'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive

Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today because today, King's Landing receives its queen. Me? It's Joanna Robinson, queen of my heart. Whose head do I take? Well, I'm the only other one in the studio right now, so that's worrying. Guys, come on in. Come on in. Jo, we are here, of course, to dive deep. Profoundly deep. Deep. All the way to the bottom of the lake shore. Fish feet, fish feet. Except there's too many bones in the way. Bones. House of the Dragon. Yeah, a little Baltimore accent came out over there. Yeah, other side of the table. Wow, what a twist. We're here to talk about Hati, House of the Dragon, season three, episode two. What an episode it was. It's called Queen's Landing. We are going to go beat by beat through the entire thing. Right after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. For 30 years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together. 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Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplida. Learn more at. Or call 888-252-4824. Before we do any of that, we're actually going to share some programming reminders. Wow, what a lie. I know. We always say right after this, it's never right after that. No. Never. But you hook them, and then you hope they stay. Programming reminders. Here's what else we have cooking right now. Talk the Thrones. Every Sunday, immediately, after the latest Hot D episode, we gather with our best beloved, Christopher Ryan. Love him. For Talk the Thrones. So, Sunday night, TTT, Ep 3, be there. Not a good sign that I can't get out full words, like at the beginning of the pod, but we'll see how it goes today. I think it's going to go. We'll see how it goes. It's going to go very well. I think that the state of peak exhaustion really worked for us last week. We'll see if we can tap into that same mania today. Okay. I have high hopes. I do, too. I have high hopes. In addition to Talk the Thrones, and then, of course, the House of the Dragon deep dives on Tuesday evenings, we are covering the vampire Lestat. We're having a blast. Check out that show. If you're not watching it, you can watch it on AMC Plus. Plus? See? And then our pods will be up on Monday's most weeks. TBD next week. We have a little bit of a schedule wrinkle we're working through. Next week, something's going on. And so, if the Lestat episode is late next week, I promise we have a really good reason. This is news to Carlos in real time, because we haven't talked to him about this yet. Yeah. Yeah. He's in the control room like, what the fuck are they talking about? We found out last night. We might have a conflict. So, we're doing our best, and we will get Lestat up as soon as we can. It will be there. We'll be rocking out. Maybe we'll do the entire thing in song. We'll find out. I can't wait to find out. And then, you know, we're only a couple weeks away from the Odyssey, so that is thrilling. Yeah. We also have one, one Nolan revisited film left, Oppenheimer, so that is something that we will talk about at some point. At some point. In the coming months, weeks. Weeks. Do we know when? We don't. But at some point. We're also, it's July. That's right. Ish, almost. I was like, I just assumed you were right when you said that. It's not. Almost. But it sounded right. You could have said it's September, and I would have said, yep. It's almost July. Yeah. We're going to Comic-Con. We are. Can't wait. We'll have more details soon. More details. But we will be there. We will be there. There will be some boring reverse activities, so plan and prepare accordingly. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? How can they get breakouts from the pod? Pods, memes and photos, updates on what might be coming at Comic-Con, et cetera. Oh, my gosh. At House of Our Pod, our relatively new-ish. Out House of House of Our Pod is the rude troll fan parody account. I said, at House of Our Pod is our new-ish, new-esque. Nobody start at House of Our. Don't do it. It's not nice. It's already taken. That is where you can find all those aforementioned breakouts. You can also find us full video pods on YouTube. Or Spotify. Sometimes, very rarely, but sometimes we have visual aids. I do apologize to the podcast listeners for doing a prolonged map segment without any clue for the podcast listeners about what direction I was talking about on top of that. Ah, the audio medium. Yeah. Remember how podcasts are for people listening? Interesting. And I was like, here, you'll see this. Anyway, that's a rarity. Usually, you could also just listen to us. Follow the pod, wherever you get podcasts. That's right. Email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Yeah. We're getting some great House of Our emotes for House of the Dragon. Thank you so much for sending those in. And that's it. That's it. Fumbled my way through that. You did great. Spoiler warning. Yeah. Oh, my God. Spoiler warning. Here's how we do it during the Thrones runs. If it happened in the episode of television that we're covering today, guess what? We're going to talk about all of it. It's all on the table. Anything that's ever happened in House of the Dragon to date could come up today. If it's ever happened in another Thrones television program, Game of Thrones, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, it could potentially come up today. In terms of book information, we'll sprinkle, we'll dabble. Smattering. We'll dust. Yeah, we'll smatter some book quotes and content. Quote, the Baltimore came back to the proper side of the table. We'll dabble. Some book quotes. Going down to the ocean, huh? I'm going to watch the O's. Have a natty bow. Some book quotes as we go for context, clarity. But if it's a nugget about the future, anything about story beats that are yet to come. If it's something Helena saw in a dream or Alice saw in a puddle, we'll talk about it in the book spoiler section. Which you will be warned of as we near it. Which, which, which stuff go? Carlos will have a spoofer. Spooky sound effect for you to signal that the book spoiler section is upon us. And that'll be at the very end of the pod. So you only have to worry about that late. Stick around if you want to. At that point, leave if you don't want to hear book spoilers. Okay. Is the upstart pup too craven to face his queens? We'll find out because it's time to pod. It is time for the opening snapshot. Snip. Ooh, I love that, that sword sound. Uh, Joanna. Before we talk about episode two of season three, just a quick update. One of the things we asked last week is how many people do we think watched the premiere? Like what is the audience going to be for the season as we go? So after we recorded, there was a, uh, an answer to this question. 21.5 million global viewers after just three days per WB for episode one. We don't have figures for episode two yet. So is this going to take up? Hopefully that is an 8% dip from season two. That is obviously still off. Fuckload of people compared to how many people watch most television shows in the peak TV streaming era, but something to track. Uh, anecdotally. Yes. We, we, we were going to track this as we go to, we talked about this a bit last week. What is the temp check? What is the read for you? People in your life, people on the old interwebs. Did you feel, uh, I felt, and there was positivity around episode one. I felt an uptick beyond that for episode two. Substantial uptick for episode two. People are like, we're back. People really liked episode two, though, along with, and I, I'm not trying to like, this is a jubilant moment. I think this is a jubilant moment. This is an excellent episode of House of the Dragon. People are really excited about it. That's great. The other thing I heard was from people, wow, what a great season two finale that was. I mean, there's no question. Right. It would have been sensational. A sensational season two finale. And so that's just sort of the, the, the slight caveat is that it still feels like this belonged at the end of a previous season. No question. And so, you know, that's something to think about. How does that impact this season? Because if we think about episodes one and two as episode nine and 10 of season two, Yes. And season three, as it exists, is only six episodes long. Right. You know, so. Right. These things are all impossible to pull apart from each other because had season two been 10 episodes and ended that way, maybe seasons three and four would have been longer than just eight episodes. Maybe we would have been in 10 episode territory the whole way. I think, you know, Condal and team definitely wanted those other episodes at the end of the previous season. I hope they feel really vindicated and validated as people are saying like, hey, this would have been great. Yeah. And they're like, you hear that money people? All the shit that people were talking about the season two finale. Yeah. We didn't want it that way and they didn't want it that way. And what if you just let us do this? I was thinking back to all of our season two trailer breakdowns where we were like, this is definitely where the season's going to end. Rhaenyra takes King's Landing. That's happening. Gullit, for sure. Rhaenyra taking King's Landing. We're going to pan away Rhaenyra on the throne. What an incredible moment that's going to be. We're like, wow, they're really hiding Gullit. Weird that Gullit's not in any of the season two trailers. They must be finishing the effects. We want sweet summer children. We were. But set the table. Again, we'll go through all the beats and the deep dive, but set the table, Jo, as you already just kind of alluded to. You loved this episode. People are hyped about the episode. Queen's Landing, 64 minutes. Hey, I see what they did there in the episode name. With Chris before Talk to Thrones, we were like, we didn't have the episode title at that point. So we were like, what do we think this is called? Queen's Landing didn't occur to me, but it's strong. You know what's really funny is that the only option I came up with was I was like, what if they did We Light the Way? And then I was like, wait, didn't they do that? For Rhaenyra's wedding in season one when Alyson walks in in the green dress. That was called We Light the Way, directed by Claire Kilner, who directed this episode. And you also brought up We Light the Way when talking about the blood pool shot at the end of this episode with Otto. And you were like, remember, Rhaenyra's wedding blood pool shot. Claire Kilner just like bookending her fantastic work here. I mean, she's just incredible. I talked about her a lot in Talk to Thrones, but I think she's incredible. Hearing the way that she talks, her various inspirations for this episode, hearing her talk about it. Thinking back through, you know, so this episode is written by Sarah Hess. Yes. Who's written a ton of episodes. Yes. And directed by Claire Kilner, who's directed several episodes. Yes. They're both EPs. Yes. Yes. And Sarah Hess is the co-head writer. So this is a power team. Yes. Coming in for this episode. And I think Claire Kilner has really proven herself at this point, in my eyes, as like, if it's a Claire Kilner episode, I'm going to be really excited to see what she does. And like, going back to her first episode, King of the Narrow Sea, I just like remember us at the time talking about, you know, I'm going to be really excited to see what she does about some of the visuals of that. That's when Rainier and Damon go into the bowels of the Pleasure Den and like, you know, have their night out on the town. This podcast owes so much to that episode. It's really true. Frankly, where would we be without it? It's really true. I Googled that just to make, even though we've said it one million times, I Googled it just to make sure I had it completely right. And dumb AI, so AI's dumb, but the dumb AI result was like, Otto's famous line from House of the Dragon. And I was like, if it's famous, that's because of Otto. I don't think it is, but if it is, it's because we willed it into fame. We Light the Way, the blood wedding in season one. The Green Council, which is the penultimate episode of season one. That's a blight on the record, that episode. I don't know, like, because. But not through the fault of direction. I think the opening of that episode of like, you know, Viserys is dead, like, what's going on? Like, I remember the opening of that episode being really good. Yeah, that stuff's quite good. You know, death by small ball. Still iconic to this day. I can't get over everything in the dragon pit with Maelys and Rhaenys and everything. It just still doesn't make sense. But that's not Claire Kilner's fault. That makes no sense. That's not Claire Kilner's fault. It's never made a single lick of sense. Bizarre. Did you see on social media, there was this tweet going around where it was like, if Lady Olenna had had a dragon, like, the war would be over. And it was like comparing Olenna to Rhaenys or something like that. And they're like, I'll tell you something right now. Olenna would have torched the shit out of the greens. Would a dragon be a dragon? No question. I did not see the tweet. I barely go on Twitter, as you know. I know. I basically go on. But sometimes tweets make their way into Instagram, so I don't know what you've seen meme-wise. That is true. Every now and then, someone will post a tweet on an Instagram story. Every now and then on a carousel. There you go. That's the extent of my Twitter exposure, other than the three times a year that I tweet out this podcast. And then I look at my Twitter, and I'm like, all it is is tweets about House of the Dragon and Joe. Feels right. Feels good. It feels right. Last but not least, Claire Kelly, the only one she did in, no, that's not true. But she directed Rhaenyra the Cruel, Cargoboy. Yes. The episode two and episode five of season two. Cargoboy. It's on the media list. Your favorite. You love Cargoboy. My favorite thing that's ever happened. Anyway, Claire Kilner, what a star. Really, really brought it in this episode, I think. It's just such a treat to have Joffrey and his beaten, bloody head and the blood pool from season one, episode five, back on our minds. It's like Otto did do something good at the end. Gave us an excuse to remember Joff. Do you think, I was actually thinking. Before his namesake, other Joff comes back into the story. I was thinking about poor dead Joffrey. Yeah. When Simon Strong dies in this episode. Yeah. During Pride Month. And I'm just sort of like, listen. Yeah. In the same episode where he was like, young, virile young man. Virile young man, yeah. What brought you here? Incredible reply from Damon when he's like, and which of those. Which of those brought you through Glade and Glenn? Wonderful. You know what's really fun about that? Sorry, we are going to go in order probably, but. You know, we'll do what we want. We're going to talk plenty about the fish feed, obviously. Fish feed. And that song. Fish feed. But Sean from the History of Westeros podcast pointed out that if they are indeed like improvising lines there in the fish feed song, Damon is like still going. Mmm. Because Simon says, when the Riverlands were ascendant, music and meat and virile young men. Yes. And Damon says, and which of these delights drew you to us through Glade and Glenn? Like he's still. He just can't stop. He's still dropping bars. He's still songwriting. Yeah. Get Damon Targaryen on the Vampire Lestat tour bus and do it now. Oh, yeah. His big bus. His rendition of Big Bus would have been really good. Oh, Damon would lay down. Anyway. Epic diss track. Damon killing a gay icon during Pride Month. Chris and Cole. Beat one to death. So bros who gay bash together stay together. We'll see how Kristen and Eamon do. But happy Pride. Simon Strong, we'll miss you. I'm really bummed. I'm despondent about Simon Strong. Even though we knew it was coming, it's still devastating because he's been such a delight. I also thought this episode was just wonderful. Really, really excellent. Some astonishingly great performances and moments that feel, and I overused the word iconic. You do. But. Legendary. I don't say this lightly here. I think there are moments in this episode. I feel like they will stand the test of time as signature Pantheon thrones, visuals, and thrones moments. Rhaenyra receiving Jace's body and the performance from Emma Darcy in that scene. Unquestionably, the visual of Rhaenyra ascending to the throne reflected, as you noted, in the pool of Otto's blood and what that tells us not only about that moment, but the cost of war and the inextricable nature in the stretch of the canon, the Dance of the Dragons for House Targaryen of your achievement. And your pursuits and the toll and the cost of that. And the cost of war is where we open this episode. And it's a through line of the story and a question that should be on our minds the whole time. And Alicent and Rhaenyra looking at each other is something that I think Thrones fans will carry with them moving forward at the end. It's just amazing. Emma's face on the throne, this thing that she has always, I mean, she, Rhaenyra, they, Emma. Yes. She, Rhaenyra, has always wanted to sit on the throne. And then here it is. And that, to me, is the most important thing. I think the key is the through line of this episode is just sort of like, what do people actually want? What are they given and what do they want? You know, like, Alice wants a castle and Daemon's like, we'll see. You know, Ulf wants a hug. But he gets a slap in the fucking face. He gets a slap in the face instead. But it's just sort of like this idea of like, you know, what does Alan want? Does he want Corlys' name or does he just want like some love and respect? Like, what do you want and what are you given and then also what happens when you get finally get what you want, right? Was it actually what you wanted all along? Let's ask Reyna, you know? How does it feel to get the thing you finally want and find yourself in that situation? It feels great. She looks great. She looks great. She's thriving. Everything is going really well for all of the characters. Yeah. Jade Arryn's like, great, I got a dragon. This is great. Comes with no baggage attached. This is wonderful for me. Yeah, that's a, that, I agree that through line is really a rich text to parse in this episode and Rhaenyra, with Rhaenyra most of all, but Alice and so many of the characters and then that through line too of like trust and loyalty and what you can rely upon and what you have to doubt at all moments and whether you're ever really in a position to be able to identify that. Like, it's just a, this was a really good Thrones episode for balancing character dynamics, introspection, the relationships between them, the way that this episode called upon and rewarded the history that has passed between the characters, but also our history as viewers with the characters. Like, you know, there are definitely some House of the Dragon fans still that are like, did we need five episodes of basically prequel? You watch an episode like this. And that feels like a decision that was appropriate to make, for example, right? So, you know, there's all of that. And then there's something that is like epic, like the taking of the throne. That is just a huge, huge, huge moment. To go back to your balance point, which I think is such a good one. Something that Claire Kilner said is that action without emotion is, is useless, right? And so she's always mindful as a director of making sure that we like, feel the action. And I think that's a problem I had with the gullet in episode one is I didn't feel as emotionally connected to it as I wanted to. Despite Lohar being your long-established favorite character who you are the most invested in, you didn't feel it. Everyone spent years invested in Lohar. So, you know, so that's what I'm always asking for. When we talk about spectacle versus whatever, like, I don't mind spectacle if it's tied to something emotional. Like, Rook's Rest, you know, which you brought up, like, my emotions were so tangled in that moment. So, like. Anakin and Obi-Wan facing off on Mustafar. Uh, same, same, same level. Same, same. Exactly the same. So. I agree and I knew you would agree. Uh, so, you know, I, um, like, when you have something in this episode, like, Aemon arriving on Vhagar to, at Harrenhal, like, all that looks really cool. And I don't take that for granted. I don't take for granted how good the dragons look. Yeah. Like, that's amazing. Because if they looked shitty, we'd be taken out of the story. It's very immersive to see these dragons rendered so beautifully. And they're everywhere. It's amazing. You see Sheepstealer in the back arena. You know, Sheepstealer didn't have to be in that scene, but Sheepstealer's there. Caraxie taking, like, a little drink from, um. Possibly my favorite moment in the series to date. The corpse-infested waters of the Godside. You know, if you're a dragon, it tastes delicious. And a lot of those corpses were probably roasted before they went in there. It tastes like an umami, an umami flavor to the water. Exactly. Um, so. Really cat-coded moment for Caraxie's right there. But the dragons are everywhere. They're amazing. You know, and that's incredible. I don't take that for granted. But with, like, Aemon and Vhagar and Harrenhal. Harrenhal. It's Aemon being, like, shanked in the side and then crawling on the floor and saying, like, help me. That's the juice for me. Yes. Here's my one I didn't need it from this episode. Yeah. Two episodes into the season, two sexual assaults. And I'm like, you know what? It's. Yeah. I understand it's a proud thrones tradition. Yeah. I don't think they should be so proud of it. I don't. I think there are so many ways we could have conveyed a like, no matter how much conniving she does or whatever, as a woman, she's still powerless in many ways. There are things that we could have done, but I didn't need that part of this episode. I definitely agree. Yeah. But I love this episode otherwise. Me too. Big fan. Should we head to the Bells of a Pleasure Den? Should we head to the Deep Dive? Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot, and they've got just a tree for your style, space, and budget. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at $49. Then make it your own. Make it your own. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. The Lemonati has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime in the shadows. Their lemon agenda has infiltrated everything, even our music. That hit song named after the color of lemons, not a coincidence. Big Lemon has been pulling strings in the industry for years. Think about it. But now, 7-Up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda. Now lime comes first. 7-Up, flip the sip. The secret society of semi-homemade? Listen up. Sam's Club has pre-made dishes for a Thanksgiving feast that's ready in two hours, all while tasting suspiciously homemade. Come join us. Sam's Club. Oven times may vary. Do it. Oh, there's that screech. Okay, before we get to the actual episode, just quickly, opening credits check in because the tapestry in the opening credits evolved across season two. And here is our first update inside of season one. The gullet has been stitched into the fabric on the heels of the sewing. Get the kind of blue thread for the water. I thought that looked cool. Oh, it did. And the way the tapestry was like waving, I thought it was really cool. Really neat. Lohar makes the tapestry, which like, frankly, outrageous. My favorite character that I've been long, long invested in. Looked amazing. The design of it is incredible, obviously. Do you think it's a spoiler that there's a blood pool around Lohar and a blood pool around Jace, but not one of our own Corleys? I was interested to see how many people- Yeah, for mere minutes, how many people left. Because I actually did get, you know, Chris had asked us about Corleys after episode one. And then I did get some texts from friends who were like, is this Sea Snake? Okay. Glad you mentioned Arrow Riddle Jace, who of course belongs on the tapestry. Heir to the Iron Throne. This is a huge moment in the war, deserves to be commemorated in the opening credits and in the tapestry of history. Do you know what I'm going to say? Where's Vermax? Where? Where the fuck is Vermax? I'm sorry, but to not put sweet baby Vermax, who died for these buffoons. Bottom of the gullet. Let's pan down through that gorgeous blue thread. It's already there. Really tough. I know. Are you mad that Bela didn't try to haul Vermax's body on the back of Moondancer to wing him home? Thank you for asking. You're welcome. I feel seen and known and understood. I didn't consider it possible or practical for Bela or anyone to retrieve Vermax's body. However, I did think it was quite amusing in a way that I respect on the show's behalf that Jace very kindly died with one arm over a wooden plank so that his body could be retrieved. So that Bela could just like. Thank you, Jace. You did one thing right at the end. Mopping up in the gullet. This is where we begin the episode. The seeds have come in, Joe. For mop-up duty. And we talked last week in episode one about this adaptive change to not have Ulf and Hugh and Adam at the gullet. And, you know, we see their additional dragons, the force of the flame, kind of like just clearing out the remnants here, though some of the remnants will remain. And can't wait to talk about our favorite characters in the history of television. Aegon and Laris. Still don't know how we got here, but here we are. Give me credit. You were on it minute one. Laris? Minute one. Minute one. Minute one. I think you were early. Early on Aegon. Yeah. I think you were early on Tom Glen Kearney as Aegon. The remarkable performance from the first. Yeah. The first scene. Just great stuff here. They did not arrive in the thick of the action, as in the text, but they got there at the end so that Ulf can say, we were at the gullet too, which I found just incredibly amusing. Vermithor and Silverwing and Seasmoke, but. And Seasmoke, you know, has seen some battle, but Vermithor and Silverwing are massive dragons. Yeah. If they had been at the gullet. Like, the thing about Vermax. Tiny. And Moondancer, youthful, tender. So those, like. Tweens. You know, they are susceptible to these, you know, grappling hooks, whatever we're calling them. Punyards, I don't know. But in a way that these older dragons wouldn't be. The bronze fury would be tough to take down, to pull down with one of those. Follow-up question. Tell me. Do you think Daemon is so weird? About Hugh and Ulf, because their dragons are bigger than his dragon? Oh, you think it's a dick-measuring contest? I do. I mean, Caraxes is a long noodle boy, but. Yeah, but like, Caraxes is so interesting, because Caraxes has length. Yeah. And wiggle. You know? Dexterity. Caraxes knows how to move. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of what we've seen with the shrieks and the squeaks. Tells me that Caraxes is up to some interesting things. Okay. So I think Daemon feels confident. But it's Daemon, and so there's always a little bit of insecurity to feel that. So Grace, this is a great shout. This is why you're the best. Bronze fury is big. Big boy. Hefty. Yeah. Girthy. Yeah. It's like we're wearing a grand old dame. A grand old dame. Joe, on the imagery front, the dragons and otherwise, this is just a quick opening stretch, but we have like this real kind of cacophony of sights and sounds. I think that the score is excellent this season. So far, I mean, it's always good, but it is really, really resplendent early, and I thought that the use of the musical accompaniment in these opening moments were really powerful. And then on the visual front, we have, you know, all the floating bodies, right? I'd like to be under the water and see the fire come from above the water. Blanketing. Yeah. I liked like the literalization of last week's episode title, you know, the salt and sea and fire and blood. But just what that shows you about the way that the fire can kind of take over the world, right? We open with fire and we end with blood. Blood. Hey. Fire and blood. That's the name of the book. Not sure if you all have heard. That's the fictional history that this show is adapting. I thought that the lake, and this is also something we get to really see in a cool way later when Rhaenyra and the riders are leaving Dragonstone to head finally to King's Landing. The air is just choked with smoke and wreckage and the carnage of the battle and so much of like what we- Corlys's legacy. Corlys's legacy. Corlys's legacy. Up in smoke. Tough. So much of what we linger in appropriately inside of this episode is the personal costs, right? The really intimate loss and toll of what has happened here. So it is, I think, important and helpful to just give us these reminders of how many people died and how savage this battle was. Like the fleets are annihilated and this rooted us and oriented us very effectively from the jump. I do think it's interesting. I don't know if it's, you know, if it's clear to folks watching at home who haven't read But, like, the. The Battle of the Gullet, bloodiest battle on water, and then the Fish Feed, bloodiest, also kind of a water battle, but bloodiest land battle. So the two bloodiest chapters of the war, certainly not the last. We certainly have many more skirmishes to come, but we have just gone through the two bloodiest battles, the biggest losses of human life inside of this war in the last couple episodes. Not ideal. Not great. Not ideal. And yet no loss was felt more keenly than this. Prince J. Saris. That's a book. That's a book line that we love. Jace is brought home. Fuck those pirates. Bela brings him home. The Dragonstone Dragonkeepers carry him forward, this procession of his body. How do you feel about this, about the Dragonkeepers? So, like, the Dragonkeepers last season were, like, pissed about the whole sewing. So, but how do you feel about them burying Jace's body like this? Like, I think it's really interesting. You could have had any castle staff sort of acting as pallbearers here, but, like, you know, obviously at the Dragonmount, like, having the Dragonkeepers. Having the Dragonkeepers so close to Moondancer is ideal. But it just, like, felt really like, Jace, he's a dragon. Yeah. He was of dragon blood. Something that was, like, you know, obviously he's obviously Rhaenyra's son, but, like, a part of him that was questioned his whole life. And here at the end, it's these Dragonkeepers sort of burying his body. I just thought this whole sequence was, again, just, like, where the camera was as Jace's sort of, like, beautiful dead face just sort of, like, comes down over. Still serving face even as a corpse. Yeah, crowd surfing. Yeah. That's a beautiful observation. And then, you know, the person who would have appreciated it most, of course, is Jace. Who's dead. Who's not there because he's dead. But, yeah, like, to honor the fact that he was a rider and that he died on Dragonback sort of kind of he had unhooked and then just got shot by arrows by the Triarchy. Tough way to go. In battle. A battle that he shouldn't have been in because he wasn't ready, but he did die that way. And I thought I really love, like, on the bookend's front, too, you know, this episode opens with the body. This episode closes with bodies. Got the decapitated Otto. Yeah, bodies, bodies, bodies. And, you know, we're probably not going to spend much time when we get to the end of this pod and we're obsessing over the Otto sequence. But let's just note, Iron Rod also gets decapitated and he deserved to. I don't care. No one gives a shit, but he did. He died his own death, my wife. Very good. Very good. Damon coming in to decapitate characters who are in the middle of sentences is one of my favorite House of the Dragon traditions. He loves to do it. Damon's like, I wasn't alone. So we have these bodies at the bookend of the episode, the open and the close. But it just made me think more broadly. Of, like, when there is, I don't want to be too weird and spend too long talking about corpses here. Because even we have limits on the House of Ars. I'm trying to say this quickly. But, like, this was on my mind. Like, when a character dies, what happens to that body and what does it tell us about where we are in the story? Like, what the context of the moment is and what grace or indignity befalls that body? Like, what it indicates about the moment. Like, what it indicates about the moment in time. Like, Ned. Spoiler. Ned Stark is beheaded. Tough one. When they put his head on a pike. His head is on a pike. Right? To be eaten by crows and picked at. And for Sansa has to look at. Equally important. I mean, I don't like to see lions or any animals harmed. But they did an amazing job with that prosthetic. Holy shit. Oh, my God. Incredible stuff. The prosthetics team is killing it here. You know, and then Ned's bone. That indignity. But then his bones. And granted, it's part of a manipulation, you know, for Littlefinger. But they're presented to Kat. Right? So you have that. Rob and Grey Wind stitched together. Their bodies befouled. Right? A horrifying one. You have the sequences where a character like Tywin can rest with the stones on the eyes. But then, like, is the corpse rotting? Does it stink? You know, even so. I just mentioned Vamon. Like, that was a very tense death and a tense moment in the story. But then we were treated to this really fascinating, quiet sequence where Rhaenys went in to watch the Silent Sisters at their work and reflect on the inescapable presence of the stranger. So Rhaenyra, who could never find Luke's body. Right? And that was such an important part of Rhaenyra's grief after Luke was killed at the end of season one. And it was one of the things that Daemon, when he was, like, real dick mode for Daemon at that point. Right? But he was basically. Like, the mother grieves and the queen shirks her duties. And Rhaenys had to say to him, I could not accept what happened to my daughter, Laena, until I saw her body. And this is something that is not on offer to Rhaenyra with Luke. It is here. What we witness is so devastating that I think it forces us to ask, like, is this any better or is this just misery in a different form? I love this. And, like, you know, we talked about this last week in terms of, like, the very, very various traditions of the various, you know, the Riverlanders returning the body to mud or whatever. Right. Odd that you didn't mention Prince Joffrey's dead body. I actually. In front of which his mother and his father, who is also his uncle. Yes. Fucked. Fucked. I was going to, but it's such a controversial scene in Joyce that I couldn't quite bring myself to. You're like, breaker of chains? Why would we talk about that episode? It's great stuff. Boy. I thought this was incredible. You know, like, bringing Jace's body in. We've talked about this plenty on Talk of Thrones about how incredible Emma is in this scene, how incredible it is for Rhaenyra. Thinking about, were you thinking about, you know, speaking of Cersei, were you thinking about other, like, mothers inside of Thrones who we've watched? Whether it's Cersei or Catelyn or Daenerys losing one of her dragon babies or whatever. Like, you know, these mothers and their horror. You know, Cersei holding Joffrey's, like, choking purple body and, like, we hate that kid. And we're excited to see him dead. And we don't even really like Cersei that much. But, like, there was something so primal about that moment of Cersei holding Joffrey's body or, of course, Motha. And then, like, you know, Catelyn just screaming and being like, I guess I'll slice this neck while I'm grieving. The Cersei shout-out is a great one, too, because I think that's a good one to remember the evolution across loss, which is, like, helpful to have in our minds as we watch Rhaenyra. Oh, how it hardens into… Yeah, the different response to… And the question of, like, is this, like, the price we pay for our sins? Yeah. And then where we find Cersei after Tommen is a point of no return. Emma, Darcy said this incredible thing inside the episode about Rhaenyra being robbed of the opportunity to be a mother to protect her son. I just thought that was incredible. And I think when they bring Jace's body in… And Rhaenyra's talking to Jace like her child is still alive. Yeah. What have you done? How could you do this? You know? Jace, what have you done? Like, the way that Emma decided, you know, she could have played it as, like, what have you done? You know, whatever. But, like, just this, like, scolding sort of… Gently scolding tone or whatever. It reminded me a lot of, you know, that's not how it is between this mother and son. But, like, it reminded me a lot of Romeo and Juliet. The, like, oh, troll, drunk, all, and left no friendly drop when Juliet's talking to Romeo as if he's still there. You know, just sort of, like, just the inability to accept the reality of what you're confronted with. And we talked on Talk the Thrones about, like, how horrible it is that Rhaenyra has to go through this experience with an audience. Yes. And what is everybody… What are we reading on the faces of the people in that room? You know, they're deeply uncomfortable with her. I love her response here, which I say, get a grip and let this lady, like, lose her marbles for a second. I think it's absolutely fine. Her beloved son, second beloved son is dead, you know? Two dead sons. And, yeah. I mean, like, fuck you, Ser Lauren, honestly. I know. I will say this. I know, the gall. The moment between Bela and Ser Lauren when he asks how the battle went, she said, tis one. Yeah. Yeah. I actually love… I love that even more than the Corliss line, which is a book line that we were waiting… Waiting for. Yeah. His, you know, if this be victory, I hope I never see another. Like, we were waiting for that because that's a book line. Yeah. But Bela saying, tis one. Yeah. And his response to that, that really captured that feeling that I had reading that victory line in the book, you know? I agree. And, like, you know, you used the term Pyrrhic victory last week and, like, this question of what is the cost and can you possibly justify it the way that this episode… And then the show and the dances. The piece of canon overall ask us to think about that, like, in the inside of one relationship or one family or one household and then kind of at scale and mass. That's, like, inescapable in moments like this. And I think we often think about it for characters like Rhaenyra or Alicent who are making these big choices. But I agree. It's, like, really powerful to see a moment like that for a character like Bela who… And then you pair it with saying to Alan, you know, Bela saying to Alan later, like, we were children together. You know, we talk about the, like, we were… They were girls together. With Alicent and Rhaenyra, which Massaria… Basically directly invokes in this episode. Someone asked where our writing credit was on that. And I was like, thanks so much. I was thinking of you and us weeping and sobbing in the studio talking about that scene together. One of my favorite podcasting memories ever. Slightly less emotion. being shared between Damon and Masaria but you know they have their own sort of sure they have their own sort of thing going their own special spark yeah they'd actually do a great podcast together Damon and Masaria my god can you imagine I would like to go back in time four years when we first started this and say yeah um when we were discussing Masaria's accent in four years from now I stand by I will say this lady should have a podcast I stand by every take every single day it is one of the most shocking parts of re-watching House of the Dragon is confronting Masaria's season one accent it just pulls you over pulls you over which accent work pulls you over more Gabriela in The Vampire Lestat The Great Conversion or Masaria in season one of House of the Dragon I still I give Masaria the edge because Count Chocula is at least a vampire I still give Masaria the edge because Count Chocula is at least a vampire and so while it is a bit of a puzzling choice it is a choice inside of a story universe that I understand I will give the show credit this they didn't bury the character Masaria even though she was deeply unpopular they're like she has things to do we're gonna keep her around and they took the note and they and they you know turned down the the volume on the accent great stuff we are grateful on the Emma performance front in this this stretch um Claire Kilner a couple a couple lines from the official pod about just how you know mesmerizing this performance was thought were really interesting Claire Kilner described it as deep from the pit of their gut which is I mean poetry but just that that captures something I think that's how you podcast I've always said deep from the pit of your gut it really is yeah via screech and something primal deep from the the pit of the gut and then Sarah has said there are not that many actors I would write that scene for and I believe that that's true actually like you have to have the confidence that something like that can be rendered on screen yeah at this level and Emma Darcy is capable of that in a way that is is unique um I really just the tracking and the evolution from that uh this can't possibly be true denial that you identified into the despair and anguish of just like the mounting loss how can a nut like there's no reprieve there's no escape how can this keep happening and I think two boys who hid their faces in my skirts devastating right absolutely crushing and what that forces Raniera to ask about and Damon's like yada yada yada we have a it's time to switch to high valerian we have a threat we have a threat it's time to switch to high valerian and then the wrath you know and and that blend of emotions like when will those things kind of coexist with each other and when will one win the day this scene and and Raniera goes right back in after the wrath kind of breaks through into going back to Jace's body and scooping him up and cradling him and just sobbing choking out the despair and the anguish but that comes after laying in appropriately and rightly to almost every person in yeah Bela you too that room let's see the clip all of you who knew what you serious had done and stood by are your lives too not forfeit have you not betrayed your queen I mean submit it to the Emmys now there's no need to wait the way she like looks at and her sort of like body kind of collapses into the sobs it just sort of like I can't even hold myself up yeah under the weight of this grief it's just incredible stuff and also you spend so much time trying to assume the figure of the ruling queen or the warrior and then we think back to like cutting into ribbons the gown of the ruling queen you know like we talked about last week it's like well what is any of that first of all sometimes you can't maintain that image sometimes just the raw humanity breaks the dam but also like Raniera is in a moment right now of asking what is any of that for where has any of that gotten Raniera right and like I don't know I don't know I don't know like I thought so I was Sir Lauren is like an interesting uh microcosm of a larger circumstance here I was thinking back to in season one Damon coming with with Sir Stephan and Sir Lauren and basically making them swear their allegiance right with Caraxes there to intimidate trying to teach Jace a lesson about how it's done and said to them at the time if you choose treachery if you swear fealty now only to turn your cloaks know that you will die screaming it's so interesting as a like Sir Lauren did not go to the greens he didn't give Raniera to the enemy you could argue this is a deeper and more damning betrayal because what it is and it's this it's like these things mount a loss of a person you can trust and then the constant diminishment by the people who are supposed to have chosen Raniera and sworn to abide her I mean the black council's here fuck those guys oh my