Her Money. Her Work. Her Power: From Survival to Independence

Speaker 1 Welcome to Talent Talks, a podcast brought to you by Her Wealth Network and supported by Scottish Widows. Her Wealth Network is a professional networking group run by volunteers, with all contributors offering their time pro bono. Our mission is to equip women with the skills they need to achieve success in their careers. We hope you enjoy this podcast and share it with your friends and colleagues as we highlight the experiences, challenges and successes of women in financial services. Hi everyone, and welcome back to Talent Talks, the podcast from her Wealth Network. I'm your host, Sarah Sandell, and today's episode is 1 I think will really stay with you. We're talking about what it truly means to be financially independent, not just in terms of income or wealth, but in terms of choice, control and freedom. Because for many women, financial independence isn't just a goal, it can be a turning point. Today I'm joined by the lovely Lily McNally, a data and tech specialist at Lloyds Banking Group. And Lily brings a really powerful perspective. Someone who has navigated A deeply challenging personal experience and come out the other side with a completely redefined sense of independence. Lily, thank you so much for being here and talking to me today. Speaker 2 What a brilliant intro, Thank you very much, it's lovely to be here. Speaker 1 So if we get started on, have a little bit of background about your own story and clearly, you know, share as much as little as you're comfortable with. But if you can, share a bit about your journey and the experience that reshaped how you think about independence. Speaker 2 Yeah. So for a bit of context, a number of years ago, I went through a period in, in my life that just felt really unstable. So emotionally, practically and financially, what I've had to do is essentially rebuild everything. So you know, my home, my finances, my independence, which was a big element of being able to rebuild the other two. And since then I've, I've been working really hard to just create a life that feels stable, one that feels safe, and most importantly, one that that feels like fully my own. And I do really feel like I have complete autonomy over my own life and my own decisions now, which is amazing. But I think, you know, in context of today, like that journey has really changed how I think about financial control and independence. And I think that finances and independence are, are very linked. And for me, independence isn't just about income. It's, it's actually about having choices. And it's about knowing that your life is is in your own hands. Speaker 1 Absolutely. And without going into anything, as I said, that you're not comfortable with, what did that period sort of teach you about control and choice and things like security? Speaker 2 Yeah, So I think the main thing that it taught me is that loss of control it it doesn't happen all at once. It doesn't happen overnight. I think the analogy that I like to use here is it's the the frog in the boiling pot. So if you throw a frog in a boiling pot of water, it jumps out straight away. It's hot, it doesn't like it, it's gone. But if you put a frog into cold water and you gradually warm it up over time, it doesn't realise it's boiling before it's too late. Control it. It happens really gradually and it happens in ways that are actually strangely easy to rationalise in the moment. And what on the surface can look like support and care can actually sometimes slowly erode your confidence and your autonomy and also like the visibility that you have over the really important parts of your life. And I think, you know, from a, from a gendered perspective, it really made me realise that security as, as a woman, it's about not letting someone else take care of things for you. It's really important as women that we are enabled to make all of the important choices about our own lives. Speaker 1 Absolutely. And do you think there was a sort of specific moment that kind of in your head, you remember, when you sort of things sort of shifted from that what you call like a sort of survival mode to sort of rebuilding, you know, your life again? Speaker 2 Yeah, so I think when when I got the keys to my first house and I bought it all on my own and, you know, there, there was a really long journey ahead of me, but that was the first moment that I felt like I'd really stabilised things. Actually, I have a really vivid memory of walking back from the nursery and walking toward my own house. And it was Christmas and I'd put lights up on the outside of the house. And I remember like welling up with tears and feeling really emotional as I was walking toward like my home that I owned and just feeling, you know, I've, I've made it and, and I'm safe and I have this fortress now. And that memory like always sticks out for me. Is this really pivotal moment? Speaker 1 Yeah, I think having your own home is is so important, as you said, like that safe space. And I think most of us just take it for granted. So if you'll be in the situation where it makes you feel uncomfortable, it's it is no longer your safe space. So I totally understand that. And then one of the things that we don't really talk about enough is how financial dependence can sort