Homeless Shelters to Beauty Mogul | Jackie Aina

You couldn't outright tell a brand. This is not going to work for me. Or you couldn't call out a Loria. You couldn't call out a giant. You couldn't call out a conglomerate. Because you would get black balls for stuff like that. You would-- people would not work with you. There have definitely been several moments where I thought, "Mmm, I might be pushing it." Like, "I might have gone too far. My career might be over." Where does that inspiration come from? I'm the oldest of seven. I have a lot of money, and we're very broke. This house is like 800 square feet dark. Wow. And there was only one bathroom. Spending time at a homeless shelter, especially as a kid. On there, I forget this day because I came home from elementary school. And there was a literal line of, like, hefty bags. 'Cause we couldn't afford no suitcases. All of our stuff stuffed into garbage bags, trailing outside the door. And I just remember going in the house thinking, "What the heck is going on?" Like, "And my mom telling us that we were leaving." And I was, like, leaving an old warehouse. So we ended up going into shelters. When we were in shelters, is when we were allowed to, like, actually leave and go out, I used to go to, like, barns and nobles. I would go straight to the beauty section, and I would sit there, and I would read and memorize the makeup books that I was reading. Was that your first experience with makeup? I was fascinated with makeup, but I wasn't wearing it. You decide to drop out of college at a certain point. Eddie, join the Army Reserves. Actually, I was failing every class. One school was on the line, one house was on the line. I didn't want to be there in the first place. I was like, "I'm just joined the Army, I guess." I know you get married very young. Yeah, I was, and I got divorced very young. You've seen some of the interviews you've done. I know you've talked openly about not being a healthy relationship, and even it was an abusive relationship. I thought I was stuck. I thought it was too late. I thought I was just, like, what's already happened? Like, this is what I can do now. Most people don't understand, like, why don't you just leave me? It's truly not that simple. All I can think about is Jackie today, who is so outspoken and, like, strong-minded. I had to rebuild my confidence from the ground up. And whatever little voice I had, I was not using, 'cause I was just, like, exhausted. At what point do you decide that you're gonna create your first YouTube video? I made this video, and I was, like, tell 'em myself, "Should I do this, should I not do this?" I was, like, "Well, are we thinking this might be the last run for me on YouTube?" I upload this video within 24 hours. It had, like, 60,000 views. I was immediately scared. My knee-jerk reaction was, did I get canceled? Did I just ruin my reputation? I wanna actually take us back to 2019. I think that's one of the first times that you actually sat down with your audience and talked about the lack of diversity in the makeup industry. So, I would love to start with, like, where does your drive come from from calling out injustices that you see in the world? I have been pretty much doing that throughout the life of my YouTube channel. Yeah. But I was doing it in smaller ways. And the moment, I think, got collectively bigger as my audience grew, as I got more comfortable, as I got more followers. Like, in the early years of my YouTube channel, that you couldn't outright tell a brand, this is not gonna work for me, or you couldn't call out a Luria, you couldn't call it a giant, you couldn't call it a conglomerate. Because, like, you would get black balls for stuff like that. You would, people would not work with you. You would get shunned. I remember there were times where, like, the first time I tried to get, like, a manager, for example. And obviously, they did, like, a deep dive on my content, and it was very like, we can't work with you. Like, you talk too much, or you're too vocal, or you're, and it's crazy that me just simply saying, but you don't have products that work for somebody. Like, me was, like, controversial. Yeah. And it had, like, real life repercussions when you didn't have a lot of followers. This was not a time, 2009, 2010. Like, I would say, peak beauty community years, where, like, 2014 was when stuff really started popping off. Like, when you were, when you were, like, a beauty guru, 2014 was like, you do tutorials? Like, the girls were a gag. But, like, you had to be really strategic with how you spoke. So, it's not that I wasn't vocal, then I was, but I, I think, focus more on education. So, I would do, like, tutorials for darker complexions, right? It was less about, like, just calling out people, or I would try to be really careful with how I would call things out. Because I still wanted to have a job. Like, I still wanted to do something with this, even though in 2009, I wasn't making money on YouTube. But, I had to be really, really careful, yeah. - And so, when you started speaking your mind, did you notice any sort of, like, backlash from brands? Do you think that was why it was hard for you to succeed in the beauty industry early on? - There have definitely been several moments where I thought, I might be pushing it, like, I might have gone too far. My career might be over, I don't know. But, I would say the most, the most recent one was 2020. There was a lot of black squares, because of, you know, people were, people were just now learning what most black Americans been to about Black Lives Matter. That was not, it's funny because a lot of people talk about that being, like, a 2020 thing. And I'm like, no, that was not. Like, y'all are kind of late. It's been around for a while. But, when it became, like, a social movement, and then brands started getting involved, and brands started showing, you know, their support, which was great. There were some things that I thought were very obvious examples of just, like, planning people's faces. So, there were a number of different brands that I had previously called out, I guess you could say, from, like, a better words, that I felt, did things, like, use black lingo in their ads, and they would, like, use black creators. But then I started hearing, like, they weren't getting paid, and I'm like, why are y'all paying me and not paying them? That seems weird. Like, they have a lot of followers. Like, why do I keep hearing this rumblings about people not really being paid? They started getting called out more for it, and it was always, like, black creators specifically. And then you would go on their Instagram, and it's like, okay, I know you work with a lot of black creators, but you don't post them. Like, that seems weird. That seems like a conflict of interest. Like, you send them the product, but you don't feel like they're good enough to be represented when customers come on your Instagram page, and that's directly what I called out. And honestly, when I posted that, it felt like a normal Tuesday. I was just doing what I wanted to do. Like, I didn't think it was gonna be this, people were gonna be like, how did you not think that? You have a lot of followers. - You said the names of the brands, right? - Yeah, you called them out, okay. - Directly, yeah. But it's not the first time I did it. It's definitely not the first time I did it, but it started a big conversation. - So what did this experience made you think that you might get canceled or your career might be over? - Public I was getting a lot of support for my community, which was great. Like, I had done that anyway. But I felt like publicly, they were doing things to look good, but privately, the