Helped, Heard and Hugged

Episode 9, Carrie Shales with Jessica Senet, helped, heard and hugged. So I was in Asia, traveling. When I got the phone call from my sister saying that, yeah, he suddenly passed away. It was a real surreal moment because I literally spoke into him about four hours previous and he was fine and everything was okay. And say goodbye that I was then going to speak to him the following day and then obviously, I passed away. Well hello and welcome back to Carrie Shales. It's my pleasure to be with you. I'm Catherine Grimes and joined with me here in the studio is the lovely Jess Senet. We are women together connecting with stories of faith to encourage and empower one another. And the lovely Jess is known to me through my local church. But more than that actually, I first met Jess eight years ago when my little girl was just under two. So Jess is coming up for 30 and she is a fabulous lady. She has lots of amazing stories to tell us. She's working in a lovely nursery at the moment and she's going to tell us more about that as we chat together. So welcome Jess. Hello. Lovely to have you with us. Thank you. Can we just kick off the show very simply by getting a sense of who you are? Your taste of the listeners. What is it that really makes you come alive Jess? So yeah, the main thing to come alive is just my passion within yeah, yeah, childcare. Just working with children watching them grow and having a develop. And something that also makes me come alive is just being around people. I love talking to people, getting to know them, just building those, yeah, just friendships and relationships with them. Yeah, another passion of mine is just being in the outdoors, adventure. Just exploring things. Recently become a national trust member. So yeah, so just yeah, my day's off with just weekends, picking a random place off a list and going there to explore it, which is nice just be outside enjoying nature. Amazing. And for those who don't know about the national trust then, can we just briefly explain what that is? Yeah, so national trust places are just open green spaces, acres and acres of land to just explore and also historic buildings as well. So lovely mix there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that does sound a good way to spend your days off and weekends. Excellent. Let's just dig straight into your story about you and God. How did you first encounter God for yourself? First time that I encountered him was, so I've been brought up within a church, yeah, most of my life. And I was at a Christian conference, a place called Deadling. So us as a a church we used to go there. My first encounter was while I was in youth and I was with their group of friends and it was just through worship that at the point of people throwing out the question of saying, are you ready to surround your life? Are you ready to know, yeah, just know him. And I felt led to put my hand up, I had prayer and within that I just had this overwhelming feeling of the Holy Spirit just as like a warmth. And yeah, it was such a special moment because I'd never felt anything before and a few of my friends had had that feeling and I was kind of like, I'm waiting. I'm wanting it. And I got that. Yeah, and within that worship time it was just me and God. It was just yeah, and that's what then grew my faith. So you'd grown up then in a Christian family, but that was your first personal encounter with God reaching out and saying there is something more here. I want to pursue. I'm very, very much so yeah. And I think a lot of my childhood just being around it and that's just what routine was in a way I felt like I kind of took it for granted a little bit because it was just that's what we did. That was that was what Sundays were and during the week with our family connect groups and things. But actually for me personally, I then knew that this was real and it was something that I wanted. Yes. And wanted to pursue. So yes, yes, yes. Which is so important, isn't it? Because our faith is our faith, you know, no one else can believe for us. It's a very personal thing and it is about that unique understanding and encounter with God, isn't it? So yeah, amazing. Oh, thank you for sharing that. So do you think then that your perspective of God as a child is distinct to your perspective of God now? I think it is based off of experiences that I've had as an adult and in bigger decisions or situations. So as a child, it was always an exciting thing and learning new stories and being part of that. But as soon as I had that first encounter and continued to have answered prayer or an answer prayer and just in that waiting and then I've grown up to be an adult, they're just yeah, bigger decisions. So it's how God is moving now or what He's instilled in me before has now been pulled through now and it's yeah, it's knowing that yeah, based off those encounters, I can then trust in Him and continue going forward. Yes, definitely. And trust builds trust, doesn't it? Each situation you see God coming through your trust builds again. So what sort of aid were you then when you had that encounter as a team? Yeah, I was about 12 or 13. Okay. That I had that first encounter and then based off of that, so it was a church of England church. So then I was confirmed at 14. But I'd grown up with all the children throughout the whole church. So we were, we know each other for basically our whole