Here’s Everything I Know About Natalie Harp: Wolff

During the 2024 campaign, people began to talk to me because they were specifically worried about this woman, Natalie Harb, who had come into the campaign. She was assuming more and more authority in the campaign. There was a joke that people would say, "Oh, you know, ask the chief of staff," meaning asking Natalie. Later in the campaign, it was no longer a joke. She has worked to put herself into the position that she is the woman closest to Donald Trump. So it's really Natalie versus Melania. Yes, and even people within the White House say that Natalie was one of the people who was who argued for the ballroom and getting rid of the East Wing. Michael, I was so excited to talk to you today because there is one name on everybody's lips. Natalie Harb, we're giving over an entire episode to what Michael knows about Natalie Harb, because you started writing about her three years ago. Is it three years ago now? It's three years ago. It's three years ago, but first don't forget, please subscribe to The Daily Beast. Wherever you receive our notifications, our podcasts, whatever, we are independent media and we appreciate your support. Suppress the subscription button. Ring the bell. And ring the bell. Press the bell so you're notified when we drop into your YouTube or your Spotify or your Apple inboxes. So Michael, today we're going to talk about what is the impact of Natalie Harb? How do his staff, and I'm very curious about Susie Wiles's point of view on Natalie Harb? How did she manage to end up in a position where she is with him more than anybody else, where you say she is the second most important person in the White House? And where do we go from here? And the flight manifests that you were given, which show that she was on every flight. The only person who was on every flight with the then candidate Donald Trump. So this is a woman who has been hiding in plain sight, and only now is she really getting the attention that you were trying to give her three years ago. And I think you just have to focus on this as an extraordinary story. How did this happen? Who is this person? And what are the implications of this young woman having so much power and being in such proximity to the president of the United States' constant proximity? You wrote extensively about Natalie Harb in your book or nothing. She's one of the central characters in all or nothing. And she's a central character because she's inexplicable. How this person came to assume such influence and power in the Trump campaign and then in the White House was, I felt, a remarkable story. But I know the story, and because others around Trump found it inexplicable, inexplicable, and parallel dangerous. I mean they were, they were worried that this person, Natalie Harb, was then 30 years old, 29-30, no background whatsoever, came to take more and more and more of the candidate, candidate, Trump's attention, and become more and more central to what he knew, what he believed, his opinions that he had at any given moment. And she was, she was, and then became more and more his front face to the Republican Party, to members of Congress, to the press. She was the most important person in his political life. And I think was then gradually becoming the most important person in his personal life also. Okay, so all or nothing is Michael's fourth book on the Trumps. This being Michael Wolfe, I'm Joanna Coles of The Daily Beast, by the way, just in case you've joined us, you know, what am I doing here? What's happening? Today we're going to focus on Natalie Harb, who's emerging as this incredibly important person in the Trump orbit, and also the impact on, on the first lady. But let's talk about the origin story of Natalie Harb, where did she come from? And how did you start? I mean, I know you were slipped bits of information about her. For people who haven't written a book, who haven't done the extensive reporting, you have. You might want to just explain a little bit about how she came to your attention, and also we've got one of your, one of her letters that we're going to read out that was in, that was in all or nothing. So one of the things that happens when you're doing these, these kind of books, books about, well, in this case, obviously about Donald Trump running for President of the United States, the former president, who then became the future president, is what is the reason that people around him talk to you? What is the reason that they share information? And continue to share and continue. And I mean, there are a lot of reasons. I'm one of the reasons I've known many of these people over 10 years now. So we have a relationship. We are virtually, virtually friends. We are involved in this story together. But specifically during the 2024 campaign, people began to talk to me because they were specifically worried about this woman, Natalie Harb, who had come into the campaign, no one knew exactly what she was doing there, no one knew why she was doing there, but she was assuming more and more authority in the campaign. And this was both a worry and an annoyance to many people. And so that's one of the motivations for people to speak to reporters. They want to tell you, there's a story here. There's, they're worried about the candidate. They're worried about their own jobs. They're worried even sometimes about the country. And they seek out people to tell this story. And in my case, because I was around so often, I was certainly one of the people that they sought out to tell this weird story of this young woman who had become so central to the campaign. So how did she come on to Donald Trump's radar? There was a series and it's