Hoe bouw je sterke lokale teams volgens de Hervormingsagenda Jeugd?

(upbeat music) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (upbeat music) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) . (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (laughs) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Because a lot of problems arise because of what is happening in society. So you don't just focus on a small group in the neighborhood? Yes, not only on individual aid companies. And that also asks a bit different from our teams. So that's why the attention to stable local teams is a policy that takes that attention very seriously. And there are all kinds of people in those teams. That's not a specific profile or something. No, that could be social sciences, but also social workers. That could be people who have much understanding of school problems. What I think is a recurring perspective that is very important within the local teams is that social perspective. So you look at it broadly, not only that someone has a problem with their behaviour, not only that perspective, but also how does that person live? So how does it work at school? And we also talked about social distancing work. How does this differ? Yes, that's a good question. It's very much linked together, I think. But social distancing work, here we have it specifically about the role of the local teams. They also have a role in social distancing work. And social distancing work, I also see, is a bit wider. Because that is also about the role of residents themselves, the role of the school. Yes, and that is very much linked together. Yes, and what should there be in a local team anyway? Because you said that there can be all kinds of people. Is that dependent on where such a team is active? Or are you always active in any case? Well, in any case, it is always important that a team has the qualities to offer themselves. A low-prone support, to offer a lot of support, and even where you may have sometimes indicated normally. Help to put it in such a way that it can also be found in the local teams. So you need that expertise. But on the other hand, on the other hand, you may also be more active in the neighborhoods. So maybe also knowledge about building work and how you are in school. So yes, that depends a lot on how a neighborhood is organized. What are the players, what are the problems, what are the strengths? Yes, if I may say it right, the term "staff local teams" also comes from a guideline where it is worked on from the VNG. Where in the past there were a thousand flowers, that is now a kind of basis, which a staff local team must be able to do in any case. And that there is also a little more loss of the local and the neighborhood color. But in any case, the clarity is that what do you have to do as a neighborhood team in any case, or as a local team in any case. Yes, and what are the basic ingredients? How should I form that? The most important thing is that, from my perspective, that young families who need it can simply get guidance. That they are provided with a guide and that there is full connection. And help is being changed from the social basis, whether it is an initial youth group, if there is something serious in hand. And that it is becoming more and more common network around the family. Yes, that there is a kind of, anyway, a basis where everyone has access to. And that you can scale up and more and more and more, sort of, scale up when it is necessary. But from that basis, and not always track down something new, or, yes, okay. Thank you for that invitation, Herm. And we will of course come up with how you did that, especially in Amersfoort. And so far we have also been a little poll. In how far the development of a local team has progressed in good partnership with your community and the local team itself. Because that is of interest. What did you find in the community a bit? Yes, yes, and it must be said that sometimes the local team, as you say, is also part of the community. But you know, maybe it is also a good partnership between the practical and the policy people. And yes, we thought that, yes, well, that actually comes out when you ask how far it has been, the partnership. That, yes, that for the most people, 44% says that it has been a limited measure. And 30% says, in average terms, yes, you can also see that it is still a win-win situation. It happens too often that there are two separate worlds. And I think that if you make the development as a local team, then it is a development that really has to go on together. And also that if you are at the policy level, if you know very well, listen very well to what is needed from the field to make that movement. Also give some professionals what I need to play that other role in the field. Yes, yes, yes, because it is a different approach than how it was before. Yes, you still want to respond, Liesbeth. Yes, I think it's very nice that you give that to us. Because also in the time that we are now working on it, we have also discovered that it is very important to have a partnership with each other at the same time. And that does not happen independently, between policy and implementation, but also between municipalities and network partners. It is also not always independent. And we have made a huge contribution over the past few years to show that we do it together. We are equal, we are giving up on ourselves. Only then, I think, will we have a chance to really set a good strong local team in a neighborhood. And not only on the side of the employer, to decide what to do, because we do this together, because it is also for our youth. And the system is already sustainable. So I think it is super nice that this also comes from the polls. In any case, there is still a lot of work to do, but I think it is worth a race for success. Yes, that is already