Hidden in Darkness, Brought to light - Wes Speaks

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of hidden in darkness. Brought to light. This episode is going to be a little bit different here. We are going to kind of dissect conversion therapy and what that looks like in the environment of SC SL again that South Carolina School of leadership. And it was A nine-month discipleship program. Very intense where we consecrated, right? Ourselves to the Lord for nine months. Also, just want to give the usual disclaimer that we don't use names here. Our intention is never to bash, or embarrass, or to hurt anyone. In the process of this. We want to share our stories and do so and safe environment. Every opinion whether it be similar or different is completely welcomed here and that is definitely something that we want to dig deeper into. Also I want to say that. My recording equipment is starting to fail. So I have done the absolute best that I can to get this one to sound good and I use that term loosely. So if you are an audio engineer, Here or you know, someone that is and would like to give me some tips. I am all for it, all for it. Also, I wanted to add that these podcasts or not sponsored. I'm making no profit off of this. So if you want to contribute, please just leave me a nice message that'll do. Okay. Without further Ado, today's guest is Wesley and let's go ahead and get started. All right. So Wes, how are you doing today? Doing pretty swell. How about yourself? I'm great. We just enjoyed a big pot of beef stew and we're ready to get down to it, amazing. I think you thank you very much. So, again, we're not here to bash the school that we went to. We're not here to cause any kind of dissension. We're just here to talk about our experiences as a whole. We, well, personally, I believe that. Sharing experiences, whether they be good or bad contributes to the whole theme of Kimbrough ghee, and that's what we're here to do. So Wes, tell me a little bit about your started SC SL. How did you get involved? And where'd you hear about it back in like 2015? I think my family started going to a new church. I'm originally from North Carolina and the youth pastors there were both. Alumni of the school and that's how I first heard about it. I didn't know what it was at the time I was I think 17 and I was going through some really bad shit and they were people that I really learned to trust and be able to share with without any fear of repercussions. And that's something that I had greater Church before. Yeah, it's rare. And they were just people that I trust to this day, some of my favorite people that I really think Embody love and they were both alumni. That's how I first heard about the school. Well so you started in 2016 that was your first year that was my first year well and how many years did you do? Did the the full four years all program? Wow so okay so when I was an SSL it was only a three-year program and I'm not sure what the fourth year was about. Can you kind of elaborate? So just for some context you do a first year second year and then if you're interested, Did and doing some more one-on-one education with like, you know, worship or Street. You could do a third, your internship under the people that were leading those things. What the heck was a fourth-year? I think we all still want to know my fourth year class but You know, I think my fourth year, I tried to have vision for it and I think that at the time, the school was really trying to make it something so that there was a logical reason for you to stay fourth here because, you know, they started a degree program and write it in for four years, typically, to do a degree. And so whenever I did it, it didn't feel like there was any vision for what it was actually supposed to be and that kind of led me in some others. Throughout the year to really question why we were doing it for ya. And was it like the same price? It was? Yeah, it was the same price. I think that might have gotten like a housing discount, which I didn't do housing that might have gone to missions or something. But because I worked for, I did some work for SES all during the summer, so I think they like credited that towards my mission. Okay. Cool. So you weren't actually paying for the housing, right? Yeah. But I think it just went to Shins but you still pay the total tuition amount. Yes. And it's kind of funky because, you know, you pay tuition to South Eastern and Southeastern like with the actual College they partnered with. I think it's kind of weird how the finances work, but it's still what I had been paying just wanted to clarify that. That's all no worries. So did you end up getting a degree? I did I did bachelor's. Well, I did my associate. Of arts. And then actually there's of science with a focus and ministerial leadership. I actually didn't start doing degrees until after my first year. So I did mine and three years. Nice. I bet. Okay cool. So what are if anything, what are you doing with it now? Nothing. Okay. It does. It's it feels a spot on my resume. I haven't had an interviewer asked me about the SRI aspect of it, okay. But I'm worried that one day they'll see Bachelors of Science. And think that I know anything about chemistry, dudes. A fucking genius fire him immediately. Yeah, that would knock. I would not go well Okay, gotcha. So so just I mean kind of like broad-spectrum overall how was your experience at es eso? Like just kind of walk me through your first year second year like what was your take on it? I think that even now, I would say I think that there is a large