HL Legal Lounge | Robert Gardener: Law, policy, and Government Affairs at Hogan Lovells

In today's episode we'll be talking about politics and government affairs. I'm Nikita, I'm a second-seat trainee and I am joined by. And I'm Robert Gardner and I'm our director of government affairs. So I think just kicking off for a bit of background, it would be quite useful to hear about your career journey, how you've kind of gotten to where you are now, where you are here at HL, but all the different stages you've been through. I know you have a really, really interesting background in terms of career, so I'd be really keen to hear a bit more about that. Thanks very much Nikita and thanks again for having me. It's great to be here and it's great to have a chance to talk to our fabulous audience. My role at the firm, which might be a good place to start, is to provide a policy, public policy perspective on our legal advice, and then to take our understanding of law and regulation together with others from the public law team into government and to make representation to government on points that are clients wish to make around law and regulation and policy. But as I say, that's very much part of the public law and policy team. Some of the experience that I bring that allows me to do that is having begun my career in the cabinet office where I worked at the centre of governments in the UK. I've also spent time working in central government overseas in the Middle East, where I was part of the incumbent government in the United Iron Memorates in Abu Dhabi. And I've had about 15 years of private practice as well, advising companies on engaging with government policy. But of course, what we can do at a law firm and what we can do at Hogan levels in particular is we can bring our strong understanding of law and regulation together with that policy experience to make change. It's not just about telling clients what's coming up. It's about allowing our clients to shape what's coming up and sometimes to stop what's coming up. And that's really exciting. And that regulatory strength that we have at the firm is that what drew you to want to make the move from cabinet from working in the public sector into the private sector or were there other drivers for that? Well, I moved into the private sector before I came to Hogan level. So my experience in government was a job and a bit ago. But certainly the appeal of that commercial agenda, that engagement with big business and supporting business to achieve its own strategy and what business needs was a great draw into the private sector. Working in government, you get unique opportunities to engage in hugely complex public policy questions where it's not just what makes financial sense and not necessarily just what makes good economic sense. But there's a sense of common sense and of course political expediency because of the democracy that we live in. So there's lots of different factors, some of which are quite competing and it's a hugely rewarding career. But what I wasn't getting was that commercial drive and that's something that I still find really attractive now. And although I spend quite a lot of my time in Westminster coming back and talking to clients about their own business agenda is a really important part of my motivation at work. Absolutely. And do you think that Hogan levels is the kind of perfect firm that's in between those two and allows you to have that commercial side but also keep in touch with all the public policy work that you used to do in the past or what kind of factors drew you to want to work at HL? I think that Hogan levels is the defining firm for being at that. We often talk about that intersection, don't we have government and business. But I think the investment that this firms made through our regulatory practice as well as in other parts of the firm where there is regulatory work shows that we really mean it. And although we talk about it a lot, there's a lot of evidence to show that we as a firm have taken that direction. I am joined in my team by Nikki to Costa who set up and ran the number 10 legislative affairs unit Charles Brasted Julia Marlow and other lawyers in my team are also hugely experienced with experience inside government. Ed Roberts joined us having worked inside the treasury Fraser Eccles also a former treasury employee so we have made that investment so we do walk the walk as well as talk it and I think that does define Hogan levels we are committed to bringing together the different parts of the firm. It's not just a tag on because we've made a senior hire who used to be in government and I think that for those looking at the firm from the outside as well as those from the inside should recognize that there is a lot of evidence to support this claim that we are at that intersection of business and government. Definitely and I found that in my two seats that I've done so far as well that we work across a number of different teams and it's never really the team you're in working in isolation but it's actually the collective the collective knowledge and the collective effort that brings that kind of client service that we offer here. We're looking at a really important part of the model of our regulatory work is that we have what I bring and others in the team bring and I've mentioned some of them we also have a strong understanding of public law so that is as a matter of law what government can and cannot do and obviously judicial review is an important part of holding account for that in the courts. But the third part is that sectoral expertise and so you know you could be in the farmer team you could be in the consumer team or in fact any other team in the firm and be a really important part of you know designing a program of advocacy into a government department of talking you know about preparing clients for a select committee appearance in parliament. It reaches out much further than just within our team so even if you don't come and join us formally I'm sure we'll be working together. Now that you've worked with all these different teams if young Robert were to look at you now would you have always ended up in the position you you're in now or when you work across different teams do you sometimes think oh actually am I like to do that. Well one of the things that's that separates me from many in the firm in some respects is that I'm not a lawyer although I am a client facing member of the team and a fear no I read law and my degree but I I took the civil service route rather than the law school route and I'm delighted that I did that I think I for me took the right choice so for me within this firm it wouldn't be so easy to disguise myself as a tax lawyer. But I do work with the tax team a lot and