instructive. So she was, she had a position, an occasional on-air position at one of the conservative networks, the least successful conservative television network. And through that, she had come to know some people in the Trump orbit. And then she was enormously persistent. Persistent in going after their attention, then getting them to introduce her to other people. She had a story in which she had cancer. And it was always built as a very, very serious, a serious cancer that would likely kill her. It was a bone cancer, right? Yes. I mean, there's a, the story is a lot of holes. So there's no real specificity here. She then maintained that she had been cured of this cancer because in the first, in the first administration, there was a Trump-supported bill that gave greater access to experimental treatments. So she maintained that because of those access to those treatments, her cancer was cured. This then made her, this claim, Trump saved my life. And that was very specifically, Trump saved my life, gave her a speaking birth during the Republican Convention in 2020. And this was, you know, this was during COVID, you might remember. So this was a, this was a virtual convention, but, but there she was given television time to say, Donald Trump saved my life. This then gave her more access to the, to the Trump world. And in fact, got her a job in when Trump went to Mar-a-Lago. She became, this would be 2021, maybe early 2022, one of, you know, in political campaigns and in political circles, there's, there's just a, always a range of whatever interns go fetch at people, people doing errands, volunteers, basically. And that's what she became, a go fetched girl. From there, she became what is also called in campaign terminology, a body person. And the body person is the person who is in it, attending the candidates or the politicians needs at any point get me a cup of coffee. Here's my bag, you know why a politician can't do these things. Themselves like anyone else, I do not know. But this is part of political convention. Then she found herself in this interesting position in which Trump would play golf every morning, another exceptional thing that during the 2024 campaign, which began in kind of formally in 2022, Trump played golf every morning. This is extraordinary. One of the most difficult jobs, one of the most difficult things you can do is run for president. It's the most time consuming. You're always on the road. It is the thing that I think probably most disqualifies most people from being the president because you could not. You couldn't just can't put up with that schedule, except for Trump, who just played golf through the whole campaign. Although he did have better name recognition than anybody else. Well, I mean, it was almost. Obviously he didn't have to do anything. He won. Exactly. But nevertheless, but so he's on the golf course and in order to keep touch with the campaign and whatever, he would have someone follow him. This is, I mean, it's not as if he could have a phone and look at his phone. He needed someone to follow him with a portable printer to print out emails, texts, articles, and he would read them. He would stop at a halt to play a whole, you know, playing, you know, the ninth hole. And then he would be given this stack of papers. This person, the person who carried the printer was Natalie Hart. That's so that's where she found herself into the most access, the most access she could have with Donald Trump and it proved to be key access because all of his information, everything that Donald Trump knew, came from Natalie Hart's printer. So she's printing him out, texts, supportive texts from people, motivational statements, positive news, positive poll numbers, anything negative about DeSantis, who he was running against. So she's like a sort of good luck charm. She's just running around after him spewing good news. No, there was, there was, yes. Now, and Trump was famous during the first administration for never carrying paper. He didn't have papers. Trump did read and suddenly read, and we know that he doesn't email and he doesn't text. So suddenly though, during the 2024 campaign, he suddenly had all these papers and would refer him, I have to do my papers. I have to, and everybody was going, what is he talking about? And this turned out to be the material supplied to him by Natalie. Now, there was one occasion on the plane where I don't know, the plane stopped short or there was turbulence, something, and the papers went off the desk so they were all over the floor. So everybody, all the staffers got a chance to see all this, this stuff. Well, they all got down on the floor to help collect the papers because they wanted to read the papers. Right. And it turned out to be mostly kind of fan art. Fan art. You know, you know, people doing little pictures of Trump. What sort of Trump on top of the Empire State Bill? Exactly, exactly. So this is the kind of stuff that she would, that she would funnel him, stuff to all feel good stuff. So, or, and then she figured out, because, I mean, Natalie Harp has, it happens to be, you know, very, come from a very conservative right wing evangelical background. So then she would feed him also stuff that would push his buttons, in other words, in other words, if she wanted him, if she wanted him to attack someone, she would then know the kinds of things, the kinds of, the kinds of tweets or the kinds of articles to funnel him that would get him hot under the collar, and then he would, he would make some post about somebody. Now, and then she took over that job, too. So she became the person who did the post, pushing out the person, the guy who had, who had for a long period of