of quietly shape and limit our options, which you alluded to a little bit there. So how do you think that quietly limits someone's options in a, particularly in a relationship? Speaker 2 I think we can't walk away from the fact that we live in a capitalist society, right? So money isn't an abstract thing. It's it's not just ones and zeros and pounds and pence. Money is fundamentally power. And therefore, if money is power, money also can mean autonomy. It can mean control, it can mean freedom of choice for people. And actually, if you think about it, if you control someone's money, you control that every move. And interestingly, that's why train companies have a policy where they need to offer free train travel for people who are escaping abuse because the research has found that women sometimes can't leave because they simply can't access money to buy a train ticket without a rising suspicion. And like, if you take a step back from that, that is the control of money controlling physical movement. So it's it's so linked. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think you wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily think that, you know, in that way if you've never been in a situation. But I know Lloyd's offers something similar that if, you know, you need to fill your home, that you can do that as well, which is I think it's a great thing. And I don't actually think it's particularly well publicised. So I know that I've sort of talked about it in various meetings when sort of these kind of subjects have come up. Why do you think that this topic isn't really talked about enough, especially among professional women, do you think? Speaker 2 Shame. I think shame does play a Really big role unfortunately. And, and also like misunderstanding. I think there's a real tendency. I think we've come on massively, right. I, I absolutely think that, you know, think of my mum's generation in comparison to my generation. We definitely talk about this monopoly and that's great. But I think there's still a bit of an undercurrent and a tendency to assume that, you know, if someone is capable and, and educated or, you know, professionally successful, that they should automatically recognise healthy, like unhealthy dynamics. But you know, it's, it's not that simple. Life is really that simple. These situations are really complex. They're really gradual and they are deeply psychological. So you know, what I'm doing today and, and, and what I'll continue to do is trying to advocate for much more open and like really informed conversations without any judgement. Speaker 1 I totally agree. I think there's definitely, to me, it makes me think more about the kind of access and, and visibility to having these options because and you don't know what you don't know if someone else has controlled your money or your choices, you've got to start all over again. And you've, you know, you said that the shame of that and the kind of just lack of understanding. So you've got to completely educate yourself and you're already trying to, you know, haul yourself over the coals to go back into something which you understand is a normal type of life. That's a lot of pressure, isn't it, on people? I think definitely. Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. Speaker 1 I think talking more about rebuilding confidence, I think we often hear this idea that confidence is something that needs you need before you make a change. But I think your experience suggests something quite different. So what? What do you think? What's your kind of thoughts about that? Speaker 2 I think, I think confidence is something that that you that you build and confidence is it's, it's kind of like an outcome rather than a, than a starting point. I think especially for, for, for women, confidence around money. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. We have to be very conscious of the society within which we live, one that's shaped by history, culture, education, lived experience as well. And actually, you know, if you look back over the years, women have had a lot less encouragement to engage deeply with money investing, for example, as well, long term financial planning. I think it's really important to note that we are actually starting at a disadvantage on that front. I think like a really interesting thing to note here is women have only been allowed to open a bank account without the permission of a man 50 years ago. Speaker 1 That's shocking. Speaker 2 So that's within my mum's generation. So if you think about it like that, we've had less time and less access to tools and financial education in order for us to like gradually upscale ourselves over time. And I think that it's had a really big cultural impact on how people think about women and finance. And also, I think as well, it's about how women think about themselves in relation to money. And with that confidence piece, you know, if you're starting from a point where maybe you think that you're, you're less capable because there's been years and years of women being told that they are less capable when it comes to money. The confidence that needs to come with like repetition. We're still, of course, we're still rebuilding financial confidence. We've had less time at it and we've had a less encouraging environment. And