god the worst forever the worst um you know so those guys are here she's like fuck you guys I don't I don't listen to you anymore great they're useless yeah absolutely but yeah Sir Sir Lauren uh Mulberry when he I was like you're in so much trouble buddy and then when he like went to like grab her I was like don't do that that was nuts I was like don't do that don't touch her second on the power rankings for episode for this episode still behind Celticar and Gerardi's being like you can't be serious about going to King's Landing but yeah Lauren grabbing Raniera was fucking nuts you know we have some notes for Damon which we'll get to later on slapping off I do think that Raniera should have slapped Celticar again as as she very satisfying I mean yeah there's a couple like don't fucking touch me uh moments from the Targs here but yeah that that was the real don't fucking touch me uh why did he do that that was so dumb maybe he's like well I'm dead anyway so I might as well my life is forfeit I'm gonna make a grand gesture you know Kristen was the sworn sword for a while and that's a different type of loss right that's a you have shamed me because you didn't want my oranges and cinnamon and so I have gone to the other side but then Eric Cargill Ball it's the second time it's come up today will it be the last who can say stay tuned to find out is it the is it the moment that turned the tide of the entire war it could be some are saying sin begets sin is a thing that I have heard and know to be true okay brother be brother conflict inside the human heart of twins it's the only thing worth writing about Stefan killed at the kind of first attempt the rough draft of the sewing it Laurent now all the counselors are useless none of them can be relied upon except Massaria who is kind of now entwined in this like whoa what is gonna happen in this you're using the worm you're using the worm language now twirling and writhing and it's Massaria Damon she doesn't even have Jace who was like honestly when you when you saw her sort of like plotting and planning with Damon gone last season Jace was like quite constantly her her counselor she certainly doesn't want to talk to Bela you know what I mean so it's just sort of like Damon shows up whispers some high valerian sweet nothing into her ears holds her hand a little bit when they when they go into you know claim the throne like so a little hand grasp in terms of like who is Rhaenyra going to be listening to who has her ear going forward I mean fuck you Celtic are you know definitely not you Lauren you could die the way you choose like that's fine incredible incredible moment just while marching out and not even let him pick the way he gets to choose absolutely loved it feel the choice uh one of the same safe to say two episodes into season three probably not going to be doing a lot of game planning and strategizing with is Reyna who has returned a seamless transition thank you when you're when you're tallying up the men in the story who don't listen to women are you putting Sheepstealer on the list oh I mean you have to at the end of the day you have to Celtic are I love Sheepstealer just like just precious I love that overbite the design is so impeccable and I ultimately blame Reyna for taking Sheepstealer right into battle with no training or confidence that that dragon would be uh comfortable or responding which uh he was not I gotta say yeah I have a lot of notes for Lady Jane Arryn none of them are fashion tips though no she looks astounding yeah I will say this uh you know sometimes you put stuff on Twitter I not you because you don't go on Twitter but sometimes you put stuff on Twitter and you're like I really hope this does numbers and it doesn't and then sometimes you just toss up something stupid and Twitter's like that's yeah did you have a viral hit recently I I don't know about viral but like um but I put up a photo of like Lady Jane Arryn yeah in this fit yeah where the cape kind of looks like wings and stuff like that you love a cape and Sweet Robin from uh the final council and in everyone's favorite episode of Game of Thrones basically the same exact outfit same shade of blue same costume same collar same you know the crest is right here all the sort of stuff like that and I just said something about like how Sarah and found their look and they just like stuck with it basically the whole time but I I loved I loved her look here I thought it looked incredible would and Sweet Robin was like that's the one for me would you know suckling on a teat for some some breast milk have completed the outfit you didn't have to bring up the teat and yet you did something it's impossible not to if Robin is mentioned that's absolutely not true here's the thing though I don't know if you're about Lady Jane Aaron that I think is important to remember. Yes. As she's sort of making her political calculations here. She's quite cold to Reyna because she's like, you brought some fucking bullshit to my doorstep. I somehow have gotten a raven that has told me that Sheepstealer is being blamed for Jace's death at the gullet. News traveled quickly on this one, gotta say. I believe that Jane Eyre has the best ravens, you know, perhaps. Reyna flew up there on a dragon. Yeah, maybe they took a. I mean, who knows where Sheepstealer went before. That's true. Maybe Sheepstealer's like, I gotta eat 20 different sheep. That's true. And then she's like, eventually, like, let's go talk to Lady Jane Eyre. Okay, anyway, talking to Lady Jane Eyre, and Jane Eyre's like, this is a political disaster. Yes. Here you are. They're blaming you for Jace's death. It'll advise, I think, for Reyna to sort of like. Because at this point, nobody knew that it was Reyna. Now Lady Jane knows it was Reyna on Sheepstealer. So I don't know. That's not information I would want around. Yeah, agreed. But she's like. Like, sanctuary, essentially. Yeah. And also then Reyna goes into like, don't you want. I heard you want a dragon. Vhagar is on the loose. Vhagar's at large. Yeah. And in charge. And we do not know where Vhagar is. And you were promised dragons, and you got two little baby dragons, and you've been pissed about it. You kept complaining about how they were rough from the beginning. You've been really pissed about it. You got two tiny little dragons. Guess what? Yeah. Now you got Sheepstealer, a dragon I can totally control. And Lady Jane, who has just received very rapid news about what happened to Jace, is like. Okay. Sounds great. I don't expect to see you again, but okay. Why does Lady Jane believe that Reyna can back up this pledge? I think she just like wants. Deterrent? Yeah. There's just like a big fuck-off dragon in her neighborhood. Yeah. And she's like. It's like those signs that say, like, we have cameras, or there's a big dog. That's right. Beware dog. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't have a dog. Maybe you don't have a dog. Yeah. But then people are like, I'll just rob the house that doesn't have that sign instead. I heard there was a dog here. I heard there was a giant, unwieldy, underbiting dragon in the Vale. Great stuff. A reminder about Lady Jane Arryn that she did not become the Lady of the Vale in the Word of the East by marriage, right? She was born and raised an Arryn. So it's just like in her to the bones. Her father and her brothers died fighting when she was young, and she had to imprison her own uncles to protect her claim. That's tough. So she's been out here. Yeah, fighting. Fighting. Fighting to hold on. Her whole life. And that's part of why, you know, let's give Jace's flowers once more, because this wasn't actually something that we saw. On the show, we just heard it recounted. We got to see Jace in the North. We didn't see him in the Vale. But Jace also, like, won that pledge that sent the young'uns and Reyna up in the first place in exchange for the promise of support. Part of the reason. Some wimpy little dragons. It doesn't even have Stormclaw anymore, because they were sent off, and, you know, where are they? We await word. But Joffrey and Teraxes still, the, you know, to the, like, I have had to fight to hold this. Some of it is. Some of it is their kin, right? Emma Arryn, Rhaenyra's mother, Viserys's beloved, first beloved. First lady to die screaming in childbirth. But not the last. But not the last. But not the last. And Arryn, right? So there's a more direct tie of kinship there. But also, like, the fact, and this is explored in Fire and Blood, the fact that Lady Jane is a woman who is trying to hold on to her slice of rule. And she's like, ah, Rhaenyra. inclines her to support. Game-recognized game. Yeah, exactly, to support Rhaenyra. So that's, that's an interesting dynamic. I thought that Lady Jane showed, like, real, real chutzpah, riding up to challenge Rhaena with Sheepstealer right there. Like, you could say that's just. Riding a horse? Riding a horse. A horse. You could say it's just, like, a reckless and irresponsible and dumb to. You did just say that. You could. Some could. But you kind of gotta, you gotta admire it. I was thinking back to when Rhaena made the pitch, you know, you've, you've said that the queen kind of fucked you. Mm-hmm. So let me give you the thing you really want. First of all, it's fun to think of the history there, too, because even though this pledge was struck with Jace, Jace flew in, you know, we think of Bronn, we think of our beloved Bronn, you know, I'll impregnate the bitch, right? The Eerie in the Vale, famously impregnable for men on the ground, for armies on the ground. However, Jace and Vermax flew in from above because Vermax was a dragon, and it, at the time, reminded you. It reminded me, Jane, of our girl Visenya and Vhagar flying in and just rocking little Ronal Arryn on her lap, right, to, during the conquest to bring the Vale into the fold in the first place. So this idea that the Vale is, like, so assured in its geography, but is still vulnerable to dragons is, like, a fun little bit of that geography. Here's what I would argue. Everyone's vulnerable to dragons. Well, don't tell Alison that. She got, she got Aemon with, like, a 30-second pitch. Eh, it'll be fine there. Um, I was. I was thinking back to Rhaena and, and Jane in season two because those were tense scenes between them, and I quite. Oh, yeah, Jane was never. Not a. warm and welcoming sort. Not a, not a. There was no lemon cakes, you love lemon cakes moment for Rhaena. No, absolutely none of that. It was all Moondor vibes, just in terms of spirit and disposition the whole time. Yeah, yeah. Um, but that exchange of, of the dragons will grow in time, I don't have time, I miss, like, feeling powerless, and Rhaena responded to that, so do I. And that was on my mind watching this, like, in a really striking and sad way for Rhaena. And as we noted, this is new Rhaena canon for us because it's the Nettles swap, as we, as we mentioned last week. This is the monkey's paw season, is what you're saying. Yeah! Yeah. And this idea of, like, okay, I took a source of conflict, this, or the dragon's too big or small, I made it an opportunity. Interesting. Fast thinking. I agree, I would not have revealed that I was the rider to anyone, but still. Rhaena has finally gotten the thing that she wanted more than anything. A dragon. A dragon, and it's not even just, I can't celebrate. It doesn't feel the way I always thought it would. It's, I can't even go home. I'm, I feel like I am isolated and exiled from my family. Yeah. From my inheritance, from all of it, and that is just such a, on the miss, like, feeling power, miss, like, feeling powerful, powerless front, to finally have a dragon, the thing that should make you feel most powerful, and to feel less sure in your footing. Not just most powerful, but most accepted by your family. Most valuable. Most needed. Yeah, that Rhaena felt always on the outside, that Baelor was on the inside, because Baelor had a dragon, and Rhaena was on the outside, and her dad had no time for her, and she finally found the thing that is supposed to, like, you know, she was sent away to babysit, because she's useless, and she's like, look at me, I'm useful. Oh, no, Jace is dead. It's brutal. It's brutal, it's sad, but we do have some cheerful songs. It is time to head to a post-Fish Feed musical interlude, and let's just quickly establish Joanna, you mentioned the bloodiest battle part, the bloodiest land battle, the Dance of the Dragons began the next day. The Fish Feed, we kind of wondered last week, okay, are we getting Fish Feed, or are we not? Where are you now that we know definitively that the battle is something that is acknowledged, it has happened, we understand that it has transpired, but it was not given to us in full on screen? Does this make sense to you as a, does this feel like the right choice, because it does not feature that many central characters, even with Damon added in? I'm not mad about it, other than, like. You know, maybe the visual of all the bodies on the lakeshore would have been cool, but they gave us bodies on the beach at the Gullet instead, and that's fine, and that took a lot of time and looked incredible. I will just say this, there are other battles to come that I would be more upset to lose, said this one. I think that's where I'm going to go. So if we're bargaining, I can take a song for this battle any day. Okay. I agree. I think, like, kind of just thinking about the idea that this is the bloodiest land battle, not getting it feels kind of inherently, I think, a little odd, but I'm with you. If that's a choice that's made to really center some things that are yet to come, I'll be fine with it. Yeah. Here's the real question, though. Are we fine with the song? Because we get this post-battle song, you're the musical expert, and I need you to take me through. My feeling was, Alice with three fingers, this was not. Yeah. It wasn't my favorite. Yeah. But then I talked to him in front of the pod, Jenny O'Neill, and Jenny was like, this is actually my favorite musical moment in all of Game of Thrones. Because I was like, maybe I need to hear, like, the national or the hold steady version of this to, like, feel more connected to it. Okay. What was Jenny's case? Jenny says this, music is of by and for the people, and it's nice that they're doing a war camp, drunken celebratory, very rough around the edges sort of deal. And she compared it to Alice with three fingers, like, which is another similar sort of thing. But I think. To my ear, slightly better executed. Yeah. We're going back and forth on whether or not this is supposed to be, like, they came up with the lyrics on the fly sort of thing. Yeah. They're kind of performing it as if they are, but then there are moments when everyone's singing the same lyrics together, and they're all, like, very specific to the fish feed, so it's not like. Right. Jenny was bringing up this tradition in both, like, medieval music and, like, Delta Blues and stuff like that, that of songs that, like, the lyrics change all the time because you don't have, like, recorded versions of them. And so you just, like, have the tune and the rough framework, and then you change the music all the time, the words all the time. So she, like, an example, she was like, green sleeves becomes what child is this? Like, this is a, you know, this is a thing that happens. So if there is, like, a standard frame for this is a battle song we sing, and they're like, red fork, red fork, which is the one that they did last week, or, you know, whatever, or gull it, gull it, you know, if there was, like, a similar one they did, and this is, like, fish feed, fish feed. Yeah. Again, there are some lyrics that are very specific to the battle that everyone has everyone is singing that I have some questions about it. In terms of, like, tonality. Yeah. Beautiful. Oscar Tully with his like gorgeous curls that I was wondering if yeah you know when Damon's looking at him when he gets the news about Jace I was wondering if he was like looking at Oscar a young man it's like are you ready to step up and mog we need a new mog king like thinking about Jace because Damon does not take any time really to really in our eyes marinate in the loss of Jace no I was just wondering if like that's the one moment where he looks at young Oscar Tully and he's just sort of like these young boys at war with beautiful curly hair anyway Oscar Tully not the most tuneful singer I've ever heard in my entire life Matt Matt Smith can sing Black Alley is here Black Alley is here a character that we're excited to see she's also singing Tommy Flanagan is just kind of roaring his way through it great time um but Jenny's point and I agree is she was like in this age of like AI perfection and like you can auto-tune anything into perfection I kind of like seeing that and I think that's a good point I think that's a good point I think just like rough and rowdy yeah and I was reminded um I know I've told you before that I've done this like uh Red Fair camping thing SEA one year my friend Amy and I uh made up a song about grilled cheese we were we were trying to bully our friends into making us late night grilled cheeses at the campfire so we made we made up a song on the fly about grilled cheese yeah and then people just kept adding verse like it was like this like people just kept adding verses it's very simple yes but you just need to like come up with a rhyming couplet to sort of get there but I was like oh yeah when we built the grill we made a song about grilled cheese and I was like oh yeah it's a grilled cheese song it had harmonies it had like a refrain and and then people were just adding lyrics to it like that is that is true and then someone wrote it down and it became like sort of enshrined but we did create it on the fly so maybe is it available on Spotify to stream um one can only hope uh I did like that the capturing the communal spirit of a battle waged and survived together and like working to commit that to history in real time the record yeah yeah I thought that was really interesting it's just I think also fair to say that it will not be a song well you know what I was gonna say it not be a song that people will be singing and quoting the way they do the bear and the maiden fair or whatever and yet we have spent basically all of the last few days shouting to each other fish feed fish feed so maybe I should fuck right off maybe it's a banger and hear what the hold steady uh does with it you know something somebody think about it anyway I just uh I'm I'm mixed about it but something I was thinking about is like as they're chanting like fish feed and talking about um you know all the people who died in the battle right uh now we can't see the water because the lake's full of their bones like all that sort of stuff um with his one good eye he lacks a prick like all of that is very good um um what is Jace if not food for fishes I mean Bela did fish him out but like yeah he died in the water like yeah you know and they're like yeah we won this one fish feed fish feed but like the fish was feeding on their side at a different battle you know across the continent yeah I love that and the kind of hush that falls over the the collective when Damon is you know Damon is the only one reading these words but right away before he says aloud the heir to the throne has been killed they can clock it they can tell right away that something is wrong Oscar asks him is something amiss and it's when we're talking about the growth and evolution of Damon's character he did not beat the shit out of the person who brought him the scroll this time as he did in season one so you know progress let me think about we're a long way away from the stepstones but the crowd feeder is always in our heart um yeah I thought on the like does Oscar remind Damon of like is he thinking about Jace and just the young man I did think especially because it is and we love the Damon Alice scene so I was delighted to get the scene that we're gonna sequence that we're gonna talk about next but it is high comedy that Damon is like Jace has been killed yeah this massive battle has transpired and I have been summoned to take to help Raniere take the Iron Throne it could not be a more urgent moment he's like gotta go check in on Big Al hysterical you know what else he does he fixes his hair well I mean the braid the curls I love this this is the wig that I was telling you last week I was like sort of waiting for it's like this kind of half unraveled braid in the back I love it but he does clean it up cleans up the edges wow and like re-twirls the little like four four front pieces you're checking in with the side piece you know you gotta you gotta look sharp you gotta look sharp um I did like that just moment though where he's sitting on the log and he just he just for a second like closes his eyes and kind of takes a breath and lowers his head and like you can see the the grief on his face yeah and like Oscar's like right there it's a it's an interesting moment there's a somberness to it yeah and Oscar Tully it's been two years his voice is is is dropping a wee bit I know it's not quite there I know it's increasingly like because as you know and it's I mean now that Black Alley is is here uh Black Alley we should say for non-book readers uh is a character who uh is proficient in badminton and he's like he's like he's like he's like he's like you'll have seen her singing in the fish feed song she's got this sort of like black makeup little black makeup on her on her face that's Black Alley Blackwood but um Alley Blackwood hopefully she'll get to do some fighting as well as the singing because she's a badass warrior I think so and so of course she's Bloody Ben's aunt and I never miss an opportunity to mention a young Benjikot Bloody Ben and you know we've we're assuming that Oscar is just subbing in for him in full um Benjikot Benji's 11 11. Now that's what made me think of it when you're like Oscar is like grown up yeah Benji's 11 and he cries because there's a lot of bodies which is so good because he's 11 and he's in battle oh throws Black Alley Black Alley's here Oscar