Herd Management: Evolving Skills for Modern Dairy Farming

Hello everyone, it's Friday the 2nd of October and welcome to episode 311 of the kite podcast with me, Will Evans and me, Ben Eagle. Today on the show we are shining a light on all of you herd managers out there. We'll be asking how the role has changed in recent years. We'll be exploring the herd manager training program and looking at the skills you need as a herd manager, including people management and communication as well as technical skills. We're a full house, today add a joined by several people on the call to say kite consultant Marcus Doig, Dave DeBorder, who is also a consultant with kite as well as farmers, Fliss Cobb and Conor Dunn. We're also joined by podcast producer Becky Ray and everybody's favourite dairy market analyst Chris Walkland. Chris over to you for the milk market report. Where are you this week? Well, I'm bringing you my report from Ilminster today in deepest summer set wherever that is. Anyway, I'm here to give a Mr Matt Biss a monster shout out along with James Braille and Anna Collins from Buckland Newton, Archie Kingston from Crue Kern and Victoria Turner from Yeoville. So some positive noises of approval from these fine people please. Well, there you are. I didn't know we were giving shout-outs like 1980s radio DJs. Well, there's a good reason because these are all new entrants to the industry supplying Barbara's cheese. They've started their dairy businesses relatively recently, so hats off to them. They're Barbara's fourth new entrance of 2026 and the 16th to have started in the past five years. So a well done sticker for the fridge door to Barbara's as well for encouraging new entrance into our fine industry. And remember, every big farmer has to start somewhere. Howell and Sue Richard started with a handful of cows. I know that. Nick Cobb started with a quarter share in an old goat called, believe it or not, Rebecca. Two story, that, honest. To the market and no GDP this week, but a second pulse auction in a row, that doesn't happen very often and when it does, it's very exciting, isn't it, Will? Yes, it is, obviously. Yes, it is, yes. Anyway, Arles SMP sold for the equivalent of 3,322 euros, which is up 85 euros on the previous pulse. So that's pretty good. It's the same price as Dutch. Schym sold for this week and it equates to 2800 sterling. However, I'm told by Arle that UK Schym is as high as 2900 sterling. That's the highest price for four years. Schym is definitely the star of the commodity show at the moment and demand is apparently quite good. But the pace of increases we've seen over the last few months have slowed to nothing this week. Actually, and Dutch food grade held for the first time since August. The last is a stable mate. Butter continues to slide down the slippery buttery pole and Dutch origin dropped another 50 euros this week to fall below 4,000 euros again and some traders are listing butter at 3,650 euros probably, I think, for frozen. Our butter is higher at 3,500 sterling, but our sellers won't be able to sell more if the EU price stays as it is. And frankly, they need to sell for a lot to more if they're going to afford some of the milk prices that other processors are paying. Crane continues to bobble on in Europe and here it's in the mid 160s. I think the highest price I've heard is 168, the lowest 156. To put that in context, I think that if liquid processes are going to lift their prices by, say, 2p and the farmer expectation in some quarters is that they'll increase them more than that, then the cream price will have to be near or over 190 before they do and there's a long way to go on that front. The butter futures aren't helping butter and cream or, of course, linked futures are down for four consecutive weeks over which time they've dropped 340 euros to an average of 4,300 euros and this week they were down another 100 euros. So the recent high has been 4,700 euros and over the current highs 4,400 euros and again to put that in context, to get a £1.90 cream price. Here, European butter futures and the real market price will have to be £1,000 euros higher. In contrast to butter, those skin futures will they increased again by a very nice 200 euros to 3,450 euros and that's the highest for a long time indeed. To cheese and well, mozzarella is under some significant pressure. It dropped in Europe for 5 consecutive weeks but actually ticked up by 50 euros this week to a low of 3,400 euros say some traders but other manufacturers say it's at 3,550 euros. Those prices equate to between 2,903,000 sterling. UK sellers are about 3,100 but to pay a 36 pence manufacturing price which dairy partners in La Prino are on for October and November, the price really needs to be around 3,500 sterling so £400 up on where they are now. A mile chatter is holding I think at 3,400 sterling in the UK and is getting some support from the EX index which is still at 3,300 sterling. StoneX's futures are at 3,250 sterling but I am hearing of some prices lower than these and there is a gain some negative talk in the system. So I think it's worth repeating what I said last week that the market prices we're seeing elsewhere do not support the sort of milk prices that have been announced. So it's crunch time for cheese I think particularly mozzarella. High milk prices have been promised 39 to 41p, mature and extra mature prices will probably support these levels, current mile prices won't. Finally spot milk is all over the place but is generally between the high 30p to as high as 46p with a lot of breakdowns and shutdowns creating that range. So there you are it might not be what you want to hear but it is what you need to hear. And from one lot of youngsters at the start of my piece to another