a bit in that question. Well, let's go to Herm. Yes, very little is there, of course. Let's start with you. You are now working for the Arnhem community, where you are aiming to accelerate the transformation to the strong local teams, as I understand it. Yes, I always think it is complicated to transform. You have to do it quickly. Yes, maybe in Arnhem it has been a little longer than in other municipalities, and it has to be accelerated there. But the transformation also takes time. So I try to bring a little more cohesion, because how it is spoken. You will only go faster, but you will come together further. And that is necessary here, especially if you work with a lot of parties, where you don't always have a message about it. Yes, if I look at it from the Arnhem, of course, how it went in Amersfoort, then Herm has picked that up well. That is also possible here. How have you built up the social neighborhood teams there? Yes, I am not a care professional or a helper. And most policy makers are not. So what you just said is incredibly important, and I also think that you have to listen very well to the people who understand it. And that the policy makers offer the circumstances where the care professionals can do their job well. And you have a very large responsibility as a policy maker, as a financier, as an employer, and it is very good to keep those roles from each other. To see what you have to do so that the professional can do their job. We did that in Amersfoort in 2013. I started with a number of pilots to see if we then get the responsibility in decentralization. How do you give that form? And is it then working together with social teams to work or local teams or five teams? And how does that work? So we also have pilots who have succeeded, others have succeeded. And based on that, we are going to continue. But I also believe that if you don't know how it works, you can't send it well either. So we are going to do it ourselves for the first two years. So we hired professionals and we made a department within the community, in which the care teams were formed. The Amersfoort has nine care teams with nine care teams. And when we knew a little bit how it worked and what the leadership and agency principles were, we went into a very close relationship with the community. And that was the best solution for us. Oh, so you did put that pet on the same thing. And how was that? Well, I didn't do that myself. My colleague did the operational support. Also because what I just said, you have to make a distinction between the role of an employer who wants something within a policy framework and someone who takes that task and also sends it to you. And when you mix that kind of role, you can still see that in the Netherlands there is also a recipe for it to go wrong. So cleanliness in roles and also respect for each role is incredibly important. I want to bring you to success when it comes to transforming, but to put something into it at all. Yes, where you just noticed that you have to see each other in different roles as equal partners. Certainly, my optics should not be hierarchical, but different roles and different tasks. On the other hand, I still notice that I have two roles in the afternoon, because I work for the municipalities. That is only the employer, but I also talk about the leading teams in the municipalities, about the WMO and the youth teams and the youth experts. So in that sense I am also an employer of a large part of the local team, together with the partners in the neighbourhood. And I also see that as my equal partner as an employer. Exactly. And is this also a mix of roles that you see a lot, or is this just different again? No, that does have a risk in itself, only if you get a new job, that you have to fill in from two perspectives. So it can work, apparently, but you also have other parties, such as work and income. From the municipality it is done the social basis, which is often in a welfare institution. The relationship with the household, the relationship with the adults, the relationship with the education. So it is quite a lot of work if you and all those relationships have to manage what I think is a task for the municipalities. And at the same time, you also have to manage the responsibility. And maybe there is also a relationship with the scope of a municipality, for example. Yes, that can also be said that in a larger municipality, it is easier to pull together, and that you can easily put the pets in a smaller municipality. Yes, I have a question, because you started with teams in your own municipalities, and that is quite a change. How do you determine what expertise you get from that, because you do not have that in the municipalities themselves, I can imagine. You mean the people who came into the municipalities at the end of the day? Yes, we have then looked at which parties, which care professionals, and actually we have talked very easily about care, but it is often not care, it is often support or guidance or support for care, that kind of thing. So it is not medical care that the municipalities offer, but we have looked at what kind of people are now working with the residents in the city. And we have those organizations, and we have those organizations, when employees have been hired via an in-house contract or dedication. And after a period of time, after two years, we have simply given the opportunity to get to that new place, and most of the people have done that. And what is the weigh-in that you then made to say, "Well, what tasks do we give those teams?" No, it was also a national discussion at the time, it was also a bit of a consensus in a number of municipalities, what would have to happen. We then spoke very seriously about the problems that we saw in the practice, that families had 20 help units, so we then had one family, one plan, one