opposite. That's what I experienced. And I've never shared what those things are, but it felt like, oh, they actually are single-handedly doing things to try to stop this opportunity or make me look bad in another way. Yeah, definitely. - So many creators face this challenge where it's like, do you speak out about issues? Do you stay quiet and the safer way, right? To like not get in any sort of mess, not say anything wrong, not get canceled by brands, is to not say anything at all. Where does that inspiration come from? That like, you see something wrong with the world and you wanna speak out about it. Is it like, you feel a responsibility like for your people? - It's really, honestly, you know what I think it is? I think it just boils down to like, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if something bothered me and I didn't say it. Or it kind of comes from the same motivation of like achieving a goal, right? Like, if you just, what if, if that, what if I never actually did this always lingered and you never attempted to do something or you never attempted to try that new hobby or that new career or that new whatever? I think that same driving force for me comes from speaking about things like injustices and beauty and justices for people who look like me, period. I don't know. I just couldn't be able to sleep comfortably if I didn't address the obvious. - And I'm sure a lot of that goes back to your upbringing as well. So I'd love to explore your childhood a little bit. - Yeah, I'm the oldest of seven in my family. So I have immigrant father, my dad's from Nigeria and my mom is Black American. They were very different. So my upbringing was very, there was a lot going on 'cause obviously there's like nine of us in our house at some point and we did not have a lot of money and we were very broke when I was younger. And so I basically meant that there was like nine of us, my parents, all my siblings in this little tiny house, here in LA in San Gabriel Valley and this house was like 800 square feet dollar. So it was tiny, it was a box and there was only one bathroom. So imagine like nine people sharing one bathroom and then the craziest part is, I thought my dad was an immigrant. So like when his family members when it's come to the US, they would stay with us first most times. So when his family, like when they moved to the US, they would like stay with us and they, there was like sometimes 14 of us in the house. It was crazy. - Oh, okay. - So it was, it was a lot, it was very chaotic. And you know what's so funny? It's like considering how vocal I am now, when I was a child I was actually very obedient. I was very like, my parents were strict. So my household, my upbringing was very regimented, especially because I was the first born. So I had to be the most responsible. I had to be the most obedient, I guess you could say. I was very like, I played like that perfect daughter, archetype, that perfect daughter trope. And yeah, it took me a while to find my voice for sure. I remember reading about how growing up, like your parents also, had like an on and off type relationship or they struggled in their marriage. What was that like witnessing? - It was tough because I didn't have a good positive example of like a healthy familial family structure, marriage examples either. And yeah, I just, I don't think my parents should have ever been married. - I mean, was it, 'cause I know some parents like try to do everything they can to try to hide their problems in their kids, but. - I think it was like staying for the kids. - Okay. Is it obvious that there was problems in the household? - Yeah, it was very, you know what? It becomes obvious when it's like you go to school and you talk to other kids and you're like, oh, your dad doesn't sleep in the living room? That's not normal. And it's like, no, that's not normal. And I never saw all my parents like really be affectionate. So it's like, as you get older, like obviously you're like, yeah, you have you two are not meant to be together at all. But that's, and that's also what I'm like, not the biggest fan of like the sting for the kids. 'Cause it's like kids, kids know when two adults are not meant to, like something's not, right? And I almost wish considering all of what I went through when I was a child. I almost wish they would have just like ripped the bandaid off sooner and just split up and exposed this to whatever that. And I know hindsight is 2020, but I genuinely feel like seeing a two-parent home that was like dysfunctional was actually worse than just being like just being a parent. Like I would have just, yeah, I think I would have just preferred that because my parents didn't divorce until I was like 20, 20 or 21. So I had like two decades of like, wait, okay, so you're not together now. So I think that was actually more of a mind trip. 'Cause I had gotten 20 years. That was the whole life of them being together, but like not, like they weren't good together. So I had to like relearn that part of adulthood after they split up. So-- - And that was when they got divorced when you were in college, right? - That was when they actually got divorced. - But they separated a couple of times. So I think first time when you were 11, next time when you were 15-- - Yeah, it was 10, yeah, it was 10. - Okay, and during this separation was your dad, like he was the breader and your mom was stay at home. - She worked, but she did more of the stay-at-home responsibilities. So yes, he was basically the breadwinner and my mom worked, but like I was the third parent in the house, so like I was the built-in babysitter, which is my god, like, trauma in itself. - But yeah, so them splitting up first when I was 10, and then the second time when I was like a sophomore in high school, that was when I was like, okay, y'all are, like I can't do this anymore. Like I'm in high school, like I genuinely felt like that was the first time I had to like have an adult conversation with my parents, like-- - When you said there's a lot of trauma that comes from having to be the eldest of seven and having to be like a babysitter, the third parent, what were you referring to? - The trauma is that most of the issues come from the fact that you're a child who's given adult responsibility but you're also still the child. And you end up, I think this is when I first started to find my voice because when I became a teenager, I understood that like my parents need me. So I'm doing, like I didn't give my parents any issues when I was young. I always had exceptional grades, like I always excelled, I was smart. I literally did everything they told me to do. So it kind of turned into you need me. So you're not gonna talk to me any kind of way or like it just kind of became this like power dynamic in a way, which I don't think a child, she may have to experience 'cause it's like, you shouldn't be faced with like making adult decisions or when the worst is when one parent vents about the other parent to you and it's like don't do that with your kids. Like that's not good. You should have community outside of your children. You should have other people to vent to. And I just felt like I knew too much and I took on too much like the fact that like I wanted to like volunteer to like go to shelter so that my mom had more help is like good. I guess good at the end of day, but then it's like, I had to give up my education. You know what I mean for that? That was rough. Like children shouldn't have to make those decisions. - Yeah, I can definitely relate. You know, growing up my parents came from India. They moved here what, 45 years ago or so. They had my older brother, they had me. My dad wore, you know, he still wears a