HIP E83 Emanuele Pani - 50 Dollars to 140-Key Hotel

What would you do if you found the deal of a lifetime but had exactly $50 left in your bank account? Today's guest has been playing that game his whole career, and it's taken him from mopping parking lots to owning the building. And now he's deep in negotiations on 140 key abandoned hotel in Sardinia, Italy, where he was born. If you've ever wondered what it actually looks like to scale from short-term rentals into boutique hotels and how to find deals that aren't even on the market, this one's for you. The Hotel Investor Playbook, your guide to building wealth and freedom through hotel and hospitality ownership. Welcome back to the Hotel Investor Playbook. I am Michael Russell, founder of Milama Capital and your host. My guest today started his career as a maintenance guy at a 40-unit apartment complex in Boca Raton, Florida. He answered phones, he cleaned the parking lot 11 years later, he owns the whole building. And along the way he built this vertically integrated hospitality business in South Florida. He scaled to 84 long-term doors across the Midwest and he is currently under contract to buy a boutique hotel in Sardinia, Italy, where he was born. His name is Immanuel A. Pani and I've been looking forward to this one. He welcomed to the show. Thank you Michael. I appreciate you super grateful for being here. I'd love to see your guys this journey and it was lovely to have you and your partner on the SCRC group podcast a little while back and so I'm very excited to be here and hang out with your audience now. I want to start with a story I read about you. You were trying to close on a 29-unit building in Charleston, South Carolina and you were short on capital and rather than walk away from this deal, I mean you drained your personal savings account I think down to like around 50 bucks or so so you could wire that in to close the deal. Walk me through that moment. Dude there's just times in life that's what's necessary right like that was the moment. That was a great deal and all the other partners of the deal were gonna do it and we had another guy was me and another guy who are still missing out and in that moment you have the choice to either be like do I become resourceful and do I put my money where my mouth is or do I choose to let circumstances influence the decisions that I'm making life and the quality of life that I have like what's more important and for me in that moment putting my money where my mouth was was more important than keeping the money there. Yeah. Did your partners know how deep you had gone or were you kind of just carrying that on your own? No yeah no I mean it's like Kobe Bryant interview that he talks about always the craziest game that you ever played I don't know if you ever heard it and it's like on no sleep and he says because my team members don't need to know no should they care and neither should the actual fans nobody like it was my like it was my side of the it was my past or grass right people don't need to know or at least that was my choice at the time and what did that deal look like like was it a good deal on paper or it was a crazy link it up. No yeah it was that was a was a syndication we were doing we were closing on the syndications and then raise the money was a lot of like was a C class kind of acid but just outside of Charleston like in North Charleston and it worked very well for the type of housing we had a great manager in place we knew if you raised rent quite a bit and so it was just it was just a good deal was like a solid solid deal and I knew part of the money was gonna come back once we close this indication as well so it was boring those moments that like logically thinking it feels like she I'm putting all my money in this thing but then your mind comes in is like well what are the actual facts but once we're done raising this money will come back maybe three maybe six months or now we'll all come back so what are we actually afraid of and it's actually being able to put those two things on the plate and look at them and be like what if I believe in me and I do and I believe in my team and I did and I believe in the deal which I did and I believe in me and my partner's ability to raise the money why would be in a freedom like why not battle me in that moment right well how long were you at that 50 something dollar balance like before this thing started producing like what did those first 90 days look like for you but that's been but that's been my game like I was comfortably uncomfortable for fucking 12 years I hope I can f-drop on here but like most of my beginning and real estate did I was just it was just that so I started working as a farming complex in 2010 and by 2012 the gentleman that worked for I wanted to sell because he got divorced went to move back to Israel and at 22 I had the opportunity to buy the management of this apartment complex which we ran like a buti Kotal and then he was gonna loan me and co-sign for me on the loan alongside with my dad and I was 22 at the time I go like you don't even know what you don't know and so you have this beautiful bliss of ignorance that like shit yeah I can do it I've been doing it as a job I can run this thing on my own I go I had a loan at 22 of 11,335 dollars I still remember it so now and it was held by BB&T bank and that was the monthly payment every single month like 11,335 dollars was all like held by BB&T bank and literally I had a thing with my bank which was Bank of America which is still Bank of America you know how you have like this five day grace period to pay your your mortgage yeah I will go on day four to Bank of America and I had a girl that worked there that she would know every month that would come to pick up 11,335 dollars a cash and then I would drive up the street to BB&T to deposit it because 99% of times I had had not enough money up until the very last minute