amount of who I am today, that's because of SES L. Agreed a bigger, I can recognize especially my first year that it really helped him was emotional maturity, definitely and how to interact with other people and handle uncomfortable situations, or confrontation, or when someone pisses you off, how to not cast them out, or still do. But you know, Do it lovingly. Yeah, but my first year I definitely was easy and also filled with a lot of in full Parts about myself that I really grew in very much so yeah. So I mean same here, you know, like they're there for me personally. My first year the positives greatly outweighed, the negatives. You know there was so much growing that I did and learning and The emotional maturity, the same thing that you said. So, you know, again, just to reiterate the good that came from it so much good. But there were also some really, really difficult things. And if you're open to talking about them, I'd love to hear about it. Let's start with your your very first interview if you're comfortable talking about. So whenever my youth pastors introduced me to SC SL SL you to do something called experience, We're students who had heard about the school or were interested. Come spend a weekend at the school, stay in the apartments or dorms go to a worship service, you know, learn all about the school, interact with the people, in my opinion, a really good Outreach for people that didn't know anything about the school and a curious. So I went to that and whenever you go to experience, you have the opportunity to fill out an application and have like an interview right there. And so, that's what I did. I filled out an application, I had an interview the same day. And for the most part, I mean, it's what I would typically expect for maybe, just like a gap year school. Yeah. You it's nothing like, what's your social security number for fast food. Nothing like that. But one of the things that they asked me and I think from our conversations, it was a standard question on the application was, have you ever had any homosexual tendencies or Urges. Which is a very awkward question for a stranger to be asking your stranger who just came to this random school for a weekend and has been sleeping in the apartment with these people that they just met. Yeah, that was a question that I got asked and it took me a couple minutes to answer it but I was like, you know? Yeah, I know but at the same time, I felt very I don't think this was the the staff member there is interviewing. I don't think they were intentionally putting pressure on me, but I felt very required to say, but I don't want to act on that. I want to heal from that and that was kind of the start of my experience with Going to ask you a cell trying to not be gay. Yeah. And encountering a lot of different things because of it. Yeah, and if this is okay to ask you and if not, we'll let it out, but you identify as gay as hell. I am so good. I love it. Okay, cool. So basically the same thing kind of happened for me and it was a You know, I think I like guys too. Yeah, sure, let's go with that and I mean I think that they kind of saw me as harmless but yeah that those interview questions. They were a little too personal too quick in my opinion. So what did that look like for you? Over the course of your first year? Um it's something where I felt kind of like egg that they were trying to Make sure didn't crack. But instead of like, you know, being hurt by people, it was making sure that my homosexuality didn't affect anyone. Yes. Okay, maybe kind of broad, but I felt in any interactions. I had with staff staff would take students to lunch on, especially with the first year class. They would make sure to take everyone in their huddle or their small group, out to lunch at least once and all the conversations. Stations, I have with staff, you know, at some point, it would come up with, you know, well, how you doing with this? Like, are you struggling with any brothers? Like, do you feel like this is an issue? Yeah, I mean, it was, it was a lot to encounter all at once and I didn't know how to handle it because nothing had changed from the time. I put my application in to the time. I came to the school, you know, I look at Tom Hardy and have some thoughts, but It was it was just a very interesting. I felt like I was fragile and they were trying to make sure that I wasn't an influence on others. Okay. Yeah I completely understand that I think for me it was definitely the same but it was also like I have this extremely deep-rooted fear that I'm going to make someone else uncomfortable and SC SL just kind of enhance that fear. Which made me then very awkward to be around ask any first, your sister is with me and they'll tell you, oh, Anna was awkward as hell. And that's why, because I was terrified of making people uncomfortable and that's so heightened, their, you know, like you feel like, you can't just be yourself. Going off of that. What did your second your look like? Oh gosh. Um, I always say that my first year was easy and my second year, was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, which is very dramatic. Especially since I was like, I can, I guess barely 19 at that point. I think that's a fair statement. Yeah, I really think that's a fair. Statement was a lot at once in your second year. Are you, you're an RA. So all second years were required to be Ras, which means that first year, students come and live in your apartment and you're responsible for discipling them while they're at the apartment. In addition to that of, you know, having these first years