Hilary Duff: Life & Love After Lizzie

[swoosh] [music] What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper. With Call Her Daddy. Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. Hillary Duff, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thanks. You've been busy. I know. Girl, I know. You have been busy. I know. You're on tour? You have an album coming out for the first time in 10 years? I feel like my friends are really sick of me actually on their feet. They're like, "We don't ever see you, and now we do our Instagram is just full of you." They're like, "The internet is Hillary Duff right now." Every single time I open Instagram, TikTok, anything, I'm like, "Okay, Hillary. " You're like, "I get it. She's back. I get it." How are you feeling about it, though? Honestly, I'm enjoying it a lot, and I couldn't have asked for a better welcome. Everything felt so celebratory and kind and energized. That's just the word that I keep coming back to where I'm like, "Wow, I really didn't realize it was such an appetite, and you never know how it's going to go." I really took a huge break, and the first steps have been a dream. It's super hard, and the back half that's not shiny is a lot of moving parts, and a lot of scheduling, and a lot of work, and a lot of four kids and a family that I really like being with. That's what I'm so excited to talk to you about today, because I think there's probably so many women who are like, "We know we can't technically do it all, but it really looks like you're literally doing it all." Also, I thought it was funny. I was researching this morning, and everyone's kind of calling this like the Hillary-Duff Renaissance. They're like, "She's back." In what ways for you has this kind of felt like a rebirth or like a reintroduction of you? It's this combination of, for ever, my husband and I were just like, "This is going to be a sick victory lap," and we kept calling it that, and it's really cool to be at this stage of my life and just have ownership over myself, and what I feel about things and my opinion and what I will and won't do, and not knowing and having to ask, and just this whole. I'm just so much better and clearer, and to get to have the opportunity to go back and celebrate things that I didn't feel like were mine anymore is I'm just really looking forward to it. Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean by you didn't feel like they were yours anymore? It seems heavier than it is, but even thinking about what my set list is going to look like, and what songs I'm going to be comfortable putting on, and actually doing with my body on stage, or like singing lyrics of songs that are 20 years old, and being like, "How do I show up and just make this me?" And I think before rehearsals, it felt like those weren't quite mine yet, and I didn't know how to make them that way, and then I was just tearing it up, and I was like, "Got it, I'm here to eat," and it's easy, and I feel far enough removed from it, that I'm not embarrassed or uncomfortable, like, their mind, and their mind to keep, and even the with-love dance. That was the internet lore around the with-love dance. So good. So good, but for me, horrifying, absolutely horrifying, but now I'm like, "This is I get to be a part of it, and it's way more fun." Which I think is life. I've interviewed so many people that were child stars, and it feels like a pretty prominent theme in a lot of your lives is having enough distance from that really, really loud time in your life, that everyone remembers you from, or just that everyone can dig up. Yes, yes. Well, I would love for like, it's just, it's a heart, you gotta be tough, because that is to grow up and have everybody to recall all of your chapters is a wild experience. And have footage and pictures and commentary, tabloids, like everything you could imagine, that like everyone when they were in their awkward middle school phase that were like, "Thank God, like I didn't post that picture," you're like, "Well, it was posted of me, I didn't have an option." Correct. And I feel like what's so underrated is like, you have had decades of sustaining a career, which is very few people are able to maintain that. I feel like that's really nice, and there's been a lot of highs and lows in my career. Okay, well, we're going to go through all of them, but I did want to just, I was going to quote you, because I'm like, I get it. Like you've done moments where you're kind of like more in the spotlight, versus not, but you told Vogue last year that you operate from a place of, does anyone still care about me? I wanted you to talk a little bit more about what you meant by that. I think they're being a child actor, and doing something that made such a big mark on people's like literal soul. I've created a lot of confusion and like a pretty big battle scar on me, where I'm like, do people feel that, like playing a role on TV that never grows up, like she's just there forever, right? So getting into my like late teen hood into like my early 20s, and even like early 30s, where I feel like the battle of like frustration that like, do people love me, or do they love that character? But yet everywhere I go, people, you know, say, you raised me, or like whatever, and like, now I'm like, confident enough and like fine enough, and I think I love my new work enough to where I can like celebrate the old. You just feel like, wow, will I ever do anything that will like resonate with someone the same, and then you carry that as like a you're not good enough for it wasn't. You know, but meanwhile like I've had an amazing career like younger was career highlight love that show love that show so fun, so good people didn't really find it until it was like done. But like that was a huge part of my something that I said yes to that was really scary because I had to like be in New York and be away from my child and like, but like a huge growth period for me of like, oh, I'm doing something good and like stop measuring like I don't have to continue to measure all of my projects and the success that they've had. It's interesting you say that because I feel like some musicians I've talked to if they had a number one hit ever come out then they're like, shit, because you come out of the gate so strong, which a lot of people are envious of but you're like, but now that's kind of the barometer of like where I have to hit and having a Lizzie Guarang moment, you're like, change your life, change so many other people's lives, but now it's like, I hear what you're saying you're like, can I ever live up to that, which is why I think this era is so exciting for your fans. Basically today, I'm like, we need to give a little nostalgia. Of course. And then though I do really today want to get to know you more as the woman Hillary Duff, because I agree you've talked so much about your younger years. I love to visit her now. I'm good with it. Okay, let's go back to people who may not be familiar. You initially get the role of Lizzie McGuire. Can you just like kind of lightly tell the story of how that audition went and how you even got the role. Yes, so I actually had been replaced off of a TV show that was an ABC show. And they replaced me with twins so they could like work longer hours. And I was like, yeah, I was probably 10 years old. And I'm like, I got fired. Like, can you imagine? Because they're not two of you. Yeah. That is. By the way, when you're a child actor, you're like, you need two of me. Okay. How do I make that work? Like, you're like a dog. Like, just want to please, you know. So that was really devastating. And I was like, I want to go home. I don't want to be an LA anymore. I went back to Texas, started going to real school. And my mom called me and she was like, they want to see you for Lizzie McGuire. And I had auditioned for a bunch of Disney Channel shows before. So they were like familiar with me and called me a lot. I never booked any of them. And I was like, no, whatever. And somehow I got out to California. They like, I changed my mind. I got to see my friends for the weekend. Like my Oakwood apartment LA friends. And I was not prepared. It was a pretty big monologue. The audition. And I used to be pretty prepared and take auditions seriously. And I was like 0% prepared. And Robin Lipens, the casting director was like, you didn't even look at this. And I was like, correct. - I feel like sorry. - She's like, "Can you come back tomorrow and know this?" And I was like, "Oh, challenge accepted, let's go." And I worked on it, came back ripped in there. - As you showed. - She was like, "What are your special talents?" I was like, "Oh, I prefer to walk on my hands more than my feet." I think I was just wacky. And I think I came in with like mismatched clothing 'cause that was very me. And then I got it. - Wait, and how old were you when this was happening? - I think I must have been like 11 turning 12 or had just turned 12. And then we shot the pilot and then didn't shoot for a while. So I remember not getting my hopes up. I remember my mom being like, "Don't get your hopes up." Remember like what can happen? Like it's exciting, we're gonna be excited. But like. - Not getting fired at like 10 years old from a job. But first like that'll scar you. You're like. - Warping the star of the TV show. The TV show is literally called Lizzie McGuire. And you're like, "Hope it gets picked up." And if it doesn't like- - I'm a failure. - Probably I sucked, yeah. - Oh. - Yeah, like no pressure as an 11 year old, basically, 12. How do you think playing Lizzie as it continued? Like started to kind of shape and inform your personality? - I think that she was kind of like the everybody's girl. And I