High Altitude Luxury w/ Anita Correas & Gustavo Hormann, Kaiken

Hey listeners, just want to let you know that we've released the latest compilation of show notes in book form, covering episodes from 2022 to 2023. It's full of insights on sustainability, marketing, and even has a few celebrity sightings. Pick what up on Amazon and support the show. Welcome to X-Shadow. The podcast that navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to this episode of X-Shadow. Today we're going to be talking about the market for luxury Argentinian wines. And our guest today are Nita Kress, the commercial director of Kijkun and Gustavo Hormann, the chief wine maker at Kijkun. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Could you please give me and Peter a brief overview of your backgrounds and I need to why don't we start with you first. Thank you Peter and Robert for inviting us. Really well. Nice to meet you Robert and Peter we already met a few weeks ago. In my case I am originally from Argentina. I am truly Mendocinian. I was born in Mendosa and I have lived here my whole life. So that takes us to the wine is part of our culture. If you live in Mendosa you will be related with wine industry for sure. And I study in the university and then after studying I start working in this industry and I have been part of the Kijkun family since 2014. At the beginning I explore manager in different looking after different markets and today I am the commercial director. So I look after all the cells of Kijkun wild world. And Gustavo, could you give us your background? I'm not Mendocinian. I'm actually Chilean and the former chief wine maker of Montes. We are part of the Montes group. But I would really invite to join the team of Montes of Kijkun in the year 2016. I'm a grown-amist specialized in physical culture and analogy. And I've been working in the wine industry for the past 25 years. 20 of those years together with our real montes. I was in Montes in Chile for 11 years and 9 years in Kijkun so far. Actually my first plan was to come forward to 5 years but I'm still here. Must be a good life in Mendosa. We can't complain. Yeah, very beautiful. So for those of our listeners who aren't familiar, could you give us an overview of Kijkun and its history including its ownership by Montes? Maybe I need to answer that question. Of course, we like to name us as Kijkun. We are a premium winery from Argentina. We are really focusing in high end wines. We have 22 years of history in the year 2002, famous and well-known wine maker from Chile decide he wants a new challenge in his life. And he came to Argentina to Mendosa, particularly to start this project. That the name answers to a wild goose that is capable to cross the end of the mountain between Chile and Argentina. That is what I really did in that moment. And today we are in independent winery. We are part of a big group that we have different business. Wild world, but Kijkun is a winery that is Argentinian with people from Argentina working here or people we brought from other places as Gustavo. That became Argentinian. We have mostly focus in exports, but we also sell well in the domestic market that is really big for Argentina. The 70% of the production of Argentina is selling the domestic market. We export today to 60 different countries around the world. And we are in the top 10 of the wineries that export premium wines, evolved the $70 FOB. So we are really proud of this. Then in terms of where are located, we have winery in Vistalba. Vistalba is in Mendosa. It's a really well-known area that is known of the primary zone. Because it's where the first Bordeaux baraitas were planted in Mendosa. So we bought a winery in 2007 that is a 100-year-old building, beautiful, built by an Italian family. Here we have 28 hectares of vineyards. Then we have a property in Aguerello, that is also Lujandecujo of 60 hectares. And a bigger property in Ucovala in a new IG that is called Los Chacases, where we have 150 hectares planted with Malbec, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Frank, Petit Bordeaux and different grapes. So we are a medium-sized winery, really focusing premium wines that is in general. You recently launched a new luxury tier wine called Boulder. What's the story behind that release? Well, Boulder is our new treasure. Until we launched that wine, our mind was the iconic wine from Caipin. But we have been working for the past 10 years in developing a new iconic wine. We actually have a very special plot in our property in Los Chacases, which is very unique. So we planted it with three different baraitas, Malbec, Cabernet Frank and Petit Bordeaux, in Aguerello, Tregy, with the idea of the resilience of the wines, you know, because the terrar is a very style. It's actually an overflow loaf of the arroyo grande. So after, you know, a couple of very big dams of rains and glaciers, you know, the river form, a little piece of land of three hectares, that is totally full of rocks. But when I say rocks, I say big rocks like buckets. So with Orelio, we're discussing and doing something special from that plot. And it's a wine that, in my opinion, is shaped by the landscape. All this tonally character of the soil, trespassing to the wine, and also all the aromatic herbs that grows among the vines also gives a very special