time, had done those posts. The guy, but then, of Dan Scavino, was the kind of social media person. Dan Scavino, by the way, who started, you know, his, his trajectory was as a caddy at the golf club. So he worked himself. So also no political background? No, all, and it's always important to remember that the retainers around Trump are, don't have a political background. Okay, so the other thing that Natalie Harp has that Dan Scavino doesn't have, is she looks a specific way. I mean, this is a man, Donald Trump, who owned Miss Universe. He had a Trump modeling agency. He loved hanging out with women with Jeffrey Epstein, his great friend, until they had their sort of breaking up. So she, for those of you who are listening to this and can't see the pictures that we're showing and who haven't seen what she looks like, she's a very specific kind of trope. She has blonde hair. She's very slim. She's sort of pretty. She's a sort of, gives off a trad wife vibe. Is that fair? She looks like, like, like Trump girls. She looks like Trump girls are. I'm gonna read you a section from all or nothing. This was one of Trump's set pieces, always to be surrounded by attractive women who worked for him. He referred to them as Charlie's Angels. His relationship with them was a vanquiler and flirtatious. Alina Habba, who we've talked about extensively and Lindsay Halligan and Natalie Hart were part of the great entourage that accompanied him to the spring NCAA wrestling championship. Trump's subject of discourse at the NCAA event was which wrestlers that ladies with him found most attractive. Everybody seemed happy to play along or teaking the various bodies, rating them as their type or not. But Natalie couldn't be moved. Trump kept pressing her, trying to make her obvious point even more obvious to everyone listening in with disbelief and embarrassment. Oh, none of them, none of them, sir. I didn't find any of them attractive or anything worth looking at, which was to say, I only have eyes for you. It's very moving story, Michael. Very moving. She could have had a wrestler and instead she chose Donald Trump. The people in the campaign would know constantly the way she looked at Trump. And this was so much and so much almost of a kind of trope that they would surreptitiously take pictures of her staring at Trump particularly on the plane and then pass them to me. And I mean, it was, I mean-- Hopefully you have some of those pictures. I do. Good. So maybe we can come back and revisit new pictures on Thursday. So Natalie has basically become his social media person. She's also following him around, giving him messages of good luck and hope and cheer from fans. Now, and she is always with him. That most important rule in politics, access, she understands to a weird degree. So at some point I was passed and I was passed them for this precise reason that I was passed the manifest of the plane, Trump Force One, that ferried the candidate and the campaign team around the country during the 2024 campaign. And there is only one person through all of these, you know, 100 plus, probably close to 150 plane trips and the manifest there, that is on all of the flights, and that's Natalie. And on the matter of time, Manifest also, you can see where the people sit and she's always sitting right behind Donald Trump. It's worth pointing out that in all of these flights, Melania is only on one flight and she's being dropped off somewhere else. She's itching a ride. What is the impact on the first marriage? Why isn't Melania around more? Well, last time we saw her, she was at the FIFA World Cup final. Before that, the only time we'd seen her in July was for the July 4th celebrations. She's de facto left the stage and Natalie, as you say, was on every single manifest. And she is now in the White House, certainly hands down the person who spends the most time with the President of the United States. So she's his sort of emotional chief of staff. I mean, she manages access to. Yeah, all of that, but I think you go beyond, and there was during the campaign, early in the campaign, there was a joke, and people would say, "Oh, you know, ask the Chief of Staff," meaning asking Natalie. Later in the campaign, it was no longer a joke, and then in that led to incredible tensions within the campaign, which we should talk about. It doesn't appear to have any other life whatsoever, apart from being right by Donald Trump's side. We know that she has left him notes, and you have a note in all or nothing, which I want to read out. She leaves him little post-it notes in the personal spaces. I want to go back because I think that there's a progression in terms of understanding this. But also the nature, somebody in the President's close circle described Natalie's relationship to the President as a Christian devotional relationship. Now, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I think it really goes into "Tradwife" territory. Well, and also she was the one that posted a picture of him as Jesus and him as Healer. Okay, so we have a note here that she sent him that you print in full as far as I am. Let me just set the context of this. This note, she would print out whatever the material, the emails, the texts, the articles for Trump. In these prints out, she would slip letters, her own notes, love letters. And in several of these letters were then passed to me by people in the campaign. Okay, so I'm going to read one of the letters. All right, just to give it, just to set it up. Letters had started to surface from Natalie to Trump, passed around by his political and legal teams with bewildering and concern. And in credulity, portraying a relationship of an imagined alarming intimacy or one