20: Hongi Hika’s wooden bust

[Music] Welcome to Object Matters, the podcast of the Chauchak Wing Museum at the University of Sydney. My name is Craig Barker and I'm the Head of Public Engagement for the Museum. In this episode, my guest is Brent Carahona. The aim of this podcast, of course, is to reflect upon the personal connection between a guest and a collection item from the Chauchak Wing Museum. But today, we've got a very, very special connection between our guest and an incredibly special item in the museum. And it will give us a chance to explore the way museums might engage on a personal as well as a cultural perspective. Today, we're going to travel 200 years back in time to learn about a remarkable man and a remarkable culture. Firstly, welcome Brent. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. It's great to be here. Brent, I'm wondering if you could tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. Okay, about myself. Well, firstly, let me recite a Māori proverb that goes, And that basically means the Kumaro or the sweet potato never talks about its sweetness. And that's in relation to modesty and humbleness and allowing others to talk about your achievements rather than yourself. That's a really beautiful sentiment, Brent. So, in that case, I'm going to talk about you. You are, of course, an educator and a tireless promoter of Māori culture here in Sydney. Could you talk a little bit about your background, your family background? So, my background is a little bit different in that I was born and raised in Australia, grew up in the Blue Mountains. Now, that was all except for a few years living in a port to Kia and the Bay of Plenty in New Zealand as an infant. So, I was relatively estranged from my Māori heritage and culture for much of my childhood and adolescent life. But, after serving ten years in the Army, I started to research my Fakapapa, which is family history. And I started to realise that my family had a lot of characters, a lot of people who were influential in the building of New Zealand or in the history of New Zealand. And that included our Māori war chiefs. Māori chiefs like Mokata, Kāinga, Matā, Rewa, Te Farrahī and, of course, the great Hōngi Hikar of which we're going to speak today. We will speak a lot about Hōngi Hikar in this podcast. But, before we get to that, can I get you to talk about your personal journey into discovering your own family history and cultural history and your immersion in broader, Maori understanding of historical developments? So, over the last two decades, I've done some in-depth and comprehensive research into early New Zealand 19th century history. A Māori history, especially in relation to the Ngāpuhi tribe of which I affiliate. And that includes an interactive historical novel, which hopefully is finished our next year. And it includes a number of public events of which one is coming up at the Chow Chauk Wing Museum, a short film that we're currently producing. So, we've been shooting nearly every weekend over the last, or say, two months. And that the filming started prior to COVID. So, we were filming in New Zealand. We were filming some of the scenes in England, places like Cambridge University and the Tower of London. But, with COVID, it came in inevitable, sort of cease to our filming. And we just started to pick that up again now. So, I think we've got one more weekend of filming and then we're off to Canberra for two weeks to start the editing process. I'm looking also at, I've written a couple of research papers. So, one article was published in the Journal of Museum Ethnology of 2019. And that was basically about a Māori Chief Hongi Ika, his journey to England in 1820. And then the comparison of three carved wooden bus of which we're going to speak today. Fascinating Brent, and I believe there's a few other projects you're working on as well. Additionally, I've been working on an illustrated bilingual children's book, also focusing on Hongi Ika's 1820 Journey to England. And working with a number of museums on a travelling exhibition in New Zealand, which I'll speak about a bit later. A great note though, is that over the past two weeks, I've been involved in a matter that was of extreme urgency and importance, or significance for Ngāpui and Māori in general. And that was a musket that was up for auction at Webb's Auction House in New Zealand. And this musket was claimed to have been given to Hongi Ika by King George IV. Now, I'll speak about this a little bit later too, but I was really blessed and humbled to be instrumental in helping to have that item withdrawn from the auction. And given my tribe an opportunity to further examine that for authenticity, and then to make a decision on whether or not we wanted to try and secure that item. And so that was a fantastic outcome, but I can speak about that a little bit later too. So that's the type of work that I've been able to do over the last two decades, and even living in Australia. I think for much of my research life, up until probably the last five years, I didn't really think that my research