character to the wine. It's a very small production of 3,700 bottles that we think is the best wine we have made so far. And Boulders retailing in the US, I believe, are around $300 a bottle, which is well above my, which I think is around $100 a bottle. How big do you guys see the market for Argentinian wines at $100 plus? Well, this is not a huge market for Argentina, but in our case, well, as to say, we used to have just my icon wine that was a wine that we released in 2009. And we took 15 years to release a new icon wine. For us, it's really important to have something really different to be named our icon wine. And in the case of Boulders, we just produce less than 4,000 bottles of this wine. So it's really limited. It's all allocated before we release the vintage. There are consumers for this kind of wine. And it's not a consumer that is just looking Argentinian wines or a specific wine from people that love good wines that like to collect specialties. So we believe there is the recent market, the recent consumer that is looking for this kind of specialties somehow. Who do you see as those consumers and where do you think they live? Is it mostly US or all over the world? I told you, we export to more than 16 countries around the world. We have a big domestic market and in Argentina, we sell, it's our main client for my, for example, and it's probably the main client of Boulders. But we also, we already launched it in Hong Kong and in Korea. There are big markets for these kinds of wines. We launched in Brazil. Brazil Argentina is the second country to Brazil. So we have big consumers there. And of course, the US. I mean, we did the launch a few two months ago and until now the result has been really, really good. So yes, it's not of course a huge distribution because it's really like small production. But I believe in the main countries we export as the US, Brazil, Argentina, Korea are really good markets for this wine. Just to clarify, you mentioned the plot of land that Boulders comes from as a specific plot of land. It's only 4,000 bottles. In terms of the grape varieties use, is it a uniform or is it a blend of different varieties in that plot of land? It's actually a field blend. So the tree bar addouts are planted, mix it, you know. We have Maldeca, and a frank and Petit Virolo. In more or less the proportion of 64% Maldeca, 68, 24, and a frank and 8% Petit Virolo. And it's also a confirmation. We started making a wine severer tea during many years. And till we realized that the tree bar addouts get right together. So we decided to make a trial during a co-fermentation and the result was amazing. That practice allowed us to get the tree bar addouts married very early. And also the expression of the tree get together very close. So it was a very good decision so far for us to make a co-fermentation. and it's something that makes the grind so special. - And Anita, as you said, that you launched 15 years ago and now that you're launching Boulder and now Boulder's three times the price. I'm curious on the precedence that you see when you're looking at the market. Do you see someone blazing the trail in South America or the new world that gives confidence to launch such a premium product? Or how are you thinking about when you're creating this wine, that the potential for this benchmark of Boulder? - Argentina has a long history of doing high end wines, mostly for the domestic market in general, with very most Argentinian wines. But we have seen in the past years that Argentina is having really good scores, going and exploring new regions as Ucovala has gave us a lot of visibility, like a lot of really good critics, wild word. And we believe that it's a category that is growing. Argentina, fortunately, when we start exporting, we didn't need the other markets because we had the possibility of selling everything here and we start exporting like good quality wines that that position us in a really good place to show better things from Argentina. Of course, when we go abroad, we compete with the whole world and we are competing with the big Napa cups or with Bordeaux and other countries that has a lot of good reputation. I think it's a good thing, but not just as sky, and I believe as a country, we have all the conditions to fight that battle in that high end wines. - There are some other wine use from Argentina already making and selling wine at that price point. In my opinion, for the consumers who look for those types of wine, they are not so concerned about the origin or the country of origin. Normally, these wines have an entire concept that the consumers get like a value. And as Anita said, Argentina has all the potential for making this high end wine. - So just to compare to my, what's the production level of my? - 12,000 bottles. - Got it. And so I'm curious, as you're looking at setting up, like you find this co-blan, you decide to co-ferment, and you make this amazing thing. It's very small production. So it's like, do you feel like the way to going to a higher echelon, something nuanced is to do something that is small production and quite very specific? Like you said, that concept. Is that something that has to be like small, like in terms of boutique to be able to justify that price point? - In terms of, must I work and explain more technically, but it