also feel like I've always been that. So. And also like a little, I have this very weird mixture of like I've always been confident in who I am. And I think that she had that. But she was also like kind of dorky and had all these, she didn't really fit under one category. And you know, that's why I think she was so like levable and endearing. And I feel like I've also still kind of carry that. But I just can like dress chic sometimes. You're like, my fashion has gotten better. Thank you very much, lovely. You Lizzie, but I moved on, okay? You can stay over there. I actually look chic as fuck. You do. Obviously I'm thinking about you even just being like, oh my god, like growing up in Texas and all of this. Like then the show becomes a massive success. And you quickly become one of the most famous young women in the world at the time. Like do you have any core memories of realizing like, oh my god, I'm now like famous. Like people know me. Yeah, I was at the fashion square mall about to hang out with my friends, which we did all the time. And there were Beverly Center too. There was like posters of Lizzie McGuire on the like circulating things. And I get like mobbed by kids. And like somebody that works at the mall like sticks me in basically like a cleaning closet or like some like closet where they keep supplies or like and just like pulls me into the back and they're like, you need to call your mom or call someone to come and pick you up. Hey mom, we forgot that like I'm basically famous now. I'm in the broom closet of the mall. Like can you come get me? I'm trying to act like a normal girl and it's not working out for shit. Wow. I know. And then after that, did you realize like, maybe I can't go those. But then the other thing that was happening was like, it wasn't that cool to be a Disney kid yet. Like now you're a Disney kid and you have like this massive career. That wasn't really, it's not like you have like mad respect 'cause you had a Disney channel show and you were like starting to be a singer. Like that was pretty everything. Talked about your life at home. You become this big star. Like how did it impact your normal life at home? Honestly, it didn't until later. Like some things changed later. But like, but my mom was pretty strict. She had this like weird combination of like she trusted us, but she was like, you don't get special treatment 'cause you're on a TV show. You know, like we had been out here kicking around for like four years pre me getting Lizzie McGuire. So like, I remember she would like take myself. Later when I was like 18, I remember she tried to take my cell phone away and I like sassed her so bad and I was like, I pay the bill. She was like, absolutely not. She's like sit down. You're like, okay, yeah. I feel like there's kind of like this known reputation you have as one of the few child stars who escaped the major pitfalls of Hollywood. Do you feel that way? Like do you feel like you got out pretty unscathed? Yeah, I think that there's no, I think that people look at me and think like, oh, she just had it easy maybe and I definitely have not had it easy. But I feel okay. Like I really just feel okay. I'm like, I did not like go crazy, I guess. And I think that a lot of that could have to do with my upbringing and feeling, you know, like I was protected when I was a child. But this industry is like really fucking hard and it's not until you're like, you take some space away from it that you can zoom in and be like, oh, that was a weird thing that happened. Oh, that was how did I get through that? That, you know, there's that and I think it's taken getting to this age to be like give myself, like actually take some credit for how I navigated it. What do you think for you internally? Like not all the noise, not all the people around you. What internally did you have to tap into to kind of get through that period in your life? So it's tricky. And again, it's been something that I've been able to like dive more into through like therapy and really being like, well, why did I do that? Or how can I feel this way? And if I, whatever, like the thing that was also cool about it is being a teenager and you're like, I don't give a fuck, I just wanna hang out with my friends. You know, like I had a desire to just be like normal and be doing normal kid things or teenager things and adult things. So it was this weird, those things were like existing at the same time and I think it was like a reprieve from not being able to like fully grow up or take the reins was like just escaping with the normal part of my life that I could go to. - Yeah, that makes sense. You kind of have to like find your outlet. - Yeah, and I like, you know, cared about my boyfriend and just like all that other stuff was annoying to me. - Yeah, and then eventually you would deal with it. - I did. - Okay, let's go through. We're about to move on from this younger phase of your life but I do need to know a couple of things. - Okay. - Are you ready? Okay, you're like, I don't know. What are you about to ask me? Okay, did you intentionally crash the freaky Friday premiere? - Oh my God. - Glor around this, Hillary. - I think absolutely yes. - Yeah, I was a teenager. - Wait, were you surprised when Lindsay Lowe hand showed up to the cheaper buy the dozen premiere? - No. No, I mean, that was like my childhood feel like, like nemesis, so crazy. - I know. - I mean, I can't wait. I'm sure my publicism is like, what the fuck are you doing? (laughs) But now it's so many years later, like who cares? It does not matter. Also, like Lindsay came up to me at a club once and was like, are we good? And I was like, we're good. She was like, let's take a shot. It was like, okay. - It was amazing. - But also like Chad Michael Murray invited me. Why would he, I don't want to start anymore stuff. But like, he was like, you should come with me. And I was like, probably I should. (laughs) - Honestly. - I mean, what was I like six? No, I think I was younger than that. - The Millennial girls are screaming at their TVs right now. - Next. - Is it true that you had military training for your role in Cadet Kelly? - Yes. - And they really took it that serious. - Oh yeah. - I just need you to know that I literally bought a car. - I think I could still do like a rifle, that you got a rifle on here. - Oh no. - But you remember. - I think I would remember some that like, tap, tap. How you like, handle it and like flip it around. And it was basically like a baton kind of. But with, well, there was baton. - We didn't use batons. - There were batons. - Oh yeah. - Oh, I remember. - Yeah. We were in a dance studio in Toronto, I remember. And like, Kristi Carlson Romano and I would like, walk from this hotel that they put all the like, actor kids up in in Toronto and go to this like, dance studio down the street. And it was really intense. - That movie was so good. - We were doing our own stunts, girl. - It was so good. I remember I like bought Cargo pants and like, was trying to be like that vibe. And I was like, what am I trying to do? Like I was in Pennsylvania, like literally trying to be you. And I was like, I need to stop. Okay, next. This is one of my favorites. You had an on-screen romance with Penn Badgley in Gossip Girl. I will never forget where I was when I found out Miss Hillary Depp was going to be in season three of Gossip Girl. I was shook. - I was in season three. - Season three. I know I looked up, 'cause I forgot there was like 90 episodes per season. How were you approached for the role and like, why did you want to do it? - I was approached by the creators of the show and they were just like, we would love to have you on Gossip Girl. And I was like, I love Gossip Girl. And yes. And by the way, I grew up with Penn Badgley. - You did. - Yeah, so I grew up with this apartment complex called Oakwood Apartments, and he was a lakeside kid. But sometimes we would all hang out. It'd be like, if you went to Campbell Hall, but someone goes to Oakwood and you like all. - And was this little actor vibes or just normal kids? And you just happened to-- - Some kids were normal, most of 'em were actors. - Okay, so you knew him immediately when you stepped on set. - Yeah, but honestly, that was a tough, I think they were all sick of each other by the time I got there. It wasn't like, oh my God, we're hanging, it's fun. I was like, oh, I'm showing up to a job and-- - Right, you're like, tension is pretty high right now. - It felt pretty high, yeah. - We need to talk about the threesome that shocked the worlds. Because when I tell you that threesome, I was like, to those who don't remember, it was Dan, Vanessa, and you. And the world was so pissed. Do you remember the world got really pissed? - No. - Because they were trying to force the Dan and Vanessa romantic vibe, when we were like, stop trying to make it happen, it never should happen. - Oh, okay. - And then I think you were in the threesome, like, hang out in the corner. And Dan wasn't like, he was going for Vanessa more. - I need to re-watch this. - I was gonna say, can you tell I've watched this? Like, I'm gonna be back. - Amazing, I was getting like, the shaft. - You were getting the shaft? - Because it was like, Dan and Vanessa, like, finding their romance. And you were like, Dan, like, why am I even here? - Like, I'm the famous one. Wasn't I like a famous actor? - You're a famous girl in it. - But I have to tell you something funny that happened, and sometimes it happens when I'm in Europe. And like, Lizzie McGuire happened later after my music in like Europe. - Oh. - Yeah, and so I wasn't like, totally known for Lizzie McGuire there right away. - Okay. - It was more like my music stuff. And then some