two, our guests, fresh from the herd managers course and thus both highly intelligent and quick thinking, just not intelligent and quick thinking enough to avoid being conned by Becky to come on our podcast. Take it away everyone. Goodbye. Thank you Chris. I'm going to do that. I'm just saying that everybody hates going to go around the room and ask you to all introduce yourself to the rest of the rest of the people here. Let's start with you, Fliss. Hi, I'm Fliss Cobb. I'm currently working on our 5th generation family run dairy business on the South Caster Dorset. I have been gaining as much experience as possible from other businesses within the agricultural industry to continue to expand my knowledge. Fab, thank you. I knew Marcus. Yeah, it's been I think a year or two since I've been on the podcast, so nice to be back on. Yeah, I consulted down in the Southwest, I had up the Southwest team, so do all things take care. local one farm. So you have quite a lot of work with mental processes as well. And then I facilitated the last year's herd management cohort, including Fliss and Connor. So we are handing that back on to Dane for 2027. So yeah, we're here to talk about everything in our advantages today. Thank you. And you, Dane? Hi, it's nice to be back although some of you might remember me back in May 25 during the Neils Christensen podcast as a farm manager for the Viger family. As part of a relocation, I moved to Herifature just outside HMY. And as part of that, joined as a dairy technical consultant for kite, bringing a wealth of practical knowledge to the team. And as part of that, yeah, going forward, going to be excited to facilitate the next cohort, going forward. Okay, thank you, Dane. And last but not least, Connor? Hey, I'm Connor Dunn. I'm Dave Harmon, Northern Ireland, looking for 100 cows on three games a day. And I'm heavily involved in running the family dairy farm and always keen to learn and give them the opportunity to do this. Okay, fantastic. Thank you, everyone. Marcus, how has the role of a herd manager changed over the last few years and specifically, what does it look like today? I think you're coming to me because I'm one of the old, old ones on my cool now, Phil. So, I think back to when I started my career, a pretty year out of uni and before 2013-14, I'm just, yeah, thinking back to then, a herd manager pretty much, I don't want to generalize too much, but milking, potentially doing some foot trimming a bit of AI twice a day, 12 on two off was the classic model, looking back then. And I know that does happen occasionally still, but I do feel that has reduced over the years, certainly coming into kite and throughout my sort of farm management background before. It certainly evolved quite a lot. I think people management has grown significantly, being able to manage a team is integral to the role now and we're getting so much data coming into all farms now. So, being able to analyze that, use that, interpret it and action it on the ground is really propelled, like the technical stuff hasn't gone away, but it's not just milking cows and getting cows in carp nowadays, that's just taken as a bit of a given that that's going to be done to high standard. It's all the extra stuff now, but the people management stuff is the really quick stuff. So, we've sort of honed on a bit about that in the last year with Conor and Flesse, so they can talk to you more a little bit. Yeah. Conor, would you agree with that? Is a big part of your role people management? Yeah, definitely trying to monitor the staff and not just trying to have everyone have their own roles and not get, and then you raise them. Yeah, I know what you mean. Would you agree as well, Flesse? Yeah, I would agree. I would also agree, like, technology plays a big part nowadays, like, because we've just put need out of colours in here and that's changed it a lot. So, yeah. How do you think that's going to change what people do Flesse like, how they manage the accounts? Just in a different way, like, the manager has to be more into technology. It's easier, well, in some ways, and then in other ways, it's just have to understand and overall in time, I think it will become a lot easier. All right, then. Dane, for someone who hasn't heard of the heard manager training programme, can you explain what it is? Certainly. It comprises of eight modules and 24 hour study tour at the end. We look at people management as we've touched already. It's a huge area. And as Flesse mentioned about technology, it's about communication. Not everyone's going to understand that technology and be able to interpret it. So, we look at that, how we build old communication with the team, and everybody has different communication styles. Some people like it direct. Some people need more explaining and understanding. So, we touch on people profiling in insights. We then look at business management. So, the usual KPIs, cost of production, benchmarking, dairy financials, feeding stats as well. We then go into health and welfare, looking at not just diseases, loneliness, but also, as we said, using the technology to be able to interpret what looks good, what doesn't look good. With all this technology in AI, AI is a learning program, and if all the cows are, if I generalize, underperforming, as the system that you have, AI will learn that that is the norm. But it's understanding what looks good on KPIs, and every farm's different. One farm's KPIs will look good to another person's will be different. We look at fertility and genetics, understanding that. We're going to soils, nutrient sustainability, going forward with nutrient use, nitrogen use efficiency, looking at how we can manage our practices on farm, be more efficient and sustainable. We