you know, if you think about some of the systemic barriers, like women are more commonly expected to do unpaid care. They're paid less than their mere male counterparts. Girls are paid less pocket money than boys as well, which I just find absolutely fascinating. And women don't invest as regularly because they don't see themselves as being able to navigate those products. And we've actually seen some of this come out in in research. So I think, you know, we are still unpacking all of this and that's important for anybody listening and feeling like I don't know where to start. I feel like I'm innately going to be less good at this because money and finance isn't really my thing. Like, remember that you're starting from a place of disadvantage to begin with. So of course you're going to be a little bit more scared. But if you just keep at it, take small steps, build up your confidence over time, you'll be amazed to see like where you get to if you just keep at it. Speaker 1 Absolutely. I think there's some really good, good tips there. What do you think or what role did regaining control, financial or otherwise, play in rebuilding your conference, do you think? Speaker 2 Oh, huge, a huge role. So you know that that period of time and rebuilding my life and like everything that's happened, it really has made me who I am today. I know that's a really big statement to make, but genuinely it has shaped me into who I am today. And I think it was kind of like a knock on effect. So once I started understanding my finances and I started making decisions for myself, you know, I was seeing progress my, my confidence. It started to build and build and build and grow and grow and grow. It's positively impacted my career. I don't think I would be in the role that I'm in today without, you know, going through that situation and getting myself back up again and realising how capable I actually always was. It also has changed like my relationships. And I think the most important thing is that it's really changed the way that I look after myself. Like I've got a lot more love and and care for myself than than I have before because I feel like I deserve that love and care. Whereas before I didn't feel like that. But yeah, it wasn't instant like, you know, it was. It was definitely step by step. Speaker 1 I think that's very honest to say that because I think, I think we're all guilty of not giving ourselves enough love and space and we always worry about doing things for others. But if we're not in a good space ourselves, then we can't actually make good decisions, financial or otherwise, really. And I think that, you know, think about how customers can be vulnerable or, you know, as people, we can be vulnerable during different periods in our life that we don't really think we underestimate the effect that emotional baggage comes when it comes with you and, and have a relationship or something that's all that's happened to you, whether it's at work or at home. And how, you know, you need to really kind of rebuild yourself again. And it takes time and you know, you can't, you can't just do it overnight a bit like you've said. What do you think were the first sort of small steps that helped you kind of get that independence again? Speaker 2 Thinking the first step for me was, was getting really clear on the facts. So almost tipping, it almost felt like lifting rocks up and going, Oh my goodness, I didn't know that was under there. And that was scary, right? But doing that gave me total visibility of my financial picture and what was actually going on. And after that it was about, you know, because I can feel like a big overwhelming thing. Oh my goodness, how did I start to tackle this? For me, it was about breaking things down into really manageable steps rather than trying to solve everything at once. And actually that is a bit of a fatal flaw of mine. Like I'm someone who will try and like try, I've got to solve the big thing immediately right now, all at once. But actually it's, it's too big a thing to solve all at once. Also learn the value of information. So understanding what support exists, what rights people have and also where to go for help at that. I found that really, really empowering. And you know, I know people say it all the time, but I think this experience really hammered home for me that knowledge is power. But I also made sure to share that knowledge wherever I could. So, you know, during that period of time, I'd be going into support groups each week and letting all of the other women know what I'd what I'd found out and what were the numbers and who were the people to call. Because I felt like I'd spent so much time deep diving and research. And I wanted to do my best to share that information out to everybody that I could because it is actually really tricky to navigate like what support out is out there for you. Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you're in a sort of deep, dark place, it's, as you said, that whole picture, it's like, Oh my God, and where do I start? So, you know, it's that, it's that phrase. Now, how do we eat an elephant where you just eat it in chunk? You don't eat the. Speaker 2 Whole thing A frog. Speaker 1 To an elephant on this podcast, Yeah, exactly. So you've spoken about money as more like a form of protection, really. So what does that mean to you now? Do you feel? Speaker 2 Yeah, if I think, if I think about money now it's it's about like it represents for me stability also choice like massive and and Peace of Mind. Every month I put a lot on my pay packet into like savings and investments and and pensions. And I know that I'm I'm probably overcorrect and a little bit like I am aware of that and I know that that that strategy isn't right for everyone. But for me, like there's quite an emotional thing with money and savings feel like my fortress now. And I don't know what life is going to throw at me. Like no one can predict the future, but I do. I kind of feel like I've got this protective layer around me now and that makes me feel really safe and the buffer, it gives me options. And it also makes me feel really confident that if I ever did have to, I've got a lovely partner now. He is like a beautiful human being. But I now know that if I need to stand on my own 2 feet again, I can absolutely do it. Like I've got this. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's that's so important because I think it's easy to just think that you found someone else who can give you what you originally wanted or thought you maybe thought that you had, but you still have to protect yourself. And I think it's not. I'm not trying to say that it's all doom and gloom. You should always think about all this relationship might end, but I think it's just for women in general to, you know, like grab the independent while that's in a relationship. You know, when someone's talking to you about money, don't be the one who sits there and says, oh, I don't know, I'll leave it to my partner, male or female. I don't. I think it's just about having that equality in the conversation. I personally have been guilty for this. I've let my husband deal with lots of those things and it's only really now that we're thinking kind of longer term, like more towards retirement. I'm not suddenly set up and go, all right, so what's going on here then You know, and that's to be honest, it's too late. We need to start sort of thinking about these sort of things much earlier. So on that point, a good segue into what your relationship is with long term savings like pension specifically, How did that change after your experience? Speaker 2 Yeah, like massively, I think I now see long term savings and, you know, investment, it's like a form of self protection, but it's also a form of self respect. Like when I'm talking about, you know, learning to to love yourself, I think one of the ultimate acts of, of loving and respecting yourself is like making sure that you're going to be financially secure when you're done working. And I think that I'm really focused now on making sure that future me like does have a nice retirement. I think that I've worked really, really hard to deserve it. And I'm like, you know, I'm no, I'm no longer in in survival mode. So I'm actively able now to think about, you know, how to build on and how to how to improve my my, my situation. So this point is just about like constantly optimising that. So you can tell, you know, a bit of a design background there, constant iteration. But yeah, the whole experience has made me much more intentional about pensions and and long term planning for sure. Speaker 1 I think it's really hard though for a lot of people. Women, men, doesn't matter about thinking sort of long term, especially when you're young. I think about my own kids in their 20s and one's great with money, one's not so great with money. And you think about independence, especially when, like, you're a stable situation now for you or for other people. But we'd never know when those financial crises are going to happen because they don't give you any warning. It just happens. You know, it might be that you have a death of a partner. It could be someone leaving. It could be that you have, you know, you're diagnosed with something that means you can't work. So why do you think sort of long term, thinking long term is so important when it comes to sort of that independence piece? Speaker 2 So I, I often fantasise about having a crystal ball and being able to, to see into the future. Maybe that's like my over anxious mind, like wanting to know always what happens next. But unfortunately none of us know what's going to happen in the future. Like we absolutely can't predict it. But what we can do is put things in place that are going to give us a bit more resilience and a bit more choices when some of those, you know, some of the life events that you've mentioned if they should happen. At least you've got a bit of a buffer around you and I think like day-to-day that does it almost feels like a weight that I don't need to carry. Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. And sort of moving on from that, thinking about sort of breaking stereotypes, we'll see alongside all of what you've had going on in your personal life, you've built this, I'm going to say, incredible career in data and tech, which is definitely a space where women are still underrepresented. Be like financial services. So what sort of assumptions do people still make? Do you think about women in this particular field? Speaker 2 Yeah, again, like, you know, I think it's a lot better than it used to be when I think back to like my mum's generation or my grandma's generation. And then, you know, I'm, I'm really lucky where I am. I've got some absolutely powerhouse female leaders in in my world and in my area. But in previous roles, I, I have noticed a lot of assumptions about what leadership is supposed to look like. So for example, in previous roles, I've been told things like more authority, more edge, even once I was told to be more aggressive. And then, yeah, just not who I am, unfortunately, or fortunately, actually, fortunately, that's not who I am. You know, I'm I'm quite a warm person. I've got a lot of empathy. Like I did a leadership assessment once and my EQ skills were kind of off off the charts. I'm also a bit weird and a bit quirky and I'm quite creative. And I think those traits in the past have been sort of underestimated compared to more traditional, and I'm going to say more stereotypically male leadership styles. But I've seen personally, and I think also the data shows this, that that kind of form of more emotionally intelligent leadership, that high, high levels of, of EQ, it, it gives a, a working environment and it creates teams where there's more trust, there's more clarity and, and the performance is, is really strong as well. So it is fundamentally more effective. Speaker 1 I totally agree. I think I've I've seen a sea change in the all the years that I've been working and how that the more and it is said stereotyping, but more of the the sort of feminine attributes of leadership are really welcomed. And like you mentioned, I feel grateful that at least I work in an organisation that recognises that and it's not suggesting that all women should be the leaders. That might be quite a nice idea, but. Speaker 2 Let's start matriarchy. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, why not? Let's do it. And, and you're right, there are some really strong voices and some very empathetic women who are in senior positions within the company we both work for. But that's not the same everywhere. And particularly, even though financial services has been stereotypically male or dominated, should I say it's, that is definitely changing. And Lloyds is definitely at the forefront of that and trying to elevate women on on their careers, that's for sure. So what I'm interested now is what how you've used your experience to sort of influence how you show up at work and support others in their careers. Speaker 2 I think, you know, from a leadership and kind of line management perspective, psychological safety is so important and it's really powerful when people feel like they can speak openly and that they can, they can ask for support. And I've, I've definitely experienced that sense of psychological safety in teams before as well. So, you know, I try really hard to, to role model that and I try to lead in a way that creates trust and make space for people to be honest about what they're navigating. I think, you know, it's really important to know that we spend more time with our colleagues at work than we do with our own families sometimes. Speaker 1 That's scary, isn't it? Speaker 2 So it's like, and I know this isn't for everybody, like some people don't want to bring their whole selves to work, but creating a space where that's an option whenever they need it is really important to me. And then I think, you know, I want to make a point about sponsorship as well. So in terms of how I specifically support colleagues with sort of career and progression, I do really strongly believe in, in, in sponsorship. So kind of moving past mentorship and being the, the person, the advocate in the room representing my team and, and shouting their names in the spaces that they don't yet have access to. And this is so important. I think especially for for female colleagues, that sponsorship, I think it's really, really important. Speaker 1 Yeah, totally agree with you there. I'm definitely A1 for for sort of supporting sponsorship. I think it's a lot, I don't think enough people understand what it actually means and people just tend to automatically think of mentor. Mentors are great. But I think you need, you need that person to talk for you, talk to you, for you when you're not in the room and say so and so can do that. Did you know so and so's been doing some great work in this? But you know, they, they, it's men or women. Sorry, you know, have been recognised previously. It's just kind of bringing it to the table, isn't it? What sort of responsibility do you think you feel sort of to Share your story? Because also you talked about that in the groups that you're in early on. And that's obviously definitely I would have helped other people. But what, what's do you feel that you have to do it? Is it now kind of like driving stuff that you do? And it sounds to me like it's definitely part of your personality to help others. Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I do have a bit of a social care background. So before I was in design, I did actually work as a as a project worker and the whole family are in the social care profession. So it is, it is kind of a lot. I think. I think it's important to say though, like everyone has to make their own decision about what they're, they're comfortable to, to share. But for me, I've, I've decided to speak about this topic because, you know, that shame I was talking about earlier that kind of thrives in in the shadows. So I've, I've decided that I want to shine a big light on it. And I do feel a bit of a responsibility there if sharing like my perspective helps, even just like one woman feel a bit better informed or especially like making women feel more capable than they thought they were is really important to me. And that that does feel really worthwhile. So I'm going to, I'm going to keep doing it as long as people are still interested to listen. Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely, and I think it just kind of makes it gives you a sense of community when you just feel like you connect with someone. And if there's a, you know, we all do that on a on a story basis, you know, someone shares a an anecdote or something and suddenly just sort of clicks in your brain and you're like, God, I really get this person gets me and I get them and it's amazing those connections you can build. So I was going to go on to next is talking about something which I know you're passionate about and it's part of your daily job. It's something that I'm, you know, having interest in and we've had a colleague of yours, Susan, hope to talk about this who's very passionate about the pensions gender gap. So we think about zooming out from what you happened with your own story. It definitely connects to that much bigger picture, particularly about gender pensions gap and I think more importantly about women's financial independence. So how do you see that link with what's happened with you and what you do in your job day-to-day? Speaker 2 Yeah, they're, they're super connected. There's, there's no, there's no doubt about that. And I think you know, any, any situation that limits a woman's access to money or decision making or like long term planning, it will have a lasting impact on that woman's sort of future financial security. And that definitely includes pension. So I think what's important about the, the gender pension gap, it doesn't exist in isolation. Like women don't just arrive at retirement with 113,000 lbs than men. It's systemic. So it's connected to wider patterns and incremental systemic barriers that women sort of face throughout their life. So it's things around like the gender pay gap, unpaid care to look after family members or children, financial literacy from from a young age. So as a woman's going through her life, it's about how much access she's had to money, how confident she feels about money, how much control she feels like she has over money, like throughout her life, as she goes through her life. And the pension is is kind of the culmination of that. That's how that all comes together at the end. Speaker 1 I think, I think that's, I think that's very true and it's, you can't pinpoint it. She's just one thing. As you said, there's lots of different things, lots of influencing factors thinking about what we are, you know, the industry that we work in, financial services and actually in employers. Do you, what do you think we could do better to support women's independence from what you've you've kind of gathered? Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll, I'll start with financial services and, and what we're really focused on is making things easier to understand and easier to access to kind of put it in a nutshell. So, you know, there's some really interesting research out there that shows that women are less confident about investing, for example. And even in in research, we've heard comments like, I just don't feel like it's for me, But investing is for everyone. It absolutely is. And when it comes to, you know, people feeling like it's complicated and it's inaccessible, I think it's important to take a step back and try and meet people where they are. So the national reading age of the UK is 9:00 to 11:00. So think kind of Harry Potter and I strongly believe that you shouldn't need a university degree to understand your own money. So we're really focused on like, how do we make things much more accessible and how do we help sort of build confidence and literacy, especially for for women. I think as well, you know, from how we have been designing digital experiences, specifically around, you know, finance and financial services. I think mental load is a really important place to, to focus. Women disproportionately carry mental loads. It's something that that everyone carries to a certain degree. So by solving that mental load problem, you're, you're helping lots of different people. But you know, the stats show that women do disproportionately carry it. And I think when you're designing a solution or or a feature, you know, I'll often, I'll often say to myself or say to the team, you know, can't can a woman with a baby in one hand and a phone in the other navigate this experience? And if it's a no, then that's a sign that we maybe need to go back to the drawing board. And then finally, when you're designing financial experiences, I think it's, it's really important to recognise that everyone's experience isn't the same. And women's financial journeys specifically, you know, when you're talking about those systemic barriers and those life events, women's financial journeys are often shaped by life events and also by structural inequalities and sometimes traditional models that kind of perfect happy path that doesn't always account for that. So always make sure that you've got that in mind when when you're designing for, for digital financial services. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's that's a great point. I have this now. I have this vision of some woman and sort of like sitting somewhere with a baby on one hip and a phone on the other, and you know that. Speaker 2 They give me. Speaker 1 Yeah, they give those pictures, don't they? I think I've seen quite a lot of AI generated woman. You know, what does a successful woman like look like? And it's, you know, she's got children there. She's looking amazing. She's lifting her weight, she's taking doing her shopping, she's looking after the family. And it's like, oh enough. And that mental load is huge, I think. And I think also because we are so good at thinking about lots of different things at once, it kind of backfires on us really. And it's like, well, you said you could do all that. So, you know, why are you now moaning about it? And there's been quite a backlash, hasn't there, in the in the press and particularly on social media, but about some of these conversations that I've seen happening recently. And I think that makes me also think about how we deal with money in a family environment. And I remember myself when my dad was out of work for a period of time and my sister and I knew that we were very sort of youngish teenagers. We were aware of it, but didn't really understand the consequences of it. So I know with my two children, my two boys who are now in their early 20s, we talk about money. I mean, that's sometimes I think just stop talking about money. My eldest son has a, a trading app. You can probably guess which one it is. And he's coming out, oh, look at these shares. They've grown by X amount, whatever. And he's looking at buying his first property. And he, he just, he loves all that. He understands the financial market. And I think a lot of that is down to just just talking about it as a family. You know, what do you think about this or what you're going to spend your money on? Or have you thought about saving some of this or whatever? So how do you think that we should be having those conversations more openly in general? Cross generations as well I think is important. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think, I think you're you're spot on. And the word that you use was, you know, talking more openly about it. You know, I think if I think back to to my childhood, money wasn't something that we like particularly talked about a lot. And well, then a school sent in as well. Like I look back and I think, oh, if there were, you know, courses around how to apply for a mortgage and what interest rates mean, like I think that would have been a really kind of useful grounding and core financial literacy, which would have probably kind of supported me later in life. So a lot of the conversations do have to happen at home. I think I, for example, Ollie's still pretty young, but he does have his his first savings account. He's got a little blue card that he loves and he's picked out himself. And I'll do like a basic amount that he gets paid every week, so 5 LB every week. And he can do like extra chores and tasks on top of that to earn extra pocket money. So then it's sort of contingent on, well, you know, if you, if you do a bit more and you work a bit harder, then you'll, you'll get like rewarded rewarded for it. That does sometimes backfire us though, because like, he'll do chores and tasks around the house that he finds fun that don't actually, like, need done. Speaker 1 But don't help you. Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm like. Speaker 1 He's quite savvy. Speaker 2 It's like you've because we've got this mop that it's got a little spray on it and it and he has fun spraying it. So I'll be like, I don't think that the house needs me up to 1/3 time to stay always. Speaker 1 Well, one thing's for sure, his his future home will be sparkling clean, I think from what you said there. Speaker 2 It definitely will. Definitely will. Speaker 1 Just thinking kind of coming up to kind of closing up here, just someone who who might kind of listen to this and they're feeling that something resonated with them and, and perhaps feeling that kind of financial stuck situation or maybe just ensure of their options what they should do next. What's the first thing that you think they should do? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think back to what I was saying about, you know, lifting over the rocks and actually seeing what's under there and building a really clear picture of where, where you are and, and what you've got. Facts are, are really grounding. And I think once you know what you're dealing with, even though sometimes that can be like a bit uncomfortable at first, as soon as you know what you're dealing with, instantly things can feel less overwhelming because they go from being quite unknowable and mysterious to, well, this is what's in front of me. And then as I said, like, you know, don't try and tackle all at once. You've got to kind of sequence your steps and just kind of focus on putting 1 foot in front of the other right now. Try not to get too consumed by the future and all of the what ifs when you're starting to kind of rebuild security for yourself. Because if you do just keep, you know, falling through, putting 1 foot in front of the other, taking those steps, you will get there. That will come. Speaker 1 Yeah, just just deal with it, you know, one piece by you know, and one after another really says don't overwhelm yourself. I think is is a really good point. What about kind of thinking about if they're rebuilding things like their independence and confidence over time, what small steps can they can they take there? Speaker 2 Yeah, sometimes I think about building confidence, but like lifting weights and in the gym, like. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a good analogy. Speaker 2 Yeah, you keep practising, you keep building. The muscle grows over time, you know, as I said, like break the, the big picture into small actions focused on like the next step and the next step after that, rather than every single step in front of you because progress fundamentally builds that confidence. Like that's where it comes from. I also love to write things down because it's like you're externalising the mess that's in your head and you're kind of getting it out of physically getting out of your your body, you know, of writing down facts, reminders less. I love unless I am obsessed. Speaker 1 So do I. Speaker 2 Sometimes I will write a thing that I've already done on a list. Speaker 1 Me too. I don't think you're alone. I think there's a lot of people who do that. It's just that sense of satisfaction. I can tick that off. Even though I've done it, I've just took that tick. Speaker 2 I think as well, like, you know, if you're starting from a place where you're, where you're feeling, you know, under confident or you're not feeling particularly good about yourself, this is something, you know, I'll, I'll share that that I used to do and I still do sometimes now I've got really nice things that people have said about me in a wooden box. And whenever that internal saboteur, we all have one, it starts getting loud. What I'll do is I'll just get out-of-the-box and I'll, I'll, I'll sift through some of the facts of what people have said about me. Like that's how they feel about me and that I am good enough, I am powerful, I am a good mum, I am a good friend. So I think like when your confidence is low, that might not be specifically what, what you want to do, but, you know, find your tactic, your thing that you're going to use as something concrete to come back to and to kind of expel that internal saboteur. It can make a really big difference. Speaker 1 I absolutely loved the idea of having this book, even if it's, I mean, you could have it just in your head of what it is, but to actually write it down kind of just confirms that it's true. I had a lovely birthday card a couple of weeks ago from somebody and I didn't just took the to Sarah from whoever it was. They actually took the time to write something was talking about how a good friend I was. I almost felt a bit embarrassed by it and my and I sort of showed it to my husband. He said, oh, come on, you know that already. And I went actually, it's sometimes nice for someone to write it down and it honestly it just I, I rang her up straight away, which I didn't wouldn't normally do about a car, but it just really made me think, God, that's so nice for someone to sort of say that out loud to me. So I. Speaker 2 Totally get. Speaker 1 What you? Yeah, I totally get what you should. Speaker 2 Start your box. Speaker 1 I maybe that's what I need to do, start my own box. Yeah, exactly. So before we wrap up, I just want to ask you, what does independence mean for you today? Speaker 2 So for me, it means it means agency, it means being able to make decisions from a place of clarity rather than, you know, a place of panic. And it means, you know, building and having built a life that feels really safe and, and really stable and 100% my own. Speaker 1 Yeah, totally agree that love it and if you go back and give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be? Speaker 2 So I have often been told that I am too much in my life. So if I could go back to little Lily, I would say to her, you're not too much. You do not need to be reined in. And yeah, never, never dim your sparkle for anyone, because actually, it is your superpower. I. Speaker 1 Have the idea of not dimming your sparkle. It just visually in my head creates a lovely picture. So yeah, totally agree with that. So, Lily, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it's going to be it will definitely resonate with so many people listening. And I think if there's one thing to take away from today's episode, it's this financial independence isn't about earning more. It's about knowing your options and definitely having the freedom to choose what happens to you next. Thank you so much for listening to current talks. If this episode has sparked something for you, please do share it with someone in your network. These are the conversations that help create real change. And we'll be back soon with the next episode. And I just want to say a final thank you so much for the amazing Lillian McNally for appearing on the episode today. Thank you. Thank you very much to the. Speaker 2 Amazing, Sarah.