and work would have been going anywhere. And I felt like I was so isolated in Australia and the information that I had and that I know wasn't really being used to as full potential. But I can see now that it doesn't matter where you live, especially in this global world where we can connect through social media and things like that. And so you really can't have an impact no matter where you live, as long as you have the information that's relevant or important at the time. Now you talk about that working relationship you have developed with museums. Could you talk a bit about the object from the Chauchak Wing Museum collection that you've chosen to discuss on today's podcast? So the artifact or tome culture treasure that I'm going to speak about today is a carved wooden bust or head of the Māori Chief Hōngi Hika. So initially it was part of the Nicholson Museum collection and then it was transferred over to the McClay Museum. And now he has prior place in the Chauchak Wing Museum. It's an extraordinary piece and an truly beautiful piece as well, Brent. But could you describe it for our listeners? Okay, so we're looking at this talnour or artifact and we're taking into consideration things like size, shape, text, journey, decorations or features. But the first thing that I want to say is that unlike a lot of Māori carvings and especially of the time that was created, this actually looks like a realistic representation of a human head. Now it's about 30 centimetres high, so it's not quite as big as a human head in size and proportion, but for all regards it looks like a realistic human head. And when we talk about that, it could quite possibly be the very first Māori selfie because Māori carvings are usually abstract, outer proportion, features are overemphasized, but this one really does represent a realistic human head. So as I said, it's about 30 centimetres high, it's quite small, so it's probably about half the size of a normal if there is anything such as a normal human head. But the texture, it is quite smeared on the back. However, as you can imagine, the face is heavily etched, it's heavily etched with something known as the time walker, so traditional Māori facial tattoo. And so this time walker is quite intricate, so there's a lot of detail in there, it's quite intricate. And when you look at that and you look at pictures of honky paintings of honky that were commissioned and done in England in the 1820s, it really does look like a realistic representation of the man himself. The decorations, obviously the time walker is the decoration, that's the main focus of the bust, but he does have protruding ears on this bust and he also has a top nod or a bun of hair tied up at the rear of his head, top rear of his head. Now that's different to the other two that I've seen, so for so long we thought that this particular bust was the only one in existence. [Music] So we're looking at this timer or artifact and we're taking the consideration things like size, shape, texture, any decorations or features. But the first thing that I want to say is that unlike a lot of Māori carvings and especially if the time that was created, this actually looks like a realistic representation of a human head. Now it's about 30 cm high, so it's not quite as big as a human head in size and proportion, but for all regards it looks like a realistic human head. And when we talk about that it could quite possibly be the very first Māori selfie because Māori carvings are usually abstract out of proportion, features are overemphasized, but this one really does represent a realistic human head. So as I said it's about 30 cm high, it's quite small, so it's probably about half the size of a normal if there is anything such as a normal human head. But the texture, it is quite smooth on the back. However, as you can imagine, the face is heavily etched, it's heavily etched with something known as the Tamil War, so a traditional Māori facial tattoo. So this Tamil War is quite intricate, so there's a lot of detail in there, it's quite intricate. And when you look at that, and you look at pictures of homie paintings of homie that were commissioned and done in the 1820s, it really does look like a realistic representation of the man himself. The decorations, where obviously the Tamil War is the decoration, that's the main sort of focus of the bust. But it does have ears, so it does have protruding ears on this bust, and it also has a top not or a bun of hair tied up at the rear of his head, top rear of his head. Now Brent, you've already mentioned how homie was a Māori chief. Could you tell us a bit more about who he actually was? Now, homie Hikaru is a really complex character, so in the up we were chief, and he wasn't necessarily going to be a war chief, but he was thrust into that position because all of his older brothers had been killed in previous battles. But what happened is he was tasked by his mother to seek utora revenge for all of the past losses and the lives of the family members that had been lost in battles against other tribes. So he was tasked with