director. And that was actually the role of the department team, and if you then spit that out, then you actually have three main tasks, that is, a bill. I call it, at least, calmness and regularity in the family, it is a bit of the basis. And actually, it is not as a team manager, but also mainly helping the parents, or the family, to lead the department again. It also offers self-explanation as a team manager, so really helping the family to get things together. And the third is to organize full-time help, and that is then also a bureaucratic process where the help is provided. Yes, and you mentioned it just now, the first two years we experienced it ourselves, when we put up a foundation, very close to the municipalities. How did that go? How did it go from that moment on? What we thought about very well, because we actually give the foundation, the portfolio of the municipalities, and then a lot of money goes around, so how do you organize that? Are you going to put that down and do you believe that that will work? Or do you think that from the partnership, do you think that is a cheap production? So we have said, the responsibility for the content of the care is in the foundation itself, if it is about caring for the full-time care. We made a set of agreements that we put up together. We had a term for it as a traffic regulation, and the agreement is in my management team. As in the management team of the director of the district teams, the instructions were set, so they have a kind of cheap production. We are going to work together. Also from the thoughts of a strong local team is one thing, but it also has to be able to function very well with the social basis. The welfare organization can work very well with work and income, because the family is not going to, you have to get out of the columns. But the reason that municipalities are involved with this is that we are very close to the inhabitants, we have to ensure that those things that we have in our influence also organize together. Yes, and of course, if you have to scale up again, if it really goes towards care or ... Yes, and in the beginning, I saw that we thought very much of the ketens, so we had it as a term to scale up and to scale up. So if we were responsible, we would scale up to the social basis. If it was difficult, we would scale up to the influential provider or business manager. And we have always admitted that we actually, especially in the complex cases, that that is not the right way of working, but that you have to operate in and out as professionals around the inhabitants, around the family. And so you have to be aware that the municipality of Medewerk has already seen it, and at the same time, if someone is suddenly put in a connection with a neighborhood where he can sometimes go, or if a complicated problem is played in the family, a specialist is added. But then you will operate more organically, and that asks a bit about the local team, but also about the municipality, that you also have to give all those organizations the assignment that has been assigned to each other. And that is also something that goes wrong a lot in the country, that it is either given an unscrupulous assignment, or incomplete, or not assigned to each other. And was there a moment that you thought, maybe an example too, of yes, now it actually works a bit like we had it in mind, or is it so organic that you can hardly resist it? No, what I found a very nice moment was that at some point we have quite a lot of stories about ministries, other municipalities, and the first time that I, that was when I was the deputy director of the Wijkteams, heard a story, where he said, these are the leading principles, how do we want to deal with our residents in this municipality, they are set up with us together, and they are also our leading principles, and that is already being received by someone from the welfare institution. And then I thought, hey, now we are on the right path, we really work as a unit around the residents of the same thoughts, and in which you can easily talk to each other if something goes wrong, or describe tasks or something else. That is of course also the ambition for you then, Lisbeth, you started last year in Dijkenwaard with the program "Sterke Lokale Teams", that came before the division actually. And also the reformer agenda youth, who you would like to keep, and your goal is to get a better view of what is going on in the Wijkteams now. And how important those teams are, and that was painful, clear last month when there was an explosion in Heuregoaard. Actually, there was an apartment complex, why was that such a painful, clear moment? Well, the investigation is still going on, so I can't always say much about that, but what has happened is that there was an explosion in a flat building, and therefore the building has been completely renovated, and therefore the residents of the 660 apartments still cannot return. And a part of the residents probably can no longer return to the apartment complex for a long time. But what we see now is that we have started directly with a "Sterke Lokale Team" to facilitate the assistance and support of these residents. So actually, from a test point of view, we are doing the same in the starting blocks. And what we also notice is that, despite the fact that there is still a large repression of this explosion, that we have a short line with the housing building association, but also with the welfare institution and with the younger work, for example. Therefore, the people who have been duplicated can offer the right support, but they also have a firm face, but we can also quickly notice changes. Much faster, so that we can first walk through all the steps in our own city hall to see what has to happen. So we are working from week to week with a "Sterke Lokale Team" together to help these