people, I think Lizzie McGuire got huge there eventually, whatever. I was in Paris not too long ago on a girl's trip with two of my best friends. And my bag didn't make it. And the girl with airport was like, "Are you from Gossip Girl?" And I'm like, "Yeah?" And I get obsessed when things like that happen. So sometimes like weird Gossip Girl fanatics. - Wait, that's so good. - Isn't that funny. - You must be so happy in that moment. You're like, "Yes, I am from Gossip Girl." I remember what my name was. I don't remember what my lines were, what my scenes were, but I don't. - I don't remember what my name was. - Oh, that's so fun. - Dude, that fandom is so messy. - So can you get me my bag quickly? - Yeah, 'cause I was like in Gossip Girl. (laughing) Do you like, is that Lizzie McGuire? You're like, "No, Gossip Girl." - Honestly, so good. Okay, I heard that the actor who played Ethan Kraft invited you to his high school formal in real life. Did you go? - Yeah. Okay, I went to a lot of high school formal. Formals. - And at that point, you're famous. How did that work? - The school was really excited that I was there. And I was just like, "Yeah, I'm excited to be here. "I didn't go to high school or middle school." - You're like, "I'm taking it in." - Yeah, I'm like, "Look at all these people grinding "on the dance floor. "Me too, let's go." - Did people leave you alone? - Like, I think enough. - And also, you going with the Ethan Kraft character is kind of a mind-fuck because people were hubb-- - We went as like a group. - Okay, so it wasn't like-- - No. - Okay. - And did you guys ever have a thing behind the scenes? Okay, now, Ethan wasn't your vibe. - But he did have a parrot that scared me at his house. Like, "Okay." - Yeah, I showed up to the house and like, I didn't know that I was like standing behind a giant bird cage and the parrot like literally punked me and was like, "Bo!" And I was like, "Oh my God!" And like, the parent, like, knew how to like scare. - Ethan. - Good old Ethan, I'm like Ethan, Ethan and Kate. Okay, were you and Aaron Carter already dating before his cameo on Lizzie McGuire or did that like, bud on that set? - We weren't dating. - Also, this is where all this stuff started. There was no social media to be like, who was dating who? - Right. - Yeah, yeah, no, no. - So you just take people's word for it and then people get mad at you. - Wait, why? - I mean, if you're like Lindsay Lohan or me and he's like, probably dating both of us, like, you know what I mean? - Oh, I see, I see. Like, you could just put up an Instagram story. - No. - Well, we're clarifying now. - Also, texting was like pushing three buttons. - T9. - To get the, like, yeah. - Oh my God, you in Cinderella story, like, hey, what's up today? - And it takes you nine hours. - I just felt like a social, like, one of the-- - Like a TikTok? - Yeah, of that, doing something for something else. And we're sitting there trying to get the LOL to come up and I'm like, swaping at the screen and then someone was like, you need to stop doing that. What, does like, old phone cell phone? - To get LOL, you have to be like, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, but it's so crazy. - I called my son downstairs who's 13 and I was like, I just want you to watch what this used to be like for us. - He's like, I don't care. - He's actually so sweet and he, if he doesn't care, he acts like he does. - You're like, look what mommy had to do. That means like, we were dedicated. If you had a text that you wanted to send on T9? - I know. - If you sent a paragraph, you were in love with someone. - No, I know, it was like, that was a lot of effort. - That was a lot. - And what about when you would make a typo and like, have to go-- - And then you'd just like-- - You're like, back in the whole thing. - No, no, no, no, no. - It was dedication through and through. - Okay, so sorry, back to Aaron Carter. - Yeah, I had met him at his birthday party. I got invited to his birthday party. I'm telling you, the Olsen twins were there. Who else would have been there? I thought it was gonna be like this huge list. I could get you excited, but it was the Olsen twins. - Okay, yeah, so that's all that matters. - Me? - We're really happy. - Maybe Amanda Bines was there? - Yeah, I mean, it was like-- - The OGs. - Oh my God, Olsen's birthday. So I met him there, there was like, some cute sparks. And then I think I pitched the idea of having him come on the show. And then we started dating pretty soon after that. - I need everyone to go rewatch, 'cause I just did it this morning. - He was so cute. - I was putting my makeup on. The "I Want Candy" moment, where you and Miranda in the corner, and you keep doing this thing, where you're like putting your hand in your hair. - Why? - I know it's so good. 'Cause you can tell you like kind of like him. And he's like, "Ah, what can you do?" - In a full silver jumpsuit? - Full silver jumpsuit, your hair's like, and then your hair's all cramped. - Cramped, cramped. - And you keep going like this when he comes over to you. - Hillary, it's actually, it's like an actual landmark on the internet. Like I need everyone to go watch it, 'cause it's so cinematic also it like holds up. It was amazing. Okay, good to know. Okay, last one, Lizzie McGuire movie. It's important that you know like to this day, peak cinema, peak cinema. Like also back to you getting fired for not being a twin. Hi, hello, you got your revenge 'cause you ended up playing two characters. - Yes, my four year old is very like, how, but how? - Dude, how did you do that? I'm like. - You're like, "Don't worry." Okay, wait, so they have they seen the movie? - Yes, my four year old just watched it on a plane. I know, and when it was over, she just goes, I, she's sitting next to my assistant, and she was like, again. - No, all of us, she's literally all of us, again. Do your other kids like the movie? - Banks is like a Lindsay Lohan stan. (laughing) - No. - Yeah. No, honestly, Banks is like my number one like cheerleader to the max. So she obviously like doesn't know any of that stuff. I know, so it's, I know. - It's actually amazing. - Yeah. - What is their favorite project of yours? - I've not asked that. I don't know. - You don't know. - No. - Have you showed them everything? - No, I'm not like, let's go down, everybody sit down. - Stay away. - I forget that it's like not cool of a mom to be like, now let's watch my next project. But for me, I'm like, they haven't seen cheaper by the dozen. - I think Luca probably has seen cheaper by the dozen. I think he was probably more interested in that 'cause it was like boys and frogs and like football and you know, things like that. But they've seen some of it. My same assistant put on like bunked the other day. I know and I was like, you should probably be putting on the zoom acquire. - I feel like what are you doing? - Bunked. - You're like, you're a traitor. What is this? Turn on Cinderella story now. Oh wow. Okay, well we need to know when they actually see it. - My four year old has seen parts of Cinderella story and she's basically like, can we just get to the end of the dress? And she doesn't understand the mask and how he didn't recognize me with that mask on. I know. - She's like, that's you, mommy. And you're like, yeah. - She's like, but how would he not know? And I was like, no, I know. That's the age old question babe. - That's the best part. That's the best part of the whole thing. Okay. Thank you for going down memory lane with me. That was very fun. You gave us all we needed to know. (upbeat music) I mean, you started working so young. You were like 11 years old and you lived so much life at such a young age. How did that impact what you were looking for and what you were ready for in your 20s? - Oh gosh, I was, I was always like a relationship girl. So I was in like long term relationships my whole life really. Dating was not easy for me. And so around that time I met Mike. I met my first husband and we had so much fun. And that just felt like a really solid place to land, you know? - 'Cause you were 22 when you first got married. - Yeah, so I was like 19 when we met and we got married really young. And then I had Luca so young and I think I was like very, I always knew I was gonna be a young mom. I always wanted to be a mom. I always wanted a lot of kids. So that was really, it was major. I mean, that was a crazy time. Like to be pregnant at 23, 24. - How did you know you were ready for that with your career? - I didn't care about my career at that point. Mike was playing hockey. I was like going to live with him for like months at a time, wherever he would play. And we were just like having fun and I didn't really care that much about my career. - Having been so young and lived so much life, like what did it mean to you when you had a child? Like what, like when you had Luca, like did it change everything for you? - Yeah, big time. I was so excited to have him to focus on. My life had been like so about me. And like I didn't want all of that. I wanted, I think just something that felt like tangibly mine to hold on to and to focus on. And yeah, it was really fun. It was also really confusing. I had not a single friend who had a baby or was pregnant because obviously I was so young. My friends were like, are you serious, teen mom? What are you doing? - Wait, can you talk about that? 