then look at nutrition and the environment, saying again. We then look at young stock. So, from calf to carving effectively, how we can maximize genetic potential within the herd, looking at the pinch points within a system, how we can get best efficiency from those animals. We look at the most important of all of this is feed and forage, producing good forage, especially the hot topic at the moment with the El Nino, looking at where our weather patterns are going forward. There's been very much grass or grass and maize, and it's looking at more emphasis on whole crop and spreading the risk upon multiple forages so that you have better flexibility when it comes to feeding your dairy herd. A lot of ground gathered. Yeah, absolutely. Fliss and Connie, you've both been through the program. What were you hoping to get out of it before you started? Fliss, if you go first. I was recommended the course by a number of people. I was really looking forward to it, sparing my knowledge within the industry at a higher level, and this course has provided that to me. I was also really excited to meet like-minded people and they could bring different ideas to on the table, discussions. I was thinking, well, I think we're probably going to have to ask a question. How important is that sort of other beat people or the cost colleagues being Fliss? I think it was really important. You would never meet those people if the course wasn't there. I don't think I would have met anyone on the course if the course wasn't there just out of instance, but seeing other people's ideas really brought a like to see that there's different ways of doing things, and how other people have a view on things. Yeah. There's actually such a big variation across this cohort, like you guys will jog with me from, say, Connor, Northern Ireland, yourself, Fliss down. On the South Coast, people, all the way across Sins or Pembroke Streetway and range of systems as well. We've had split Bob Carvers, three X, Autumn Blocks, Spring Blocks. So there's been such a range of systems and you can probably pull bits out of each system and question what you're doing at home I think is thought-provoking. Yeah, absolutely. Fliss, I've just realised I know you found your way most, don't you? I know where your farm is. I went past it not long ago. I know where you are. I feel you're coming up with a classic farm instance. Farm instance is just small, small industries, isn't it? Yeah, I know where you are. Connor, what did you expect from the program and what did you think as you went along? As mainly just looking to learn from other people and see different systems and pick up new ideas and the same was Fliss said that meeting like-minded people and knowing them and like having their contacts to speak to them on the future. Yeah, they're all gearing me up to do an America trip next year. They really want to eat this group going. What's up? Connor, what topic did you learn the most from and why? Probably say the business topic allowed them all to run because looking at different systems like all year-owned, block Calvin, more, like seeing the heritage of fish and say from them and the routine profit that really like opened their eyes up to different ways of- that you can different ways of farming and seeing the benchmarking from them. [BLANK_AUDIO] the biggest thing was seeing different farms when we went out on farms and seeing the way they operated and getting to speak to the farmers and seeing the system on the way they manage it. How did you both hear about the program in the first place? Well, I first seen it on Facebook and then it was back to you, I think, wasn't it? I think that might be my show. I heard a guy on the previous course last year's course as well as dad and a number of other people recommended it to me. I was reflecting on this earlier, I was trying to think why we sort of started it in the first place Marcus, you know, because this is the third cohort now, is that second? Yeah, third. Third, I think, yeah, a while ago it was originally split a few years ago, wasn't it? And I think just in terms of I think it stemmed from people management, I'm sure that the whole crux of it and getting like-minded people together. Yeah, there's so many skills that it's not just being able to milk cows and spot things with utility and health. We've got the tech to do that. It's the whole round of picture now for a herd manager. So being able to bring all the modules that Danes talked about and build groups like this is you guys are the future. I think the course also gives a safe space with the people on the cohorts, with the WhatsApp group and looking at questions that have been bounced across, you know, we've got this problem, being on the course, going on farm and we encourage the participants of the course actually host. We feel that you get the most from that because not only you look at what you're learning but you actually can put it into practice on your farm. I don't know if you want to mention a bit more about that Felicity because you know we came there and also Conor on the set. I also think like when you walk around every day yourself, like you don't quite pick up on things that maybe if you bring other people to come around your farm and they can bring their ideas and like see things that you might not see every day because it's just like normal to you so they can pick up on different sort of things that you wouldn't see perhaps. And I think as the group grew and got to know each other more, there wasn't really any holding back in terms of constructive criticism of each other going around, like it was very much water and all come around our farm. We're opening the doors, like feel free to constructively criticise what we do here within