is, I mean, this is like a discovering of a special plot that this is the possibility of production. We decide we are going to do this quantity of bottle, because now you can explain better the special place, because it's unique in also in Yucca Valley and in Mendoza. So that's why we can't produce more. Probably we are able to sell more from our side, but from the technique side, it's not possible to produce more. - Yeah, I'm just more thinking like the Burgundy model versus the Bordeaux model. It's kind of like you're focusing, hyper focused on terroir to go up and like the Burgundy style as opposed to just, but you're kind of raising everything up in terms of the Bordeaux model, trying to make the best like, you know, flagship one. - Yeah, that's exactly the explanation. You know, the surface of the plot is limited. The production is limited. Every single plant produce less doesn't have a kilo of grapes. So it's a place that in one hand help us to make something unique, but in the other hand, we'll keep the production always limited. - Got it. And so for Boulder, how do you envision selling the wine? Is it, you mentioned it's a lot in Argentina, is that mostly in fine dining or in wine shops or do you actually do any direct to consumer in Argentina and also in the rest of the world? - Well, in general, what happened for us is our most important relation are with our importers. Yes, we have a key partner in each market and also in Argentina. We have a distribution company that is property of Kaiken, but we sell other brands too. So this is the first relation we have to take care and to produce. And then we have to be really selective where we are going to sell the wine in terms of our position as a brand. We are more on-premise than off-premise in all the markets. We have 60% of our sales in the on-premise. So probably we are trying to arrive to these really high-end restaurants that has the capability to have a wine like this in their list. And then through our importers, we go directly to collectors. We don't do it directly from the winery because we like to respect their relation with our partners. But yes, we have this kind of direct clients and we also work a lot receiving these people in the winery. We have an amazing place, like the winery. We have an amazing restaurant at the winery with Francis Malman. So we also are really lucky because we have the opportunity to receive these kinds of fans of our wines at the winery and make this relation like directly with Gustavo, with me. So it's part of all the strategy to have really close relation with the importers and these key consumers or these key critics of wine that also usually comes to the winery once a year. And so the 60% on-premise is that for Kaiken in general or is that what you envision for boulders specifically? No, in general. Kaiken in general. Do you think boulders would have a similar type of placement or it's just for a restaurant? It's a very small number of restaurants that afford the sell that kind of one. To the price. Yeah, now I think probably boulders going to be more hand-selling to collectors or like independent stores that can sell these kinds of wines. It's in our plan to sell in like Michelin stars, restaurant and these kinds of clients that can't have this kind of wine in the list. Of course, it's not for all kinds of restaurants. And is it the same that you see for my or is that do you think it'll be different? I think my, it has more possibilities because of the price of being in more restaurants list. We are lucky because we have a present of my in more than 40 markets. It's a brand that is already established. As Gustavo said, we sell all our production every year. Our clients already know how many bottles they can have of the wine every year. But I believe my cast more potential to have a distribution more on premis than Boulder because of the price. Normally, the importers chose different levels of interest in different wines. But since we have, you know, we sell all the my production. And Boulder is like taking the same way, I think. So far, the first vintage has got very good recognition. All the road shows and wine critics are very, very interested in the wines. So I think that is going to be a very successful product. Yeah, the 2021 inaugural vintage. I had the pleasure of trying with you guys in San Francisco a few weeks back. And it's definitely a tremendous wine. In terms of launching that type of product, how much marketing are you doing around that launch? Like what kind of, outside of obviously, like some press and trade launches? What kind of activities are you doing to launch such a wine? In general, it's mostly that. Yes, we don't do massive marketing. Marketing, we are a medium-sized winery. And in this particular kind of wine, Asmai and Boulder now, we tried to do our marketing really direct to the people we want to arrive. Yes, we work a lot with the critics. We're a table-classy-wood relation with different critics. We work with press, mostly independent people that can speak freely from the wine. And that is the-- and also, well, we have traveled a lot with you, Stavo T.C. representing the wine. Yes, we did some events in Buenos Aires to present it in Argentina. We did it in São Pablo, Brazil. We went to the US to present it. And also, we traveled to Asia, yes, to