'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive

(phone ringing) Greetings. And welcome to "House of R." A ringerverse podcast on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, you should know, she's the clever one, Manderley. (laughing) It's Joanna Robinson. Hello, my darling. Hello, my dearest. I'm so excited. This is my favorite thing to do. Talk to you about thrones. Same. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here with you today. Thrilled to have the bad babies with us. We are here to dive deep, deep, deep, deep into somehow already the fourth episode. What the fuck? Somehow already halfway through the season of season three of "House of the Dragon" and we're gonna get to it right after this. We are thrilled to share that the ringerverse team of the Midnight Boys, BUP, and "House of R" will be returning to San Diego Comic Con this July. We're kicking off on Thursday, July 23rd at Whiskey Girl for a ringerverse fan meetup. No badge required. We'll be there for an hour or so starting around 6.30. So come say hi, grab a drink, celebrate with us. And then on Saturday, July 25th at 10.30 AM, come to our panel. Comic Con badge holders can find the Midnight Boys PPO and "House of R" in room 5AB on the upper level of the convention center for a ringerverse supergroup panel. We're gonna be discussing the franchises that have dominated "Nurkultur" this year and take in stock of what's to come. So whether you're local to San Diego or in town for Comic Con, we'd love to see you at Whiskey Girl on Thursday or if you're a bad shoulder. Join us on Saturday, July 25th for our panel. See you in San Diego. (upbeat music) Okay, here's what we're actually getting to. Programming reminders, couple of updates. This podcast is coming to you a day later than usual. Thank you for your patience. I have been to quote Logan Roy incredibly unwell. I still am, not contagious, but I'm gonna do my absolute best today. Had to push one day, very sorry. The ripple effect of that is that we are not doing the Oppenheimer pod today as we were supposed to. When will we do that? Guess what, not before the Odyssey now? Mm-hmm. That's a part. We are just leaning into the non-linear story. I'm telling, this is how Christopher Nolan would want it. As fully as we possibly can. We love a bit. We love a bit here. But I do think it'll be really interesting to talk about Oppenheimer in the wake of Odyssey. And I had talked about this as we got out of our first screening of it where we were just sort of like, "Wow, Oppenheimer." Yes, on the mind. Both from the storytelling perspective and then I think actually to come back with an appearance in the time where more people have gotten to see Odyssey and we can also just talk about the uthra and like where, because hey, I don't know if you all have heard, Oppenheimer won Best Picture, won all the Oscars. So like, you know, now that we've seen another master work. Mm, where's it rank? Where does it all rank? Where is it rank? We love a list. Is this all just a long time to have more time to figure out our personal power against? What can we say? What can we say? Just to say. We will be plotting about the Odyssey in just a couple days. We are very, very, very excited. I could not be more excited. This is like same. I know I just said, this is my favorite thing, which is true talking about the runs with you, but like talking about the Odyssey. I would say there's a dash of our thrones in the Odyssey. Oh, more than a dash. Yeah, a healthy poor, I would say. Very healthy poor. We will, of course, a reliable narrator. That's the theme indeed. It just was the theme of the summer. Now I'm pivoting to who's telling the story and do we believe them? I don't know if you can pivot. I think you have to hold that all at once because we're probably not done with incest. Let's just be honest about it. Okay, speaking of, we will be back for talking to thrones on Sunday night for episode five of House of the Dragon. CR will be back. The question is, will you be giving back your Oklahoma Nays Hat? Will you be giving back? Your Recap duties. Your Oklahoma Nays Hat. Do you think CR is gonna walk in and say, "Bring A-GON, the Usurper." To me, thanks for all for their kind words about my CR cosplay. The adoring public. I genuinely loved it. Appreciate it. But the master's back. I'm really excited for CR to be back for episode five. It's also somehow Listaat finale time so we will be covering the final episode of the third season of interview with Vampire. The Vampire Listaat, top of next week. And then we're going to Comic-Con. We're gonna be at Comic-Con. The Midnight Boys Pupue are gonna be at Comic-Con. Thursday night meetup. You don't need to pass. No badge required. Come to the meetup, whiskey girl. Details are on the gashel handles and probably an ad break that you heard like 45 seconds ago. I like to give the authentic in real time here and just the flow of conversation about friends. You love a baked ad friends. Spont-Gone. Harder to skip a baked ad. (laughs) Panel. Saturday morning. Correct. Do need a badge for that. But we would encourage you to get one and come hang with us because we don't want to be embarrassed by an empty room. Fill the seats. Yeah. We're in the main convention center this year. I know. We're moving closer and closer to our ultimate goal, which is clearly filling Holly. When will we man hollage? Yeah. I mean, you were in hollage last year. Not, not in this capacity. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh my God, great question. Why don't you just subscribe to our freaking podcast already? I mean, that's the thing you could do. Why not? False on socials, at ringerverse, at House of R pod, on Instagram, and TikTok. Watch us on YouTube or on Spotify, wherever you like to watch your podcasts. You can see the beautiful shade of purple that matter is wearing today. And then last but not least, [email protected]. We got so many incredible emails. I'm getting emails, let's see. I put almost all of them into the notes. Will I get to all of them? I'm not sure, because there are only so many hours in the day. But I just wanted you to be able to see them all. And we'll get to as many as we can. Just like some really great deep thoughts and thematic connections from the bad babies this week. Just incredible work. That's always a good series, too. Oh yeah, some fun theories. That brings us to our spoiler warning. Same as always. If it happened inside of the fourth episode of House of the Dragon, Tumbleton, we'll be talking about it, beep by beep, and chronological order, as we go through the deep dive today. If it's ever happened in House of the Dragon or any other episode of Game of Thrones television, it could come up today. Book context, canon and lore from the world sprinkled as we go, but anything that's from the future in the canon, that is going to be in a separate book, look ahead, book spoiler section, the very end of the podcast, you will get another warning both from us and from Carlos' lovely sound effects. Correct. Before that section, if you want to hang around great, if you don't, you'll know when it's time to go. A chunky one this week, I would say. There's a lot to talk about. Anything else with a programming reminders front? I don't think so, did I miss something? No, let's do it. I think we got it. Let's get to the opening snapshot. Okay, episode four of season three, a tumble tin, 62 minutes written by David Hancock, who previously wrote the third and seventh episodes of season two, which we quite enjoyed. Listed as the co-writer for the impending episode six of season three as well, so that's exciting. That's something to look forward to. This episode was once again, directed by Claire Kylner, who has not only directed now three episodes in a row of season three, but by my math here, by my count, has now directed eight out of 22 episodes of House of the Dragon, so more than a third of the series. And well ahead of everybody. Everyone else, I went back and like did the count and like I think four is the max that anyone else has done, right? So Pachnik, Greg Utanis, and Gidevesan Patel, I think each had three. Three, so no one's done four. Why is he even close? Claire Kylner, that's what we should call her. Anyway, she's amazing. Another great episode from her in the behind the scenes or the after episodes, no, House of the Dragon spell. It was really fun to see her talk about filming inside of the throne room and the eerie. And so I went back and rewatched it because she was talking about where she wanted to place the camera and how she had like a circular track. And so watching that throne room scene, thinking about how intentionally she placed the camera and thinking about moments like Damon leaning over the moon door to say like your warmth about Jane and the camera's inside of the moon door. You know, she shot him from like, you know, so like just where is she placed? She's the only time traveled and put a GoPro on Lisa's head. Was that how they know? Is that how they achieved that shot? You think Liza is just suspended in, in mid-air. With a GoPro on her head. Tell me with production, is it possible? Yes, I like to believe. If anyone could do what it's Claire Kylner. As I told you, I'm barely hanging on today. So these are the kinds of questions you can look forward to over the next three hours get excited. Did you, I also was struck just in this like, of course, this intuitive and makes sense, but you think about inside of a television series. How rare it is, like hearing Claire and her team talk about getting to film in an arc, getting to film multiple episodes back and back and what that opportunity afforded, not only to think about the continuity across the narrative in those episodes, but the work with the performers, the use of the settings and scenes. I thought that was just like a obvious thing when you think about it, but you can feel the impact of that, I think. I don't want to like slow production down, and if this will slow production down, I don't want that to happen, obviously. We can't, simply cannot slow down. production. But like Claire Kielner. Do it all for every episode of the final season. Wow. It seems like she doesn't and I choose to believe this is a choice on her part and not that people think she can't. She doesn't do battle episodes really. And so- Gonna be hard to do all the season for them. Right. Which is why she's not on episode one and she's not in the back half of the season which seems like it's gonna be like wall-to-wall battles. So she seems to like- which is why we respond to her episodes so much because, you know, Gwayne and Kristen Cole sitting at a table talking in a room. I'm like, yeah, give me that shit. That's right in my veins. That's what I want. So I don't know where we're going to find space for Claire in season four, but I demand it. I agree. Claire will be back and we will be thrilled. Joanna, in case anybody missed your CR impression on Talk to Thrones, first of all, go check it out and then just watch all of Talk to Thrones while you're there. What does she think this episode give us your quick table setting take? And while we're at it, because it is the midway mark, how are you feeling about season three overall? Well, first and foremost, I would like to apologize to Vegard for misgendering her on Talk to Thrones. I really, really do apologize. Talk about doing a CR impression. Yeah, it was a method way of looking like I didn't know what the dragons were. So you're welcome. So my apologize to her and her family and her team. And I loved episode four and the more I think about it. I've had more time than usual to think about it. I, um, the more I think I liked it even more than episode three, which I loved, again, we talked about like conceptually, I really loved the execution of episode three. I think like, like, formatively, I think that was just such a really interesting choice. But as I said, I am so compelled by the Ormond Aaron stuff. It's like the most emotionally engaged, I think I've been all season. And, and so I do think this episode is so important for pulling that off. And giving us just like, I'm just so all in on our poor boy, Darren, yeah, with very little time. And that's an impressive achievement. So, you know, or like, scenes like Helena's pregnancy, which is revealed with one word of dialogue. Yeah, Helena. Her name. That's it. Yeah. And a tug on addressing them. That's great. It's, uh, yeah. So I loved this episode. I really did. I also thought this episode was, was wonderful. Uh, Ormond is just an incredible first season character here. I mean, really, really excellent. I agree. I'm quite compelled by Darren. And an interesting, uh, of two minds way where it makes me, uh, wish that Darren had been here sooner as I had wanted earlier. But also the kind of thing where like, maybe the time that we waited was worth it because it's such an effective moment and, and we'd introduce them into the story. So, you know, I do find myself thinking about how little total runway is left for episodes this season by all accounts eight next season and the final season and getting quite sad that we only have 12 episodes after we talk about this one. We've got 12 episodes plus two hours and 56 minutes of discussion about this episode. Plus the full rewatch who will do of all the seasons before the final season. Let's not forget the eight to nine total hours of trailer breakdowns. We'll do a heading in to season four, etc. Some phone as far as along the way for sure. Um, but yeah, I think that this episode, you know, obviously, uh, across the season already, we've gotten not only a big, uh, a battle like Gullet, but like, you know, Renera taking the throne in episode two. That's not a, a battle, but is such a seismic massive monumental pivot point in the story and moment, uh, and certainly has set peace aspects and quality to it. We had that, uh, structural and stylistic experimentation in episode three. And this episode in many respects, I think, feels more traditionally thronesy in and it's flow. But in a way that I, I find like, quite welcome and like sinking into, in an Allison's and Ormond capacity, a very warm familiar bath where I would just really love right now. Oh, that was, you know, warm. That was your last hand to my mind. I was like, what's happening right now? Oh, I, uh, locations, all the characters, a blend of tones. Did this happen on Mike for talk thrones or not when Van Assess if he thought this season was more like that they were given a mandate to do something more thronesy? I think this is off my off my, yeah. Um, but I, but I immediately agreed with him and we've been talking around a little bit, but I think that like, is it seeing a very recognizable set in, in the eerie, which they sort of like painstakingly recreated from the thrones era? Is it the, uh, and create the uptick and humor? Yes. Is it sort of this lean into, I don't know how to describe that it feels so different from like blood and cheese, which is this like shocking thing that happens in season two. But like, almost the rap banquet was more like, you know, there's like a zeal for the, you know, a bloodthirsty zeal for the, for the weird gruesomeness of, of the world. Yes. Not just sort of like, isn't this the most bleak shit you've ever seen? It's like, yeah. Lock the doors. It's the red wedding. And there's, you know, there's just like something, there's some pageantry to it that I think is really distant here. And so yeah, I do think it's like, and as we noted, uh, sexual assault aplenty, you know, an unfortunate hallmark of Game of Thrones. But it really does feel like not our fave, but like it really does feel like in many, many respects. They're, and just by virtue of the story opening up the world to your point, like all the different locations that we're going on the map, it just feels like to not just be bouncing back and forth from Kingsland and your dragon stone, but to like, it's makes a big difference. It does. It makes a big difference to be at Harren Hall, to be in Tumbleton, to be up in the veil, to feel the scope and more than scope the variance of the world. It makes it feel like we are properly truly in Westeros. And I think that it's an impressive balance right now midway through the season of simultaneously giving us more of that familiar thrones, like essence, but also I think really orienting us in what is specifically House of the Dragons mission and intent. And what does that feel? Like, the dragon stuff. I just think, I mean, I've brought it up a time where 400 on variance ringer podcasts over the years, but one of my great lament, one of the things that made me fall in love with a song of ice and fire and throats in the first place, and then great laments shared by many, of course, at the end of the series was kind of like losing a feel for the supernatural fantastical elements, goes to, I'm never over it, and I never will be just everything with the white bonkers at the end. All of it. This episode gave us three distinct but related really crucial snapshots of the bond between a writer and a dragon in a way that like as not only a House of the Dragon fan and Throne's fan, but a lover of fantasy worlds, like really appreciate, right? And to be able to blend that with making more room for the comedy and the humor, there are still plenty of of, I think what you said about Throne is really crucial, like there's a lot here that's still grim, but that's different from everything feeling so dour all the time, you know? And I think they're doing a good job, and this is something I think the show always did well that we appreciated about it, but it is like humming at a new frequency right now, simultaneously pitting the teams and sides against each other. This is something we responded to in some of our favorite episodes of season two, quite, quite powerfully. The descent and the turmoil inside of the factions, and then the surprising parallels across nominal enemy sets, that's when you can really feel that thematic richness and interest in the characters, the dynamic. And also, I think like we were talking about this, I think responded to it quite well in episode three, but I feel like now we're going to just be in this place across the rest of the series, that's my hope, or that initial investment in time, the history between the characters and the beginning of season one feels so worthwhile now, in a way that I just appreciate. So I mean, I think we're near a walkin' around the dusty Lego set, you know, means a lot. It means a lot to us that we know who this airs is. It's very important that we know who this airs was, you know? On that front, we got, as I mentioned, we got a lot of e-mails sort of comparing character sets and, you know, we'll get to sort of like the Allison and Darren stuff and the, you know, the Reyna aim and stuff, like all of that stuff is really good. I thought this email we got from Lauren, this is to hop back to Otto's death in a previous episode, but comparing the death of the stag in season one, the hunt episode, where Viserys kills a stag that is sort of like roped in and brought to him, not the goal of the hunt. This sort of consolation prize is this stag that Harwin Strong sort of delivers up to Viserys. And Viserys with his Valerian steel sword makes a mess as everyone watches on and is like, is this our king really, right? So comparing that death of that stag to Otto's death, Otto's decapitation delivered up by Laris Strong, a different member of the Strong family, another Valerian steel sword and another sort of hack job. And to think about Renera being the one on that hunt to have seen the white heart, you know what I mean? So it's just sort of like, you know, how far she's come from her early self and her early confidence, and I think this idea of confidence for Renera, or while really sort of like hits in this episode, where he's like, baking your part in, your ass is on the throne. Do you need the shirt? You know, but like she's been so undermined for so long and so doubted that it's just gotten to her. But where is that Renera from season one, that character, you know, and I understand why she's not that character because of of what she's been through. - Yeah, I love thinking about that. I like the idea that the stag that the men pinned for Viserys was not the right target, and Otto is like a consolation price as well, which is interesting. I think the fact that there was so much, you know, thinking back to the wagon ride over. Actually, that ride over to the hunt was on my mind when in episode three, Renera fell asleep in the carriage and Moussaria, and they had that conversation about the rage, the billowing rage inside of it. Because I was always so struck in season one by Renera, there's such a tense family dynamic inside of the carriage ride over, but that like no one's here for me lament, and that was painful and hard to be on the outside of your proper inheritance, right? 'Cause there's this new shiny thing, but it's also hard to be in the spotlight, and at the center of things, and have everybody observing everything you do all the time, it's like the universe of it. - But it still feels like no one's there for her. - You know what I mean? I was thinking, I might stop at this later, but like thinking about Allison's three sons, and where are they right now, right? So like Darren is being groomed horribly by Ormond, right? And then Aegon's being led around by Larus, and then Alice I think has possession of Amid, but there are these like three people who are for better, for worse, and for their own ambition or whatever, have sort of like invested in a targ tower boy. But like, who's here for Reneira? Is it Damon? I don't ever trust that that's true, especially in this episode when he lies to her to protect someone else. Is it Missaria? I don't know, you know? So like who in that small council chamber is there for Reneira? - Yeah. Well, and like, on that Viserys front, I'm thinking now of Jason Lannister, handing him the gilded spear and the skiff, 'cause he was trying to secure Reneira's hand, and so this idea of all of this like, finery and the cosplay of power and import, being what like Viserys cloaked himself in and the performance of that moment, that feels so different, even though Reneira is receiving something from Damon there, it feels so different from like Reneira holding temporarily, that sort of went back to Damon as we talked about, but like holding the inheritance, literalizing that of like the power of their house, the lineage of their house, and then the prophecy. So your question is an interesting one, Damon Missaria, I think they each have versions of, you know, I believed Missaria last season when she said, like you are steadfast, I think, right? And I have like not seen that in the other leaders, that there was something genuine that led her to commit to Reneira, will it prove lasting? Difficult to believe that with any character, I think, Damon, I think we both fell in season two, that there was a genuine awakening for him, that the trials he went through at Harrenhal with Viserys, even when he said last week, like I've made my peace, right? The way that he has opted into, I'm gonna be a good boy now and do it, you tell me, is still so fully through the lens of, I subbed Dreams Didn't Make Us Kings Dragonstead for Dreams and Dragons made us kings, and now we should be gods, which is like, yeah, he sang Reneira, like they'll do, they'll bow to you, but it's about his sense of Targaryen might. And so there's always something I can then pull somebody into another level of priority beyond just their allegiance to Reneira, which has to be on Reneira's mind, how could it not be? - Absolutely, absolutely. Really quick run through what I'm calling weekly barred corner. - Really shakes. - I did ask our listeners to come through with like Shakespeare quotes and a number of them did, so shout out our listeners. - Love it. - But this is what they came up with for this week's episode. Ash wrote in with this line from Merchant of Venice, shout out to our guy Ormond, right? The devil can cite scripture for his purpose, and evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek, a goodly apple rotten at the heart. - Love this. - Perfect, perfect. - That's a great one. - Yeah. Aiden, who was the source of the original sort of like Shakespeare quote, and William both wrote in with the same scene from "Amid Summer Night's Dream," where Hermia is talking about her father, right? And she would say, I would, I would, my father looked but with my eyes. I wish my father could see me as I see me, with value, with my own heart, with my own decision, right? And Thesia says to Hermia in this very patriarchal fashion, she should treat her father as quote, one to whom you are, but a form in wax by him imprinted in within his power to lead the figure or disfigure it. So like this is such an episode about fathers and their legacies. I thought, William had this great line in his email, where he says legacies can be light houses, expectations can be fetters, golden or otherwise, in this way that like Darren and Raina and Ranera and Alan and all these characters are thinking about like, how do I live up to what my father wants or my, you know, be