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Welcome to the Work Trends podcast brought to you
by Talent Culture.
I'm your host, Megan Embiro.
Every week, I interview smart people
reimagining the world of work.
Be sure to stay current with all of our interesting podcast
by visiting our page at Talent Culture Work Trends
on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
And of course, you can listen at talentculture.com
on the podcast page.
Hello everyone and welcome to the Talent Culture
Work Trends podcast sponsored by Pharma.
Today we are exploring the wild world web, right?
Where, if not monitored properly,
can be detrimental to organizations
and even employee safety.
It's more important than ever to have the right tools
in place to screen and monitor potential
and current employees.
But before we begin today's podcast,
I want you to ask yourself two questions.
Number one, are you actively monitoring
for online misconduct?
And number two, do you feel that your hiring practices
are current or are they outdated
when it comes to online screening?
Do tell.
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Today we are thrilled to welcome back Ben Monez.
He is the CEO and founder of Pharma,
an award-winning AI-based software company
trusted by thousands of talent acquisition teams
from around the globe.
He's an expert on how technology is shaping society,
particularly in the workplace.
In addition to leading Pharma,
Ben serves on the boards of a handful of high growth startups
and mentors, entrepreneurs, just starting out in their journey.
Welcome, Ben.
- Hey, thank you, Megan.
Great to be back on the podcast.
- Right. - Or to today's conversation, yeah.
- Now, totally, I'm so glad you're back to check in
and tell us what you're up to.
So I'm gonna dive right in.
Let's begin by talking about the influx
of digital natives in the workplace.
What does that mean?
And how is it impacting employers?
- Yeah, it's a great starting point
on today's conversation and sort of the broader,
I think demographic shift that we're seeing
in the workplace today.
At a high level, you know, what we're seeing right now
is that more than 50% of the global workforce
is Gen Z and Millennial.
That number is gonna climb to 75% by 2030.
These people and myself included,
I can speak as a late stage Millennial here.
We're all digital natives.
We've lived our lives online just as much as offline.
And employers are now waking up to that fact.
I think they're starting to see
when they look around their office,
their people with their faces buried in their phones
on their lunch break.
They're seeing that people aren't really going out
at the happy hour anymore.
They're connected on TikTok and LinkedIn, right?
And so we're seeing digital spaces become more and more
of sort of the digital water cooler, if you will,
or the training ground, the breeding ground for how people
learn to engage with one another and work together.
So when we talk about digital natives in the workplace,
what we're seeing is that employers have now realized
that digital identity for more than half
of their workforce is offering
relatively significant signal
into how people are gonna act when the camera isn't on
when the interview is over,
how someone's gonna act around fellow employees,
around customers.
I think for a long time, when I started FOMA years ago,
only about 44%, maybe 30% of companies
according to a career builder research I remember at the time,
only 44% of companies were doing any form of online
or social media screening looking people up on the internet.
That number is now climbed to 85%.
So I remember when I was starting, people would be like,
yeah, my kids are on Facebook.
What does that have to do with hiring anybody, right?
But now, we're living in a totally different workplace
and I think employers are now tuning into a new source
of insight about their people, both new hires
and existing employees that can give them a lot of grounding
and insight into who these people really are
that they're bringing into their organization.
- Well, in Ben, especially when you talk about digital natives
are over 50% of today's workforce.
And will be, what is it, 75% by 2030?
I mean, look at these numbers, everybody,
and the work trends community, Ben and I are glad you're here.
Lots to talk about, obviously.
I absolutely love this kind of data.
We all know that the younger generations
are impacting the workplace in so many ways,
but I think this is a fascinating take
on what that can mean for employers.
We love our digital natives.
We love our younger colleagues and our friends, right?
But they did grow up with a different environment
and we got to get real about that.
A digital environment that doesn't really care, right?
About nine to five.
It just doesn't, it clearly affects, right?
How we all work and manage.
So a term that Fama uses is misconduct.
What does misconduct actually mean in this context?
And why is it important for employers to monitor this, Ben?
- Yeah, sure.
I think misconduct is something that we all know.
We've all seen it, right?
We've seen a bad apple spoil the bunch inside
of a company.
There's something called the misconduct multiplier effect,
which essentially sort of the normalization
of abrant behavior in the workplace, right?
Maybe somebody to give you one real life example here.
Let's say we're in a meeting and somebody makes a sexist joke,
right?
And the woman in the room looks at that
and sees nobody really holding that person to account.