the presentations. So it's more like a really direct marketing person to person than more massive marketing is our plan. And so in terms of the launch so far, what have you seen to be the most effective of the things you've done? It's difficult. It's difficult. No, but I think the presentation in Brazil is the one that has the more direct effect in terms of sales. Yes, we also-- with all this wine, we did really good material for the wine, because the special thing about this wine is the place that the rock. So we did an amazing video that you can see it with Google Glasses that you can somehow-- if you are in San Francisco, you can travel to the winery, to the vineyard, and you can see the vineyard, or 360. You can go inside the soil and see how the rocks and the boulders are there. So that was really good, because it's difficult to explain to somebody with words how specialist this place and with this marketing material, somehow we were able to bring a piece of Los Chacazes to people. And that I think it was a really good decision from our marketing team. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting use that maybe more winery should think about doing. Was that something that is very expensive to create? or I don't know the type of investment to do something like that. - It was, I mean, It was much more expensive than doing a regular video because you have to film with special cameras and like three different days of video, but it's not impossible. And for a wine like this, that the important thing to communicate is the place. And we would love to bring everybody to the winery, but it's not possible. So it's a good way to bring the vineyard to them. So I think it's an amazing decision to do it. And the results and people in general really thrilled with this way of seeing a new wine. Yeah, I think that we were very pioneer making that video and the people react fairly well. You know, the fact of taking them into the vineyard, then they can understand the real concept behind boulders. So we are very happy with that, truly. And in terms of these different launches or marketing efforts to spread the word about boulder. Do you measure effectiveness? Is it just sales or is there something else that you're looking for in terms of, I mean, obviously there's impressions and things like that, but for something like this, I'm assuming making sure it gets your target customer's hands as the priority. We work in every decision at the winery, it's a long-term decision. Of course, we want to sell and more every year, but everything we think everything about the brand building of Kaiken. So this part is something that with this limited production, probably the return is not enough somehow, but it's enough because we want to build, continue building what Kaiken is while we're, yes, and like a premium wine winery from Argentina doing different things, new things, innovating. So our measure is our presence in the market, how our importers react to this kind of new projects we have. So it's not something we don't measure it with the sales of this year. We measure with our presence in the market in the long term. Yeah, we have another range that we have to be focused in sales. This type of wine is for making a little bit of noise for positioning the winery in the high end. Already Kaiken has that recognition, not only from other wineries of Argentina, also from our importers and all the gatekeepers. So that's the idea of launching this type of wine. So the importers, the consumers and the rest of the industry that Kaiken is able to reach that type of quality. As you probably know, measuring marketing is really difficult. I mean, it's really difficult. It's not something that is one plus one is two. It's like having a restaurant at the winery. I mean, part of that and receiving people from all around the world is to show Kaiken. And to have ambassadors all around the world. So I believe it's for we are really lucky to have this philosophy of doing, thinking the winery from here to 10, 20, or 30 years and everything we do today will bring success in the future. So that's the idea. And I think you said Mai's been around for like 15 years or so. What marketing do you do today to keep Mai going? Well, we are lucky. We don't need as much marketing. What we did this year, for the first time, we changed the packaging of Mai. I mean, the packaging has been the same since 2009 that we released the first vintage. This year with the vintage 2021, we redesigned the label and the packaging and the wood box and everything. And we decided this two years ago, we were lucky because this vintage of Mai has really good recognitions. I mean, he has the highest score ever, 98 points from James Sackling. We are in the top 100 list of Sackling 2. So it's a winery. There is already established. Yes, we don't need to do a lot of marketing because it's a winery that already has the recognition. We have been working on this for 20 years. That is one of the oldest from Mendoza. That is unique. And I think the work we have done for 15 years is. It keeps it going. It's building on itself probably. What we did this year is that it's for the first time in 15 years changing the packaging that I think it was a big step for us and was a difficult decision to make but the reception has been amazing. What markets is