Tully's here and Damon says to them to to because he's like I gotta go I gotta check in with Alice and then I gotta go March meet me in Kingsland light garrison at Heron Hall light some some toasty snacks for Vhagar leave it at Heron Hall incredible later when he's lecturing Ulf and Hugh on not he just there's no doubt in his mind that those they're all dead oh that they are all dead crustini and you know what I mean and they are um and he's like come on south yep right yes do you want to break the map out again so they're going south yeah somebody think about yeah Chris and Cole's going north indeed I liked to we will be the queen's fist uh did it make you think of Vader fist the 500 first no I was once again thinking of Bone Temple that's always always Jimmy and his finger always thinking about fingers make the fist great stuff uh Alice we already talked about the most important thing that happens in this scene which is Craxi's drinking water so we can move on to the rest he just looks so cute he just looks so cute and again it's just they're um I appreciate they're just putting dragons in shots where like a dragon doesn't have to be you don't have to be a dragon you don't have to be a dragon you don't have to have Craxi's right there you know what they're doing a lot more of after years of Dave Gonzalez and others pointing out that they never did it oh disembarking I have noticed I have noticed and you and in the House of Dragon Belts they like showed the rigging of like how they uh yeah the blue ladder thing it works I know it looks good it looks great makes you wonder why they weren't always doing it so many disembarkments this season I've noticed I've noticed shout out Dave shout out Dave I meant to text you guys about that um let me ask you a you have to pick yeah okay which of these things would you least like to hear from another person who is standing right next to you saying these things to you about you I have seen that you're coming has been an omen of the end doesn't she say and also or a beginning of something else yes okay so we're lighting okay so we're lighting or go home Damon but do not come back here remember what I told you which was of course you will die in this place I'm gonna go with omen of the end with a with a side helping of the beginning of something else every cloud a silver lining of death I just love the ominous signs and portents portents and signs in every Alice in an Alice exchange it is such a rich she knows no other way text Damon's just like us Joe he's like what are you really up to what's your real purpose been what do you want and what does she tell him she wants Harrenhal she wants a castle you know it's interesting um all right so this is this is a really interesting thing we talked about when we talked about Harrenhal last season yes is there's some like interesting quotes about sort of like where what Harrenhal looks like you you you talked really interestingly on talk the thrones about sort of Alice mentioning the werewood trees that had been raised in order to build it it's in the beams it's you know his head Damon's headboard you know like just werewood wood everywhere but the shape of Harrenhal itself uh Jamie says uh the towers of black Harren's folly appeared at last five twisted fingers of black misshapen stone grasping for the sky this idea of Harrenhal is emblematic of like reaching and grasping or something Baelish who is like awarded Harrenhal at one point he's like fucking great yeah who wants that cursed I want a haunted fucking castle no thank you he says Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it no thank you you know and so like Harrenhal is this like a like the the castle version of a monkey's paw right like everyone who grabs it and Alice says this she's like everyone they've all mismanaged it you know what I mean yeah uh these dumb these dumb dudes don't know what to do with the castle they all think they want it yes it's the surprise It's so big, but it's so cursed. And so it's like, that's the throne for Rhaenyra. That's the dragon for Rhaena. Like, that's what this is. And this is, in castle form, that's what Harrenhal is. I love it. Spooky. Spooky. And then the question is, like, would it be different? I don't want it. Oh, Jon. Would it be different for Alice? Like, is the nature of her mysterious existence and her magic? You know, we talked, we mentioned this on Talk to Thrones on Sunday, but Gale Rankin, the performer, you know, telling Entertainment Weekly last year that Alice, like, could be 400 years old. We have these. I mean, looking great. Yeah. Looking great. You made the Melisandre comp that should, of course, be on our minds. You know, who was this woman? We've shared this fire and blood quote before. A serving wench who dabbled in potions and spells, says monk in a woods witch, claims septent eustaceus. A malign enchantress who bathed in the blood of virgins to preserve her youth, mushroom, naturally, would have us believe. I know that. Don't let people call us cackling witches because of an absolutely iconic two-star review that we got on iTunes. Malign enchantress is pretty hot. Do you prefer from this episode to pull that malign enchantress out of fire and blood or to just go right to court of cunts from Aegon? I prefer malign enchantress. Thank you so much. We have a split vote here on the panel today. All right. Well, you can be head of the court of cunts. And I can be the malign enchantress. Malign enchantress. The merch would sell. But you have to do it in the court of mist and fury, sort of like court of thorn and roses font. Great. I'm through three of the five books and a couple pages of book four. Sergei Moss, don't sue us. Oh, man. Great stuff. But yeah, like Alice's, I loved your Lorax comp last week. She speaks for the trees. Speaking for the trees and this connection to the nature and the people of this place, but just like the magic of it. I love it, too, that is inextricable from the nature of it, the way that Alice has talked about the creatures and maybe is presenting and manifesting as those creatures, right? But like I did. You're team goat now, aren't you? Absolutely team goat. And it's hard not to be when the character is just like, I'm a barn owl. And also a goat. Which would you rather be? A barn owl. You can fly. Yeah. Is it fun to be a goat? They are cute. Well, they're cute and spooky. You can be milked. Could be nice. Getting them in here. I'm good. Thank you so much. I saw a really cute video of an owl taking a. Getting milked? No, taking a bath in a bowl. It was precious. Kind of like washing the tush. That's really cute. That's just my Instagram algorithm. I don't know what to say. An owl you like hang out in the forest at night and like scare people and fly around. I do. Or you could deliver them. You could deliver mail. Owl post. You can do that. All of it. I'm not working if I'm an owl. You're just chilling. I'm a huntress. Are you figuring out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? Three. The world may never know. It's three. I do think the fact that. Because, you know, we talked about this as well, but like Laris citing the curse of Harrenhal, that Alice in a very memorable season one scene after he has burned his father and brother alive. And that's like interesting too. Like what choices do people make that they can then pin on the curse? Where do people see the curse? Uh, acting and guiding when it's the shitty things people do? My favorite in that umbrella is when Alice last season was like, uh, yeah, I'm kind of the maester here. The last maester, I don't know, fled in the night. Really weird. Don't know what happened to him. Could have. Maybe I sent him spooky dreams. Who's to say? Don't know. And like we're reminded here when she's like, I secured the 40,000 river troops for. By murdering an old man. By murdering Grover. Yeah. In his sickbed. I slew a Muppet for you. Tough. Laris had that like. My dad, you know, thought maybe a maligned enchantress did something to my foot. Sorcery. Sorcery in the mix when I was a baby. So there's all of that. Like how many things has Alice been doing to try to get these mortal men out? Out. Even like we've been talking about, you know, the. Yeah, you did these things for Damon. You helped him amass this army. Is it just to get that army out of there, right? You told the seeds to go to the gullet. Was it to help? Or to get them out of there so they don't burn your castle, et cetera. I mean. It's all interesting. But I have to ask. Yeah, tell me. Do you think fewer people would have died or fewer walls or arches would have been scorched and crumbled if Vermithor and Silverwing and Seasmoke had taken down Vhagar? I feel like Vhagar did plenty of damage all on her own, you know? I think it's probably worse if they're all there. I think that Vhagar at least took out some support beams in a contained fashion. Whereas if the dragons are all thrashing into each other, I mean, especially a fucking Ulf is in the mix. It's. Come on. It's absolute chaos. Not the thoughts. But so, Jo, it's not just the question of the magic and what Alice sees there. It's Daemon's response. This is something that we were fascinated by. Carlos, can we see this? I will speak with her. Perhaps there is some other reward she may extend your way. Some other reward? I asked for food and you offered me rubies. For all they're worth. They will never satisfy my hunger. That's spark from Daemon. Oh, my God. He's like, it's still working for me, honestly. He did not literally slap Alice in the face the way he did Ulf, but. We don't give castles to midwives. First of all, put some respect on midwives' names, by the way. Secondly, fuck you, dude. A midwife. I mean, like, by the way. No name, no title, no noble husband. No, no, fuck you. Brutal. Fuck you, dude. Yeah, I thought this was really good. I think what is really. What is really interesting about this episode is. Like, what has value, right? You offer me rubies. Yeah. But, you know, that's not what I want, right? Alan, I have nothing to give you now but my name, and yet I count that as more worth than a mountain of gold, right? Yeah. And. I have gold enough to buy her a birth ball, blah, blah, like, talking about, like, what it is that. What it is that Aegon wants versus what it is that Laerys, like, can give him, et cetera, et cetera. So I just think all of that is really interesting to me, but, um. Ulf would love some rubies. He wanted a castle. He's already pissed. Also, here's the deal. Inside of this episode. Now, we know that Alicent did a lot of work behind the scenes. Yes. But if Daemon were to tell the tale of taking King's Landing, he would say, you know what got us the throne? The loyalty of my men, my gold cloaks, who I used to throw some raging parties for, and I let them rape whoever they wanted, and we gilded people, and it was great. We were bros together. That's team management. That's loyalty. Right. Yeah. How's he managing his team these days? Yeah. You know, like, he's doing a good job with the Rivermen and the Winterwolves. Like, he's just scrapping it up with them, and they're gonna be like, Daemon, what a guy. Alice is not gonna say that. No. Hugh and Ulf are not gonna say that. Taking for granted the people who are helping them achieve what they are achieving currently. And I understand it's different. It's different to be like, I'll be the benevolent boss of the gold cloaks. Yeah. Then here are two upjump dragon riders who are, you know, like, it's more threatening to him for them to, like, ask for things and want things because they have dragons, and that's, like, a different math to him. Right. But at the same time, I'm just sort of like, here's the payoff. Yes. Of a lesson. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And you're refusing to learn from it. Yeah. When you see something like the Luthor-Daemon scene, or even something like Alicent and Rhaenyra and the conversation between Daemon and Mysaria about, like, can that still hold? This history that they have together? Like, putting stock in earning, earning loyalty from somebody and forging a bond that could potentially stand the test of time. The fact that there are, like, turns and cloak turns, or just turns across the divide, across the teams, and inside of the teams, there are all of these, like, wait, do you know whether you could trust this person? Are you giving them? Are you giving them the thing that they need so that they stick around? It's just, like, a really interesting place to find these characters. I think with Ulf and Hugh, it's, it's, there's so much nuance because, like, you could also still say, as we talked about a lot last season in covering the sewing, it's insane to put these people you don't know, to give them weapons of mass destruction. You don't know them. Ulf especially. And you have given them this power. Ulf especially, right? So. Adam, Adam is an angel. An angel. But it makes it all the more important. It makes it all the more important. You have this tool now that we have armed you with. And, like, maybe when you ask me a question, me, Damon, I'll at least, like, show you the fucking dignity to answer you before just marching upstairs. Rhaenyra doesn't, when Ulf and Hugh show up so they can all mount their dragons to head to King's Landing, Rhaenyra doesn't even speak to them. Does not even speak to them. So, certainly, certainly something to track. You're a great manager. Just want to let you know. Thanks. Thanks. There might be some differing opinions among the group, but I appreciate it. It's kind of you to say. Courtless. Yeah. He lost everyone on his team. What is my name? Sorry. Alan and Adam searching for their father by sea and by sky. I liked when we got one Moondancer and Bela flew overhead. We got that shot of Alan looking up. It reminded me of Adam looking up when Seasmoke was passing overhead. You know, the dragons sort of entering the fray for the folks who grew up with the fleet. Bela. comes to help. Alan has been shouting us father's name looking for him. And Bela comes to not only like help with the search, but to just talk to him. And this is an interesting sequence between these two characters. She's like, don't give up, right? People have been doubting whether my grandsire is going to make it through. And we know that that's true. I mean, part of the reason that Vaemond was able to go into the fucking throne room and call Lucerys a bastard and challenge Rhaenyra's claim and Luke's claim as heir to Driftmark that publicly is because Corlys was about to drop dead. Everyone thought he was going to die. I can't believe you've brought up Vaemond multiple times. I think that's the third time. That's nuts. What is going on? No one else remembers. Two caracal bulls and three Vaemonds. What is happening? My God. I'd like to apologize to you and everyone. Here's a question I have. Did Corlys need rescuing? He was like, he was basically on the shore and his and his face was above the waterline. And he was just like sort of being like buffeted a bit against the rocks, but was not in like real danger of drowning, it seemed like. I feel like he would have gotten up on his own eventually. He would have been okay. Yeah. Does the fact that he- Especially since they don't take him directly to a maester, they just take him to a log, you know? To a log to sit and reflect and look at his burning legacy. Yeah. Does the fact that he was completely fine despite being thrown into the drink in his kit, does it, where are you on Tylan Lannister watch given that Corlys is a-okay? I genuinely don't know what to say to you about this. You think he's dead? You think he's toast? I, I just think it's so, like, we, we're curious because we don't, Tylan- Oh, man. doesn't die in the Battle of the Gullet in the book. So we're like, did they just kill this character? We're not sure. Can whatever he does in the book be done by someone else? Or does he have to make a triumphant return? And if he makes a triumphant return, are people going to remember who the hell he is? Well, let me tell you this. Otto Hightower came back in this episode and we hadn't seen him for two calendar years. But he was a main character on the show for an entire season. That was never the case for either Jason or Tylan Lannister. Jason Lannister, really wanted to be a main character. I feel like if Tylan shows up, people are gonna be like, didn't that guy's head go on a pike? You're probably right. It's worse because they're twins. I don't know. And then they'll come to this podcast and we will say he mud wrestled with Lohar. Don't you remember? Come on. Laris mentions him in this episode. Tylan, that fucker. The legacy lives on. The legacy lives on. Hashtag Tylan lives. I'll give that to you. Hashtag make Solo 2 happen. I think he's dead. Hashtag Tylan lives. Let's make a bet. Okay, what should we bet? Because we genuinely don't know. I have no idea. And I would say my confidence is like, eh. I feel similarly kind of. Let's have the bad babies weigh in. HobbitsandDragons.gmail.com. If you can think of the stake we should make on the life of Tylan Lannister, everyone's favorite and most important character in House of the Dragon. Great. Put it on the board. And then if it maybe pays off in season four, we won't even remember the bet, let alone the character. Oh my God. Imagine if Tylan doesn't come back till season four. Seems completely in play to me. It does. There are only six episodes left in season three now. Season three is almost over. It's crazy. The other thing that Bela does, in addition to saying- If Jefferson Hall- Have hope. Messages you, no insider trading. If you get insider info- Jefferson, hit me up. No. Hit me up. If you're listening, let me know. No. No, I would never deceive you. I have no secrets from you. We loved you in Tenet. Message me. Oh my God. Incredible. Bela is also just trying to help Alan understand who Corlys is. And this was nice, not only to watch kind of a bond forming between Bela and Alan here, but because Bela does have history. She was Corlys and Rhaenys' ward, right? These are people she grew up with, her grandparents, the closeness, life in their home. And the comfort that Bela had in challenging Corlys, but also Bela's ability to reach Corlys, right? Like when Rhaenyra wanted Corlys to be Hand, it was Bela who finally, she was like, you're salt and sea, I'm fire and blood. Yeah. But let's have a chat about how you're processing all of this and what is the appropriate way to actually channel these emotions. She's like, I'm Gryffindor. You need a slither puff. And then she says how tired she is of losing people, which was quite sad. And then later in the episode, we'll talk about it here, Adam finds Corlys washed up, like you noted. And then the whole family sits together, Corlys, Adam, Alan, and Bela, looking out at the ruins of High Tide. Yeah. And Corlys is like, Alan. Yeah. And only Alan. It's like, Adam, you've got a dragon. You're good. Alan. Alan. We've had a lot of conversations about how I failed you, though. I will give you my name. Alan, you, my son. Adam, you're also here. Adam smiled, though. He seemed pleased. He seemed pleased with the development. He's like, buy the transitive property. Am I included? I'm not included in this deal. I just would have, like, and also you, Adam. I know it is. Alan Velaryon sounds great. Adam of Hull? Adam Velaryon. Come on. That's a wonderful surname. You know, they're looking at High Tide, Jo, and we should just say, because I wouldn't be shocked if some people were watching this and they're like, castle looks fine. Certainly a lot of smoke, a bloom of smoke, but like, maybe go check, see if anything survived. We do know from book canon, it's a wrap. Spicetown, the whole town burned. Every member of Corliss' household of the Velaryon household hunted down and killed. It's, we've entered a new phase. It's over. It's Jover. It's all over. It's Jover. What did you, so when Alan says, when Corliss says, you know, I have nothing to offer you now, but my name and Alan says, you know, that's all I've ever wanted. I thought it looked like Corliss, it was interesting to think about Corliss' relationship to like the idea of Corliss. I thought it looked like Corliss. I thought it looked like the idea of the name, right? You know, we've talked about this over the seasons, like the history does not remember blood. It remembers names, but to think of simultaneously, like the consistency and the variance inside of one idea, like Corliss has also centered the name as the thing that matters, but it was about how that name was forged and established through achievement, ambition, wealth, might, you know, all of the, yeah. And so the idea that just the, the, could be the part of the name that mattered. As we watch Otto die, lesson learned, as we watch Otto die. Yeah. This episode, we should consider Corliss' hand in all of this as well, because Corliss' ambition of getting his kin on the throne has, has played a role in all of this, right? So he's like, we'll marry Laenor to Rhaenyra, Laena to Daemon. You know, I will pretend that Jace and Joffrey and, and, and Luke are my grandchildren. So, you know, a Valyrian will sit on the throne, even though we, we renegotiated the name or whatever, but like one of my kin is going to sit on the throne. Jace is going to sit on the throne. Guess what? He's going to marry Bela. Bela's also my kin. You know, I'm just going to get all kinds of Valyrian blood on the throne. That is very important to me. Those paths to the throne are not, you know, Jaff's still here, but you know, no one knows that Jaff's still here. Um, but like also Bela, does Bela seem suitable, suitably heartbroken that Jace is dead? I think given that we never saw them smooch and they never really seemed like in love and love, they just really seemed like great pals. Um, I don't know, but also, also, uh, her path to the throne, she was supposed to be queen and now she's not going to be queen. She doesn't really seem to care. I thought that Bela seemed, um, to be carrying the weight of just the family's circumstance and the fact that all of these terrible things happen