'Cause I think that's like very relatable where a lot of my audience is either the girl that is having the baby that none of their friends are at that stage or the reverse where all their friends are having kids and they're not like, how did that impact your friendships? - Well, my friends were all going out and stuff and I was like, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. And that was kind of hard, but I didn't really care about that as much. It was just, I think all the physical changes were a big deal for me. I think I gained like 50 pounds (laughs) I was pregnant with him and I'm five too. So that was like a wild just like, oh my God, what has happened to me. But I'm trying to think, one of my best friends, we've been friends for 20 years now. I remember she walked into my door late and I was like, I think you expect everyone to get it when you have a baby and no one gets it. And you're like this made, like all of a sudden, I'm on a schedule and like, if you don't know what it's like to be on a schedule 'cause you don't have like a family yet, 20 minutes late and like, this isn't like us a year ago. This is me now where like, my baby, like I nursing a baby is not just like, oh, you're like, my milk's coming in and I've got to get like, get this out. You know what I mean? And then the baby goes on for an app and if that doesn't happen, I get not a single minute to my day. So like looking forward to seeing your friend and then then being late, you're like, it's over. We can't hang (laughs) and then also the nerves of like, now I would be like, come, it's all good. - But you're your first kid. - Your first kid. - You didn't know what you were doing. - Yeah, you're just nervous. So my friends, sorry, the part of the story was that my friend like watched me like nurse my baby. My boobs were like huge and you're, you know, it's all like clunky and new and whatever and she text me and she was like, I don't even, it's crazy to not recognize you. And I was like, oh my god. - I know and later I was like, you hurt my feelings so much by saying that. But I know you didn't mean it. Like it must look insane, right? Like I'm like, nursing a baby and we've like grown up together and now this like crazy thing happened. It feels like you're like a new person to her. And really all you probably need at that moment is to feel like you have changed. - Because it's like, you just solid and have a hang. - Yes. And like not feel like you're this outsider because everyone in your life feels like. - I'm like, I want to hear who you just hope with. And I wanted like things to be normal but nothing's normal. - Right. Can you also share a little bit more about like, how your body image was affected by pregnancy? 'Cause I think that's like, I have never had a kid and I do, I would love to have kids at one point but I think for women it's so hard because it's like you're expected to be everything for everyone and you go through this like extreme change in your life. And women then it's like the bounce back thing and what do you look like? Like how did you manage all of that? - I don't know because I dealt with a lot of. I remember being I think in Mexico with my mom or something like four months after I had Luca and we had like a private home there that we were staying at and a proper Nazi got a picture. And they were like, Hillary debuts post baby bod and I was like babe, I'm not debuting anything. You're taking a picture of me at a private house when I think I'm with my family and my baby and like it's horrendous. So that's like so messed up and I feel like it's getting better and as I've had subsequent kids like you're just like, oh I recognize this, I know what it is. It's hard to get through this phase but it's all like it's all fleeting, you know what I mean? And so the more times I've done it, the less like wait it has with like dealing with your body changing and you kind of, I don't, you know, normal people don't have to like have the noise but you're sensitive. It's really hard, you'd look different, you know, forever. And you're like feeding a child and you're supposed to know exactly what to do and you don't know exactly what to do and things don't always work out the way, you know, where's the pressure to feel like a natural mother like is is a lot, you know? - You had mentioned I think that you, like nursing for you in the beginning was difficult and again, like as women, if it doesn't go exactly as they tell you on the internet and according to plan, like sometimes there can be like shame around that. Like how did that impact your self-esteem? - I still could cry thinking about like just not being able to be, you want to be everything for your kid because you grow them and you birth them and they're yours and you watch, you know, reels of like people just nursing their baby in public and it being so natural and like it just wasn't like that for me and I every time you like, we would like wait, this was with towns mostly but like she wasn't gaining weight and I'm trying to like nurse her literally around the clock and that's my fourth kid, like just supplement. What are you doing? Like, you know, and you're just like I was so stubborn about it, I just wanted it to work out and it didn't and like then you're two weeks out of like not nursing and you're like, yes, this is the best freedom ever but in that moment you're like, how will I ever cope with this? How will I, why can't I be good at this? And you know, Luca I nursed him the most. It was easier then and like down the line, I just each child got less and less and less and now I'm like, who cares? But in the moment it's like you're so consumed and I think by design, right? Like we're designed to take care of our child by feeding them from your body, but like guys have to do one thing one time. So my husband says he's like, I did one thing one time and like you have to do all of these things and then it's all on you, which is a lot and I even have friends I know that will be watching that are going through that phase right now but it's like it is helpful to hear from someone so many people look up to and grew up with that they're at a similar stage right now where it's like hearing other women talk about it I think is like half the battle 'cause it is so isolating and to just hear you even say like it actually got better as I just kept going 'cause even if it didn't actually get better I got better at handling how hard it was, which is life, right? Speaking of hard things, so you're in a different place than your friends, you're a young mom, you're scrutiny online, you're body, you're figuring all this out and then you go through a divorce. - Yeah. - And your child is not even two. - Not even two. Without obviously I know you have a co-panner in Ting dynamic and I don't want to speak at all negatively about him, how did you know that it was time to walk away and that the marriage was over? - Oh gosh. It just got to a point where it wasn't gonna be. Like we, we just, I think he was good with it 'cause I was like, here's this, this, this, like, you know, and he was like, great, like we're, this was before conscious uncompaling was a thing and my parents went through such a bad divorce that I was like calling it made it really painful but like we're not together anymore. So obviously it was bad enough that it just wasn't, it wasn't working. And that was a really tough call because we had not even two-year-old kid. And I remember doing everything in my power to like have it be peaceful and have us hanging out and spending time together and every time we would, you know, trade, it wouldn't just be like a drop-off pickup situation we would like go to the park and hang or go. go have a meal, it was really important to me to do it in a way that Luca could feel like comfy. I can't remember the exact time I was like going to call this, you know, but it happened pretty fast. It was just, it was a, like, you know, it was not, it wasn't working anymore. But I remember the one thing that was really hard about it was like processing that it was happening and it was going to happen and going through all of those emotions and it was a really, it was a really scary time to just not want to fuck up your kid. You put like all of your stuff aside and I had to like deal with all of that later to just make sure that like he was okay. And then, you know, you file for divorce and TMZ literally has like an office at the LA Courthouse. So they see every single paper that goes through. So like within 50 minutes, they're like reporting. And then you have to like process it along the world, alongside with the world, you know? I did not realize that about TMZ. That's actually insane. Yeah. But like when do you think and how did you do it in terms of like almost like morning, what you thought your life was going to look like, I think is very relatable. And then you kind of don't have control over it, you had to make a decision for you and your family and your kid. Like when do you think you were able to actually mourn that loss, essentially? I haven't ever thought about that. I think probably when I started like dating again, like my divorce was finalized and we were, you know, co-parenting and stuff. Like I think it was just something, I had a lot of therapy. Like I, that was a very helpful tool to help like confront the feelings that would come up, you know? I was 26, 27. No, I was 27, 28. And that's such a crazy time. You know, like that's a very fun time of your life. And I started to like allow myself to have fun through something really painful. And I feel like that's actually a very heavy theme in my life. Like this record, there's a lot of like heavy themes. Disguised as like joy because it's pop music. And I feel like that is a huge part of like how I operate. Like this big thing can be happening over here and it's really hard and it's a struggle. And I'm going to sort it out. And sometimes I might push it down and deal with it later or like I'm going to be tackling it right now. But like I genuinely, I'm