actually I think one of the real merits for me of my job is that it's a great excuse to work with literally everyone. Yeah and indeed our team does we are you know cross sector cross practice if there's if there's an engagement with government or looking at the behavior of government from a judicial review perspective. That transcends pretty much everything and we get involved in in all sorts of all sorts of different matters and when you then got to Westminster and you started your career there. How did you find navigating being in that kind of a workplace coming out of university because it's a massive step any workplaces. But I can imagine that that would be quite daunting so how did you navigate that step up into your first job. Well the first thing for me having grown up in the northeast of England and being at university in the northeast of England was being in London and you know unlike the sort of two visits before. It was just being this huge cities around and by lots of busy people and and you know quite a daunting experience navigating the underground and you know finding somewhere to live and being able to pay for the cost of London. I think I wouldn't underestimate how daunting that must be for many people it certainly was for me. So that you know getting through that was a sort of sense of relief. The work itself was was amazing it was I was in the cabinet office I was there when 9/11 happened which of course was the time when there was an enormous amount of uncertainty about where the London was going to be struck. There was a lockdown within within central government and then outside of that that set the tone for quite a lot of my time in in the cabinet office together with this still relatively new administration which obviously went on to win two further general elections. One of which during my time there. But I think the key for me if I could keep you know everything afloat outside of the office in terms of moving and living in London was just trying to take the opportunities and trying to deliver my best in light of you know an amazing place to work with people you see on TV wandering in occasionally lots of distractions and actually just staying focused and trying really hard to deliver really well. And I think that applies part of that answer applies to most jobs it certainly applies to working in a law firm just not to be overcome by huge buildings lots and lots of people you know some very senior figures big clients big client names big client matters sometimes things you've heard on the TV and you're a part of them you know it can be daunting but I think to have the opportunity to be a part of that is also really exciting and can be a great driver as well. Yeah it's incredibly cool I remember when I am so work part coming here by remember my first deal my previous job and my first deals I worked on here and I remember going home and saying to my parents I've done this and it's in the news and how cool is that and even if you play a small role you still played a role in making that deal happen. I can imagine that's probably quite amplified in government because it's broadcasted to so many more people on some so many more different types of media so I can imagine it was probably a bit overwhelming. It can be but I I as we have to be I mean I obviously had to be very careful what I shared but it got to the point where because it was government and because there was usually politics involved everybody had a view. Most people had a strong view and somehow had a view that was the opposite of what we delivered and of course I was then responsible for having delivered what they don't like and I was told why they didn't like it and why it was wrong and I thought why did I mention that so yeah it became quite a generic boring answer fairly quickly but but you're absolutely right it was a really exciting part of the job to be you know to be part of that and I think you know for those looking at a experience in the public sector in the UK and it's not remunerated well. But there are other benefits you know that that prevail and you get some of those working at Hogan levels for the reasons that we've covered but you also do get a chance to work on some unique projects that are you know and I really can't stress this enough that they the outcome will not just be what is you know what what makes commercial sense economic sense even common sense but it has to. Has to satisfy that political that political agenda although as a civil servant I was not political but but we have political masters and ultimately ministers make the decisions and that can throw that can throw a curveball in that you just weren't expecting yeah so you come to us you come to London you get to us minister you get used to that kind of fit into the pace of London life and then you move a few years later to the Middle East. So how did that move kind of come about and what was it like re adjusting to a new completely new environments I found that when I've been to the Middle East it felt very very different to anywhere I've been before. Well I left the cabinet office and had some time in a private consultancy and it was from there that I moved to the Middle East I went over to the Middle East from the private sector but as I said in the Middle East I was working you know within within the government sector. But to answer your question I loved it it was it was new it was a I'd recently married so it was a chance for us to go away and be together you know a fresh without you know our respective friendship groups and that was exciting so it was exciting for for personal reasons as well but the work I was engaged engaged with was it was amazing we we were in Abu Dhabi I was working within within that government sector and part of my role was to look at some of the partnerships that the government of Abu Dhabi has with external organisations who for themselves are looking at expansion growth including in that market. But for us as government we were looking at economic diversification shifting the country away from the reliance on hydrocarbons into education and sport mega events social infrastructure how do you attract people to live and stay in that in that jurisdiction. And shortly after I arrived although had nothing to do with me the Arab Spring kicked off and so we were there at a time of relative insecurity in the region although in Abu Dhabi it was very still very stable but it did it put a spotlight on the region and you know as all governments at that time were just you know keeping an eye on what on what was going on to make sure that that's stability prevailed which of course it absolutely did in the UAE. But I think I think to leave a comfort zone and go somewhere completely different wasn't something that