lives. So it was just, it was nicer than having the encouragement of friends within that as well to then all be doing it at a similar time and together. Yes. And obviously a teenage time is full of peer pressure and uncertainties and all sorts. So the fact that you had like-minded friends must have been an amazing asset to you in pursuing Jesus. But did you find that you struggled in your teens? Were there any points where you know your faith really conflicted with them? Yeah, your teen activities and what you wanted to do. Yeah, I've always felt like I am quite open about how I feel. And so I would push back slightly. And I mean generally growing up as a child of my teenage years, they weren't the easiest time, I suppose, just because I used to suffer from X-ma. Okay. And so my skin used to be really bad around stressful situations and things and probably the age of like 13 to 15 was a really hard time of like things like GCSEs, exams, all of those things. And so there was a lot that I yeah struggled with within but based on having those friends it was always, I suppose, accountability and encouragement within that as well. So they were, we kind of all had a set, what we were going to do, what was good and how to build each other up through that. Talking then about the X-ma briefly just to interject there, do you mean that sense of saying that as a young woman obviously you were in situations that were causing you to feel stressed so your skin would flare up, you would react and then presumably you'd feel more exposed from a physical appearance. Yes, yes. So self-esteem. Yeah, in a confidence level as well. Yeah, of course. It was something I was always conscious of just because yeah, over my face as well as kind of my body. So there was always times of not just struggling with people kind of pushing back but also just I just felt different. And I was different. Yeah. Did you feel that God met you in that? Did you feel it? Yeah. Yeah. I did. It was there's been a couple of times where, I think it's just the the peace within within it, of knowing that he is there as kind of I suppose frustrating as it is in that moment of being like it's not taken away. But actually he's there and it's also yeah there's been times where even just prayer for healing and things it's then cleared and it was there were moments where it just felt unbearable but knowing I did have yeah friends and family and also God there as well was was mean yeah and comfort. Except you just as you are as you know as women we can be so preoccupied with our appearance you know the world teaches us that it doesn't it from the word go but actually really pursuing that inner beauty you know and having you here now and seeing who you are in the church as well and seeing who you are in everyday life you exude such a radiance about you that you know you can see the Holy Spirit touch on you which makes you so beautiful and it's yeah so I just want to encourage you that he is clearly doing a beautiful thing in you in Zodan outside. So then let's go on then to unearth your specific carry shell stories of faith you know that's what we're all about finding the ways that God has revealed treasures to you in a place of uncertainty in a place of pain in unexpected places really obviously you love your work now you're working in the same nursery actually that I knew from back when my little girl was two years old and she was cared for by you and others but you're no longer a nursery assistant are you what what is your role now so I'm now nursery manager so I know yeah run the nursery so yeah I've been there nearly 10 years and starting off as an earthy assistant and now working my way up to the top it's had its challenges and struggles but I've always wanted to progress I've always wanted to achieve more and based off of my experience and just how very much God has led me into within shell care as well as then having the ability to grow within that has been great. So yeah, I've been nursery manager nearly two years. Wow. Congratulations. Nice. Mm. Yeah. So is child care something that you've always wanted to pursue? Have you really, have you always felt passionate about it? Is that what you've seen as your career trajectory? Yeah, it was more so based off of growing up within the church, as an example, was that I was always encouraged by the fact that children were always around me. So they just kind of followed me around and that from a lot of people, all I've ever heard from people that I've known has been like, "Oh, you're great with children, aren't you going down to their level?" You're exciting. Like, you know, how to communicate with them. And that was from age maybe six or seven. Okay. Okay. So yeah, performative time when people are influencing you with their words, presumably. Yeah, very much so. Yeah. And it was always, that was always kind of what I did, like children just followed me around. So it was just, it was like a magnet. And it was what I always, yeah, was told, even church camps and stuff, we would go on a lot of the time, I would just be left with the children because we would just go off places and they just, yeah, they listened, they responded. And it was just easy. It just, yeah. So it was easy. People were saying you've really got this gifting. Did you feel that instinctively yourself, though, because that's so important, isn't it? You know, people speak things over us and that's amazing. That