reason. So I feel like the rapport you guys built up, like it was very open sharing across the whole year to be honest, especially doing that people profiling a session on the first one and get the ice break right out of the way and you really got to know each other for a year and definitely did it at the study trip. I feel like there's a tall star to be told. There's a real piece here isn't it when you start to think about, you know, people coming either back onto family farms or embarking on their herd manager career or stepping up and you do it often get the time or space or I don't know whether whether the world allows you to take a step back and say well actually I'm pretty strong on genetics or I'm pretty strong on business management but I'm a bit weaker on this and to actually go into a safe space with a group of people where we take everybody back to a point and you know train quite intensively against each subject area and the other bit is learning to do that group a bit. You know some of the really successful businesses that we work with have formed these really strong groups that they go to, you know, the frequency drops off one of the time but it's quite a daunting thing to do if you think you're going into an established group and everybody else knows each other and then maybe maybe you're new to the group on to the farm or new to the business. I think it there's a couple of objectives isn't there where and a couple of reasons why why this then appealed to people and why you, you know, why people have got so much out of that. You've also got that group for life back year when it is well not one of whenever I've done these sort of things or spoken people who are you, it's about the experience of what you've done then but actually yeah, you've got those contacts forever really. Yeah, really interesting was a farm as we called last night and you know when you talk about contacts and you did it early well oh yeah no way yeah, I don't know where you farm, you know farming is all about contacts isn't it and it's all about having that support network and yeah these guys have now got a really strong support network in each other where they know a bit about each other's businesses and know a bit about each other and sort of in that that cohort together. It's really special. I mean on that cohort on that network Fles and Marcus has already spoken a little bit about the variety of systems and places as well that people in the in the group were coming from so as you're experiencing that you're experiencing what you actually covered on the program itself and you mentioned a little bit on about the impact it's had on your own farm but I wonder if you just do a little bit more detail into that in terms of how I suppose seeing all that and experiencing that and speaking about those differences with others as it changed the way that you think about your own farm. I think overall it's like broad and my understanding of like how different dairy business are trying to like aiming to achieve different markets as such like for example we saw a jersey head that obviously trying aiming to achieve the high butter fat content to fill to fulfill the demands of the contract and it's very different to back at home so it's just a different perspective on all of that really. Connor? Yeah definitely like seeing different farms as well and I hope people is doing things. It doesn't mean your systems are wrong but it means that you could take like something from their system and implement it on your farm. Yeah I mean on that as well is there anything specific would you say that you learned or you picked it up that you that you sort of come back and think you know what yeah I'm going to can actually do this I'm going to this is going to be implemented on the farm. That's well seeing like different scale like the legs of flesors going from like three thousand goes till other farms was milking like two fifth days or eight hundred and would make you like want to expand your business and see how you can expand and like butter farts and proteins and brutality. Plus anything that you learned? Just overall like all the different systems and how like there are so many ways of doing the same thing but differently like everyone like you can all keep implementing anything into there's like different ways to do it all the time. There's no right or wrong way I think. Yeah I mean Mark has been both of this this group but also other groups as well you must have seen sort of it must be great I suppose to see the changes and development in in members of the group as they go both during the course itself but also afterwards. Yeah definitely I think from day one in it feels a while ago I think it was like about a year ago to the day almost we did this sort of people session so that was done on purpose to try and obviously everyone coming together and never met anyone on the course so it was kind of nice to do the people element and the profiling and seeing the change in a lot of the group the dynamic in the group like I was shocked really from day one like everyone was very open and the like you can thank the facilitator I suppose for that for doing such a good job being there bringing everyone together from day one like it was very open and the confidence I've seen people grow over the year to yeah question each other like it's always been very yeah very open on farm there's been a lot of a lot of banter mainly aimed towards me over the year but yeah I give it back to them so yeah they they've really been a pleasure to to work with this year and like it's just been nice to see people people's confidence grow and just the enthusiasm like quizzing the farmers like were in Ireland last week they were really just well I've just followed