to pay for my mortgage and then I had to do it that way because I would deposit it directly into the mortgage account because if I wired it it wasn't gonna happen right so that's how tight it was and I became really really comfortable playing in this tight delayed gratification financial pressure environment because I've always believed in myself and my vision and I've always been willing to be uncomfortable now for success later yeah well that tells me a lot about your wrist tolerance you referenced this deal this original one that you were 22 years old take me back to that moment I mean that's a lot for a young man to take on you're over $11,000 a month you know what were the terms of that deal like what made you say yes to take on an apartment building at such a young age so I was working there as a maintenance guy I worked for this gentleman by the name of Hanan Benavi and I was right out of college so 2010 I moved back to Boka with a degree in accounting and finance that was completely useless because it was the last financial recession right so I wanted to be a waffle wall straight at the time and wall street was closed so that didn't even didn't happen so I went to live with my mom like all good Italian boys would have done once you have you know you don't know what to do you just go back to my mom's house and my mom at the time was living next door to the Chrissy ever tennis academy my sister is an amazing tennis player and that's where my mom and sister were living and so I came back from college and he was seasoned and Hanan is Jewish and so the beginning of the relationship was hey I need somebody to speak English while they can answer their phones on the weekends because once Shabbat comes I don't answer their phone and that was my beginning that's how I started and then Hanan and I liked each other he became my my real estate mentor and then the divorce happened for him and the conversation was like look I have all these properties I can tell you the majority of my units and along with that I'm going to sell you the management of the rest of the apartment complex so the apartment complex is a 40 units 10 buildings building a circle of shape around the swimming pool and there's 24 two bedrooms eight three bedrooms and eight one bedrooms and I've been working there and I saw the money because I've do the reservations and sell and I was like this can work but Michael this can work here I have never like looked at PNLs and like the financial things is just I was running the business and was in day to day of the business I'm like I can make this happen so there was this just belief and then there were the banks that were willing to give me money and Hanan they're believing me enough to cosine and my dad they're believing me enough to cosine and then the moment that color is I saw it hustling and I didn't have the systems and I didn't have the things I just had a dream and I believed I could do it and that's honestly it's fucking half the time it's really all you need and credible right hey guys if you're getting value out of this conversation do me a favor and take 30 seconds right now and leave me a review on Apple podcast or Spotify it literally takes half a minute but it makes a huge difference in helping other hotel investors find the show okay now back to the episode so that original apartment building from what I understand though you transitioned that building from long-term rental to like rental arbitrage of short-term rental right presumably using Airbnb to run out the unit short-term and so you are making the spread from what you owed Hanan the original owner and then eventually you start using those cash flow proceeds to what to purchase individual units from him can you walk us there like what were there what was the sequence of events yeah so we started when I started working there my my mom and sister were living in one of the apartment so my dad purchased that apartment for my mom and sister and then little by little as an aunt is divorced we're happening he didn't want to keep being involved as much as he was and so as apartments came up we started buying them so we had a couple we had five apartments by the end of 2012 by June of 2012 and then that's where Hanan's divorce finalizing is like look I want to sell you 11 apartments that I owe and then the rest of them You're gonna manage for the other people. I have a contract with them. It's either at Arbiterai or an management, right? It's either a percentage of things or it's just an arbitrage deal. And I'm going to sell you those contracts. Do you want them? And I said yes. And so for the 11 units, that's the mortgage that I had. They 11,335 dollar mortgage. And then the rest of the units were just arbitrage. And so in season, so November through April, he was very happy. And then there was the summer months. There was a bit of a struggle, right? And so it was misunderstanding how to play that game. And at the same time, saving money to try to buy more. So I was a 16 properties in 2012. That's when I closed. Then by 2016, about four more properties. So I was a 20. And then I bought no properties up until January of 2020. So January of 2020, I buy 18 apartments in a single hit. And then I don't know if you remember some stuff happened in March of 2010. That kind of complicated. All right. The kind of complicated things a little bit. And so I bought 18 apartments. So I was at 38 apartments altogether. COVID happened. We were blessed. Florida was very good to me. We had a moment of absolute fear around April May when the governor closed Florida. And then you reopened it and everything was good. But actually, that worked out perfectly because it was the leverage that I needed to get to unit 39. Because they weren't comfortable with the money that they were making at the time. And so they were willing to sell me. And then once I had 39, I went to the last people that I was managing