Mai the strongest? Is it the same as Kaiken in general or is it slightly different? No, it's mostly Argentina. Yes. That in general is not the same in other. And then our main consumers are in England, the US, Brazil and Japan. That was East Asia as well. You mentioned one specific plot of land and that limited. Do you plan to identify other microplots that are special and unique and put them into this level of high end wines or is it just this one wine of boulder and we're just going to talk about that one place? Well, we love it. We will love. But it's not easy. It's the nature who sticks. Not me in this case. And normally map our properties, the vinegars in order to recognize specific plots everywhere actually from Los Tagayas. We also produce two different markets from the different banks of the river that allow to belong to different olive oil formations and geological fans. So we make a lot of trials. You can create an history. The story is already there. And then you have to know how to read it. So it's not that easy. Anyway, the property of Los Tagayas is not totally planted. We are planting every year to one or two more blocks. So we are going to explore the rest of the property in the west in order to find something special. So how do you think about building relations with one collector's directly versus the trade influencers, gatekeepers that exist in the wine industry? I think everybody is important in the industry. It's different as I explained before our main focus are always our partners in the different countries. It's really important for us to have long term relations because they represent us in each market. We are really far away in the really south of the world. So we need these partners. But then it's everybody's important. I mean, we work a lot and really close to the critics with the different magazines and then with influencers. Of course, it's a new way of communication. Maybe 20 years ago, it was just the regular press and today you have to pay attention to these new way the consumers are seeing the world. But then the collectors are key for us and this kind of project. I mean, somebody that can really appreciate a wine as bolder or as a smile for us is really important because they can transmit to all the rest of the consumers why these wines are really special. And I'm curious. We talked a little bit earlier about the relationship with Montez. How does that help build the profile of Kijk and Globler? It's a difficult question. No, well, I was foreign in Montez, you know. I worked with Adelios in 20 years. So it's important also in my life. I would say that at the beginning was a very good for Kijk in to follow, you know, Montez because the size of Montez in the world is much bigger and the name of the wine is better known also than Kijk in was. But with the time and the knowledge that we have got, you know, in Mendoza, we became like independent, you know. We had the beginning use all the distribution change of Montez to grow. But then with our own personality, we started running our own way, you know. So nowadays we are sharing this importance in just a couple of countries. And all the team of Kijk in is from Argentina from Mendoza, except me. And also the style of wine and everything, the communication, it comes from us, you know, from the Kijk in thing. So I think at the beginning, the link with Montez was very positive. But nowadays we can say that we are Kijk in and we can still Kijk in and communicate Kijk in Biteson. And so in terms of, you know, launching and selling your luxury, I'd call them luxury Argentinian wines like Boulder and Mai and other ones that come from Argentina. What do you see as the value proposition for collectors and consumers to buy them? Like what's the uniqueness of them that, you know, you can't get anywhere else in the world. For like high and Argentinian wines in general, yeah. Well, Argentina is totally the share of the rest of the world. You know, it's the only country where I would say the 85% of the production is not even influenced by the oceans. Most of the ones who are losing countries has the influence of any ocean or the marine breeze or whatever. When you speak about Mendosa you are talking about very special type of bitter culture that is made in a desert in high altitude. So the influence of Mendosa is much more affected by the range of angus and that makes the place different and unique. And how do you think that compares to our identity, lecture Argentinian wines compared to Chilean wines where you're from? You are putting him in a really difficult position. No, I would say that all the new world countries, you know, as the US, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, have different particularity. There are some players in each country that are trying to play that game, you know, the play of the premiumness, the game of the premiumness. Every country has a different condition to produce a unique one. I think that game that Argentina is playing nowadays is getting better results. You know, as part of the conversation with Anita at the beginning, the country of Chile and Argentina began with different focus in terms of exports. Chile is less than half big in terms of population and produce the double volume that Argentina. So the focus since the beginning was the export in Argentina, the