like such a happy person that I seem to be able to like get through things. That's how you clearly survive those hard moments, right? You're like, I'm going to choose to see the positive in life. Yeah. To keep it moving. Also, I think I knew from my parents divorced that like I was going to show my kid that you got it like fight for your happiness. And I knew that it was going to be better to do it when he was younger than it was going to be when he was like five and aware or eight and aware. And then kids put like a whole different element of like guilt on themselves for like their marriage not working out. I was like if Luca cannot remember this and have two lives that exist that he can be happy in and feel like secure in, I think we're winning. Yeah. What do you think overall? Because I know you're saying you're a positive person, which I think is like a great lesson for people. But for you, if someone is going through a divorce right now, like can you describe your lowest moment and then how you got out of it through that to anyone who's maybe at that low point right now? One, you have to have a therapist. You have to be talking. You have to be processing the feelings. And you have to stand up for yourself. I think that was just the thing. I was like I have to just stand up for myself. I have to. And the same thing could have been going on for him. Like so I'm not just like oh I up and left. Like it was a collaborative thing that needed to happen. But you you got to fight for yourself and it doesn't matter that you have kids. Your kids. Your kids are going to be okay. You just have to show them that like you also met. I think that that was a big thing for me. It's like when you have kids, you kind of become so all consumed by them and they get your everything. And it was important for me to not let that be a factor because a two-year-old can't decide that and know what's you know what I mean? So it's really good advice. It's like you matter too and actually by showing. But once you become a mom, your guilt becomes so thick that like you don't actually the there's like this part of your brain where you're like yeah I'm still in here and I'm still me. And then there's like this huge shadow over it was like but everything for the family and everything for your kid and you know and and that's a good it's I think again it's by design. But it's a constant conversation to like choose yourself and choose something you know that you enjoy outside of family life and kids. Because eventually what you're also showing them is like you're leading by example because then they will choose themselves hopefully if they're ever in that situation because they're going to have watched you do it. I think that's absolutely right. Like I had to go drink a martini last night instead of stay home with my family. It's just a little thing a lot and I try to still give them everything but like I had to have that dirty martini last night. Mom needed it. I'm gonna blame you Hillary. I love it. Okay so you eventually start dating. You get out of this marriage you start dating and then you eventually meet your now husband. Should we call Matthew Matt? What should we call Matthew Matt? I call him Matthew when I'm like talking about him. I don't know why I feel so sophisticated Matthew. My husband's name is Matthew too. Oh okay how did you guys meet? We got set up from my A&R person. I was at RCA for a nanosecond and my RCA my A&R person there set us up on like a work date. Okay and was it an immediate connection or was it like a slow burn? It was pretty immediate but like we kept it respond like we weren't like outwardly flirting but I was like wait this person's so fun to talk to and our meeting was like two hours long. I know and then I was like oh my god I've got it like got a child that I might have to go. But we were just talking like music and you know taste and like I was a quarter of the way through like making a record and it was just he was definitely cute. I was he and then I found out like a month ago that he sent an email that he found and sent it to me and he wrote his manager and was like two hours with Hillary. I think I'm in love. You're like laughing but you're also like I literally felt the same way but I didn't put that in writing. We that's amazing. I know. So you both felt it immediately kind of. Yeah and I think we were like lirty but not like you know when there's just like a ping pong vibe that's happening but you're not like like is this person just like this fun to talk to or like are they are feelings. Yeah it was like that and I was going to sweeten for like a half a month or something to work on some music and he we were like chatting during that time and then I came home and we're like recording two songs that he had written and there was a lot of he was very sweet. I was like sick for one of them and he had brought me like all these like honey's and teas and cough drops. I know and then and you guys hadn't hooked up at this point yet. Nope. Nope. We hadn't hooked up yet and then he asked me to be as Valentine. I know but I already had plans with Luca and I was like sorry I can't because I have a date already and then I just like took a picture of Luca and sent it to him and he was like okay I accept. So I think we had like a date maybe a few days after a week after something and it was great but he was so nice to me and I remember being like like after a few times we had hung out it was like he's just so nice. That's not really a thing. So you thought it was like almost a red flag that he was too nice. I think I was just like not ready to accept all of that yet. I was like coming out of that like a long relationship a divorce like I was just like chaotic. Yeah. I think I needed some chaos first. Yes. Meeting a nice guy that's actually gonna treat you well you're like wait can you pause for two seconds. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be back. Yeah. Totally. Okay wait so who made the first move move? Him. Okay. Then I broke up with him. Okay hold on. Okay. I feel like there's so much you guys have said like very on and off again. You broke up with him then didn't he break up with you like can you kind of just take me through what the hell happened. Yeah. So okay so I don't know know how long we dated maybe like three months or something. Honestly, we had a bunch of fun during that time. And then I was like, got to go. You need to go like handle. He had some personal stuff he needed to work on. I was like, I have a child. Like, I don't know what excuse I use. Simple should excuse. But I was like, sorry. I know. You're literally perfect. I got to go. Yeah. Hillary. OK. So that was like maybe six months separation. And then what? How did we? OK, he's also obsessed with, do you know the band Dawes? No. OK, Dawes is this amazing band. They're like his heroes. And now they're like his best friends. Because Taylor is married to Mandy Moore. And I've known Mandy Moore my whole life. But we were never running in the same like friend circles. But I would like see her like TRL or like, I know. So throw back. Know each other, but like aren't really friends. And so we hadn't spoken in a long time. And he texted me out of the blue. And he's like Taylor and Mandy married. And I was, but we didn't know them yet. We weren't friends with them yet. He was just like creepy updating me on their life because he's so obsessed with Dawes. And I like, I will never forget. I was pulling out of like a grocery store parking lot. And I almost wrecked my car. I was like, wait, am I actually getting this text right now? Text right now. And then it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. We're back. We're back, baby. Oh. Yeah. And then we were together for like three months. Things were like very surface. And I didn't like that. I was like, I need-- I think maybe because I broke up with him, he was like, is she going to do it again? Enough, like, I don't know. And I think coming from like also a broken household, I was like, let me push this guy and try to poke all the holes in it that I can to see if he's going to like stick around. Do you know what I mean? Relatable, yes. And so we go to New York and I'm like on a work trip. And I-- it was like a wine event where I had to like basically drink wine all day and like host like a dinner party, like not a dinner party, but like a garden rooftop party. Oh my god. What a great-- So fun, except for like, you know those press days where you like basically don't eat? Yes. And then you're drinking. And you're just talking to people and you're like working. Yes. You're like, by the end, I was like, I am-- You're seeing stars. Two sheets to the wind. Yes. Yes. And then we go to dinner and it was like in Oma Kase. And I had like had more wine, whatever. I pick up some fight. We get into it. I don't even know exactly what I said, but he left the next morning. I know. Yes. She's up and left. Uh-huh. I mean, we had a discussion and he was like, bye. He let-- he kind of like hit me with his bag on the way out the door and left the door open. We were in the garage-- we were at the garage hotel. And the doors don't like automatically close there. So it's like an awkward like-- And I was like, did you just leave the door open? And he's like at the elevator literally, I know-- The drama. I know. I'm leaving. You left me once I'm leaving you. It's my turn. I think that it leveled the playing field in a really good way. But then he wouldn't speak to me because he's a crazy Gemini. And I was like, I just want a moment to like say, I'm a Libra. I need balance. That was like a crazy night when I really-- that's not really like who I am. So I was just like, I want to genuinely