that you were that you're supposed to lead, right? I mean, like you're literally a first year leading a first-year like that. There was no real training to become exactly. In addition to that, you're given a portfolio of the responsibilities you have Today and I see SL. So you could be a sign media team. You could be a sign of scripture studies. You could be assigned worship, you have office support tasks. So essentially, it's like what your work requirements would be like a 9 to 5 job like what you're required to do, while you're at the Ministry School outside of classes and outside of you know, the apartment side of thing. Yeah. It was a lot, it was a whole lot, there were a lot of I guess things that happen throughout the year with students getting kicked out. Out one of those students that live with me was kicked out of the school and just different things that happened that added to the stress, but it was a lot. I would say it's a lot, I didn't do a second year because of that I feel like if I had done a second year that I probably would have lasted three days and then ran into the woods screaming never to be heard from again. Yeah, every day was a struggle to not do that. I can imagine. So how did in your second year did the homosexuality and the Tendencies and all that stuff that that still come up for you? Yeah, so something that happened. My first year was I know this time praying and asking for prayer from pastors and staff members and fellow students for, you know, healing from homosexuality. It sounds awful to say, no, I did this. Same thing. Um, but there was a point in the year where I was like, well I think maybe liking a girl is liking things about her. I at that point and to this day I have never felt attraction to a woman. And so I found there was this woman I interacted with a, my Ministry where I was like, you know, I really like her personality. I like how she does these things. Maybe I maybe am attracted her. Maybe that's what this is. So, I went and told my aura and I told my staff coach. They were ecstatic I guess I guess for them it's like a hoorah moment like we did it like hmm. I don't want to put this in their mouths and especially not my ra because I love her, you know, size, but it was like we did it like we cured one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So off of that, I had a very similar experience, you know. It was like I told my staff coach that, you know, I think I might be struggling with a brother and I mean, I'm, I'm by Why? So that's a really shocking but I must for everyone else but you know it was like oh you go well honey, you know kind of situation and and again this is like this is so no hate towards that staff. Coach because I sincerely love her and I credit so much of my personal growth to her, you know, and I'm sure you feel the same way about yours, but like there were things that could have been done better. Yeah, like that. Yeah, you know, I'm being told old that you're basically an alcoholic living in a bar. I mean, you know, that's my God, you just don't do that. You don't, if, if I were to critique conversion therapy, this is the epitome of Devil's Advocate. You shouldn't But people in a position where they're supposed to come over to the side of like being straight and tell them, you know, to all the straight students. Hey, don't struggle like, don't think these thoughts, like, make sure you control yourself around this person. But then this one student that, you know, is trying to, you know, make straight, tell them. Oh, that's great, you should struggle you go on and struggle, you go on and struggle girl. Like you, let that Fester because I get, I don't know. Maybe it's like well. Well, maybe we should let this spread throughout their body so they're fully, yeah, infected, no, I get it. And man, I have so many things to piggyback off of that. But number one being what I want everyone to know about conversion therapy in this program. It is not what you would think like that. You see on TV, where they put the paddles to your head and, you know, you're chanting phrases throughout the day your According Bible verses throughout the day. It's the conversion therapy is subtle little actions and and moments with, you know, staff members and we're going to, we're going to dig into some of those about to get real juicy, you know? But but that that was the conversion therapy. We're those little moments and you know, of course, wanting to please your staff coach and you're already. JS and everyone around you. Would you say that's a really? It was it was this especially after I had that moment with my staff coach. It was this pressure to make sure they saw me as straight. Yeah, and make sure they knew that I wasn't around this certain brother more often because I liked him. It was because I wanted to be his friend. And making sure that just going above and beyond for the sake of staff. And for the sake of other people around me to make sure they knew that I wasn't hitting on all of them. Yeah, and it was, it was fucked up. Like, I mean, how, how arrogant can you be right? Yeah. And it's you're not that attractive actually, but it was it was a lot of pressure. I think some of that pressure was placed on me by staff and I think a lot of It was me trying to assimilate into the environment. Yes, absolutely completely agree to that. Oh, I think I think my and going back to the original question. Yeah, my second year, it really changed how I was supposed to I guess minister to the people. I was supposed to disciple so a big part of leading an apartment is having a moment