can be a source of encouragement, a source of direction. And God can use that. But actually, you know, we need to also feel that in a sense of instinctive, yes, this is something I want to pursue. Is that how you felt? It was, yeah, based off of the encouragement and it was fun. Yeah, it was fun to just run around and just be free and just, yeah, for me to still be a child. Even now, which, yeah, it's fun and exciting. And it was so natural that I just continued with that up into the point of then, yeah, choosing my GCSEs at school. Okay. And very much kind of, I suppose, a God moment, as I call them, in that I needed a certain amount of GCSEs and certain kind of A-star to see. So, and I managed to get them at GCSE level. Well done, you. And so, yeah, and even a couple of years after I qualified, they changed what you needed for your GCSEs. So you needed maths as well. I didn't have maths at the time. That was something that I struggled with a lot. Yeah. And so even within that, I'm kind of like, oh, thank you, Lord, because you allowed me to continue. And then it was changed and then I'm where I am today, based off of, I suppose, not, yeah, needing certain things. So, so up until that point, I then knew what I wanted to do. There was a point there, wasn't there? Because I remember having an interesting conversation with you months back actually, where you mentioned the Navy. Yes. And can you tell us where the Navy kind of came into that journey for you in your career? Yeah, of course. So at the point of me having the Navy as an idea, I mean, initially started, it was one of those jobs of just like, that's so cool. That's like how exciting to be on a submarine and out of sea and kind of travel the world and do things. Yes. And that sense of adventure was very much me. And so I was, it's kind of always been in, I suppose, in my head slightly of just, if I ever stepped away from childcare, which I never thought I would do, that would be the one thing I'd go towards. So I suppose coming out of, I had a couple of traumatic kind of situations with kind of personal life and even work life with just a lot of change within work. And it got to the point where I wanted a, I guess out. Okay. I suppose I wanted to just step away from everything and start fresh. And so, yeah, I got to the point of applying. I got through the initial application. I did all of my exams and my physical tests. I passed all of that. And within the Navy, basically, the reason why I got stopped was because of my ex-ma. Okay. So it was due to over the course of my life, I've been in hospital, had oral steroids for it and the steroids is a drug. And so within their policy handbook, they've stated that because I've had, okay, you even just did some form of, yes. And so even though it was biomedical professional, when it was all safe, that's an immediate kind of dismissal. Really? So that disqualified you completely. And that disqualified me for the whole time now. There's a duration of your life. Oh, yeah. So with that, it was kind of like, oh, okay, what do I do now? So presumably then in that point where you encountering some struggles and works, some very difficult situations, you wanted a get out plan. That get out plan was denied to you. How did you feel then? You know, and how did faith interact with that place of uncertainty for you? Yeah, I spoke, I was, I was being like, oh, thank you Lord for getting me to this stage and passing this and doing that. And then yeah, it got to the day where I received an email from the Navy saying that, yeah, I was just disqualified and couldn't go further. So I remember the conversation I came home, I was with my mum and my sister and obviously I told them the news. I was in tears, completely heartbroken from just, because a lot of, yeah, a couple of the traumatic kind of situations for me anyway. Everything felt like it just been wiped under my feet and I just then I had nothing. Powerless. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember being like, Lord, you're going to have to do something here. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Please just help me like I surrender it all to you. And I've never been in that situation where I felt lost. Yeah, nothing was working. And that's where it very much started for me to be like, okay, God is here. He's got me. I'm okay. As much as, yeah, like on the outside, I was just like, this is awful. What am I supposed to do? And from that moment, based off my previous experiences, I've known him to be there. That he's an all-in-god, that he, he's by my side, regardless. But I suppose within that, it was very much just like, okay, you can have to give me something here, because I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And that's them where, well, the last three years have been just a massive turnaround with just what he's, yeah, what he has done and what he is doing now. Wow, that sounds exciting. Can you tell us more about that then? So, yeah. So at that point, with work, because I'd pretty much hand in my notice in at work and been like, I'm leaving, I'm going off doing other things, yeah, absolutely. And then based on that specific work situation, that kind of just got dismissed and cleared and the opportunity for me to become manager, I came up. And so my current boss now encouraged me back then, saying, you know, you've been at the nursery for so long, your skills set and how you