for. And was a very honest, kind of mafiaish conversation, which was like, look, I know you don't want to sell, but you kind of don't have a choice. Because I own 39% of it in Florida. I can collapse the association. If I want to, I can make you sell to me in one way or another. Or we can just have this conversation. I'll pay your premium for it. And you guys can just go. What was your motivation for wanting to take control of those last units? Well, because there's a lot more power in owning the entire thing. Right? Like I wanted an intact them because then it's one project. Right? And so in terms of also the equity components, the ability to get loans much easier because obviously, we're starting to become hard with the majority of banks and the more properties you owned. They weren't as comfortable lending because they're considered condos. Right? Because when Hanan bought it from the previous owner, it was an apartment complex. He turned them into condos, so sold them at the beginning of the last financial recession. And then he bought them back a little by little and then I bought them from him. So it's been kind of this entire thing. And do you still own this property today? Yes. And how are you currently operating it still as short-term rental units or ground terms? No, no short-terms. So they're probably like 75 to 80% of them are short-terms. And then we do a lot of the what I call "squier releases" for the finance academy. So they have families that come from overseas. And so they do that September through June type of rental. But they're fully furnished, fully equipped apartments with their full intensive purposes, Airbnb. Hmm. That's a big transition going from long-term rental management to short-term rental management. We all know for any of us that are in the short-term rental game, it's a completely different management style. It's way more intensive. There's a lot of moving parts. I guess I'm curious to know how you made that transition. What were some of the systems that you had to develop so that, you know, I guess what broke for you that you had to realize, well, I've got to systemize this so that it works efficiently. So the main thing actually was the fact that I was I bought myself a job not a business. And so I used to be because again, if you're read the e-mit, I used to be the operator to become the business owner. And so I would operate as I've always done as a technician. So you're referencing the e-mith revisited book, right? Love that book. Great book. One of the original, now there's been so many derivatives of that book for more of like the modern day era. But the root of working on the business instead of in the business comes from that book. Highly recommended. Great, great reference. Yeah. And so I realized that I, because even when I started managing and I started owning the management company, I still did maintenance once a day because I was just, I had a cleaning person that was me. And so I was there all the time. I had no life, right? Like I had no, like I couldn't do what I do now. And so the beginning of it was literally just streamlining and maximizing on the on the cleaning side. And then eventually the big pivot thing moment wasn't necessarily a piece of technology. It was a person. And so the moment that I hired my on-site manager, which is also my head of maintenance. And then I fully stepped the way from the day-to-day operations of it because I had my VA girls. I had him as a face of it because Michael at the beginning, I had built the business on relationships that people wanted to talk to me. And so once I had the VA event, people would call and be like, "Can I speak to him another?" And they're like, "He's not here. How can we help you?" They're like, "Well, just haven't called me." And so that is actually one of the bigger pain points that I experienced, kind of transitioning myself out of the business, was that being okay in the people pleasing inside of me, being okay with not being as hands-on and as involved in the experience and trusting that I picked the right team members to deliver the hospitality that I am about, right? Like to deliver the values that I hold in terms of like what hospitality means and how we take care of people and making sure that my team from my VA to my cleaning girls to my maintenance guy, that we all speak that language. So even if you don't speak to E, you speak to somebody that speaks like E and they care of you like E does. And then it was just being okay with that kind of transition happen. Then obviously Breezeway was great for us in terms of maintenance and quality and all the different systems, right? But I know in a time of AI and systematization people, like, "What is the system?" And I'm like, chances are it's a person especially at the beginning, I think a person can help you make quantum leaps a lot more than a system can. And maybe AI is what I'm going to be wanting to say and it proves me wrong here, but in my experience even there is how much effort do you put into your AI, which is the same thing as how much effort you put in a team member. It's going to yield. Yeah, good. Games. Well, I want to circle back on what you just said, which is when you read that you myth revisited and recognized that there's systems and processes to prevent you from working in the business that you can really enhance your highest at best use of your own time. I guess I want to know when you made that shift, where was your highest and best use of time now shifted away from operations? What were you focusing on? That's a great question because one of the things that I did at the beginning was focus my attention. I'm creating a new vertical for myself and those were the times that I started doing the syndications. I started buying out of state. I got my real estate license and then I started kind of like getting shiny objects in the room in a sense and I started spending a lot