focus until now is the domestic market that consumed 70% of the one. So the country started a little later, but we have better focus because as Anita said, the country didn't need to go outside to sell the wines. So nowadays, you see the average price of exports, the one of Argentina is 40% higher than Chile. So I think also there are much more players in Argentina in the high wine production that Argentina is very concentrated in no more than five wines. Recently in 2024, Kaiken Ultra was named in the top 100 wines by wine spectator at number 30. So congratulations. Do you see customers trying the lower tier wines or lower cost wines as a way for them to then graduate into the higher wines or vice versa? Do you think that Kaiken Ultra is a gateway to my and Boulder or is it the reverse? Well, yes. First of all, we are really, really proud of this recognition. One spectator is one of the most respected publication, Wild World, and being like the number wine Argentina wine in the least. On this price that is 26 dollars, that is a really, really good price. It makes our field really proud and happy. It's a recognition of all the work Gustavo and everybody does at the winery. Ultra for us is our core range because it's a range where we can show like the best expression of different baritals in from Argentina and also in a really competitive price. We can deliver a lot of quality to the consumers in this price range. And in terms of, of course, if we can go higher from here, I believe it's a possibility in general. People who is a regular consumer of ultra-probably when they have a special location, if they like the wine and they like the winery, they can go to consumer-mine or other wines we have in the range. But in general, what we think when we do different ranges of wine is to think in the consumer that normally drinks this price point. Yes, and we want to give them the best quality we can for that price point. And it's something that Kaiken has been really consistent year after year in the 22 years of history we have, that always we try to over deliver in each price. Yes, so we are not always thinking that, okay, this consumer is full-trot then can go to my because we have already consumers in my, but we want people who select ultra to always be happy with the price he pay for that bottle of wine. So it's a way we have to, we work like each range is for kind of consumer and they need to be happy with the wine they bought for that price point. That is our idea. Here we are very happy because to be ranked number one, you know, wine of Argentina is a, an honor for all the team, but the year 2024 was quite a special for us because we received a lot of recognition. And we were awarded as the newer wine producer of the year by the somebody who wine awards, which is fairly good because these people who works in the wine industry, the one that evaluate you, you are not invited to account this to something they select you. And also to receive that recognition, older was was ranked like the best Argentinian red blend this year by Patricia Papia, which is the most recognized wine treaty again in Latin America. So it's a good beginning as well our less expensive wine, which is our range states in the variety Malbec was chosen also by wine spectator like the best value one. So it is a lot of recognition that came because of the effort we do we do, but it's something that in the long term, you know, would be much, much better than now. So all that recognition probably helps out a lot, but in general, the we're seeing tough macro economic conditions for wine in general with less consumption, but China is really down from its peak and even the US is now starting to consume less after growing for like 30 years in a row, as well as, you know, some wars in different parts of the world, which, you know, have cut off some markets for some people anyway. How have those things impacted Kajken at all or maybe not, and maybe it's offset by all the wars or recognition? First of all, we are from Argentina, so we are used to this crisis that got my goals is it's a way we live, but yes, of course it affects the winery and the industry of Argentina. I think since 2020 it hasn't been easy. I mean, we have been challenging different things every year, but I think as a country, as a winery, as an industry, we have been discovering ways to go with the way somehow. In our case, the COVID and the lockdowns were really bad for us, as I explained, we are 60% on trade, so of course it was a difficult year, then we start doing better again. And people is drinking less wine, but they are drinking better wine. That is also something that our focus has been that since we start, so it's a good thing for us. And we believe, I mean, people, wine is something that comes from centuries, it's not something new. We have cut better and worse times. We have a long-term vision, so we know this is a moment that is going to pass and we will continue in there. So yes, it has been difficult for five years, but we don't stop. I mean, in the past five years we have released several new wines, new projects, we have invested in our vineyards. We believe it's a moment that you have to bet for the business, because we will see better moments and we will be prepared for that, so it's how we manage. We have to sail the crisis. We