‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 3 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm joined, as always, by Joanna Robinson and building a world of her own construction that neither of us has stepped foot in. It's Mallory Rubin! We are here to break down the third episode of the third season of House of the Dragon right after this. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot and they've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at $49. Then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story. Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins is not prescribed Capylita Lumeteperone. This little item of mine In the dark found a hopeful sign I needed more from my antidepressant so my doctor added Capylita Lumeteperone proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone building on my progress without starting over. Capylita is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Capylita is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behavior, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Capylita. Learn more at Capylita.com or call 888-252-4824. You can listen to and watch Mal and Joe on this very house of our feed in which you are currently listening to and watching us. That's right. Correct. On Tuesdays, there will be a deep dive podcast about this episode. Yes. You can listen to me and watch me on The Watch with Andy where I talk about television and just kind of our left field take on podcasting. Pop culture. Yeah. One of my favorites, as you know. But I heard this episode of The Watch is going to be a doozy. It may have triggered something in Andy. Ooh. Appreciation. Wow. I hope everyone is having a great or is having a great July 4th weekend and especially Taylor Swift who may or may not have had something happen. We are going to get into the recap, not of that wedding, but of this episode right after this. Okay. I, he's stretching, folks. Tenterhooks. Something special is in store here. Goddamn, Rhaenyra. I didn't know I was working with Lady Macbeth over here. Wow. Wayne Jenkins, welcome to Talk to the Throne. What an absolute fucking privilege. Wow. Honor. Is that the entire recap? Yeah, that's it. We can go home early today. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and gone is the pest control of King's Landing. King, meet the new boss in many ways, same as the old boss. So, Rhaenyra. Yep. How was your first day at your new job? Well, my husband captured the wrong kid and kept egging me on to realize my fate as a world-conquering, person-burning demigod. Mm-hmm. My kingdom has no money, no grain, and nobody knows about gluten-free diets. My former father-in-law needs me to make up for his life of whoremongering. My ex-bestie is my prisoner and my wife. I am my tormentor. There are rats everywhere. I don't like the rich and don't trust the poor. Nobody seems to care about my coronation but me. And on top of it all, I am seeing ghosts and I have my period. How about you? It's a little character work. Corlys is her father-in-law, kind of, right? Sure, she was married to Laena. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's why I was just making sure. I am not joking that that is pretty much the episode and it is dazzling. The major plot points are Dame getting Ormund to bend the knee sort of. Dame also taking Ormund's ward Darren Targaryen sort of. There's a multi-generational, multi-directional tug-of-war going on for Rhaenyra's attention and influence with Missaria advocating for the small folk. Corlys advocating for his bastards. Daemon advocating for war and Alicent, along with the Dragon Seas, advocating for Rhaenyra to keep her promises. It turns out the treasury has been looted and the agribusiness is failing. The people are hungry and the rich are hungry. The rich feel overtaxed. Rhaenyra is distracted by the voices in her head seeking vengeance for her growing list of dead children and the voices surrounding the throne looking for fixes for the many problems of the kingdom. This electrifying first few days in office culminate when she makes what she thinks is a lenient decision to send the recently captured Darren Targaryen to the wall, allowing Alicent a chance to say goodbye to her estranged son. But when Alicent lays eyes on Darren, she betrays him in ways that this is not the droid she's looking for. And Rhaenyra realizes Orman Hightower has betrayed her, sent her a fake kid, and apparently taken Tumulton where Hugh's wife had fled and we're gonna get to that. The greens are still greening and the Dance of Dragons has a couple more rounds to go. And this is a short recap for my favorite episode of this series so far. Yeah, there we go. Is this the best episode of House of the Dragon? That is my personal take for reasons that I don't know but I would love to get into with the two of you. Let's do it, man. Number one, this felt different, right? Now, obviously, a lot of it is almost exclusively, except for, like, two or three scenes, a lot of it is told from Rhaenyra's direct perspective. In fact, characters are even shot from the perspective of Rhaenyra looking at them. Yeah. The tempo is fast. It's also a little bit addled, as is her POV, probably. So, you guys tell me, like, am I just high on the supply or did you think that this was something special and new from the show? I thought this was extremely special. This is, once again, writer Sarah Hess, director Claire Kilner, who joined forces on last week's episode, and Claire Kilner is directing next week's episode. So, it's like a three-episode run for Claire Kilner, who I praised to the heavens last week. I don't know whose idea it was to do something this. The word that they've been using is conceptual for this episode, but it is just something very different or inside the mind of one character for the most of the episode. The sound design and the score on this episode, the sort of, like, high-pitched whining. The rats always clawing. Yes, the rats squeaking, voices, you know, and sound bleeding in from one scene into the next. Like, you know, so we're just going, going, going. And as. I was just trying to think about, like, you know, we're watching Rhaenyra. She's stressed out. She's got a lot going on. Imagine if we had had something like this for Daenerys, like, in. Season four or something like that of Game of Thrones where it's just sort of, like, the pressures of the mind of a ruler, of our Targaryen, of our Targaryen ruler, and this episode just completely brought us inside of that. And I just think it's really impressive. You weren't similarly moved watching Dany hear petitions in Meereen. That didn't do quite what this episode did. I also loved this episode. I thought it was just absolutely riveting on the soundscape front that you cited. Also, like, the inclusion of clock ticks out in the world, but then the heartbeat in Rhaenyra's head. What a wonderful way to make us feel the kind of surreality and unreality of this moment, but also just the pressure creeping in. It reminded me. This whole episode, in terms of how it was structured and conceptualized, reminded me of something that Joanna and I have talked about. It is possible more than anything we have talked about over the years. I don't know if anyone is keeping track at home, but it is the thrill of my life to have the opportunity for us to talk about it with Chris. This episode brought to our screens like a seminal pursuit for George R.R. Martin. One of the ways that he talked about the story he wanted to tell in the first place, there are a couple things we like to talk about. One is conflict in the human heart. It's the only thing worth writing about, right? He likes to invoke Faulkner. But there's a famous George R.R. Martin quote from a 2014 Rolling Stone interview, and it is about your favorite thing, Chris. Lord of the Rings. Strokes? Okay. The Hobbit scenes in Lord of the Rings. Exactly. So, George loves Tolkien. He loves Lord of the Rings. But he's also like, here's what's different about my world. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question, what was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone, but all the orcs aren't gone. They're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systemic genocide and kill them? even the little baby orcs, we quote this all the time, in their little orc cradles. In real life, real kings had real life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass. It was the law of unintended consequences. I've tried to get at some of these in my book. My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king. This episode is that thesis statement rendered in full and beautifully. The visual of Rhaenyra sitting on the throne taking the petitions, we pan out wide. The barbs of the swords are encasing her like she's in a prison. That to me looked no different than the shots we've seen of a dragon in a pen. When she's taking, when everybody's coming to speak their peace to her, to ask her for petitions, she's scratching at the swords, which is exactly what- Took down her father, right? Like, didn't he get nicked by the chair itself, right? One could argue. One could argue. One could argue. Would one argue something else? Well, I really liked your new ruler, same as the old ruler, because we did have a very similar petition scene for Aegon in season two, episode one. We just have Corlys here instead of Otto being like, um, actually, you can't quite do that. And I'm sitting here being like, did none of these kids get how to be king schooled? You know, like- Yeah. This is the idea. And Rhaenyra was constantly complaining about this, but it's just sort of like, if either Rhaenyra or Aegon is meant to be the ruler, don't they need to learn that you can't hunt in the Kingswood or whatever the case may be? Like, you can't make these massive faux pas. And, you know, and then the repeated question throughout this episode of, what would your father do? Amazing. As if Viserys was this, like, phenomenal king. He had it all figured out. Which he wasn't. Which is just like the fondness of forgetting, right? Like, you're just like, well, we've forgotten what that was like. And Alicent's really the only person who seems to bring some institutional memory into the building. And she's absolutely can't be seen to be giving her any advice. Speaking of being seen, I thought that this episode, and it's so cool that the same partnership, creative partnership, did the previous episode in this one, was that when Rhaenyra kills Otto, Daemon says something like, they're all watching you. They're all watching to see what you're going to do. So it sets up this paranoia that not only is she like, I just became Quinn. Nobody seems to care. Like, nobody's like, fluffing me. Nobody is giving me diamonds. Nobody is telling me what a great job I'm doing. They want something from me. Yeah. And the idea also that she's like, everywhere I look, whether it's like the lady who's getting me dressed, the person who's making my food, the person who's supposed to be like keeping the candles from being eaten by rats, which I didn't even know was a thing. Yeah, the tallow. Great detail. They're all possibly from the old administration. Like, they used to work for the greens and they used to work on behalf of the Hightower power block that was in there. So really a fascinating way of setting up this person stepping into an absolute hornet's nest or rat's nest. I really agree with you with one exception, because I would say she's surrounded by people telling her what she can't do, what she's doing wrong, or Daemon saying you should be something else. Or reminding her what she said she was going to do. Right. And I feel like though Massaria does that a bit, Massaria and then Elinda Massey, the person that she has. Addressing Rhaenyra are the two people who are really pouring honey in her ear and really just sort of saying, and giving her a win at the end of the episode. And so that, in terms of like Rhaenyra's state of mind and who is helping her and who is hurting her, she's so vulnerable right now to persuasion or manipulation or paranoia. And so who can slide into rewatching that Aegon scene from season two, episode one, it's Larys in the wings watching Aegon sort of fumble his way through here and just slips in right after that petition to start pouring poison in his ear. Yeah. You know, and so like, who are, and Massaria is really like the front runner in this episode, but who are the users and the movers and the shakers who can take advantage of Rhaenyra being so unsteady in her first few days here? And when Larys went up to Aegon after Aegon heard the petitions in that sequence, the thing he did was try to create division between the idea of Viserys's legacy and what Aegon was going to do, because that was, that suited Larys. Yeah, to repudiate the privilege. So yeah, Otto was your father's man. Like he was too pliant. That was the word he used. The fact that Rhaenyra is in a similar circumstance, but the inversion of it, where she is like feeling this compulsion, internal and external, to reinforce the idea that she was her father's chosen heir by saying, I need to be worth the choice he made. You pair that with the violence that is unfolding with her god complex, which is different from Daemon's god complex, but they're both very dangerous. I was chosen by the gods and we are gods. That way lies madness for both of them and for everyone around them. I mean, that is incredibly dangerous way to think and way to hear. But part of the reason that Rhaenyra is talking that way is because she's thinking about the prophecy, right? Which Viserys told her, not Aegon. So she has inherited this familial burden and legacy, which is about protection. That's also given her like a completely like screwed up idea of herself. No question. She was born for something, much bigger than like, yeah. It's like, what could go wrong with being the chosen one? And the thing about the prophecy is it is about protecting the realm. Protecting, securing, ensuring. Is that the outcome of the war we're watching? Look around you in this episode after the Gullet or last episode after the Gullet. How could anybody talk themselves into that outcome? And so you have things like, should I kill this kid, my brother? It's pretty easy to argue either case, you know? I also think, in addition to all the things we're saying, this is, it's a funny episode. I was just going to say this. Witch House of the Dragon often misses the mark on. And, you know, we've praised, you've praised sort of like the Aegon Larys storyline. There's been a few bright spots of humor, but I think Emma Darcy is given a huge opportunity to be quite funny in this episode. Every time that- Alison is very funny. She's like, whatever she says where she's like, I can't be held accountable for everything Larys Strong has ever decided he might do. Like, if that's what you expect of me, I'm going to come up short here. But like in the, in the, the knighting the dragon seeds scene when Ulf is like Targaryen, absolutely not, you know? Or like speed running through a hole with Adam, you know, because she knows how controversial that's going to be. Or sitting down at the rat banquet and just being like, you know, a little later than I would have liked, you know, you all sort of coming to support me. So I just think that she's, this character gets to be lighter and funnier than we've seen her be, even as she's like kind of unraveling. We are not going to get, I imagine just because one was headed one way and the other is headed the other way, but like the brief James Norton, Matt Smith moment was worth its price in gold. I also thought that, yeah, like all of the Alison Rhaenyra stuff had like real human moments. And I think part of it that I think livened me up was a lot of walk and talks, a lot of Rhaenyra being introduced or confronted by a dozen people, half a dozen people. This is a woman who's been like kind of locked away for a while because they had to keep her in bubble wrap for the first part of this war, whatever it is. And I think that's kind of what I was thinking. Because so much of it is like, this was very quickly like gone over and then we moved on to a next thing. A small one that sticks out to me, when Alinda is dressing Rhaenyra and they're having the discussion, should it be jewels? No. Should it be a sword? No. Okay, a chain, right? Just there's like a quick little reach over for like a cracker, a snack. It's like, right, you'd be hungry. You're busy. You can't get through your Google calendar. And you're on your period. She's like, ugh, I'm bleeding like a horse. The period, like, this is a great, great little moment and choice on the show's part. It's a different version of the season one finale, Rhaenyra's council. They can't wait to start plotting the war while Rhaenyra is in childbirth, right? And this is like a monthly version of a king does not have to deal with this. The pain and cramps, the lean, the sweating, sitting on the throne, the special tea for relief brought in the middle of the small council meeting. That she's probably suspicious of. She's like, I don't know who made this. I don't know who mixed it, right? Like, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about Rhaenyra in the legacy of Targaryens, because to your point about whether or not this is the depiction of Rhaenyra is what maybe the character of Daenerys deserved was just like this kind of like detail and care instead of like, I've just lost it. And like, now I'm on a dragon and burning everything up. Spoilers for Game of Thrones. I was curious whether or not you thought the show did a good job and what you thought of Targaryen madness. Does that Targaryen madness like get essentially triggered by sitting on a throne? Or is it a dragon that makes them crazy? Or is it all the inbreeding? I'm sure that doesn't help. Because I thought it was cool how the performance and the depiction of the character changed with her proximity to the throne. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a great thought. I just like that there are certain moments in this episode, like the rat banquet, which I think is genuinely nice and great. But from the outside, people are going to be like, she served us rats. What a bonkers thing to do. So the Targaryen. Like, George R.R. Martin's depiction of the Targaryens is based on the Roman emperors who have this sort of reputation for madness, debauchery, all these other things. But, like, in the case of both the Targaryens and the Roman emperors, this madness thing, I think, is actually a bit overblown. Oh. It's my take. This is. What is that? This is why you're the goat. Targaryens, are we sure they're not saying. I'm not going to defend. Like, yeah, there are absolutely batshit Targaryens, but this idea that it's like a 50-50 flip of the coin, that's not the math at all. And it's like the thesis of Fire and Blood is who tells the history of these people, right? And so I was, as you came in earlier, I was like, I'm reading up on Roman emperors. Yeah, I was like, want to watch Belgium? And she's like, no. Incredible. So this comes like, who told the stories of the Roman emperors, right? And so this comes from the United Nations of Roma Victrix. Many of the most memorable stories about emperors came from writers who belonged to or sympathized with Rome's educated elite. Authors, and they name a few, preserved priceless material, but they were not neutral reporters in the modern sense. They wrote with literary aims, moral judgments, political assumptions, class prejudices, and sometimes a strong dislike of emperors who humiliated the Senate, upset traditional aristocratic privilege. So, like, that is when we're reading Fire and Blood, and George R.R. Martin's like, this septon said this, and we saw what the septons think. Septon thinks of Rhaenyra in this episode, right? She thinks they're like voodoo, basically. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or, you know, or this fool said this. Who is telling the story? And we've been talking throughout about the gender bias of that. These men are telling the story about Alicent and Rhaenyra as these two, like, bitch queens. And we're like, ah, actually they were that, but also women. It's like when you sum up this podcast, too. Like, what's all the girls all about? I would never. But if you're, you know, if you're wanting to tell the most salacious story, you highlight the madness. Of these rulers, you know. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's not there. This is a perfect storm for the god complex. Absolutely. Is there the sycophancy that you're surrounded by? All of that, of course, is stoking fires of paranoia and all these other things. But this whole Targaryen 50-50 madness, I'm out on this reputation. What do you think, Mallory? This is like an incredible version of the Grantland, you know, overrated, underrated, properly rated, colon, Targ madness from Joe. This is just like, this is what the blogging era was made for. I know. Greats right here. Two of the great internet era bloggers. I, you know, it pains me to say this, but as you were asking this question and throwing out this prompt, what popped into my mind, unbidden and unwanted, was Drogon burning the Iron Throne in the Game of Thrones finale. I had the same thought. Which, like, you know, I had a lot of PTSD. This is what hurt my mommy. Yeah, but I think your question is a good and interesting one. And it's like, there are all sorts of answers. And I think with the Targaryens, a dynasty that ruled for centuries on end and did all of these really unnatural and holy things to maintain not only that hold on power, but the thing that they got to champion as made, this makes us distinct, right? It's to stay on that Iron Chair, Iron Throne, right? Chair made of swords. So, like, they do it, as this show has made clear, in part because of this prophecy. Is there a chain of custody where that is lost along the way? It seems likely, right? And so then you assess it through a slightly different lens. But at the end of the day, whether it is the inbreeding from the incest that is contributing to the madness, which I think certainly it is, right? To Joe, this is NBD. No big deal. Two of the biggest incest supporters in the known world sitting right here in the studio today. Just to be clear, it's the two of them. It's those two. Incest doesn't help. That's, like, I think when Cersei invokes the god slip a coin Targaryen line. It's because she's thinking about the incest that she and Jaime committed and what it has maybe done to their children. The dragon riding, that's a magical bond. It makes them, like, gods. But also part of the reason that they're all fucking each other is because they want to keep the dragon riding line pure. They want to stay on the throne. It's all connected, right? I think the fact that the show gave us multiple characters saying versions of burn them all in this episode is there's just no way to say that's accidental. Oh, absolutely. So, like, they were all thinking about that. I got really excited when Rhaenyra's, like, burn it all. You know, Daemon, and he's, like, of all the things that made this episode memorable, the Daemon comedy, as you guys have both already said, it was just god-tier, like, chef's kiss excellence to watch Matt Smith work in this episode. Though I still say we should have incinerated them all. It's, like, casual for him. Just another day at the office and a thing we didn't get done that we should have, right? When he, like, walked away from Rhaenyra after they were talking up on the little battlementary and he's, like, still going to throw it out there once more, you should kill Daeron. Like, it's all casual for Daemon. It's easy for Daemon, right? Rhaenyra at the end saying, I will burn them all. As a fire is erupting from all of the Hightower heraldry and all of the trappings of the household usurpers, literally lit on fire, and then she hears about Dumbleton, she realizes that Ormund is a serious player in the game. Like, this is no joke, right? The Daeron thing, which we'll talk about more. That's not just a casual, like, that's not casual. He's a plotter. He's a schemer. He anticipated that they would come seek Daeron if he was prepared. It helps if you can just be like, I promise I'm going to take the Rose Road home. And nobody, like, checks on that. I have a lot of notes for Daemon on how he handled that. Leave one of those dragons behind. Have the dragon, who's right there, sniff the rider. Do a dragon-rider pairing test. Yes. Do some due diligence, Daemon. Yeah. Tesserion, the blue queen, is right there. Because he's thinking. He's thinking about other stuff. There's guys with wings out there now. Yeah, there's guys with wings on the edge of the world. You know what? He's on to the future. Leather wings. I think the question of, like, is the grief a road to the madness? That's another, I think, undeniable, like, Dany comment. Because while they fucked up Dany's arc in Game of Thrones, I think anyone, we are among the most critical people at the end of Game of Thrones. It was a botch. However, it's also true that the seeds were planted for Daenerys' madness from the beginning. It just wasn't well executed. It wasn't well executed at the end. Absolutely. And in the books, it's, like, it's so much more apparent. And if they had just sort of slow-rolled it instead of tried to, like, shock us all with it at the end of Thrones, that probably would have played better. Yeah, because it felt like she was, like, I've got my husband, and everything is all good, and now I've lost my mind because I, like, saw two things at the bottom. And then it's, like, Missandei was killed. Jorah was killed again. Spoilers. We apologize. Hopefully you've watched Game of Thrones. You should check it out. You know, everybody in the kingdom wants this dude to be on the throne instead of me. What if somebody was, like, I'm waiting 30 years for all the TV series to be made and then watching them in chronological George Martin