turban. They didn't speak like very much English at all. They had to learn English like while they're here. They had no money. And so they were trying to figure out, you know, this new country, they were trying to figure out how to make it very similar, you know, type of upbringing where my parents, whatever little money they had, they'd still have to send money back home to India. And so I found myself often in the place of taking on adult responsibilities and trauma as a kid. Whereas like whatever problems were happening in the family, they were constantly venting to me about, right? And so I saw my role as a problem solver. And it was almost like because I was young or a kid, I didn't have any real problems according to them. So like my problems didn't really matter. So I remember for a long time, just feeling like kind of invisible in some ways and just carrying all this pressure on my shoulders. - Yeah. - But what's amazing is that despite, you know, our challenging upbringing, both of us have, you know, come a long way in our career. So I was just finding it like very fascinating that some people they grew up with like amazing upbringing and have everything perfect, you know, it was like a child. I mean, there's no such thing as perfection, but they have like every best chance. And then for whatever reason as they become an adult, they don't make it. And then you see the opposite, right? People that go through so much trauma that later end up doing so well for themselves. And I wonder if there's any sort of correlation there because obviously, you know, through pain also builds persistence, it builds progress. And I know, you know, from your, from reading about your story, you know, when I think about spending time in a homeless shelter, especially as a kid, as a 10 year old, as a teenager, high school, oh my gosh, that sounds so difficult. So the first time we left the home was actually, I think at the time, my two youngest brothers, I don't think they were born. So there was only five of us the first time we left the home. And it was on every this day because I came home from elementary school. And there was a literal line of like hefty bags 'cause we couldn't afford no suitcases. But it was a line of hefty bags with all of our stuff stuffed into garbage bags, like trailing outside the door. And I just remember going in the house thinking, what the heck is going on? Like, what is this? And my mom telling us what was going on and that we were leaving. And I was like, leaving it all away. Like, and then we're coming back over the weekend. Like, what does that mean? And no, so we ended up going into shelters. And that was how I learned how the entire like shelter system worked. It's not that the experience itself was positive. It's hard because if you stay in domestic violence shelters, for example, once the partner finds that you're displaced from once they find where you're located, it puts everybody at risk. They don't want any, you know, they don't want there to be a situation where the person could confront you and harm you, you know what I mean? A lot of these shelters were like domestic violence shelters. So in order to preserve the safety of the staff, the other people who live there, if your partner finds out where you are, you have to go and they will reshuffle you to somewhere else. So that was what was really hard because it's not like we left and then we're sat in one place for a couple months where my parents worked out whatever and eventually they got back together because they did eventually get back together. But it was like every week you'd have to pack up and go somewhere else and imagine having to do that with like six people. Like, it was a lot. It was really intense and it was just annoying 'cause there was already so many of us. And also a lot of shelters. It's harder to take in families that are bigger. So obviously, you know, there's like six of us. So me at the time all four of my siblings and then the second time with shelter, a lot of change. 'Cause first, the first on my parents put up, I was like 10. And then the second time that they had put up, I was like, I would have been 16, I think, 'cause no, 15. So I had two more brothers. So I'm like, we gotta do this again. And there's two more kids. I was like, no, listen, we gotta work something out. We gotta figure this out. But we ended up leaving. And the one thing that I was very grateful for is a lot of the shelters because you are not in a public school system. So you do homeschooling and a part of the curriculum is they teach you about like alcoholics anonymous. They teach you education on addiction. They teach you education on patterns of abuse and relationships. And they actually do teach you a lot of, they give you like counseling. And I think that they do like a pretty good job of teaching you things that I actually think schools in general should be teaching in like sex and classes. Like they don't teach you stuff. Like how to spot an abusive partner. Like, and there's so many different types of abuse, by the way. There's physical abuse. There's emotional abuse. There's financial abuse. They're all very, very different. But they can in a lot of times operate the same way and can be just as detrimental to people. And those are things that I will always carry with me. And also like even to this day, there are some of the shelters that I'm still in contact with because they were such an integral part of rehabilitating my family and my life that. And I knew living in the shelter is like what we lacked, right? So one of the things that they typically do is they help women, depending on, our shelters are very different. And I think it also depends on. each case. So like, if you're in shelter because your partners literally stalking you, chances are, you're not going to be able to like get a job. There were some shelters that would like let the women get jobs. They would work locally so they could like actually do things. So one of the things that always set out to me is oftentimes they would take in donations, new clothing, new makeup. So that was like a long nose in my head. So, you know, I saw firsthand how those products, those things would be extremely detrimental to the survival of women who stayed in those shelters. And I remember as a child thinking like, wow, one day, I want to give back and I want to be the person making someone's life in a shelter a little bit better, even if it's just donating a blazer or don't you know what I mean? So those are things that I still actively do now as an adult because I remember like, wow, like seeing firsthand how even a beauty product could help that woman land an interview or help that woman just feel better for her next opportunity. Going to get a new driver's license picture, changing her name, right? Like just trying to get her life back. Little things like that. And I just saw how shelters and the people who donated to them and who contributed to them firsthand played an integral in helping women. And sometimes for children get back to like life after abuse or life after addiction or life after homelessness. So that was really cool. No, I wasn't doing makeup when I was in the shelters, but like as an adult or just like having makeup or having access to makeup. They wouldn't let me. Okay. They didn't let me. They didn't let me. What would your eyes line up like seeing? All the time. Oh my god. I lived for I lived for like I loved as young as like 10 like I was fascinated with makeup, but I wasn't wearing it. Yeah. So I like seeing the application part. And also one of the things one of my favorite things to do when we were in shelters is when we were allowed to like actually leave and go out. I used