that responsibility. And it stands to reason that with the interaction with the Europeans and the new technology available than the student intelligent man, such as homie, we'd like to take advantage of these. So he travelled to Port Jackson or Sydney and Paramata, hosted by the Reverend Samuel Mazden, and he was accompanied by Ruotara, who was one of his nephews, and a number of other chiefs. Now, while he was in Sydney and Paramata, he was learning about European agriculture and looking at the legal system and infrastructure and new technologies that could benefit them. So what he did is, when he was in Sydney, it's believed that he carved a wooden bust of his own likeness from a fence post from Samuel Mazden's Paramata property. So that's the tonga that we're actually talking about today. It's fascinating to understand more about that Sydney relationship, but given your Sydney base to yourself, could you explain to Alison a bit more about your personal relationship with Pongi and expand upon what you've already told us, please? So my personal connection to Honghika is twofold. Firstly, and that my four times great-grandmother, Te Al Paro, is the older sister to Te Hortetta, who was Honghika's father. And then secondly, that Honghika is intertwined in my three times great-grandfather's story. Mukha Te Kaina Matar was a wall chief, and I've been writing a historical novel, interactive historical novel over the past 15 years, focusing on early news in the history through his eyes. And so being first cousins and then being involved in, and living with each other over, you know, that 20 to 30-year period, they were supporting each other, they were involved in all of the campaigns together. They were virtually inseparable. So Mukha had two other brothers, Rewa and Te Faradahi, and the three brothers and Honghika, because Honghika was basically left by himself after the death of his older brothers. So they were a really tight unit, and they did everything together. If you could tell us a bit more about the short film that you're making too, it seems a remarkable way of recording and exploring Honghika's life. Okay, so the short film really was an afterthought initially, so with my interactive historical novel, I was shooting sort of small reenactments of different things that had happened throughout the novel to make it more interactive for readers, and especially children. And I started to realize that I had enough reenactments in relation, especially in relation to Honghika's role, and his trip to England to make a short film, well by itself, standalone short film. And so I decided to dedicate some time towards that, time and some fun. And you know, I was fortunate that I was able to travel to England a few times. I must thank so many people and so many institutions that have supported us in kind, you know, putting us film on ground and institutions without any filming fees at all. I mean, you've got to realise that, you know, without any funding, and that's pretty much what I've done at the moment, is, you know, being able to work on all of these projects with my own money. So, you know, I'd love some funding. I really would. If anyone had business and you'd like to support our co-papa, our projects, please feel free to contact us. But back to the film. You know, I really think the actors involved because most of them have gone above and beyond and they've made themselves available. What I've found with creating a short film is it's not a lack of money, it's not a proof of film at certain places. One of the real big issues you have and one of the problems, it's really problematic is that you have to make sure that all the actors are available at the time that you want to film. But you don't have a budget, you can't pay them that the amount of money that they need to take time off work, that they can cross off days on their calendar and commit to a short film. So, for me, that was a really big eye-opener, that it's really hard to get people at the same location at the same time without having a budget. But I'd love to say thank you so much to all of our actors and actresses, you know, like they've done a fantastic job. And I haven't let anyone act for free. So, even though I don't really have the funding, I've paid everyone out of my own savings really. But in the multicultural, we sort of have this thing called Kauha where people offer to give you things, what to help out and maybe act for free. And I understand that and I appreciate that. But at the same time as well, they're giving up their time and possibly money if they're taking time off work. So, I always make sure that I can pay all of my actors and actresses. And there's one thing that I'm really proud of that I really don't like to use people. So in all of the work that I do, you know, I want to make sure that everyone feels valued and for their time, their talents and their skills and their company. You know, that you love their company while you're on set shooting. And there's so many, there's been so many funny and enjoyable moments. You know, there's jokes, there's