of genuinely strange submissiveness. There's your "Tradwife" thing. She slipped them into the stack of papers with which she was constantly supplying him. Okay, here's the letter. After going through all this self-analysis, my conclusion, I need to reunite my past self with my current into a better version who will make you proud. And please, when I fail -- She's writing a man who has been the President of the United States who is trying again to be the President of the United States, who will be the President of the United States. Okay, and please, when I fail, will you tell me you have the absolute right to cuss me out, if need be, when I deserve it, because no one knows or cares about me more. Okay, so she's obviously getting some kind of reciprocation from him. Thank you for always being there for me. I'll never forget when you made that promise to me after losing my dad and I know how happy he is right now that I did get to go to Scotland and Ireland as he always wanted that for me. To modify a classic, I could not have parted with you to anyone less, and I will add it is I who is unworthy, always Natalie. PS, my hands looked worse in Scotland and Ireland because the cold turns the old scars purple, still on the road to recovery, exclamation point. So we should point out that Natalie's father died by suicide. Her brother, who gave an interview to the Daily Beast, said that he thought this relationship was entirely unhealthy, that she had always denied publicly that her father had died by suicide. She said he died in his sleep, but clearly losing her father, however she wants to put it, had a big impact on her. And Trump is 45 years older than her. Well, and he's also the president of the United States. Well, he's not going to be the first president to have gotten a fair with the young woman. No, no, whatever her relationship with Trump is, it has also, and it's interesting because it kind of balances. There's this submissive, tradwife relationship on the one hand, but on the other hand, a relationship that has given her enormous power. Okay, so let's talk about the power that she wield because she apparently sends people back and we had a story in the Daily Beast about this today that when she has managed to get a letter from someone or a text or an email from someone in front of Trump, she lets them know by saying printed. That's her code word for I have given it and he has read it. Yeah, and she became, during the campaign, she became the person who was the congressional leadership had to deal, had to, if they wanted to see Trump, they had to go through her. So she's the gatekeeper. The media had to go through her. She was the gatekeeper and a, you know, which in itself is a very powerful position because you don't have to put people through. You don't get through unless she wants you to get through and so and that became a cause of enormous concern. She was concerned for everybody. People in the congressional leaders then would, would contact Susie Wiles, who was the, the head of the campaign and then became the chief of staff and said, who is this person? So who's more powerful now? Susie Wiles or Natalie Harp? Well, I mean, who is more able to get the president to do something specific, Natalie Harp? Susie Wiles, and actually, this is why Susie Wiles has been a success. She stays away from the president really and she regards her job as the chief administrative officer of the executive branch. So she's getting everybody else to do their jobs. Manadily is the person who is next to Trump suggesting to him what he should be doing or interpreting what he often interpreting what he wants done and then telling everyone else that. So she is the president's, she acts in the president's stead much more than the, than the chief of staff actually. Let's just talk about Natalie Harp's persistent. She's so persistent that during the campaign, when they move to Bedminster, she ends up basically sleeping in the women's locker room. One of the themes of the campaign and this is an overt theme of the campaign is what to do about Natalie. I mean, you have these people, these relatively responsible professionals, Susie Wiles, Chris Lasavita, Jason Miller, you know, these people who do this for a living, they run campaigns. And into their myths comes this person who doesn't run campaigns, doesn't know anything about politics, and who very quickly takes the primary position with regard to the candidate. Often undermining what they are trying to do. So this then became, what do we do about this person? What do we do about Natalie Harp who's writing these love letters to, to Trump? And so they first try to separate her from Trump. So she's on the golf course, she's following Trump in a, in her own golf cart with the, with the portable printer and with the papers, the papers. So they take away the golf cart, they take away just, just unavailable. And, you know, and this is another thing with, with Trump, you know, out of sight, out of mind. So he's in that, that's the theory, he's like a two year old, when the ball rolls under the sofa, objects impermanence or objects, she won't be there. And so he's not going to say where she goes, but what she does is she follows him then on foot. And there's, there's some video of her running after carrying the portable printer, running after the golf cart. Then, then in the summer of 2023, the campaign moves from Palm Beach to Bedminster, you know, Trump is a snow bird. doesn't. doesn't. doesn't. the spenders in Palm Beach. So they move up there and she's not allocated a room. Again, another way to split her, to distance her from Trump. She'll have to stay with the remaining group in West Palm Beach. Instead, she