of time in other areas of real estate and not so much focusing on necessarily the hospitality piece of it or growing the hospitality. So it became kind of like a, I didn't know. I was going for other things and a lot of people at the time started getting into multi-families and buying out of state and it sounded good and it sounded easy because it was like, yeah, go to Missouri and buy a single family house for $25,000 or $40,000 that rents for 650 and like, well, how many of those do you have? How many can we buy? And so I got, honestly, I got distracted because again, I wasn't as tied to a bigger vision and bigger goal at the time. It was just, I knew the long-term plan for the village and what I wanted to do there and I got myself out of the day-to-day operations of the business and then I kind of took my eyes off the ball and that's I think why it took me as long as it took me to buy all their apartments because it was just like kind of like up and down energy and focus. So really focus at the beginning then 2016 happened, bought some and then in that meanwhile, right, 2016 to 2020, I did all kinds of shit and then there was a moment that I realized that like the business was doing good and I had enough cash, I was like, shit, we should close this, like we should finish this thing. Now that we have the team and the people instead of chasing all of this other stuff that I'm doing. Well, for someone listening to this, what's the takeaway? Knowing what you know now if you could go back in time and rewrite the script of those several years where you felt like you were distracted, what would you have done differently? So that's a beautiful question because there's two ways of me answering that. There's the truthful way of how I would answer it, which is I wouldn't, I wouldn't change a single thing because if I, day that wouldn't be who I am now and I'm very grateful and happy and satisfied with who I am right now. And I know it's a byproduct of all the experiences and things that have happened. Second answer that I will tell you is if you want me to find a silver lining kind of like golden nugget in there, it's just always understanding the why of the things that you're doing and how do they tie to a bigger purpose desire you might have. And understanding like, are you doing what you're doing? Are you going after things you're going after because of what you just want to belong to a group of people? Is that because your friends are doing that? Is that because whatever? And just being true to you in terms of like, okay, what is your goal and what would make you happy? And then reverse engineer every single decision based on how does it get me closer to my desire versus everything else that is going on around me? Because every big less than I've had, I was trying to, it was mostly governed by just fear of missing out. I think it's human instinct to constantly compare yourself to others. So reflecting on what you just said, what is your current vision for where you are and where you want to go? Yeah, that's a lovely question. So I am growing the management business down here. So we're still helping people buy cell and manage vacation rentals. I am looking for other assets in hospitality down here in South Florida, because again, I have the systems here and I know the market. And so I'm looking for another like 30 to 50 key boutique hotel, ideally closer to the beach because my apartments are out west. And so something that is more kind of beachy vibe. And then the other piece of it is with the Italian hospitality play is understanding, okay, as I'm transitioning more and more to living my life kind of hybridly between the states and Italy. What can I do? What can I create over there? There's kind of a mix of my loves and passion. And I love hospitality and I love real estate. And I think there is a lot that the states can learn about from Italy. And there is a lot that Italy can learn from the states. And so I think if I bring, I know that if I bring the American hospitality standard plus the Italian quality of living in a brand, I can create a chain of boutique hotels throughout southern Europe that would work really, really well. Yeah, let's jump into this. So a lot of listeners are aspiring hotel owners. They'd like to make that shift from short-term rental operations into boutique hotels. And I guess I want to understand, I want to know about this deal number one, but I understand from your perspective, you know, what changes? When you underwrite a boutique hotel deal versus a short-term rental, like what are some of the numbers that matter most? And in your opinion, what are some of the mistakes that short-term rental investors make when they look at their first hotel deal? They underbudget, like drastically underbudget in terms of rent. In what regard for what renovations? renovations, FFNE, just the level of detail and the level of the amount of things that you need for a boutique hotel versus an Airbnb. It's huge that design also is so much different, like you can't kind of have acid, like a lot of STRs. And again, less now because the market has gotten a lot more competitive around the design. But like as you're designing a 140, 60, 80 room boutique hotel has to be all a very holistic approach. Like you really gotta understand what then pirate thing looks like. And I'm really understanding what does the guest experience feel like? What does your team experience feel like? And really I'm making sure that you're understanding that you're stepping into hospitality even more. And your team is the most important thing for you because as a NSTR operator, maybe you've gotten away with getting involved in the business. If you buy 140 keys 10 hours away from you by flight. If my systems are not good, I can't hop over there and start doing little maintenance around my hotel. Right? It's not a sustainable way of looking at it. Well, I want to unpack some of