are with just people, with parents, with children. Yes. And she was like, I want to encourage you into this role. And it wasn't particularly an easy situation to kind of step into. But based off of that encouragement, I was like, okay, like, and there was a part that was like, actually, I don't want to leave childcare. And it was as much as the Navy looked like such a great opportunity. And it was with just what they offered and what I could develop him within that. I was like, actually, childcare is my thing. It's what I've always known. And it's what I've always been encouraged into. And so I had the interview, passed the interview and then stepped into the role straight away. Amazing. And then nearly two years later, I'm still doing it. That's fantastic. I mean, you may have come across this old phrase. It does feel a bit cheesy, but actually in some respects, it's also quite profound. So that when we have disappointment with God, actually, we can change the D into an H. So it becomes his appointment. And I just think that's rather beautiful. And in this case, it sounds like that was utterly true for you, you know, in that place of disappointment with the Navy as a complete closed door. And of course, there's no space for any children in a submarine. I know that from experience, because my dad was in the Royal Navy. So there you go. The point is that actually, you know, you had that guidance and that sense of, but this is an open door, you know, and God was so gracious to you in that. So, yeah, that's amazing. So that was one season of your life where you began to wrestle with this disappointment. You saw God move. You've experienced subsequent seasons, haven't you, which have been equally painful on different levels? Last year, tragically, you lost your dad. Is that right in November? Yeah. Can you tell us a bit about that and your grief journey? Yeah, of course. It was very sudden. It was a real surreal moment, because I literally spoke into him about four hours previous. And he was fine. And everything was OK. Oh, good. And say goodbye that I was going to speak to him the following day and then obviously passed away. So that was a tough kind of 48 hours of trying to travel back from Asia, even getting a flight, trying to get back and then dealing with all of that. Yeah, all I can say is kind of it was a surreal moment and it hit quite hard. Obviously, the relationship I have with my dad was such a beautiful relationship. I, yeah, he was kind of my biggest encourager with just everything. And we were so alike, we had so many interests in common. And he would be my person to go to if I needed a question answered or just help with anything. He was just there, but he was a faithful man. He would pray regularly with me and for me. And I struggled. I struggled. with just understanding what grief was, how it hits you differently on different days, just doing things. And I suppose the situation that we had with him was that he didn't have a will. So there was obviously other processes and things that we had to do on top of that. And yeah, I suppose I never imagined having to plan a funeral for my dad. He was only 61. And it was, yeah, I suppose for me, I feel like I have a whole life ahead of me that he would have wanted to enjoy the part of it, which is then just part of the grief in just understanding that that can't happen and that's just processing. Yeah, absolutely. And that's just been the process. I really truly feel that without the work that God had or has done with me, me stepping into that, even with the friends that I have within the church and outside of the church, but with building up those friendships, if it wasn't for that, I don't know where I would be today as well. God has very much moved people into my life, allowing me to have conversations with people, prayer with people. And that's just been the constant, I suppose, yeah, comfort and encouragement that others have given me through him and me knowing that he's always with me, regardless. I mean, I've felt very angry within it and the life seems very unfair. Yes. But I know God to be good and loving and that's what has carried me through for him to mean the Psalms have been something that I've read through and there are certain verses within Psalms that I look at it and I'm like, yeah, life can be really awful sometimes and difficulties can be within that, but actually God gives us peace within that. That's it. And I quote from C. S. Lewis that for, yeah, there's just peace within that and God is that peace and that's what's carried me through. Yeah, and is carrying me through. Yes. Yes. And as you say, I mean, grief is ongoing isn't it? You know, I mean, I can really resonate with what you're saying about losing your dad because actually I myself lost my dad this year in January, slightly different circumstances. Of course, everyone's circumstances are he had some form of hypoxic brain injury eight years ago and it persisted and he was in a care home for the last six years plus. And initially when it happened eight years ago, I thought that we were going to lose him then. I thought that was saying goodbye to my dad when I saw him. He'd had a double cardiac arrest, but actually he went on to live another seven to eight years and then died suddenly this January. So a different form of grief and yet similar, you know, and I think the point is that it's so important isn't it for us to acknowledge