it your actual father or your groomie father like Ormond is. - Right. - Last but not least, Joshua, Joshua looking at that head on the table is like, let's talk about Hamlet. - Yeah, of course. - Yeah, cool, cool shout, Joshua. But Joshua's had like a couple of points, but one of my favorites was talking about sort of the, the palace intrigue of it all of Hamlet and how Hamlet, there are so many moments where characters are being observed. Like when Hamlet gives his to be or not to be so ill-quiet, he's being watched in that very moment. And we've been talking about, and Joshua pointed this out and like last week's episode, we were talking about like, all the shots where things were happening and members of the household staff were watching. And inside of this episode, we get like, Missouri sort of lingering outside the small council, you know, to talk to Damon, whose head was that, right? But she was listening through that whole conversation that they're having inside the small council. All sort of peeking his head around the corner into small council chamber. So like, you know, it's still, it's less overt than it was in last week's episode, but it's still the case that like when you're in the red keep, there are constantly eyes upon you and act accordingly or don't and see what happens. - Yeah, I love it. - Thank you, for the site's partners. Real fun stuff, my friends. - For sure, Venice, Missing Eyes Dream, and Hamlet. - Bangers, bangers only. I love it. Okay, what a fun opening snapshot. Oh my goodness, it's time to head to the battles. - Love a pleasure, Dan. - It's time for the episode four. Deep dive. (dramatic music) It's an opening credits update. - Torn Manorly, question mark? But we also still don't know who's standing next to him, which is such a weird thing. - I, yeah. - I have seen many people ask this quite, like no one has really determined who this is standing next to Torn Manorly on the tapestry. I have to imagine it's someone like in the small council, you know, because it all seems to be like people in the red keep, right? But I have no idea who it's supposed to be. - The like, kind of. - The need for a while? - Oh, I was gonna say Massaria, but it doesn't. - It looks like a Valarians white hair dark skin. That is what has been sewn onto the tapestry in a more well, like maybe like a hood or a well, maybe, but like, unclear to me. - Very strange. I think this is just a, we need a higher bar for who makes the opening tapestry in one. - So simple as that. - With respect to Torn Manorly, who I'm glad is here. - I mean, part of the small council. - Master of coin. - Come on. - Important guy. - Come on. - I mean, Rook's rest and the sewing of the seeds shirt. Torn Manorly just got a new job. I think we need a higher bar than that. I did enjoy a text to do this, but this time the splitting of the tapestry, the tearing of the thread, took the head off the bloody wrap, which made me feel good one week later for having previously thought that, - That was it. - Clearly the wrap was autostecaptated body. - Shout out Preston. - Preston, you're doing great. - Do you think the renting of the cloth is meant to, you know, foretell the coming of the cats and their claws? - I just, it's just a huge moment for cat people everywhere to know that Alan is a team cat. - It's just wonderful. - Only cat. - And one can only hope that the red keep is just teeming with cats for the rest of the season. - That would be fantastic. That would be wonderful. I love a cat and it's always stressful when they're in thrones, but we're welcome in here. We're welcome in here. All right. Taking over Templeton. - Mm-hmm. - Welcome to this new set, which is apparently the biggest set they have ever built for this show. This was from how's the dragon's built, twice the size of the king's landing set they set. - That's insane. - That's amazing. - Because the red keep is like a set entire. Like they can walk all the way through the red keep. So yeah, they built the whole ass town, I guess. - Amazing stuff. Obviously this is a crucial setting. Tell me what's important. It's an important place and so investing in building it out. - Cool. - Great stuff. A lot of really fun details in the house of dragon built about this location and the level of detail. You always just admire the craft of the show when you get to see there. Like, oh, we built this actual olive press, for example. And it's like, you didn't need to do that, but you did appreciate it. - I saw Fiya, who's the actress who plays Helena, was given, like there was a little Instagram reel of her giving a tour of the dress she was wearing. And she's like, this is all hand zone, you know, beating a borderie. There's a dragonfly on each of my cuffs and the dragonfly here and like lifts up her skirts and she's like, you're all the underscores. And it's just sort of like the level of detail on every single costume. It's just an incredible show. - That's amazing. This was also, we'll get to the actual sequence later, but Sunfire, usually they do the like, you know, blue screen, couple, folks holding sticks with the kind of loose shape of a dragon. - They built a dragon. - They built, they built, and it was so interesting. - So Tom talked about like, what the, scales felt like and everything. It was funny 'cause seeing that I was like, that, how did they do that? That looks like he is against a real and he was, wild stuff. I like, we've seen Jurassic Park. - Exactly. - I mean, who hasn't? - We talked about this at the end of episode three 'cause Chris was like, "Where's Tumbleton?" And you broke out your map. You, just for now, your watch has ended because, hopefully, they've started putting characters in front of the map in the small council chambers and so we can see inside of the show, okay, that's where Tumbleton is, that's where King's Landing is, which is great. I suspect your work will resume at some point though. - It's important work. - It's crucial. It's crucial work. In case anyone didn't check out the episode three coverage, just a quick refresh on where Tumbleton is, what it is, thriving market town, right? Very close to King's Landing, 60 leagues. So it's just southwest like right there, yeah. In the reach still, but on the border, with the crownlands, the headwaters of the mandor. - So there's just not far away, not far away at all. There's a beautiful bunny. We open on this bunny. - That's a very odd moment. - I mean, I understand, we're contrasting those sort of like pastoral innocence of the bunny. - The babbling. - But it was just like, the buzzing of the insects, Nietzsche piece. - That's your bath? - This is my bath, from the bath, I lean back. Forget insects, and then this is more drag, and I guess insects would be more of like a, I don't know, I'll have to work on it. - Okay, I think there are two moments in this episode that we just got done praising how beautiful it is, and it is beautiful. There are a couple moments where I was like, and the CGI bunny was one of them, and Damien on the back of Caraxies, when he here, when Caraxies is like, what's that then? And you see the sort of like, the veil behind Damien. That looked fairly funky green screening to me, but like. - I was too distracted by shouting at Damien to be nicer to Caraxies, and to stop like, slapping him with his gloves, frankly, how dare he to focus on the green screens? It's real to tell you that in the, there's a actual bunny with a leash, a leash, to not escape, jumping around, and then they took the leash out. - That was a real bunny. - I think so. Oh, I watched the House of Dragons build, I missed it. I think it's a real bunny. - Wow, that just disqualified all of my, everything ever. So we wanna keep that in the podcast, Joanna thought the real bunny was CGI? - Sure. (laughing) - We did fact checking at the end and confirmed. - No, I didn't. - My brain is totally outled. Claire summed it up by saying, basically it's the Nazis entering France in terms of the high tower army of 15,000 soldiers pouring in, and they are taking up residence in each citizen of Tumbleton's home. Now, our lens for feeling the invasion of this invasion, the invasive nature of the invasion is through characters we know ish. Cat, his wife, the brother we heard about for so long, Leo, and his family. - Yeah. Do you think their name Cat and Leo is that a Titanic reference to Kate and Leo? I choose to believe it is. - There to dream, we need Kate, we need Leo, we need them now. - That would be great. - Yeah, the unnamed sister-in-law, right? And then Leo. - Believe so. - And I don't even think we knew Leo's name watching the episode. It was only like after. - And there's been a lot of conflict over what his character was called, but we settled that it's Leo. - Yes. - Yeah, they're hauling lumber to increase their battlements, right? So they've taken over the town, they're sort of trying to fortify it, but Orman's understanding is that Vager will be here any moment. Like our biggest dragon's coming. And so we don't have to worry that much. We could just put up a few logs and it will be fine. - He's gonna respond really well to the update that he receives on that front though. - As always. - Nice and calm. - Even tempered, measured. - High tower banners being raised across Templeton. And the use of the workcarp, which I know was something that you found meaningful on the language front. He, Garek, the rapist. - Once a future rapist. - The once a future rapist and the, the assailant. - 'Cause I had to believe when he's like, we're gonna have a great time like we did in Honeyholtz. - Oh, no question. - Yeah. - And he's like, "I'm gonna rape again." - Before he gets to the house, he's like, "I'm gonna rape again." - Although the townspeopley places. - Got the shit out of that guy, that's what I'm just saying. - No question. - Tell us 'em, you know, if you're not happy with this. Carp to Lord Ormond, and they will, but with great results. So I'll tell you, it's time to talk about the bath scene. - Lord and Lady Footly are here. Big episodes for hats. - Yeah, what did you make of Lord Footly's hat? - Lord Footly is quite the hat. And then that guy who, the one guy in Flea Bottom who can read, also had quite a hat on. - That was a wild hat. - Banger of a hat. - Wild wild wild wild wild. - Just like a milliner's dream, honestly. Yeah, it's like a sort of very turbine-esque kind of hat for both of those guys. - Yeah. - A lot of silk and finery on Lord Footly for someone who apparently still smells enough to lead Ormond in a bathtub presumably surrounded by like soaps and scented oils to still recoil and horror. Once again, it doesn't give a shit who he offends. - Not just soaps and oils, there's like active incense all around him. - Yeah. - This is guy. - Do you think every high tower loves a bath this much? Or is it just Alicent and Ormond? - And Ormond? - I bet Gwayne loves a bath. - Oh, you know. - Yeah. - Gwayne loves a bath. - That's why he's like getting me to that end. - Yeah. - Oh, you're so right. - Absolutely. - Oh, man. - Great stuff. - I just want to shout out that Lord Footly is played by one of the actors who plays Ori the Dorf in The Hobbit. - That's right. - Yeah. - Oh my god, how sweet little things. - Yeah. - Delightful. - Delightful. Really the one getting things done here. They're like, we're not happy that you are in our bed chamber. This is our space. And Ormond's like, listen, doing a coup is tired work. I need to be well rested and also clean and smell and grit. - Yeah. - The power move of, it's not just that he's having this conversation with them while in the bath, which on its own would be astonishing. - Yeah. - And tell us a lot about him. - All of the business is being conducted around him. Everybody is coming and going and, - And it's not like there's a lot of bubbles in the bath. He's not hiding anything that he stands up. We had an email from our listener, Jonathan, who let us know that there was a BBC show King and Conqueror wearing both James Norton and another bath lover, Nikolai Costa Waldo, Jamie Lannister himself. - That's right. - Have a scene where they're taking baths in separate baths, but they're like, in adjoining baths. And then they are set upon by someone. And Jonathan wrote, they have to fight their way out, Eastern promises style. - Oh hell no. - So when are we, when are we touching? And Jonathan said to helpful screenshot, which I put in our notes many times. - How many times? - Accidentally on every page. - On every single day. - I'm just saying, I thought it was just a gift to me. - In the end, I knew I was struggling, and you're like, here's this picture of these two beautiful, shirtless characters. - But what are we doing in deep dive on King and Conqueror? That's the question. - I won't need much convincing after seeing this photo and hearing that summation. I'll tell you that. - Eastern promises style is a real, just, yeah. I really hope we get to watch that together. - It's a good long line, a long line, very strong. Joe, yeah. We like to talk about the dream of work life balance, but every now and then, it got a multitask. So any feedback on the working desk over the bath? You know, he had not only the nose ball, the pommender, the winery. - I know you listen to podcasts. - Well, and part work podcasts in the bath. But it's for pleasure. It's the watch. - And I have done work in a bath before. - Absolutely. - I have. - If you have a bath with like a proper like, I've yet to graduate to those sort of like that thing, that's like some real like bath luxury. Maybe for Christmas, I will gift myself something like that. But like, but maybe I shouldn't be doing work in the bath. That should be relaxing time. - You should get one of those nice wooden shelves, but just put like candles. And perhaps like a soothing tea? - Ooh. - Yeah. - Then why not? - Yeah. (laughing) - That's why not an eye-pad to do pod prep on. - Yeah, great stuff. - Guilty. - You think Ormond listens to the watch in the bath stop? - He's sort of-- - What's his favorite podcast? - He's a real green wall guy. - You know Ormond loves green wall. - You know he does. - Oh man. - Oh, and later in the episode, Ormond Hightower tells his traumatized war, Darren, that he needs to be firm but fair. - Yeah. - Do you think he was describing his, his tush? - Oh, it's entirely possible. - It is firm but fair. (laughing) - Do you think the, I'm gonna bathe with everybody in the room around me is like, I want people to be uncomfortable and disarmed or just, I don't care. I'm confident. I'm arrogant. - I have a center in my world. I don't care. - Interesting stuff. - Who knows my oyster? - Yeah. - I mean, the footleys bedroom and I don't give a shit and I'm gonna hack their table to pieces and I don't give a shit. - I wouldn't know what wood, what, you're a student of the world. - What type of wood is that table made of? That didn't hold up. - I mean, I just, I somehow knew you'd have an answer prepared. (laughing) - I don't know if that's right. (laughing) - I guess it's quite adorable. - It's a sturdy wood. - Great stuff. - Ormond reminds them the footleys, named us of course, that tumble-ton. - I was looking at outdoor furniture and I was like, considering some Akasha. - Well, in Los Angeles, you gotta think about like, you know, what's gonna hold up in that heat? Is Akasha a good wood for that purpose? - I think so. I'm less concerned about the cold weather here in Los Angeles as I would be up north. So it's a different climate. - Okay. - Tell us them, you know, tumble-ton sided with the pretender. That's what he first drew near us. - Yeah. - So basically, he's like the glad I took your bed chamber and not your heads, right? That's the vibe. She is the queen, that's why. what Lady Foley says, is she, or is she a bitch with a dragon, or a man that would say is very efficient, sexism, targracism, it's all right there in just several words, correct, several words. Steps up from the tub, the tush, the high tower on full display and tells them, my purpose is to restore the rightful line to the Iron Throne. So we have that, my purpose language later, he's going to say things to Darren that's all very, running in parallel to Raniera and the way that Raniera talks about this, ordained by the God's standing, right? Rightful line, I think it's safe to say from everything we hear from Ormond and see from Ormond across the episodes that we've spent with him so far. He means ginger and clad and green. He just means the high tower. He's happy to use a high tower targ to get there and use the dragon as a tool. But this is not about, I remain a loyal soldier for Aegon and he's green. No, Anakin, one king is as good as another. He told us right away. Yeah, Aegon Holders. We'll wait for Amon. Amon's right away. Guess what? I got a third one of the pocket. It's fine. And this one is actually my favorite choice because the one that I have most control over. Darren just sort of trying to escort Lady Foley from the chamber and she flips out and he just recoils because he's such a sweet boy. And we talked a lot about this actor on Talk the Thrones. Go to Benjamin. But just what he does in his nonverbal opportunities inside of this episode does so much character work for us. Excellent. And that's just like one of many, many moments. Just like his eyes, which are like filled with tears for like half the episode. Yeah. His uncle Quayne coming. His gladrilla here. His brain coming to stumbles in. Incredible. He is so my nice uncle. My non-reheal uncle. I know. I mean, don't we all long for going ultimately early? I just love going. I love Freddy Fox. We had clocked the use of sire before this character was confirmed as actual Darren in the first episode. And now extra astonishing given what we know and what we've gotten to see across half a season here. You know, the guy with the god complex forcing the actual prince who he's about to make king to call him sire. Honestly, it tells us as much as anything we see for Mormon here. Alternate theory. Tell me. In the behind the episode, Claire Killner described their relationship as Darren being in his thrall. Yes. I'm putting the vampire ormon back on the table. He's an evil man in his thrall. The vampire ormon. Have we seen him in the sunlight? Yes, but I don't care. But our mom's a day walker. So it's still fucking fish. You nailed it. You nailed it. You can win. I love this. Uh, bold John. Hmm. First of all, quickly, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the very warm reception to the ball cut photos that I posted on Instagram. That's not really the headline news. Thanks to the legions of you posting in the comments about how hot my mom is. Oh my god. Miss this. Well, she has seen it. I wish she broke. She's processing. First breath. You're a long time, I think, canonically established one house of our favorite character. Mentioned Joe. Absolutely not. As you know, that I'm a lyrus loyalist true. So much so that a listener sent me a lyrus thirst trap TikTok and I appreciate it. Um, also like someone sent an email where they're like in that line, they're like Joe, this emails about lyrus to like get me to click did work. Yeah, uh, there you go. Yeah, Boris Bratheon, canonically busy during this time in the war. Something's happened. Make it more busy. Yeah, too busy. Sorry. I like to be capturing this here with the excuses, you know, more excuses, which just then led to a string of quite rude uh, remarks from Ormond about Boris's again canonically established a literacy and the ugliness of his family members from Ormond, not a not a charitable guy. Not nice. Really tough. Uh, a bigger episode for hats or literacy because layers can read great question. It's all right. Can I read the lean in for all of like you're about to say what that says? I was like, hmm, I can definitely see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that the Boris, the thing that for me, the Boris mentioned most achieved actually was just like reminding us, it's a couple things. One, it's like the show always has work to do of just kind of reminding us who is technically in the story. Right. We haven't seen it in a really long time. Um, so it does that, but just reminding us because we've been, uh, you know, tracking this like, are you given your supporters what they, they need question, uh, across many interactions. And that was how Reneira lost Boris. And maybe she would have anyway because Amid was there was something to offer, but that's part of it's the offer. Yeah, it does. His fair, but for himself. Don't call fair, but for exactly don't like call me to heal and talk to me this way. Giving us a reason, except for when the battle actually starts. And then I'll be like, oh, uh, that's the other thing that's achieved. And especially in an episode, I think we're, we're Damon had to go up to the veil to say to Jane, you know, she's like, well, why the fuck do you need my man? Isn't the war over? So I keep talking about you big dummy. Great stuff. Jane is a Russian. Fantastic. And Damon's like, actually, we just need your money now, which I also have some notes on. Um, this question of like, what good is a pledge once made if it's not backed up with action? This is something that both sides have to think about. And we got little reminders of that. Boris, Orman, it, Boris is not giving Orman to the Greens what they need. Is everyone giving team black what they need? No. So this is a shared plight and individual. And I do like, you know, like, House Lannister got, uh, their forces got wiped out by the river landers and, and, and the wind. Fish. Fish. That's what happened to House Lannister. I mean, Lannisters are still alive. Uh, Joanna Lannister is still still going strong, but like, their forces wiped out. Yeah. Great joys were mentioned. Uh, I just feel like they're hitting like those thrones names. So we're like, where are the Baratheans right now? What are the great joys doing, you know? Yeah, we know them. That's right. Tyrell's. Man, remember when we got to go up and, and, and be in the north for a couple of minutes at the beginning of season two. That was great. I do. I remember when they made that like their entire like, this is what season two is about. I do. Uh, Orman is on everyone's minds. No, not just ours. Everyone's talking about Orman. Kingslanding to Templeton. Ranera is preoccupied with this rightly so. The black council is considering this question. We do have a new character in the show. Member of the Queen's Guard. Finally, this is Sir Adrian Redford. What did you call him? When you texted me? Harwin Light. And I don't think it's an accent. He looks so much like Harwin Week. Harwin Week. You followed up with the break bones reference there, which was important and crucial. Um, they, they just, they're styled similarly. They look alike. It just feels like they, they, they must have had this deliberately, but who knows. Ranera's like, why? Why? Why? Templeton? A market town. You know, it's not fortified for battle. Why? He dares to me to reign fire down on a seat that raised my banner. Just hearing that are ready. We're like on instinct, thinking of Danny, thinking of the bells, right? The realm would name me. Megor returned. They'd rise up against me. And this is like a smart thing for Ranera to be considering, right? A reasonable worry to have. The fact that this also shows us that warm ends shares, uh, passion for the high tower family business of like thinking about PR. This was such a central aspect of auto's character. Pisted him at a, a, a, a gone because he hanged all the rat catchers and people were going to be pissed. But what did that undo? The hard work auto did of organizing the Jeharris funeral procession, which led to the citizens of King's Landing led by a herald. Ranera the cruel. Right. So we have proof inside of the show of how quickly something, whether it's real or not, but she's not actually of Ranera's design. And it didn't matter. She was still blamed if something is of her design. What will the reaction be? Earlier, we talked about this when, when, you know, Ranera and Missaria went on their Rootabega quest. Um, and Damon said is a gesture only, yes, and gestures matter. Right. And so like, Ranera is somewhat aware, but not aware, she's bad at this game. There are things that Ranera is great at. But this PR game, the high towers outstripper, uh, at every turn, I would say like Orman doing his big show of like, well, gelled this guy. Yeah. Like it's fine. People have tumbled in. I am here for you. You know what I mean? And Ranera is like, ah, the graffiti. That's bad. I'm going to give the gold cloaks no specific instructions. Just say, make it go away. Yeah. And then, you know, that goes disasterally, disasterously for her because she's just not thinking through all of the ramifications of the PR battle. And once again, that graffiti moment is so interesting to me because like, again, to go back to Orman saying like, do you need the church? It's like, do you need to flip your lid about a little bit of graffiti? Like, is that, is that what you need to be that insecure about that? And again, I understand why Ranera is in that place, but like, it's, it's not doing her any favors right now. Yeah. It's tough. Uh, says that the gods also would rightly cast her down. I