people. And that is what I also hear back as positive, because we can quickly change that. And that is of course very beautiful, and that is in response to what has happened. While, of course, one of the, yes, you may want to say it yourself, you actually want to be right. Do you want to be in front of that? Yes, yes, look, and I don't know if we could prevent this. Because there are people everywhere, wild growth, explosions, and yes, the research is still running. But yes, that is also really my dream, to have even more knowledge of what lives in the different villages and villages in Dijkenwaard. And how can we now sit much closer to society with our partners, who also have welfare institutions, the younger workers, the sports associations. Yes, they are really more than the community sometimes in the face of society. So that we can also see, well, there may be a lot, there is unrest at a place, or there are young people who do not feel well. Let's look at that together, so that we can also be able to continue in time, if there is an intensive need for help, or if there are social issues, yes, you have to know that. But you just mentioned it already, you could change it up so quickly, because there was already a basis for that. You are actually in the development phase, can you say something about that? Yes, we are now actually starting this month with the operationalisation of a number of development stages. Actually, that is the pre-phase of a definitive local team, so that should eventually also get a different name, but we will call it that. Yes, we have been working there for another half a year, in the planning process, especially from our policy department, from the board. And the last month, my operational team was also involved, together with the strategic partners in the village. So we had already laid a foundation, but yes, that is still very new, so we are also full on each other now, as we speak, to discover what it means for a professional, to work in such a strong local team. What does that mean for the activities that you normally do at the municipality, or perhaps with network partners? And how are you going to do that together with each other? And that is quite an exciting transition. Yes, certainly. And certainly if you then say a transition to a transition, because you are joined together. So that's something to get a little bit of zoom in there again. And then you also have to carry out that. So that's complicated. But maybe if you listen here, Herm, do you recognize things from the early phase in Amesvoort, or maybe from what you are now doing in Arnhem? No, I can certainly recognize it from the earlier phases. You also have a lot of different kinds of teams, haven't you stayed quiet yet? So in Amesvoort we have chosen from 0 to 100, but you also have municipalities where there is a lot of prosperity, and we have teams for parents, and for youth and families. So there are all kinds of different forms. We then have it from 0 to 100, and from the beginning, from the people who do this work, you have to learn a lot. And then you can fully implement them in the assignment with direct client contact. And we didn't do that very consciously, but gave time to learn together. So that there is in-productivity, that is a terrible term, but not directly in time to discuss with each other about this is the situation and what is the best solution for it. We have also deliberately chosen to do the assignment with two employees. It is now a bit of a step off, but in some situations, but also to look at, sometimes you have the perspective of a young man, sometimes you have the parents, sometimes you have parents who make a rush, that there is also some time available to look into that. Well, if I then try to walk with them sometimes, then the problems are solved together, a plan is made, and the plan will always be discussed in a team to see if this is the best solution for this situation. And then you sit for an hour at a lecture, and then I was always under the impression of the incredibly wide range of questions that people all have to know. At one point it was about a child with a lot of problems, in other words, about an elderly person who was suffering from it, and what does that mean? We have a question from family members about a PGB to support those elderly there, then it went again about something simple in the welfare policy, so safety often plays an important role. So it went all the way up, and how that profession is talked about, and also how it was looked at, that not everything is possible, because I think we as an amateur or a policy maker are also easy. But these are also the people who say, you have to say to a family, you have to learn to live with it, because this is part of life. And here you can't do any profession in the government, but you just have to organize it in your own network. Yes, carrying out is also a term that has often come across in this context. Using policy makers or police is very easy, but you will only be a professional who often gets less paid, who then has to say that to such a family or to such an elderly person. So I am always very impressed by what I see there. A little bit back to you Lisbeth, what are the most important lessons that you have learned so far, also a bit inspiring on what Herma just said. What can there be now, why is that acceleration possible? Well, you can see that the professionals, and I sometimes have that myself, are sometimes just a bit cold water-freeze to put those steps forward, because there is still such a mountain work. And when I go pioneering in such a development garden, who makes sure that I am covered, if I am involved in that and with such a crisis, then you also see that there are a lot of colleagues who support me, who can pick up the work, we do it together, you learn to know the people. And because of