Hitting the open road can lead to new beginnings

What made the road movie the right form for Dreams and Nightmares? I think that in these inquintessential American genres, like the Western or the road movie, we're not necessarily like they're always. Or they're, we're at the center. Well, you know, one love I couldn't even dare imagine that be an expectation for us to be at the center. So, you know, I grew up working for us everywhere, even in the corners and crevices and, look, I grew up in the Midwest. You know, I feel like it's a very Midwestern experience for me. I don't know if you share this, but like you just be in the car all the time. I am in New York right now where I am speaking to you, but I live in Los Angeles currently. I drove here and see, okay, so I'm talking to you right now. I'm Michigan from my parents' house. And did you drive? I also drove here from New York. Yes. Shatar Michelle Ford's Dreams and Nightmares is a standout road film for a new generation. The film follows a trio of black queer friends in their 30s, embarking on a road trip in search of the fourth member of their friend group, where it leads is a journey of friendship, love, and self-discovery. With inspiration from iconic films like Paris, Texas, and Quickland, Shatar has created a lane for themselves that defies expectations and pushes us to ask ourselves, "What would it look like to have all of our needs met?" Today on the show, Shatar breaks down how Dreams and Nightmares was born from reflections during the pandemic, the romanticism of friendship, and what it means to be truly loved. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Loose and you're listening to it's been a minute from NPR. A show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. I want to talk about how this film was made. So first of all, for those of you all who don't know, Shatar's last feature is called Test Pattern. Just so you understand, I mean, this is a film that was lauded, that was nominated for awards, one awards, and it got a lot of attention, a lot of buzz, a lot of positive attention. But after the success of that first feature, you found you had some trouble getting the momentum and the money to make your second. You said yourself, you had a lot of meetings with people, but a lot of those meetings were not about how do we get them to this second film. And I wonder, you ended up taking a really unique approach to pitching and financing this film. Talk to you about how you did that, and also so that the audience understands how that differs from how independent films are usually pitched and financed. I should first say, you know, the process that I had with my first movie is still the process that I had with my second. Maybe I just had more people to engage with or talk to. But I think the reason why I decided to take this film was because I kind of already did it before and I saw that it's it works and it's meaningful. I financed my first movie Test Pattern on like nine credit cards, and debt that I took, like loans that I took out, and then asked around with a lot of friends of mine who were making more money than me if they'd be willing to like write a check for a grand or two grand to like help me on my way. And then like padding all of that out was just like community support from people being like, sleep on my floor, I'm buying you dinner, I'm hooking the crew up with some air miles, like all that kind of stuff. I should also say as I'm mentioning air miles, like I felt bold enough to take out a whole bunch of credit cards because at the time the offers are so good. I was getting all of these points and that's how I was flying all of that. I was going to say, I was like, "What's through the look of your pants?" And like covering, you know, hotels and like all that kind of stuff. So anyway, it was worth doing because if we wait for the financing, sometimes the timing of a project just doesn't ever materialize. And I watched so many things, great ideas, die on the vine. And I didn't really want that to keep happening. So this was after like, you know, five or six years of just trying to get something off the ground. So with Drew's nightmares, obviously I had all these wonderful things happen to me with the first film and I did have momentum. I was meeting a lot of people, a lot of people had a lot of things that they wanted me to do. I wasn't necessarily interested in doing them. Meanwhile, I'm just sitting here with ideas and feelings and was looking for a way to make something meaningful in the kind of like framework that I'd already cultivated for myself with my first film, Test Pattern. So this is like January 2023. I had had someone randomly challenge me. I think we were talking about in the movies and we were talking about how great Paris, Texas was. And he was like, they should be like a queer like tear. And I was like, yeah, I'm about to think about this. And that was kind of like the little seeds of like how I put this together. But it felt urgent. I mean, at the top of 2023, we were only discussing lightly the concept of a bathroom ban in certain states. And there seemed to be all of these kind of like cultural and political gains that were happening for queer people and black people that were starting to kind of like proceed. Or at least there was some sort of discontent around them. And I don't know, amongst like my friends, we were also having lots of conversations about what it could look like and feel like to move abroad to become an expat. What does that mean? And also I'm asking myself, why do I still want to be in America? And what is that about? And so all of that kind of conceptualized into an outline for a script, which is how I make movies. Okay, so I was reading and like a lot of people, when they're trying to make a film, it's like, okay, we got to have a script. And then you got to have a star attached, you like to script. And then you basically got to almost come like with all the ingredients together. I say all this and say that that's often what people need now before they can even really get somebody to hear their pitch. You really were pitching with an outline of this idea that is so outside of what typically people say that they're looking for when they're trying to find something. And how did you pitch with just like, hey, I'm going to do this. Like I got this idea. Well, first of all, I'm not the only one who works this way. It's a great filmmaker, Mike Lee works this way. And so I think that having like a filmmaker like that to refer to and say this is what I'm inspired by. I'm inspired by a loose idea. You know, I know how the movie is going to ultimately end. I don't necessarily know how it's going to get