was struck by this just because it felt like a potential silver lining in a otherwise very worrying chose in one god complex. circumstance where it's like mostly that fanaticism is dangerous, it allows you to justify atrocities and decisions, but like, could it be a check? Could it be a check potentially on bad choices and bad impulses? Doesn't matter if it can be, if the overall path is still the same. This is kind of interesting. ArchioRWile is just very practical, he's looking for solutions, right? He says redirect Damon's river man. Well, to root out the high towers, house by house. Misari is viping with it, right? It won't be bloodless, but that doesn't sound like a good idea to me, honestly. Well, and also then they end up Bernera's like, wait, well, let's just to keep vigil, but we're going to set a dragon anyway, right? Now, it's an intimidation tactic. It's a monitoring tactic, right? Awareness, potentially a deterrent, though, of course, there is also a dragon inside of Tumbleton, but a much smaller one, much smaller one. Good vermouth or silver wing. No question. And at the end of the day, it's a dragon perched there on the town. You don't want to burn because you know your nemesis is trying to inside you to do exactly that. I do think sending a big fuck off dragon to go watch the town is not a terrible idea. Should have had a dragon tracking them every step of the way, frankly. Uh, correct. Oh, man, um, or wild Joe gets to keep his title of Grand Mastron, gets an official invite here to the council. Small ball. No, no, we're not doing that. We're going to have an era. All right. He's mobile era. It's nice to have an excuse not that we need one to think about our guide bees. I'm wearing my, my honeycomb earrings for House Beesbury. Fantastic. We'll talk about why in a little bit. I'm thinking about my guy lineman, but I do like like, again, it's these political animals thing or while as a political animal is really interesting to me because like, um, you know, later when he's like, oh, did you, are we are we killing this? Oh, we're not killing this up. Okay. I never thought you were joking about what I will if you, but no. Okay. We are just doing the like I was not familiar with your game meme and response to that. Love that. But like a small ball. No, oh, relic of a bygone era. Fuck it. No, Ma Torin, like when Damon comes in, he's like, I'm the clever one in here. And he's like, yeah, heard. Sure. Close you off. Yes. Heard shaft, you know, political animals. Yeah. And I just think that's really interesting. This sort of like, how does an or while make it through three administrations? Yeah. You know, and what are those political animals clocking and respecting in each other? It's interesting to watch in this episode or while in Missouri, observe each other because he backs his plan. She's like, sounds good. Yeah. And then later, he's like, oh, in response to some of what she suggests. This is very interesting here. The, the, I think that was the name, a master of coin, just a scapegoat. I mean, or I was like, oh, I see. You're a serious player. Game. Recognize. Yeah. Yeah. Got to step it up. Joanna, who is not in attendance? Oh, Corlys. The council is thin. And this is when Missouri offers up the recruitment plan, master coin. And I thought this was interesting that she wasn't like, just in case things like we can't, she's like, there are ready shit. It's just a matter of when people discover it. Yeah. So from the word go, it's a set up for Torin to take the blame. Missaria PR master, honestly, very thoughtful about it. Renera's suggestion here is rat banquet enthusiast Torin Menderley. Now, we saw an episode three that he is, I would say in a stooot observer of manners, of tactics, and also unafraid to call out BS, like he said to Renera, what did she say? He intrigued me, right? She says that he intrigued her. And I was thinking back to him, saying to her like, almost like they're, you know, it may be enough to like, you forget that it was your fault. That's what I mean. She was like intrigued by him, telling truth to her, telling truth to her. Yeah. That intrigued her. Alan tells them truth to her. Yeah. You know, any means. So she's like, kind of trying to, again, just where I want to give Renera credit, surround herself with people who will tell her the truth. Yes. Though Torin Menderley and his new capacity on the small council is just sort of like, I was sure. Yeah. That's everyone. Well, in part of what she's so desperate for is like people who have an opinion and an idea on a plan, you know, to go back to last week's the useless reaction to like a, whatever the Queen thinks. Yeah. Coralysis isn't there. Does it make any difference? Not so much. Yeah. Because he was useless there before I guess. I think it makes us wonder if, if Menderley feels like the kind of character who will be scapegoatable. You know, he seems pretty attuned. Yeah. But I agree with you. I like that Renera, even though she in real time responded with like, I have a long memory, you know, fuck off. He intrigued me. Yeah. Respected the hustle. Not officially a member of the small council, but let's be honest and advisor and all, but name, Alessent High Tower. And so Renera seeks Alessent out in the gods, what the background of this conversation in this scene. Helena and Johara just playing, which like in real time when you're watching this scene for the first time, it pulls on the heartstrings, but given the, the tension of the pregnancy reveal at the end of my god, I mean, to rewatch that was like, oh boy. Uh, Renera wants to tell Norman, Joe, and Alessent says she barely knows the guy. And Renera, who just introduced herself last episode to her own half-brother, probably should be like, make sense. Alessent has been at courts that she was a kid. I know how to say that. Would you say that Alessent, given the reminder here, that you know, she barely saw Ormond when after she came to court at King's Landing. And also, we learned in this episode that Ormond, not responding to auto's letters, which some theories and questions. Yeah. Well, well, we can, there's some other reads on that, actually. But it's not like, you know, because we know Alessent only saw, we do know definitively Alessent only saw it there in once in the last five years. They weren't visiting her to a trek. She hasn't done summary in old town. Do you say she's pining for a city? She doesn't even know. That's a nod to see, Joe. Wow. Great stuff. All right, Renera is like, okay, five, five, five, five. Tell me what you do know. There's this impatience of very understandable one, because there's so much to do. And from Renera's perspective, so few people, she can rely upon to help her to get information and make progress here. All right, tell me what you do now. The impatience with Ulf and Hugh in the later scenes was so funny, but you also do really, I think, like, I could really feel the stress in those moments. When I can pay you. He's like, I'm actually here for another reason, but like, no. And Joe, we hear what from Alessent about Ormond? Take us to this description. It's fascinating. He loves a bath. He hates smelly things, but also he's a scholar, studies the histories, collects tipistries, writes balance, despises the ignorant and the uncute. So Viseris, which we talked about, right? History is for sure tapestries. What is a tapestry? If not a Lego, you put it on the wall. And then, and then Darren, we've all a Damon, we've also seen like digging through the scrolls. Yeah, specifically with the scholarship for Damon, more the like obsession with his own Targaryen, Targaryen and Valyrian lineage. I'd say Damon, you could make the case if you really wanted to stretch it. He's a ballot enthusiast. You know, he serenaded for a myth or that's what the sky loves music. He did certainly despises the lesser. He has no patience for people. He thinks they're beneath him. So that's interesting to get some comps to both brothers there. I think it's interesting to hear all the high towers talk about each other inside of this episode. So like we will hear Gwayne talk about Ormond when we get to Harren Hall. But here, Alison is not just talking about Ormond, she's talking about what Gwayne thinks of Ormond. Thought he had a cruel. Yes. So if we think they're like Ormond, uh, physically or at the very least mentally abused, has a bit abusing Darren, did he do the same to Gwayne who is a younger relative of his? Like was Gwayne his sort of like whipping boy before Darren was and then did Gwayne do anything to intercede on behalf of Darren? Right. And Darren's like it's when coming to Tumble 10, you know, because like Darren who has been like molded as Ormond's ward, but is still such a nice boy. Like it feels like there has to have been some insulation there between Ormond and Darren. And I have to imagine that it was like, hey, should we not rape women Gwayne, you know, the best, the closest thing we have to like a moral high tower, I guess, but like thinking about the timeline of like Gwayne was there in old town until quite recent. That's right. Yeah. He's the one who offers up the report on Darren's character now, which also we see enough from Darren directly to just we see aiming the tenderness with which he's nuzzling to Sarian. He's a good guy girl. Clearly a good boy, clearly kind, but also he also loves a ballad. He's no question. No, the loot. I believe. Yeah. The fat. This is like another kind of confirmation that Gwayne is a good judge of character, right? Which feels important too for Gwayne. Like he said Darren was nice. We should believe him that Darren was kind. We should believe him. Says Ormond's cruel. We see clearly that that is legit. But yeah, just the the idea of like Gwayne, who maybe was bullied or tormented by Ormond himself when he was younger, doing what he can to, you know, to protect Darren and then not being there anymore. Right. And and Darren is now more vulnerable than he's ever been. And it's just him and fucking yes, man, John Rockston. And yes, to take refuge in his dragon bond, he can't let Ormond make him feel like shit about this core aspect of his identity and it's like I told you not to fucking nozzle that beast. Oh my god. I mean, I love a villain. And so I want Ormond to be here. But when he walked into that set and to Sarian ordered him, I was like, get him. That's description of Orman, you know, it's interesting 'cause he has, we've talked about the Valerian steel sword, the gorgeous armor. He's dressed for war velvet. - Green velvet. - Look, I'm just a kid. - That description's not giving warrior to me, but it is giving conqueror, right? It is giving, I'm thinking about my pursuit and advancement. - Taiwan, which is the comp that the show keeps wanting to make. - Talk about a wonderful cape, when dressed for battle. - I always remember thinking about that. When you just get caught in the fabric and maybe fall off, would you like to see Orman ride into some thrown rumour and other and just drop a doose? - Yeah, the Orman drop a doose or the horse? - Of course, 'cause he would be a horse. He would be a horse, but actually he would abor a doose. He would be like, what does that smell, assassinate that horse? - That Taiwan thrown rumour is still to this day, one of my favorites. The battle is of a, we have won. - How's Orman with Darian Reneira asks? And this was fascinating, Joe. Did it pain Allison to send him away, and Allison reveals to Reneira? It was her choice. Would you make it this? - Well, this is really interesting, very sad. Again, we've talked about Allison's sorrow and joy in hearing. - Yes. - That Darian is a good boy. But also the sorrow that comes with it is like, okay, all the kids that were raised away from me. - Right. - The kid that was raised away from me is a good kid. - Right. - And I raised Aegon and Amon's. - Right. - And, you know, Poor Helena. - And the thing that she said in response to Kuwait and the sixth episode of season two was at the court or their mother. And that is, yeah, agonizing. - We get it from. - We got many emails, you know you. You were asking this question on talk the thrones of like, is Darian actually a ginger or is Orman dying his hair red? I mean, a lot of your melons from listeners wondering, is Darian's red hair the reason he was sent away from court? Because if Allison is making this case against Ronira and her bastard boys based on the fact that they've got this dark partially based on the fact that they've got this like dark, strong boy's hair. And then she pops out a red-headed baby. She's like, get that red head out of here. - Underminds my whole hair, you know. - Well, I was wrong. - I love argument, you know, such a great shout. - Nobody liked to look at the hair color in minute one, quite like Allison Tide's hair. - True. - It's a great shout from the bad babies here. That was incredible. I found myself so, it was upsetting when we first heard Allison voice this question and this doubt in season two. But I found it like a different degree of despair. Darian, we should, it's kind of like true and not true, right? On the one hand, Darian is a better guy than Agon and Amen. - Be it help, but yeah, he clears it. (laughing) - He's fair, yeah. - Yeah. - Darian seems like a lovely boy. - He does, but to see like if only Allison knew, this is no life, this is no better happier life for Darian. This is misery, this is turmoil to see what Ormond is objecting into. And that just broke my heart. Like what would she feel if she knew that? It was just, it made me very sad for her and for Darian and for all of them. Like he wasn't actually spared. He was just exposed to a different type of cruelty than the one that he would have been exposed to growing up in the red keeping King's Landing. - Absolutely. And not only that, but put into, and we got a lot of emails and a lot of people commented on this and we'll sort of like hit it a bit more as we discuss the episode. But the parallels between young Darian and young Allison. And the way in which Allison was taken away from her home and molded and shaped by her father, groomed by her father in many ways to be like put on your dead mom's dress and go read to the King, you know, like all that shit. And the way in order for Otto to get closer to the throne. - To advance, yeah. - And the way in which Darian is under very similar circumstances and a lot of people have noted they feel like the after that they've constantly Darian looks like Emily Carey who played young Allison and stuff like that. You know, and there's there's like blocking parallels and all this sort of stuff like that. So it's like she did to her in trying to protect him. She did to her youngest son what was done to her. - Oh God. - Very grim. - You hate to see it. - The one of the things that Otto would say to Allison in those early season one episodes, you know, stop like picking at your nails, right? Picking at your cuticles and the fact that Allison was doing that again and was doing it in this scene. - So tough that the nail picking is back. - Man. Allison says, "I don't know now." You know, what fate that choice has consigned him to, Darian. And her nearer takes a beat, looks around, takes a near and then says, "You know, I would have spared him and it has this feel I think of like trying to convince yourself hoping that it would be true, hoping it would be true." And from for Reneer and then for Allison who was the author of the you are the challenge sequence with Aegon back in the day, which of course is on our minds and many respects in this episode and said to Reneer, "Last week, this is gonna change you and you can tell me that it won't." - You will do things. - You never thought pops. - You will do things you never thought. It's still like kind of this tandem of wanting to believe that that human heart and her friend is still there but having seen enough to know inevitably what the seed of power but also the nature of the realm, the order of things idea again. - You and I have like slightly different interpretations of this and I don't think that I'm not confident enough in mind to say that you're wrong or anything like that but your interpretation of this was that Allison - Yeah, doubts Reneer. - Doubts Reneer and offers up this information about Orman as like a self-protection. - Still trying to get out of here. - Yeah. - That could be the case. I thought I saw it as like oh there's my friend and I will help my friend. Maybe that's too sunshine and lollipops for what's going on here. But I think there's also another possible interpretation to what Reneer says, which is like you know, I would have spared him. But like can she do it now that he's caught up in this tumble tin business, you know, now that he's part of this gambit like that's off the table. I don't know. - Yeah, oh god. Geez, little it shoots leaves, you know, emphasis on the wrong survival stuff. I love it. This is where Alison offers up the very sensitive totals info and just genuinely can't wait to see how that plays out. - This is not in the book so like we have no idea how this is going to pay off, but it's got to pay off. There's no way it's in every scene that he's wafting, you know, nice smelling things in his nose for it to not come back. - We're going to hit some theories in the book section on that front, I'm excited. Coralist meanwhile, just like Alan, why don't you just do a little hand to the queen internship for a minute? - That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. - This is insane. Hand of the queen, hand of the king is like, it's like Robert Barathe and took his entire household up to Winterfell to ask Ned Stark to do this because you need like a, it's a very important job and you need the person in that role. Not to say the guy, but like the person in that role, you need that guy in on gender. To just be like, oh, it's Alan now and I don't think Alan is hand of the queen 'cause he's not wearing the pin, but he's sitting in the chair, he's on the small council. Now, here's why from like a TV writing perspective, I like this. We'll get the Alan and Ranera scene and we can talk about that and I talked about it on Talk Throne's how it was like, one of my favorite scenes because I had just been complaining about how every single Alan scene was just sort of like, about his, I mean, they're still talking about his dad, but about like his legacy, the naming, like he was like a one note character. But to give him that Ranera scene around the Viseras Dusty LEGO sets, but then like to have him on the small council really gives a show and opportunity to give Alan more to do and that is a character much more than Corlis at this moment who needs screen time, who needs flushing out, who needs deepening. So if I'm sitting in the writer's room and I'm like, this doesn't happen in the book, we'll just send Corlis off to murder up onto pirates. I cannot believe we told Chris, we were done with the triarchy and then Corlis is like, I got to go hunt down some triarchy for it. We will never be done with this book. But they're like, yada, yada, yada, Corlis is off, Alan's sitting on the small council. Jenny million insane thing to do. But from like a TV writing point of view, I'm like, I relish the opportunity to spend more time with Alan. - I think that's a great shout and like, I like as well that Alan, when he says to Corlis, it's like, well, I, okay, the giving you my name, thing to work out quite like I was hoping it would, but you can learn. - He doesn't even like tell Ranera though. He's just like, he's out, he's out, he's a horse. He's like, you'll sit on the small council by, and it's like Alan's like, I guess that's a my job to tell Ranera that you're gone and you appointed me. - Armored up, all of his men are a horse and they are ready to go find a triarchy. They miss them, they can't quit them. - The, I like Alan's reluctance is a character beat too. Like he's like, I'm not a creature, of course. - This is not, I don't have not only the experience, but I don't have really the desire to do this. So that's fun. - So not like, yeah, not applicable on account. - Which is a different energy from a lot of the people at that table who are thinking about advancement and Alan has different motivations and different, just a different relationship to the idea of power and proximity to power. So that's potentially very interesting. I thought that like Corlis, even though like you said, this doesn't happen in the books, I honestly was, when this for, I was like, one is going on here for a couple of reasons, like having Corlis leave the Alan thing that you noted. I do think it fits inside of the show that Corlis is a character who responds to. things going poorly at home by being like back off to war, you know, done it before. Remember when he disappeared for six years after 100%, no, it's just like I guess it's a sad thing to do. It really is. And then so Alan says here, the payoff of this comes in the later Alan C. with Reneira, but he says anger's not something that can be ended with a blade, right? He's trying to continue to provide us. He has this like wisdom to his father. He kind of comes in with the inverse of that later with Reneira and sometimes young men are full of seed. They've got their blood on seed. They've got their blood up and they've got to go punch something. Exactly. And like I thought it was interesting that I think when he says this year to Coralus, he believes it, but he still found the kind of like generosity of spirit to defend Coralus to Reneira. And also knows it's true, but also just sort of like, isn't this really where you want my dad anyway right now? Yeah. And that's how Coralus justifies it. He's like, this is how I can help. But like, is it Reneira needs some their new advisor? I'm really curious to see what they do with this genuinely. We have a lot of questions. We never have questions about whether we want to be with Larry. Larry. I mean, Larry. Larry. And now Sunfire, sweet Sunfire puppet that they built for this sweet Sunfire. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. You can't blame the dragons for their people. Okay. Too many dragons across the cannon have riders who are hero and then that person is gone and their next rider is a villain or vice versa. And obviously they do then form the connection channel, the love and hate of the rider. That's like an interesting thing. So Sunfire, having a role in Bailey's death is like, oh, no, no, that's completely amended vague. Are Sunfire a role? Sunfire. I got flew into battle. Took Sunfire who was not prepared for this. And then Sunfire immediately got caught open shredded and then they got roasted and I got a car exploded like a sausage, but we saw in this episode, I'm sorry, I'm not here to like vilify Sunfire, but like we saw cracks is just be like, Damon, I'm going to do what I want. Dragons can do what they want. And Sunfire is like, battle sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so I said a role, I didn't say, I killed mailies, but I'm just saying, I find it weird to be like, oh, cute darling. I love the dragon. But to say like cute, sweet, darling, just Sunfire who never did a wrong thing. All of these dragons are engaged in the battle. Yeah. They're weapons of mass destruction. Yes. All of them. And sweetheart little cutie faces too. Sweet, beautiful Sunfire. I just think that it's interesting. It's actually kind of why I think that the Sunfire thing in particular with Egon over seasons two and three has been interesting. It's like one of the only moments that we feel I think almost reflexive warmth starts on when they nuzzle their little faces before rooks rest and then watching Egon's despair here. No, I agree. This is the most humanizing me who stuff we get from Egon. I don't disagree, but I think I would caution, not you. You know everything about dragons, but I just think in general, like when we get to Sarian at the end of the episode and we see Darian, Nuzzling, Dissarian, which is like, oh, and like my sweet girl, we will fly again. Like all of our stuff. But what is it end with? The torch and the corpse. Crunch. Yeah. The crunch. Like, it was already dead. Dragon's gonna dragon, you know, they're not puppies, they're not horses, they're not slaves. You know, you cannot know the mind of a dragon like they are dangerous creatures. There is a reason that our boy, Kristen Cole, has been in a state of complete existential dread since being exposed to dragon war. It's all very sad, very, very, very sad. It's almost like you shouldn't wage a dragon war. And it's almost like the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. Thank you. Thank you for these wise words of wisdom in the opening scene of this series. Egon seeing, this is like, so we should remember he's unconscious because of the grave nature of his injuries. So this is his first. We've talked a lot about like what you need to see in order to understand and accept, right? What has happened? Egon didn't like see Sunfire after Rookstress. He was taken back in crates, gravely wounded and on the brink of death to King's Landing. So he's seeing this for the first time, processing this for the first time. He's just heard. He's also back at Rookstress, the sight of his ruin. It's a lot to process and very fire that burned his cock to his mother's. Exploded. Burst. So don't spend the sausage on spit, my boy, I'm here, I'm here. And there's this group, Joe of entrepreneurial monsters, so I'm referring to them. They see into a business opportunity, but I, of course, find this disgusting. This is straight out of the book, not this moment, but like this happens elsewhere in the book story line where people are like a penny, penny, a penny, that's right. I mean, that's right. There's the dragon mortis at the saddle, charges two pennies, because Aegon has both hands on Sunfire. Certainly an indicator of what the Targaryens are courting with this war, a magical creature, a symbol of Targaryen power, a godly proximity, might, the golden dragon, the most beautiful dragon that ever dragon. Turned into a carnival attraction, a penny to touch, certainly mirroring on not the most beautiful dragon front, mirroring, this is mirroring of Sunfire and Aegon and what has happened in the golden princeling piece of shit, but golden princeling and now, you know, it's going to be called Nangle Face by this piece of shit, Janos and in mere scenes, like how we get to a future where asshole princies a puppet show and reacts the way that he reacts, right? The story is all connected, even though it's over hundreds of hundreds of years. So you're like Aryan, how's it going? I think that's, I'm going to leave that to Chris. Aryan Brightflin made some good points. I think I'm going to leave that to Chris. Joe, did you think that the bearded gentleman seemed like he recognized Lairis? He kept looking at him. Yeah. That seems to me like worrying and like something that's probably going to be an issue. He gave, I will say this, photos don't exist, so people don't, you know, no one knows what color darenter is, like, you know, there's a lot that people don't know, but we gave Allison and Helena a lot of shit for their shitty costumes. And I will just say, Lairis, what attempt is he made to disguise himself? He got at least has like a hood up. I mean, Lairis is a bit recognizable and he's just sort of like out there looking the same as he always has. The garb is still too fine. So I will say, again, the Lairis thirst trap TikTok that someone sent me, though just of which was the God's bless you for being loyal to the One True King and it's show with a glow up and it shows Lairis in King's Landing versus Lairis on this season on the road. And it's true that like his hair is like less greasy. It's very full. Yeah. Yeah. He looks a bit better than he has the best season. Yeah. The first day, I got to say the same, you know, there are ways in which Aegon does have his hands covered in the, the, the, the piss for, for the Tanners and the, the shit for the farmers before long. I know. So getting on a Humboldt makes him more attractive to me than Aegon, I quite agree, you know, I quite agree. Menacing. Quite agree. Joe, on the, is this good for your disguise and for Romania and Cognito front? Where would you rank? Speaking Hi, Valerian and clear ear shot of the beast also like he knows more Valerian than he, like, when you got done by him in the council meeting, I was like, where did all this Larry come from? Granted, he only like spit out a couple of words here, but you're right. It wasn't totally embarrassing the way that it was studying while he was called a lesson. Make a war. He's alive. I know it. He's alive. He must be Sunfire. Wake up Sunfire. I'm here. I'm here. Then he speaks Hi, Valerian. Lairys is quite alarmed by this Gregor, oh, he's simple, Carlos. Can we see what Lairys says to Aegon after this? I am very sorry, but you must accept what is before you. Wake up. You wanted to see him. You've seen him. He's dead. Will. Will you stay rot with him? Will you get up and live? Devastating. I was waiting for that guy to be like, that's going to be a third penny. Honestly. Oh, man, I just see the moments we talked about this in talking thrones, but through the line across this episode of the moments where characters, different circumstances in each case, in some way, however well-intentioned or not, this counts something about-- Misunderstand. Yeah. Misunderstand between a writer. It's true. Yeah. Which goes all the way back to Alison when Amon's was young, but yeah, but like, Damon doesn't this episode. Exactly. Exactly. Right now, let's go home. And she's like, no, I am him. He is me. That's right. You know, we are bonded. Yeah. I thought that that Damon won because he should certainly know better was the most striking. The Slire's one is kind of out of-- you know, I need preservation, but still, Ormond obviously is just a complete targ bigot. So that one is-- Well, you get up and live, I think, is a really beautiful, potential sentiment misunderstanding what's going on. I will just say this. You'll love Slire's. I do. Malice looks much more decomposed than Sunfire does. That's all I'll say about that. They did chop off Malice's head and-- But the corpse itself is in a misstep paraded through the streets. Yeah. Maybe once part of the neck is exposed. There's just a lot of. Yeah. It was very upsetting to see-- to see Malice like that. and Gawain, Heron Hall, Alice. It's basically just a word cloud of art. - That's perfect questions. - Goats sounds. Goats sounds, go. - They write past the turf that Vigar scorched when instantly annihilating the very limited garrison left behind. Enter the castle with the men. We get some of our favorite things. Puddles, reflections, spooky sounds, we're back. - Heron Hall. - Heron Hall. Would you live here? Would you live in Heron Hall? - Yes. - It's like rains inside all the time. I love it. (laughing) - Absolutely, I would live in Heron Hall. - This is your version of Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallen Water. (laughing) - He was quite damp. I bet it reeks in there. I wouldn't need like a, or medically sealed room for my books, but other than that, you know, yes, I would live there. There would be a lot more cats, but fewer goats. But maybe some goats. Definitely more witches. - Alice, as I mentioned on Talk of Thrones, dressed in what I can only assume are like, I feel like she sort of like Cinderella, Bavity Boot, like, went into Simon Strong's closet and was just sort of like, these fine purple velvet robes are now gowns for me. - I mean, he was a fit Lord. - Yeah. - Drinking. - These golden chains are now mine. This is who I am now, queen of Heron Hall. - It's, it's work incredible. - 'Cause she looks great. - She said steward of sorts, which you think is her fucking with Kristen Kohl, in his mind, I love this interpretation. I think it's really good. And then she tells them Ranera's taking King's Landing and then he go, oh, he didn't know. And like, one of our listeners, Katie, compared this to Kevin Spacey's delivery at the end of seven. And I'm like, I wouldn't watch that clip. We're like, oh, he didn't know. - Yeah. - Spoilers for seven, but like, about Gwen and Paltrow. And I'm just like, oh, wow, that's iconic. Also, Meg O'Keefe, pal of the pod, dropped in our comment section, her theory for Where Vagar is, which is, she thinks, the Lady Vagar, is on the Isle of Faces being concealed by the Were Woods. - Oh, I love you. - 'Cause our question on touch thrones is like, where is Vagar? How does one conceal a dragon of that size? - Vagar could not possibly be bigger. (laughs) So, where is Vagar? - And so, I love that. Mysteriously veiled and mist and shadow on the Isle of Faces. I love the, Vagar gets to go to the Isle of Faces. I believe it, I buy it. - Vagar deserves it. It deserves a little Vagay. - Sure. A little armoured. - A little armoured awareness for treats. - Yeah. - And there's that moment later in the scene where one of Kristen and Gwen's men comes in. It's like, we did, we found a pretty big, pretty big dragon's nest, but abandoned. So, still no definitive answer for where Vagar is, which is fascinating. - On the no definitive answers for an Alice, just actively withholding some key intel here. They're like, where's Amin? We were supposed to meet Amin. We had a plan. We were gonna meet Amin. He left, he left, he left. Makes no mention of the fact that he was stabbed through the kidney by a strong son and then fell prone at her feet begging for her help. Doesn't bring that up. No, doesn't share that. - I'm sure she's telling the whole truth that nothing but the truth. - It was the zoom in on Gwen's face on the Raniera took King's Landing Front. He was like, I'm concerned. Like, my sister is there. - Yeah. - Her calls, oh no. - And Kristen's just like, oh, good, more death to March towards. - Maybe that March, he was run headlong towards it. - Well, Joe, I'm not sure if you know this, but one of Kristen's core tenants since the season two finale is to die would be kind of a relief. Which again, I just hope is on everybody's minds here. They're at Gwen and Kristen processing this information or withholding of information at the lovely dining table. - This table's inspired by that. - It is. - It's not, but let's say it is. - The real table. - Really felt. - Arthur, Simon, Strong, us. - Well, I felt Simon's absence here. - Because. - Yeah, where was the venison? - Where were the red currents? - Yeah. - Just existential dread? - No. - Not as chasing. - No. - Not as chasing. - No. - Not nearly as chasing. - No umami to the existential dread. - Exactly right. - Are you a, do you crave a tomato juice on an airplane on the umami front? - We've talked about this so many times. You have a, like, half to half one. - A V8. - Half to all spicy V8. And I just had to have those multiple times when we can't even sponsor us. (laughing) - Get in here. - It is like a sickness in you that you must. - Delicious. - Like a vampire. You must feed upon your V8, spicy V8 when you're airborne. This is not a thing I have. I like a water. - I'll have some water on the plane today. - Okay. - Yeah. - They think I got instead. - So, Allison's idea, which Ranera had some notes on, but then immediately put into action. - Spread far wild. - Seems to be effective. - Spread to Haired Hall, over to Rook's rest. - Yeah. - Making the rounds. - Well, wild stuff. I mean, pretty soon, Egon himself is gonna find out that this is the word. And he's not gonna react well to that. Gauin wants to join their host, Orman's and Kristen says no. Later, Orman will receive a letter from Gauin. Gauin and Kristen are not on the same page in this sequence. And sad. It's, well, there are our favorite bromance. - Our side of favorite. - It's almost like when you're like, "Hey, should we stop men from raping?" And Kristen's like, "Eh." Gauin's like, "You're free to do it." - Oh, yeah. - Okay. - You're free to talk to the men. - Yeah. - Kristen, still clad in his hand of the king necklace, his bling, is like, can't go back. Like, yeah, we get another signature speech from him here. - There's no way forward for me if Ranera is on the throne. - Right. - Right. - I offered her oranges and cinnamon. She said no. - Just to fuck off. - It's been shitty for me ever since. - Honestly. (laughing) - I haven't gotten over it. I made it in pulses. - Everyone else's problem. - Yeah, I mean, basically, it's a invoking his past. This is something that would be weaponized by others against him and he would feel embarrassed of, right? And insecurity. And now he is the one to tap into this and invoke it. Foot soldier, son of a steward. When Lord Dundarians favors ceased, my father died of a broken heart, a murder. - I just love sometimes these marriage events, not when he sounds like, at all. - He's very intense, Kristen. 'Cause he's so, he's so like- - How DJ Grassen Nova of him, you know what I mean? (laughing) - Exactly. - I missed task. - What a great show. - What a great show. - Maybe I'm with DJ Grassen Nova though. - Sad. - Sad, sad, sad. - I loved this. I thought this was really good. You know, he's talking about said nobles, play their games of thrones. 'Cause I love a game of thrones. The second week in a row where someone could have said game of thrones and didn't- - Hey, that's a game of thrones. - Listen, once again, if the prompt is, let's make season three of House of the Dragon more like Game of Thrones. They're like, let's just sort of allude to it in every single episode. - It's a great note. - Great note. - Let us attack it as the scorpion does the ox. Let us become rates. The fear is our standard. - Big lower lower in the sky here, I think. Ring rates. - I'm gonna send so normal, you put it on your Instagram post for our talk of thrones episode. - I don't know, this like casual Kristen poetry really gets me. - The promise that this is so exciting to me, because like, so in this stretch of Fire and Blood, there are a number of battles, which we anticipate we will see this season. We've seen one, we anticipate we will see more. But there are also several instances of this sort of like guerrilla warfare, which is sort of like people sniping at each other from, you know, the underbrush. It's not really Kristen Cole's role in the book, but I'm excited to see how this manifests. I think this is potentially very fun. - As much fun as like, - Sweet Sunfire. - Killing people is. - So like. - I'm gonna have a grin. (laughing) - Sweet darling is Kristen Cole, what a cutie puff. Can't wait to see him murder a bunch of people from the underbrush, but. - Well, he's like pretty excited about the idea of no dragons, right? Man to man, I can reclaim my purpose, the sense that I have meaning, the ability to have an impact on events and something in my own life, which he's been, he's been voicing in some capacity for episodes now, and he's right here like, I can put that into action. - Cry me a bit of a river, first of all. - No question. - No question. - No question. - It's very Orman Hightower, or it's just sort of like, we are the superior men. They just have the unfair advantage of dragons. - I'm superior to Aiman, where the fuck is he? To Ranera, you know, the woman who tilted me. I am the pure, I am the superior. They have this like, malformed advantage, you know, and I will rid myself of it. - Yeah, the use of pure here was, I'm having such a great time watching Kristen. I think we were meant to be like, "Oh, what?" - No, and he said that. - Well, I mean, Kristen, I love this character now in a way that I didn't before, but I guess this guy sucks. - Yeah, piece of garbage. I like the, like, that on that no home, you know, there's no possibility of no home, no return. The kind of combination for Kristen that felt so earned at this point of, on the one hand, that's the what places a man having a dragon world, like larger sense of existential terror. And then there's the very specific, there's no redemption for me and Ranera's realm, aspect of that. So, she didn't want me at my oranges and cinnamon and she certainly doesn't want me at my doing a coup. - You know. - There's no version of him she wants around. - Incredible stuff. - Alan and Ranera, they bond. We talked about this already when talking about the other Alan scene. Is there anything we haven't hit here that you wanna touch on, maybe what? Maybe what Ranera says about Viseris. - Well, there's something. - And there's some animating capacity to it once inspire and incense, don't you think? Do you think she. who's talking about Ormond's incents. (laughs) - It's entirely possible. - I really love this scene. I thought that's a really beautiful scene. Again, I think it's right that we continue to question the Viserys legacy having watched him be quite ineffective in a number of different ways and in many ways be his inclination for conflict, being the origin of this massive civil war and all of this. But, you know, we loved Patty and there are moments when Viserys was just sort of like a good guy and for Reneira to be like, I'm so frustrated by him, but now that I have to sit on his throne, I have more empathy for how fucking hard this job is. - Your perspective, yeah. - Yeah. - I thought that was great. And then Alan being there and being like, "Get some cats, bitch." And I'm like, "Get some cats, get no better." - Thanks for showing me your Legos, a Lego set of old Valeria that has become a rat's nest. Is there a commentary there about the rot inside of the Targaryen inheritance? Interesting to think about. Do you think with that new perspective, Reneira will ever get up at a family dinner and say, "Oh, this old man who loves you so dearly." I do miss Patty, I really do. A reminder to him, I think that even great dynasties fall. This the number of times that the show is invoking the doom of Valeria as a parallel, which was coming to me in 2030. I do think that's a show they should do. For various reasons. - This week on the watch, Chris is fewer Targaryens on the Game of Thrones and you're like more. - Cataclysm, let's go take me to the 14 Flames. This is gonna be a different place on a different moment in time. That would be nice. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant. It's fabled empire vanish in a day. The lands of the long summer scorched and drowned and blighted. That's Tyrion in the text. Then of course we have the delightful, shared poem recitation in the show in season five, sailing into the doom from Jora and Tyrion. I had a city of a thousand years and all that men had learned. The doom consumed it all alike and neither of them turned. So this idea that Viserys has been citing since literally episode one this warning. - I think Dan Weiss with that poem, which I was like. - So good. - Yeah, that poem is so, so, so good. - Let's give them shit when they forget about the Iron Fleet, but let's remember. - The flowers when they just like wrote beautiful poetry. - Game of Thrones used to be great. - That seems, oh my God. Unfortunately they're sailing towards Tyrion being stuck at a terrible plot line. But before he gets there, he sees a dragon. There's some stone men. - Number one Jora got gray skill. - Spoiler and they just scraped it off. - They cut it off? - It's a cut from going into the gray scale to the hop-up. - To the high. - To the high, is an all-timer. - But Sam is like, I've studied the text and I figured out. He was kind of scraping off. - He scraped it off. - Shrene's like, good to know. (laughing) - He just got to cut the crust off, it's fine. - Oh my God, cut the crust off, crust. - Genuinely, Viserys. - Oh man, incredible stuff. Back to Egon and Lyris, they've reached Rook's Rest. Egon is holding one of Sunfire's scales. - Sweet. - Creep. - Sunfire. (laughing) - Could also be a practical weapon, perhaps. - Oh, weapon. 'Cause I was wondering if you meant it was value. I feel like if the golden scales were valuable, 'cause how much would one spend for that? But those shitheads around the carcass would have- - They're mismanaging their business. - Yeah, I'll say. - They're mismanaging the business, 'cause those scales should be worth a lot. - Yeah. - Did you think of Duncan and Ray when we watched the youngsters raiding corpses? - I did, actually. - Yeah, that was nice. - I did. - It wasn't nice. (laughing) It's always nice from the cost to connect these stories. But thinking about, well, so that's the horrible aftermath of Rook's Rest, scorched bodies, muddy bodies, decomposing bodies, all those sorts of like that. And thinking about Christian Colt, the aftermath of the battles that we keep sort of like writing through. - Yeah, and also just with this is where we walk in and we see the rotting melee scorbs, this kind of, like, targ's brought low clarity for egg on this thing. He has to confront and can't deny. - Important. - How do you think Ormond would fare at this camp at Rook's Rest? - Rotting dragon body, piss and shit everywhere. - Literally everywhere. - All over the boots. I mean, not well, obviously. You know, when Tom was talking about the shit cover boots and he said human feces. - Yeah. - 'Cause I assumed it was like horse or something like that. You'd think that was like Janus was stomping around and human shit. - Very tough. - Yeah. - Well, they never tell you how they all shit themselves when they die. So if they're walking through this corpse field, I mean, it's some tire-like plausible. - Oh my god. - That was so fucking gnarly. - Do you think dragons, like, release their bowels when they die? - I mean, it's a great, it's like one for the philosophers, but also frankly, a practical question that they should consider at some point. Something you think about. You know what the Ormond for? I don't understand actually like how he is with an army of 15,000, if he's this sensitive to, he has his own silk intent. - I mean, he's like, keep them over there. - Yeah, he's hitting the snows, but like. - Oh, the snuff. - It just seems like it should be a unbearable for him. Which I guess it is. He's recoiled in horror, multiple nights. Already there are just four episodes of screen time. You guys need three episodes for him, I think. Laires is like, this garrison stopped talking about it. They all have their own agenda. You can't rely on the garrison, they're cold left behind. He appeals to the little gianos. That'll kind of like wanna be on the side of this. - Tung, Tung. - Tung, Tung. - Tung, Tung is here. - This is a book character, so this is exciting. And this is where Laires is like, I have knowledge of herbs and I can read. And we had the same reaction, which was, let's fuck. - Hot. - Hot. - This is so good. - You're illiterate and you know herb lore. - I know. - You're basically a witch. I'm into it. - They were all laughing and I was like, this is just, this is just. - Hot as fuck. It got him out of piss and shit, Dutie. - Sure did. - Yeah. - They got me like, I can read too. I can read too. - Too little too late. Very, very tough. - Turmoil in Tumble Tim, Dut, Dut, Dut. - Cat. Returns home to Leo's with supplies, finds the soldiers, making Mary talking about how things were better, they're gonna be better here than they were in Honeyhold, Honeyhold, Joanna. - Listen. Lord Arman didn't cake walk up the mandor. Like he didn't just walk up the mandor with all these soldiers by his side. He had to like encounter some resistance upon his journey. - Yes. - Who's the hero of that resistance, do you ask? I say, it's Alan Beesbury. Alan Beesbury pissed off about what happened to Lyman Beesbury. - That's right. - He's grand, he should be. - Yeah, as he should be. - Says, fuck you, Greens. Where is Lyman Beesbury? Dead, the first casualty in the Dance of Dragons, if you recall, death by small ball. How can I forget? - Quote. Lord Arman, only to find himself set upon by Sir Alan Beesbury and Lauren Alan Tarley. Shout out to Tarley. - That's right. - And while Tarley, you're still with us. Though commanding far fewer men, the two Alan's harassed him day and night, raiding his camps, murdering his scouts, setting fires in his line of marches. What I mean by a guerrilla warfare exists elsewhere. So, right. Didn't go all the way well for the Alan's. Unfortunately, Alan Tarley and Beesbury, but they put up a fight. So, I wear this honeycomb earring in honor of House Beesbury. - Well, the insults against House Beesbury in the. - Never cease. - Television universe, never cease. - Beesbury, spin off when? Rest in Bees. (laughing) - I mean, literally. - I'm giving that to you. - Yeah, rest in Bees. - Still not over that we didn't get more Bees and then the same kid goes. - Buzz, Buzz, bitches. - That must have been amazing. - Like at a Beesbury spin off. - I would like House Beesbury to heavily involved in a future Dunkin' Egg season. We talked about this potential Beesbury involvement like years ago. - Way more than made sense. - Yeah. - And Barry is trailer bot. - After we were like away. - Wait is Alan Beesbury? What are the Alan's showing us? - Oh my god, dammit. (laughing) - But frankly, if we hadn't done it, then who would have ever given them the shine in the honor they deserve? - My goodness. - Yeah, the battle of the honey wine, which is something that happens to the book that doesn't happen here. - Sad. - Sad. - We'll talk about that a little bit later, but like, yeah. So Orman's forces have like encountered some resistance up the mandor. And as they made the way through the reach and they either sort of like decimated Team Black or absorbed them in, you know, he's like great jerk ins for everyone, join the team, you know, here we are. So apparently Garrick was, you know, doing a rape or two in Honeyholt. - I have no doubt to hear it. - I have no doubt. Garrick tells Kat needs to inspect the goods, disgusting. Every single person, both in this scene of television and watching at home knows what is about to happen. Everybody tenses in the room. - Yeah. - Send the girl out the way that, you know, Darren Lane will be like, get out. - That's right, that's right. Another attempt to reappear. Garrick then breaks Leo's wife's arm. Leo gets involved. This is one of the many moments [BLANK_AUDIO] And this episode that brought Jora's famous season three line to mind, "Beast in Every Man," right? Have you ever seen a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands? I was in King's Landing during the sack, Calisi. You know what I saw? Butchery, babies, children, old men, more women raped than you can count. There's a beast in every man. And it stirs when you put a sword in his hand. Given the number of times that a Gawain and Christian conversation has centered on the idea of becoming beast before the end, like this is something that the show is obviously centering. And to your point from earlier, the atrocity of war, the horrors of war are manifesting in a number of different respects here. Ormond in Tumble Tins saying, "I will, my men will behave and I will protect you," and then going through the theater of judgment after learning about this. - Yes, theater. - All of the different degrees of horror here are real. - Very tough. Theater, kid, energy. - That it really is. - Yeah. - Yeah. - When he fixes his hair after his hand tried. - That's a great. - That's just actually an incredible moment. - James Jordan's killing it. - Crushing. - Killing it. Hugh implores for Nairah to send him to Tumble Tins. We transitioned directly from that threat to Hugh's wife into a moment with Hugh. He comes in and he says to her Nairah, who's studying the map, doesn't have yours. Has to make do with the role in white blood there. - Shabby. - Buzzing in the ears back from episode three. Here again in a couple of moments. - Crating those ones. - Worrying. Think she's here as you noted earlier for her house. She's like, do you think the buzzing in her head is the ghost of Alan B's burying? Like, where's my role in this show? - Justice for the lemon. - Maybe. Could be. He's like, no, that's not why I'm here, actually. I heard you were sending Ulf to Tumble Tins. - Tumble Tins. - Now, Nairah has a very reasonable response to this, which is, - Yeah, you told me your wife's there. Ulf has no stake in it. Yeah. You managed just to spin this. And convinced, Nairah, he says, that's why you should send me. I'm not going to tire of keeping watch. - Yeah, Nairah's like, went up both. And you know what? I think it should be more than just a two dragon rotation. 