somehow arranges with the cleaning staff at Bedminster to get one of the maid's rooms. - So when you say she arranges it with the cleaning staff, do you think that Trump actually knows all about this and is saying to the cleaning staff which all naturally has a room? - No, okay. - She has just, she's integrated herself. You know, you're around this, you get to know who's there and if you're really good at this, you know all of the, all of the players. And in the players at Bedminster are not insignificant. You want to, this is all about leverage at every point. So she gets a maid's room. But the maid's room is not close enough to Trump. So she vacates that maid's room and spends the summer camping out in the women's locker room which is much better positioned in terms of proximity to the main house and to Trump. - So is she sleeping on what, a massage bed or is she sleeping on those like low lockers that you change your shoes on? I mean, because they don't normally come furnished with beds. - No, no, no, no. She apparently brought in, yes, some kind of mask. - Oh, sleeping house. She brought in a sleeping room. - Or in a yoga mat and something she may do. - Oh, not to me, her heart becomes more and more interesting. I mean, she's resourceful. Resourceful, I mean, she is, again, she is fighting all of the other professionals in this campaign and the secret service. - And she's winning. - So, and she not only is winning, but she has won. - Right, so now she's the second most important person in the White House. How does the first lady-- - And just let me, before, 'cause I just flashed on that there was a moment in the campaign, a moment of hydrama in which basically, basically, the campaign professionals decided they had to do something, what were they going to do? Among the discussion, should we go to Melania and lay out our concerns? And they decided that that relationship was so fraught that they probably should not do that, but they eventually decided. And this took a lot to go directly to Trump and say, this is a major concern. - And what did Trump say? - He said, oh, she just loves her president and waved them off. - So, she obviously makes him feel good in a lonely job. I mean, as it happens, I'm reading Robert Harris' novel precipice at the moment about the British prime minister, Herbert Asquith, who had to lead Britain through the beginning of the First World War. And he has, so Asquith is 60, he has a sort of emotional support in, and he's sort of obsessed by her, a girl called Venetia Stanley, who's in her early 20s, and 550 of his love notes to her have been maintained. She kept them all, and they're now, Robert Harris has put them in this book, and they are absolutely fascinating in terms of him telling her every secret. He amazingly includes telegrams from the German ambassador, saying we are on the eve of war. Germany is going to do this, and he's like my darling, please read this telegram. Now you understand what I have to deal with if only you were here, and of course she, her parents understanding what's going on and being extremely alarmed, remove her and take her to some godforsaken place where they have a house in Wales, and he's desperate to get there, and always contriving to get together. It's fascinating, and of course Margot asked with his wife, knew, kept very racy diaries, was monitoring who was having sex with who all times, but doesn't really chronicle this relationship except to say that she knows her husband loves being surrounded by a haram, and it made me think of Donald Trump and all the women around him and hope Hicks and Margot will have to. - Let's go back. I mean, I think it's an interesting thing. So remember, Donald Trump cannot be alone, literally cannot be alone. But his idea of being with people is not necessarily like your idea or my idea or anyone's idea. It's like literally having an audience. People there and their job is just to listen to him. Prior to his political life, most of these people who were listening to him were guys, and they were the driver, the bodyguard, the sound man on the apprentice who I spoke to for one of my books became one of his guys with him constantly. Saw him go off with other women, saw him, had to read books to him because Donald Trump doesn't read. - Had to read books to him, which books were they reading? - Your books. - Were they reading your books to him? - No, they were reading. He would say, you know, Trump would see him with a book. He said, "What's that book?" And would they be like, - And then he would say, - He would be like thrillers, it wouldn't be a bar and streams of my father. - Yeah, no more thrillers, random. You know, it's like with, with, you know, Trump, it's like a book, what is that, a book? And then he would say, read me something out of it. What do you like about it? Oh, read it to me, that kind of thing. So anyway, these guys would sit around. And I've been in there. I've been with Trump and there's a set of guys sitting around. And when I was, I'm one occasion when I was with Trump and I was with him in Beverly Hills. And he had a house in Beverly Hills and Trump and I are talking. And there are these guys sitting there playing cards. And that is security people, security people, drivers, service people, service people. And these are the guys. He's always talking to these guys and they don't really talk back to him or, oh, oh, oh, oh, they go. And they get him things. Yes, so when the campaign starts in earnest, his daughter, Ivanka and her husband, Jared, and I think they're kind of excited by the campaign, but they're also a little wary of this. It's Donald Trump. What is he going to do? Is he going to-- And he's running for president. Is