where you all share your testimonies with each other and share your testes. Share your testes with each other, unless you're Wesley, But I'm good, I'm good, we're good. All right. That was there was always a big build-up to like the first part. My family night is sharing your testimonies with each other to immediately get deep into like the spiritual emotional side of the school. Yeah and that's how they hook. You they expose your wounds and then you feel connected to these people by shared trauma, you're emotional? You're emotionally bonded. Yes. Whether or not you're willing, yes, but a big part of that my second year was Oh, I've experienced freedom from homosexuality. This is like a big deal. This is going to make so many people convinced. Yeah. I mean, it's not like I was told that it's not like that was my intention. But there were times where I was in puddles, which is a same-gender, small group, with a staff coach at all Huddle's and where my staff coach would say, Hey, you know, you should share your testimony about homosexuality and huddle today, and it Like, okay, like I can, but it always seemed to be if there was another student who had mentioned that they were struggling with homosexuality or with another student. If they had a struggle brother, as you would say, where it was kind of used. I was using it as an example, or like a success story of like this guy straight and he used to be gay. So you can be cured to just stick with the program, literally, same. And for me, It was like kind of an unspoken thing, but like I've heard a staff member say ones that just makes everything worth it. I've been told that exact same thing. Oh my God. Exactly. So like where these, you know, walking success stories and that puts an ungodly amount of pressure to write, you know? Yeah yeah, that gets me fired up. It's like I just don't know how to I've not even fully process. I've been in therapy for two years and it's been the best. Everyone go everyone go to their everybody's therapy but like I'm still processing this in therapy of like as soon as I essentially lied to try and get myself to like fit into this trade identity because I was lying to myself just as much as everyone else. As soon as I told that lie, that's all I was allowed to live like his I like struggled and I went to Staff coach and I'm like hey like there's this guy that's like super hot. Like I just want to tell you about it so you you know I'm being accountable. Yeah like there was so much pressure put on me, not struggle to really like run away from that because I'm s. Thus the success story, I'm the one that has converted and has you know, I'm the straight-A student and God forbid. I get a B+ right? Yeah no, I completely agree. Free and identify, you know, for me if it was a hey I find and bt-dubs. This is post SES else and none of you gals, gals, worry about it. But someone that I found attractive at work you know I would share with I still had a really good relationship with my staff coach. I still think I do. If you're listening I love you but they were the advice was you need to cut off that relationship immediately and And get out of it, you know, completely, no friendship, no nothing and I hurt people doing that, you know? And it sucks that that is the immediate best advice that someone can give to you or a struggling homosexual, which I don't believe exists but absolutely not. But like there there's got to be a better way to Minister struggled to even use the word minister to but you know, reach out to people that are gay. If if your response to someone telling you Like, hey, I like this person straight or gay. Like, if your response to that is cut that person out of your life, run away. Don't ever interact with them again because God forbid you're attracted to them anymore. That's first of all lazy lazy as fuck. Second of all like I don't see how that would benefit at all. It's not a solution. It's not. It's like a Band-Aid, you know, it's seems to be a trend and there's there's so much more that we probably Won't get into it, but like alienation as a solution seems to be something that was used a lot nest yourself. So, while we're on the subject, let's talk about some of the bad advice that we've been given by staff members, or, you know, what have you and Cecil involved by saying, first of all, Conversion therapy is not a thing. You're born. How you're born, you are beautiful, and loved and worth loving. Get that out out of that. But there are a lot of things that I think SC SL kind of tried to do. That they shouldn't have. And I think the main thing is they tried to be counselors. Yeah, I think there is absolutely a place if you adhere to a religion or spirituality. And anyway, there is a place where spiritual leaders to Mentor you and counsel you through your faith and what that means to you. But there's a point where it really should stop and you have to you're not qualified to speak to something in someone's life. And I think that's a really big area of the es eso. So in my opinion, probably cause some harm was people who are unqualified trying to give advice, trying to walk people through these really hard things without the necessary professional training to do. So definitely agree kind of going from that some of the advice for the shit I've been told so a big part of my Let's say, struggle with homosexuality and a CS L forgot. You was the fact that there were naked guys all the time and I'm not gonna say boys will be boys. Guys will be fucking stupid and decide that they should be naked around other guys. Unless it's like in a locker room