'Cause like, the idea that it was ever just supposed to be Ulf sitting on that dragon day and night, what are we talking about? So like, can it just be like a different dragon a day? You have a lot, I know. - Right. - That some of our other dragons are out. - Off-lookin. - Looking for vagars. - Like, for sheep to be like, she's got a lot of dragons. - Yeah. - She wants to take a turn on Syracuse. - On Syracuse. - Yeah, I mean, to draw on here, I know the dragon. - The dragon path gets thin quickly when you start to divide the ranks to think about all of these different tasks. I will not tire of watching when one I love is below. She says, "Renira, sorry." You guys keep an eye on the town. And each other. And then we cut to Ulf, who, as we mentioned, cannot read clearly, 'cause the graffiti is here. And he's like, here's somebody mentioned that it's disgusting, and means in, and then, hopefully, another member of King's Landing is like-- - But just shout out Tom Bennett, who just, like, gives such a great performance of, like, pretending he knows what it says, while also eagerly listening to find out what it says. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, I mean, he's just, like, sensational sensational. - Well, it's been for a minute one, but just, in this episode, in particular, - We need backers with the strong sigil right next to it. - Three strong boys. (laughing) - Stop. And, like, you know, we, this is crazy, this is crazy to me because it's like, I don't know who's, you know, got the graffiti paint out there in, in flea bottom, but, like, - That's a level of specificity in the graffiti. - That's strong sigil. - Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's obviously, it does not say, well, it was Ranero, and she learns about it. It also makes this thing back, I think, to that, argument between Ranero and Corlus last episode, because the way that Ranero handled her relationship with Corlus and his expectations and desires there, we still have notes. - But. - Not wrong. - Not wrong to be worried about, you know, this thing has this, this, it feels directly related. - It's like plagued her. - Yeah. - And she knew it would continue to. - And she got to worry about Jeff. - Sweet Jeff. - Sweet Jeff. - And then it also goes to the tavern. - He goes to the bar. - I love this scene because, like, his friends are like, oh my god, you're a big rich dragon right now. Look at your velvets and like drinks for everyone. And I was like, oh, it's not what I meant. - Yeah. - Drinks for everyone. - But I really, I love that sequence because it's like, Ulf was like, oh yeah, like, where's my castle, right? Where are my riches? And Reneer was like, well, pay you when we can pay you. So like, maybe that was all of his money, you know what I mean? He's like, but he cannot admit to them that he's not as rich as, you know, he's pretending to be. He's like, oh, I'm a big important dragon writer now. They're like, great, you might drink for everyone. And he's like, yeah, definitely. I am swimming in money for sure. - Right. - Also, did you see that Jesus' dog was there? - I still am not over. - Hashtag Jesus' dog lives. - I'm not over that dog getting kicked. That was so painful and horrible. - But live it up in the pub. - Okay. - Just being cuddled by-- - A lot of sweeps. - Scraps in there, maybe. - Sugar puff. Jesus' dog. (laughing) Never flew into battle, anyway. (laughing) (laughing) - Oh man. - He is scrumptious, darling, Jesus' dog. - I do love that dog. - Sweet poppy. - Sweet poppy. - Kat's family appeal stormant, so. - As you know, did already in plain sight. - Daily. - Of many a sublime daylight into a walker, that too. - Ormon is clocking. - People of Tumbleton are seeing this. They're listening. - It's a kind of a-- - It's a kind of a awareness that Reneira could have used intercom conversation with Corolley's when, you know, I mean, again, I think Corolley's was the sort of impregnant actor inside of that conversation. But if she had been like, "Hey, quick pause, "let's retire to my chambers, that's his conversation," you know what I mean? Like, because there are people right over there. She did not know he was gonna scream, "Bastard!" - Right. - "Let's go to the small council chamber "and just leave the door open." (laughing) I'm sure no one will listen. - Nice, it's wrong with everyone. - But yeah, but Ormon, on the other hand, is just sort of like, "Oh, time was a theater." - Exactly. - You're listening and so I will tell them that this is wrong and not to be tolerated and the gilding and the arm breaking and we will protect you. I'm gonna have a maester 10 to your wounds before bringing you in to have Darren kill you, Leo. - We do find out that Leo is a Smith. - That's right. - So you think Kat's like, "Oh, my brother's a Smith, "all Mary, a Smith," sort of thing. It's entirely possible, Kat, yeah. And he's like, "But my Smithing business "is not going well." And now you broke my Baker wife's arm. Terrible, sucks. Terrible. Reneera, consult a while on the faith. This was a fascinating scene. I really liked this. This is I'm into these two together. Set that or a while on the. So I need all the information about correspondence between Ormon and the Red Keep Ravens' troll mission, right? And then after that, asks, "How much control do the high towers have over the faith?" And it's very clear that this confrontation and interaction that became a tense confrontation with high septum ballman, last week in the throne room, last episode in the throne room, has Reneera concerned. And it is something that Reneera is taking seriously his warning, right? Or while notes the old town ties, endowing the starry seps, the centrality of the seven to the high tower identity, which we, of course, have talked about for three seasons now, of covering the show. But control? No. And he makes a dragon comp in terms of the centrality to the identity, which I thought was just really interesting in terms of like respective core aspects for the Targaryens, the dragons, the high towers, the faith. But also what they perceive is like a source of strength, right? Well, dragons have always been a metaphor for power inside of George R. Martin's writing, right? And so like this idea of like what are other sort of, what. Sources of power that are used as cudgles, and if you think about like the faith militant and stuff like that is a more overt example. But obviously like the church in our world and across time and space has been used as, you know, a way to manipulate and, you know, some good things as well. But also historically, politically, also some very negative things or just a way to hold onto your power, tap into this sort of like, 'cause what is the core of faith is like fear, you know? In terms of like why do you look for answers, religious answers? Why do you look for a god as sort of like that? It's just like fear and you're looking for comfort, you're looking for guidance, you're looking for answers. Like my existence, my existence is upsetting. Things happen, what are the answers? How can I find comfort? How can I find guidance? And there are so many bad actors throughout history who have used that vulnerability inside of people to be like, and now I control you, you know? And so that idea of like dragons' power and the faith is power and the targ's, this is a Targaryen civil war, but it's also like a targ-high tower civil war. And so like, I also think it's interesting when you have someone like Ranera who's talking about the gods in a way that she seems like a true believer in the gods, right? She's like, as you mentioned earlier, the gods will rightly sort of smack me down if I do this that or the other thing. And then for Orman to be such a tender, you know, this. Yeah. I think those contrasts are really interesting. But yeah, these two examples, these two metaphors for power. - Yeah. - And how are they wielded by these two teams? - And two in this case that aren't conflict with each other. Like hearing high septum ballman last week said, in a very orman desk capacity, talking a lot of shit about drag isn't the Targaryens. There's a tension there. They're at odds with each other. - There's another thing I want to say about Orwell and his centrality in this episode, which I thought I think is interesting, like his increasing centrality inside of this show, is that he is like one of the defective sources in fire and blood, right? We must be grateful to Grandmaster Monk and for it was his true telling based in large part on the account of Grandmaster Orwell, et cetera, et cetera. So Orwell as a source inside of this story that George Orwell Martin is written so Orwell as witness to so much is essential. - Absolutely. - I liked that she revealed this to the high septum where she used to annoy me aspect to Orwell because on the one hand, he's on the spot council at this point, the information is sort of something that he needs to possess. They have to have a sense of the board, right? The board played the board before them. But also there's a vulnerable aspect to that and it shows not only I think a kind of desperation to have anybody who she can talk to when we lie upon outside of just Missaria and her prison or Allison, right? But also maybe like I see something here that feels like a little umber we could tend, right? That there's the capacity here for a trust that I can nurture that I need to do a murderer. - I could maybe be a board if you needed it. - Great stuff, they're bonding. Nice to see a friendship forge in real time here. What did you actually make of that question that he asked her that you mentioned earlier? Like does it matter? They want to know that you can't see your coronation. Does it matter? Like do you think he's right that it doesn't matter? - I think it's possible that there's a path forward where it doesn't matter. I'm not saying that like it doesn't matter at all but I think Reneer is letting it matter more than it should. If she's just sort of like I am Reneera, I am the queen. I decide what matters. I decide what carries the most important, you know? But I understand why again, like she's journey through life being told that like a woman can's at the Iron Throne and all these other things. So she feels like she needs all these other things to sort of bolster her up and justify her claim and all these other things that she's talked about that she alone is not enough, that she needs the faith to annoy her, that she needs, you know, Aegon's head on a spike. She needs all these other things. So it's just sort of like Reneera, you have so many dragons. - I know. - It is so fascinating because like being anointed wouldn't stop any challenges, you know? But and Aegon, that like, you know, all the ever-civil of legitimacy belongs to him idea that we talked about so much at the end of season one and to season two. Where'd that get Aegon? - Ultimately. - Right. But not having it makes something feel more tenuous, even though having it doesn't make it stronger. It's this fascinating, like, this kind of need to latch on to anything that feels like it gives you a stronger foothold, even though no foothold in this moment in time for these characters can be anything, but like a, a, a porch that potentially crumbles. But, you know, it is that double standard of like again, going back to the great council's decision, the great council decides Viserra should rule. And everyone's like, okay, Viserra's is king. If the great council had decided that Reneie should rule. - No, of course. - It would have been a much harder road for her. It's not just like, oh, the great council said so. It's like, the great council said so. Your woman like, prove it, you know? So. - It's different. - Yeah. - Reneera has an entire lifetime of proofs. - Different for girls. - All, when Viserra seemed to err, all of those lords sat there in the thorn room and pledged. - Did it fucking matter? Or is the dance of the dragon's happening right now? - Was it a crime game? - They make you fucking swear in swear. So yeah, Reneera has every reason to believe that anyone will take any excuse to do that to challenge. Damon. Up in the veil. Back in his favorite murder, Dan. And we're back in our favorite milk, Dan. Shout out lies on Sweet Robin now and always. What do you think is more top of mind for folks in the veil with Damon back, the murder of his former wife or his commentary on men in the veil, fucking sheep because the women are so ugly. - When do you think people are more focused on? - I think people remember the murder more than they remember because Damon has had so many cutting things and he's really only murdered one wife. So far. That sounds boilerass, just a joke. That's a joke. - Oh man. Damon and Jane, they're both pretty dissatisfied with the state of his partnership so far. This is so entertaining. - This is really fun. - Really great. - And again, I loved hearing Claire talk about how do I, how do I make this work with Damon down here and her up there and I love the way that Matt Swift was leaning on the moon door sort of like rim thing and I thought it was really well done. Jane is a political animal. - Yeah. - I like her. - Jane's tough. - She's a candy operator. - This is like a character. You know, one of our listeners made this point but like Jane Erin ruling in the veil and Joanna Lannister being the de facto ruler of her and Cassley Rock. Like there are these women examples of Sabah the Frey, the twins, like there are these examples of women ruling in Westeros and like how do they operate in a way that it works in the way that it's not working for Reneira and King's Landing. - Yeah. - And what will people tolerate in a realm but not on the island? - For sure. - But yeah, like we, you know, that was one of the reasons in addition to the family ties that Jane supported but it's like the Lannisters, their team green. - But Jane all alone there with just her dogs and she's just like not really that intimidated by Damon, like fucking wrote a horse. - Yeah. - A horse towards sheep's dealer. - A couple of episodes ago, was baller. - Baller, baller. Damon, I just wanna say, I know he was there to get money. That's the mission, however. - I think that you should say, you pledged us, you didn't send your swords, - Not wearable. - It's expensive business. We demand payment, not, oh hi, it's our treachery. We're do, we are easily duped and we're doleds and we like, the coffers are empty. We were not prepared for that. - Damon just took the land. - Damon just took the wrong kid home. Like Damon, not the clever one in the room, torn manderly, absolutely not. Also, so on talk to the thrones, I was talking about how like, I thought the reports from her various vassals was just seeing, citing caraxies fly across the veil, but my understanding now is that Damon was there to collect, he collected money from other houses as well. Because it says, like later when he gets back in the small council, they're like, what did Damon get from the other houses? So like, he wasn't just, like, the veil was the last stop. So like, at that point, sure he knew that he was out there with his tin cup, begging for coin. - And yet, Missouri later is still basically like, a small amount of coin, small dick, at the small council meeting. - Did she say that? - I think it essence, yes, I think it essence, yes. Yeah, the beggar with a tin cup line, I don't think Damon is a character who's gonna be content for long to be sent on missions where people, where he has to stand there and have people call him a beggar with a tin cup. - Nope, once again. - No, not really Damon's vassal. - Once again, Damon, not my diplomat, that I'm sending around. - Where's Damon? - I understand that Jones is dead. - But, stuff, is there someone, is there literally anyone else we can send? - I mean, is there literally anyone else we can send? - Bay live, that would do a better job. - Bill would be great. - I liked when Damon was kind of like, a little carrot, a little stick. The sooner you give me the money, the sooner I'm gone, carrot, but also the stick of like, you don't want me around. You don't wanna fuck with me. - Nice. - Not belong. - Nice realm here. Be a real shame if something happened to it. (laughs) My long neck boy is parked right outside. - Well, speaking of caraxies, it's time for Damon to discover Reina's secret. - This was just an incredible, genuinely incredible grade scene and stretch. Damon is affixing the coin to caraxies' saddle and the bloodworm screeches and takes off. And we talked about this on Talk The Thrones with the deliciousness of, as Damon is about to say like, while dragon, you can't control him, Damon, Targaryen, feeble warrior, long time, very experienced dragon rider, also being in a situation where his dragon is like, and he's literally shouting in high valarians, serve me, shouting like a cuck into the wind. And caraxies is just like, I'm gonna do what I want. - So when Damon's like a cuck into the wind, (laughs) - Talk? - I'm sorry, really if I could talk. - Serve me, but serve me is what, obey me, serve me is what, Damon said, what Reina said. - Yeah. - And Damon was still at that point relatively, relatively speaking, on-season. On-Vegar. - Yeah, on-Vegar is just like a like, caraxies and Damon have been together a lot longer. - Yeah. - It's been a minute for Reina and sheepy when they head into the call it, literally a minute. (laughs) Just one, but yeah, it cracks. So the drag and control, the hubris of control here, this again. - Do you think caraxies was like most, like, hey Damon, you wanna see this? Most about sheepsealer or most about Reina. Like, hey, one of your bloodline is over there in that cave. Do you wanna know about it? - All the way above. - Sweet, sweet caraxies, (laughs) sweet blood worm. Darling caraxies. - Darling, sure. - Oh my god. - Caraxies. - I really, really love this. It was interesting to hear them talk about on House the Dragon spilt to their filming and wills. They have this gorgeous like quarry, but still they had to build the actual mouth of the cave that they needed because dragons are gigantic. - Yeah. - It was kind of fascinating. I love that shot of the fire. - Sheepsealer's fire walking out. - Yeah, bathing Reina enough in the flames. Walks toward her father. who is astounded and dismayed and beside himself in a way that we are very unaccustomed to seeing from Damon. - Very frustrating. - Damon Targaryen flustered. - Not something we've seen a lot of. - Flabbergast, you know. - I found this incredibly compelling. - Yeah. - I loved this. - This was great. - In general, Joe, Damon as dad, it's good and we should have more of it. I mean, the, I made me think back to that like the cutscene that we saw and maybe the inside the episode for House of Dragons build or something back in season one on Pentos after Lena's death. That's the shot of him like hugging the girls. We're like, where was this in the actual episode? - I mean, just like have literally not like, we barely seen, when, when, when Reina's like, bail is your favorite, I'm like, kinda, I mean, just like reading to her and you're a dragon rider. - One scene. (laughing) - One scene. - Yeah. - So I don't, I don't, I don't discount her feelings, but like, he's been a pretty crap father to everyone including his blonde babies and including his stepdad to Jason, all this sort of stuff like that, like he's just, that's, I think it's, it's fun to watch Damon as a father but I just don't think we got, yeah. - And mostly what this scene relies upon is the absence of any impact on Reina's life or acknowledgement of Reina. And that is ultimately effective here but in terms of the comp then, you're right with the other kids. I thought it was interesting when he's like, you were supposed to be with the other kids. Oh my God, that he was definitely thinking. That's the line of prophecy. - Oh no, who's watching the little blonde babies? - Who is that? - Oh man. - Yeah. She says he is mine, he is a part of me. He's like, you know, well, leave a little blah. She's like, I was trying to help Jason. He's like, fuck, he killed Jason. - I know. - Socks, what are we gonna do with Reina era? Oh my God. - That reaction was so good for me. - I mean, he didn't really care about Jason but he does care, he knows Reina care is about Jason. So all of that is happening. And I thought this email we got from our listener, Alex is really interesting. He's talking about the season one conversation between Corleys and Damon, when they're talking about being the realm's second sons, not literally in Corleys' case, but just sort of like this idea of like, their worth is not given, but must be made. And how much this is Reina's own feeling, like that she is the second daughter of the second son and that she doesn't have a direct end. So she used to make her own, you know, very much the amen parallel, of course. - Yes. - But I love this part of Alex's email, the tragedy of Reina being that she was abandoned by two men, father and grandfather, which had easily identified with her feelings, but were too busy or not present to ever consider her is very compelling. And I feel it in a way justifies the adaptive change of her claiming sheep's sealer and replacing the book character nettles within this show. - And I agree. - Yeah, I mean, I think that's why both in this scene, the pain, the turmoil that we're seeing in Damon, realizing what this means for his kid. And then ultimately, of course, the choice he makes to have Reina, to choose Reina to lie to her. - Kill it there. - It's a choice as a father that we have, I agree with you, not seen enough of, but it's a winning thing even though it's very worrying, of course, in terms of the. - I'm gonna say something about nettles, and I'm gonna ask you whether or not you think it's okay to like leave in that episode. - Okay. - Which is like in the book, because they're not doing the nettles storyline in the book, but in the book, there's this question of like, what is Damon to nettles, right? Is she his daughter or is she his lover, right? That's a question left up to the history side. - Right. - The more cuddly version of Damon is that it's his daughter, right? Not just that he like saw a hot young dragon writer and is like, fuck it, he's like, this is my daughter, so I'm gonna, you know, protect her from Reina era. That's the cuddlier version of Damon, and I have seen some critiques from people who don't like this nettle swap that they're like. - Forever the show is choosing to find the cuddlier version of Damon in like, not forever, but like in some of these instances, like air for a day, or like, did he really kill his first wife or did her horse just get spooked? Like all these things that like, some of the worst things that Damon did, the show is like, but what if it wasn't that bad? And so like, this is just another, like when we watch Damon protect Reina, we're like, oh, Damon is a father, Damon flustered this softened him, but like, is it giving Damon too much of a soft landing when book Damon is a much more of a bastard's character? I don't think you can watch Damon in the show and say like, this guy isn't a bastard in many different ways, but like I do remember that from early seasons, people are like, why is there all these like shortcuts and excuses for Damon in some of his worst moments? - Yeah, it's funny, like I feel like my read