I probably thought that young Robert looking ahead you mentioned earlier probably wouldn't have thought I would have done that but I did and I'm really glad I did and it certainly made me stronger as an individual but professionally you know I've recently been traveling in the region and that's partly because of that time I spent five years living living in the in the Middle East. Yeah and I think the so the firm as you will know offers to comments during the training contract but also after you qualify you're able to make use of the passport scheme and go work at one of the firm's other offices so I think based on what you've said you would strongly recommend people to take advantage of that if possible. I think that's a really good really good suggestion yes absolutely take advantage of it and if the offer hasn't come to you then ask where you can find that offer we are a global firm to travel and to get out of your comfort zone and engage with different people and you know different cultures enriches us brings a different perspective and adds another point of difference for us as individuals as we then come back to the UK or wherever we're from and practice. I found that I've really benefited from having such an international upbringing so I grew up in Belgium and my family is originally from India so you know super super international background I went to an international school when I was in Belgium and I think that's really shaped who I am as a person and that's why I think it's really important that where we can we have those experiences and understand different ways in which people think so I think that's so important kind of clients we work with even from here out of London. Such a diverse client base and I think it makes all the difference when you've had that experience personally I certainly found the firm very open to allowing travel where there's a business need for it and and as part of that spending time with others in other offices you mentioned the HR passport scheme I mean that's a great opportunity to. You know that embed people in other offices and I really strongly encourage those who are you know looking at the firm to look at the opportunity that provides and indeed those who may already be here listening to our. Podcast to look at that and take up those opportunities. One of my favorite things about this job is that every day is a school day as they say you're constantly learning new things and I think as someone at school and at university and even as a training now it's really important to always be topping up your knowledge. Because everything changes so quickly and especially the kind of work you do I feel like you have to be really proactive with knowing what's going on all around the world. So how do you kind of stay on top of everything that's going on what's your best way to keep up to date with things and what advice would you give to students or juniors who want to do the same. Well I think one of the most important things about my role and I would apply this to others in the public law and policy team is exactly what you say being aware of what's going on. Having relevance to emerging threats that clients will face but also being able to bring opportunities if we are at that intersection of business and government then we are able to advise our clients on what's coming on in that place between between those two. Where sometimes clients might be aware of both singularly but not necessarily the bid in between so you're absolutely right in terms of getting up to speed. I mean obviously being on top of the news is really important and also really enjoyable and I think if you're not finding it enjoyable then I would question whether this is the right career path. So for anyone listening that's quite a good test but secondly drawing on that interest from elsewhere in the firm you know having trainees who are keen to help monitor particular subject areas if they're interested if they can bring an expertise all the better. But having them monitor things and send them to me Robert this this might be interesting this might be relevant. I do that with quite a few and that's great it's lovely to be able to engage with others in the firm in that in that way. But crucially and this is a real advantage of having access to such an intelligent and driven you know group of sort of research research colleagues in that respect is applying their own synthesis so it's not just forwarding an article. It's forwarding an article with a few bullet points as to why this is interested who it might be of interest to and what I might want to say to translate that so doing some of that heavy lifting some of that thinking. People who tell me it's fun to do it's exciting to do and actually it means we can go and chase a new business together you know if we can make that work so that's also really important as well. Yeah I found one of the biggest changes I've made since starting work and being a professional career is I come in and eat my breakfast at my desk now. I eat it whilst reading whatever news outlet you know is your preference I like the FT that's my favorite but I'll spend about 20 minutes every morning reading it and I think sometimes even if you're busy even if you just read the headlines gives you really good snapshot of what's going on and if you're following the news generally you can kind of follow along even if you don't have time to sit down and read every single new story in detail so I think that's really great advice. It's a great idea and I would add that not just reading the news but engaging with commentary and deliberately think as humans sometimes we fall into the trap of finding that podcast that we like you know we like her voice or we like her her views we sympathise with his politics or whatever it is that you know maybe we just like the colour of the icon of the podcast but you know I think many of us listen to our podcast and I think to have one that you know is maybe comfortable to listen to but also one that makes a scream at passes by because I can't believe they just said that I think that's really important to interrogate that and you know podcasts are a very good way of getting that slightly longer read but longer listen you know what I mean it's some it's a way of getting thought and different perspectives but I would encourage people to challenge their perspective as well don't be in a podcast echo chamber because that brings little value frankly. Yeah and you're an advocate for podcasts because you often speak as well so you know well that's not it's not the reason I'm an advocate but I'm not necessarily encourage people to listen to me other than this one because you're in it's the key so yeah I think the podcast gives a chance to also gives