to go to like Barnes and Nobles. I don't even think they're open anymore. Do they? They are. I actually got Barnes and Nobles almost every day. Really? I take my daughters because they have like a I read to them. Yeah. But was it borders? I read borders? Yeah. I think borders. I forgot them. Borders and bars and nobles. Don't let you know where near our borders and bars are. I was obsessed with books. Yeah. And I used to read a lot when I was a kid, but like this was pre-YouTube obviously. So I would like we would be in these shelters. And I remember being like, Oh, Jackie, my mom would be like, we're going to Barnes and Nobles. I was like, yes. I was like the bit like if you told me we were going to Barnes and Nobles, you might as well have told me we was going to Disneyland. Because I was eating that up, but I would go straight to the beauty section because there's a beauty section in these bookstores. And I would sit there and I would read and memorize the makeup books that was reading. So I was like studying the application. And I wasn't wearing makeup at the time. Yeah. But I would be like so gagged. So gagged. I would read. I would memorize the techniques. Because some of these books they would have things like face charts and stuff. Yeah. And so I just I guess I just have like a really photographic memory. And I would just be sitting there taking notes and just eating it up, eating it up. And I would be in there for hours at times. Like three hours for I was just sitting in the book section with a book and like enjoying like having the best time ever. Eventually you get to college. Yeah. And then you don't you decide to drop out of college at a certain point. And you went a very unconventional path of a lot of beauty influencers. I would say. And you joined the army reserves. Yeah. I remember when you first shared this with me. I was like, I would have never guessed that that was your prior career. I know. I know. So talk me through that. You still got good grades. It sounds like because you got into a good school. Your parents want to become a doctor. They want me to become a pharmacist. A pharmacist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No. Actually I was failing every class in college. In college. But in high school. It was so bad to our like it was so bad. You know what I think? Okay. So I grew up really sheltered. I told you this. My parents were like really strict. So going from like high school where like everything is really regimented. You are and I went to public schools. So like you you know, you show up to school. You have this schedule outlined for you. And I was so used to like my parents always being on my back. And then I ended up going to college and living on campus. And then it dawned on me like, oh, like if I miss a class, like my parents aren't going to know, like I actually don't have to do this. Like, okay. So I just kind of didn't really do it. So I like wasn't attending classes. And so once school was on the line, once housing was on the line, I didn't want to be there in the first place. I was like, I'm just joined the army. I guess like that just seemed like the most logical. Like I don't know how you go from, I you know, I may not have like student housing. I don't love this career too. I'm going to join the army. So was it like you happen to walk by and see what it was. It just only it was the only no. I'll tell you how it happened. But at the time, it just seemed like the only guarantee bag. Like I was just like, I just need a bag and a place to live. Like I just need something. But to answer your question, like how did the thought even cross our mind? Yeah. So that was my ex boyfriend who ended up becoming my ex-husband. Okay. He joined the year before. And it just looked like, wow, like he gets to travel. Like he could separate to these. And it just seemed like I want that too. Like it just it just seemed like the most logical transition, I guess. Like so yeah, it wasn't that I just like happened to walk by recruiter. Like he was already in. And then I started dating him. And then I was like, oh, I think I should do it too. And were you still into fashion and beauty? Like was that was just always. Yes, absolutely. And I wore makeup and uniform. And I had my YouTube channel. And that was actually like, I would say probably one of the most what made it a little bit. I know it's a very first world problems. But it made the it can make the job a little bit more difficult in the military because the army, for example, is already very misogynistic. So there are still some people who just don't think women should serve women should wear a uniform. They don't feel any sense of pride of serving alongside women. It's actually very archaic and annoying. God forbid, you're like someone attractive. Your job is definitely going to be harder. And then God forbid on top of that, you wear makeup. Like they already don't take you serious. They already think you're a joke. So that sometimes made the job a bit more challenging. And yeah, so that that was a challenge in itself too. Yeah, before we get more into that, I would love to just sort of catch up the audience as to where you were in your relationship at this time. So your boyfriend who became your husband, he was the recruiter or he already went into. No, he he was already in. So like he that's why I got the idea. Okay. But he didn't like sway me one or another. He just yeah, he was just like hearing me vent about all of what was going on at the time. And he got you. Yeah, he just presented the idea. And then, but I don't think he was I don't think he thought I was going to take a serious and but I did. I know you get married very young as well. So were you ready in the army reserve when you got married? Yeah, I was. Okay. Yeah, I was. And I got divorced very young too. So it was only one year. Thank God. But it was like in and out. So yeah, that was just not oh my god. Yeah, I would not recommend getting married that young. Why did you decide to get married? So yeah, I think again, it felt like the sense of security that I needed. You know what I mean? Like I just thought this is what I need to do. Like and also another thing that sways the decision. This is why a lot of service members get married because I'm not sure if you're familiar with the whole idea like the duty station thing. So like let's say you're dating someone and they get assigned to like Tokyo and you really love this person, you get married. That's how you say together. So a lot of times service members they end up doing that very young, very prematurely based off of the fact that they just physically want to be together which isn't the smartest thing to do. So if you're married and your partner gets sent somewhere, then you get you're then financially provided for it. You can live with them. Yeah, so pretty much it. It kind of incentivizes people to do it when they otherwise wouldn't be as pressured, you know? Right. Yeah. And so at what point did you start to realize that this isn't a healthy relationship for me? Literally the day I think I got married like I knew the exact date like something happened at your wedding that you're just like it was like the days before I was just like this isn't right. Right. But I think I again I felt like I but I needed like secured any stability. Right. That was kind of more what I was leaning into at the time. Yeah. So you saw certain red flags like going into it, but you just felt like you were too committed to kind of back out. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah. You know and seeing some of the interviews you've done, I know you've talked openly about not being a healthy relationship and even it was an abusive relationship. At what point did you realize that you need to get out of this? This was a situation where I didn't realize how gone I was until like years after my marriage ended. So we didn't like it wasn't amicable like he just decided he was going to move on and you know it was really devastating at the time, but I just had to accept it. Looking back, I am glad that he did make that decision because I thought I was stuck. I thought I was just like what's already happened like this is what I can do now. But because I was so deep in that relationship, I didn't realize like how much I needed to. I didn't realize how much I lost myself in that. That was really it was probably like one of the darkest. No, it was the darkest days of my adulthood for sure. And going back to the combo we were having earlier about how the things you experienced as a kid, you either run towards or run away from growing up in a household where you also experienced, you know, your parents and their marriage with domestic violence. Did you kind of see that as maybe this is just how marriage works? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so it was hard to, I think it, you know what I think it is? I think it's hard to see practical ways of how to avoid those things. That's what I struggled with. Like, or you know, like you can have the education, but you can struggle with, but how does actually apply to my actual relationship? How does this apply to me? How do I put this into practice? Like it's like, I thought I knew the textbook definitions of like what abusive power dynamic and a relationship could look like, but I didn't know like, but like what are the actual signs? Like I had to educate myself more as an adult and learn what those things look like because I didn't realize, oh, this is a red flag. Like something would bother me, but I didn't realize that's an actual relationship red flag or it's a variation of a red flag if that makes sense. Right. I mean, having gone through what you've gone through is like a child and then in your first marriage, what is your advice for people in a relationship that might be experiencing some of those types of red flags, but might feel stuck and like not feeling like they can leave. I think the biggest takeaway that I want people to realize is most people don't understand like, why don't you just leave, why don't you just leave? It's truly, and I'm not just saying this, like it's truly not that simple. First and foremost, most people that are in an abusive relationship are prisoners in their mind first. So like you have to emotionally find the strength and the courage to get up and go. And most times when they've already gotten you down to that much control mentally and physically, you could literally open the door wide open and say go leave and you still want it. 'Cause it's like, I just don't know how to explain like it's just not that simple. It's really not that simple. Most times these relationships are riddled with like constant and I mean constant gaslighting. Like they never, everything to the problem. They never own up to things. And when you actually call out harmful behavior, they make you look like you're crazy. They make you look like you're not the supportive partner. I know I mentioned earlier how like, you know how I said, whenever a woman voices an opinion on something, we're nagging, right? So a lot of times, and I don't want to make this conversation to gendered 'cause like obviously women can be abusers to. But I'm just speaking from experience. But like I've, in my experience a lot of times when a man will do something in a relationship and a woman calls it out, it's like, oh, you're crazy or you're overreacting. It's like, no, you noticed that for a reason you're not crazy. - Right. - You know, and you should never feel like just for expressing your discomfort at something, you should never be dismissed for that. Imagine going through that with someone like everyday or several times a day. You'd never want to voice an opinion on anything. - Yeah. - It becomes bigger things like maybe now he's hitting you. You're not gonna, I couldn't even confront the fact that he left a box of cereal open, and I'm just using this as an example. But it's like, if I couldn't even get this person to own up to, like if there was a problem if I said, hey, you left this box of cereal open, why would I then make it a problem if you threw a shoe at my face, you know what I mean? Like the person makes everything about, like everything is an up-to-battle. That's not normal in a relationship. Confronting small things should not be like us breaking up with each other all the time. Because that is basically a person who's signaling to you, I don't ever want to be confronted about nothing period. That's a huge mess of red flag. Obvious things are like physical harm too. That's a big red flag. But one thing that I wish people understood is like it never starts that way. Like it really never, like it is oftentimes years of breaking you down emotionally, emotionally to where you become drained to fight back. Like you are like drained and defeated from fighting back. You become like numb to every single type of pain. - You know, as we talk about this, like all I can think about is Jackie today, right? Like who is so outspoken and like strong-minded, right? And I can't imagine you being in a relationship where you weren't being treated right, right? So at that time did you see yourself as someone that like really stood for what you believe in and like vocalize your feelings or was that just like a progression that kind of built over time as you started to find yourself in your confidence? - Yeah, I had to rebuild my confidence from the ground up for sure during that time because I didn't have it. It was non-existent. It was like beneath the surface of the earth. It was definitely a time where like I didn't have voice and whatever little voice I had I was not using 'cause I was just like exhausted, I was just tired. - And so I know you were saying that you were creating YouTube videos like still during this time. Like was that while you were still in college or? - I was in Hawaii at the time. - Okay. - So that was the first year of marriage. That was when I started. - So how do you decide I'm gonna turn on a camera and like record? - It wasn't even me, like it was my best friend at that time who did it who was just like, oh, you just show people how you do your makeup and I was just like, I don't know girl like, 'cause she knew I was like a makeup girl. And she knew I also loved watching YouTube. - Well, take me a step back 'cause like you've told me up until now that like you have, you had no access to makeup, right? Your parents didn't let you wear makeup. You probably couldn't afford it, I'm guessing. But one was the first time that you actually started wear your makeup, was that in college? - In college. - Okay. - So this is really bad. I would not recommend. But basically I would buy like, rash, I would buy like, rash and makeup on eBay. So what people would do is like, like let's say you have a Mac foundation, right? Put like 10 pumps in a sample bottle and sell that. And that's what I would buy. Like that was through the Mamika kit. It was like rash and makeup from eBay. Would not recommend that 'cause you don't know what else they could put in there. But yeah, that was basically like how I started exploring because I wanted to use like good stuff. And I was trying to find stuff that would actually show up on my skin tone. So a lot of the drugstore stuff back then was just not good. So I was just going to eBay and I was like, okay, let me see if I can buy. And like, I was like, oh, people sell samples. That's cool, I can afford it. You know, this is like $30 full size. But like a $5 sample, I can afford that. So that's kind of like how I got started. So this is me at like 19, 18, 19. - And how would you learn how to apply it? - Trial and error, just put it on. Literally, we didn't have YouTube. - YouTube wasn't there. - YouTube started in 2006. So technically when I was in college, it did exist. But I didn't really-- - Yeah, no one knew of it. - Yeah, like it was real, real, real, real, real small. But I didn't really start watching YouTube from makeup. 