that, you also see that it is even easier to put that step to such a strong local team. In addition, I also think that listening to the professionals in the execution, they have to do the work, what Herma just said, and I think you have a lot of time there and have to invest to listen to what they need to be able to execute my work well. What do they expect from the policy, from the leadership, from the partners, the worries that sometimes also live from having, for example, it is quite exciting. Especially if you first had a role in the government, if you had to provide yourself with light help, and then come up with practical examples, but also, well, with each other as an organization, that it is okay to make mistakes, to learn from it, and also to give the professionals themselves a big role. That's what I'm trying to do now in those development cities, to discover what works and what doesn't, so that we can also contribute as leaders. The planning industry is sometimes beautiful on paper, but it has to work. And then you have the practice. Yes, exactly, and Herm, you just mentioned that you also did something you didn't want to do at first, or that you failed. Yes, and that's not bad at all, because that's part of your security, it's part of the transformation that you sometimes try things. It's said that it's not bad, but people still think it's annoying when things go wrong. But you don't. What went wrong? Well, one of the things that went wrong with us is, for example, a data leak, so that data from people coming out, that's also something that costs a lot of time and energy. But what you also lead to, and you also learn from it, but the most important thing, as a leader and a leader, is that you try to avoid mistakes. But if you close everything, you can't transform. So I think that's the most important thing, that if something happens, then you can talk to each other about having something to learn from. But the most important thing is that you want to work with each other and that this will also be part of your life, that it should be done. And then I'm happy that we're not shirrers with the people in our hands, but that's the other story. Yes, data leaks are also found, because trust is of course extremely important in your work, so yes, but you learn from it in any case. And all those lessons, and your E-tools are also places where those lessons are collected. Yes, certainly, yes, we follow this development enormously, at least we are connected with a lot of teams. We are also attached to the support line that has been organized by the VNG for communities that want to make this development. Yes, I hear you are very interested in that, and I also think that actually a few things, I find it very nice to see, but I think that learning the attention, I think it's so nice that you call it that. Because that's not so self-sufficient, if you often talk to the municipalities as a formal assignment, and then take a team as a formal assignment, then it also often goes about, well, how much track do you have, how much the village is being helped by the youth, how much it has cost, how long the waiting list is. So of course those are very important data about what you have. Yes, measurable results. But it's also about how to make sure that you are taught in your organization, how to make sure that you can vote with partner organizations when you are going against them, so that you also look for each other. Yes, that's also very nice what you mentioned Lisbeth, I think that it's just pressure and that you also have cold water mills to dive into, that's really the honest story, of course. Okay, we're going to do this. Yes, and also that you also play an important role as an organization, but also at the college, despite what we did with each other, you also talked about that, and Raffijnjaar. What is on the front page, for the one is a little bigger than for the other, and Herr Vormers' agenda is also just a task, we will let it be. But we also made extra resources for that professional, to be able to make that movement forward, so that we can pick up the work that may have left behind, so that there is space for investment and skills, or in the breakthrough method and so on. And that is also so realized, that the professionals also give each other that space, then we just have to organize it, because the costs are going out for the bottom, and that gives them the trust, and that such a crisis proves that only once again. Yes, let's listen to another policy worker, who anonymously tells where he comes from. Hello, with our district team, family workers are used to walking along with the individual family, and who are able to lead them well and to see if and what care is needed. From the development of stable local teams, more collective and preventive work is expected from the district team. This is also a question of professionals, for example, to do construction work in the district, but how can we as policy makers and professionals help with this changing role? Yes, how can professionals help with this changing role, and why do they actually have to take the time to do it? Ideas, first of all the insights? Yes, I think this is a very recognizable story, and what also creates care for professionals, you just talked about it briefly, something else has been asked about me, how am I going to do that? And that is also very complicated, and I think that where it all starts, is to show respect, to see what we actually do for it, what is our vision, where is our shared intention? What I find very irritating is that we get as municipalities just idiotic tasks of the district, for example, helping youth to offer less money. So actually it is a task, with the winners, that you do not have to carry out all those tasks, with no good law, unnecessary means. We are quite harsh about this with the district, but I