order? Honestly, it sounds like a really fun way to spend a couple weekends. A couple weekends. Yeah, you can get through a solid, like, 14 episodes in a Saturday if you put your mind to it. Mallory is the queen of the binge. No one has ever done it better. That's why she's, like, are they still playing soccer? Do they have commercials? The moment you talked about on the battle, man, we kind of jump around here for, you know, for the rest of the pod or whatever, but the battleman scene was really cool to me because. I love them switching between High Valyrian and, quote, unquote, English or whatever. The common tone, yeah. I also loved this idea, like, you know, the show doesn't have the advantage or disadvantage of whatever the books, the source material is, which is, like, stated in its concept that it's, like, multiple POVs. Like, it's multiple narrators telling you, like, this might have happened, this might have happened, there's disagreement about this. According to this person, yeah. So the show is, like, this is the definitive version of what these characters are doing. Sure. That being said, that kind of moment of between the two of them gives you an idea of how different characters would see the world anyway. And if these two people are speaking in such almost, like, mythological, world historical terms about who they are, who their family is, where they came from, what almost destroyed them, and where they want to go, it has nothing to fucking do with any of the people eating rat at the table. I was going to say, meanwhile, the rats are eating the candles. You know what I mean? I mean, like, but that almost, in a way, if I can keep going with, like, this idea, she should listen to Damon. Oh, interesting. Do you think so? Because, like, you've got to commit to a bit. You can't be, like, a Targaryen democratic socialist. You have to be, like, I am a Targaryen. Counterpoint, Damon. We are going to the moon. Counterpoint, Damon walked up to Orman and was, like, the war has ended. Is that true? Is that true? Does Damon seem like he's on top of his shit? They could be in Dorne tomorrow. Mallory. Yeah. A honeymoon in Dorne. I knew you were going to come out riding for Damon's steaks in this episode. I just think that, I mean, like, take me to the winged men. That's what I want to see. I don't know. I was kind of watching that saying, Damon has some points. I mean, Damon always has some points. He's the best character. He's amazing to watch. When she's like, we're broke. And he's like, why are we broke? Tyland hid the money. Okay. Let's go get other money. You know, like, why are we broke? I want to ask one more Targaryen question. This one brings Alison in because I thought that the scene between Rhaenyra and Alison, where she's like, well, what did you do when you had all these petitioners? And what do you think my father would do? And Alison's response, which I referenced in the intro about your father constructed a world of his own that neither of us ever stepped in. Tell me, give me your read on that line. This is one for casuals. I think, like, that's several years ago now in my mind that I've saw Viserys last, kind of. So it's any kind of refresher. Do you feel like Alison was saying the Viserys you knew? You was not the real Viserys? Do you feel like she was saying, this is a guy who had to build little models and abdicate his dragon? writing power because he was so scared of what he could be. I mean, how did you read that line from her? When she says a world of his own construction that neither, neither of us have set foot in. Yeah. It was like the Lego set was really big, but not big enough to literally walk into. Is that part of it? Or is it a gendered thing? I think it's a gendered thing. I think it's just sort of because Viserys is a man, even though he like didn't have his dragon and, you know, was quite ineffective in many ways, history will remember him as a great king because he didn't have to be questioned constantly. Whereas Alicent was shut out of rooms and Rhaenyra was shut out of rooms. I just think that's simply, you know, elsewhere in the episode, will you blame me only for what men have done? Like this, this is the language that they're speaking here. And it's just sort of like Viserys is allowed to be a doddering old dude with his Legos because he was a man and like Rhaenyra can't serve a few rats to some nobles who deserve it. Did you guys have a moment where you're like, oh, okay, at least like a lovely pile of some sort of grain, rice, quinoa, couscous. And then it's like, oh, is that? I'm just glad she didn't serve the rats family style. Are they maggots? They were wriggling. Were they wriggling? No, they were fried. She threw those in a broiler. Like they were, they were, there was. Are they maggots? I thought it was couscous. I thought it was a side dish couscous or maggots. No, I thought there was some caramelization on the rats. The rat looked, like if the rat looked survivor of the rat, you'd eat that. I would definitely eat that rat. I would eat that rat. I would like to see the head, feet and tails removed personally, but. You just want torso. I would like thigh and breast. Not on a bed of maggots. That's the deal breaker for me. But if it was on a bed of like pearled, herbed, pearled couscous. Yeah. A little garnish. There's some nice protein on that bone. And as he said, we are looking for a gluten-free diet here in the kingdom. Our own, our own Torrin Manderley. It's like. I love. Nice move. I love this introduction of Torrin Manderley. That was great. Chris, your questions are always wonderful. They're real doozies today. Like I think that on the Alice in Front, just in case we don't come back, I just want to quickly say Helena is in these, in the first, the first scene too, right? And then Madeline. Does that make you feel better about Jace? I just think it bears mentioning and remembering for all of us that Helena's son was also killed. In front of her, his throat was slid as in his bed. Right? So, you know, we're all keeping tally. You're in your bag today with the calls. Do you think that's why Helena's like, I don't want to be in here, in that room? I mean, maybe that wasn't the room. That was like where their nursery was. Yeah, they were. Yeah. I don't know. I was like, that's like problem number 90. She's like, you're going to get to see Jahara for an hour every three days. You'll get some visitation privileges and you'll get to go to the godswood. Alice is saying you may not rule and remain yourself to Rhaenyra. I love, it kind of connects to what you're asking and to what you're saying. Like there is a kind of, if you're a king, you were raised to do this and it's like inherent in your nature. There's also a read on it that power corrupts anybody, that nobody could remain the hold on to the pure way that they want to do it. Right. But Alison has that experience that she's sharing. What did this do to her to be thrust into these situations? Even the moments when she sought it actively, the ones where she didn't, it was weaponized by her father or people around her. I thought it was so effective that it was like presented as it wasn't a threat. Like this is what's going to happen to you. It was inevitability. Right. There was this like nihilistic sense of own prophecy. Yes, exactly. Yeah. It's a beautiful way to put it. And it was so haunting as we talk, as Rhaenyra opens the episode, talking about the ghosts and feeling the ghosts. It's like, well, what, how did they all become ghosts? What choices did these people make and what happened to them? Right. And some of it is like, oh, this kid with curly hair is walking down the hall and happens to look like Jace. Shout out Harry Collette. Paid for three episodes at least. I was happy for Harry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But on the Viserys front, I was like, I don't know. I think it made a lot of mistakes. Right. And I think that his inability to make a firm decision put allowed the dance to happen. It's not even a thing. Period. Right. Yeah. So he is not blameless. And frankly, the fact then that Rhaenyra is sort of starting to like deify his memory is wrapped up and entwined with this whole like, what image do we paint and want to convey? I thought that Daemon's word choice of renounce for like renounced his dragon was. Right. More fascinating than I can like properly articulate in the podcast. He rode Balerion the Black Dread. Like that is the dragon that Viserys claimed. The most fabled dragon in Westerosi history. He rode him around a few times. Balerion was a couple centuries old. And a year later, he died. And that's it. So a dragon king for the bulk of his life had no dragon. But wasn't it also that Viserys was like scared by that flight and didn't go back on the dragon? Right. There's this question of like when Daemon is saying he feared the power and Rhaenyra is calling him a dragon. And he's like, I don't know. I don't Nira is calling back to that, you know, opening stretch of the series that we've talked about many times on the pod, like a power men should never have trifled with, like the idea that we could control dragons, that hubris we've discussed. That's what brought Valeria its doom. Viserys was a student of history. The Lego sets we like to joke about, it's old Valeria. He's thinking about the doom of Valeria, the downfall, the reason the Targaryens are the only dragon riding family is because a Targaryen, Daenys the Dreamer, had a prophetic dream. And by the way, on the what can sometimes lead to madness, prophetic dreams, they don't help. They don't help, Chris. But their doom is like a near biblical disaster. Yeah, it's a cataclysm. And they knew it was going to happen and escaped. That's right. One of them saw it. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So there's all of this in the mix. Like, you know, Viserys has this clarity when he's. But back on old Valeria, we're like, did the Johnsons have dragons too? There were other dragon riders and the Johnsons are like, we're going to stay put. We don't believe in your stupid dream. We love the view of the 14 flames. Yeah. And the Targaryens are like, we're going to take our dragons and just like hop, skip and jump over the bay and then doom. Okay. Yeah. So was it wisdom for Viserys to fear the dragons, to fear the idea that these rulers could control them, the hubris of thinking you could? I think that even though I put a lot of blame on Viserys's doorstep, there's real wisdom. And I love a dragon. There's real wisdom in that, that more of these characters would do well to heed. That is a wiser thing to say than Daemon saying, you will have an empire unassailable and our children will rule it forever in a day. Yeah. But he saw a silver haired character with dragons at her breasts in his prophecy. And he's like, that's our line. Yeah. That comes from us. We are gods. Little did he know that a Baratheon is on the throne when that happens. And then a Stark will wind up on the throne at the end of the day. Dragons have been gone. Yeah. Shag here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shag. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shag. Hey, have you always been so big, tall and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shag. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. 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And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. shop holiday in store or at ulta.com ulta beauty you mentioned helena saying like i can't be in this room yeah one of the really cool underlying themes of this episode was how everybody's personal pain is special to them but does not make it special to other people and so renero kind of like walking around and everybody's being like hey my wife's missing or hey like i gave up everything to get you here now i need you just to sign some paperwork that changes the last name of my sons or allison being like did you did you think about that before you beheaded my my father you know and you know Allison's situation where she is not particularly mourning her father and is almost like I don't really know what to do with this Darren kid I haven't seen him in years like he's not really I don't really feel a connection to him but sure I'll go check him out before he goes to the wall but also he was like the one good boy yes right like Eamon and Aegon suck she's like Helena my bug that's too far for her my adult bug daughter she has not built up an Eamon and Aegon right case yet But Darren, so can we just say, we think we've seen Darren this season. There is a redheaded squire hanging around Ormond in the first episode. And we think that's probably Darren. I was distracted by all the perfume stuff. Absolutely. There was like a boy that the camera like lingers on and is right there. And like, it was very weird. You asked us about Darren last week and we were like, I don't know, have we seen him? They didn't announce who was playing him. and we were all very confused, and it was just so they could pull off this-- - And there are a couple of characters that are big deals historically in Thrones, and specifically in this series, that it's like, are we gonna see this person or this character? - Yeah, but he's a dragon rider. It just felt so bizarre that they wouldn't do it, and they showed us his dragon last season, and so it was really weird that they had announced him, and that's because they were doing this little bait and switch thing, but we think, and I think this is why the minute Alison walks in the room and she sees the blonde head, she's like, "Wrong kid, this kid kid actually has red hair like me, like my, like Gwaine, you know, like a lot of the Hightowers are redheads. And so we saw a redheaded boy. Interesting. Or he does have the signature hair because why would Ormond have dyed it that color thinking it would fool them? But maybe it's part of the bit is like, they don't know who this fucker is. I had to respect this on the show's behalf. Like we were really baffled by the wait for Darren, as Joe noted, a dragon rider of consequence, not being in the story for this long. Season three is killing it so far. That remains an incredibly perplexing choice, I think. However, here we are, Ormond, the Hightower army, to Sarian, Darren, fake Darren, Farron for my Fagon, young Griff heads still waiting for young Griff on TV. A lot of people are at home like, yeah, you don't know, but they are. There was a character named Agon in the books that, that people thought was fake. So they called him Fagon. So she's saying Farron. Not Agon too. No, that was like something we were waiting for. Because this is obviously like, she's like, let's just call it, say he's dead. And they're like, okay. And if he comes back, we'll just say he's an imposter, right? Like that was her. Oh, the burned Agon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody knows what he looks like. Yeah. But he's Agon the second? Agon the second, yes. The fact that when Darren is finally here in the story, the show was like, we're going to wink at how long we made you wait and make you wait a little longer with a fake, because this fake Darren thing doesn't happen in the text. This is a show invention. I just really kind of admire the chutzpah. I think it's really fun. I thought it was really fun. And also a super, super good way to lean into the hilarity of these characters not knowing each other. Like to Joe's point about Alison saying like, well, he was, isn't he like the one who turned out okay? When she asked Gawain that last season, like, what's Darren like? What's my own son like? It was so heartbreaking for her to confront the idea that, you know, and she read this. He's the thing that made him turn out okay growing up away from me. That was a question Alison asked Gawain, right? It was heartbreaking. So there's all of that. But Damon's like, well met nephew. And then Rhaenyra flat out introducing herself to, again, wrong character, not actually him, but her brother. And she doesn't know it's not her brother. I'm your sister. I'm our father's chosen heir. It's not him. This is, this is deliriously good. It's also really funny because like Rhaenyra, by all accounts, is like actually kind of a good mom. And so she's so awkward with this kid because she's like, I might have to kill you in the morning. Right. You know, there's all of that. You thought it was weird when she watched him sleep for like four hours and picked up his various things. Yeah. And then she's like, I'm your sister. I'm your father's like bird carvings and thought about whether to kill him. Mere minutes. It was also, it was kind of, every time she talked to him, it was so awkward. She was kind of patting herself on the back for this wall idea. She's just like, I'm such a visionary. Like we're going to get you out of here. Right. And then she gets up there and it's just like, all that was for, I should have just lit you on fire. On the point of, of, uh, they don't know each other. The one thing I want to say about that fake Darren reveal scene though, that I loved is that Alison walks in and from the wrong kid. Yes. She knows Alison. Oh, she can tell. Like the back of her head. Not that like Olivia cook was doing like very subtle facial expression, but like a Rainier was immediately like, Oh, wrong kid. Got it. It's I loved that character beat up in