bloopers. You're always learning things. So you're learning things that you never knew from other people as well, even in relation to the research. The little stories that people have heard, the people have had passed down in their families that you haven't heard before. So, you know, the short film has been amazing. We've filmed, like I said, we've filmed some scenes in New Zealand, you know, Australia, England, and we're just lucky that we've been able to put it together. So we're really proud of it. And you know, when I say that, I mean, even when we look at the fact that we went funded, you know, and actually, as I'll mention that, just touch on it, I've been in a pretty unique situation. It's unfortunate in that, you know, I'm based in Australia. And so when I'm asking people for support, you know, or funding towards a project, that the issue that I seem to run into is that the funding from New Zealand is difficult to obtain or acquire because one, I'm an Australian citizen and two, I'm an Australian resident. And so that basically rules me out of a lot of the funding criteria for sponsorships and grants and things like that in New Zealand. And then it's probably worse in Australia where, you know, if I sort of apply for funding on this end, the issue is that people are saying, well, why would we fund, you know, historical novel or historical short film based on New Zealand's history? So as you can imagine, I'm sort of, it's almost like the analogy I'd use would be, I'm in a dingy in the middle of the Tasman without any orcs. And I was just sort of drifting there. So, you know, my life line basically, my life line has been my own pay from my teaching gig. So, you know, that's, it's been very problematic, but insane that, and this is what I want, you know, for all of my students, and this isn't, I think one of the reasons why I've done it is that, you know, what my students and my own children to realise that if you want to do something, you don't have, there's no barriers, you just make it happen. So yes, it's challenging. Yes, it takes a long time and a lot of effort and you're working so hard to do so many wrongs because you don't have the funding to pay anybody. But, you know, if you really are dedicated and passionate, you will make it happen. And I think that's what we're seeing with this short film that we're really passionate and it did happen. And so, for those of you who are attending our event, yeah, we hope you love it. And then we're taking it to New Zealand a couple of days later. We'll be showing it at Kauhunga, who museum at the White Tungu Treaty Grounds. And then eventually, what we're doing is we're looking at filming a couple more scenes, a few more scenes and adding to that, extending it a little bit, and then we're going to call how, or gift it, donate it to schools across New Zealand because for those of you who may not be aware, the New Zealand government in late 2019 decided made the decision to make New Zealand history mandatory in New Zealand from two years ago. 2022 onwards. And so next year being 2022 this will be my call or gift to all New Zealand students to learn the most balanced and accurate and up-to-date history about these periods and these particular events and incidents. So yeah that's that's the short film. I'm very inspired and excited by your passion and your drive Brent but and must take personally really looking forward to seeing the short film as well but in addition to the film and there are other ways that the Maori community both in Australia and in New Zealand marking the bicentennial. Okay so some of the other ways that we are commemorating the bicentennial apart from the short film is we're holding a number of public events. Now as we mentioned before unfortunately we had to cancel the English based events but we still are having an event in Sydney and then we're having some events in New Zealand but what we're looking forward to is some educational initiatives so that's the illustrated by the Dingwal storybook, Children's Book and we're also looking at holding a major exhibition in New Zealand in 2025. So we want to bring all of the Tolga related to Hongi, Waikato and Thomas Kierndall together in New Zealand to be exhibited together in a traveling exhibition and so the idea behind that is that we started Te Papa Tonga Rewa which is the National Museum in Wellington and we'd have those Tonga or artifacts on its show for about four months and then they'd be packed up and transported to Tamaki Paiingahirau which is the Auckland War Memorial Museum and they'd be exhibited there also for about four months and then finally they'd be transferred to Te Kongahu Museum which is the Waitangi Treaty grounds and they'd be on display there for the final four months before those artifacts are returned to their places of residence excepting hopefully for the Kākuhu, the cloak that Hongi gave the King so it's my intention to to work with museums across New Zealand and England to try and secure a long-term loan for that kākuhu. So some of you may know that there was a Hawaiian cloak that was brought