like whatever that's fine, the most part but and SC SL. It felt like there is kind of this double standard where it was in the rules and staff would talk about Out how you're not supposed to be nude or you're not supposed to be and you know, underdressed even around like the people in your apartment because that's an appropriate and because you might have brothers or sisters that struggle with same-sex attraction. Yeah. It at least from the guy's perspective it felt like a double standard because it wasn't something that was equally enforced. I guess as far as rules go there are staff members that would see it as joking and funny and not In about it. And there were specific people in the guys class that tended to get away with a lot more. Yeah a lot of practicing this a some of the bad advice I've been given was to Just look away. Okay, that's so essentially, if I ever find myself in a situation as CSL or around the guys where they're naked, they are they have their dicks out for whatever reason. Hmm, I should just look away or I should remove myself from the situation. I shouldn't make a big deal out of it. Like I should remove myself from that situation so I'm not tempted, right? Even though it's in the rules that you should, Shouldn't even though I'm not the one in the wrong. Exactly. It's I should be the one taking responsibility for their actions, so that I don't fucked-up. Yes. And wow. There was a lot of that. I think throughout all four of my years that was something and you know, there are the Super Ultra Mega secret trips at the end of the year, where the guys go on Advanced and the girls go on Retreat. Yeah and we do super manly or Super feminine things and often at the advanced that's where most of this would occur. And where the least accountability was given from the staff to the students, okay? So this is this is different from from the guy's perspective because from the girls it was I mean it really wasn't any differently just living at SC SL so I'm excited to hear this. Yeah, well, something that All the guys would look forward to and staff would genuinely hype up. Is that at the guys Advanced you didn't have to wear a shirt. I'm just saying that. Now, it sounds so stupid because it's like, you know, you could say, hey, we're going to go to a row, look like a theme park and ride a roller coaster. That's exciting. That's something to look forward to, but at the guys Advanced it was, you know, you spent this whole year being modest and wearing clothing that wouldn't make the sisters stumble. So, now you get to spend these three days. Not wearing a shirt, I wish the audience could see my facial expression. It is very what the fuck? Um, yeah. Yeah. It's a and they hype that up high like that was an exciting thing. Yeah. And because there was this piping up of being allowed to not wear a shirt and because you know, everyone was so pumped. It led to 0 and I have to wear a shirt. I don't wear anything. You know, side note. We were told that we were allowed to pee anywhere in the camp. Okay. That was also something that staff told us to look forward to is, you know, Just be free in the wild. Just if you have to take a piss, go take a piss you man, you know that's that's what I mean is I don't know if you knew that, you know, I mean mansplaining this to you real quick but you know, a man is someone who can take a piss anywhere he wants. I didn't know that how he marks his territory that's god-given. Anyways I'm guess we're dogs glasses, wine, deep a little your good little there but so there's all this build-up and it led to Add to this time where there were essentially no rules being enforced about this and I was told that in these situations it was my job to look away and it was my job to ignore it or remove myself from that situation. Even if I was being forced to be in a campsite with these guys 24/7 for three days straight, it's my responsibility and my faults and not let myself stumble. Whenever everyone has their dick out and you know which also like you said earlier You're not that attractive, not that attractive. I'm sorry that I hate to break your note. You know, Tom Hardy. It's like let me just say that but you know yeah. The inflated egos were just my gosh. You know but you know old Christian men of God what's more attractive? Hmm. All right, a lot of things I think a nice pink color on the wall is more attractive. Nice like really light lilac and like a bright sunny room. Sorry, that's the. That's the HT TV guy coming out of me. I'm here for it. Okay. So when you get back, So bring it back. Um that's crazy. So so like I mean what other kind of manly rituals world was like you know, going around about this. So we had to do. Oh God, let me there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there, you take your time. So it was very much like a manly. Can't even though it was like this Lake. Russia, but it was like this church-sponsored like Campground, they had cabins, they had running water shower, ding lamping, it was glamping. But like we were highly encouraged to sleep in a hammock rather than beds in the cabin we had this like day where we all had to just do like whatever man around the camp. So like we don't like this Amphitheatre around a fire pit or whatever we cleared out the limbs in the We just did like manly labor to like show that we're like men of God that can serve the church in a physical way. Okay yeah we had this ceremony around a fire with a ton of tiki torches where we just talked about what it means to be like a real oddly can Broken Man and where we would get a railroad spike