'Cause even though I probably knew about YouTube, I didn't start actually, people didn't start actually doing makeup on YouTube until like 2008, like two years later. - So you were just trial and error. - I was just watching and I'd be like, okay, I like what she did. I'm gonna try on my skin tone. - So she did in terms of YouTube or-- - Do whatever I was watching, yay, from random YouTuber. I'd be like, oh, that's pretty. And like I told you, I have a photographic memory. So it's like, okay, I can kinda see, I can figure out the rest. So that's what I would do. So then my best friend would be like, you should show people how you do that. And I'd be like, girl, nobody cares about that. Like I'm not doing that. And it was just like this constant back-up for like, I'm telling you, should you do this? - 'Cause you were getting compliments in your makeup. Like people would-- - I was definitely kind of one of the more, amongst my friends, I was definitely one of the more glam girls. I was the one that my friends would ask me to do their makeup. So it was real casual, real fun, real hobby. And then I was like, but I'm actually kinda good at it. So if someone asks me, maybe I'll just charge in $10 or something. I don't know, we'll see, we'll see. - To do their makeup in charge of that. - Oh, so were you doing people's makeup in college? - I mean, kind of, yeah, it became kind of a little-- It wasn't like I was like booked every week, it wasn't like a full-time gig. But it would be like occasionally whenever somebody did ask, like, you know, it could be like a little money-making opportunity. And then when I was in Hawaii, I was like obsessed with YouTube watching all these videos. But I had no interest on being on YouTube. But, you know, per the suggestion, eventually this girl just wore me out, my best friend. She was just like, just post, just do it. And it was just like, all right, fine. So then that's how I started. And honestly, one of the second motivating factors at that time was really like a lot of the loneliness. 'Cause, you know, I lived in Hawaii. So I was away from my family. I was away from my friends. And I kinda didn't really have much else to do. So it was like, why not? - So you turn on what a webcam, like what existed back then? - Literally a cam quarter, like single, single eye cam quarter. And yeah, it was, my first videos weren't even videos. They were like picture slideshows. They were pictorials. So this was kind of a popular thing back then where, because I wasn't like really comfortable being on a video, I instead would do like, let's say for example, I wanted to do an eye tutorial. I would do one step, take a picture of it, and like write the instructions on screen. And the next slide would be like the net, like add the colors to the crease. And I would add that product and then take a picture of it. And then show the instructions on the screen. And the next slide. So it would be like a buildup, a progression throughout the entire look. - Yeah. - And so you upload your first video to to get any views or? - I mean, she, I remember after her basically for weeks telling me or months being like, join YouTube, join YouTube, I finally did this video. And I sent it to her and I was like, what do you think? And she goes, if I'm watching a YouTube video, why would I want to read? And I was like, I guess you have a point there, like, I was like, okay, so you think I should really be on video. She was like, yeah, it's running your video. So I was like, all right, fine, we're gonna have to do this the hard way. So yeah, like the first two or three videos were those pictorials, but it wasn't until I started talking and like explaining makeup, that was when people started paying attention. - And by the time that that term was ending, was your YouTube becoming like, you saw it as like a full-time career or? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. - Okay. - Because did you realize that this is gonna be my career? - So it was like a week before New Year's Eve, and this was a time period where the beauty industry was just chaotic. Like people were doing stunts to go viral. Like it was crazy. Like people were competing for who could have their craziest makeup look, who could wear the longest pair of lashes. Like there was just a lot of clickbait in the beauty world. - How do you contour your feet? - Yeah, like it was just too much. And so I was like, I feel like I should just do a video like making fun of it. Like I just want to talk crap for once. Like I just want to do something funny and I want to just express how I really feel 'cause what the heck is going on? So it was like a week before New Year's Eve, and I basically was like, okay, go on into the New Year. This is kind of how I frame the video. I was like, going into the New Year, we were leaving all of this foolery in 2014, okay? Like it was called Trends Were Ditching in 2015. Basically it was the name of the video. And so I made this video and I was like, tell 'em myself, should I do this? Should I not do this? Like literally as I'm filming the video, I was like, this is so stupid. Like this isn't even funny. Like no one's gonna watch this. Like I just thought it was the stupidest thing ever. But at that time I was like, well, already thinking, this might be the last run for me on YouTube. So I might as well just, just, what do you have to lose? Like you already think you're already one foot in and one foot out. So you might as well just give it one last hurrah, whatever you want to call it. So I upload this video and within 24 hours, the first time I opened the comments. Oh, first of all, I noticed it had like 60,000 views. I was shook. I was immediately scared because my knee-jerk reaction was, did I get canceled? Like are they in the comments, cussing me out? Like I was scared and I'm thinking, oh my God, like did I just ruin my reputation? Like did I piss everyone off? Are they cussing me out in the comments? I was shook and then I go to the comments and I'm like, oh, they're like, thank God. - And it was positive. Like, and people loved it. - It felt like most of the comments are being like, thank God, we're addressing the obvious. And yeah, like even at the 60K views or whatever it was in that first 24 hours, it still didn't click for me that this was going to be a viral video. Like it still didn't click for me until the following day, it was like 120th and I was like, it was like double of views. And then I was like, whoa, this is kind of a lot. Then by the third day, it was really like 500,000 and then also news outlets started picking it up. So it was being shared on like, y'all news. And like, yeah, it was like getting press. And then I was shook. Like it ended up like all of her Facebook. - And that's your first time experience in like fame, right, like viral attention, right? - Yeah, like that, yeah, that quickly, yes. - And did you just know that all right, well, more views equal success. So if I could do this once and that means I could do it again. And I want to do this like with my life. Like I can succeed in this space now. - When that video went viral, one of the good things is instead of becoming