to everybody around them all the time. And how devastating it is, how tired she is of losing people. She has to do all of the emotional labor in this scene. She's like, let me explain Corlys to you. I, the woman, will explain to these men why they are so emotionally constipated around each other. Not you, Adam. You're perfect. Adam is perfect. I love the Corlys point that you made. And I think it's interesting too, because Rhaenys, when Rhaenys was around, did a consistently excellent job. And I think it's interesting because Rhaenys, when Rhaenys was around, did a consistently excellent job of pointing that out to him, right? Of calling him out on his complicity in what had befallen their family. And he, I think, you know, Otto has some evolution, you know, the dinner before the three, this is a three strong boys toast really sent it all to shit. Otto had a little bit of like a smile and a nod where even with Otto, you thought for a moment, could he find his way to accepting this? But mostly I think we could say that Corlys has in a way that Otto can't claim to have, even though they both have that, you know, and it's, of course, that parallel is, is tantalizing given their hatred for each other, right? You know, one of the things that really united Corlys and Daemon back in the day, the Stepstones days was despising Otto. So all of these characters, the fact that they have certain parallels in their behaviors and their tendencies makes the fact that they despise each other all the richer, ultimately. Uh, it's, it's going to be interesting to see where Corlys goes moving forward. I hope Corlys has a really good day when he finds out Otto's dead, you know? Me too. I hope he fucking loves it. You know, Daemon is thrilled. Uh, we should just note that in Game of Thrones, you know, as we've seen before. You don't have to guess, Daemon's like, well, well, well. Ooh, turning on each other like spiders. He's loving every second of it. Daemon's just like, the rats are, what, uncommon big. Yes, uncommon big. Incredible, by the way, that like, Orwyle managed to buy even a minute by saying, go down to the Black Cells where you definitely could have just gone on your own anyway, and there you will find Jasper Wilde, but whatever, they're all making it work. Um, like, uh, the 11th Doctor making an entrance tone to his voice, and he's like, the rats are in Corlys. You know, it's just like, just like the Dr. Swanning into some sort of like, you know, alien fracas and just being like, well, this weird thing I said, you know. Could have just fixed his bow tie and we would have been right there. You know, look, he's ultimately doing what he finally, finally doing what he pledged and helping Rhaenyra, but he's still Daemon. He wants to be the center of things. He can't help himself. He's a showboat. He didn't make his own crown this time. Exactly. I loved that crown. I really did love that crown. That was a great one. The short hair too. That was fun. We've really seen some amazing Daemon hair over the years. Wonderful. Speaking of blood hair. So, legitimizing a bastard requires, we should just say, royal decree. We know this from Game of Thrones. We've seen this, right? Think of like, Ramsay Snow becoming Ramsay Bolton, appealing to the ruling authority to push that through. Or when Stannis, who thought he was king, was like, Jon Snow, would you like to be Jon Stark? Or Jon Targ. Listen, I don't know the answer to this. So, it's Adam. Adam. Adam and Alan of Hull. Yeah. If Corlys recognizes them, then they get to have their like, fun geographical bastard names. What is it around that region, would you say? Oh, interesting. Because like, Driftmark doesn't have its own. Yeah. Like I said, they're in the Crownlands, right? Okay. I guess. So, they're going to stick with just of Hull, I guess. Because the Crownlands doesn't have a fun one. Let's see. Let's go through them all. So, we've got. Gendry Rivers. Edric Storm. Storm. Rivers. Water. Flower. Pike. Snow. Sand. Hmm. All right. Snow. Sand. Storm. Flowers. Hill. Hill. Stone. Rivers. Waters. Pike. Hillstone. Yeah. So, they'd have to be waters. Waters. Because of the Crownlands. Yeah. Okay. That was good. Yeah. Gendry. Yeah. It was Gendry Waters, right? Didn't they fuck up Gendry? Maybe. Because. It's like the. Yeah. Great stuff. Anyway. Gendry. Of Hall is a great one. It's a great one. Of Hall. Adam Waters. Alan Waters. Yeah. Pretty sick. Pretty good. Not as sick as Valerian would be. Valerian would be pretty cool. Speaking of sick. I. Top of the stuff. I just. I can't believe how good the Eggon and Laris stuff is. I mean, I can. But I can't. And I'm wondering if you think it's possible to just pull. Since I don't think anyone would call House of the Dragon a comedy. Just these scenes. And bundle them. And nominate the Eggon and Laris show for best comedy. Just so that they have the honor of finishing as a runner up to Widow's Bay. What do you think? What do you think? Can we make it happen? I think. I'm mistaken. I was surprised. Was like an incredible line delivery. Unbelievable. From our guy, Matthew Needham. Just like really, really good. Like. And him refreshing us all. Tiling up the triarchy. That's what's going on here. I mean, I just thought it was really well done. Also, the. The Ravencart. The rookery. And then sort of talking in the behind the scenes about how like. Yeah. This is how Ravens get back to. Which is very strange to me. This is how Ravens get back to where they started. I'm like, you can't. Don't homing pigeons just like go home? Yeah. You got to cart a Raven around? Doesn't make a lot. Seems inefficient. Real inefficiency. Yeah. Is that like their refractory period? They need to like some R&R? This is like their sauna and like cold blood. What's wrong with the refractory period of the Raven? I don't know. I. You know, we already talked about gloating. Fucking court of cunts, which was iconic and hysterical. But it wasn't the funniest moment of this scene. And I think that requires a clip. It's the scream. It's the screaming and the wailing in pain. I think it's Laris booping the guy in the head with the cage. I thought that was really funny. Incredible. This is just hysterical. I guess this was Tom Glincarney's idea for him to go ham on the guy with the arrow. But yeah, I thought it was Laris booping the guy in the head with the cage. I thought that was really good. That was really good. What I loved about the Aegon shivving is you like there's a way to read it as, oh, it feels good back in the thick of it, back in the fight, the cry of battle. But I think given the standing, do you or do you not need milk of the poppy because of your debilitating anguish through line? I like to think that he is just forcing himself to shiv this guy, but is so bowled over by the pain that he can't help but cry out. Really amusing. Joe. Yes. They managed to escape. As you noted on Talk the Thrones, the fun kind of element of this, the wrinkle of, you know, his brother, Aemond, who wants him dead, is the one who secured the triarchy, who have come across this wagon and thus facilitated this. Facilitated the escape. Right. And also the fact that Team Black, quote unquote, another like, what is really, what does victory really mean if all of these things happen? Some of which you see and some of which you don't unknowingly lose the usurper who actually was back in their snare, was back in their grasp. Great stuff because the foe, like they pushed ashore. Yeah. But they have different, different ideas amid escape here about where to go. Laris, they were on the path to Duskendale. The Staunton men were going to take them to Duskendale, nearest port, and then ship them to Dragonstone. And Laris is like, I've got the satchel. I've got the gold. Let's get to the forest for cover. We still can go to Duskendale. Aegon wants to head further north, further up the coast to Rook's Rest, where, as he notes, Cole has left a garrison from the Battle of Rook's Rest that, long in the dying, Aegon believes will be loyal to him. And then, yes, this is where Sunfire, his beloved dragon, was, to quote Kristen Cole. Long in the dying. Long in the dying. Chris noted this on Talk of Thrones. Laris's whole plan is let's escape and wait. Bide our time. Yeah. Aegon's actions here are not the actions of a character who is content to wait in the wings for long. Right. Duskendale, Rook's Rest, whichever, it's just due east to Dragonstone, and they're still pretty close to King's Landing. They have not escaped the kind of thick of the character set in the action here. Alicent. We're going to do all the Alicents. We're going to do all the Alicent machinations and maneuverings in one stretch here. Because these are kind of like stretched across the episode. We go in and out of different Alicent scenes. But we're going to hit them all here at once. So she watches Vhagar and Aemon fly away, right? She's like, time to go. She's like, I did it. Time to move. Yeah. First up, Dix-a-plenty has to go down to find Ser Luthor Largent and the city. Watch. Yeah. The risk. The risk that Alicent is taking. Scene after scene here. You know, we talked last week about how bold it was to write that letter to Ormond, right? Every, she's having this conversation with Luthor, but every person sees that she's there. Inside of this episode, Rickard. Finds out. Spills. To Jasper. To Jasper. So this is, there's real danger here in terms of like who has clocked what Alicent is doing and could reveal it. I think, frankly, in a way that makes, there's this rich element with what's happening with Alicent and like what is chronicled in Fire and Blood. And what isn't, as we've talked about for seasons now, where on the one hand, the kind of gall of like, okay, this is presented to us in the text when Luthor turns the cloak as, as you noted earlier, the bond with Damon, which he does, you know, he does say here as well. And maybe without that, Alicent wouldn't have been able to convince him. But Alicent's role on that is not recorded to history, right? Oh yeah. Completely erased. Erased. It's actually like in Fire and Blood, I believe that sequence with the gold cloaks is like described as unbeknownst to Alicent, right? So there's that. But the flip side of it is like. And she's like, let's get a council of men, Rhaenyra. I know. And have a new vote. The great council went fine last time. Everything was fine. Look where we are. Did you have any, was there any moment for you in this episode, this sequence of going to appeal to the Hightower soldiers at the Scorpions where you were like, it becomes implausible that at no point in Fire and Blood or in the histories, it's anyone like. Oh no, no, no. And actually Alicent Hightower had a hand in this or no? I feel like the work of women. Yeah. Often gets ignored. You know? Yep. And if they're like, I don't know, the woo woo vegetarian queen said no bees should be harmed. You know, like Helena was up here. I don't know. When we meet Helena, right? She's in the, in the gardens. That's right. Doing her bug stuff with her bug journal. Shout out. What's really fun is like another, I believe I'm right about this, that this is another connection to Claire Kilner's episode, We Light the Way. Because that's where, when Larys finds Alicent in the garden and they're talking about like the flowers, stuff like that. She's still wearing red. She hasn't switched to green yet. Right. So I believe that's in We Light the Way. Yes. And that's when Larys is just sort of like starting to drip poison into her mind. And it's a, it's a big moment of, of she's already queen at that point. You know, so it's not quite when she talks to Helena about being happier before she was queen. Right. So it's not quite Alicent in the garden with Rhaenyra before she was queen. There's that innocence layer, but it's sort of like Alicent in the garden when she was, was still like mostly well-meaning and trying to like build bridges with Rhaenyra. Yeah. And Larys, you know, just the snake in the Garden of Eden, just sort of like making problems for everyone, you know? And so to find Helena there in the garden in her like innocent state, I thought was like a really nice location for Claire Kilner to return to. I love that. That's, that's a great shot. Because I was thinking of all those Alicent Rhaenyra moments when they were young and what a central location this was for them. But the Larys one is really interesting too. Because like. if I recall, he's talking about like the flower that's out of place, right? So then you have the cop here with the bug and it's not the season. And these elements, like something that feels off in the natural order because of what these people are doing. Did you take that to mean, a lot of the viewers took that to mean that like this was an inside joke about the fact that this episode doesn't belong in this season of television? Well, I think given that we also then after that glimpse, you can freeze frame on the book, the journal that Allison picks up, which has a drawing of Butterfly. And this quote, the lines are distinct as if drawn with quill. They are said to cause death to people around them while living. But so far, I remain alive. I think difficult not to think of the George R.R. Martin infamous blog post, Beware the Butterflies. This hadn't occurred to me. I think this is a really fun interpretation. I mean, who knows? But it would be really funny. Maybe it's wink upon wink in this sequence. Via production design. Ryan Condal has taken his like return parry at George R.R. Martin. Elysium of Noth is the name of the butterfly. That's a sick name. Elysium? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Oh, Helena rules. That's just my take. Her bug journal is great. The bug journal is great. The I'd like to raise chickens is great. The no bees shall be harmed and the sweet little facial expression. Wonderful. But also, oh my God, no bees shall be harmed. Yeah. Via who plays Helena is so funny because she has this great. Great. Like I'm pretending to be exactly who I am, which is I donate to PETA. I'm vegetarian, you know, blah, blah, blah. But then she like gives this look to her mom. Like I did it. Nailed it. I crushed that. I nailed it. Yeah. I loved that. I thought that was so charming and so good. And I like too that Helena in this stretch is like asking some hard questions. Right. I mean, we talk a lot about Helena's dreams and visions and prophecies and like what does what has she seen in that and what in those and what hasn't she. But just the way that she was like seemed surprised by what Alison was saying about Rhaenyra's on her way. And then the line of questioning about like, wait, but like you, you did this. Remember, you made Aegon king. Like you did this. That whole stretch, like it's not just the cute little goofy moment. She was asking some hard hitting questions here in a way that I appreciated and trying to piece together her own tapestry of understanding of like what has happened and how. A tapestry of understanding. I just love Helena. Do you think that Daemon, now that he and Helena are in the same place. Is going to be like, hey, remember when you were my dream? I hope he asks about it. That was weird. That would be great. Should we talk about it? I hope it comes up. You were my dream. I hope it comes up. And then the next thing he'd say would be a weird, really weird things happened in my dream. So was my mom. Yeah. You showing up from across space and time in my dream. Didn't even crack the top five. Did you see that hot naked woman with three CGI baby dragons? Did you hear the clip clop of the green man? Daemon's the best. What did you make of Alison saying to Helena? Because she says her daughter's happiness, right? That Helena saying she was happier before she was queen. Cut her. Cut her deep. And she wants her child to be happy. And this is like heartening and beautiful for a couple reasons. One, nobody ever gave a shit about doing that for Alison. That is not a gift her father ever gave her. Quite the opposite, right? Right. But also, this contrast of Alison making a decision, I am going to try to protect and preserve the people I love and not think about the greater picture. Conditionally. Conditionally, for sure. But Rhaenyra is kind of having to assess the others. The females that I love. Yes. Yes. The other side of that calculus is interesting. But then I thought the language of you I may yet redeem was really interesting because that is about Helena, but it's also about Alison. It's about this absolution. It's definitely about her. It's definitely about being a bad mom. It's definitely about Alison. She's like, Aegon sucks. Aemon sucks. He kissed me. That sucked. That was tough. I had to ask Gawain if Darren is nice. I hear Darren's great. I hear he's great. But I had to ask because I don't know. For being far away from me. Also, you know, and we talked about this before, but if Alison is ready to give up Aegon, that means she's ready to give up Aemon and Darren as well. Yeah. Tough beat for Darren who, as far as you know, never did anything wrong in his life. Never did anything wrong in his life. Plays a beautiful instrument. A sweet boy. A sweet boy. And she's like, well, he's not Helena or Jaehaera, so I don't care. This remains kind of my one note on the end of this episode, which I thought was broadly exquisite and wonderful and sets us forward in a remarkable way, is like, the looks that passed between them were charged and electric, and I thought just the performances were incredible. I want to boot up the next episode the second that ends. I don't think there's a plausible version of this. Where Alison believes that Otto doesn't also have to die. Just because the deal was a son for a son, like, Otto can't make it out of this. I think she thought he was already dead. Like, he's just been missing for two years. No, for like, many, many episodes. So, like, I don't think, I mean, we'll see what that fallout is. I think it's a horrifying thing to walk in on. Yes. But I don't think she could be like, how dare you kill my father. I don't think that that's the vibe. We're in agreement, because I think there has been a reception, a little bit, I have seen some, like, she, Alison, many people are saying, Alison's going to be so mad that when you're a killed Otto, they agree to a son for a son. I don't think, that's not how our read. It's more like, I think she walks in. She's like a son for a son, and also my other sons. A few sons for a son. And anyone else. Anyone wearing green, throw her under the bus. Anyone who's not. Except Helena and Jahara. Hiding under these clearly recognizable and discernible as ours robes. Alison and Damon have not always gotten along, but Alison really could have taken a tip from Damon, Mr. Mercer. Murder Cloak, about how to evade immediate detection here. Even Kristen Cole's stupid hat would have helped in this situation. Here's my note. What a thing to say. Here's my note. What a thing to say. I know, you talking about Misaria's accent glowingly, and me talking about Kristen Cole's hat. Helena, I know that she doesn't want to ride her dragon, Dreamfire, but she has a fucking dragon. Yeah. So, like, could she and Alison not have hop-skipped and jumped onto Dreamfire and flown off into the Great Blue Yonder? So, they would have to get to the dragon pit. You can't be like, Dreamfire! Dreamfire! Dreamy! Two weeks in a row now that we have suggested, why doesn't the character just call this dragon to their window and fly away? I think sort of, like, telepathically land. I think so. It's at least worth a try. Yeah. Dreamy! Dreamy! Oh, sweet Dreamfire. Or was there apprehended? Dreamfire, burn all these people. We gotta go. Except Helena wouldn't do that. No. She's a peaceful creature. Yeah. No beasts harmed, but there was once a beast beneath the tree. The board and a lot of small folk were harmed, and everyone seemed fine with that, so. Just smooshed. Joe, speaking of harming the legions. Yeah. And or by legions, very small garrison left behind. Aemon, taken Harrenhal at a cost. Kristen and Gawain finally see Vhagar fly overhead. That's the only scene we get with our best beloveds. And they're like, on to Harrenhal, finally at last. Due north. Aemon lands on Vhagar, and we have seen, I mean, obviously we have the history and the canon of Vhagar and the Conqueror. But there you go. We've seen Vhagar in these mythical moments. But we've, in just this show, seen Daemon land on Caraxes and Rhaenyra fly in on Syrax. So we have other dragon arrivals, obviously. You know, the seeds have been there as well. The scale of Vhagar. Claire Kilner said King Kong. She's going for King Kong. I mean, holy shit. It was effectively rendered here. Which is funny, because Godzilla's right there. But sure. I know. King Kong. I know. Interesting. Godzilla is right there with Vhagar. Yeah, this is incredible. Watching, you know, we had a lot of fun watching this. We had talked about this in the trailer. But watching Aemon, like, stalk into the castle, very similar shaped to Daemon. And to remind folks that in one of his dreams where he is not fucking his mom, Daemon dreamt of Aemon in the castle and was following him. And then he turns around and, oops, it's just Daemon himself. Because Daemon's like, well, I've read the book. We're foils of each other. Anyway, so Aemon comes in, and in his armor, his sick armor that they had, like, a really great feature talking. Talking about how they fashioned this armor, his, like, one-eyed helm. That was cool. But, like, well, he might as well have the extra protection, because he doesn't need to see anything. That was a neat detail. Really cool. Kills a bunch of people. Something that I saw people talking about is, many people are saying, so he's got his, the Valyrian seal stored, right? Yeah, Blackfire, yeah. It's called Blackfire. Yep. Not as cool as Orphan Maker, but it'll do. Orphan Maker! Rah! He's got the cape. He's got the cat's paw dagger. And we talked about this in the trailer watch, right? That we saw that he had the cat's paw dagger. That's double Valyrian steel. Sure. Yeah. No one that we've ever seen has ever