They feel terrible about it,
but then maybe another guy in the room, something like that,
they see it and since no one checks the behavior,
that behavior becomes normalized, right?
And so that's really the sort of quantification
of what we call the misconduct multiplier effect,
but one single incidence of misconduct in a company
can lead to 1.5x more misconduct happening
in that company over time.
And we think about misconduct.
We're thinking about everything from fraud
to harassment to intolerance in the workplace, right?
The things that we all care about today,
when it comes to how we manage our workforce,
how we manage our teams.
But the signals and signs of misconduct
kind of back to the earlier point we're making
on the sort of digital spaces and the way
that the vast majority of the workforce now
lose its lives.
People aren't really necessarily telling you
in a job interview that they're the type of guy
that makes sexist jokes.
They're not going to tell you that they might be the one who
is acting intolerant, threatening,
or harassing towards other people, right?
So there's this sort of connection now
that you bridge quite nicely here,
which is that when employers see, okay,
more than half my workplaces online, to your point,
they're living in digital spaces,
they're finding opportunities to engage online,
not only is that signal to give me a sense
of who's a qualified candidate and who's a quality candidate,
but I can begin also digging into understanding
the normalization of misconduct.
So if you have somebody that in a very public way
on the internet is saying again, intolerant, misogynistic,
maybe evangelizing the use of drugs at work,
which trust me, we've seen,
we've seen the post of people being like,
hi, at work right now, I can't believe it.
That sort of thing, that does happen.
So that kind of nexus point between employers saying,
look, I know, and I can quantify,
I think the HR pros on the call here,
they'll have that experience.
They know that the normalization of that aberrant behavior,
people who are acting in ways that are contrary
to the employee handbook to the way the standards,
I think that folks sat around community
and engagement, et cetera, inside of the organizations,
they've seen how one person can kind of shift
in a particular team or a geo,
to the office, this sort of sentiment
and normalization of what's in and what's out,
and using the online record to establish that early signal,
to get those some connection points, if you will,
is something that a lot of employers are doing today,
and I think too, it's not just, I think, for your audience,
important to know that you can find this information,
it doesn't always mean, you have to fire the person.
Sometimes it's course correction,
sometimes it's simply saying, hey,
those sorts of jokes you're making on the internet,
that's not cool here.
So when you're in that meeting, when you join the company,
I don't want you making those off-color comments, right?
And that one conversation,
before that person starts, could head off,
that example, I share at the beginning of the question,
which is the guy saying something,
misogynistic, making a joke or something like that,
and a meeting, making a woman
or a group of women feeling comfortable,
and that sort of meeting.
So that's really what we're talking about.
We're saying, hey, how do we think
about misconduct in the workplace?
Sure, we care about misconduct online,
but what I'm most concerned about
is the normalization of that misconduct,
and it finding its way into the workplace
and having a negative effect on the employee experience overall.
So Ben, let's take this just a step further.
Tell us what impact is the ever-growing online presence
of candidates and employees having on hiring,
which you've touched upon, and long-term employment,
because this is a 360 view we're taking, Ben, right?
Absolutely, absolutely.
So again, it comes back to these questions of basics,
first thinking principles, right?
What are the things that employers care about
when they're screening new hires
or employees coming into their organization?
The very first is, how's this person gonna act
when the camera's not on, right?
How they gonna act when they join the company
around fellow employees around customers, right?
It's a basic question.
And, you know, in today's world of interviewing,
you know, I think you see employers
that are really trying to dig in and answer that.
It's never been easier to appear qualified for a role.
Whether you have a AI tool
that's like doctoring your resume,
maybe you're doing some chat GPT interview software
that gives you real-time responses and real-time insight,
you know, when it comes to how people are engaging
and how folks are interacting with certain questions, right?
How you should answer questions more proactively.
We even have some of our customers
that are asking candidates to wave a hand
in front of their face to do proof of personhood.
In other words, making sure that this is actually
a real person, that that's actually what they look like, right?
So if that's the sort of lens that, you know,
our customers are under and the sorts of questions
they're asking, then that's really where we see the role
look online identity to provide you some of that signal of how folks have acted and not,
you know, around what colors they like or what politicians they prefer or what their
stance is on.
It's not gold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or what their stance is on complex, you know, geopolitical issues.
That's not what we're talking about here, but again, it's the sorts of things that would
really sort of establish, I think, that kind of bright red line, you know, when it comes
to what employers, you know, really should be caring about in this online presence.