on early, my list may vary with this. I think that's especially true in an adaptation like this, where there's a lot of open to interpretation and relationship to the character on the first place. My relationship to show Damon was actually quite a bit, like was the other side, was the opposite, that the show went out of its way often, Damon choking Reina at the end of season one, for example, to say like, this guy's a piece of shit actually. And so I find myself, because I think as a, I would have, I heading into House of the Dragon, what have said, Damon is my favorite character, I'm the character I'm most excited to spend time with. - Look at the compelling character. - Yeah, compelling. Not like I root for this guy, he's lovely, but like what a fascinating figure. And so I think the moral ambiguity of Damon and the outright sometimes atrocities that he has committed, the horrors and the guilt and the shame, not everybody had the patience for him to be at Harren Hall for as many episodes as he was, and I understood that even though I think we both really liked it, but I think that was rooted in a desire for Damon to try to exercise these demons that have plagued him. So I'm in the other, I understand why people feel that way, certainly, but I'm in the other camp with it where I actually find myself like, bold over by gratitude almost, like, 'cause we've had lots of moments of charm from Damon, but still paired with a kind of cold calculus, and there's a calculus here too, no question, both in the decision he makes with the Goethearder, and then the decision he makes with Ranera, but I find myself like thinking here about the, something is awoken in Damon here that feels paramount to him, and like he cannot bring himself, he finds himself in a state of hypocrisy, which is interesting, right? Saying, what did we hear him say to Ranera last episode about Fisera's renounce to his dragon? That was the term he used, and he is telling Ranera here to do exactly that, renounce your dragon. - Dish, you're silly. - He's totally out of sorts, he's flustered, he's contradicting his own kind of core beliefs, right? - Core philosophy. - Because he's so scared for her. Thinking of like the apparition, the vision of ghostly Lena at Heron Holland season two, saying like, have you looked after our girls, which is not a thing that he has ever done, and being confronted with the undeniable threat to his kid, there, I just think I like this nettles, ran a nettles swap personally, I'm not opposed to it, and I wasn't, I don't remember being mad about those other sort of like Damon moments that people sort of point to, but I do think there's like a little bit of connective tissue missing between that Lena- - I agree with that. - Ghosty, for example, and him being so backfooted about Rana here, I would have liked one more scene with Rana and Bella, maybe that cutscene from season one or something else, which sets me up for, he would care so much about her in this moment when he has shown no indication. - I don't dispute or challenge that at all. - Yeah, I agree with that. I just think Damon is still ultimately making a complicated choice here. So I didn't come out of this like cuddly Damon, I came out of this as complicated Damon. - He has some humanity. - Never. - I mean, going and immediately roasting the goat herder and then just lying to my mirror. - I loved it. I love that the button of the scene of him being flustered is him giving the most evil I'm going to kill that guy. - Yeah, exactly. - We're off a cliff. - Yeah, I agree, and I think it's, I think that complication inside of him, the conflict inside the human heart, all right, it's the only thing worth writing about. - White good. I do think, I think I don't 1,000% by how flustered he is in this reign of moment, you know? - Yeah, it is interesting to parse that. And I think, well, let's Carlos, let's see this clip and then talk about maybe what is driving his, the extent of his emotional reaction here for another beat. - Come back with me there to King's Landing. - No. Well, speak to her together, we will tell her it was a mistake. - How can I ever stand before her again after what I have done? No, I can never return. I will remain here alone and in exile, that is my parents. - She will hunt you down, is hunting now? - So I think there is, part of what is going through his mind is about Raina. A lot of it I think is about Rainera and just in General Damon, receiving the prophecy, working through his Heron Hall therapy with the seris, with his own mother, with Lena, everything that transpired there for him was about the vision that he saw when he touched the where, what all of it was about the Targaryen line and family. So there's something like, I don't know if I viewed this as much as like, oh my God, my paternal instinct has awoken it last completely. I think that's there. And I agree with you that more building toward that helps us maybe accept that more fully. But a little bit of our children will rule it for, you know, an entire day and a day, whatever. Like he's thinking about their dynasty. This is a civil war and then civil war inside of their family. Faction, I think he's overwhelmed by how destabilizing this could be for everything that he's trying to achieve and that they're trying to achieve. I think that's that play too, right? But I definitely think so. most people's interpretation of the scene is like, "Oh, Damon cares about his daughter." - That's why, that is the primary thing, I think. But I don't know. It's like, what should he do? Say, okay, Vernier, I can kill. - It's just a lot of bad, it's just a lot of bad dad too late stuff from Corley's being like, "Allen, you get to sit on my chair, bad dad too late." And Damon being like, "Being like my chair." - Yeah, I mean. - And Rain is like, bad dad too late. Bye. - And I loved hearing Raina challenge him that way. - Yeah, for sure. Because for sure, I just, I don't know. I don't dislike this scene. I just need to think about it more, I think. - Yeah, was it earned enough? I think it's a completely fair question. Raina, the unfortunate, I quite liked both in terms of just calling Damon out and not being present enough for her and the way that she felt so on the outside of the Targaryen legacy. But also just like the idea of, you know, the Megor return, or nearer the cruel like, we think about these, the blue queen, the silver king, yeah. And like when that can be, when the language of legacy and identity is used to actually show, that something is not working that you haven't achieved the thing that you wanted to, that people have made you feel on the outside. I always like when the show does that. Time for Orman's Meltdown. He's making a custom blend. What do you think he's putting into this? Do you think he mixes up the scent? You know, you asked at the beginning of the season what would we put in ours? How often is he making a kind of custom blend? - I feel like he would give. - Orman, we're gonna live right now. He'd have a real doterra problem. Do you know about doterra? I would like these essential oil blends that you could, like I have friends who are like deep in the doterra cult. - I see. - I have a, like a personal preference for a doterra blend. It's like a very like orange, cinamony, spicy thing, a very crisp and cool sort of special. - I just got a simmer pot and I got cinnamon sticks. - Uh-huh. - And I'll extract oranges and a couple other spices to try to put in it. - Nice. - I love that diffuser lifestyle, personally. Not the like read diffuser, but this sort of like steam diffuser thing. Anyway, big fan. What is Orman? I mean, that looks like paprika, to be honest with you, but that does not seem like it would offer up some very delicious smell. So like maybe some mace, some clothes. - Clothes would be nice. - Star anise. - Do I know? - Delightful. - You know something I think about? - Maybe just changes it based on the mood. The mood's always the same with this guy. It's always bad. It's always bad. - It seems bad. When we mentioned like sort of what is gonna happen with Orman and his smell thing? - Yeah. - Our listener, Mikhail Rodin, to say, "I just need you to know that your talks of thrones "common about dropping drag and shit on Old Town "was in my feed, followed by the ad break "which began for adults with Crohn's disease "or ulcerative colitis symptoms. "Every choice matters." So that's what we call an immigration. - We did that. - There you go. Incredible. Bull John enters, presents Gawain's letter and this is when Orman finds out that even if he are not coming, in fact, he reacts very well. And Darren clocks while Orman is still reading what is gonna happen. So his power of observation, but also, of course, what this tells us. - This is probably about his experience with Orman. - So this is like a benign comp. This is obviously very disturbing sequence, but it reminded me of, you know what Mary Poppins when they're like quite used to the cannons going off and everything in their house and they're just sort of like places and they carry on their conversation while they stand in place to like hold this bus or hold the piano or hold this. They like, they know where to go when this routine explosion is gonna happen inside of the bank's household in Mary Poppins. So like, again, that's like a cutesier version of this horrible temper. But like the way that that both John and Orman and Darren like take a step back and then John just goes to like put the chair back in place. This just sort of like their job is to pretend this didn't happen and put it all back when it's over. I don't know, replace the table so that it doesn't even have to see, you know, the damage that he caused. Like their job is to keep everything right where it was because we don't acknowledge that these explosions happen. They just happen and we put it all back and keep going from there, you know? - Ooh, man. Ooh. - It's just little, like the little detail of John just like putting the chair back. I thought it was such a good moment. And then again, the incredible performance from Darren of just sort of like the body language. - Wanting to shield this innocent. Yeah. From being in the blast rate of the radius of this was obviously very impactful. I thought the lingering, you mentioned the kind of tears in the eyes, the lingering shot on Darren in the face of this. And the fact that even though that rhythm that routine we go about our business is undeniable, the heart of the Darren feels in the face of this. Like he's not been, there's not like a muted response to that he has to this. It has like a, I think we see in his eyes not just fear, which we see elsewhere from him. You know, when he's backing up in the set, but think for revulsion. Like this certainly does not strike us as behavior that Darren admires. That seems I think fair to say. - I will just say without getting too much into it, like my experience with this is that it doesn't, it doesn't ever get easier. It actually just kind of compounds. And there's this feeling of helplessness. And just sort of like, but how do I make myself as quite and as small and as compliant as possible so that it doesn't land on me? And what I do love about Darren, like Darren in that earlier sequence, looking sort of like hopeful after the like, we're gonna go this guy and Darren's just like, "Oh, we're doing it." It's gonna be fine, you know? And then he's like, "Oh no, same as it fucking ever was with this guy, I will make myself as quite and as small and I'll just put my hands behind my back and I am not. I cannot be a target." But also what I like about Darren is that he's like, I'm not gonna let someone else be the target to try to protect someone else. - I'm gonna try to get someone else out of the room, you know what I mean? 'Cause there are other ways in which one can in the face of abuse try to like redirect it elsewhere. And Darren's just like, "That's not who I am." And again, like my fanfishing that I've written is that if something like that happened, it would be like, "Guayne telling Darren get out of here." - Yeah. - You know, like this is coming. Like, "Guayne was that insulation that Darren is now trying to be." - And this is the scene, this Ormond Alper scene when Darren asked, so hopefully it's "Guayne coming." - It's the lateral head. It's 'Guayne coming." It's a dumbledon. - Ulf has a request. Do you want to hit, this is actually where Orwell tells Renera that Ormond never replied to Otto. Do you want to hit your theories here? Like, is there more? This is, okay, so our listener, Luka Luka, who is a longtime thrones expert, the best love Luka. Wrote in to remind us that in season two episode one, Otto reported on Ormond's movements and intentions. And after Otto was gone, Jasper Wild reported on Ormond's march through the reach. So is Orwell lying? Did the show forget? What was that scene for anyway? Just so Orwell can say Ormond rules Old Town like his own kingdom to set up Ormond raising Darren's claims to the throne and at the end of the episode, maybe, et cetera, et cetera. Luka wrote in with the Glass-Kiddle theory, which I really, like a real crackpot knows it's crackpot, like sort of Glass-Kiddle theory, this idea that Ormond is communicating that way. But there's something afoot here. Like there's just zero possibility that Ormond, so I don't know if it is that Orwell's lying or if there was some other way or were the scrolls burned, where the records burned, like, did Larry-- Or just someone took them, yeah, did Larry's. Yeah, he was stashing Otto, also, Hi-Doll. I think Orwell lying is definitely a possibility. Somebody hiding or destroying the correspondence so that it could not be handed over is definitely a possibility. All of those reports and accounts of Ormond's behavior, or advancement coming from other people, but Ormond himself being like, I don't really need to spend my time thinking about what Otto was asking me. So it's not filed under. It's not filed under like a high-tower common Ormond. It's like Roxanne and common John. Exactly, both John. But like, Ormond is forever writing and I'm saving scrolls. It's like baths and smelling nice stuff and writing and receiving scrolls is a lot. That's all this guy does. So like, there's zero chance to me that Ormond never wrote a scroll to Otto, zero. What if he was using like a code name? Different seal so that it couldn't be detected as his? King Ormond. Detected as a legit only by his signature scent. On the parchment, King Ormond, exactly. Wolf pops his head in like you said. The syrup is still waiting about. That was so funny. And he started a petition for favors. This was one of my favorite Renera and Patience Moments. Seek them. It's like, I have shit to do. And no one helped me do it. Not there to ask favors for himself though. For his, as he calls them, Joe, allies. Just incredible. It's to have her mates, his pal, Mushon Clay. Thank you, Grace. This is just an incredible moment. On the one hand, kind of wild from Wolf, given that Renera has not actually been able to give him or you or anyone else the things that they've asked for. But kind of like, first of all, admire the hustle a little bit. And also looking after his boys. Yeah, sort of touching. So it's like, okay, if you don't have coin dispens. Yeah. Show us your pull. Can you at least look the other way? Well, not just for all for a Renera. Like, you can't afford me. Okay. Can you do some faves for my friends? No taxes. No, and part of the crimes. I don't even get to go back to the tavern. Okay, so it's my church. It's my belly. Oh, but it's not. No, you belong now to the crown. Should something befall you or your belly? I suffer the loss of a dragon and they, Unity of the Realm is threatened. Say it with us folks. Are you giving your supporters what they need? This is like so cold and clueless. I think the fact that Reneer actually believes this is obviously just alarming, but I think the fact that Reneer says it without considering the way it would be received. - Well, and it's also Ormond language when he's like that high-tower man is the like physical extension of you to Darren. Like they're speaking with the same language. The same as it ever was. Listen, tough, hate to see it. Very rough. All like the fact that we've seen all like hug Jace, Jace hated it. Try to hug Damon. Damon's like, "No, thank you." And then get hugs all around in the tavern and Reneer's like, "You don't get to go there "anymore your favorite place on earth. "You have to sit here in the castle with all the rats." - Right. - And hopefully some cats and be sober and miserable. I'm gonna laugh in your face when you say that you wanna be named Targaryen, which was a ridiculous request. Let's be honest, let's be fair. - Targaryen? - Absolutely not. You only get to leave. You can't go ahead with your friends. I own you. You only get to leave when you're going to do work for my cause. I mean, this is so, so, so rough. Well, I have to say, bad management. I was even more shocked by the hot spa of Ulf's reply. Carlos, can we see this? They protest you, you know, out there in the city. I've seen viral words painted on walls. They say queen of bastards. The work I am sure of some of your misguided subjects who mistakenly believe they're queen to be unkind. Who mistakenly believe their queen to be unkind is such a sub-tweet. Like, it's so brazen, it's so shocking. Renewer gonna cut off his head right there. Gonna cut off his head right there. - And she loses a dragon rider. - Well, this is a lot of value in your own. Gotta keep that head on that neck. Interesting. - Oh, man. - Stuff. - Why? - For him right on the heels of Kroel is being the goesons of bastards. Like, yeah. - Renewer, not a good manager. - To have to suffer these challenges from everybody around you must be so fucking galling. But yeah, Vernero's making some mistakes. It's just wild. - Don't cry. - Orders Sir Adrian to have Lucer find those responsible and then later in the episode. And again, gives no detailed instructions. Just make it go away. And then I'll bring them to you just. And this, I think we talked about last episode. I think that like, can anybody else be relied upon to get stuff done? Why are all these people coming to Renewer to say like, what about the candles? What about the price of wine? So like the, just see to it. I think we kind of understood given how much it feels like it's directly on Renewer's plate. But yeah, like, what are you setting into motion and what will the consequences of that be? And you know, it was, it's what we see at the end of the episode with Luther and the Gold Cloaks abusing the citizens of King's Landings to try to identify the graffiti artists throwing, pulling children away from their parents, throwing people down the stairs, swords coming out. First of all, very reminiscent of Damon and the Gold Cloaks at the beginning of season one, a cab forever, but also reminiscent of what we're seeing in Templeton, right? All the worlds of Templeton. The King's Landings citizens are not literal prisoners the way the Templeton citizens are, but like, what's the difference, right? I wanted to read a bit of this email. We got from our listener, Lauren, it's quite long and I'm not going to do the whole, and I already cut it down. It's impossible to learn. You're so eloquent and beautiful. But like the, some of which we've already talked about the Allison and Darren comp just sort of like, the way in which their position is the same, the reminders of season one, Allison, we're getting not just with the picked cuticles, but also like the pattern blue, you know, nightgown that she's in, that's very much the color. She was wearing it at the beginning of season one, et cetera, et cetera. The framing, people have done these side-by-sides on like social media of the framing of auto-holding Allison's face and Orman holding Darren's face. It's like the exact same sort of shot. But Lauren's like larger theme was the danger of expectations of a role overtaking a sense of self. I was thinking about this a lot when I was thinking about Renera and like Renera just being like take care of it to the gold cloaks. When Renera does, I think care about the people of King's Landing. She just doesn't think through consequences here. So Lauren says, "Alescent is a high tower who is thrust into the role of a Targaryen queen by auto." Darren is a Targaryen who Orman is trying to craft into a high tower king. Both are manipulated by a sense of love to their abusers and a false sense of duty that is what must be done to the further the ambitions of high tower mentors of throne. Renera and Aemond are a good comp. Both were looked down upon his children for their lack of dragons. That is, as it is seen as the role of a Targaryen to be a dragonwriter, both became so transfixed by this feeling of shortcoming and unworthiness. They not only claimed dragons, they claimed two of the most dangerous dragons who they then lost control of killing Luke and Jason respectively, that parallel of like those two killing the two strong boys look out, Joffrey. That's not, again, that's the spoiler of the joke. Even with Renera, she believes that the gods have mandated that she must be queen. And is that a risk of losing herself trying to become the person she has told she must be? To quote Friga in Endgame, everyone fails at who they are supposed to be. But to me, House of the Dragon is largely based around what a person gives up to try to become it. So what has Renera abandoned about herself? Or what is she continuing to abandon about herself? In order to fill this queen role that she is told that she is supposed to be and she was asked to be. Like she didn't really want it. Wanna see Kate can fly on her dragon? That's not really what she wanted. But once she was told about the prophecy, once all these other things is like, who she must be? A King or Queen has to understand this. To sit the throne was said. And who was allocent before Otto said her on this path? And who was Darren that we're indeed are watching him become eroded? Aiman was actually a very sweet young boy, you know? And like, Renera we barely knew you. So like, hard to say. But like it's, I think it's really interesting to think about like you have to be a bad-ass, the most bad-ass dragon writer, Aiman, or else you're nothing in your family, right? And Allison, you have to go seduce the King or else you're not my daughter. Like all of this shit is toxic, quite rational drama. Yeah, and I mean, a character like Aiman, it's like the opposite has as much of a hold on him too. Oh, you're, we're gonna mock you, the pink dread. Right, so we have to turn himself the humiliations of your challenge. Yeah, I always think, it's a great email. And I always think of the Allocent moment with Otto. How could I know? You know, our hearts are not as one conversation. And like, how could I even know what I wanted? You've always told me. Yeah, you always told me. And then Renera who had a sense of that, but that has been subsumed by these other things. And the moments, I think it's part of what's interesting about this story is the complexity inside of that tragedy because to go back to the cinnamon and oranges and when won't we like, that was a moment where we're near a leaned in. And it was like, you know, Kristen's pitch was, this is a burden, it's been thrust upon you. And she's like, this is my bark fucking birthright, yeah. Right? Very rich text, very rich text. Egg on. Who grew up feeling completely ignored by his parents? Who masturbated out a window, had the Jack mattress. Melissa. A shirt. A maid kisses the boot, Joe. Sure does. We got so many emails about this and I would just like to thank our listeners, aplenty. They were all like, do you think Larissa's jealous that Egg on got to kiss the boot? I'm just gonna read these two snippets. Tyler says, is that the only one expecting to see Larissa's eyes widened with lust when Egg on was told to kiss that dude's feet? And AJ said, I felt sorry for Larissa's episode. Dude is out here working hard and spending all his coin while Egg on his two handing dragon hugs and getting into foot stuff. Larissa's like, that's my thing, man. Foot stuff. I don't think Larissa has a shit-cover boot. Shit, finished? So this was probably not for him. He likes the bear toast. Bear toast. The bear toast. Well, remarkable. Sorry to keep pulling the bell. I'm gonna be sure, just they always deliver my goodness. This is where Egg on finds out that the realm thinks he's adding that aim and it's interesting, unsurprising, given the tension and history between those two brothers that so much of Egg on's rage right now is directed toward aiming. Like this would be unbearable for him. That, especially after what actually did transpire at Rook's rest, what aim and has done to him and aim and of course, you know, embarrassed at the brothel, et cetera, for aim and to in the sick, twisted interpretation of it, basically have gotten the victory, have gotten credit for besting Egg on would just be unbearable for Egg on here clearly. So he's focused on aim and he's like not even focusing on Ranero, which is just fascinating. Totally forgets himself, right? Leave some self-vulnerable. Think that the challenge here to Janos is not wise, but