he going to-- A whole new laugh, oh. Yes, is he going to embarrass them? Is this good for the brand, bad for the brand? They're all tied to the Trump brand. So they put in their person in this woman by the name of Hope Hicks. And Hope Hicks has no political experience. She's working for Ivanka as a PR person. And before that, she worked for Matthew Hillts. Yes, she's a PR person, but she's not even in that role. She's not really a professional. She's 26 or something like that. So she has a minimum of experience as a PR person, but she's a former model. She looks good. And in fact, she looks like Ivanka and looks like Melania. You start to see the development of this Trump look, which will then become ubiquitous around him. Right, the Mar-a-Laga, I love it. And she then becomes Hope Hicks becomes very, very close to Trump, or also in a kind of-- she obviously develops feelings for Trump, I mean, and feelings of admiration or infatuation. I don't know whether it's the power or the who knows. But she is always there. And she becomes-- Well, I don't know. Just it's an interesting job, right? So much more interesting being on a campaign, flying around the country than it is doing PR for Ivanka's fashion line. And she becomes one of the most powerful people in the 2016 campaign and then in the first White House. She's extraordinarily powerful. I mean, she is this person, again, with no experience whatsoever, becomes just right next to the president of the United, literally right next to the president of the United States, speaking for the president of the United States. Now, and so she becomes, and then there's a set of other women who pop up around her assistance, for instance. And they all look alike. They're all clearly cut from this same thing. They understand what Trump wants. He wants a woman. He wants a woman, a young woman, in her 20s, ideally with-- where's her hair loose, always loose? Nobody gets the tie it back. I mean, this really is tradwife kind of thing. Isn't this what most men want? Yeah, but most men can't have it ah-ha. Okay. That's interesting. Yes. That's interesting. Yes and short skirts everybody wears short skirts You know poor Kellyanne Conway who was significantly older than all of these women had to also dress like this Well, Suzy Wiles doesn't dress like no, well Suzy Wiles is it's one of those those Yeah, those exceptions that prove the rule. Okay. Is what that means also note notable that Jared put her in So I think Jared saw the whole picks thing reverse course and did the opposite of that but there was also and at this point the problems a new tension surfaces with Melania Because she these these women are around him. I mean they look like her in Melania gets incredibly upset because then the the press often Confuses these women with Melania. Well, it's really it's really striking how Hicks looks like Melania I mean this weekend there was a video released online from Mara Lago It was someone's social media post and I thought oh Melania is there she's sitting behind Trump if anchors at the same table as him with Melania's father and then actually someone says no, no, no that's Alina Harbour, but in the picture she looks almost identical to Melania so they have that long thick chestnutty hair And they're all many Melania totally and I mean she it's a major thing and Trump says to somebody along along away and this is in terms of hope Hope X She meaning Melania What's the quote? I just did I have a sub stack about the tensions with Melania because of specifically because of these girls and specifically because of Natalie Harb I think is live today But he says Trump says says someone she would like me to go off a Hypocritic bridge with her meaning hope meaning referencing obviously Teddy Kennedy and wow Yeah, so so he's aware of the Trump is aware of it. So it's really Natalie versus Melania Yes, and even people within the White House say that Natalie was one of the One of the people who was who argued for the ballroom and getting rid of the East Wing Wow Natalie was really big on the ballroom and getting rid of the East so she has been and people see this around Trump that she is working She has worked to put herself into the position that she is the woman closest to Donald Trump Well, and we don't know whether or not there was much sex between Melania and Donald either because very clearly at the end of her Documentary she makes it clear that they're not spending the night of the inauguration together Right, so it's very possible as people around Trump have speculated and this began in the first administration because everybody was worried You know one of the great womanizers of or or the self-styled great womanizer of our time Well wanting to beat Will Chamberlain's record of 20,000 What was that going to be like in the White House and then and then as the as the first term went on and people say, you know I don't think he's having sex at all So it could it was that sense You know that the libido had left the room or that the libido got channeled into power and you know Trump maxing Washington and just you know building You know triumphant arches to himself Yeah, no, I mean that was a Steve Bannon thing You know, I bet you were I bet you would prefer that him outfucking women instead of fucking the kind of Country, haha, so she's just what is her game plan here then she's just essentially Removed herself from American life. Well, I don't know from American life I think she probably has a perfectly decent American life. She has removed herself from political life and removed herself from Trump life which prompts Another question if she is not acting as the first lady how come the taxpayers have to support