that in the church we're not immune from tragedy. We're not immune from suffering, you know, just because we know God, it doesn't mean that we actually are protected from the realities of this earth, which has pain, which has struggle, which has suffering. But I think as you said, you know, the massive differences that God is with us in the midst of it all, you know, and we can be utterly real with him. It's really important that we are, you know, like you. I was very angry as well and continuing to process that loss, but knowing that God is there in the midst just makes all the difference, doesn't it? I mean, for those people who don't know him, I think goodness, how horrendously difficult that must be. And in actually thinking about, you know, the questions that we were going to discuss today as well, I was just praying and asking God, what is it that he really wants us to bring out? And there's some beautiful verses in John 16, verse 20. And it's when Jesus is actually speaking to the disciples about the coming gift of the Holy Spirit, and he's speaking to them just before he's going to be crucified, and obviously die and not be with them anymore. But he's talking about the fact that their grief is going to be turned to joy. So he says this, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, in a little while, you'll see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me, I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices, you will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy." And I think what I just want to say and ask whether this resonates with you as well, Jess, is that have you discovered that even in place of grief, you know, God gives us the capacity to flip it like a coin with two sides and actually experience joy? Is that something that's been true for you and what does that look like? Yeah, he has as much as I feel like I'm still obviously processing and in this season of grief and loss and just what that even looks like. You feel like some days you've kind of not gotten over it, but you just feel slightly better and then something else happens. But a prayer that I have said for many years is for God to give me real joy, is knowing those emotions, those feelings and actually what it is to be joyful. And this year especially getting into a new relationship, which has been an absolute blessing. And under those circumstances of me and Craig meeting, was very much, yeah, a God moment, as I call them. And just how we've developed that friendship into now a relationship has been a journey for both of us individually. But even with people like Craig and a few others within the church, they've given me the foundations of what a friendship is to them build on that. And that's been one of the biggest joys that God has allowed me, yeah, to have and enjoy. Yes. And it's been an absolute blessing having that. Yeah. That's really lovely, really lovely. Yeah. And I think it is so important, isn't it, to intentionally look for those beautiful things that God is doing in the midst of such a dark and painful and horrendous situation. There's no reason why your dad should have died at 61. There's no reason why my dad should have died at 70. It's too young. It feels way too young. It feels wrong. It feels unjust. And yet they have. And I think it's painful, isn't it? But even talking about the hope of heaven, you know, I mean, your dad knew Jesus, my dad knew Jesus. Do you feel that in losing someone who knows the Lord and you know is in heaven, you have a sense of hope, but also do you feel like you have a connection to heaven? Yeah, I do. I have the confidence that I'm going to see him again. And even with my nan, with Lucy, my nan as well recently, she was more open to the Lord near the end of her life. And having that, I hope that yeah, I will see them again. And that they are there in the most perfect place. And for whatever the reasons are for them not being on earth now, yes, that was within God's plan. That is what he laid out for them. And yeah, it's the confidence in knowing that it's all, yeah, it's his timing, it's his will. And yeah, I will see them again. Definitely. So how do you think then that we and listeners who know the Lord, who love the Lord, can choose to grieve with hope in the mix? What do you think that looks like for us? I think the beginning bit is to just be real with God as well. I felt like I really needed the permission to be angry at him or just be an absolute mess and be like, I don't know what my prayer looks like today, Lord, but you know, my heart, you know, my mind, please just feel me with what you, yeah, what I need right now because there were some days where I was like, I don't even know what I need. So being real was the biggest thing for me in being able to get to process it and to to then have the hope that it will get better and it can get better. Yes. And that there are, I've always seen it with, I suppose, a space for my dad can never be filled with who he was as a person. But actually other little things can come into it and be like, actually, dad would have liked that. Let's do this instead. And enjoy it in a way that I was like, I can't know this is yeah, this is what he would have liked or enjoyed. So kind of bringing him along. Yes. Yes. In that. Yes. Definitely. Into the present moment with you. In some way that you connect, don't you? Yes. To the memory and to the