like a one hit wonder, I guess you can call it where people just interact and engage with that video and then drop off the face of the earth and never come back. What ended up happening is after that video hit its first like million views in like five days, that's when I was like, oh, I'm really going viral now. - Yeah, yeah. - But all of my other old content started going viral too. So they were like binge watching my channel. And so that had taken place for weeks. And then I was like, oh, I think I like just unlocked. Like I think this is exact, like I just proved to myself like all I had to do was be myself. And now people are enjoying the fruits of all the labor that I had done up until this point. So I was like, there's no turning back now. I absolutely am going to keep pursuing this for sure. - So as you're starting to go viral, your subscribers are growing, you're starting to work with more brands. Like what happens next? - Yeah, it was around 2017 when I started working with the manager and having an agent. And in that time frame, that was when I started, especially when I got representation. That was when I started to get huge opportunities. They got progressively bigger of a time. But I started to get brand deals, brand campaigns. And it was like, before then it was like I was invisible. And then all of a sudden, once I got a manager, the door was just busted wide open, which is good. 'Cause that's not always the case for some creators. - Yeah, and what were some of those opportunities that you got? - Early, early, early opportunities were things like working with two-faced. I remember the first time, actually funny enough, I started working with them after I criticized them because I tried their foundation. And this was before the Born This Way campaign that I did where I worked on their foundation shader. And just I don't know if you remember that opportunity that I got years down the line. But basically I had tried their foundation. And I was just basically saying, this is a note for me, it doesn't work. - But I don't know if it was in the same video, but I was like, but I love their mascara. So they saw the video and they were like, oh, you love a mascara? We would love to have it in the campaign. And it was crazy because the opportunities that I've had working with them came from the heels of me actually criticizing them too. So it was like, it was nice that they didn't like-- That's an example of a brand who turned criticism into an opportunity-- - Yeah, for sure, for sure. - And it worked out well for them too. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because then later on about a year, I think it was the following year later, they actually asked me to personally help them expand the shade ranges of that actual foundation. So that was technically my first size, my first collab. And so that was dope because that was really meaningful. I actually got to help a brand expand their foundation shades. - That was really cool. - It was that like the biggest feeling of success for you. 'Cause obviously, you struggled for a long time. So the financial success must have been a big part. But when you saw that your work was actually creating, an impact to get brands to rethink their products and be more inclusive, was that the best feeling? - Absolutely. And then when I saw, like when they showed us the reports, the numbers, like how much people supported that product, I was like, oh, that is crazy. That was when it was like tangible. That was when it was real. That was when it was like, people actually are listening to my voice. - Yeah. - And also, you feel like people feel seen. That's amazing. - Did you know right away that your community was like a lot of black women? - I mean, I got the gist because I'm super active in the comments. And obviously, I interact with people every day. I feel like that's what makes a part of doing this job so fun is talking to real people. So I had a feeling, but you know what was also, some of those also really interesting to me and I didn't expect was like also getting comments over time, or getting comments from people who were like, darker skin Asians being like, I've never really felt accepted in my community. And you know, thank you for giving me language to feel seen and feel accepted. So like that, that was really cool too. 'Cause it was like wow, this conversation is bigger than just black women. - Yeah, even in Indian culture for instance, like you have every range of complexity. - Exactly. Light skin to very dark skin. So I could definitely relate to what you're saying. So at what point did you decide that you're gonna start your own brand? - So it started really kind of as an idea where I told Dennis I want to start my own line of candles. But it was more like passion project. Like I was just thinking very small. And that was back in like 2018, 2017. So we started like talking to manufacturers. We started asking questions and testing samples. And I was also at that time working on another project that I was prioritizing more of. So again, forever mood, it didn't have a name then, but like that project was like kind of on the sidelines if that makes sense. But as early as like yeah, like 2018 was when we first started talking about it. And the end goal was even though it started as candles, the end goal was like I really wanted to have perfume. That was like my number one. That was like where my soul really was. It was having my own fragrance. - Yeah. - So COVID happened. And then it was really Dennis being like, we're spending so much time at home and you still love fragrance. And most of your day to day consists of you interacting with candles still. And you know, it was kind of his idea, his motivation to be like, we should revisit this. Like we're at home. Like we can kind of really, you know, test the waters now more than ever. So I was like, I don't know what you think we should. Like I was really hesitant, really timid about it. And no, he really encouraged us. And literally just from us talking about it and him putting together a business plan, him putting together what it would look like, like what it would financially require. That's when it felt like actually real. 'Cause at first I was just like, I mean, I was just saying it for funsies. I don't know how to actually do it. Like we all as creatives, we all have tons of ideas. Like there's so many things I want to do. But I usually won't actually do something until it feels tangible. So it feels like, okay, a plan is in place. And that was easy for him. So he's just like, okay, well, you've been saying you want to do it. And we've already met with manufacturers. We already have like relationships in place to start. And so this is what we require. Let's do it. And so I was like, okay, that's what we did. - And I've seen the firsthand success. I mean, from when you launch your candles, those sold out everywhere to like your perfumes going into Sephora and those selling out immediately, where do you see the future of your brand? I love fragrance in general. Like I just see how it makes people feel, see how, and that's why the brand name exists forever mood, like forever mood, forever vibe. It fragrances truly given 10-year-old Jackie so much confidence that I didn't even know that I had until I got older and I started to realize, like yeah, I mean, I'd have a lot of money, but I can afford a fragrance. Yeah, I can't afford Chanel, but I can afford Chanel number five. Like, I know what that feels like, and I want to continue to make other people feel like that, as the brand grows and expands. And I want to continue to expand in the fragrance category, because we love fragrance so much. So, hint hint, I don't want to