with a flag of our SES all year and set aside Cambogia because you know it represents the nail that wouldn't it is this Amazon cross, right? Sure. So it Was it was a lot of that. It was a lot of like, like a Cub Scouts getaway where you're learning and doing these stereotypical manly things in the woods but something else that you know, it happened some on the advanced but in general like the culture of SC SL that kind of became a thing and it sounds so dumb to say but A couple of the male staff members would slap the asses of the male students. Wow, and it was very much so like I guess you would like a football team in the locker room after they want a game, like nice job pal, just broke their ass cheek, but it was a groping or slapping and it on the staff member know. Are you serious? I don't understand. Okay. Um, but my staff would do that and it was, you know, obviously I I don't know the logic behind it but it was them trying to be manly and encourage the men I guess. Yeah. Grabbing their ass but nothing says Godly Christian man like smacking another dudes ass. I heard that no Joel Osteen sermon because the staff members started doing that the upperclassmen started doing. NG it with other upperclassmen and then the underclassmen were like, oh, that's cool. That's how we show our love to our brothers. And so, I remember it was a solid couple months. I think it was my second year, where a staff member would walk up the stairs to the modular and see a guy, and just laughing on the a say, I love you kind of shut and all the student, all the milk too. So, just to clarify, this was unsolicited on, like there, were there was no talk about it. It just happened, just happened. That's, I mean, you could really say that that sexual assault, it's solutely lately. Unwarranted. You're touching a part of my body that I'm not giving consent to there's an unequal power Dynamic, totally. Yeah. It the first time, it happened to me, I was taken aback because it was one of the pastors who had. So Seriously. Like tried to, I don't know better. What to say to get this. Get that homosexuality Out On Me, Maybe. Yeah, like works with me a lot on like different situations, you know, telling me to look away or how I should act, when I should share my testimony. You know, it was one of those staff members that was very centered around like fixing that part of myself and one day, they walk up the steps with modular. I'm talking to someone from the door, they just got my ass and I'm like, First of all, gross. Then why didn't consent? Yeah, and third of all if you are trying to convert me, why would you encourage men touching other men's Bots? Yeah, I mean, you know, from perspective at a CSL, you know, you've got Parts of the body that are very hyper sexualized, you know, your breasts and your but being one of them or two of them or three of them. That's right. But anyway yeah, you know like and then for them to just openly do that to one of those really sensitive parts of the body that they've taught. So, you know, in extremes about that's ridiculous. And I'm so sorry that happened to you. Um, I appreciate that. You know, it's not something. We're working, only for me, I think. And I've been to a lot of therapy that again, go to therapy, but it's not something that affected me necessarily in feeling unsafe but more so just feeling very confused. Yeah, I can readily confused and anybody listen to this, don't get any ideas. But like if there was a guy that I had any attraction to and I see a cell and he decided to slap my ass. What kind of signals is that sending me, right? Like it's the opposite of what you would expect progress to be in that area? Yes, and do something that the guys were encouraged throughout the year to not do was to not be overly affectionate with each other in public and I see is same with the girls. Yeah. Known as he is. So it's very common because, you know, your journey Is the brothers and sisters. There's all this talk of family and you know you're journeying emotionally and so you're going to bond with people and because of show that love through hugs or you know whatever and for the guys if a staff member or someone at the church noticed like to mail s ESL students like hugging and public. They would tell the staff and the staff at like the male staff at SES I would sit down with the guys and broken and be like guys you can't be doing this in public because what kind of Image is that projecting of Christ, like what kind of images that projecting Jesus, not hug people apparently not Jesus, you know, if you hug it gay. I don't know if you knew that, so it's a thing apparently, I don't know. But we were told, you know, like, don't be affectionate in public. And there were times where I would see someone that graduated a year before me that I wanted to like, say, hey to, and they wouldn't hug me because we weren't inside and they wouldn't hug me because they're like I don't want it to look good. And that's what we were taught and that's what we were told. And then on the flip side, while we're at the school, the staff is encouraging and participating in slapping the asses of male student. I I can't. I mean, I really can't relate. I'm just appalled. And so sorry that that happened. I mean the only, the only thing that I can think of for me was like, the majority of the sisters would give me a side hug. Yeah, you know. And that felt really shitty. Like, do you really think I'm going to get turned on like genuinely caring hug? Hey again, you're not that attractive. Yeah. But um, Oh my gosh, you know, stuff like that. It just robs