back to England by Captain Cook and that has been loaned to the Bishop Museum in Hawaii for I think 99 to 100 years so long-term loan so that's what we're hoping to do and the reason the justification for that is that the British Museum didn't really know what what the article was they didn't know what the artifact was they didn't know that it was Hongi's kākuhu or that it would in fact was gifted to the King the fact that it's not on display it's only in storage and when I spoke with one of the curators they were saying that less than 1% of all of the artifacts I have will ever be exhibited were in fact if it was in New Zealand it would be on permanent display not only for the New Zealand public but also for descendants of Hongi and for New Zealand students to have a look too so you know as they're learning about Hongi and Hikawa Waikato and Thomas Kendall and their journey to women in 2020 they can they can view that that Tonga or that cultural treasure every day every day on display now you mentioned before that the bust in Sydney was not the only wooden calf bus of Hongi could you tell us the story about the Baviet and the other bus so there are three car bus purportedly of Hongi in existence so one of them is in the Brighton Hope Museum in England another one is in the Auckland War Memorial Museum in New Zealand and then another is this bus here at the Chow Chukwea Museum now there's a lot of conjecture about exactly how many or which of the three car bus Hongi carved himself while he was in Paramata in 1814 so my my research initially started I wanted to try and identify the original so I wanted to try and identify whether Hongi carved or three or if he only carved one of them which one was it was at the one in Brighton was at one in Auckland or was at the one here and what I quickly learned is that it's not so much a matter of which is the original it's the significance of all three of the busts okay so that is more important in my eyes what I'm looking at here is that I love the fact absolutely love the fact that there is one car bus of Hongi in each of the three places that he traveled so maintains that connection between the three countries that legacy of his journey and his experiences so as I said there's three car busts and I've had the the pleasure and the honour of being able to hold those and examine each of the three and I have some issues with the the bust in Auckland in that the Kauai or the chin is squared off and it doesn't have any design there and you think that I mean the symbolism of a tar mucle you wouldn't go to all the effort of carving an entire upokou ahead and then carving all the tar mucle designs and then decide just to leave the the Kauai or the chin bear that doesn't doesn't resonate well with me I love the design though like I absolutely love the way that it looks that style it's a little bit abstract but that was the first one that I oversaw I think I saw that way back in about 2007 and it immediately struck me as being beautiful and the significance of it being Hongi Ikaw it wasn't last either and then I found out about the bust here when it was in the Mcclay Life Museum and I was looking at that and if I was to say at that point in time so as anywhere that there were two at that point in time if I was to say that out of those two out of the one in Auckland and the one in that here in Chelchuk Wing which one was the original or which one was the one that Hongi carved I would definitely say that it was this one now I went to England in January 2019 and for some reason I had this this this feeling now we in New Zealand or in the Māori culture we call it wairua so like a spiritual feeling and I I really felt that there was something significant in England that I needed to see and then unfortunately you know I got back to Australia after the trip and immediately I discovered found out that there was supposedly another bust that that may have been Hongi Ikaw you know and I was only disappointed in the fact that I didn't know about it that first time and so a couple of months later I organized to go back again and when I when I viewed it I was really impressed so the the workmanship is fantastic the proportions are beautiful and it looked like hardwood it looked like Australian hardwood as well and so realistically if we were to try and ascertain which one was the original between the bust that's in Brighton and the bust that we have here at the Chelchuk Wing Museum it's proving difficult and I think you know dendrology so if we test the wood if we take a slither of wood from the base of each of the the busts that might that might assist us in trying to find out you know which one it could be because obviously the description we have is that that it was carved from a fence post on Marsden's property now the fence post in in Paramount I would most likely be some kind of Eucalyptor Gum and so you know that would go a long way into to juicing which one would be the one that Hongi carved they're both absolutely beautiful the designs are striking they're clean and they they do realistically look like