there. And I know the types of people who are going to be a part of this in terms of like the actors and the loose kind of like outlines of characters that I draw for them. And so from there, I'm looking for people who are going to support a project that is conceptually strong and are interested in supporting a filmmaker. But like, look, the business is the business. That is, and my movie is still about dark skin, black queer women and femmes. Like, that is not. It's hard to make that sell even in 2023. Especially for the amount of money that movies just cost. I think people forget about this too, is that like we have all of these like success stories and like Cinderella moments where we're talking about like a tiny shoestring budget movie like, you know, winning it all and like doing it. And like, we don't recognize that that's a whole bunch of like free labor, upon free labor, upon free labor. And also the thing that I've been reflecting a lot as I treat every film that I make as a small business. And if I'm going to open like a a bread shop, they are certain fixed like ingredients and tools that I need, resources that I need at prices that I actually can't change. And I think, you know, I'm, I am of a very radical politic in tradition of like mutual aid beyond, or even before the concept of mutual aid got like popular impute. But it was at that time that I was asking for money. And so as I was engaging with traditional filmmakers, I was like think about it like mutual aid. Give me as much money as you feel comfortable losing. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, I was reading about how you, you know, filmed in these different locations where you had friends who had homes or apartments that you could shoot in. Like it goes back to this idea of sort of like community. And even more to I think a deeper sense like love, it makes me think about the friendships in the film, right? The friends in this film are such a tight knit group. And in a way, by these three friends sort of taking this moment in their lives to literally go on a road trip that starts from New York City and goes to Iowa City. In a way, they're literally going to the ends of the earth to make sure that their friend is all right. They have not heard from their friend in months. They don't know where their friend is at. And they're making sure they're just driving to make sure they're okay. And that kind of like yearning and that kind of grand gesture are often reserved [BLANK_AUDIO] romantic connections or parent child relationships in a lot of films but in dreams and nightmares friendship is a worthy cause for an odyssey why did you want that kind of love centered in dreams and nightmares oh I I think that is not only the kind of love that I desire consistently forever and ever and ever but it's the kind of love that I've experienced and that I express and it's something that I think was cultivated as practice inside of the pandemic which is something that none of us talk about enough and you know I think that the world's shutting down in March 2020 where people did not know if they were going to have their job on the other side of it or did not know how they were going to get make ends meet when there was like no money coming in and all this like uncertainty where people who are also just unwell because we were getting sick and maybe we lived on our own and did not have the support that we had I was living in Philadelphia at the time and I was lucky to have a very like good old long-time friend that lived she blocks away from me and I was lucky to be living with my partner you know we already were in a good group of being able to take care of each other but we were also part of the community when we lived in West Philly and you know it's a it was Philly is a has a very broad mix of economic experiences and like and racial positionings as you know University of Pennsylvania is right in the middle of a historically black part of the city yeah and I I watched us all kind of figure out how to take care of each other I participated in that ability and I think also in the moment where the world slows down and we get to process our lives we're also asking a lot of questions of like am I spending my time the way that I want to am I spending it with the people that I want to be spending it with fast-forwarding to where we are now in 2026 where everything is hard everything is painful and stratification is at its greatest point in America I want more opportunities for joy and care and tenderness and love and if I can help with this movie remind us of that is possible with our friends I've done my job and that's totally worthwhile we're gonna take a quick break but first if you're a long-time listener or brand new to it's been a minute be sure to come back every Monday Tuesday Wednesday and Friday for brand new episodes and did you know you can make it even easier to get new episodes by hitting the follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast app whether you're a new friend or a loyal bestie join the team by subscribing today coming up after the break you know I also call this movie my midlife crisis movie because for me I'm sitting here becoming more of my authentic self as as this movie is being made stick around I also want to touch upon like another another type of love that is also like running throughout this film like and such a beautiful way of dreams and nightmares also has a lot of romance I mean the main character is a Zalika's relationship you know with her partner Reese played by Charlie Barnett like it's just like such a loving and safe bond filled with warmth and chemistry and humor like playfulness patience a lot of their relationship plays out in phone calls and sort of these like almost daydream sequences but those scenes are are just like ripe with intent like why was romance important to include in dreams and nightmares which is really a movie at its center about friends but why did you have that romantic like thread running throughout as well because friendships can be romantic all relationships can be romantic you know and if it were up to me they would be like again I think that's what practicing love is like when we have these intimate people like friendships can are just as intimate as romantic and sexual partners and I think that again inside of a moment of like a law of a pivol in turmoil six years ago there were folks who were reckoning with that and maybe pushing themselves to like question their like self-imposed boundaries on like who deserves our time and care when everyone is essential to their well-being happiness and community but I I want to also like say that like I frame that relationship in that