done double Valyrian steel, right? I mean, Viserys just to kind of sit around. A walking stick and a belt ornament does not count. Like, no. Just using it to accessorize. Wait till you see the ripples in the light. Fighting with double Valyrian steel. Sick. And then also, let's put some respect on Simon Strong and the various other Strongs who die here. Yeah. Who's been killed by the cat's paw dagger? Night King. Baelish. Spoiler. The Night King, Peter Baelish, and Simon Strong. Good company. Hey, Carlos, can we get a side-to-side of Simon Strong on the Damon and Eamon mirror front? How he received both of his unwelcome guests? This poor fucker. He just wants to eat in peace. He's like, stop. Can you guys just stop? charging into my dining room to eat some goose my god so damon it's like i don't really trust that you're not trying to poison me but he sits you don't need treats yeah not amand but we like to talk about the mirrors and we also have a nice side by side of just their their armor as they arrive to to harrenhal carlos is crushing it with the visual aids here uh amand the the mirrors of the landing the dragon the cutting down you know alice has that great line to damon in season two it's it's a touch late to be talking about a strange castle putting its people to the sword there's the alice encounter the difference of what happens when they meet simon strong and his kin though is quite notable because damon doesn't trust that he's not going to be poisoned but he does sit and he treats right and he engages in to the best extent that he can diplomacy now i wouldn't say he thrives on that front but he doesn't just immediately start cutting them down the bars in hell and amand did not clear it correct let's be clear yeah he limboed under that bar and killed simon strong and a couple other strong boys not before one of the strong boys got a shiv in him and we should say we said this on talk the thrones but like in this passage in fire and blood part of the reason why amand kills simon strong and and the rest of the strong household is his history with people with that surname meaning jace and you know joffrey and and luke and all of them the strong boys can't wait to end the strong family line here and there's also just the fact that like simon the fact that simon greets him warmly and is like all right we didn't expect you but come sit welcome it actually for amon just reinforces that simon turned the castle over too easily to damon flipping and flopping he's like you're done he's trying to pull a lyris which is like no matter who invades i'm ready to welcome them alice also yeah ready to welcome sort of seemingly yeah but i like that she show one of my our favorite things about alice greeting damon is that everyone is kneeling and alice just like walks in and her knees are like my knees don't bend not for you sir no she does not bend the knee for him and then we see her just sort of like looming over amon here and like you know we were asking chris what he thought that exchange looked like i'm just excited to see it play out but here they are amon and alice in harrenhal yeah with the mortal wound that stabbing is a a show choice this is a new little element here and i i thought it was a great choice both to have amon who you know is this fearsome fabled warrior who rides the biggest dragon and actually finally puts on armor for once still just because of the hubris that uh waylays all of these characters get caught by a guy who's no fighter at all uh incredible detail on an incredible touch good job guy you died anyway a lot of death via like cheek jaw wound in this season so far that's a that's a signature hot d move so far you know who else died that way who vaymond the main the prosthetic having the toes just an all-time bit of press i just thought i would bring up our favorite character vaymond fourth time is it four i believe it's four vegas did not have that one on the board folks no they didn't no they didn't um and then yeah like the the kind of helpless aspect of being prone at alice's feet as he's bleeding out but also like you know those vulnerable visuals we have of amon or like him naked curled up with sylvie drinking the mother's milk so this is just great really really exciting to see how old is alice uh could be 400 years could be 400 years old well what's that gonna do to a guy with a mommy complex tune in to find out the milfiest of all milfs oh my god alice jesus talk about something to put on the merch i love it i'm sorry damon the seeds damon is back he has flown to dragonstone and after chatting with alice after chatting with alice after redoing his hair after participating in the battles that he's not there for in the book he's you know this is all a little show update here for our guy matt smith it's all working and we already talked about this exchange with these guys but he's just like guys it was two days often you he just lays into them there's the slap which we talked about but the withering rebuke i was unaware that her grace the queen had required of you in this moment or any other your thoughts i mean this is this could not be more condescending or more of a diminishment like this is fucking really brutal and they did fuck up but is this the way to navigate it probably not damon um what would you have done would you have said like oaf does not want to be there yeah he's like camping sucks i don't want to be here right if you're q and adam especially if you're adam are you just like i'll stay here you go find out what the queen wants us to do yeah you know yeah q and adam had stayed there you know like you don't want to be caught alone with vagar for sure for sure yeah but like go find out what we're supposed to do or like send a message yeah yeah i don't know adam's like i gotta go to the gullet and just sit out this entire king's landing invasion incredible moment that went off here it's like adam left too adam left too my god tom bennett so good oh amazing uh and then he finds masaria damon finds masaria sure does i loved your comment on talk the thrones about the shot of the two of them looking like a like a painting like when they're sitting on that bench together i just love that framing in the distance and then like the unknowable figures of history he's in the dark armor she's in the light dress and their hair you know it's just this like real yin yang sort of yeah i love that i went back and looked at it after you said that i just really love it so much well last time i said that someone did paint that so never mind i'm not asking anyone to paint something but like that would be a cool painting to have paint it masaria and damon at the end of a hallway yeah that would be great or i don't think they've even made the meme yet that you asked for so i don't know if painting is happening babies what are you doing what are you doing take me through this this exchange between damon and masaria and all of the different aspects of their history with each other with raniera raniera's history with alice and so many elements of this were called upon here in this exchange uh i guess i'll sum it up with a tweet i saw which is like that feeling when your husband and your side piece talk about you getting back together with your situationship um that covers it i think yeah so david and masaria used to fuck yes david and raniera have certainly fucked a plenty uh masaria and and raniera smooch did they do more than that could be even if it's just the smooch damon has clocked the vibe sexual attention clocked it and he's and so but more than anything more than like the the sort of tangled sexual web we're weaving here yeah which plenty of people would also include alicent and raniera's vibes inside of that sure yeah uh what we're doing right now is we're jockeying for who's got like prime placement in raniera's ear who's got the most influence on her right saria getting a little sweaty with her like hey remember who was loyal to you i hope you send for me here's the crown you're gonna need it you know and damon's like girl come on that was a little that was a little needy you know but uh man they're both worried about alicent and they both are house of our listeners and they're like did you hear they were girls together they were girls together i like that even they can find common ground and it's not trusting alicent yeah you know um i really i liked with dame i really love with damon i mean he's he's our he's our share he actually is our shared favorite character right he's a high on the list there are a lot there are a lot it's tough he's up there matt matt's i don't know like who's my favorite character in house of the dragon it's really hard do i have to pick someone i want to like root for or do i have to pick some no i don't obviously i don't yeah actually when you like to watch genuinely think it's like so yes i'm sorry it's not damon it's not the car i can only be myself it's it's either laris or alice like that's that's where i am it's the truest version of you yeah and we are lucky to be here to witness a witch or a schemer i really think those two are which stuff go i do love damon in this episode and i and i i think it it's interesting um again once again my fave history of westerners podcast like aziz was was dropping those like quotes about damon from the text that are just about like sort of like the way in which he was both admired and reviled in the kingdom and how you get sort of the full scope of him inside of this episode that this is like an incredible emma rainier episode but it's a really good damon episode too and especially for like when emma and matt talk about season two you know emma darcy talked about being in the throne room this is the the walk to the bloody walk to the throne is the first thing they filmed coming back to season two and emma was like being back and there was something about being back on the set of the red king and the red king was like being back on the set of the red king and the red king was like yeah i really felt like i was back in the heart of the show that i'd been off on like dragonstone island for so long and matt smith has said i would say some less diplomatic things about like finally back with some actors that and i'm just like kill rank and rules like you got to share but they love being at but he was out on harrenhal island you know so they're like sort of like back in the heart of the story the two of them and this is just like an incredible showcase for for both of them it really is and i loved the i mean the quality of the performance but also just these like subtle beats that show us when characters are kind of like great gatsby you know boats born back ceaselessly into the past like the the current just pushes them into their old tendencies and when we actually say that raniera and damon are careless like tom and daisy it's smashing i would um and when do we actually throw in the green light what happening it might be wow Fitzgerald like the bard welcome here on a house of our episode dragon egg it's all the same thing kind of um you know I mentioned earlier like Renice having to explain to Damon and at the beginning of season two what it would be like for a mother to grieve in this way and he was like the queen is shirking her duties it's the opposite here you know one of the things Massaria questions is like are you questioning Rhaenyra and he's like no actually I'm questioning you I'm questioning them little things like that he's like but I've seen the light it's like I still have notes I had a vision I had a vision and there was a blonde chick with dragons at her at her breast I'd love to tell you about it don't ask what else I dream of don't ask what else I see um he's like I've seen season one of Game of Thrones sensation everyone's gonna love it you're gonna love it oh my god season one really good he'd be right he was right she when when Massaria was like briefly his prisoner she she recalls here at the beginning of season two oh yeah they fucked and also he imprisoned her that was tough that was tough not everything's about you Damon not everything's about you Damon the Jacob Ben what about you what about you what about you oh it's tough what hurts more that or the that's a lost reference I don't think about you at all they're both so fucking brutal um but Damon was like I think what about oh yeah this is sorry to keep talking about Thrones Twitter but it's really like doing it for me um someone pointed out that Rhaenyra has not like seen I think seen or mentioned Kristen Cole since the whole oranges and cinnamon conversation that can't quite be true but like since since like for for a while yeah whereas he is where he's just caught like that spider that fucking bitch Rhaenyra she's just like who I've moved on Kristen huh no so he's Cyril and she's Cassian who are you he's Ginsberg and she's Don Draper I don't think about you at all it's so good put those two in an elevator stat um Massaria is truthful when she says because Damon's like do you trust the queen's judgment right and she's like I wouldn't be here if I didn't and I think we did see enough in season two to understand that Massaria chose to stand by Rhaenyra like for a valid reason that you are steadfast right and like what would Rhaenyra do for for the well they're both progressives you know yeah I think they would vote down ballot together right Rhaenyra like yeah any feedback on the platform Massaria is like get those kids out of the fighting pits right and Rhaenyra I think would be like yeah yeah Otto's like I'll get to it Rhaenyra's like yeah yeah let's do it Damon's like you put Egon on the throne and she's like nope but then we go back to the infamous season one penultimate episode and she said to Otto remember she's a little pissy at that at that one she had some vengeance to exact but listen jealousy though two episodes in a row turning Satan to the sea sure I don't is that the lyric keep going uh Massaria's jealousy something to track something to watch something to think about but it is time for a more intimate exchange between just Damon and Rhaenyra because someone has to tell Rhaenyra that Vhagar has left King's Landing at last and Damon's like I'm up I'll do it goes in Rhaenyra's in pajamas in bed jim jams just such a deeply relatable human moment loved it and the first exchange here is if it were you yeah yeah what else would be there is like a hot water bottle is it some tea um am I in bed or on the couch you're in bed in your jim jams just probably a water a water yeah water some a bottle of water uh probably a book okay uh that's a fair way it's down that's a very like austere sort of like yeah bring me my bottle of water I'm like give me my hot chocolate on the couch under the blanket of 12 different pillows beverages are plenty but in bed really just water okay yeah okay oh that's oh okay I understand yeah I don't like spill yeah I understand I understand what's happening now yeah I I fail to consider your whole like nothing unclean shall ever touch my sheets well some unclean things can touch my sheets if I'm lucky okay so he defied me that is what sons do sometimes they also fuck their moms in their their dreams but again don't bring it up don't ask about it uh the fact that in this portrait of just unrelenting grief and despair we also get the anger right he defied me that these things are now entwined with each other kind of undeniably and I was struck on the like hubris front as we've talked about for many characters including these the way that they talked about sheep stealer you know uh you know you know you know you know you know Raniera's like go go find this dragon and this rider and Damon says it shall be done so that's interesting given the book to show swap of nettles to Raina like and that is Damon's daughter that'll be interesting to watch what happens there but just the like it's impossible it's impossible I knew you were gonna do that and then I know you know I can't help it so I'm like why not just do it the um you talk about it with thrones but it happens with star wars too can't help it um like anyone would have described the sewing as impossible before it happened but it did so this it's impossible that someone could claim a wild dragon how could the greens have claimed a dragon now it's not actually a team green dragon they don't know that but it's more like broadly the fact that they're like how could anybody but us have found a way to change the dragon math that feels to me very notable if you're Raina yeah how do you feel like no one's even considering you as an option I know and like who possibly could have done that is tough certainly not our 20 something year old daughter uh who's who's got plenty of targ blood raging through her veins would it be worth it for them to know it was you just for that one moment of like was not familiar with your game good job Raina now we have an issue is she gonna get one of those I don't know great job Raina I don't know good job good effort maybe a good job good effort yeah that's a that's a sports meme okay uh this is the the quote you mentioned earlier Joe the boys who clung to me who hid their little faces in my skirts dead so that I may sit upon a throne of swords of course a throne made of swords makes me think of the barrack john season seven exchange beyond the wall we have to know what we're fighting for I'm not fighting so some man or woman I barely know can sit on the throne made of swords so what are you fighting for life death is the enemy the first enemy and the last and as Rhaenyra and everyone considers the cost the toll what is worth it demon godfather god godfather three memes her yeah just when I thought I was out you pulled me back in switches to high valerian and whispers the prophecy I've always said bitch perfect oh my I hope I hope people the audio listeners only were like oh my god oh my god the prophecy and the switch to high valerian to remind them who they are their bubble their bubble their cocoon their history but also just like their inheritance this thing now that they have to do and it's interesting because on the one hand it's like a reminder that there is more at stake not just than their family which is a fucked up way to think about it but a way you could think about it if you're making these choices right even just this war you know there's the like the various like the realm someone must idea of like who is doing this for the pure thing and then who has this kind of other context or reason they're bringing to it okay there's more at stake the darkness from the north we have to figure out a way to preserve life yeah but how do we make sure that season one of game of thrones happens exactly it's it's it's a paradox it's a must it's already happened and so we got to make sure it happens yeah it's true as we like to talk about with Rhaenyra when does that shift from okay when I was young I wanted to eat cake then I became the heir and I learned about this thing now I have fuck these guys you know Rickard laughing and his men laughing when she pulls the sword egg on all of the people who bent the knee to him instead there's the need for vengeance and the fact that Rhaenyra knows that she was actually Viserys's chosen heir but there's also the fact that she is the inheritor of the prophecy and she carries the prophecy and then there's the when does Rhaenyra get drunk on prophecy fear and this like red sewing stretch of like I've been chosen like Celtigar just like really undermining slap me in the face really undermining our queen here as you know I'm team black team Rhaenyra felt really grateful to see Rhaenyra on the throne and I'm pretty concerned I'm pretty concerned because I think that when Rhaenyra justifies these actions her face just being sopping wet with tears is not an auspicious beginning to you know I think that um the soles of her feet being painted red like lupiton red with blood I think it's fair to say that your march up to the throne being shown to us in the of a pool of blood of your father's former hand and your best friend's dad it's it's worrying it's a harbinger it's an omen so yeah you know what do you justify and what do you think is an acceptable choice to make if it's all for the sake of prophecy that is just the through line of this entire show and yet it's time to fly to king's landing I like hearing the to king's landing on the morrow to the gallant on the morrow to king's landing on the morrow queen's landing we should say um I liked this description from uh the cinematographer on this was on house the dragons built I think about Like, the shift from through the smoke and the wreckage, the darkness, into the brightness, the lightness of King's Landing. That was really interesting. And, you know, there's this thing, it's like, you have these ominous, you have that, okay, the light, but then you have, like, the cut from, the sequence was, like, Orweil saying to Alicent, I don't know what you have done, Your Grace, but I fear something desperate. And then we cut to Rhaenyra's face in darkness and in shadow as the score is, like, done, done, done. It's like, that's kind of worrying, right? And this is a passage we didn't share last week from Fire and Blood, but it's an iconic one. Broke up by the loss of one son, Rhaenyra Targaryen seemed to find new strength after the loss of a second. Jace's death hardened her, burning away her fears, leaving only her anger and her hatred. Still possessed of more dragons than her half-brother, her grace now resolved to use them no matter the cost. She would rain down fire and death upon Aegon and all those who supported him, she told the Black Council, and either tear him from the Iron Throne or die in the attempt. Riding leathers? Yep. Jace's sword on her? Jace's sword. On her side? Yeah. Anything you want to say about that? Because we'll talk about the Dark Sister symbolism and significance, but there are more than one sword choice here that carries. Her carrying Jace's sword is, like, it's so beautiful. And, you know, her strapping on a sword in the first place is something that she talked about a lot in Season 2, of course. So she has a sword. It's her dead son's sword, though. And that is just, like, again, what was the cost to get her here to this place? The Trail of Blood everywhere. The Path of Blood. The. She's walking in a pool of Otto's blood, but it's also Jace's blood and Luke's blood. Yes. You know what I mean? On the way up to the throne. When the adult cast is introduced into the show, Season 1, Episode 6, and Alicent summons Rhaenyra after Childbirth to the. Trail of Blood. Trail of Blood. It's Trail of Blood, Trail of Blood, Trail of Blood. It's Long Walk, it's Long Walk, it's Long Walk. It's Baptism by Blood, Baptism by Blood, Baptism by Blood. I was thinking of our guy, Viserys. Me too. I mean, because of the halting, slow nature of how Rhaenyra marches up to the throne in particular, it was so hard not to think of Viserys. It was really, really good. It was helpful, I thought, that Mysaria gave Rhaenyra the crown. Because that is an important symbol. Though, like, the reminder that she actually was Viserys' chosen heir, you know? That this is her rightful inheritance and that it was stolen from her. Helpful. So appreciated that. And the crown's just out there in the wilderness. I know. Yeah. Did they grab it? Did they grab that back? Was that in the satchel, you think, that Lyras took? The crown in there? I hope so. Yeah. Hopefully. That would be a tough one to leave behind. I would have taken another minute to grab that. He's like, I have enough gold in all this. Also, I bothered to get the ruby-encrusted crown. Oh, man. Taking the red key. Jo, any feedback from anybody as far as you have confronted in the world about the battle tactics here? Have you seen anything? Has anyone mentioned anything? A few people have noted that it was, perhaps, speaking of the hubris of Targaryens, hubristic of Daemon and Rhaenyra to just the two of them. Romantic, but hubristic. Date night? Yeah. You and me? Storm of the Castle? This is what our listener, and I believe you pronounce it, Niamh, is how you pronounce his name. I believe it is a very fun Irish name. When calculating, this is a comment left on the top of the thrones. Thank you so much. When calculating whether it is a good strategy to go into a castle with only your spouse, two swords, and conquest on the mind, one must consider how cool the two of you will look doing it if you succeed. Are you wearing matching black leather outfits? Do you have matching supernaturally colored hair because you're also related? Is one of you very, very good at fighting? Is the other one radiating a palpable force field of rage and grief? Are you both very, very good looking? Strategy considerations. Makes sense to me. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. All the way down the row. This is so funny. I mean, it's very dumb. It's very dumb that Rhaenyra and Daemon just, like, the two of them walk in. Is it fun? They brought air support, but no ground support. And the air supporter asked to just, like, hang back. Yeah. How would they know? I don't know if they're needed. I know. They're really just there in case another dragon shows up. I guess so. Because we're dreamy. Dream. Dream time. Did you, was there any particular glimpse of, first of all, did you have any of the bells PTSD? Always. Seeing dragons over King's Landing. It's all it takes. Any of the- So it was, like, all this for Bran to wind up on the throne. Oh, my God. Any looks from the small folk below that struck you as particularly notable? We've got Ulf's pub pals. We've got Hugh's wife. Hugh's wife, Sylvie. Who was like, remember, it's the small folk like me. Remember, Aemon loves a mommy. Hugh's wife. Well, I was actually really struck by Hugh's wife because, so she's on her way out of there, right? Like, that's her whole vibe is, like, I'm going to Templeton. Yeah. I'll be safe there. Don't worry about it. Does she know that that's her husband up on a dragon? I was wondering that, too. I don't know that she knows that her husband has a dragon. I feel like it's- I would let Hugh send a raven if I were Rhaenyra, you know? I mean- I mean, it seems like- Tell your loved ones you have a dragon. He must have. Right? Right? Well, let's say he didn't. I don't know why he wouldn't. You know, my dearest wife. Like, while he's camping, right? What if from above he had just been like, yo! What's up, babe? Remember our dead daughter? I got a dragon now. It's sick. Sorry I couldn't find enough chicken for the soup, the blockade, but- But I got a dragon now. That was very interesting to me. Does she know? That he has a dragon? Follow-up question. Do viewers who have not done a complete rewatch know that that's his wife? Or that those are Ulf's pup pals? Or that that's Aemon's preferred brothel worker? And will they know, midway through season four, who Tylan Lannister is? I don't know. These are the questions for the time. Oh, my God. The Hightower soldiers in the courtyard. Yeah. They're like, all right, sword's down. Damon says the real test is going to be in the inside. And Claire Kilner's like, bet, because I'm going to do a kill bill. Not here with the overhead shot. She's like, you know what I did? King Kong and Tarantino, motherfuckers. Incredible. Really, really great. And Andy Greenwald didn't like it. Actually, I don't know how Andy feels about Tarantino, but, you know. Oh, interesting. Something to think about. What's your favorite Tarantino movie? Inglourious Bastards? That's mine. I just saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood at the Arrow for the 70mm Festival. How was it? So funny, because there were just like a bunch of bros there in their like Cliff Booth Hawaiian shirts. Amazing. I was like, wow, you got your Cliff Booth cosplay? That dude killed his wife. Anyway. I saw that in the theater, but never in 70mm. It's hard to pick. Yeah. Difficult. Really difficult. But it might just be Pulp Fiction. It might just be that. Completely respectable choice. Hard target. But Kill Bill, the Kill Bill duology is incredible. And yeah, Inglourious Bastards rules and Jackie Brown rules. True. And, you know, Reservoir Dogs rules. I love Tarantino. Me too. Give me that blood. But yeah, she's like, we're going to do an overhead shot. She did a bunch of overhead shots. But she's like, this is specifically invoking, you know, the scene with the bride and the wheel and Go-Go and like all of that. So, yeah, it's really fun. Fantastic stuff. Then they make their way. They cut through some more soldiers and make their way to the throne room. And Damon throws open the doors. And then we in Rhaenyra just get to enjoy a really satisfying moment where he turns and says, Your Grace? Like, it's for you. Not the hateful eight. Okay. Sorry. That movie was a disappointment. Was there a moment of all the moments with Damon in this throne that was most top of mind for you in this entire sequence of watching him support Rhaenyra rising to take it? Was it? I was thinking about Vaemon Velaryon, really. Well, I mean, he did cut his head off in that throne room in front of that throne. And so that is, folks, our sixth mention of Vaemon today. They said it couldn't be done. And yet here we are. So, um, Damon's sitting on that throne as Rhaenyra entered the room in season one. The Harrenhal dreams of cutting Rhaenyra down from that throne. The vision of seeing Rhaenyra on that throne. So are we meant to believe that, like, Damon is, you know, true to his word? That his dream drug trip, White Lotus Day at Harrenhal, has converted him? And he is just, like, sincerely supporting Rhaenyra now? I think so. I think so. You have to do it. You have to be the one to cut off the head because they won't respect you otherwise. Yeah. Kind of don't anyway. But, like, this will only make it worse. This is the moment you become queen. Yeah. Like, interesting to see that. Ride or die. Yeah. And, you know, we were always, like, in the very beginning when Damon was doing all of these things, you know? And Viserys is sitting on that very throne when he has to cast Damon out of the city. Time and time again, if we're being honest about it. You know, we were always like, does Damon really want that for himself actually in the show? And he certainly went through a period of saying he thought he did. Even then. We had moments that are some of our favorite in the run of the show to date. Picking up the crown and putting it on his brother's head. He could have knocked him over and taken the seat for himself right there, but he didn't. I'm gonna cry. He didn't, Jo. And so this felt so connected to that moment in particular for me in a way that felt so rich and rewarding for these characters. And they're very complicated. They're very complicated history with each other. I just loved that. Loved it. Didn't love Rickard. Laughing at, uh, you know, I don't know how much we want to get into this out of the book spoiler section. I think this is fine to say, like, Rickard's, Sir Rickard's plot is just completely different in the show because a character who he was supposed to basically be, like, off with just isn't in the show. Butterflies, baby. Butterflies. So this is a less glorious and charitable outcome for this character. That was interesting. The actor who plays the record, like, really upvoted. george's blog post he's like yeah butterflies um the laughter though it is definitely like it's a validation right every fear every fear that raniera has had of like what do they think of a woman pulls that sword the one that she has spent episode after episode saying was never in my hand and they fucking laugh in her face so she's she does have to cut off otto's head and undeniably she has to cut off and eventually and then she does eventually she she does and she will luther they come in you know it feels better than seeing the gold cloaks uh fuck over ned stark this time they sided with our beloved characters that's exciting luther looked great doing it and then raniera says bring egg on the usurper so to me are you not like shriveling inside you're like raniera he's not there oh my god don't say it so loud i know it's uh it's tough now damon's like in a pretty good mood about it you know he's like we could just sub in this guy right sub in this guy thrilled uh what do you think of the laris contingency plan reveal i love this yeah tell me why because laris is my favorite character yeah so anytime we can mention him great i love that laris did this this is great i mean we didn't know where otto was we talked to chris about this and talked to thrones we did not know where otto was at the end of but basically otto left to go back to old town and laris was just like yoink yeah throw him in the deepest darkest you know depths uh the bowels of the do you know who wrote that episode bowels of the pleasure den episode season one episode four can't remember ira parker oh shit ira you rule yeah oh my god wow so in the bowels of the black cells we find uh hot or high tower um i i love that laris did this me too laris is just ready whatever he needs to do and we saw this when he and agon were captured in the last episode he's just like oh yeah that's the king yeah whatever is going to get laris to stay alive and survive until the next play right he will do it right and it's interesting to pair those moments across these and reveals across these episodes because it's like when we talk about trust and loyalty can you ever really have it with a character like laris like is the only side he's really on his own or does he have an allegiance but he's ready for it depends how much he likes your feet you know if you let him crank it and you flash a little toe he stays loyal for at least a minute i mean that's that's like one of the great rewarding parts about the laris auto thing here too because like you know i was thinking back to how you know he we associated very intimately alicent and laris but then when when laris had that stretch with auto where he was like no reason i can't do this for you just to get close enough to be able to snatch him or was he sincere but then it ended up making more sense to do this other thing like all of a sudden he's like i'm gonna do this for you all of it is in play with him all the time when auto said i'm peacing out to to head back to to my home and my family that was season two episode two season two episodes in a minute we got a flash of him in the finale but that was a long fucking time ago i thought damon's laugh his laugh of glee well you knew it was auto though as soon as the shadowy figure emerges and is like uh my prince again a gift if you ever return from lord laris strong it's like it's got this has to be auto here we go but it is confirmed before we see auto by damon's cackle of jubilation that can only calm yeah from seeing his two out of five stars spies rotting away festering in the black cells very very very satisfying what did she make of what transpired not just between damon and auto but when damon brings auto in between auto and ronira i just thought it was so good because like this is so complicated for ronira because of course like auto is the architect of the conspiracy against her like he absolutely is but also like you know she was raised with him as like yeah this figure in her household you know what i mean and and before she was a a threat to him in one way or another as he so decided like he was like almost like an uncle-like figure to her as her best friend's father this is her her father's closest cousin and she's like oh my god so it's just like extremely complicated i think it would be hard for ronira to behead almost anyone but like this is just really hard this like figure of authority for you growing up and all these other things yeah i just want to say uh when i made fun of the way that ronira like did not take his head cleanly off and some people were like i'd like to see you do better obviously i would be way worse at this obviously i would like hit him in the like knee and the ankle i do love that ronira like closes her eyes like you know it was all like very good uh clean clean break on the second hit like you know the valerian steel doing his job valerian steel very sharp that's great yeah we mentioned on talk thrones we mentioned the ungray joy yes um and our beloved roderick you know um that was even more of a of a hatchet job oh way worse plus it was raining you know but like if you if you want you know from the very beginning ned stark saying he who passes sins must swing the sword and using ice to behead um you know this poor guy who saw a zombie um you know we've been tracking this ever since whether it's theon and and the hatchet job he does there whether it's rob with a car stark whether it's daenerys having other people do the work for her uh in essos you know it's just sort of like who's who's uh passing eventually daenerys is like i can just roast him with my dragon yes and that at least was like her doing the work but it's just sort of like what kind of leader are you can you pass a sentence and swing the sword can you do it cleanly theon just like theon this boy who took winterfell and was just weighing over his head from the beginning hacking away at this guy who helped raise him yeah much like otto helped raise raniera and to a certain degree a way less degree um helped raise her by ratting out to her dad that she was trying to fuck her uncle in the bells of a pleasure and by hopefully suggesting that he could betroth raniera to her at that point infant f brother he was he always tried to do his part keep it in the family why not oh fucking otto so satisfying to see this guy's head get cut off though i will miss so yeah uh it's it's a grand thrones tradition i love that they did this here this is very different than what happened i mean otto dies here otto's still the first to be beheaded yeah but this is very different than what happens when raniera takes the throne in the book it's there's a we'll talk about in the spoiler section but there's the thing that happens when she takes the throne that we've been talking about in the spoiler section since the beginning yeah it i maybe they'll do it later but they haven't done it here and i love this way more i think her walking through a puddle of blood that she had to have an active hand in creating it's a really good and those bloody steps up to the throne i think it's an incredible adaptive choice yeah really really smart i i i loved everything about this i think that the fact that raniera did this is a really good choice i think it's a really good choice i think it's a doesn't want to do this and that like i don't want i don't want it to have to inflict directly that violence even on someone who deserves it and who you are willing to offer she wouldn't have any problem with dame and killing otto just but i think your point is is important about just the again the history between the characters it's not a stranger the fact that jasper jasper would have been way easier for her no question you know like the fact that like also shout out orwell i through this with a plum a horse um you know it's all of the the the man who passes a sentence she's doing the sword stuff and it's also like oh and you're a woman and they're all wondering if you're going to be able to do it if you're going to have the constitution and fortitude so evil and when you when you see when you see when we saw these steps in the trailer we both knew it was raniera walking through it and she's like oh my god she's like oh my god she's like oh through a puddle of blood to the throne but we weren't sure whose blood it was but we were like and and i didn't want to spoil that was raniera taking the throne and you were just sort of like it looks like a womanly gate yeah it did but i like how well we've seen raniera stride confidently yeah you know so it's not just like a womanly gate like there's just sort of this like tiptoe like uncertainty of this moment and i just love that i love that raniera does not stride with confidence up to the throne that she just has to do this horrible thing that she's crying that she's like mewling and i support that like her just being like i can't i can't do it same i'm not i'm not disparaging her like no one should be horrified you should feel broken you know all of these things you know and then just like you know wavering her way up to the throne yeah just feeling all of the feelings that she's feeling about it and then allison walks in and her just having to like sort of steal herself just be like oh no and now allison has to see that i did this and also allison didn't even get away that was sort of like part of the whole point of this whole thing was that i wasn't i didn't i wasn't supposed to have to then deal with the consequences of allison being here because she's supposed to be gone yeah allison wasn't have to wasn't supposed to have to look at the the toll of it and raniera wasn't supposed to have to see that and now like i was i'm supposed to take heads am i supposed to take allison's head i don't i don't want to like i never wanted to yeah and so like all of this like uh-oh what now is there and then she just sort of like squares her shoulders and like in like microaggressions microaggressions micro um facial expressions my expressions what i meant uh like her face just morphs into something thing else. And I just think she's incredible. Carlos, can we see it? It's genuine spine-tingling chills. Just amazing work from both of them. Microaggressions on me and my emotions. Exactly. The control you need to take, the mastering of yourself. Yeah, slight raise of chin. Slight raise of chin. Really good. I love you calling out that we've seen these different postures and modes from Raniro before. Because the thing that flashes into my mind hearing that is in the hunt. That confident march back into camp and everybody else is like, whoa, right? And that this should feel like an impossible. Impossible thing to navigate. And also just the relief. It's all of it, right? Right. All of these things mixed together. And yeah, Viserys, you know, I think on our minds most of all with that, you know, 27-minute long walk to the throne. Excellent. Love it. You know who else should be there? Jace should be there. I know. Like, if Jace were still around, Jace and Damon would have been on her side. Like, who is there and not there to observe this moment? Actually, like, that was on my mind, too, in auto. Just a little quick look that transpires between Otto and Raniro here. Thinking of how when Viserys did show up in Episode VIII and Season I, how Otto had to remember kind of, like, bow out of the way. Because Viserys had come to support and choose Raniro. That was so great. Oh, man. And yeah, like, I liked on the Roderick-Theon front, the way that, like, Roderick's words send Theon into this, like, complete state of, like, debilitating doubt and shame and insecurity. And he has to compensate for that with this, like, show. The way that. I love you, Theon Greyjoy. Now you are truly lost. You're truly lost. If your father could see this. Yeah. Otto's version of that, my final words will be meant to damn you. Yeah. The way that Raniro responded to that, like, I'm actually not going to let you talk anymore. I'm going to hit you in the spine. Let me say this. Two strokes, it's pretty impressive, actually, for the first time. I agree. It's pretty impressive. I don't disagree. You know, I have Dark Sister at home. Maybe I'll try it. What, like, melons should I use? Not on an actual person, obviously. Adam? I promise. You'll be spared. What, like, a watermelon? I was like, the mailman? Who were you attacking? What would that. Maybe, like, a cantaloupe? Do you think you could hit it at the exact angle that Vaemon Valarian lost? Like a baguette? He has seven mentions! Holy fuck! Oh, most powerful and magical numbers, so we won't get to eight today, I don't think. That's it. It's a book spoiler section time, and I don't need to talk about Vaemon there. The Jace. Spoiler, he's dead. He's dead. Head cut right off above the tongue. The Jace sword, not being the one that she uses, but Visenya's sword. Dark sister. Sharper, because it's Valerian's sword, so Daemon's like, let me help you out. But the symbolism of one of