terms of their relationship. I always, I also liked the character be for Alison, just the choice. She could not reveal the truth there. Yeah. That's a decision. That kid to the wall. Yeah. She could preserve the cover, but she doesn't because her goal still is to get the fuck out of there with Helena and if Rhaenyra finds out that that's not really Darren and that Alison knew and didn't tell her it's a wrap for Alison. So she has to make the decision to reveal the treachery of her own cousin and her house thus leading Rhaenyra to go seek out the real Darren. Like the complexity of that is really, really, she's almost being like a method actor pragmatist. It's like in the moment this works in the moment I can be sort of like Rhaenyra's weird quasi confidant and be a little I also happen to know that, you know, a gun is somewhere out there, right? Like she knows that. Yes. Yeah. And that the high tower army is still out there and like all this stuff is still going on. And I also know Rhaenyra said she would let me go and she didn't. Right. You know, and so she rightly calls her out on. Yes. You know, so there's a lot going on when I brought up that thing about like everybody's pain, especially them. I thought the best example of this was the Corliss scene, which was a wonderful moment from Steve Toussaint, who like has had to just stare at the sea a lot in the series and be very stoic. And this breaks him because he's finally decided to anoint these two guys as his his heirs after his family has been through so much and he's lost his essentially his like seat of power and his riches and everything he worked for in his life and most of his fleet and all this stuff. And he's like, this should be easy. All you got to do is just call these guys. Yeah. And that would be awesome. And then we know you don't have a problem giving a different last name. And kids, we've seen you do it. Talk me through. First of all, there's an obvious overtone of like racial prejudice being suggested in the dialogue. But I don't necessarily know whether the characters would necessarily be be talking about that. Right. Like, is he saying the line that he uses? Say aloud to me why your children deserve what mine are denied. So she can't say it aloud other than optics. You know, what's that about? Well, so Joffrey, who's who's the last remaining kid that she had with Lainor? Sure. Exactly. Yeah. Just so she's like fetch Joffrey. He's next in line. Right. So there's one more strong son of Harwin Strong. Raina is supposed to be babysitting in the veil. He's he's in the he's up in the veil with your axes. She was supposed to go with the blonde babies with Damon and Damon's kids on the gay abandon of the cog abandoned. But yeah, so I like the read of of racial overtones here. And this is also just sort of like what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Like what can royals get away with that that Valerians for all their riches, for all their everything are not allowed to do. I love this bind that it puts Rainer in because, again, there's just like no real winning for Rainer here. Like at home, we're screaming like Corliss has supported you, of course. And we like Adam and Alan like with Dragon Riders. I mean, from your left and right. Yeah. But for Corliss to not only confront her about this, but confront her in such a public place where there are people right out of frame who were listening to him scream bastards, which to bring up Vamond. Dude, this is the thing, right? He Viserys is like anybody who calls them bastards gets their tongue cut out. Yeah. And then Damon caught Vamond's head off for shouting this exact same thing. And the gold cloak is standing right there. Yeah. Yeah. Luther looking great. But where he's like, well, like that puts him in a tough spot. So she doesn't like kill Corliss, nor should she, I guess. But like he's screaming bastard in such a public place. And like all of this is being carried out so publicly, as we mentioned, which is like such a difference between what she's had to deal with in the past. Yeah. Where she had three members of her council at Dragonstone who couldn't be bothered to like help her out. And now there are people. To the detriment of the show, I thought, where it was just like she's just walking into this room and being like, move this piece here and now I'll go back to my chambers. And now she's just like hopping over rats and doing all kinds of things. So to the no good choices point and the number of moments and character sets and scenarios that applies to so like with Darren, it's like, OK, you think of the you are the challenge Allison to egg on moment from season one. And like, that's true. He is a challenge. The case to kill him is clear. Then you think of no man is as accursed as the Kinslayer. The case not to do it is clear. Plus everything she says. The Corliss situation, like I was thinking of the evolution, the ebbs and flows less than evolution for Rhaenyra here because for Jace, for the kids, for Rhaenyra, you mentioned Viserys and his reaction to it. The idea that anybody would publicly imply or outright state that Rhaenyra's children were bastards was such a source of security, anxiety, fear, outright treason, right? But when Rhaenyra got into this, the gods have chosen me. Seasmoke and Adam appeared and it told me the gods think I'm the one. And now every choice I make, I will justify through that lens. Part of the thing she said, heading into the Red Sewing, which up to the dragon math, but at great bloody cost, was well then, let us raise an army of bastards because it was what Rhaenyra needed in the moment. And the Red Sewing was when Hugh and Ulf ended up claiming their dragons. And a lot of people died, right? So let us raise an army of bastards. It was this big turn from the thing that she had feared and tried to shy away from and suppress to fuck it. Wear it like armor and lean in because it's gonna make us stronger. Now we've swum back because she's in the Red Keep on the Iron Throne. If Corlys, the Velaryons are the most important ally for Rhaenyra, period, right? If the Velaryon fleet had not just been decimated and the gold that Rhaenyra needed was still available and Corlys' whole household hadn't just been sacked and burned, does she have the gall to say this to him? To make that choice? Whether the fear is justified or not, I don't think so. And then there's this larger question that Jo has been tracking since the minute the show started Rhaenyra's bad at diplomacy Team Black is bad at diplomacy Rhaenyra. Except for Jace, R.I.P. I know, he was good at it! Jace with the twins, the highlight reel Rhaenyra deciding to feed the common folk, the small folk. Good! Great! We applaud it. Rhaenyra doing that by feeding rats to lords and ladies and then being like fuck it, they're just kind of mid? How many times. How about Rhaenyra walking around being like, who gives a shit who has Harrenhal? Like, I have. Yes! - Chris is like, I understand how important Aaron Hall is. It's just like, that's a wild thing to just shout. Right. And then give it to Alice. Yeah. Who asked for it. And this gets, this is this through line and theme we've been tracking of like, Corlys are really important ally. Your hand. Yeah. The hand of the queen. The hand of the queen wants this thing. You don't care. What you need is more important than what he needs. Hugh chases Rhaenyra up the stairs and is like, what about my living and my wife and the things you promised me? You know what's so funny about Hugh Hammer, my guy, is when you rewatch season two, episode one, the petition scene for Aegon, it's Hugh Hammer showing up and being like, can I get paid? That's right. And here he is once again being like, hey, can I get paid? Like, can someone fucking pay me, please? Ulf, like. Did they offer Ulf Harrenhal? Does Daemon offer Ulf? Daemon makes a fucking joke about giving him Harrenhal. He's like, do you want, no, about, about Oldtown. He's want the Hightower seat. The Hightower seat. Like, fuck off. He does actually want a castle. That's been made clear. He's like, um. He's like, uh. Oh, and the name of Targaryen. That was so Viagra. It was hysterical. Alice wanted Harrenhal. It made me think, and Rhaenyra even uses the language in this episode, like, remind them, which is how she, lost her the Baratheons in season one, in the fateful Aemon Luke sequence. That's how Luke got killed, right? Yeah. He was like, she doesn't, you're, you are fucking killing it, Daemon. But Boros Baratheon was like, she doesn't get to talk to me this way? Yeah. Like, so Rhaenyra taking for granted the pledge, it made it extra delicious that Ormen bent the knee, swear it in oath. I don't know if you've