as you and Vambrot up on Talk to Thrones comes from like a, oh, this is, this is how you run this camp. Right, right? Kind of interesting. Yeah, and also then having to confront, okay, without your dragon, without your name, without your power, without the stature of who you are, how do you inspire, respect, fear, consideration of any sort? It's not even like inspired, it's like commands. Yeah. It used to just like demanding, [BLANK_AUDIO] getting what he wants. And now on the other end of the blade and the lips on the sugar boot. From shitty boots to charred hats, Damon has a gift for a nearer. He brings in the goat herd or head. It's very crispy. He pretends it's sheepsteelers rider. Can I just say it before he. So they're small counseling before David Washington. And Ranera is. At first I was like, is she tapping on the table? She's cracking a hard boiled egg. She has a little snack. And it's just like reminded me of like, you know, we were talking about the cracker stain in the previous episode. But I'm just sort of like, this is real Joanna had a baby bell and a mini-snickers for lunch at the office. Like energy. Very relatable. Mallory had a crustimal, like she's just got. She's eating like hard boiled eggs and crackers because she's not sitting down for a full meal. She's a lady on the go. The only time she asked for full meals is to serve. Rock banquets for her gastro. Yeah, it's a rock banquets or snacks. This is it. These are the two options. Great stuff. Or like she's tried to sit down to a meal with Coralis and he's like, can you give me some possible things? That's right. It's like goddamn it. All business all the time. A hard boiled egg, very. Let's look, it's a good snack though. Protein rich. That protein rich, wonderful. Yeah, there you go. Protein. Renera would dig this current protein. Yeah, she's protein vaccine. There's a lot of hilarity in this scene before we get to the conversation, the tense conversation between Renera and Damon. Torin mandrily pulling his goblet further away from the charred head. Probably top in the list. That was so funny. Tampa was really doing it. It was really doing the thing. Damon lugging at him, would you please explain who this is? Yeah. This is hysterical. Yeah. And then the. I'm the clever one exchange. It's just incredible. But also, this has been character memory because Damon has chosen to lie to Renera in order to protect his kid. Was the choice to protect the kid. But that's what the text says. Fine. Ms. Aryan knows. She did say last week she gets sniff a lie. Smells a lie. And it knows Damon well and does not believe for a second though what he's saying here is true. Not for a second. On the Damon Ms. Arya front, Damon wants the gold to go to paying the city watch. Ms. Arya wants to go to the small folk and Renera sides with Ms. Arya here. Alms for the small folk. It's gonna look like my question is, can we like split the funds with it? Then no one's happy maybe, but like, I don't know. I think wanting to help the small folk is good. Yeah. Not paying your cops. Army is bad, bad, and taking the allegiance and adherence of your pledge supporters for granted continues to be a concern. Like she basically says, Damon, you're their guy. They're just telling them to like, wait a minute. Yeah, that's not ideal, I'd say. Our listener who identified themselves as grape, I don't know what their actual name is. Maybe it's grape. Um, could be. Wrote in to mention an acronym in the text here, which I think is fun because Damon says it'll be Bedlam in the street. Bedlam comes from like the mental hospital of Bedlam, which is as far as I know, not in West Rose. Meet's back on the menu of ways. It'll be Bedlam in the streets. It's not the Oklahoma Oklahoma state college football rivalry game. Bedlam. Oh, I didn't know that that's what it's called. How long we have to wonder until Missaria shares the suspicion with Raniera. I think they were just out right. It looks for facts. I think she's going to gather more information before she just goes like, do you think Damon's lying? Because I think she, I think she knows Damon has Raniera's year. Missaria has Raniera's year. And I think if she's going to come and say, your closest ally is lying to you. You got to have some receipts. Yeah. But I don't know how you do that. They're bringing like someone said they saw sheep's dealer. Like, what do you do? Well, this is part of what-- so on that front, I think part of what made me like, oh, boy, nervous for Damon here. And again, as you said, there's like a lot of adaptive changes here. So who knows? Raina's like, OK, I'm going to live a life of exile. But and flies away. Far just toward Damon and flies away. But Damon just saying, he'll deride her sheep's dealer fled. You're never going to see him again. That seems risky as hell. Oh, yeah. At any point, she's like, don't worry about it. She's like, don't worry about it. No one else will. It's him a while, dragon. Don't worry about it. I just didn't think she was leaving leaving. I think she was like leaving the cave and planning to come back to the cave. Like, he left. That was Mary too. But even if we go to another mountain, though, I have to think they built that set, assuming they would use it again, who knows. I mean, that's just nuts if you're Damon. It's very risky. So Jane Aaron, he says Terena, he reminds the audience that Jane Aaron does that. Of course, we saw Jane Aaron and Raina interact. Is Missaria going to hit up a little bird? I have some questions. There are a lot of people around me. Oh, yeah. That's a good question, right? So like, Missaria going to send someone part of being the mistress of Whisperers as cultivating sources, which like we saw the way we're in operate. Missaria has a pension for that, right? Is good at it. Those, if you're doing this in the seat of power across the realm, you have to have your little birds. This vera shows everything. I feel like Jane is the only possible source here. Or even just someone in Jane's camp who witnessed Reina. But we don't feel like either. I mean, that wouldn't be. I feel like one of Jane's dogs. I don't know. You solved it again. You solved it again. [LAUGHTER] Orphan is a vampire who happens to be a day walker. And Jane Aaron's dogs are going to tell Missaria exactly what is going on. That's probably how the season ends. You know me in the writers' house. Conno, call her. Just make sure you have baby bells. I need the baby bells. They are delicious. They are the only only in baby bells. Drink cheese here today. Really? Oh, yeah. Immediately, you just asked for that like a few days ago. Conner rules. Wow, you command her fast. While I went to the front, Conner, she's like, whoa. She's made a request. Incredible. Team here at take a more. And she was just sort of like, what would be a street cheese? And look on a horror on my face. You're like, not instead of the baby. Never instead of the baby bells. In addition to the old, why not both? Protein. The old, why not both? And then those little meat sticks. Delicious. That's what you think. They help get me through the day. As you noted, there's no time for actual meals right now. Our schedules are fucking bad shit. It's fine. We're doing great. Everything's good. Renera has some questions about this head, right? I wanted to see him. I wanted to look on the one who killed my son to punish him yourself, Damon says. Do you think that would end your grief? What crumbs of it may be snatched, I will devour. This is what Renera said to Damon previously about justice. I will never have justice. But what crumbs of it may be snatched, I will devour. So this idea that like when you already didn't get the clarity? Snacks. Snacks. Snacks. Delicious. What crumbs of the little pita on my snatch? I made me devour it. Didn't get closer. Didn't get clarity. But also, once again, did not get to exert her agency, right, Joe? I guess on the one hand, on the other hand, when Otto is in front of her, she's like, I don't want to do this, it's so like-- What she did. I mean, put two strokes, but she did it. Very tense. Very tense dynamic between-- I'm sorry. I really like what Connell said on "Inside the Episode," which you wrote in the notes here. But like, I think Renera is surprised, honestly, by her emotional reaction to it. In the moment, just realize that she feels cheated out of the satisfaction of taking vengeance herself. You pour that into the next scene, right? When Renera goes to see Alicent, to go from that, to go from her-- looking at that skull and feeling like, I don't have closure, I don't have vengeance, I don't have whatever, to this gesture for Alicent of like, I will send Otto's body here as his ring, just sort of like trying, I think, trying to give Alicent a crumb of something that she was not able to receive with this barbecue head of a goat herder that she got. The billowing rage into humanity and the ability to feel like there's some goodness left in the world. I thought it was interesting too that Renera, in that moment, with Alicent invoked Viserys, it's what he would have wanted, which felt like kind of a reminder of this tie that they share, but also like a little bit of a almost like self-preservation shield, right? He would have wanted. It's also what she would have wanted, but she can't say that. I'm the best queen, but I would have wanted this. Pregnancy reveal. Well, it is pregnant. I do just think this is Aegon's kid. I don't think there's any extra show. I think the timeline is confusing. Some people, because it's been two years since the show was on, but like, it has not been that long since Rook's Rest, and like, did it happen right before? Did it happen even like, I don't even think the coronation was that long ago. Like, it could have been like a post coronation celebration fuck from Aegon or whatever. Then I'm sure Helena deeply enjoyed. But I think she just has Aegon. She's pregnant with Aegon's kid. I think so too. And if it's not, the realm will still assume it is, so it's a problem in the way, but I agree. I think it is almost certainly like a take in by what Fiya who said about this, about how Helena feels so powerless in her own life, and this is something that is just hers on not even wanting to tell Allison. Right. And this is something that Van brought up on Talk Thrones, where he's just like, I love this. It gives, it just really immediately deepens Helena's character in just like an extremely fascinating way, for her to have the secret from Allison, for her to have her own interior life to some degree. I think it's really, really good. And Helena has lost her child. You know, we see what Reneira got in cheese that happened. It did, sure it did happen. Reneira, the loss of Luke, the loss of Jason, is inextricable from every aspect of Reneira. Did I make you feel better now? Did it make you feel, right? Yes, yes. Helena asking that, not only Jeharris's death, but Helena in that room witnessing it, being forced into pointing all of that. Like, what a horrible thing, it's through this fear. This is just for me, but also this fear undeniably. And you see the fear, and you see the alarm on Allison's face, right away here. Because the realm, there's the question of the realm, right? If this is another air. And we mentioned on Talk to Thrones, but just to say very quickly again, There's another kid in the books who's like a toddler. So we were like, where's this other kid? The timeline is different. - Ginger Martin was like, where's this other kid? - The theme is infamous. The where the butterflies post that had to be taken down was about many things. Ultimately it was gonna be like a six-part series. If I recall, is that right? That might be a procreforal, I don't know. - I think that's true. It was like, this is part one. Then he's like, oops, HBO legal called me. (laughing) Unbelievable. So, release the other one. (laughing) Again, you are the challenge, right? And that, I always quote that you are the challenge part, but the first part of that feels almost more relevant here, 'cause young Jack mattress, Egon was like, then I won't challenge, right? Rain of the unfortunate Jack mattress, Egon. Doesn't track, doesn't fit. You are the challenge, you are the challenge. I got simply by living and breathing. Just existing makes the airs threats to Reneira. - Right. - Or Reneira's line, you know. - So what does the realm think? But what does Reneira think? What's Reneira gonna do? - Yeah. - Reneira was horrified by blood and she is right? Horrified by a kid being killed. - Math is different now. - Hender toward Helena, but the circumstances have, have the Darren death conundrum last week now through this lens and this context. Very worrying. - I also think it's, you know, like Allison obviously is going to lie to Reneira to protect Helena, like zero doubt about that. - You gotta try, but it's a pregnancy. You can only do it for so long. - The wheels are turning, turning in her head of like, how can I cover this? Like that's, that's absolutely what's going on for Allison. - Yeah. - She's been lying to Reneira about Reneira. This sort of like last of us kind of like circling of the wagons of like, who is the us and who is the them. And like Damon has made his sort of like team of two with Reneira. Like it's, Reneira is supposed to be his inner circle, but he has sort of like, split it over and made, in that moment, Reneira, his inner circle. And I mean, Allison Helena, duh, like that's, that's just what it's been, but like, Reneira kind of coming to rely on Allison a little bit for more advice and stuff like that. Now here's this like, impossible wedge between them. - I think it's particularly interesting that we saw Allison immediately reveal the, that's not Darren. Last week, right? It's practical. You're not going to be able to maintain cover forever and then you'd be blamed for not sharing that, but also trying to secure a release offering up the Orman smell info, giving Reneira information, being a good source of intelligence to admit her imprisonment and trying to secure a release. Well, you can't do that with this. You can't barter with this information. It's too precious for the thing that Allison, since the season two finale, that pitched to Reneira was on one again. - This is all in a line. - All in one is Helena and Jaira. - Yeah. - My girl and my daughter and my granddaughter for us to be safe, for the word to answer, but like for us to be safe. This is in parallel now. - Unsafe. - Speaking of parallel, Orman forces Darren to bloody his blade. Orman is keeping to Sarian chained in the sept in Tumbleton, the symbolism of this, the high tower attempt to control. - Like a neuter. - Yes, exactly. That's a great, great neuter. - The Targaryen force. A lot of emails asking how they got that dragon into that sept, which seemed like it was the door too small for a dragon to come through. I can't remember. - It was like in the basement. It was like a sept basement situation. - Do you think the roof retracts like the dome of a stadium? - That's it. - That's it. Jaira's dogs retractable roof in Tumbleton. Professionals, the technology has developed in Tumbleton to retract roof. - Oh man. - This, we talked a lot about the dragon hubris with Targaryen Joe, but this is a dragon hubris from Orman dear, I think. - Boy. - Sweet cream puff blue queen to Sarian. - I love these two. - Well, we'll fly again. - My girl. - My girl. - I mean, Aagan said my boy. - This bond is a sacred thing. - What do you think Reynas says to sheepie? - My man. - My man. - That's a great question. I hope we get to find out. I love sheepsealer. - I love. - Oh man. They love each other. They just want to fly. I don't know, you see the bond. You see this nozzle. You see this affection. You think like Orman can't possibly convince Darren that this part of him is wrong and bad and foul. The taint disormant puts it. But that's the hideous, noxious effect that a presence in your life and abusive toxic presence in your life can have. - Arlyssa Chris sent in this screenshot of a tweet from someone who goes by "Alice and Pilled Hide Hours" incredible on Twitter. It's the shot of young Alison and Renera in the set when they were sort of kneeling in front of all the candles there. And then the shot of Tissarian and Darren and the caption here is "Alice and Being Raised in Kings Landing" away from her family and clinging to religion. As her last connection to her house and Darren being raised in Old Town and doing the same with Tissarian. I'm just sad. - Very sad. Darren is a prisoner here, probably. - And I'm not sure if you heard but a dragon is not a slave. - No. - I wouldn't put him in chains first. - I'll leave you. - Remember when Danny chained two of her dragons in the catacombs of Marianne? - It was a mistake. - Really well. - That was a mistake. - Where's Tyrion when you need him? - I know, Jesus. Tissarian roaring at Ormond. Get your hands off my boy. - I love this, one of my favorite passages from Fire and Blood. Some will claim that the bond between a dragon and a dragon rider run so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. So there's the idea that just Tissarian is like, so good, right? And Tissarian is just like, fuck this guy and I know that on my own. But also that we have plenty of reasons to believe that this is a reflection of Darren's real feelings about Ormond. So that feels. - When Ormond's talking about the problem with Ranera and he says, "The Brutes raised a woman to the Iron Throne a desecration, where is reason, where is propriety? Did you think of where is duty, where is sacrifice?" - Or a trampled under your pretty foot again. - Hi, Tarris Briss. - And I was thinking of that scene also, Joe, when Ormond is attempting to do his best Tywin with Tom and what makes a good king lesson and says, a righteous king must demonstrate. He upholds many virtues on our wisdom justice and then Darren's like, well, what about mercy? That sounds like some of your father would say, exhausting, wasn't it hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness in that same scene? But now they see you as you are. Like the idea that Ormond is cloaking himself in this idea of righteous action and justice and, oh, the faith, and then bringing under his pretty little foot, faiths. And I'm sure he does smell great, 'cause he's obsessed with exactly bringing Leo in there to have Darren stab him in the shadow of the step. It's just, ooh, boy, the parallels here are delicious, but it's also just very, very, very, very painful. Ormond has a plan, though. Carlos, can we see this clip? What was rightly ours? We are the superior men, but against that, we could not stand. Get 'em, man. We should have this Paula about the dissection. Oh, yeah, let's, yes. Oh, yes, we need the Paula intel on the seren, seren, seren, seren, yes. Trees in this in shocking language. More so even than what we hear from Raymond because Ormond is like, I'm a general for team green and talking this way. Making Darren feel ashamed of who he is horrible. And then he's like, here's my plan. You're gonna make you king, right? You're king. You're king. And Darren's like, what about my brothers? Completely aghast. Ormond evokes this action order. Alan's hand of the queen. There goes a rock 'em up for everybody here. Darren's king. King of Templeton. Pre-dragon, right? Pre-conquest, the olden days of high tower kings. I'll rule in the shadows. I'll pop it master and pop it here like Tywin. He doesn't know about Tywin. Tywin's in the future, but we do. Yeah. But this is all about the idea that the high tower should have been, and it's galling damn. We're the superior men. They have to be the right men. They can't. They can't. For the targ's? Absolutely not, galling. Boy, that sounds like something your father would say. We talked about the sun talking thrones, but real like welcome back into our hearts, Viserys moment for us. The mercy has-- there's a place for mercy. There has to be. Shuffle your little log walk into our hearts. Oh, man. I did think it was really interesting, given how. Ormond-- and many others vilify the targ's that think he's bumping on with Viserys is this inheritance of mercy of the room for mercy. I thought that was-- which, of course, he sees as weakness, right? And then Darren stabs Leo. We wanted to talk about something that is different from the book. And we don't think this is a spoiler, really, but skip ahead if you want to be like extra sensitive. The next thing is the book's spoilers anyway. So if you don't want to hear-- If you don't want to hear this, and we're heading right into the book's spoilers after this, so you've warned. We should say at this point in the book, Darren has already been battle tested. And so this would not be like a first kill for Darren. And I think it's a really interesting adaptive choice to-- like Darren's intro is so dramatic in the book. And this is a very different intro for him. But I think bringing us inside of this moment of loss of innocence for Darren for us to see his first kill versus, like, he's a soldier boy. He has done things during the daring. What's the daring about him? And it's just sort of like-- and to see him just shaking and doing this horrifying thing, I think, is such a much more interesting compelling character moment. And like the proximity. it's his hand that is forced to face the dragon back. - It's not from like up high, right? - Yeah. - Book spoilers? And now we begin. (dramatic music) - Okay, boy. - Now tens. - Sorry, sorry. - What if the Sarian had channeled that there? Like no. - Now tens. (laughing) - That would have been great. (laughing) - Oh man. - Okay, Tumbleton the town, let's just say. Never fully recovered from first and second Tumbleton. So showing us life in this town, these people. - They built a whole town so they could burn it. That's why they built the biggest set yet. - Oh my God. - So they could burn an entire fucking town. - We've got first Tumble coming. - Yeah. - We've got second Tumble coming. We've got all the horrors in between. - Or is other people they could call it Tumble one, Tumble two. (laughing) - That was so good. (laughing) - Oh man, Lady Footley, an important character moving forward kind of in charge of these restoration efforts. One of the Touch the Dragon skulls. - For a penny with a Vermean. - She's smoky. - Okay, Vermean Vermeath or a sea smoke? - Die at Tumble two. - So many. - I reread that. So many characters die in this location. - Yeah, human and dragon. - Yeah. - A lot of dragons die here. And Lady Footley's like, we're rebuilding. - Yeah. - And so we're gonna mount some dragon skulls. And if you wanna touch it and if you wanna, you know, whatever, it'll cost you. That's part of her reconstruction efforts. - Do you think they're gonna do the Lady Footley, John Rockston sexual assault thing? I don't know, they seem in their sexual assault era. So I hope not. - But who knows? - Okay, the Ormond odor stuff. - Yeah. - So Ormond is again, we're in the spoiler section. Well, we just spilled a bunch of shit already. So hopefully you heard that and took it seriously. He's killed by Rodney the ruin at Tumble one. Well, we're just not sure that they're gonna get let James Norton go so readily. But maybe they will. - I kind of hope not. There are more characters. It's weird. I feel like he kind of has to be gone for some of the other stuff that happens to happen and make sense. But also, we're gonna come back to another theory of how it begins. - Yeah, you dropped an email in here that I was like, whoa, I'm not considering it really good. Rodney the ruin. Most fucking wreak. - That guy does not smell good. - Is it just like he gets to the Ormond and he's like, "Oh, this guy's stupidity is dead." Or do you think we got some theories? Is they not there? - A listener Nicola wrote in with the email title, "Checkout's Poppers." - Unbelievable. - I feel like Ormond's sent in bottle is getting almost as much airtime as the cat in Cape Fear. My mind, shout out Cape Fear listeners, love you. My mind did also go immediately to drag and our spring mayhem as Malcolm Tucker would say. But I also wonder if the bottle itself might be tampered with. - Ooh, I like that theory. - So like his little sniffer, like could you put some poison in there? It's like that. What if Darren does it? - I would be, that would be really fun of Darren's. - That would be satisfying. - Ooh, boy. I love that. - And then just like blood comes out of the nose and he's-- - No, be great. I don't want Roddy the ruin to be denied that kill, but it would obviously be more meaningful if Darren got to take his vengeance. - Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Darren, the Darren. You mentioned the, okay, well like Tissarian and Darren got up to some shit at Honeywine and then just in general defending the march along the road. Is there, is, so there's no, I mean, there's no dragon riding battle experience coming now before Tumbleton. So is Tumble one going to be the debut of Darren on Dragonback? And is it going to be a surprise? Because we haven't seen Darren on, so can it still be a surprise the way that Darren's showing up on Tissarian in the battle of Honeywine? - That's so, that has real Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet potential to me of