these systems, but I'm eager. I'm chomping at the bit here to ask you a little bit more about this hotel deal. It's in Sardinia. It's located in your hometown. Where you were born? Yes, sir. What does this deal actually look like? Can you give me some details? Like maybe the ice range? Kind of like what your business plan is? Like, yeah, how did you find this deal? It's an ice sword in the middle of town. It's an old abandoned hotel. It was the hotel back in the day. It was been bought by some Russians back in 2011-2012. And they since have had litigations with their other partners. And then the Russia thing happened and the money dried out from their perspective. And so it's just this massive 140-key hotel in the middle of town that has just been abandoned for 10 years now. Oh, well. And so did you find this deal just by knowing that it existed or did a broker refer you? I saw it. Yeah. So I went to Sardinia this past summer for three months. And I had this idea of doing a boutique hotel in Sardinia. And I kept talking to brokers and I kept driving by displays and I kept talking to brokers and driving by displays. And I firmly believed that sometimes you get ideas, you know, those little moments of intuition that you drive by a place and like, this could be it. And you're like, nah, and then you drive by a couple of these leaders like, hey, and you're like, why do I keep thinking that? And so I just started asking. I'm like, what about this one? And people like, that's not for sale. I'm like, oh, do you know anybody that would know somebody that would know who owns it? No. And then I just kept asking all summer. And then I eventually met somebody, then you somebody that knew one of the owners. And that was the beginning of the conversation. You know, I love this. I think sometimes people over complicate the acquisition process. There is this idea and it's valid to go and look, I've got to talk to a hundred brokers a week. I need to go and underwrite, you know, a hundred deals a week. I need to scour the internet. Sometimes it's as simple as just trusting your intuition and going and knocking on the door. And quite honestly, that's how we got our two locations. We just frankly recognize an opportunity. You could see and feel that the properties were missing some love and attention. And you could just recognize the potential. And so you're right. I mean, the success rate of knocking on the door, one could argue, well, that's time consuming. But how time consuming is it to go and speak with all these brokers? Sometimes he just got to go a door knock. I'm not saying one method is better than the other, but it's interesting to me, especially in the smaller scale properties. If you try to go and knock on like a, let's say a hiate on the beach in Florida, you're probably not going to get in touch with whoever the corporate end Mr. Hiate. Yeah. Yeah. But some of these unique boutique style. In this case, you know, it's a band in hotel. I love it. Man, that's how a lot of us who are scrappy and kind of bootstrapping. This is how we can make connections and ultimately get deals done. Let's talk about this play though. You see this a basically a band in hotel. This is a great location. You know the area, you're comfortable because you grew up there. But what's the play? Is this a value ad play? Are you going to reposition this at all? Like what kind of renovation are you planning? Walk it? Walk in your tea details. I'm curious. One number that I don't have for you is what the purchase price is going to be just because we haven't finished negotiating. It's kind of spread and a wide kind of range between the 10 million euros and the 16 million euros. You can guess which one is my number. You can guess which one is the sellers number. It's an historic hotel. It was the historic hotel in town. I remember my grandfather bringing me there to the little bar that was at the bottom to get little pastries on Sunday. So it's a very emotionally tied hotel to the city. The goal is this. There has been a lot of five-star hotels that have been built in the area. This used to be one of the conference hotels in town that has never been replaced. There is not a big conference venue hotel that can welcome 253 hundred guests in terms of an auditorium. The game is the hybrid of not a five-star necessarily, but definitely bringing it up from the three-star that it was to a four-star. Because again, there is two new five-star hotels that have just been built in town that play a very, they have their niche. My game plan is either keeping it up, bringing it up to a four-star focus on the conferences and the events. Or do that same thing with a five-star. Obviously with a five-star, we require me to make some additional investments in terms of like a spa and all those type of things. But again, there is enough size that the space is there. And then the hybrid of the game plan is very simple. It's 140 key right now. It's a lot of keys. And so my idea is to transition some of the keys into apartments or condos and then doing a hybrid model of residences and hotels with the idea of potentially selling the residences and then putting them into an Airbnb kind of program within the hotel. Okay. So I think you said 10,000 miles away, right? I don't know how far away. So do you need 10 hours away? 10 hours away. Okay, that makes more sense. But we're going to list. It's not close. So who's managing this property? What's the game plan for that? That's a great question. So I have a lot of family on the island that it's been in hospital in different kind of sections and sectors to be honest with you, the actual game plan of the team. And that's the only thing that I want your audience to understand. And the bigger I've been playing in different arenas of business, the more you understand how through this is, dude, it's not a right now problem, right? I don't even have the L.O.I. sign. It's a year