the ancestral swords of House Targaryen in this moment of becoming queen, but also just the fact that Visenya was, you know, we think of, like, Arya, a heroine of yours, Tywin's saying of Visenya, a heroine of Rhaenyra's, too. A warrior, sister-wife-queen, who Rhaenyra has studied. People looked at Visenya in a way they didn't look at Rhaenyra. It also feels quite intimate to, like, hand your Valyrian steel sword to someone. I agree. Use my sword. Use it, why don't you? I'm sure everything will be fine for these characters, and that they will live happily ever after. Well, the war's over. The war's done. That's a wrap. Rhaenyra's on the throne. The rest of the episodes are just, honestly, it's just looking for Thailand. Yeah. From here. Dream fire. Time! Book spoilers? Let's do it. Okay, if you don't want to hear this, go! The Horn of Helmhammerhand. Um, alright. Um, can I hit you with an email we got from a listener? Yeah, of course. Dean, our listener Dean wrote this in sort of regards to Alice Rivers' The Lorax. Alice is in a perfect position to heal Aemon just enough to kill Daemon, two dragons, and then himself. Yeah. Take two major dragons and, like, the two most fearsome warriors on each side off the board. Yeah. She did that. I choose to believe. Um, this passage from Fire and Blood has always been epic, but thinking of it now with what we're seeing in the show, who told you where to find me? This is what Daemon says, Daemon. My lady. My lady. She saw you in a storm cloud. Not the dragon. In a mountain pool at dusk in the fire, we lit to cook our suppers. She sees much and more. My Alice. Oh, mommy! I mean, do you think there's any chance that there will actually be something, like, genuine and authentic between these two crazy kids, Aemon, One-Eye, and Alice? Or just she's like, okay, Daemon's not going to give me what I want, but I can get it through you? Maybe. Put a baby in me? Yeah. On the Harrenhal front, you know, this witch queen of Harrenhal future for Alice, like, that is a thing that happens in the book. I guess the question is, like. For how long? Yeah. She'll take it, but she will not keep it long. Well, and do they have to, like, move that up, maybe? Because, like, there's a lot. That's, like, Regency timeline stuff? Yeah. Like, will we. Because now you know that we're not doing the Regency. No, I've not. I've not accepted that, actually. I mean, I think. I do think Rhaenyra makes it to the very end of the show, like, finale. I think the penultimate or finale, you're right. But I think they still have to give us something beyond that. I do think Rhaenyra. Like, let's say Rhaenyra dies top of the finale. Yeah. Yeah. We do, of course, need to see Aegon die. Have to. And it has to be clear that Team Black, like, wins. That's it. That's it. That's it. Yes. Yes. Yes. But then. But I don't need. I don't know that Kreegan Stark needs to be there. Why bring. I mean, because. Why bring Black Alley in if they're not going to hit you up? Like, do you think Kreegan Stark's going to show up and people are going to be like, remember? Bamba season two, episode one? That's Kreegan Stark. You know? Yeah. And they all have been primed to remember him because they will have just been introduced at the beginning of the finale to Tylan Lannister again. What if the end of season four is just, do you remember these characters? You haven't seen them in four years. The previously on is just, like, 20 minutes long. You guys thought the six and a half minute previously on at the beginning of the season three was a doozy? Look out. One of the things that I'm curious about is, like, because Aemond, you know, is stabbed in incapacity. Is he devastated here? I presume that that, I don't know, was that, like, a kidney wound? Like, I assume he's going to be out of commish for a bit here, but hopefully not too long. You know, when will we get the, like. Vhagar raises the countryside? That, and even just him learning about King's Landing and feeling like such an idiot? Like, all of that. Is he just, like, going to be in the sickbed? I don't know. Is he going to be having fun dreams? Is he going to, we talked about this before, but is Alice going to present as Alicent to him, you know, sort of thing? Where are you on that? You think it's going to happen? I would love it. That would be good. Olivia Cooke would hate it. Yeah. It would be really funny. Vhagar sort of, like, taking out her temper on the countryside, like, that's very anti-whatever it is that Alice Rivers wants, so. That's true. You know? It doesn't seem like she would support that. She would just say, let's stay in bed and fuck, and I'll give you some mother's milk. How about you don't burn a bunch of trees, and also, I guess, the people? Yeah. Yeah. And here's some breast milk. Suckle up my teeth. I'll tide you over instead. Rhaenyra. Okay. Let's talk about the throne cuts that didn't happen. I love this. This is just so interesting. Okay. Here's the passage. As her lord husband, Prince Daemon, escorted her from the hall, cuts were seen upon her grace's legs, and the palm of her left hand wrote, Eustace, drops of blood fell to the floor. I know. Fucking Eustace. Drops of blood fell to the floor as she went past, and wise men looked at one another, though none dared speak the truth aloud. The Iron Throne had spurned her, and her days upon it. It would be few. That is one of the all-time, like, hammer notes in Fire and Blood. This is such an interesting, when we think about the adaptation. So your question is, like, will it happen later this season? Will the throne cut her later this season? People will be like, ooh. Because if it doesn't happen, why do it with Viserys? It's kind of dumb-dumb. Like, think about how you convey this in TV storytelling. Like, let's say the throne had cut her. Like, let's say she didn't walk the pool of blood. Otto's pool of blood is over here. Yeah. She takes a clean walk up to the throne. It cuts her. She walks out, and some blood's dripping. And people are like, peas and carrots, peas and carrots. Like, did you know that this means supernaturally that the throne has rejected her, and she will not keep it long? Like, we don't have that lore. They could have that conversation later when she had to put her rotting fingers in a bowl of maggots like Viserys did. Okay, okay. So which characters are saying it? I mean, I think it would be hard to convey, but it does make me— Lord and Lady Random Hoosie, what's it? I know. Like, I don't know. Why did we do it all with Viserys, then? Because that all felt like such a— I think they thought they were going to— I think they thought they were going to do it. And then they were like, this is better. What is so—what I think is delicious to consider— Yeah. I think you're right to flag that it would be hard to convey that, like, aspect of it. I don't know. Someone could be like, Maegor! They found him with the blade of the throne through his neck! You know Maegor! Good old Maegor! That's why, you know, Maegor's tits! They could do it that way. I don't know. Would that be good? Maybe not. Should you get into TV right now? I'm available. I'm actually not. Maybe I can be. She's very busy. The idea that the histories were written by these fucking men presented Rhaenyra as unworthy from the jump. Oh, sure. Yeah. Feels right. If Keltigar were in that room, he'd be like. Did you guys see that blood? Did you see what happened? Not that she walked through a pool of blood to get there, but I believe the throne cut her and that's why she's bleeding. God. Listen to me. Don't listen to your eyes. Incredible. Question about the cat spa. Tell me. Where do you think it goes from here? Because for a second I was like, does it get lost in the, like, does it wind up with other Targaryens going forward? Yeah. Or, you know, because Aemond has it and he's not leaving Harrenhal. Right. So, because if you're listening to this and you don't know, he dies at the God's Eye. Because Helena, remember, said so. Yeah. She did. Yeah. A promise is a promise. So, like, I kind of liked the idea that it, like, goes down to the bottom of the God's Eye, but, like, and then finds its way back. Or, you know, it gets passed down, down, down, and then Robert has it and then Baelish steals it from Robert or, like, whatever. But, like, I kind of like it. Like, the dagger of prophecy getting lost in the God's Eye is, like, a really cool. Or, like, oops, he drops it over the Isle of Faces or, like, something like that. You know, like, that would be pretty cool. Could a green man just, like, courier it to someone after that? Or Alice just has it and she just has. Alice having it would be fun. Alice has the dagger of prophecy. She's using it to cut up, like, where would goo in the kitchen? Yeah. Love it. Use it to stir the cauldron. She grinds in her mortal and pestle with the handle. I'm into it. It's interesting in general to think of a few chain of custody questions because there's that. And then there's just, like, who else is Rhaenyra going to share the prophecy with? Yeah. You know, she told Jace. He did? He's dead. Is she going to tell Joffrey, little Joffrey? Well, we're in the book spoiler section, so if she does, it's not going to fucking matter because he's going to die, too. Do you think they're bringing Joffrey back or are they just, like, don't worry about it? I think, oh, my God. They have to. I don't know what they're doing with these children. Joffrey. On the dragon hubris, do they understand the actual magic of these beasts? Like, little Joffrey trying to fly his mother's dragon and then dying is one of my, like, it sounds weird to say favorite moments, but it is. You love it when small children die. It's a rich text. But, yeah, like, you know, in a desperate moment of trying to bridge these divides, like, would Rhaenyra tell Alicent? Would she tell Aegon? Like. Or does it die inside of the story? I could really see her tell Alicent. I could see her telling Mysaria. I could see her telling, you know, those are the people, really. Aegon, I don't think so. But we'll see. She's like, your dragon's eating me, but wait. Oh, I'm dreaming. I have no idea. The people who hang around this long are ready for anything. On the Helaena front. Oh, yeah. Okay, here's what I want to say about this. Tell me. I usually get so annoyed when I'm watching a TV show and I know that they're, like, trying to build up my affection for a character right before they kill them. Yeah. But they've just been doing this with Helaena so long. Like, I've just been, like, into Helaena for so long. And they've, I think, ratcheted her up in the last couple episodes of just sort of, like, what a reprieve from the horror of all of this is just sort of, like, we are all rooting for Helaena. Every single person. Yeah. All the bugs in the garden. Are rooting for Helaena. Tragedy awaits. The chickens deserve to have Helaena. I used to have chickens. I did in Oakland. We had chickens. Incredible. It's great. Did you have, like, fresh eggs? Yeah. Did you have a rooster? I guess you need one. No, we didn't have a rooster. We had four. Playing hens. Anyway. What was I saying for chickens? Okay. We're all rooting for Helaena. And then Helaena's going to skydive out the window. And that's going to be. That's going to be really tough. And I think it's happening this season. Because. Yeah. I forget who said it. Olivia Cooke? Yeah. Like, what advice would you give? And she was like, lock your windows. Sheesh. Good job, Olivia. Anyway. I think Helaena's going out the window this season. And that's so sad. That is really a bummer. Do you think there is any chance, and I don't like asking this question, that Masaria is going to be involved with that? Because there is a one of detail. Nobody knows what happens with Helaena's death in Fire and Blood. Did she follow a butterfly out the window? Did she go, dream fire? Dream fire. Oh, if you have a butterfly. That's horrible. I think she's speared, right? Like, so. Not that way. Oh, my God. The guys in the controller are like, make it in. Oh, God. Christ. One of the accounts. Yeah. Connects the idea of Masaria telling Helaena about Mailer, who is not currently in this show, we must acknowledge, about his death. And that that, like, despair and grief drives Helaena to suicide. That's one of the, like, presented accounts. So Masaria has a connection to a piece of book. Yeah. Do you think that, like, on the, because there seemed to be, it's stoking this. Masaria, Rhaenyra, Alicent. Jealousy? Like, Masaria trying to hurt. Masaria, Rhaenyra, Alicent, Daemon. Yeah. Could, is there any path? I don't want this to happen, but is there any path to Masaria? I wouldn't put anything past Masaria, personally. Would she kill Helaena? She could. To hurt Alicent? She could. And have Alicent blame it on Rhaenyra? Oh. To put a wedge between them? It feels like in play. Maybe, but, like, I actually think at this point, nothing is driving a wedge between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Famous last words, perhaps. But, like. So much has happened, and the show is like, guess what? They're still besties. Ride or die. Yeah. Ride or die. Can I talk to you about the thing I'm most excited to talk to you about in this spoiler section? Yeah. Alan and Bela. Yeah. More incest. Jace's body, not yet, cold because of the ocean waters, but not really, like, metaphorically cold, right? Yeah. Barely dead. Yeah. Alan does a little, like, like, waver lean into Bela. He's just, like, he's. The vibes are palpable. He's interested. Yeah. He is interested. They are related. And they will marry. Yes. Incest! But I was just like, this is fast. It did seem quick. Jace is dead. That actually struck me. I mean, that seemed like that's why that scene is there. For sure. For sure. That struck me as, um. Why Bela doesn't get to, like, go to King's Landing for the, uh, conquering, because she's too busy laying track for her husband, who's also her uncle. That does feel like they're like, oh, we don't have this, like, that many episodes left. Like, we got a lot to do and actually not that many episodes. Correct. So we've got to. Yeah. Establish some vibes. What are you most looking forward to seeing on the tapestry, uh, in weeks to come? Hmm. I hope Otto's head is there from this episode. Butcher's ball. Oh, butcher's ball. Well, and this, so this is like on the fish feed front. If we lose fish feed with barely any, I mean, Damon, they have inserted Damon, so he's a character we care about, but to really give us a full Roddy, Kristen, now Gawain, who didn't. Yeah. Isn't it the gold cloaks? So it's Gawain and Kristen and their troops, and then Roddy and. Yeah. Oscar and Allie. Yeah. And is that going to be it? Is it going to, is it going to be Roddy who's going to be like. I think so, because we don't have some of the other characters. Yeah. In the mix who need to be here. So Roddy feels like he'll get the Kristen kill shot, I think. That seems likely based on where we are right now. It's not as satisfying as like, can we get Damon back there? Oh. Get Damon on Caraxes back there to kill Kristen Cole. I mean, that would be fun. That would be really fun. They're mates. As Kristen noted, they have dragons. They can move around with a quickness, you know. And then we'll have to have a split at some point where Roddy goes to Tumbleton and Oscar has to keep going to King's Landing. Yeah. Like the lads, even though not all the lads are here, have to get back. A divided fist. I guess they could all go in all the places together, but Roddy will die, obviously, in Tumbleton. So, sad. Tommy Flynn again, a one season guest star. Thank you so much. Yeah. So Kristen Cole, Kristen Cole dying. Yeah. Well, and maybe, maybe it shouldn't be Damon, because the whole point about Kristen Cole's death is like, you die sad. Yeah. You don't get to have a big fun scene. No songs. You just die real sad. No songs about how brave you die. Yeah. Yeah. So Kristen's like, holy shit, and then just dies. I mean, honestly, for that reason, it shouldn't even be Roddy. It should just be no one. Yeah. It should be someone in the army we haven't even fucking met. Or Black Alley. I hope it's Black Alley. Or Roddy. Let's get her. She gets to do something. Roddy the Ruin. She just like shoots him in the throat. She's just like. That would be great. As he's like, well, what if we just like considered, oh, you're going to take a lot of losses too. And they're like, that's why we came here. Roddy gets to kill Gwyn, let's say. I'm not ready to say goodbye to Gwyn. Okay. Not enough time with Freddie Fox. Two betrayers front. Well, we should say, you know, he's lasted longer than he should have. I know. He should be dead as the gold cloaks turn. So that's nice. As the gold cloaks turn. That's my daily soap opera, as the gold cloaks turn. Two betrayers set up here. Just a bounty. Wait, really quickly. If Roddy kills Gwyn. Yeah. And then Orman kills Roddy. Does that feel like I killed your poncy, you know. As Orman, as Roddy is killing Orman. Roddy's bragging about killing Gwyn and then Orman kills him. Is that fun? I don't know. Could be. And let's, yeah, we got to, yeah. Yeah. I think Roddy having, it's interesting because we just met him. So for Roddy to kill Kristen and Orman in like the span of a few episodes, that's like a major kill count, which like makes the most sense based on the canon. Yeah. But like, that's a lot. lot of bodies to rack up for a fairly new character and that's why you cast tommy again. Yeah. I am sad to have to say goodbye to Ormond at the end of the season, assuming Tumulton. We don't know for sure, but it seems it seems like a lock that Tumulton would be the finale. They're doing a great job setting up the two betrayers. They really are. Oh, you know, I mean, Ulf is going to be so ready to to peace out on Team Black by the time it happens. And then he was like, my wife, my wife. Yeah. His wife's going to Tumulton, which is not a place you want to be. No, no, it's not the safest place in the world. No safer place. No safer place. That have you not betrayed your queen line from Rhaenyra to just in general setting up like the mistrust. Adam came to of her supporters. Oh, very tough. What else? Let's see. Sunfire. Long in the dying. Dear God, when when do we get to be released from this fiction that they've created on the show that Sunfire is dead? OK, so let me ask you this, because in the book, Sunfire being alive and sort of like just they're stuck healing is, like, established. And then suddenly it's like Sunfire got away. So we know Sunfire's gone. Yeah. The thing we don't know about is Aegon, actually. Yeah. Long stretches of fire and blood. And then that reunion at Dragonstone is like a huge reveal. So will we just be privy to every step of that story and like know that Aegon and Sunfire are basically preparing what they're preparing at Dragonstone? Like, will no part of that be a twist as it is in the book, given that we're just like we're. We're traveling this road with Aegon. So I guess we'll just we'll see it all happen in real time and that'll just be different. Yeah. OK. It can only keep so many characters off the screen for two seasons. Well, Aegon's so fun. Yeah, it's true. Yes. What else? Any other things we haven't yet? Do you think he puts Laris on, you know, in the J spot, just sort of like lumps Laris bodies over the over the front of the saddle and takes him to Dragonstone? Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe Laris travels by boat and meets him there. So Tumbleton happens. And Aegon. Do you think Aegon takes Dragonstone end of the season? That's kind of why I'm like curious, because in terms of overall plot beats, everything long in the dying and long in the getting to drag. Yeah. And like everything that actually happens with Sunfire, a moon dancer, Aegon, Bela, Rhaenyra, other Aegon, that should be very late in season four. Mm hmm. So, like. That's a lot of episodes to cover. Yeah. Does Aegon just get to, like, hang out at Dragonstone for a season and just, like, chop it up with Keltigar? Maybe. That would be fun. The Aegon and Laris comedy show, but make it Dragonstone? Are they not going to do Keltigar's tax? I mean, it doesn't seem like he's getting the invite to King's Landing. I hope he does not make it over to King's Landing. Me too. Anything else? Not really. Laurent, he's going to have his head and face so beaten that they can't identify him. They can't identify him other than by the size of his body. Sir Luthor, which is just sad given how handsome we now know he is. Tough one. Tough one. Yeah. You really like Luthor. He looks great. Looks great. I feel like we did it. We did it. Episode three. Talk the Thrones. Sunday night with Chris Ryan. I can't wait. I've heard, you know, there was, like, rumor of this, like, conceptual episode this season. And that is, I've, like, heard. I've heard what episode three is. So I'm really excited to see how that all rolls out. But I feel like they're trying something new with episode three. Something a little different. Intriguing. Yeah. Intriguing. It seemed like the preseason reviews also were, like. Episode three. High on that. Banger. Cool. So that's exciting. Hopefully it's good. Thank you. Thank you to you, my darling. My most beloved. Joanna Robinson, first of her name. And thank you to our. Our Queensguard. Rhaenyra's Queensguard. I rate them higher. I rate them higher than the Queensguard. Ours is crushing it. Carlos Chiraboga. Correct. Scott Lee. Jacob Cornette. Our Juna Ramga-Powell and Jomi Adeneron squad. And anyone else who helped today? Yeah. I don't know if anyone else was here today. Jamie was here last week. Was Jamie here today? I don't think so. But Jamie, thanks to you anyway. We will see everybody on Sunday night immediately after House of the Dragon episode three for Talk the Thrones. And then we will see you on Monday. Oh, no. Maybe not Monday. We don't know when the next Lestat is. Sometime soon. TBD. Sometime next week. And then next Tuesday. We will see you on Monday evening for the deep dive into episode three. Bye. Ours! Listen up. 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