like they know it. - I don't think he would have forgot. - Well, but like, yeah, good point. - It is, would I be shocked if the characters were gone? - But just sort of like, - Not taking it seriously. - Yeah, 'cause he's like, he's a boy. - 'Cause Darren's young and Tissarian's a little boy. (laughing) - Not really possible. - What do you think about, let's be even Tumble one? (laughing) - Oh, yeah, okay, so two betrayers. - Yeah. - Obviously the setup for this just continues to be great. I don't really know that we even need to say anything more than that. Like, you send Hugh there because his wife is there. That's obviously why. And again, this will be a reveal to us because his wife, this isn't a thing in the book, but like, clearly there's going to be like, burn the town. - Do you need me to say no? - Orman from like, miles away, is just shakes a bottle at all. And it's like, old fee. Yes, booze here. - So old. - Or again, I'm now like, I can't stop thinking about the fact that Orman to witness the game and mocking. - Oh, yeah, this guy's castle. - Well, go off from a castle. - What's done? - What James Norton said in the behind the scenes was like, he was like, Orman's a consummate chess player, right? So he's just like constantly making his moves and this idea that like, and what, I think I'm a Darcy, it was who said like that, and she used the English pronunciation, which you love, that Orman has become the bogeyman for Reneira, just this sort of like this race, this phantom that she doesn't understand his psychology so she can't anticipate his movements. I think that's interesting. So like, yeah. - One more L for Kristen. - He thinks he's the race, but someone else is. - So it's off. - Going. - All right, going. So the question was like, is, is Kristen going to kill, you wrote the notes, is Kristen gonna kill Gwayne for trying to abandon him or will he just die at the Butchers Ball like Kristen? And like, a lot of people anticipate that. So the preview that they showed at the end of this episode was like the rest of the season. - Yes. - It wasn't just next week on, 'cause I think a lot of people saw that and were like, oh my God, are we getting tumbled in? - Right. - And Butchers Ball next week? - In the weeks ahead. - Yeah, in the weeks ahead trailers. So we're definitely not getting tumbled in next week. A lot of people are wondering if we're gonna get Butchers Ball next week, 'cause Kristen Cole is so like, let's go do some real warfare sort of thing. So could Kristen Cole die as early as next week? Could Gwayne die with him? - Right. - In that weeks ahead trailer, there is a line from Kristen Cole where he says they will sing songs of it. And our listener Aiden was like, I literally busted out laughing. Because if you're in this book's book section and you don't know. - Yes. - Kristen's like, when he's about to die at the Butchers Ball, he's like, let's do a mighty duel. And it'll be great. And they'll sing songs of it or whatever. And like, no songs about how brave you die. - No songs, no songs. - No songs for you, King Maker. - Fuck you, you're dead. It's like maybe the best line of the book. - I can't wait to hear it. - Absolutely baller. But like, what if they change it? - I don't know. Sometimes they change the line. - I feel like now hearing the songs thing in the tease for the rest of the season makes me feel like they're actually gonna give us that line. Like they know it's iconic and we have to get it. - Here's our listener Simon's theory about Gwayne though. Tell me. - And which is they in the trailer? - Yes, the final season trailer. There's, so what's the, 'cause your shot was different from the shot I was referencing. - So, right. And this is different from Book Spoilers. This is a trailer breakdown. - A trailer spoiler. - We have no idea, 'cause like in the Book Spoilers section, we can say Gwayne is killed in King's Landing. - He's already dead. - He's dead. This is all new canon for Gwayne. There's a shot of Gwayne in the final trailer, which you, your note last night, remind me I went back and looked like. He's kind of swinging his blade at somebody. You can't see who it is in the scene. But he is now, because we've spent time at Tumble 10, clearly in Orman's Tumble 10 room. - There's also an overhead shot of, but it's far away, but it's an overhead shot of Gwayne, Orman, and John Riding, on horses through the streets of Tumble 10. So Gwayne is making it to Tumble 10. So he's not gonna be killed. - He's not gonna be killed unless his ghost is at Tumble 10. But Gwayne is making, good news for Darren. Gwayne's making it to Tumble 10. - That's great. - We're very excited. - Simon wrote it to say to suggest that Gwayne will take over Hobart, High Towers, role as leader of the Cal Drops. - I love this. - So Gwayne has been characterized as having a close relationship with Darren. If Orman gets taken off the table by Riding the Room in Tumble 1, that's not my name. Gwayne and Darren will be the only forces to lead the High Tower host in opposition to both Blacks and the two betrayers, both in you. We could see Gwayne and Darren attempt to steer the green cause in a more morally upright noble direction, just as Ronira and the Blacks begin to totter from paranoia into cruelty. And in version of the Blacks's virtuous narrative that the show has owed us for some time, I really loved that sentence. The audience's first impression of Gwayne is as a charismatic, rich douchebag, a privileged, pretty boy who is content to look down as Aqualine knows at the up-jumped cutthroat Christian Cole. Even in season three episode four, we hear Kristen bitterly decry Gwayne's high-born view of the war as just a game to be played from the comfort of their stately feather beds. The fact that we are now generally on Gwayne's side, given that he wishes to uphold army's prohibition against assault while Kristen is mired into societal nihilism, is a testament to the efficiency of the characterization and the depravity of Kristen's character alike. If Gwayne ends his life, so again, this is Gwayne in the Hobart Hightower role. If Gwayne ends his life by drinking poison to take out Ulf or maybe killing you that we have John Rox on the show, so maybe not, it continues as profound ambiguity with regard to class and privilege. On the one hand, Gwayne will be taking out a destabilizing dangerous and possibly depraved dragonwriter for the betterment of the continent, Ulf's a real piece of shit in the book. On the other, however, he will be reinforcing the feudal system of power against a rare commoner who managed to subvert those structures, especially given that the show's depiction of the seeds has been way more complex than he was a violent brute and Ulf is a rapist depiction we get in the book. So like, I love this idea for Gwayne, right? Like this idea that he will, and like I was, so we went back and reread the section where Hobart like brings the two casts of wine and one is poison and one is not and he's hoping he can like get away, like envisioning all of that with Freddie Fox. - Very exciting. - And like that's a season four possibility, right? 'Cause that's like, if tumble one as we think is gonna end the season, you know, then tumble two is next season. So we get Freddie Fox all into season four and in this much more prominent role. And like as someone we can root for, like, I just, I love this idea. - I think that this is particularly exciting on the going there and front. - Yeah. - Given the complexity of like, 'cause I have questions with get those two dinders to get. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, let's do it. Just in general, what Darren, you know, is there a version of this where even after Ormond is gone, perhaps Darren takes a hand in it, like we just discussed, but what is Darren's relationship to the idea of being crowned, gonna be? Because it's very different in the book, but that is kind of an idea. And then the challenge, you know, he was like, I'm gonna be the king. - I'm gonna be the king. - I mean, that's not something that character is gonna say. - It doesn't seem likely. Yeah, so there's a lot to figure out there. Gawain, there's so many high-tower characters missing, obviously Hobart is the book to show change in terms of where he is in the family tree is different. Does Ormond and the show have kids? - I don't think so. - It doesn't seem like it. So that's a little bit interesting in terms of some of the ripples of like, I think Darren is probably his heir in the whole of the show. - Yeah, so there's just like fewer characters total. There's also like, okay, Ormond's heir isn't gonna like lead to a high-tower faith rift because he's basically like, oh, there's some incest. Like, you know, let me fuck my stepmom. - I think we should just use the high-tower characters we have to drive that plot. - Yeah, like efficiency of characters is the same way we use Reyna for nettles and stuff like that. We're using a high-tower who's been with us now for two seasons, that's very exciting. I'm into it. Sunfire and Egon, Joanna, I'm worried this is a season finale thing. - I'm just like, how long are they gonna drag us out? Because I really am enjoying the Egon virus stuff, but it's, I do think it, at certain point, defies believability that they can get away with being there for that long without being detected. Now maybe that comes, there is that shot in the trailer of Egon like, looking up, maybe they're detected, imperiled and Sunfire rises to save them. That's like possible, I guess. - It's like roast Janos and his shitty boots. That would be great, I would love that. - I feel like this is a season finale thing. - Yeah. - Tumble one and Egon gets on Sunfire. - They're like the other thing. - I mean that would be, this just, I have so many questions about this, 'cause like obviously in the Alice Rides Baker. - She's gonna ride something. - Oh man, yeah, finale seems, penultimate or finale feels right at this point. - Yeah, it's maybe penultimate. - Haleena. - So there's a shot in the trailer that we were sort of trying to puzzle over and it looks like maybe Haleena giving birth. She doesn't seem that far, you know, so if she gives birth, we had thought maybe this was like an Amon dream, Heron Hall dream. So maybe it's still an Amon Heron Hall dream or maybe like she goes into early labor or I don't know what's gonna happen. Will she die in childbirth instead? Will she jump out the window because of whatever happens to her baby? Malor, her baby in the book does die horribly is this baby going to be born and die horribly in that sense Haleena out the window. I don't know. - I'm just so concerned. - It's gonna be horrible. - Awful. - The way that they've used, and also sort of like this question of like, for Olivia Cook to say in the behind the scenes, like gonna make her take Moonti or something else or whatever. And if you couple that with Haleena, saying no living creature will be harmed early in the season, like, I don't think that's something Haleena wants. - Yeah, I mean, and there's the like, I mean, obviously everything with Malor and his death, bitter bridge is horrific, horrible. - Horrific? There's something about this now being at the red keep whatever is gonna happen. We genuinely don't know. We just will be different from the book canon, but like, it's a foot away from all of our characters. Like, it's in the same halls that are near us in. Allosant is right there is, yeah, what role does Missaria play either in this or Haleena's eventual death? 'Cause like, one of, there's so much speculation around Haleena's death in the book, but one of the whispers is like, Missaria, sharing what happened with Malor, right? So, I don't know, it's just gonna be, this is gonna be so, so, so, so tough. Damien and Nettles speaking of Missaria. So she's the one who's like whispering about the affair to Ranera. Just to clean Swapier or she can also, like if she finds out from Jane's dogs that there is, I said keep going with it until it's, until you have absolutely no ability to think it could be true. Lean in. As we know. Send to just rolled that speed. So that's exactly right. That's right. When Jane's dogs report to Missaria, that it's a young lady on the back of sheep's dealer. Could Missaria say like, "Dame is clearly fucking this girl," or could it just be like, "Even if it is his daughter, he married his niece." - Targaryen's love and says. - Targaryen love and says. - You're right. - That's not off the table, unfortunately. - Jesus. - You're right. - Summer and says continues to pace. - Megor returned. Completely fell a fear from the ruler who will be known as, I did a real lia-- - Megor with teeth. - Pointing meme when she was just sort of like, they'll name me Megor. I was like, Megor returned, I was like close. Megor with teeth. - It seemed it's gonna be even worse. - Megor with teeth is so brutal. It's all speaking of teeth. It's the Comptoncock tax. Keltegar done. - Oh. - Do anyone-- - Keltegar's tax. - Okay, so the Tormander Lee, he's gonna do the tax, maybe. Keltegar is so derided and despised by the citizens of King's Landing for the tax that he is gelled at, his head is cut off. They like, can't do that with Tormander Lee because he's too important of a figure in the regency. - If they are doing the regency at all. - Are listener Ash also said, because Keltegar is not a master of coin, perhaps Keltegar to be one of the men who betrays her near and opens the gate of drag, like this feels right to me. - He's the guy at Dragonstone who we still kind of know who he is, but like Bert, like Keltegar needs to, I don't know. - Yeah, it's funny because I kind of was reading this email was like, oh, do they just have him do it instead of Alphur? - Oh yeah, but then we had the whole like, charade, a very dramatic Heron Hall where would whisper to broom, that would be like, kind of a waste. That said, it's possible that they did all the faceras cut by the throne stuff and then decided not to do that with her. So, you know, you tend to your garden in real time. - I do tend to run in real time. - Oh man. Any other eerie based theories for-- - Well, the eerie, so on how's the drag, they mentioned they repelt the entire set. - Yeah. - Super expensive. - Maybe time consuming. - This show loves a mural. - Maybe they just really wanted to paint that mural. - For why? Because spoilers, I guess, if you're on the spoiler section, like they don't, you know, like they ask Lady Jane later to send some troops. She's like, sure, by C later, like she's barely in the rest of the story, kind of. So like, in that capacity, in that her throne would be important. So like, is it so that Misariah can go there and hear from her dogs? - Must be that. - Exactly that. - Bring it up. Or on History of Westeros podcast, they were wondering, if maybe they're gonna use it for the Aegon's Conquest show. And it's just sort of like a set that they could use later. - Oh, that's fun. - That's fun. - Yeah. - I like the idea that it's just sort of like, they were like, we wanna get real thronesy with it. - I think it's fun. - You know, but that's so spendy for them to do. Okay, the shepherd. - Yeah. - All right, so Michael wrote in to say, so the shepherd is this figure that still needs to show up on the show, it's like very important leader of the common folk who's got this anti-target drag and sentiment, a rabble rouser sort of leader. Michael says the most powerful thing the show can do is make Kristen Cole the shepherd. I hate that because I think we need to watch Kristen Cole die. And also Fabian Frankl seems like real clear that he's done with the show. - I also think this would run the risk of, with respect to the idea. Everyone has to be a Skywalker, like the anti-broom boy. It's like, let's get other characters in the mix and have them play a real part in the events. - I just really disagree with you because I like, I like the idea that the shepherd is someone we already know, just like someone just figured it in disguise. So, I don't think it should be Kristen Cole. - No, Kristen's got a, he's got a diet butcher's body. - I do love broom boy. So who do you think it should be if it's someone we know? - So our listener, Webb suggested Orman. If Orman doesn't die at 21, but instead gets disfigured somehow and like cast out or whatever. And so like James Dorton gets to show up, you know, in a different guys to sort of like in disguise, rouse the rabble and storm the dragon pit, et cetera, et cetera. Like, is that a possible you hate it? - I just think, oh, we should already know the shepherd by now if we're going to like. - I think as my general response to that is like agreement. I think it's always interesting if we know the characters. I guess my the counterweight on that for me, which I think the scales are fairly even on this, but I think the other side of it is pulling slightly more strongly on me. First of all, just to quickly acknowledge the Orman thing specifically, guy can't handle the smell of being around those small fucking kings landing. - But like, maybe that this is his new life. - Maybe a new thing. - Um, I, I think that the idea that the shepherd is, now I'm not going to think of anything else. The guy, the idea that the shepherd is like, no one, there's been so much attention paid to the small folk. For the shepherd to end up being like a, like a, a lord or lady, a member of a great house, feels to me like it's slightly undercuts. - Is it Sylvie? - That I, that I could see. Like a character like a Diana or a Sylvie, somebody who we do know and have that history with what fits the, I'm a member of the common folk. Sylvie's a great candidate because she's said to aim and way back when it's the small folk like me who suffer. That I like because it gives us to check the boxes. and when we have an investment in our party, I think the shepherd has to be a commoner. - You would prefer that to them being manipulated by just a different lore, sort of like-- - I'm open to it if done well. Like the Alicent idea, there's something intriguing about that. - Right, absolutely, but-- - Web also said, I continue to think the shepherd could end up being Alicent. Her story is essentially finishing the book at this point and the show owners will almost certainly need to give her a substantial new arc, making her the face of the anti-dragon movement, but certainly accomplish that. - Like on the heels of, Alicent having this journey of, I don't want this, I just want to escape with my daughter, my daughter, big bathtub, and then on the heels of Helena's death saying, the only thing I can do now is cloak myself in the righteousness again. That's, I'm not interested in, I don't think that's what's gonna happen, but there's a version of that that I think could be interesting. Something like Sylvie feels, now I'm like, is that why Sylvie was back. - Interesting. I want to say, one more thing, which is like, I can say, oh, this should be a character we already know, you can't just introduce him in the final season, but at the same time, we just met Wormen and I'm deeply invested in Wormen and Darius and like that. So, if done well, you can certainly do that. I mean, this might be controversial. I, the high spare, Jonathan Price, the high spare, like never perfectly worked for me, so I'm just like a little worried about the shepherd in general. - Yeah, I always really liked Jonathan Price's high spare over all faith militant plot, but did not it. - Yeah, Jonathan Price is the best. - That's right. - So Horace is coming back soon. - Raina, Regency, or what? So, Tom wrote in to say, "If Raina can bomb a sheepstealer." - Yeah. - Well, she also be able to hatch mourning and bomb with her during the Regency. I think this comes down to what you guys discussed a few episodes ago. The showrunners don't plan to adapt the Regency, so why set up plot points, even if they are pretty integral to the story of Westeros and the Targs? Ironically, have set up certain characters who will be important during the Regency very well. Alan is obviously aged up, but the way he's being developed makes him set to be a key player for deckies as well, as then building a connection between him and Bayla. So, basically, I included this from Tom, 'cause obviously the Dragon Rider bond thing, they, with the whole seasmoke thing, seems like slightly less of a-- - On the one hand, they don't care about Dragon Lauren Cannon. On the other hand, sheepstealer would have to be dead. - There's, you can't have two dragons at once, unless they're, or can you? - Well, anyway, but sheepstealer dying, which would be sad, 'cause sheepstealer dead also, it's just like, and then they vanish. - So like sheepstealer could die, and then Rina going from, 'cause I first read this now, I was like, this is, it's impossible, but sheepstealer dying, which would be sad. And then Rina, who went from, my life is defined by Rina in the unfortunate, I have no dragon, to claiming a wild dragon never been done, and then having an egg hatched to her, and mourning being born as this like symbol for team Black as like the superior side, not uninterested. The show just being like, you can have two dragons, I think would not sit well with the fandom. - In terms of the like, Regency math, in terms of like, how long does the story continue after Rina or dies? Which is a question we've been debating in this Boiler section. - Yeah. - As you mentioned before, torn manually being here, feels like it could be an indicator that they're planning to do some of it, but like, I guess I think it'll be interesting to track like, what seeds are they planting that feel like they go beyond Rina, and then egg on death. Like, I do think we need to watch egg on die. - For sure. - I love the theories that like, Allison's gonna be the one to do it or whatever. Just have Gwayne and Allison, a high tower. - Just kill everyone. - Poison twins. - I love it. - Sounds really fine. - But like, I don't know, we don't have to do this right now, but just sort of like, in general, let's continue to watch sort of the, the characters that are introduced, the seeds that are planted are ongoing these Tyler and Lancaster are alive, like, debate, et cetera, et cetera, to see. - Even Lady Footly being here, one of the widows of Winter, those characters. So like, there is, it's a good shout in the email that there's a lot of like, these people who are going to be around, are here. - We're here now. - Craig and Stark. To your point, maybe that just means when we get a bunch of words on the screen, very quickly updating us, we're like, we know who those people are. - And they're like, and then Lady Footly, charged people to touch dragons, or to montage at the end, you just see Lady Footly being like, "Penny a touch." - Yeah. - That is increasingly what I think, honestly, the like, agon the third ascending moment, will kind of be given to us in, be like, "Oh, you know, Arya's on the prow of the ship." - Right. - Sansa, in the cloak of-- - Coronation. - Where would we use, like, I think we, I feel like we have to see Agon the Third there, but are we getting a bunch of like, how to run the realm after that? - A baby? - Probably not. - I'm excited, Joffrey's on his way to King's Landing, that's exciting. Good old Joff, what final predictions for whether they will have aged this child up? - Yeah. - I sure hope so. - He means to be like-- - There's so much older than this. - Holland is only five months pregnant. It's only been five months, but we got a new act, we've acted for John. - All right. And then, I don't know. Coral is trying to-- - I just don't know. - I don't know. - I just don't know. - How long can he possibly be sideline? It doesn't make sense. - What is he gonna do? - I have no idea. - I'm completely comprised of this to be honest. - Is he gonna, is he gonna, like, hook up with the rook's rest? - What? Like, is that possible? - Could be. - How? That seems like a possibility. - Yeah. - Okay. - 'Cause, like, the coastal-- - Yeah. - The stretch of time, I mean, you know, they're like, the, yeah. Lyres can't wait to get to Duskendale. You know, these ports, these port cities. That's, yeah, maybe. That's all I could get. I got nothing else. - Going out to the gaze at the decomposing body of Males, you know, and think about Rainies. I'll be pretty sad. - Sad. - Dear sweet sugar plum, Males, who never did anything wrong in her life. (laughing) - No, Males hasn't bought on her scale. God damn it. Still not over that. - All right, we did it. A half a third of the season said. Geez. Thank you to our team, our dragon riders. - Should I give you more of a response? It is sad, and I won't miss doing this with me. (laughing) - Carlos, Scott, Jamie is here today. - Jamie is here today. - Jamie's here with us today. What a treat, or Juno. Jomi, the whole squad. Join us again. Jacob's here. - Jacob's here. - Jacob's here. - Jacob is here. - What is I meant to have Jacob in? - Jamie is just an embarrassment for it just. - Absolutely. - My God. Join us for episode five of Talk to Throne. Sunday night immediately after the episodes. And then next. - CR is back. - CR is back. And then next week for the deep dive. And then please come to San Diego to see us at Comic Con. - Come say hi in San Diego. We'll see you soon. Bye. (upbeat music)