I think he's giving for both candidates and existing employees that unvarnished signal,
you know, to HR and talent acquisition teams that are out there in the field.
So, you know, really the general idea here is how can we leverage online identity to answer
the same questions that we would answer in an analog context.
And that's really where, you know, Fama is designed to operate, say, hey, you've already
asked these questions, you've already institutionalized these ideas and these concepts.
We've seen the employee handbook.
You care about reducing enhancements in the workplace, you care about making sure that,
you know, it's a community driven, you know, you volunteer time off, et cetera.
You know, organization that you're setting up, what we're doing is helping provide a level
of alignment against those policies against what makes, you know, what does good look like
at our organization, but using the online record as a proxy to do that.
Let's talk about old school hiring practices.
One of my favorite topics, right?
If you're out there in the work trends community, you got an old school recruiter here.
You wouldn't know it would do some of you, but, you know, I do, I love hearing from people
like yourself, Ben, you're creative, you're following the data, you care, but talk to us.
Give us the reality check of what's old school, what's outdated and what's the best solution
right now when you talk about traditional hiring practices.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, look, I think without a doubt, the rise of remote work, remote hiring, video
tools, et cetera, have fundamentally shifted what some of the old school to use your term
quality assessments have been, right?
I remember when I was applying for jobs and I was coming out of school, it was about
the paper stock of your resume, right?
It was about being able to show up on time five minutes early, waiting in the lobby,
and, you know, your shirt ironed and all that, and I remember even I had this boss who would
actually ask people.
On their way to the interview, to pick up like a gallon of milk for him at the store or
diapers for his kid or something like that, because he wanted to assess a person's willingness
to kind of deal with uncomfortable scenarios or last minute changes, anything like that.
So sort of a rough proxy on how you're going to engage in kind of a real life environment.
You know, for us, I think that that's really changed, right?
And I think the analog world again, you know, back to these kind of old themes we're talking
about here is really dissipating.
And it's becoming, I'd say something that's much more in favor of the online sort of
ecosystem and how folks tend, you know, to engage with one another.
So I think candidate screening in general has really evolved.
And I think you're seeing now employers throwing up their hands, asking themselves these questions,
how do we begin adopting to not just the current makeup of the workforce, but the way that candidates
are engaging, right?
Now, you know, we've sort of tried to come up with these conversational ATSs that can talk
to a candidate, you know, we won't even go into the whole work day thing and all that
of the various assessments that are put in place based on a person's resume.
But, you know, the video interviewing to these interviewer tools, interview E tools that
you can buy, there are so many different options now for folks to appear qualified, as
I was saying, to have the skill set to tap into an LLM to help answer a complex, you
know, technical exam that's provided to, you know, certain types of roles and certain
types of functions.
So I hate to say it, but the answer to the go into the old school questions is going back
to base principles and going back to some of the old school things that we care about,
right?
Let's distill down.
What does our organization actually need?
What are the tasks, what are the activities, what are the outcomes that we are seeking
in this role in this candidate, and how do we get there, right?
Of course, I'm biased in terms of saying that you should use, you know, the online record
as a proxy to answer some of these sorts of questions.
But, you know, the reality is that new solutions that are out there are only going to come from
a basic understanding of what good looks like to your organization, a thorough line I would
say between, you know, what recruiters are asking what the hiring managers are expecting
and what leadership is expecting from that future employee in that particular outcome that
they're hiring for.
You know, a long way of saying, I think the analog is out a lot of those, you know, resumes
aren't getting printed anymore.
So employers have to seek and find ways to answer some of those quality questions from
a quality of fire about who this person is, how they're going to act around others.
And, you know, the basic things we've always asked, but trying to use a different primary
source of information to do so.
Well, I'm going to make a bold statement today.
Employer brands that want to find and retain high quality talent should be hungry for research
and solutions just like this.
I think the brightest and savvious brands out there understand the need for insightful
practices in properly surveying candidate pools.
And that's really what we're digging into, right?
So I mean, time flies when we're having fun, Ben, right?
So last question here, you and I could talk for hours, but what do you think our listeners
should be considering as we address this topic and where can they access your research
because you got some cool stuff going on there?
Yeah, thanks a lot.
I think the quick answer I would provide is that too often I think in the world of candidates
screening talent, technology in general, we find ourselves looking for what's faster,
what's cheaper.
How can I do what I'm doing today, but maybe do it a little bit better or do it a little
bit more on the cheap side, right?
We're all seeing compression.