her I mean that's a I mean, I think a very particular kind of kind of issue which goes to Which goes to the You know, whether this is a complete sham or are you are you overlooking the fact that she turned up for the Easter aggro at the Well, I see does obviously does these and these are highly negotiated ceremonial appearances, but let's her and she does not live in the White House. She does not live she may not have And at least people in the White House believe that she has not spent a night at the White House during the During this term so well, and we know that he's taken the furniture out of her and she has I mean, Melania is built clearly building her own separate life her separate brand separate business Probably having a fine time about it, but she is let's let's be perfectly clear Not acting as the first lady of the United States. Do we know how Donald Trump's children get on with the Natalie what does Don Jr. and what does Eric Trump make of her and do we know how she gets on with Baron who's also not very much inevitable? I mean at one point during the campaign Eric got involved and said what is this person doing here and and he tried to take a proactive move to circumscribe her relationship with the president didn't work at all. There's the other element which is kind of distinct to Donald Trump Which is that he he just demands People who are abject people and and if you are willing to do that Mm-hmm if you are willing to echo what he wants channel what he wants not in any way Create any kind of friction around him then I think that that means you're you're in a in-like flint plus if you're a young woman If Natalie Ha disappeared tomorrow with Donald Trump notice. No Bruto Natalie did you hear that that's that's brutal because there are other people Strangely ready to take her place. They don't take her place because because while she is totally malleable totally Submissive to Donald Trump. She's fighting a vicious Rear guard action to keep everybody else out. Okay, so John Ossoff Raised her as he was giving her a speech To his supporters. He's obviously you know contemplating a run as the Democratic candidate for 2028 It's definitely hit a nerve. We know that magas supporters think that Milania is a class act They love Milania. They think she's elegant. She is elegant How does this play politically for Donald Trump and over alliance on Natalie Harp the fact that she's there the fact that his opponents are now calling out Natalie's omnipresence, you know, I I mean, I would say that You know, I I mean, I I've ceased being able to explain why things Why things don't Why the obvious is not obvious to everyone It is obvious that Melania Trump is The Melania Trump and Donald Trump's marriage is has bears no resemblance to anybody else's idea of a conventional marriage and that is putting it nicely. I mean, I'd say I'd say more specifically, you know, they live absolutely separate lives So but isn't that a kind of isn't that something that rich people do because they have many houses I Mean it's very easy to live separate lives and and mentee and you know, you come together for big holidays But to be the president of the United States means that you have you observe you are expected to observe some minimal conventions live with your wife and And if you have a marriage in which you have not been in this same house with your wife for the past two years that ought to raise some obvious questions. So do you think his supporters care? Are they going to turn their vengeful eye on Natalie Harp? Do they think Melania has? Well, I mean, I think it's I think it's I mean, this is always everyone the the The media has known that this relationship the relationship with Donald Trump and Melania Trump has been not a conventional relationship for since Donald Trump went to the White House in 2017. There is a reluctance to talk about this. I mean, perhaps suddenly we're getting to the moment where there's less reluctance to talk about this, but there certainly has been a reluctance to talk about this. - Well, and it took Jon Oshoff the senator from Georgia who's up for re-election in November to bring up the fact that Trump doesn't want to do his job. He wants to fly around in Griftforce one with Natalie. - That seems to be right on the dam or not to be hot. - That is obviously what a kind of hyperbole that he doesn't want to do his job. He wants to do his job in the way he does his job. I mean, he spends every waking minute as the president of the United States, as he construes that job. But it was interesting that Oshoff put Natalie and put Natalie by her first name into the narrative here that she is a significant, meaningful and quite possibly pernicious player in this administration. - Well said. - People should pay attention to. There are legitimate questions. I mean, actually, I invite someone in the press corps to stand up and say, hey, you know, what's with Natalie Hart? What is her job? What are her responsibilities? How much time does she spend with Donald Trump? You can go down the list of questions that ought to be asked about this person who has significant influence in the executive branch. - Well, and the other person we haven't mentioned who Oshoff comes out of the same sort of visual look is Caroline Levit, who's now leaving as White House press secretary. But as you pointed out, it has actually lasted quite a long time, certainly for a Trump administration. - So, I mean, so the question is, and maybe we are getting to this, who is Natalie Hart? - Well, and certainly John Oshoff's comments triggered the White House, Stephen Chung, who's always, you know, complaining about us and saying, you're a line piece of shit and I'm a bag of