you from meaningful relationships that are totally normal. Yeah, you know, it's It's just one of those things that looking back. It's a It is a contradiction, and it's hypocrisy in that, you know, we're taught that we're supposed to be congruent. We're supposed to be brothers of the heart where it's supposed to be open and honest with one another and like Journey. These things out and we can't show affection to each other in public non-sexual non like any other strings attached, affection? Just I love you as my brother. I've journeyed with you, we've been through shit together, like I want To hug you because I miss you, you know, that you can slap asses when we can fly past as, you know, as long as it's within the confines of the SL know. Okay? So that's that's terrible again. I am so sorry. The anyone who has had to go through that, from staff. If you want to talk about it, please feel free to reach out to me or Wes and it'll stay with us and you're totally good. Also wanted to Too kind of segue here into some bad advice that I have been given. You know, Anna, maybe you'll man who struggles with homosexuality and that way you guys won't have to have sex. What Have circular thinking, I don't know. And at that point I was still so confused as to what I was who I was attracted to and you know, stuff like that didn't help but another one was, you know, maybe you can just wait until you're like in your 50s and 60s and 70s, whatever and then get married when all of your sexual desires are gone and you know just just terrible, terrible advice like that. How to make someone feel hopeless, right? 101. There's so many things going through my head right now and I don't often get to flex my Bible degree. But I have read the Bible at least want Samesies and you know something that Christians will say or I have has have said specifically regarding homosexuality and abstinence and everything is well you know Paul says that sometimes it's better for you not to be married at all but you know if you are to be married, if you are to last or if you are to have those desires and get married. Like if you're saying the point of marriage is to To quench our sexual desires. Why are you trying to push marriage in a way that there's going to be no I guess physical or sexual aspect to that Mary? Yeah completely and again this is I know we discussed this in previous podcast but SC SL is a place where everything everything is over sexualized. I'm talked about wait way too much for a group of adolescent. Almost want to say children even though we're 18 our brains weren't fully develop times over 17 year old students. Yeah, like I mean you don't you just shouldn't talk about that kind of stuff that much to that degree and and talk about how good it is. But then turn around and say to someone, well, maybe you should just be abstinent. Yeah, and I mean, personally, I don't want to get too much into this. Maybe we'll save this for another podcast day, but honey, let me tell you, I have Spent more hours than I can count researching phrases in Leviticus and Romans specifically on what those words were originally intended for and you know I don't believe that there is anything wrong with a consenting homosexual relationship biblically. I sincerely don't and people will say it's right there, it's black and white and I'm like have you studied Have you studied? Have you studied? You know, all of the translations have you studied the translations of the translations have you took or taken any time to learn anything about Greek or Aramaic? Or you know, like have you really dug into this? Have you looked at the the culture of the time it was written and I mean, men had cocky ball, you know, straight up handmade still no, like to produce and why don't we do that now and You know, that there's so many things and I'm going on a tangent now, but just bear with me, you know, Christians have or I feel that Christians, have this unquenchable desire to understand everything and to have an explanation for everything. And I think it's about damn time that we got really comfortable in saying, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, but I know that. God loves me. And I know that I still have a relationship with Christ, right? You know, and I'm okay in that right now. Yeah. And That's all I got. I just wish that we comfortable in the in the I don't knows. And you know, the word says that our Salvation is our own to work out, you know. So what I feel is, right? May not be what other people feel is, right? And everyone has their own interpretations, you can't tell me that there's going to be just a, you know, like maybe 10 people who had everything. Absolutely correct that actually make it. Into heaven. Anyway, back back to the original point. No, that's great. Hey, I definitely think that The way I've come to view it when I talk to my counselor, is it feels like Christianity. I say Christianity as a whole. Yeah, but maybe more specifically, evangelicalism has kind of become so focused on having faith in the Bible that it's become lines. Lee rusting, this document that has been translated by translations and translators and people with political and social agendas have Transit of this. So many times, it's ridiculous to think that having faith means that we should ignore all that and trust that the NIV Bible were holding in front of us. He's exactly right. And has every answer. I completely agree and I know that they're I try to have an intelligent critical thinking conversation with a former youth pastor and he's like, yeah, but in Revelation it talks about it just