I think it's never been harder in the world of talent acquisition, especially talent acquisition
tech to succeed than it is right now at this very moment.
So, you know, what I would encourage listeners to think about is to go if you're on the talent
acquisition side, if you're focused on recruiting, right?
Let me go back to your business units, ask, what are we looking for in the back half
of 2025?
How has your perspective of a high quality candidate changed since 2024, since 2023, maybe
since 2022?
I would imagine the advent of all of these new technologies that are candidate centric
or recruiter centric have shifted the landscape in terms of, you know, what checkpoints you
can have on an individual recruitment workflow, right?
About the different types of candidate attributes that you're seeking, right?
And so my first piece of advice is just go back to the basics, right?
Let's take a look and understand what about our current labor pool that we're going after.
What is that going to look like in three years?
What is that going to look like in four years?
And does our tech stack support really the goals that we have around growing and expanding
that labor pool?
Again, you know, you mentioned it like that number going from 50% to 75% of the workforce
in 2030 is mind boggling.
The simple fact that half of the workplace today are made up of Gen Z and Millennial digital
natives.
And the number is that climbing to 75% suggests to me that, you know, if you've had a,
you know, stacks since 2015 to 2020, maybe that you've been working with and you've added
a few tweaks to it over the past five years, it might be time to revisit because it was
only 2024 that this shift began where it went majority Gen Z and Millennial.
That was the first year that this happened, right?
So we've got a very different labor pool that we're looking into right now.
I think a very different type of people who are recruiting, who are being employed decision
makers and companies that are beginning to shift some of their mindset about what's important
and what's not.
So I think this is a great opportunity to go back to the business unit and say, hey, look,
our workplace is changing.
Use this data we're talking about today, right?
I am sure the business unit leaders that we're talking about might feel the 50% in the workplace
is 75% by 2030, but they may have never quantified it before.
So starting with that simple question, how have we evolved and adapted to this changing
landscape?
How have we evolved our toolkit to reflect these demographic changes in the workplace?
That's a big question.
You know, I'd encourage folks to kind of go back to after listening to this podcast.
If you want to learn more about what we're doing at Pharma, you can check us out on our website
Pharma.io or follow us on LinkedIn, any one of our social channels, we've got a lot of
content there.
Do a lot of stuff if you make it, of course.
So, you know, we've got a lot of resources there if you guys check out and Pharma.io is
the site.
And there's two words easy and accessible, and that's what I really like.
And I know there's a lot of people out there in the work trends community that are feeling
this.
And I highly recommend that you all go and download this state of misconduct research.
I think there's some really cool intel there about risk mitigation that HR leaders should
be exploring and acting upon.
So thanks again for stopping by, Ben.
Great conversation.
Appreciate it.
Thanks a lot.
What a great conversation today.
Ben is a fantastic leader with a clear view of how to embrace multiple generations in
the workplace, and how to protect your organization from damaging misconduct.
Here are a few of my key takeaways.
Number one, I highly recommend selecting a trusted partner to monitor online conduct and
misconduct.
Ignorance is simply not bliss in this area of business.
Number two, truly knowing who you are and who you welcome into your workplace and knowing
their behaviors as one of your ambassadors can be a game changer.
Number three, if your hiring practices aren't consistently evolving to meet the needs
of today's workforce, you're missing the boat.
At talent culture, we are always looking up the future of work, right?
Well, the future is now.
And when it comes to ensuring that your talent acquisition is modern, thoughtful and cautious.
Ben, thanks so much for being with us.
Ben, thanks so much for being with us today.
Last but not least, the talent culture community out there, I want to hear from you.
Be sure to use the hashtag #worktrans and share your thoughts on the following questions.
Number one, how does your or-
Organization Handle and Employees Online Miss Conduct.
Number two, are you currently monitoring
the digital footprints of candidates and employees?
And number three, how are you seeing hiring,
changing as you welcome digital natives
into your workplace?
Visit us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and X
to share your responses to these questions
or feel free to contact me personally at
Megan Embiro on the socials or @
[email protected].
Thanks so much for listening to this Work Trends podcast.
The place to find meaningful connections at work.
If you love what we do here,
make sure to share our podcast with your friends
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See you again soon.
Thanks for joining us for today's conversation.
I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
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Be sure to subscribe so you can listen on the go
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I look forward to catching up with you next time.
I hope today's information made you wiser, happier,
more informed, and most importantly,
thinking of how you can use it to improve
the quality of your life.
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