like say, sorry. You don't have to like, this is not me like pleading to get back with you. I need to like just make it right. And like genuinely like apologize, whatever. But it speaks to me. Then that made me mad. And I was like, literally, it's been a week, a week. And then I text him and I was like, your guitars will be at the guard gate, pick them up at this time. He must have gotten them. We didn't really like talk, whatever. And then he words with friends me like a few months later. You're lying to me now. And I was like, wait, again, I almost wrecked my car. I was so excited. Wait, words with friends is also-- why did I also have that with an X, where we would like kind of communicate that way? And you're like, what are we doing? Just pick up the fucking phone and call each other. I know, but it's kind of fun. It is. You got that in the case. And he's so good with words that I was like-- I mean, obviously, I always get beat. Right, but you're like, OK, here we go. Yeah, and that was right before my 30th birthday. So he was like at my 30th birthday, which was so nice. And it was like this really lovely moment where I like looked around my party. And I was like, everyone that is here means so much to me. And it has been such an important part of my story and my growing, and it's not like a 70th birthday, but 30 is a big deal. So it was nice. He was there for that. And then literally, we were going away. Where's the place with all the red canyons in Utah or something? Oh, yeah. I'm on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were there. And I remember on the way back, we're on the airplane, I was like, when do you want to have kids? And he was like, probably like 35. And then I was pregnant like two months later. And I was like, god, yeah. Oh, wow. OK, wait, I feel like one of the themes in your album is abandonment wounds. And to have this be on and off again, and then to finally realize, like, this is your person. And he realized you are my person. How did you work through those wounds? Because it's hard. And I feel like a lot of women listening will be like, wait. Honestly, I think what worked was me just trusting him. And that's just time. Really a lot of time. Obviously, three pregnancies is a lot on a relationship. And especially one-- like, I feel like I come with a lot of baggage. And I think just that he's willing to really be there and shelter my emotions and my story. And he just kept showing up over and over. And I was like, cool, once I could get through that, like, now we get to really have the fun. Like, because I just fully trust him. And that was so hard to get to that place. And there was no secret recipe but just time and trusting my gut that, like, I made it a good decision. And that it's real. And that, like, a person actually just cares about me. Like, it's really hard to accept that for some reason. But how beautiful that he-- then he proved it. Yeah. Over and over again, like, he's so-- he rides really hard. And it's really cute. You were pretty candid about saying, like, you didn't know if you wanted to get married again after everything you'd been through, like, how did you change your mind? Well, I always knew I wanted more kids. And I knew he'd be an amazing dad. Once I finally introduced him to Luca, he-- I think it was around Halloween. And he, like, showed up as, like, head to tone intro turtle. I know. And I was like, oh, my god. That's really cute. That's so cute. He leaned in. He leaned in. And he was just really, really patient knowing that I was, like, not ready to introduce him for a long time. When we became parents to banks, that was the big-- I was like, oh, we're good at this. This feels right. And then I always knew he wanted to get married. And he's, like, kind of a traditional guy like that. And I don't remember when the time was. But I always would be like, we can get married at 60. Well, we can be, like, old, and all of our kids can be there. And he would be like, OK. He wasn't ever asking me, but we would talk about it sometimes. And then randomly, we were in New York shooting younger. And I sent him a picture of a ring that I really liked. And I was like, maybe I could see this on my young cute hand and not my old, 60-year-old hand. And then he proposed two months later. So sweet. Not only are you guys husband and wife, but you're also collaborators and business partners, I want to ask about your new song, "Romates," which, you know, it talks about losing the spark and intimacy in a relationship. What was it like working on this together? One, he doesn't shy away from heavy topics that are uncomfortable when it comes to songwriting. Of course, we're like a normal couple. So I love that opening line of the song. It's like, I can barely mention it without causing some ego trauma. And it's like, he's a man. And they all are. And even if the tables were turned, it's hard to be in a relationship with someone and call out something that's not working. If, like, for the most part, it's good, but you're like, I feel really stuck right now. I'm not feeling the way that I want this to feel or whatever. So it's hard because it feels like an attack. So it's just hard to have communication that is healthy. It helps you get what you need or want without bruising the other person, especially in a family where you're working overtime to make everyone's needs matters. just make the household float, you know? And I don't want to always like relay it to a family because everybody gets in that, you know what I mean? Like anybody in a long-term relationship, or even something that's like six months where it was like really sparky in the beginning, starts to like life starts to feel normal and you're like, wait, I missed that thing. Right, it's like, it almost has somehow become like people get like shy or embarrassed to admit like, guys, everyone feels that when you're in a long-term relationship or again, like the honeymoon stage is over, every I would say long-term relationship goes through a moment where there's a shift in intimacy, right? And to actually maintain a healthy long-term relationship, you have to first acknowledge that's going to happen. And not just like leave when it's not working, but then you also have to talk about it, which is the awkward part you're kind of saying because like it is so uncomfortable to be like, can we talk about our sex life? And like one person is wanting it more, one person's wanting it less or one person's initiating more and like, that's the most vulnerable, I think one of the most vulnerable things that you can talk about with the partner. I know. But once you open the door to that conversation, it is life changing. Yeah. And it does, I don't mean it's like easy every time, but like, do you have advice going through this writing process, going through it together and talking this through for anyone who is like, how do you navigate those conversations and not have it lead to a fight or someone's feelings getting hurt? It's just like being a healthy communicator and being able to like, I think one of the things I struggled with and where like roommates kind of came from was like, it wasn't even necessarily like his problem. I was having a hard time asking for what I needed or being like, being in a place where I was like, felt like I couldn't like share, or like was like ashamed of the like needs that I had, you know. I think it's just being able to like be open and not and not like blame someone. Like communicating without blame is like a really, it's like an art form. Quite literally. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. That's it's almost like sometimes it has nothing to do with your partner. It's actually like all on you of like, this is something I've been thinking about. Yeah. And now I need to make sure that when I'm saying this, it's coming out in a way that's not, I wish you would or it's actually like, I need and I, I want and that starting from that place is such a healthier place to communicate it. So they're not immediately shut down and feeling backed into a quarter like they're doing something wrong, which is beautiful. Also, I think that women have like such intuition and such a, oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, like, just, you're just in tune. You just know and I remember calling his mom and being like, why doesn't he know? I know. Every woman in the world like, why don't you know? They're like, I don't know. But if you tell me, I'll fix it. Right. And it's so simple, but you're like, I don't want to have to tell you. How don't you just know exactly what I'm feeling? Making more work for me to have to tell you. They're like, she literally like, I forget what some of the post it's would say, but she'd be like, babe, put a post it up and just remember, you got to, you got to tell him. You got to ask for what you need. You have to, whatever, I know. And then they think so much better when I was like, stop when I didn't expect him to just know. It's like, we want them to be able to read our minds, but like, they can't. And so once you just start communicating it so much easier, but then you're already coming from a place of being annoyed that you're like, I've been suffering. It's like, I didn't even know that. And you didn't notice? They're like, no, yeah. Talk. Say something. Yeah. Um, the lyrics also in the song, reference porn, and masturbating. And it was pretty crazy to see the way some of the internet responded. I know. People were like, some people were absolutely shocked and outraged that you were speaking about these things. How did it make you feel to see that some people really were still expecting you to present in this squeaky, clean child star image that they