questions and it was just it was really nice to see sort of stepping back and not really having to facilitate as much or that dainty a bit as well. Let's let's broaden out and then Marcus you already spoke a little bit at the beginning in terms of skills for her manager you spoke about communication you spoke about people management especially but what do you just go a little bit more detail, I suppose, in terms of those skills and data. I'll ask you about this today in terms of being technically good with cows. Probably isn't enough now. So, how do you really make yourself stand out, I suppose, in the role? Yeah, no, technically as we sort of touched on, you know, historically it was managing smaller herds. You were doing foot trimming AI in. And technology, you look at the last 10 years and where we've gone, we've gone robotics, we've got AI looking at monitoring with body conditions doors and mobility. And then we're also collecting so much data now. You look at uniform and dairy comp and how much data that you can gather and analyse. And you go from, you know, all this cows got mastitis and you start looking at data as I heard, managing, you sort of think, well, hang on a minute, I've had eight cows in the last two months with mastitis, you know, is there a trend? What's going on? We need to start looking at the data. Is there something that we're doing? How can we improve? Is it processes? You know, are we doing something? Have we changed something? And is that broader looking at it from a bigger picture and having an understanding? And they're not actually engaging with the team. You know, one thing we advocate is, you know, weekly team meetings on farms. Farms have got a lot bigger. A lot of it is down to family work life balance, especially with COVID. The next generation coming through into the industry are very aware of that, you know, family life and having a bit of fun as well as work, you know, work hard play hard. And, you know, we have more staff. It's not just full time staff. There's part time staff that are involved as well. And it's communicating where you might have only had one herdsman on your farm. You might have two or three part time. And it's that communication and due diligence to make sure that each person is doing the same thing. And it is, you know, is a challenge. As Connor said, you know, making sure that people don't, you know, in stressful times, conflict resolution management can come in now and again. And it's being able to deal with that. And the course gives you an in-depth insight into all of those. And also with technology, you know, if you're not computer literate, for example, understanding what a KPI is, what, as we say, what looks good, what looks good from your farm, but then also having a realistic understanding of where you're going to go. Connor's farms, KPIs, for example, are going to be completely different to felicities. That will be driven by genetics, you know, geolocation and milk contract. So it's looking at all of those aspects and giving those cohorts the tools in the toolbox to be able to utilize that. When it comes to people management and communication markets, is that, I'm assuming, that's something that you can learn as you sort of develop it as you go on on the job, isn't it? I think so. I think understanding yourself, firstly, because I'm very into the profiling and all of that. And yeah, Becky and I, we've go back a few years with this, don't we, and understanding each other? I feel like you should tell the story. I'm telling the story. Oh, I used to, yeah, one word you love from Becky and that's how Becky rolls. It wasn't like what was dramatized by ring. It wasn't. Look, I had a simple message which was, "Please, can you ring me?" And I put it in the subject line of an email and sent the email to Marcus. I've been in capital as I can't remember. It was not in capitals. With some explanation marks. I agree face emoji. I thought that was extremely efficient. I thought I was extremely efficient and Marcus and I did an insight profile in session together, I did a three, four, five months later. And they put this up as an example of, you know, how would you respond if somebody sent me an email with just a subject line completed? And Marcus was like, "There is nothing more in worrying than receiving an email." And I was like, "It's so efficient." You knew exactly what I wanted, didn't you? Didn't you like to work on the email? Is there an lies a difference? Yeah, so I was just working together with like, yeah, Becky's probably more of a red direct approach and more of a green team. Not saying you're not Becky, but yeah, I think we all approach things differently anyway. So understanding yourself, like the so-which was a big part of the first session and being able to flex how you manage your management style because in your team you'll probably have ranging from the people with only top yellow or the higher head in the sky type of philosophy and then those sort of direct characters. So it can be, as we say, conflict, understanding how people operate and tailoring your management skills to how they want to be managed is quite a skill in itself. So understanding yourself is the main thing. Now obviously everyone's going to come onto the program with slightly different names, things they want to get out of it. But for you Marcus, what do you want them to walk away from it being able to do or is it about a different way of thinking? Is it about practical skills? It's a bit of both. I think a lot of the people on the course this year, pretty much one of them very good technical operators on the ground already. So I think coming understanding themselves firstly, learning things from their peers, like getting off farm because like Chris