you know a human head and the workmanship is is very very different so the workmanship on the bust in Brighton and the bust here at Chelchuk Wing in my opinion farm far more superior to the the design and the carving on the bust in Auckland it's really quite extraordinary and we have this you know remarkable story of the three different busts do you know anything about the the one that's here in Sydney and how it actually ended up in our museum is there any record as to how it's ended up within this collection okay so the history of the bust here in Chelchuk Wing is somewhat convoluted in that the earliest that we can trace a back is that it was in the collection of the Nicholson Museum in the mid to late 1800s so there's no paperwork no accompanying paperwork to suggest any provenance for that but it is the oldest known bust the oldest recorded bust of Hongi being in any institution at all so the other two the bust that's in Brighton that was found by a lady called Lillian Badley from Port Slade and I was wondering how did it get from Lillian Badley in Port Slade to the Brighton Museum what was a connection now when I did a quick google search looked on google maps and apparently Port Slade is like a town right next to Brighton so the Brighton Museum was that the biggest major museum to this woman and so you know stands the reason that she decided to donate it to to the Brighton Museum now she doesn't have any paperwork or any anything to suggest to any providence, she doesn't know how it came to be in her family. And so the Brayton bust is almost, you know, although that was, I think it was 1957, Lillian Bailey donated that. So before that, there's no providence for it. But I have an inkling, I have an inkling that that was the one that was sent by Samuel Marsden to the Church Missionary Society in London that was in a Church Missionary Society journal printed in 1816. Anyway, so we go to the Auckland bust and the Auckland bust was found in a house in Wales in 1967. And so that was the last one to be found or located. And so realistic when we look at this, so in terms of busts and have they been in institutions and have they been acknowledged. So this bust that we have at the Child Chuck Wing has been in a museum for longer than the other two. So as I said, the late 1890s, or sorry, late 1800s. And then the next one was the one at the Brayton Museum and we're looking at, I think it was 1957. And then we're looking at the one in Auckland. And I think that's come, come to the fore in 1967. Okay, so that's the timeline. Unfortunately, we don't have any providence, you know, for many of those. Brent, what does the bust mean to you personally? What do you find when you look at it each time? I think what I'm impressed by and what resonates with me is that there's three of them and there's one in each of the three countries to which he travelled. So it maintains that connection between the three countries and it maintains his legacy of where he travelled and what he did. And what do you find each time you actually look at the bust and you spend time at the bust here in Sydney? Well, it's a little bit different for me. It's not simply an artifact. So and or even a Tolga, a cultural treasure. We look at items like this as being imbued with the character and the personality of the subject. And so I don't look at the bust as a carved bust. I look at the bust as in Hongi. I look at that and I speak to him and I wonder, I share the space, I share the space with Hongi and I wonder what kind of experiences he had and I wonder what would he think of the world today? So if he was if he was here today, what would he think of the world? What opportunities would he take? What decisions would he make? So what can we learn from Hongi Hikers' story Brent? What other takeaway lessons do you believe? So Hongi Hikers' story is someone who was left without a number of siblings and family members as a result of war. Someone who had been tasked with seeking revenge for the losses of those lives. And you can imagine that weighing on you being the responsible, you know, to make sure that you square the ledger. And so as we've mentioned earlier with the new technology available with muskets and firearms. So Hongi decided that that would be the best strategy, you know, to gain more firearms and he travelled as we said, he travelled to Sydney in 1814. And that would have been sort of, you know, trying to find out more about technology and learning about military strategies and tactics. But then again in 1820, so he and Waikato Waikato was his brother-in-law and the CMS missionary Thomas Kendall travelled to England. And when they were in England, they helped comprise an English-Molly dictionary called a Grammar and Vocabulary, the language of New Zealand, which was being worked on by Professor Samuel Lee, a linguist at Queens College in Cambridge University. Now, Thomas Kendall having written an English-Molly dictionary, Akaroa Noon, New Zealand, which was published in Sydney in 1815, wanted to contribute towards that. He thought that if he didn't have any role in