and a half to two year renovation. I don't know. I haven't even thought about that because again, I know the people they're going to be there. And again, it doesn't matter. If I want something and I'm deciding to do something, the circumstances, the details don't don't matter. Like, I'll find the best team and I'll put the people in place and need to be there. And then that's I believe in my skill sets in doing so. Does the deal work? The deal works. So my great, then we'll worry about the rest after. Because you don't, you don't know, like, I don't know who's going to be there. I don't know what the game plan is. Two years from now would I be living still eight months year and four months in Italy or would that a month are shifted by then? Who knows? So why stress about it? Well, I guess I just mean, you know, in your mind, you must have some plan in place that, well, I'm going to hire a third party manager. You're obviously splitting time between the US and Italy. And so I don't anticipate you're planning on being boots on the ground. So there's got to be some rough idea that, hey, third party manager. Yeah. I mean, there is definitely like that component. Again, I have a lot of family that works in hospitality over there. And so there is that element of like, okay, do I enroll my cousin that now does marketing for one of the big five stars hotel there to run the marketing department? Do I do a whole thing in house? In the meantime, would I have bought other things in Italy that make sense for me? Do I bring part of my hybrid V8 team to cover some of the stuff over there? It all depends, right? So ideally, again, I don't see myself as I build this hospitality brand. I'm not going to do the same thing I did in the past. And so I'm very clear in terms of like my roles. It'll be a visionary and a leader, money-raising and brand. And then trusting people and they need me to do everything else the same way I've been doing. Well, let's talk about that capital stack then because I think about purchasing properties internationally, the idea of financing a deal, it seems very complex. I think a lot of domestic investors, they haven't dealt with that. How do you propose you're going to finance the acquisition? Beautiful question. I have a bunch of partners in the US that I've been talking to about her. And so a lot of them I'm going to come from the States and go over there. And again, there is the larger division, the larger the net you can cast. Because again, I'm investor in the US is not going to be interested if you tell them, I'm going to buy a four unit bootie hotel in Sardinia. You're like, it's not enough. Buy 140 key historical tell that I'm going to renovate, do residences, right? So there is enough of a spread there. And then in Italy, especially in Sardinia too, there is a lot of grants within the regions for historic projects. And so a lot of the stuff they were working on with my partners back in Italy as well is understanding what kind of historic project and government grants we can get access to to purchase the asset. And so we're using kind of hybrid structure of bringing American money into Europe and then leveraging Italian infrastructure as well as my Italian business partners that I have there. So those are just family and friends that I know are interested in the investment and they have the liquidity and funds. Okay. So this might be some sort of a, I don't know if it's a grant or some sort of subsidy, but there could be some government involvement. You're going to raise private capital and is there lending in Italy? Are there banks that will finance properties like this? Yeah. They'll require you to put down 40 to 50 percent. Uh-huh. Typically is what you see. But there's definitely banks that will do it and especially again, in this particular project being that there is local regional banks. This would be a great project for them to associate themselves with. All right. Well, one last question. Let me ask you this. What's the first move you would make if you were starting all over again? My first response was to like just find a way to serve, serve people. Not focus on what you can get out of things but what you can do for people and really allowing yourself to be led by an attitude of service in what it is that you do. And then the other thing that I would tell you is just have a clear idea about what it is that you want. Like really become laser focused on like, not I want to be successful. What does that mean? Really understanding what the success look like for you. Really understanding the type of person that has it. Because again, right? Like we are so in love with generalizing big ideas. And the issue like that is if you think about it in terms of driving somewhere is like me telling you let's go for a drive and you're like, where do you want to go? You're like, I don't know, just drive. Okay. Where are we going? Well, I just want to go for a nice drive. Well, that sounds ridiculous, right? You got a specific 100% and most people are like, what do you want? I just want to make money. How much money? Yeah. Doing what? How much do you want to work? How busy do you want to be? I love it, man. What is this? I'm in a, generally a great conversation, man. I appreciate you being on the show. Likewise. Before we go, if anyone wants to follow what you're building and connect with you directly, where's the best place to find you? Instagram, ePani.mineset, that would be the best spot. Reach out if you heard me here. I'd love to have a chat with you and see how kind of support you. Yeah. Because where you find me? Sweet. Well, that is Imanu Elipani. And thank you for listening, everybody. If this episode has made you think differently at all about anything we discussed today or what's possible, look, leave us a review and go and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. And we'll catch you all again on the next episode. Aloha.