said earlier, like when you're on your own farm, you're very much used to seeing what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. You get a bit blinkered almost and this is the system, this is how we operate. This is the way dairy farming is, but actually spending time with springblock harvest, for example, and you're fully housed as 3x. It's quite hearty opening and maybe you're not going to change your system completely, but there might be, oh, actually, you're doing something. Why don't we think about implementing our grazing, improve our grazing for our young stuff for example? So I think just the peer-to-peer learning has been one of the things I've wanted the cohort to get out of it and confident. So I think on day one, you could tell quite easily some of the group are more introverted than others and I feel actually building relationships with each other by the time we were all in Ireland last week, like everyone was fully enthused before we got to the pub and yeah, just everyone was very much open throughout the year, so that's really what I want to get people out of the year, just going confidence and being open-minded, different. It sounds brilliant. I wish I could. We're so young enough to go on it. Conner, what's the one session on the programme you think every herd manager should attend? Probably the nutrition session because the importance of, like, energy requirements and cows and like, different stages of the electrations, what they, what energy they require and for, like, growth in young stock and how it provides the different levels of fat and protein to the milk. Okay. Did you enjoy that one as well? Is that something you got a lot out of nutrition? Yeah, I really enjoyed that one. I also think that the people management one was really interesting because I think that's a key part of the dairy industry and well industries nowadays, really, communication and everything. Absolutely. All right. The last question to you both, Flist and Conner, if someone listening is sitting on the fence about applying, they've been thinking about it and they've been putting it off, what would you say to them, Flist? I'd just say sign up. It's good fun. You meet a load of people. It's a great social and brings a lot of knowledge and stuff you wouldn't get elsewhere that other courses wouldn't offer as such with, like, in the classroom and out the classroom. So I say sign up. You won't regret it. Okay. And you, Conner? Just go for it. Even if you think your home system's perfect, you can always learn something from another one and don't have to change your system from being out of it, but you can just open your eyes up from seeing it and think it's definitely worth failing and encourages you to just keep learning and change your business and grow it. And if anyone says they don't have time, Conner flew over to 11 times. So I think, yeah, hats off to you Connor. So yeah, that's that's what I've the feedback I got with a few people was always finding time on the farm, but it's important to get off farm. Yeah, really is is an investment in your career. Yeah, that's the key word isn't the investment. In in previous cohorts, I don't know this one quite as well, but there's been there's been farmers where sons and daughters where there's existing farms at home. Is there any like you and Jane were both herd managers who were not on family farms? Is there been a couple of people on this year's car who in the same position? Yes, yeah, just thinking through the code. Yeah, there's there has been a number actually to be fair. I'm just thinking of you individuals. So there are it's not just family, family operators, sons and daughters on the course at all. There's been a lot of extra like a couple of brothers from, yeah, they were both on the course from non, yeah, not their farm at all. So it's not just open to family operators at all. And it's great to see entrance coming into the industry that aren't aren't just from family farms. Yeah, no, I'd also like to say, well, you know, it's not just you said they're mentioned about young enough. It's open to all and all stages, you know, if you're assistant herd manager looking to go further, expand your knowledge, then please sign up, you know, it's not just those that are existing herd managers. It's those that want to further their career or have a better understanding within the industry. So yeah, certainly get in touch with your employer and employers, you know, investment in employees is is highly rewarding, especially on motivation within your business. And it's certainly of course to inspire other people within your business that you may not have other thought about as we said with the people profiling some people are introverted, they just do their day to day work and sort of do as they're told in the background where actually they could be your next her manager and and take your business to the next level. So I certainly say, you know, open your eyes up think about it. Have you got anyone within your business you'd like to invest in and this is certainly the course for you. And I suppose the final question is how do people apply? Well, hopefully the QR code. There's a form and sign your interest, get in touch either in for a kite consulting or myself, Dane, doctor border, kite consulting, express your interest and go from there. OK, all right, then that's been a brilliant episode. That's all we have time for a very big thank you to our guests, Fliss Cobb, conodon, Marcus dog and Dane to border as well as Chris Walkland and podcast producer Becky Ray. Thank you also for listening. Please see the show notes for more information, including our podcast disclaimer. We will be back with you next week, but for now it's goodbye from all of us here.