cannot take bad decisions in this moment. We know that the crisis pass and the bad decision stays. So we have to keep calm and continue working. You mentioned the Argentinian unstateliness, the government sometimes occurrences, certainly it's had wide fluctuations. As an Argentinian business, how do you, that does business globally, what are things you need to an Argentinian winery that wineries in other countries don't need to think about and how do you navigate some of that? It's not just the winery, that's why you see Argentinian people everywhere in the world, that they are creative and they do, I mean, they renovate themselves really easy. I think Argentina has been in the crisis for 50 years, for now, and we are used to. So it's difficult, but I think we are capable to think good solutions to each crisis. And we are still here, I don't know how, but we are still here. Of course, managing, I don't know, we still can explain better. We are managing a business with 100% of inflation, it's not easy, but it's a country that has so many opportunities and so, I mean, the quality of the people and the quality of the land and the weather we have, that gives every time and other opportunity to pass through this situation and move forward. For our world, that don't use to have an inflation this time, you know, has been very tough, but Anita grew up with inflation, you know, so the Argentinian know how to manage it. I would say that if you have to navigate the money storm, there is no better captain. that are Argentina. - So what excites each of you the most about the next three to five years at Kaiken? Maybe we'll start with you and eat it. - I think the following years are to consolidate both all everything we have done in the past four years. We have released several different wines as disobedience that is a blend that we did in collaboration with Francis Malman or the aventura range that is like microteroires of Malbec to show the plasticity of the varietal and then we'll bolder that we have a speak a lot about it. So our focus in the next year is to consolidate these products continuing growing in our cells at most not in volume so much, but in this kind of range it's about premium that these are the wines that we want to show to the world that Argentina is capable to produce and that we can compete with all the different origins from the world. So I think we will have years not to doing a lot of new things more to consolidate what we have done in the past year that are really, really good projects that we need to continue pushing forward to consolidate them. So that's my idea from my side. - I very agree with Anita. The past four or five years has been full of new projects, new wines, new ranges. So now it's time to consolidate, but in the technical side we're gonna continue making trials in several regions. We're gonna continue planting our property in Los Chagayas, which is an amazing place that gives quality enough to produce a wine as a bolder, specifically in terms of new developing. I think that we are gonna try to vet for a high end, quite long. We are working in that. Anita, you didn't know? - It's a good idea to have, I don't know, something new that in a couple of years. - No, no. - Makes sense, great. Thank you both for sharing. We'd like to wrap up each episode on a personal note. What is the most cherished wine in your personal wine cellar and when do you plan on drinking it? - Well, I go first. I have several nice, really nice wines in my cellar, but one that I have there, and I know I will drink it in 12 years. It's a my 2018, that is the year that my son was born. So I keep it in my cellar. So when he is able to drink, and when he turns 18 years old, my ABA is to open it and drink it with him. So nice. I also have some special wines, you know, but one that makes part of my life, it's a gift, was a gift from very good colleague from Germany. Get not Goldman. He was working with me in Chile trying to develop a Riesling for Montess. He gave me a bottle of a Riesling from battery bear, in 1975, that is the year when I was born. And I'm planning to drink it in March 2025, when I became. - Peter and I are both a fed on Berthier wines. We have the same Berthier, so we try to. In our Berthiers and our similar, in the same month, so we try to share some other regular business. Totally down with the Berthier wine, and 75 Riesling from Germany should be amazing. - Should be. - And I've definitely been buying a 2020, and we'll be buying 2024 wines for my kids. (laughing) - Did you buy it? Did you get it in a large format so that it can. - Yes. - Literally like half, yeah. - Mad, yeah, okay. Good, good. Well, we want to thank you both for sharing everything about Kaiken and specifically Boulder, and talking about how you think about that product in the market and how you talk to trade and consumers. It's really helpful and very insightful. Thank you both. - Thank you guys. - Thank you, Peter. - And Rover. - Thank you, thank you. - We've really nice to participate in this podcast, so we are really proud to be here. Thank you. - Thanks for joining us. If you loved this episode of X-Shadow, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give a review on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, cheers. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]