watched you as a young girl have? Well, I think that probably my initial reaction was like, oh, they just haven't like evolved. Yet, you know, and I don't care at all. One of the craziest comments that I saw was like, and do you do that in front of your children? And I was like, no, what are you okay? No, but guess what? Like, the song is meant to be polarizing. It's not meant to like be raunchy or like get attention because of what I'm saying. Like, it's a, it's a plea. And like, I think that's relatable to women. And so, you know, I have never given head in the back of a dive bar. Sadly, there's always time. But you happen. But you get to take like, like, lierical, like, liberties when you're writing a song and you're creating art. And it was, it was important for me that the song felt like very polarizing, because that's, that's how it feels in a moment of a, of a lull in a relationship where you're just like, I need, I need to sort this out. I need to get through this. I can't keep feeling this way. And yeah, so yeah, it was really wild to see some of the, I think for the most part, it was good, but then of course, like all the comments that stand out to you are the negative ones. It also funny because I feel like from the internet, what I saw was at first, it was all positive. And then as people like really started to dissect the lyrics and had like more time to sit on it, they're like, did she say masturbate? Did she say porn? And everyone's like, yeah, Hillary Doff said the word porn and everyone's like, it's almost like just like the bandwagon. It's like so fun for them and easy to just like get on it. And you'd be like, yeah, that's kind of crazy. I, what I also took from it. Or like, do your kids sing that? And I'm like, I'm not making music for my kids. I'm not making music for seven year olds. I'm making music for myself. I'm making music for people like myself. So, you know, I was singing crazy lyrics when I was young too, that I had no idea what they meant. And if I was like, I'm not making a children's record. Again, I think there's an image people have of you being a child star. That's like on them. It's not on you. I also thought it was ironic that, you know, they're so shocked that you're singing about sex as an adult. But then when you rewind as a teenager, you had reporters asking you, have you lost your virginity? Are you sleeping around? So, it's like, it's never, women can never win. It wasn't appropriate when you were underage that people were asking you these things. And now that you have autonomy and you're an adult, people are now so fixated on like, how dare you talk about sex? And it's like, wait. What do you want from me? She's four kids. Do you guys think that she doesn't have sex? Yes, every time. How do do I'm curious? People having always something to say about you and your sexuality and whether it was your virginity or you're hooking up. And then now, like, how has that impacted your sexuality? I don't think it like impacted my relationship with sex. But I think it's just been another one of those things that comes along with my career that I didn't really ask for. And I've had to learn how to just accept. But it was really hard as a young girl because I was like, coined the good girl. And everybody was like, she's the good girl. She's the good girl. And like, just having to label someone. And then do everything they could to try to poke holes in that label. Or try to figure out anything they could that was like, somewhat negative or bad. You know, it was like, they were just trying to create stories. And it was hard to be like, one, okay, I've been labeled the good girl, like, but I'm also just normal doing all the normal things that teenagers are doing. And trying to just kind of exist without accepting those things to be true about myself maybe. Or having any sort of like privacy, I think, was just like really hard. And yeah, I remember that time that person like asked me if I was a virgin. And I was like, I think also as a child, after your condition to like, want to give people what they want. You know, so like answering something like that felt like really wild. We did you answer? I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember it being said. And it was like a stir of like publicists and like a crazy, you know, it's like so inappropriate. Beyond. Yeah. That stuff I don't think flies anymore. No. But yeah, I was definitely in the middle of that like crazy press time where people would ask you whatever. And that's why I'm so happy that you're taking your own liberty of like, I am going to talk about things in my life. And it's okay if everyone doesn't want to accept it. But don't just not accept it because of an image you have of me as a young girl because that's actually just weird. Yeah. You have a song also called We Don't Talk and you kind of basically say don't know when it happened, not even sure what it was about, which is, we're really, really relatable. I think it kind of seems like you're talking about and correct me if I'm wrong. When a relationship falls apart and when you have time away from it, you look back, you're like, "Wait, why did we lose touch or how did that exactly go down? How do you approach those type of dynamics in your own life? Are you the person that will reach out or do you kind of retreat and not try to mend something if it's broken?" I will reach out. You do. Have you had to do that a lot in your life? Yes. Has it always felt like, "Oh, you made the right decision or have you been kind of bitten in the ass ever?" I think I get bitten in the ass sometimes when it doesn't unfold the way that I was hoping, but I think that I think one thing that I appreciate about myself is that I will always try and I always try to keep a heart open and a heart forward and try. As a 38-year-old who's navigated the industry since I was nine years old makes me feel healthy. It's easy to get jaded and really rough around the edges and I don't feel like I am. Obviously, you are a very public person, so people are constantly trying to dissect your lyrics. A lot of people have been thinking that this could be about a family member of yours. How do you feel when you see those things online? I think there was no way for me to make a record after 10 years and not dig into what those 10 years of look like and the big things that have happened and that affect me and that make me who I am. Fortunately, a lot of that has been not great stuff and that's life. It sucks that I'm not an adult coming up, coming out with an album that people don't know my story and all the players in it. People have known everybody in my life since I was on Lizzie McGuire. They know my mom, my sister, my dad. We have a small family. People are interested in that for some reason. It's really sad, the kind of where we are right now and scary to share it because of the internet. But important for me, I'm just saying how it feels for me and that was something on the record I really tried to accomplish is not placing blame anywhere. It takes everybody involved for things to be where they are. But I was just trying to talk about how it feels for me and reach people because it's real and a lot of people share a similar story and yeah, it's never easy to see people speculating on your life for clicks. But it's easier to tune the noise out with like having the household that I have and that like soft landing and that all the love and you know, I've created that family. I'm so proud of like that makes all of the things that I've been through like okay. Yeah. When you put out songs like that, like where do you, has it felt cathartic and kind of like chapter clothes or are you hoping it could maybe like spark some type of like reconciliation or conversation. My purpose for making my record was for myself and I think that like you always hope for something to be healthy again, you know, and something to be good again. But I don't know if like, I don't know if my me being honest and vulnerable will, you know, be met with openness or anger or what it could, you know, there's many different options there. And I think I had to just let go of an expectation and do what I wanted for me. And that's that, you know, it's a painful thing to talk about. Yeah. It kind of reminds me almost of like you earlier in the interview said, God, I do love doing this so much, but I do love my life and the privacy and it's almost like, well, I don't know if you've noticed, but like even since I started like being more like forward-facing with my music, like the internet is like a buzz with like everything they can possibly dig up. So it's, it's a lot very strange. I have a list of things that I'm like, shit, like you've been a hot topic of conversation, messed up, like you have been. I'm like, okay, so we go through the family thing now, one of literally the noisiest things on the internet. That's what I have to ask just because it's been so fricking noisy. It's been everywhere is an article was written about a toxic mom group and it literally took the internet by storm and every single person was talking about it and then through speculation and then people connecting the dots. Like it kind of, I don't really think people had to connect very many dots. It took like a day, not even. Right. How did you feel when it came out and when you read it? Um, I felt really sad. I honestly felt really sad. I was like pretty pretty taken aback and felt just like sad. Like I love, I have, I have so many groups of friends. I'm so lucky. Motherhood has brought on like I have my like core group of friends who have been my writer dies for 20 years, 10 to 20 years. And I have like tons of different groups of mom friends because I have