kind of like dreamy we gooey drippy romantic way also for a reason because it's like it's like an aspiration and like you know the great romance movies romantic comedies all these things they're slightly absurd right they're just slightly out of reach there yeah it's supposed to be like that you know the prompt for me was like what does it look like to have all of your needs met really where you have job security you have like a home that is paid for you have time you have patience and presence you are watered you are fed what is it far like you how do you like how do you manifest in relationships what is conflict look like when you are cared for and so that was a thing I'm looking to see in recent these were people who like were able to take care of themselves and so they got to learn about themselves more who and they are safe and present enough to be able to say hey you know what actually like I think I'm interested in opening up this relationship I think yeah exploring my queerness I think I mean and like and being able to communicate enough to be like we're still intact we're still safe our relationship may change things might look differently but we love each other if that shouldn't change love is practiced in like letting us be our full authentic selves and still provide care you know I I want to shift gears a little bit talk about that type of love there's also a fantastic fantastic intimate scene and dreams and nightmares that involves two characters in a nightclub I obviously can't say too much on the air but it was so what they're really done I just also want to shout out Alfie Fuller I have been such a fan of her acting for I saw her off Broadway in a play called blacks by the late disease of arms and I was like who is this woman Alfie Fuller fab but like that scene reveals so much about one of the central characters Tasha who's played so wonderfully by Sasha compare but it felt like everything that that I wanted in the sex scene what is your philosophy on intimacy scenes and and what's your approach to depicting them well what I was gonna say number one is shout out to intimacy coordinators because especially for dreams of nightmares I don't think we would have been able to achieve what we achieved without our intimacy you was a cheater you was a cheater that's all I was saying because like there was a lot that needed to be done and it's it's hard to navigate that but to rewind back to the the real question of like what what's my my feeling it's about that our my philosophy is that like we have sex we're humans that's we do that and there are many different ways in which like sexual physical intimacy is and can be expressed but inside of a place where trying to cultivate realistic dynamics we're still dealing with real people on the other side and a container of some sort of like conversation about what's okay how we navigate it while still being true to the characters in the dynamic that exists between them is important so you know at the end of the day no matter what I imagine for some sort of sexual intimacy seen in a movie or and honestly any kind of like physical intimacy that exists in the movie it kind of stops if the two people that I'm working with or the many people I'm working with aren't aren't feeling it and then the question comes back to me is how do I facilitate a space where this can be navigated a month what amongst the folks who are actually doing it. For Dreams of Nightmares, it's like, Sasha and I had a conversation about what we knew Tasha, her character, was interested in and up to by going to that club. And as long as I knew that, like, Sasha was game for, like, the end point, that gave us the scaffolding and the kind of green light to be able to negotiate that with an intimacy coordinator. But yeah, I don't know. I think that you can learn a lot about a character through sex if that's the point of the scene. And I don't think that every movie or television show is actually interested in that. But I think for me, it's a useful tool. So that's interesting. That's so interesting. I've learned so much about how the process works. But I mean, at the end of the day, like, all the things that we've touched on today from the way the film was made to how you conceptualized it, to how you depicted the relationships that we see on screen. It's reminding me of something that I wrote down in my notes when I was watching Dreams of Nightmares. I wrote that you, Shatarah, have an expansive imagination for love. And we see it all over this film, the familial, the friendship, romance, sexual passion. I wonder how do you see love essential to your work and how do you see it as necessary for building the kind of world we want? Oh, it's key, but Brittany, I tell you, when I was making this, I was not even aware of what I was doing. Like, not at all. I think that I was in real time, which is with all of my work and real time on processing. And the co-creative process of making the film is that, again, I have an outline, but my actors are inputting. Like, they're the ones in rehearsal that are bringing a scene to life. And I don't really know what I've got until after I've got it. I'm a very tender, like, ooey gooey, like, lovey person. I don't necessarily know if that is something that black women and girls are encouraged to be, the kind of very, like, soft, soft, soft tender. And I think that, like, there's a lot of things that happen as we move to the world. I think that you keep that stuff closer to your chest, or at least to how I've experienced it. And so it's only been in my, you know, I also call this movie My Midlife Crisis Movie, because for me, I'm sitting here becoming more of my authentic self as this movie is being made. I'm inspired to make this movie because of the process of coming towards my authentic self, which is walking towards love in all his ways in the most freeing approach possible, you know. But I promise you, I did not see that until quite recently. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Well, I'll tell you what, listen, it's coming straight through when I watched the film. I was like, I felt it, I felt it, I felt it. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it because it really is such a special movie, and it's one of the best things I've seen in a year. So, um, Shatar, thank you so much for this conversation. This was Dream. Thanks, Brittany, I had so much fun. That was Filmmaker, Shatar, Michelle Ford. Their film, Dreams and Nightmares, is out now. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Patuck. Our supervising producer is Sheriff Vincent. Our executive producer is Barton Gurdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Loose. Talk soon!