a chance to fill time that might otherwise be dead time right remember to look both ways when you're crossing the road but but also you're going to walk home why not take two opposing views on you know on China's expansion globally I mean that's that's you know that's time where you can enrich your thinking and I think I found doing that has allowed me to keep on top of different views as well as the news much more than I was. Absolutely and I'm going to keep that in mind I'm going to go out and look for more things that don't fully align with my views or my thoughts or what I'm exposed to on a date today because actually I think that makes you much more well rounded as an individual so I'm going I'm actually going to take that away. Well that's very generous I mean you know we don't I think I think we yeah I think I think too many of us will only listen to what's comfortable to listen to I think social media is dreadful for that I think it really encourages people to you know to hold back on views for fear of being shut out of groups on campuses across universities I feel very very strongly that if we're going to have a next generation of leaders with courage and conviction that they need to hear things that they don't like. They need to hear things they don't agree with I am not endorsing you know hate speech but I am endorsing allowing people to speak who might say things that we don't necessarily agree with and I think people who can't cope with that need to think very carefully about the careers that they choose. Yeah that's one of the things actually that I really like about my group of friends is that most of them don't actually do law and so when we sit down to speak about different things get a really really diverse set of viewpoints because they don't all sit and listen to the same things that you do most of them don't read the FT they don't read the same kind of some of them don't really even read the news and they get their information from elsewhere but actually I always find those conversations the most interesting. Because it makes me think about things from an angle that probably haven't thought about them from before and I bet you can I bet you can structure your views even better by knowing what the descent is to that view and I think again as as a lawyer or in my case someone who regularly advocates on behalf of clients it's really important to be aware of that. Definitely and so if I wanted to take this advice and I wanted to say I was a university student or someone applying to university to study law and I'm interested in the area and I'm trying to think or look for current topics to follow along anything that's interesting the news are there any current hot topics that you could kind of share with us that gives people a good starting point to go from. Wow I mean there's so much out there I think the main thing I would say is that is follow something that genuinely interest you because I think that helps it helps give you the stamina to continue to follow it to your point earlier you know following a story you have to read the whole of the FT every day but picks and stories and see how they develop see what different people say about them develop that much richer argument rather than just having read a different story each day. So I'd say some sort of consistency in that respect can be helpful just so that you follow the news cycle over a period of time in terms of topics itself. Again I think it's an endless answer one thing that I think is emerging as an as an interest to government and as an interest to business and it might be something that listeners want to look at is that relationship between government and business and the different direction it's now going in and I'll give you an example on both sides. We are seeing an increase in the way that governments around the world are bringing in law and regulation to curtail or limit the activity of business under the auspices of national security and economic security for indirect investment regimes for an influence registration schemes outbound investments schemes as we've seen in the United States. This is something that business has to understand it provides uncertainty for business which is difficult for strategic planning or for investment decisions but it works the other way as well. One of the themes we're seeing increasingly from all over the world is this emergence of the notion of state craft by that I mean not just you know share economic heft to boost the bilateral political relationship between countries the idea that we're big trading partners. So therefore we must be close on security and cooperation state craft is something different that's much more incisive it's getting business to do much more specific things to support the political relationship between countries and that puts business in a very difficult position because business is not usually geared up to be a political actor. In fact on the contrary it's often required under its articles of association not to be political but it is being expected and we've all seen captains of industry being hold in to number 10 we've all seen you know in in the over office again businesses called in to to be accountable for for what they're doing as part of the government agenda. It's something we advise on a lot as a firm but I think for listeners as they're following the news look at examples of that think what that means for government think what it means for business and what what to listen to think about it is it right should this be the future direction of that relationship between business and government because I think it's becoming much more complicated but also much more interesting. That sounds really interesting and for those listeners who are maybe still applying to university some of the topics that we read about can be quite complex so do you have any advice on how for example and state craft how they can break that down and understand the background a little bit better before they get into the details of it. Well I think reading around the subject you know will will help getting a different publications perspective on the same story you know if you read the FT then maybe try and find a copy of the Guardian and see you know what they say they often take a slightly different editorial stance but maybe podcasts there might be a former member of the security services who might be commenting on it there might be a former politician current politician. I go for the former politician for an even more enriched answer but I think trying to get lots of different views about that topic and if it's in the news then those views will be available. I think that's really important again I think it is easy for all of us to listen to the view that we like and