that book written by an academic, that his work would be relegated to obscurity. And so he really wanted to make sure that he had an input and a contribution to that book. So that was one of his goals. He also wanted to be ordained as a priest. Now, he normally wouldn't be because he was a layman missionary. And so there's requirements to become a priest such as, you know, understanding Latin and being able to read and write in ancient Greek and other requirements. And also that he was at odds with some of the other missionaries in New Zealand and Samuel Marsden wasn't very happy with him. And so Thomas Kendall being ordained as a priest probably would never have happened if he didn't travel to England and helped say substantially with the compilation of this new Māori English dictionary. Now, also, Hongi and Waikato were absolutely fitted by high society in England. They were taken to fairs and swerays and dinner parties. And they were hosted by a Sir John Mortlucker banker and to Lady Pym. They were introduced to the purge at the House of Lords in the 21st of October. And then they were also given an audience with the King, the King George IV at Colton House on the 13th of November. They exchanged gifts. So Hongi and Waikato were taking off their carcass who were woven flex cloaks and placing them at the feet of the King. And then exchanged the King gave them a number of items. And as I said, a number of items, some items of real value. So we're looking at double-barrelled philic log fouling guns, which are sporting guns. And they had a ceremonial plaque attached, saying that they were gifted by King George IV to Shawngi, King of Nāpui of New Zealand. And like was for Waikato, Prince Waikato, Rangihu, they were given a gilded metal lifeguard helmet with basking crest. They were given a scabbard and a military straight sword. They were given a shaco, which is a military hat. I'll let a stock as part of the uniform. They were given a red scarlet coat with blue facing and silver lacing. And they were also given chainmail suit of armour. So you know, the exchange wasn't quite, wasn't so bad. I'm pretty sure that Hongi and Waikato were quite happy with that meeting and that trade. And so what happened is they were given a tour of Colton House, the gardens, the armoury that was upstairs. And that's where they were given these gifts. They were also given a tour of the Tower of London. And then also the Royal Arsenal, which is out of Woolwich. And so they really were fitted and looked after quite well while they're in England. And so this leads us to why 2021 is important for us. Now obviously we're looking at the tour that went to England. The men went to England in 1820 and so the base centennial would have been last year being 2020. Now unfortunately COVID, we had some events lined up. And now opening event was going to be at Queen's College and Cambridge University last year, but because of COVID, we had to cancel all of our English based events. So 2021 is the year that we get back on track. It truly is a remarkable story, Brent. And I'm so so pleased that you've been able to get the commemoration, the bicentennial commemoration back on track. What now for you? What's next after this? I'm also just nearing completion of a research paper or journal article focusing on the the meeting between Hongi and the King, the exchange of gifts between them, which is known as Tuku, so reciprocal gifting. I'm also providing an in-depth description of all of the gifts that were exchanged between the two leaders. Something that has never happened before. And obviously because I've come across these documents that people haven't had access to. So that's really fortunate for me at this time. Also the second half of the research paper focuses on, it's a study, an in-depth study of the Kaka-Hoo or the woven Harakiki flex cloak that Hongi gifted King George the fourth. And this is in the British Museum. So they weren't really aware that they had it or the significance of that particular cloak. To them, it's just been a multi-clote. But all of our research leads to the fact that the points to the fact that this isn't the fact that Kaka-Hoo that Hongi gave to King George the fourth on the 13th of November 1820. What an amazing story Brent. And what a remarkable journey Hongi had. And we are so so fortunate in the Chao Chak Wing Museum to have within the collection an item associated with it. And so fortunate to have such passionate people, such as yourself, able to share your knowledge and your stories. Thank you so much for joining us today, Brent Kerahuna, taking us on a journey for the story of Hongi Hikker. Object matters is recorded on the grounds of the Gadigal people of the Eero Nation. The Chao-Chak Wing Museum and the University of Sydney pay our respect to the traditional owners, and we acknowledge the elders past, present and emerging. Subscribe to Object Matters on your favourite podcast app and connect with the Chao-Chak Wing Museum on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. 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