think as a municipality you also have to ensure that you give good tasks to your implementation, and that this is also real. So what we just talked about, if you have to change, then you have to learn, then you also have to have some time for it, you can't say that to the experienced employees, let's work a little harder, because they already do that. So you either have to say that I accept a waiting list, which I think is very bad for municipalities, just like a home guard has a waiting list, so I think it should always be accessible. So then you have to, or a question like, can I organize it smarter? So the question is, do you also have to let a district team work on it, or is that really a different subject that you put down at a welfare organization? Or do you have to think about something that you have done with you, while giving extra money to an organization to make that sacrifice? Yes, but the assignment and the cards we have done within the assignment must be real, and you can save it quite often, but then you also have to say that the organization doesn't have to do certain things. And that honest conversation, based on equality, you said very nicely, but from different perspectives, if you don't do that, then it's a recipe for misery. Yes, because you actually don't have the basis for where they are on board, and you can't do that at all. And I don't think you do that alone, as a local team member, you also have the other party in the field who needs to see what role every party plays in what we are doing here. So you also have the welfare organization, the social foundation, the home guards, you all need it. Yes, I agree with what you said. I think that building up, welfare work, you have to ask yourself, is that then a task that you have to master as a community leader? For me, I think those local teams, especially the combined teams, are from their own professionalities, with a wide, integral view, but in my local teams, there is also welfare work. And that would be very good, to be able to do the work on welfare work, and of course you do that together, from your own expertise and skills. But then you just have to weigh every time, well, where does that fit, and who can do that best? My young family members are maybe even better in the conversations with the young and the parents at the schools than the welfare work, so I also think that you have to put your expertise in the right way. Besides that, I also think that honest conversations, what Herms says, to feel with each other what is a real, what is a good assignment, and it can't just be that it is NNN. So it also asks for professionalism, as a leader, to be able to handle honest conversations, and to show that as well, at certain times, when it starts to shake or give up, when, under certain conditions, certain transitions can be made or not. And of course, we have a lot of trouble with Den Haag at the moment, so I think it has to make a strong point of Russian, just go on. But to have honest conversations with each other, so I would also like to give this one back, go to the conversation about your assignment that you have received and your role with your company leaders, and see what fits there, and what you need to be able to do that. Yes, exactly. I hear you both. It is really a recurring thing, indeed, that it has to be clearly identified who has what role, and that you also have to recognize that you have to stay there, and that you respect other roles and expertise, and that there is a limit to what can be achieved. Yes, and it may be even a little bigger, that you think very well as a community about how I want to operate in the social domain, and I want to work in a chain, where I, well, the name is PMAQ, where you actually work a little bit in competition, or do you not believe in a marketing in the source, and do you want to work more from a partnership? And then it is also very important that you have a shared vision with all partners, and that you handle the same starting points. With such a model, it is very strange that you are first a partner, and that you are going to pay for it in the next three years, so that is also part of, if you want to do that, you have to have long-term contracts of at least nine years, so that you can really develop together with partners. So you have to think very well about what kind of situation I have in the city or in the village, how do I want to direct that, which also matches the mentality in the environment. And think very consistently about that, and continue to work, what does that mean for your access, for the way of cooperation, for the way of buying in, for the way of working with organizations, well, and that has to be very consequent. And if that is ad hoc or state-swissland, then you can also not transform, and then the inhabitants really suffer from it. There are quite a few solutions to think about, but if you are just consequent and conscientious. Yes, and maybe the solution is also dependent on your own local context and what works best. Yes, we are going a little bit towards the end, I am very curious, Lisbeth, where are you now, how far do you already step outside the halls of the testing rooms, and what do you expect from that? Well, we are now really in the beginning phase with the development teams, so they are really developing teams. We are just starting with our partners, so yes, what I demand now is that we continue, at the end of the year, that we already have a good feeling with each other about how we are working together now. What are the important places where we have to sit and what issues we are facing, what do we still have to solve with each other. And I also hope that the inhabitants will really notice that we are closer to each other, so that we have achieved that at the end of the year. Of course, it would also be nice if the waiting list would go