these words than the plagues of Egypt will be. Upon them. And I'm like, I mean, When John wrote that, I feel like he was kind of zonked out of his mind. You know, John discovered, God's beautiful creation of mushrooms and might I say this is a man who was traumatized by being boiled alive and you know let's let's think about context. Yeah. It's what have I done here? What if I open it The implications that I got, you know, I did, I did, I did a four-year degree online with Southeastern University College that SEL partnered with like, I interacted with students from other places with professors and different textbooks, had different ideologies, and different feel feel a logical view points and I was taught classes that, you know, we have to look at the context of the structured out fully completely understand. Yes. And we would look at the context of like Philippians 1 mention something that a lot of people take to Calvinism common, like that's a whole nother thing but like looking at that reading the context, you like, well no, Paul's not like actually talking about like a calvinist it perspective of God because we look at the context, right? Let the context stops whenever we get to things that Christians don't like, right? Like Romans 1 Romans 1 like a things Leviticus 18 when they're called the clobber passages and it's like Fucking verses that mention it all translated incorrectly all influenced by society and politics at the time and we're not looking at that context because it doesn't support the Viewpoint that we want to hold and we've been taught and influence to hold our whole life. Yes I feel like Christians are so scared to step out and just again say you know I don't know and actually be open to kind of reforming your theology. Yeah and it is I get it. It's scary. I you know I understand it is scary but the lack of critical thinking from the church as a whole is just kind of scary that Viewpoint of I don't know and it's okay like that is it would say that's healthy and I think that anyone that would espouse to be a Christian or a follower of God or someone that believes in the Bible should hold that view point. Yeah. But if that if you're taught or if it leads you to a place of being a chef Shitty human being, then we need to talk. We need to talk. Like, if you're hurting someone, you're hurting someone by saying. Oh, I don't know, but I'm just going to have faith and trust that it's this way because my pastor that gets paid two hundred thousand dollars a year setup. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well I think that it's time that we start to wrap it up just a little bit. Can you think of anything else that you want to share? I mean, I'm just giving you the whole platform ever you want to talk about. Um, I think that first of all, anyone listening to this if you know me the one that I lived within a year of SC SL or staff member or whatever I love you whether or not you believe that or whether or not we agree on what love is I love you and I think if anything I got out of SC SL it's that love is important and Being our fellow human beings as human beings and as people that are also created in God's image, you know, they deserve to be loved and if you believe otherwise yeah, I'll let you if your Viewpoint. I will do my best to give a calm and collected response. I don't want to argue but don't be a shitty person. Don't notice someone Your life that's gay or like your gay friend that, you know, you always tell people about because you're a Christian that has a gay friend and that means that you're good evangelist. But if you're interacting with someone that's in the lgbtq uija community, Maybe don't bring up actuality in any context of Faith. Look if you feel the need to you know call them up as a brother or sister and evangelize them in that moment and say you know I love you and because I love you, I want to you know, call out your sin. You're being a shitty person. Hmm they didn't ask they don't need your opinion or perspective their business, it's not your business and person that just wants to have Love given and taken, you know, as a common you know, a fellow human being. So that's what I would say. Don't be a shitty person. Love truly how Jesus would love and hit me up if you disagree, I love it. Just to kind of piggyback off of that as well. I wanted to let this be known that since I have, you know, made it known that I'm in a relationship with a woman. But I'm doing great by the way. Um, that there has only been one pastoral staff member from every church that I've ever been involved in. Genuinely reach out to me on a regular basis, just to check in with me and any time that we have ever talked about, you know, where I'm at in life or, you know, homosexuality as a whole, this pastor will just listen, and He's from CLA and I just think he's the best and that honestly, to me shows more of the love of Christ than anything else. Someone just saying I'm here, I'm listening. I care about you. I want to hear about what you're going through so let that in you. All right? Well was it has been a pleasure. It has been hilarious and it has been also very depressing. Yeah, been great. So let's let's go ahead and wrap it up here. Again, if you want to be on the podcast please hit me up on Facebook or whatever platform I'm on. I don't even know but I would love to have you. I would love to have you here in the Charlotte area, preferably because my recording equipment is not what it used to be. And Anyway, I would love to have you to let me know. All right, you guys take care? We're going to sign off.