say too much, but yeah, now that we, now that we have our fine fragrances, so we started with candles in 2020, and then we were also working on perfume at that time, but we didn't actually launch the perfume until 2024. And I don't even want people to think about Cologne and perfume, no, it's fragrance. Yeah, it's fragrance. If you like it, and it's a Cologne in your woman, wear it. I see. If you like it, and it's a perfume in your man, who cares where it? Yeah. Like okay, the bottle is clean. We bring it inclusivity to fragrance. Yeah, I mean, sort of the same way that I've been able to do this with makeup, fragrance is just like my comfort and my soft spot. And like, I feel like fragrance should be universal. Yeah. And also, one of the things that I did with makeup I mentioned is that I wanted the person, the individual, the consumer, to be able to go to a makeup counter and be like, no, Jackie taught me this. This is what I want to buy. Like never let someone tell you what you're supposed to be or what you're supposed to look like. Like you decide that for yourself, and you have the education to find your own shade, find what you like, find what makes you feel beautiful. And I wanted to do the same thing with perfume because I love fragrance, but it's intimidating for a lot of people. People, a lot of people don't even know where to start. Some people don't know the difference between hormones and florals. Like they genuinely don't know. And so in our content on the brand page and on my personal page, I like talking about what those differences are. So people know at least where to start. And what to ask where how to advocate for themselves when they go to like a fragrance counter. So I want people to have their relationship with fragrance that I have learned to have since I was a child. I want them to feel like, show me your your your row sense. Like I've grown to love rows. Show me what they are because I just I like when people can advocate and offer themselves in any industry period. What I find so fascinating is like when you were starting out and went into a makeup store for one of the first times and felt like there weren't products there for you. There wasn't shade range. Now the world has changed so much where there's a big diversity of products when you go inside of a cosmetic store. You did that within the cosmetics industry and now you're doing that within the fragrance industry. I think it's so amazing and just goes to show by being your authentic self by saying the things that you actually believe how much of a difference it can make not in only your own life, but in the entire world. Yeah. So as we wrap up, I just want to ask like two questions. So one, I love how highly you speak of Dennis. And if someone who knows in first hand, and Dennis being one of my best friends, I agree with everything and more that you've said. But you know, a lot of people when they are in a not so healthy relationship or abusive relationship, there is this sort of pattern where they kind of stay in those types of relationships. And it's given where your first marriage was to now you're with someone who seems like so supportive in helping you accomplish all of your goals. Was that sort of the luck of the draw or how did you sort of break that curse? Did you do something different for those? Oh, drastic. Yeah. That's actually a really good question because yeah, I personally had to figure out why and how was I repeating the cycles with the relationships that I got into when I was really young because you would think, okay, you see this dynamic in your childhood, you're upbringing. How did you walk right into it again? And I honestly, I noticed that I or this was just what I realized. I felt like I needed to give myself the chance to experience at least some part of my 20s. No attachments to any man. Like I think I was too, I don't know if the right word is like boy craze, but I think I was like too enamored with this idea of like having some sense of stability with a man or a guy. Like that was what I thought I was supposed to do. So once I started to learn to get my own financial independence, to get my own personal independence, I feel like I really got to know myself and I got to learn in singlehood, I got to learn what I like about men in general and what I dislike about men. So I became more vocal, whereas before I thought, okay, when you get with someone, you just tolerate whatever they give you. And it's like, you have free will, you can walk away, you can tell someone, no, like you don't have to just put up just because you're with them. It doesn't work that way. Like relationships are not finite. When you get with someone, it's not the rest of the, it's not the one person you're committed to. So that was probably with the most valuable, I would say, those single years. And I wasn't even making a lot of money, but I remember the first time I went on a solo trip, I was like, whatever this is, I want to do more of it. And actually, that's why me and Dennis got engaged in Santorini because one of the first solo trips that I went to was Santorini. And it was like one of the least expensive places that I could afford to travel to. And so I made it a point when I was single, like every other year to like go to Santorini. So then getting engaged there was like, wow, it's like closing a chapter because like, this is like where I really kind of found myself. And I just, I don't know, I just learned to love being on my own. Like that made me really develop. Like that's where I really developed my character was those years of singlehood. I love that. And last question, you know, from someone who's gone from like shelters to now shattering sales records at Sephora, you know, for the people listening, I'm sure there's people that are in their life where things are not going so great, right? They're questioning if they're ever going to be able to make it in life. Their dreams haven't worked out. Maybe they are at that low where they're in a shelter or living in a car or barely able to afford rent to their apartment. What is your advice for that person and how to get through those tough times? I think I, I can just talk about what drew inspiration from me at my lowest. I mean, it sounds kind of messed up, but I just would tell myself, probably can't get any worse in this. So, yes. Like it was just like a dark humor way of looking at it at the time. It's like, well, the semester, but like, what's the worst that can happen after this? Like I'm already at the lowest. And when you experience that kind of like loneliness, isolation, depression, like all of the above, you understand firsthand, like I never want to go back to that. Use that as your motivating force. Honestly, I don't even, I'm not even like a big fan of being motivated like by revenge. Like in the beginning, I think I wanted to like prove to like X's and old family members. Like I've made it like, you know, you kick me when I was down and I've made something myself, but I don't even think that's worth it because okay, after you prove this to them, then what, like then what motivates you? Right, right, right. I think that's like a temporary ego boost, but it's not a long-term strategy to keep fueling you. Even if the following day is still crappy, but like 5% less crappy, it's still considered up, you know, it's still considered an upward, even if it's a very slow climb. But for some of us, that's what success is. It's a slow climb and every day you have to wake up and truly decide. Like I don't want to go back to where I came from or I don't want to be miserable. I don't want to be depressed anymore and do something, even if it's something minor, do something to put that into practice.