain extent, it seems like, um, definitely she met him at the rap banquet. Yeah. And he called her out. Yeah. And she's like, I want that voice on my council. And like, we gave for near, I think rightly so, a lot of shit for like the way in which she made some poor choices in her management style last week and stuff like that. But just sort of like looking at who she's choosing to surround herself, I, I actually think she's making good, I'm worried about Missaria, but I think she's making good choices. You worried about Missaria, how? Just like her influence over Renera and like what her ultimate agenda is. I mean, even, even appointing to our manorly as master of points that happened because Missaria was like, it needs, let's get a skate going. Yeah, we need someone to blame. The fact that Missaria sniffs out that Damon is full of shit with the fake sheepsealer right ahead, for us with the history between those characters, very exciting, worrying, I think, to think about Missaria. Now, mistress of whisperers, little birds, actually finding out the truth or whatever she's going to do. This is a character who has said multiple times now, to Renera, some version of, you sure you could trust Allison Damon, there's not a chance that Missaria's not going to try to also she's to Renera, monitoring all of the ravens in and out of the castle, or while has to share that information with her now. So, whether it's like actual proof is retrieved or just planting the seed, to sort of distrust, we talked a lot last week about like mounting paranoia for Renera. The fact that the chief advisors are not aligned and are not only not aligned, but determined to best and trump each other is the risk of that stoking-renera sense of like, I don't know who I can't deny that all the paranoia is very, very real. You couple that with one of her dragon seeds, all saying, I thought this was shocking. I mean, it was a historical that he came in and asked for the. What's he drunk when he said this? Probably, I think he had a bulls eye in his eye. Some of your misguided subjects who mistakenly believed are queen to be unkind. She could have gone off his head right there, but she needs it. But he also, she needs his head and his belly and that's the story. It's a moment where he realized how important he was. It was also a moment real quick where he was like, "Hey man, you fuck with me, I'm gonna fuck with you back a little bit." Hey, just let you know, the guys that I drink with, that I'm asking for a little bit of extra poor, a little deeper poor of the need for them. These are the people that's out there saying, "You ain't shit." Yeah, exactly. And they say this all the time. And the way she chose to deal with it was interesting to her development as a monarch. She did, the way she chose to deal with it was with the heaviness of her thumb. Yeah. Erase it and find out who's doing it. Not I need to be better. And she doesn't have an eye on it, because when we watch her goal cloaks in the street, and when we watch Orman's men in the streets of Tumbleden, there's no difference between the way in which they're using the people on both team green, team black. And here we are once again. It's a civil war and the small folk are the ones who suffer. That has been an episode of Talking Browns. We'll be back. You can hear more from Van on the Midnight Boys. Me too. We'll be back with the deep dive on House of R. Thank you so much to the whole team that is here. Thank you to Chris Ryan and Abcensha. Wow, man. And we'll be back with Chris, but thank you so much, Van, for filling in. It's really fun, guys. It's an absolute pleasure. It was intimidating. Stop it. This is fun. We'll be back after next week's episode. Immediately here on Talk With Brown. See you soon. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]