four kids. You know, so um, I think I just was like, whoa, it sucks to read something that's like not true. And it sucks on behalf of like six women in all of their lives. Then the podcast started a little bit more. Our boy, Matthew. Yes. Posted an Instagram story kind of then addressing back to it. Did you know he was going to post this? No. How did you feel when you opened your phone and hubby had chimed in? Honestly, everything he does makes me laugh. So I was like, oh my god. Oh my god. But I also don't censor him. And I don't tell him what he can and can't post. Um, he is so like fierce for me. And like, I love him for that. Um, is there anything on that that you want to clarify? Because obviously all the rumors and everything and like you have been in the center of it, like is there anything else you want to just like clarify on that topic? No, okay. I think it came at like the craziest time where I was like my like the timing felt not great. And I felt used. Like would this have happened? Had you not had your big resurgence and everything going on with you? Okay. Moving on. Um, okay. Like we've talked about 10 years since you released an album. So I'm curious, if you were to picture your dream life 10 years from now, what would it look like? Well, cool. Okay. Anytime I look into the future, I like to think about Thanksgiving. And like what the table looks like. Are you hosting? Always. Okay. 10 years. It's November. You're hosting. Yeah. What does it look like? Like, like my kids have their like boyfriend or girlfriend there or like bestie or what like it's just full. The table's full. The like the seats are full. We're going to play like some dumb game later. We're drinking wine. Like it's just, you know, everyone's there. And so I would like to have toured the world maybe twice. Probably made another record. And like figured out a way to juggle like having this and also having a home life still be like, it's so fun to watch my kids grow up. Like it's just the best thing ever. I love having babies. And it's really hard to think about not having a baby in the house anymore. But like as they grow, they just get so cool. So I think I just hope to continue having the relationship that I have with my kids and the home life that I have. But like I think I'll work I'll work forever. Everyone's a always like, what about the Lizzie McGuire reboot? And I'm like, like, it's not interesting to me at like 40. It was interesting to me at like 30. But like, maybe it's interesting at like 55 or 60. You know, like, I don't know, maybe I'm doing that. - It wasn't, none of us are gonna be mad at you. We're like, we're ready whenever you're ready. We're like, we'll be seated. - Also, I would love to have more time to just like, do the things I want with Matt. Like we get very little time. - Prioritize your relationship. - Yeah. - Can I talk about that a lot? - Well, if I see you in 10 years, I may be like, did you do these things? - What are you guys doing? - I interview like the day after Thanksgiving. 10 years from now, we'll put on the books. How, if you have any, could you share some advice on, I know you can't do it all, but we are sitting here and like, you've had such a successful career. You are continuing to have such a successful career and you have four kids. And I think there's probably a lot of women that are looking at you being like, it does kind of seem like you have it all and you're doing it all. And like, do you have any advice to women who maybe wanna get back into work but are afraid how you manage that with the kids and all of it? - One, I think that was like a huge why for making this record was to inspire, I know people aren't pop stars. Not, not everybody gets to be a pop star and I'm like, eternally grateful that for some reason this was my position in life. But I do hope that it inspires moms to get outside of their household a little bit and like find the thing that they love if they've lost it. I think it's so important to not be there for your kids every waking moment. I think it's so important for them to have like, wins and losses out in the world alone that you're not like privy for for everything and that like breaks my heart to say because I love to be there for all of their things. But like, I think it's healthy. And I've learned that with having four kids 'cause you obviously can't be everywhere all at once. And you just have to be like, "Okay, I was there for that thing that day. I'm choosing this thing this day." And you know, it's like you gotta make those choices. But I feel like my kids are stronger because of it. And I never want them to feel guilty for growing up and like leaving me behind. I don't, I want to be okay with like. - That is like maybe like sad and happy at the same time that almost made me cry, that's really. - Yeah, wow. - And I think that if you like don't find yourself and stay true to like some of your needs, you know, then like they eventually leave and you want them to leave and be okay, you know? - Like I don't have kids yet, but that's like a big fear of mine, right? I think so many women are probably watching right now 'cause it's like, you don't want to lose yourself. - Yeah. - But then the guilt of like leaving them and it's like, it's so ever present for women. Whether they're in the middle of it or they're expecting to go through it. So to hear you be like, guys, I'm actually living it and like, gotta let them go. - Yeah, you do. And then the other thing that I like wanna set straight a little bit is like, I, you can't have it all. You just can't, you can try and you can have a lot of the things that you want, but you're gonna miss stuff, you know, and you're gonna have to make choices. And I feel so incredibly grateful for everybody behind the scenes of my life right now, helping me achieve this. It is like, I have nannies and an assistant and like hair make up people, keeping me looking, you know, not like how I look when I wake up in the morning. And my husband and a label and a huge machine behind me that's like making this Meghan Trainor text me the other day. And she's like, babe, you, this rollout has been flawless. Are you okay? And I'm like, and I have so much help, but it's like still so much, you know, it's just like a crazy, you don't see what goes on behind the scenes 'cause it all looks so shiny and it's like has to, I guess, but like it's really hard and everyone's taken sacrifices for it, you know, including my kids. - No, I appreciate you saying that 'cause I think you're right. It's like your life does look like a dream right now and it's like you're shiny and sparkly and gorgeous and all of it. And it's like no to the women out there, like yes, I'm living my dream, but it comes at a cost and it's hard. - Comes at a huge cost. - Being in the industry comes with a huge cost. And it's so hard to complain when your life looks shiny and you have money, you know. - Completely, but I also appreciate you just letting us into because it's like, again, I think we compare ourselves to women we see online because I'm like, okay, so she's got four kids and she's able to do this and then you're like, guys, no, no, no, no. Like only because I have a crew and a team and assistance and this and it's like breaking that barrier and that wall. I think also helps women who maybe are doing it as a single mom alone who can't afford the assistance. It's like, yeah, you've got the hardest job and we bow down to you. Seriously. - Bow down to them. - Okay, last question. Your fans have stuck by your side for decades. What do you hope you're able to connect with them over in this new era that you're presenting to the world? - When I just want to say I'm eternally grateful for them, I would not have a music career without them. I was not like accepted by the music industry by any stretch of the imagination. They were rabid for me and my music and like I was of course Lizzie McGuire being that launching pad and them like loving me from that. I'm so grateful. Of course I had my feelings of having to like accept that part of my life but I'm so like, I love her now too and I connect and I get it, you know? But like when I got into music, the fans, like I was doing aren't like arenas and stuff. Like that was, and I didn't really have a ton of radio play and I didn't have like, it just wasn't a thing yet that like actors could just become musicians. Like I'm just so appreciative that like my music connected with people and like had legs for 20 years and then I get to be at a point now in my life where I can like see what it meant to them and to me and then just getting to like not be shy about like not, I'm not reintroducing myself at all. I think I just needed like a second to like live some life and like they lived a whole bunch of life and now we get to like connect as adults and talk about what the hell that's like. - Thank you so much for opening up today. I know we went on like a winding journey. - Really? We were in the canyon, babe. - We were everywhere and more. And I think again, like having had you take a break for a while coming back, like it's so fun to hear about your adult life. I know we did nostalgia but like I really appreciate you sharing more about what's been going on recently 'cause it is so informative to this album and I'm so excited for everyone to hear it and to embrace it with open arms and not look at you as this child star but this woman who has this beautiful family and a career and that is beyond relatable to my audience for sure. So thank you for opening up and letting us have a little glimpse into your life and everything that's inspired this amazing album. - Thank you. - It was fun. - Thank you for coming on "Color Daddy." (upbeat music)