down a little bit. So, yes, ask me again about a year where we are standing. I can probably tell you a lot about what results we have achieved so far. Now the last two and a half years are mainly going to be in the whole preparation and getting the spirit, the policy formation and the balance, the conditions on board, so that we can really make that move with the professionals. Yes, and I hear quite a bit of enthusiasm with you. How does this live for you personally, if you are, this is a big assignment, but how do you actually look at it? Well, yes, it's good that you ask it. Personally, I also feel very strong drive for this question. My daughter has a youth law indication at home here in Amsterdam, and I just notice myself as a client or as an experienced artist. I also had a PGB, and I think we are, even though I'm also a professional, I slept from home to home in this area. A few months ago, I suddenly had an offer, and I thought, what do I do here? After teaching again from a tour guide, and I felt such a big distance and also through the life world, and the offer had no contact with the school again, and I actually thought, well, that's all I have to do. My daughter just needs a bit of various support, and I also have some questions about how we can solve that, and that seems to be very complicated to find that step close to it, so I also hope... Even if that is so difficult for you yourself in the experience? Yes, it is really an enormous search, right? And also with the schools and all that. So there is also my effort. I would like it so much if I could just be with my daughter at school or at my house in the neighborhood, so that we could perhaps be able to help with a couple of conversations with the professional on the way again. And also get the tools of what we as parents should do in this specific case, because I don't want to be on a waiting list for an introduction. But if you don't mind, I have had enough support for the past few years. But actually, it is striking that it has been made so complicated, that while your question is actually quite simple, is the system aimed at making it more complicated than something that is not yet so complicated? That's right. Yes, I think it is very recognizable, because it has a wild growth and offers. I don't see it in Arnhem anymore, that there are really hundreds of offers. And also in Arnhem, we have discussed that, and we are now working on projects to be a team, a group, and then come to the limited number of offers. And I really think that the solution is to get it done again in a human way, that you have professionals in a sort of transparent system that know the home art, that people know each other again, and that you are just helped there. And if it is complicated, that someone from outside comes in instead of being in a following chain. Yes, because as you can see, that it should be more a network instead of a chain. It is not after each other, but with each other in connection. And if it is a very simple thing, for example the introduction of household help or a scooter, then it is fine to be in a chain, and then you go from A to B. But if it is a bit more complex, or there are more actors involved, please don't. And I am quite worried about that, when I look at the discussions that take place in the Hague, that there will be a lot of attention to what is very important, the protection of income. But you want to have as little bureaucracy as possible. And a few years ago I was in search of how much time you use to work with bureaucracy, as 40% of the time. And if someone works 5 days, 2 days a week, is he working with administration? Yes, that is very unfortunate. In Alesvoort, in 99% of the time, there was an agreement about what would happen, but why would you always do all the paperwork? Yes, that is very inconvenient, Thijs. Yes, I think that what you both are telling now, I think, is really where this is going. And if we hear local teams, then we see the development agenda, we see a kind of assignment for us. But I think we have to approach that differently and film the story of those inhabitants before you see what difficulty they all have to face. And then I think that such a strong local team, that is just very pure looking at what exactly is needed, then you come yourself to a good answer, I think. Much more than the inhabitants themselves thought, and not necessarily from problems, but from what is possible. And what is also needed for the whole community, and not necessarily for those few, yes. And especially also a lot of trust in the professionals. Yes, for sure. I think that what is very important here is that trust in the professionals, and you really do that together. So that is something that I want to say, it does not mean that you are going to let go and everyone is going to work their own way. You really do that together. But trust in the professionals, that they can come together with other professionals to the right choice. That is very important. Wow. And a very nice conclusion, I think. And also a heartache to everyone who can and wants to hear, and who now especially listens. Thank you for coming to the studio. Very nice that you were there, Herm and Lisbeth. Also strong for the inhabitants of the apartment complex, and your success with your daughter. And Thijs, nice that you were there again. Yes, that's nice to hear. This was the Blind Makers Jeugd. For this time, if you subscribe to the podcast, then you will not miss an episode. Well, that's what everyone wants, it seems to me. And you can also become a member of the LinkedIn group of the NJI, special for blind makers in the youth field. Then you can talk to me, write yourself, apply and stay in contact with each other. Thank you for listening. And until the next episode of the Blind Makers Jeugd, where we take a new dilemma under the loop. Until then.