shit or whatever he's most imaginative insult of the week is when after Oshoff very directly. So, Natalie feels like someone Trump wants his team to protect. - Very much. I mean, his team has tried, let's be very clear about this. His team has tried to get her out. They have done everything, everything that they believe is possible short of their own resignations. And at one point in the campaign, it came very close to them saying, we're gonna resign if this continues. Now, they didn't, because, you know, they never do. And I think at that point, they were seeing a possible victory and they've come to think, well, we gotta deal with this. I mean, and God knows they deal with Donald Trump. - Well, and is it possible that he's nicer when Natalie's around, that if she's his emotional chief of staff, he's actually much easier to deal with if you know that Natalie's there? - She's always there. So, I don't think it makes any difference. Donald Trump is, comes with Natalie Harp. That's part of the package, any moment of the day. I mean, she sits right outside of the Oval Office. So, she's always this kind of, you know, ear cocked and always rushing in. Anything is happening there, she's there. - Wow, well, watch this space. I'm very excited to look at some of your photos. I know they're deep somewhere in your files, but you've got new photos that people haven't seen of Natalie Harp and she's someone you've been chronicling for what is it three years now? - Yeah, no, I mean, a totally fascinating story. And it's a particular Trump story. How these people, without rhyme nor reason, rise to this, have managed to come into the exact center of power in the United States. I mean, you know, and she's hardly the most, you know, the most extraordinary of these people, although she is the one who has probably gained more power and stayed at the center longer than anyone else. - And do we know who else Natalie talks to, outside of Trump? I mean, do we think there's anyone, I mean, I wonder if-- - Well, I'll give you some examples. You know, the question of the weird story of Laura Loomer, how did Laura Loomer get access to Donald Trump in ways that have been meaningful and impacted lots of decisions through Natalie? - So Natalie Harp brought Laura Luna into the circle of trust. - Yeah, Laura Loomer used to appear on the campaign plane. And then that was at the moment, somehow she's become vaguely legitimized just by her access. But at that point, she was just a, you know, a 9/11 denier conspiracist, you know-- - Oh, she also-- - A strange person. But she Natalie led her onto the plane. And, you know, Trump enjoyed her. And I think that she's Laura Loomer's presence in the White House, after the election for the last two years, has been because Natalie gives her access. - Well, you know, Trump has just imagines. Trump has no idea who's appearing in front of him. How does somebody come into the Oval Office? - Right, absolutely. - Nobody knows. - Trump doesn't know and doesn't care because it doesn't really see people. I mean, it's just the voice going, blah, blah, just as long as someone is there, bodies in front of him. - Right. - And just to set this scene, you know, the often in the White House, there are always a dozen people, often two dozen people, sometimes three dozen people in the White House. So people are just coming in and being kind of, and Natalie is kind of moving them to the, in the front of the desk. And then, and that gives you a moment, you know, a moment, first you have to listen to him and then but you might get a moment to say something. - You get access to that. - Yes, Laura Loomer will say, "Oh, that person is going to betray you, fire them." Okay. - She's like a sort of one of the witches from Macbeth. - Right, it seems to dignify the situation, but. - Well, well, what a fascinating story. And of course, as you say, she's hiding in plain sight. She's been there all along. And only now, since John Osof, you know, pointed her out, has the coverage really taken off, I think? - None of this makes any sense. So, is there a moment in which everybody comes to their senses and says, "Hey, what's going on here?" Or do we continue down this path? Yes. But Melania, I feel has a, could blow the whole thing up if she wanted to. - Just before we wrap up, I wanted to show you a gift that someone has sent us. It's actually a piece of the Berlin Wall. We were discussing this about three weeks ago. Here it actually is. I'm going to let you unwrap it from one of our fans, Noel Corker and Noel, thank you for watching, listening to the podcast, and particularly thank you for a piece of the Berlin Wall. Michael talks about actually being in Berlin for the end of the wall. And it comes with a certificate. It comes with a certificate. - It's a certificate from whom? - It's from the Germans, I guess. It's from original Berliner, Mauerstein, original Berlin Wall Brick. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It will go up on the Daily Beast bookshelf. Divided city no longer. - I don't see myself on the Daily Beast. - You know what, we've had several copies of your book and why here's what happens? It gets stolen. It gets stolen. It's really annoying. We will order more copies. - No, thank you very much. - If anyone steals the Berlin Wall. - I hope they don't steal the Berlin Wall. - Divided city no more. - No, thank you. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. We'll be back on Thursday with more about Natalie Harp and hopefully Michael will have found his photos of her by then. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passe, Heather Pessaro and Neil Rosenhouse. So the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.