that does not enrich us and it doesn't encourage us to think more broadly but that diversity of thought I think is absolutely essential. I think that that's probably a good starting point and when you have so many differing views on a topic and kind of the space that you work in do you find that that impacts your day to day work so because there's so much going on all the time. Do you ever have any days that looks similar or does is every single day different. I think every day is different but I think that can apply to many of the lawyers in the firm as well unless you're on a very long case but even then I mean the work the work changes over time. It does days are different and I mean I sometimes at my desk in the office I spend a lot of my time in Westminster including in the evenings as well. I actually live in the northeast of England I come to London on a Monday and head back on a Thursday sometimes on a Friday this week I'm heading back on Friday so I'm not necessarily in London either although that does give a bit of space for some of that longer thinking time that's so important. But no it's a different a different rhythm some days are faster than others and very busy. I think what's important is to have sight of what clients need and make sure that clients are central to what we're doing and you know ensure that the team is busy and sharing that work not just within our team but more broadly within the firm including other offices. Getting others excited others involved clients like that they like to hear a diversity of thought from us or they're not chaosically there needs to be a synthesized conclusion but I think having different views is really important and as a firm we're very good at having lots of different people here who have different backgrounds and different thought processes to problems. That makes us a better place and it gives us much better advice and clients pay more for that. Yeah and I think client service is becoming more and more important even from a very junior stage of the career I remember when I was applying commercial awareness was the buzz word and now it feels like that's kind of changing into client focused or client awareness and understanding. The sectors we operate in or the industry's clients operates and so as a junior in your career what are some good ways to kind of get a better understanding of the sectors are clients operates and what does client service mean to a very young lawyer. Well in my career Nikita I've always put relationships right at the top I think it's a really important way of servicing client needs as well as being able to maintain and build networks which of course also ultimately feed into what clients need. So for me having time where possible in person with others is a really important way of informing that and to be able to understand where the priorities lie in the long term for clients you know what's important and not just what appears to be urgent comes across much more easily if you're meeting them talking them if you get to know them and have that relationship. I think it also means that when they really need help that come to you remember for a lot of our clients we're on the panel there are other law firms available and I think if you can have those strong relationships that helps us pick up more exciting and the bigger matters. So I think I would encourage anyone to think about how you can develop that relationship and as a firm we're very happy for people to go out and have cups of coffee you know with with others both in clients and outside and might feel like a difficult thing to do if you've got a lot on but carving out time to do that maybe taking a colleague as well is a really good way of broadening your thought but also building relationships which can come home to the firm as well. Yeah and I've benefited from that even though I'm really junior still I used to previously work in house and I've been was really encouraged to take people I used to work without for coffee or for lunch and keep those relationships fresh and keep in touch with them because you just you never know when you might work together again and I think that's one of the really great things about this firm is that that's encouraged from a really really early stage of your career and it gives you that good practice. And I've been on the phone with clients on my own and that's also really encouraged and I think that helps develop you from a really early stage. Yeah I think that's absolutely right and I'm sure you're brilliant at it especially if you've had that in house experience you know what the clients are going through where they've where they've come from on this and you can also bring it in with training you know we can take clients out for lunch but we can also bring them into the office and and perhaps expose them to other parts of the business. For a bit of training and update on a topic that might be relevant for their business and I have a sandwich as well and that's quite a nice thing to do spend time together and give them some enrichment as well. Yeah and just to finish off what are your top pieces of advice or what would you like to leave listeners with for those who are considering pursuing a career in law or those who have chosen to study law and are thinking about following. A similar career path to you what advice would you like to give them well look from the career that I have I think you would expect me to mention government in and I am I think increasingly for anyone practicing in law but certainly for me and my career having an interest in government and I mean government generally and the interaction between government and business and law. And we haven't mentioned our superb or winning pro bene practice either but I mean the enormous amount of work we do for organizations in in a pro bene is a firm I very much include them into the mix. I think demonstrating that it's not essential but I think it really helps and I think looking at the direction of legal services having an interest in where that interacts with government policy is becoming increasingly important and I. I would would would encourage anyone who wants to come and join us to at least think about what they think that direction might be and how they might want to play a part in you know becoming involved with it within the firm and ultimately advising clients because it is as far as I'm concerned it's the direction of travel and it would be great to see that in in those who are coming to join us. Thank you very much it's been really interesting to hear about your I guess slightly non-traditional career path and I'm sure people will take a lot away from this conversation. Thank you Nikita very much and thanks for asking me it's been a real privilege.