heard, Jo. They make you swear. Swear and swear. Swear and swear. Well, also, didn't Ormen say one's as good of another as another? Oh, yeah. King wise. He doesn't give a shit about this ceremony. He doesn't care, but also, what good is anybody's word if you can't recognize a traitor from somebody who's actually loyal to you and you don't know how to tend the person you should be tending? Like, they're not taking care of their people. I also think the, like, absolute, like, Ava Peron imagery of Rhaenyra giving out, like, a rutabaga to, like, starving people. It's like, she's like, here. Potato, you know? You're safe. That scene actually, it felt like a little bit of, like, I don't really, this episode's, like, over budget. We don't have enough for, like, a lot of extras, but it actually worked that, like, 40 people showed up for this big Rhaenyra rally, and they were like, gee, thanks. You know, like. She also had just, like, one cart of dry goods. I was like, what are, you know, and there's, like, five gold cloaks sprinkled about or whatever. Yeah, and members of the faith watching on the heels of that. The way that she treats Corlys, the way that she humiliates Adam, in a way, I mean, like. No question. Yeah. The way Daemon nearly beheads Ulf in knighting him. That was so funny. Letting him know. That was really funny. Where he's like, okay. That was so good. All of that goes back to that battlement conversation where he's like, we're not like them. Like, we are special. Like, it's Targaryen exceptionalism. It's ubermensch weirdness, and it's like, even if these people have dragons, they're not the same as us, and I, you know, like, that doesn't seem like it's going to work. Well, you know. Yeah. It's a good flag. Can I go back to your guys, James Norton, Orman Hightower? Oh, yeah. Please. The fact that, the thing is, he had this fake kid ready. Yeah. Like, he's just 200 steps ahead of these dumb and bred Targaryens, and I'm just, like, really excited for, I thought the plot was really funny and fun, but it's also just, like, a great introduction to this character. He hates smelly things. He looks great in his armor, and he's fucking smarter than the rest of us. Speaking of that, the kid who played Jusaris getting the episode fee for showing up as a ghost in 3, James Norton has had to walk out of two tents and be like, okay, and then he's just like, James Norton. Which brings me to map time. Sure, map time. I do think we should just, because the episode concludes with this great cliffhanger of Orman has gone back on his word, really, like, just was unmonitored. He never meant to stick to that. Right. Yeah. He was like, let's go back on the Rosewood. Everybody knows that I'm being serious about this. He has taken Tumulton. Yes. Tumulton is where they keep the dragons, correct? No. Okay. There just happened to be a dragon keeper who was the. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was really weird. I was confused when that guy showed up, and he was like. I think it was, like, so they could speak Valyrian. I don't know. I don't know why that was. He had so much soot on him. I was like, oh, was he just, like, trying to. He was quite soot. He was a dragon keeper. Yeah. Okay. But that's not where the dragons. No. We're going to do a brief map time, and I would like to apologize to the audio listeners of this podcast. I will speak in cardinal directions this time. We've added something to the map. I don't know if this is able to be seen, but I will speak into the microphone. The orange is Tumulton. It is southwest of King's Landing. Oh, a little bit off the water. Yeah. Well, on the headwaters of the Mander. On the headwaters of the Mander. It is the last sort of leal, you know, outpost between King's Landing and where the High Tower is. Okay. So, sort of a Rehoboth, you know, like, near the Chesapeake. So, it's. Oh, my God. Love that mid-Atlantic geography. Great stuff. The controversy last week. Joe last week was like, should we map this onto England? I just want to say, I rarely read the comments. Many people in the comments say the Camden-Philly-Park-Barrison was good. Yeah. Because they're right next to each other. And Baltimore and DC are further away. I have a filter that only agrees with me. It's not true, though. Anyway. Regardless. Tumulton is a. Is a town. There's a ton of, like, innocents there. Yeah. And they've taken a dragon and a dragon rider, who they have inside the town. Darren. Darren and Caesarian. Inside the town. And the High Tower people, and he's got thousands of troops. Right. 15,000, yeah. 15,000 troops have taken the city. And so, it has given them an outpost right next to King's Landing. Yes. That Rhaenyra cannot, like, burn him out of because to burn him out of there is to burn a bunch of innocents. Can you grab the map again? Because I just want to do a. I just want to do a quick reset of where various armies are. Sure. I mean, this isn't helpful because this is the beginning of last week's episode. I should have made you a new map. I think Criston Cole and the Rapists are still up north by the gauze. They sure are. Right? Yeah. And the. Yeah, they were closing the last stretch to Harrenhal after seeing Aemond and Vhagar fly over. So, I know that this is not an actual, like, two-scale map, but. Certainly not. She has now got forces on her north and south. Yes. And Aegon is over. She doesn't know where Aegon is. But Aegon. Right. Okay. Aegon and Larys are over here, north of King's Landing on the coast, heading for Rook's Rest. And then she's got Starks or, like, that other army that. The garrison. Yes. But they were burned at Harrenhal. No. No, not all of them. They left a few people behind, but most of them are marching down to King's Landing. Yes. Daemon sent them to march to meet them at King's Landing. So. We've got some tension. So, the point being is, like, the three. The three biggest targets for her are the three male heirs to the throne. Aemon and Vhagar up in Harrenhal. But she does. Does she know Aemon and Vhagar are at Harrenhal? Yes. Aemon and Vhagar are up in Harrenhal. Well. Aegon, wherever he is. They do say they don't know where. In this episode, which I thought was interesting. Oh, at large. Yeah, they do say they don't know. We know that Vhagar and Aemon meet at Harrenhal. That's a great point. They say Vhagar is. They're like, where's Vhagar? We're a sheep stealer. There's a couple of things in this episode that I think the viewers know that the characters don't. Correct. Fair. So, they're trying to find Aegon's body. They know Aemon's left. Yeah, and Alyson's like, just say he's dead. He's burned. No one will ever be able to, like, identify him. Like, don't worry about it. We replied to Rhaenyra there. It was like, even now, you're bargaining for his life. I know. Like, that is what I would have said in that moment. Sorry. I don't know, but I think it's a pretty good solution. It is a good. And then, that was the great. Actually, the great part was that Rhaenyra's like, how dare you suggest that? And then immediately did it. Yeah. Because Alyson's just more reliable than, like, most of her counselors. So, the point is, Aemon and Vhagar are. They went north. Whether or not they know they're near Harrenhal, I guess they don't, even though Vhagar is massive and parked outside Harrenhal, but okay. Aegon, Sunfyre, Long of the Dying, at large, but, you know, to the east of them. And then, Daeron and Tessarion to the south of them. And Rhaena, who they don't know is the sheep stealer rider. Correct? And they're actively hunting for. Don't worry. I'll take care of it. They have. Be Arthur? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, Dorothy's more like. Sends Bela in this episode out to scout, right? For sheep stealer. By the way, the moment where, like, Bela and Rhaenyra pass each other in the hall, no words exchanged. Clearly, Rhaenyra's like, you were there when my son died, and it should have been you. And that's part of why I was willing to send you out, and I wasn't. She said that last week. She's like, you're to blame, too. You know? Yeah. So, like, that's a source of tension. Uh, is there anything else that the characters don't know that we do? I'm trying to think. I don't think so. I think the sheep stealer one was the big one. And where is Vhagar? And where is Vhagar? Yeah. And Aegon is alive. And Daemon kind of being like, this wacky old midwife up in Harrenhal. Yeah. That was such an incredible, like, don't tell on yourself moment. Yeah. I was cracking up. She's crazy. You know, I think I've met her once. It's like, oh, um. I did think it was sweet that Daemon. He looked really sad about Simon. He did. He looked. He was like, oh, shit. Simon got God. That's a bummer. We really bonded over, like, the venison and the currents. But, yeah, then to immediately be like, um. There's a lot going on, I know. But, like, does anyone have an update on, like, this one chick who happened to be there? It was nuts. That was crazy. Though, on the flip side, very sweet that Rhaenyra can't sleep because of all the ghosts. Goes and curls up in Daemon's bed and they're all interlocking fingers. And he, like, lifts his arm for her. I was really thinking. I thought it was very sweet. Both of you love incest. When I saw that moment, I was like, I get it. That was very sweet. So, we leave this episode. Tumbleton has been taken. she wants Damon to go to the Vale to get coin from Jan with some money, but presumably. Ruh-roh, sheep stealer's there. Sheep stealer's there. It's worrying. Yeah. And then everything else is just basically topsy-turvy in the kingdom. I will also say that. And we have not seen the scenes from next week, so we don't. No, we have not. We don't know, but I will say that we got immediate. You know, our question was sort of like, last week we saw Massari and Damon sort of jockeying for Rhaenyra's ear and just, like, immediately hear they're in the small council room just sniping at each other. Yes. I mean, fuck you, Keltigar. And great, because they're, like, on this, like, crazy political spectrum. Like, it's kind of fun to watch them. It's just incredible that Damon's like, who's us? Do we have time for one more topic before we get going? We have time for as much as you want, man. The seven. Oh, the septons. Priest, the septon, needing. I mean, this was great because this was so Henry-like needing to basically, like, be like, I'll break away from the church if I have to. She didn't actually. She didn't actually say that, but there's echoes of that in the same way of yours. You've made yourself very clear. I thought that was awesome. Yeah. The tension between old gods and new are obviously, like, very present in Thrones. Her basically being like, I need you to co-sign this and, like, basically, the people need to see that you guys are all behind me and him being like, well, technically, like, you know, we have not done. Yeah. We need an autopsy. We need a coroner. Times have not hit, you know? Bong, bong. Yeah, but he's also like, you're a rule. Where's the body? Yeah. Show me a body. Where's Tylan Lannister? I mean. How come she can't just be like, here's a pile of ashes. That's Aegon. Oh. Maybe. Like you said, we haven't seen the scenes for episode four. She should just burn a bunch of rats. Yeah. And she's like, maybe that's what'll happen. That's him right there. Also, on the is Tylan Lannister alive front, I will say, I'm defrosting a bit on this because I was like, we don't know. They're doing something here that we don't know. So I don't have a book answer for you whether or not Tylan Lannister is alive or not. We saw him go in the water. He was wearing a bunch of armor. I was like, that guy's dead for sure. We thought that about Corlys. But like, in this episode. You think Tylan's out there with the triarchy? Well. Pretending to be triarchy? Yes. Someone says, surely he died, you know? And I was just like. That guy's alive. I was like, uh-oh. That guy's alive. I think he might be alive. So when the Green Council made its move in the penultimate episode of season one, Tylan was like, don't worry, guys. I divided the coin. So the idea that we know from season one is that he put the gold in more than one place. That's also good to remember because for a second I was just like, did Laris steal all this money? Like, I couldn't remember who took. Laris has bragged elsewhere about taking the Harrenhal coffers into his control. So there's a lot of money in different places. On the High Septon front, we should just say quickly because. So this, as is discussed in this scene, this member of the faith was there for Aegon's coronation. At the end of season one, he's the one who anointed him. At the time, there was this question and then again, when this guy walked in the scene, I was like, is this Septon Eustace who is one of the main sources and narrators in Fireblood? It's not. Just in case anybody's wondering, his character name is High Septon Ballman. Doesn't mean Eustace isn't out there kicking around, stirring shit up, but this is not Eustace in case anyone is wondering. It's not a question that I prepared you for nor is it one that I expect you to just be able to like. But the seven is what Jonathan Price's character was in Thrones. And so they Yes, High Sparrow. go through different periods of being central and exiled to society then? I don't think they're ever exiled. It's just sort of like how prominent they are or how prominent can, like, how powerful is the Pope at any given time? There's always a Pope, but how powerful is the Pope? Yes, and yes, and there, and does he root for the Chicago White Sox? Is he American? Is he pretty dope, actually? Sometimes you get a rat's ear. Actually, history, I thought the scene did a good job of reminding us because we move across not just our real-life timeline, but the canonical timeline. And so what we have witnessed, High Sparrow, shout out, it's great, that's in the future. It's not a lesson Rhaenyra can heed, but there are lessons from the past between the Targaryens and the faith that Rhaenyra should be thinking about. This thread is issued in this episode for a reason, to remind Rhaenyra, seriously, like, don't fuck with us. And you used the term Targaryen exceptionalism before, like, the doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism, the Targaryens and the faith have basically, like, bargained to allow the Targaryens to fuck each other, but the faith has always been like, you guys are unholy and foul and wrong and we're not for it. So when the faith militant of the four fellows. But we don't want to be barbecued by your dragons, so, okay, go ahead, do your. Or fed rats. Do your incest, I guess. But if there's not, if they're not getting money coming in, if there's a political lever for them to pull. This is something that Rhaenyra should be taking seriously because many times the Targaryen, across both in the past and the future, the Targaryens and the faith have been at loggerheads with each other. You shouted out the specific name of a character. Can I shout out one more? Please. Lady Joanna Lannister. Your favorite. Lady Joanna Lannister gets a mention. Does she come up in this episode? Yeah, she gets a mention. She's in charge of Casterly Rock right now because Jason Lannister's dead and Tyland is who knows where. In the drink. Swimming. Yeah, in his kit in the drink. Or pretending to be a triarchy soldier and just living out like Larking as a guy. Maybe he'll come back, yeah, with like a real eyeliner look. Maybe we will go back to this stuff. I gotta say, just a tough time to be a woman in Westeros. Just like every single time. Share more, share more. But when you're like the triarchy or kidnapping daughters and wives, I was just like, I'm an ally. Asking ransoms that we can't pay? Not on my watch. And even Rhaenyra's like, you think I give a fuck? I mean, she's got other stuff on her mind. Damon's like, we gotta feed all these people with the hell. I have to very quickly knight them. The knighting scene, which we've already brought up a couple times, I thought that was one of the best like real, oh, the tone that you're used to in a moment like this is deliberately being presented to you differently. I think especially, not that it was sort of like made in conversation with, but especially off the back of A Night in the Seven Kingdom watching Guy Raymond and like, yeah. Or we think of Jamie and Brayne. How I like wept during the knighting in that show. It's the sickest moment of that show. Either this, you're like, uh-oh. This is so good. We can wrap it up there. I thought this obviously was an amazing episode. We're gonna miss you next week. I know, no me next week. What will we do? What if it is so good? What if it's so good? What if it's such a banger that you're like, guys, I'm back. I'm back. I'm manifesting it. Like I'm just, I'm gonna fly back early. get on your dragon. Dragons are useful. The American Airlines dragon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From Old Polaria. Lovely to hang out with you. Please listen to House of R. Check out The Watch. Thank you to Alayah and everybody for producing us today and we'll be back. These two will be back next week, next Sunday, and then I will be back the following week. Hell yeah. See you then. See you then. Shop holiday in-store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty. The man.