person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things is, I love the water, like rivers and the beach and things. So going for a walk along a beach or having that, even just there were a couple of evenings over the summer that I watched the sunset just on the beach. But with that, I felt very present. Yeah, with God as well as just with this is something that that, let me and dad enjoyed and liked. Yes. And so, yeah, I suppose, yeah, just bringing yeah, the grief along with you and feeling it as it is. I think you're right, isn't it? Because it does hit at any point, you know, we can't predict what triggers are going to come and you may just suddenly find yourself in absolute floods. And I think it's not being ashamed of that, is it as well, you know, just being willing to let the tears fall wherever they fall and explain to people with need. And you might be in the same moment, I'm just having a moment my dad died a year ago and it's got me again, you know, whatever it is that actually just being honest, you know, and I think that that really blesses other people as well, actually, and gives them permission to be real about whatever they're feeling, you know, it may not be grief, it might be something else, but actually, if we're real, they can be real too, you know, what words of counsel then and advice would you offer someone who has recently lost someone special to them? Is there other words that we can give that would encourage that would give them something tangible to hold on to? What do you think? I suppose just being able to speak to people and have those people with that you can be honest with, even if it is one or two people. Because I used to have a phrase I used to say to everybody when someone asked me if I was I'm fine, yeah, you know, works from busy or you know the week's been a bit long. I'm okay. How are you? Like that would literally be my thing. Yes. And I would never dive any deeper into that. But I suppose yeah, the biggest thing that I would advise is to go to those individuals and be like actually really struggling. Hmm. Can you just sit with me? Yes. And can you just, yeah, I got told it a while ago that there's potentially three things that people need. It's either helped, hurt or hugged in a way of how people need to feel, kind of heard and listened to. Absolutely. And that's something that is a big thing for me for others is that I want to be able to encourage people and just be there regardless of what that looks like. It could be, we sit there and don't talk, but just not feeling so alone in that is just what is needed. Just reaching out to individuals to just be really real. And to not be frightened or scared of doing that or even ashamed. Like it's everybody, you know, we're made to be, you know, God made us to have emotions, made us feel things and be within community and people. So yeah, reach out regardless of what that looks like. Hmm. Helped, hurt and hurt. Yeah, brilliant. I haven't come across that one before. Oh, I do like. Yeah. So people may need all three. Yeah, I was made to do, yeah, need just one, but everybody is different and it's knowing what is most loving to that person in that moment. And of course. As I've always felt encouraged by how I know someone, but also with God, if he's ever spoken through me for someone, if just what it's needed. Because I know that God has done that with others for me. Yes. Yes. They've known exactly what it's needed at that time without me even saying it sometimes. So yeah, and how let's finish off them by asking very simply, how has God been speaking to you recently? What's he put on your heart just recently? Just to, I suppose, be with people just going through hard struggles. I guess so. He's already using what you're learning. Yeah, I mean, very much so. And there's at least four or five people that I know in the last six months that have lost parents and my age as well as slightly older and there's been a lack of variety of reasons to why. But it's allowed me to also talk about my faith to those that don't believe. Amazing. Don't know what a privilege. God, absolutely. And yeah, it's allowed me to just be okay with where I'm at. And actually, if that's, you know, sometimes you never know the why of what happens and what it does. But if I can be an encouragement to others and even just openly pray for someone, then all parents are powerful. And yeah, just more so with where people are at with their struggles and just, yeah, walking with them in that. Well, a gift. And we have amazing to be able to come alongside people and give them the gift of empathy. It's so precious, isn't it? It's so powerful. And you know, that's what we're all about essentially on Carri Shales that, you know, it's about women together, hearing stories they can resonate with, things that they can say, do you know what? Yeah, I felt that or I've experienced that. And knowing that we can encourage and empower one another in our pursuit of Jesus to keep digging up those treasures that he's laying even in the darkest places and keep encouraging one another. So thank you so much, Jess, for joining us today and sharing some of your stories. It's amazing, very exciting to hear them. And just to see the way God's at work in your life through all these different circumstances. So would you join me just by finishing them by praying for one another and for our listeners, praying that they would receive a sense of guidance, you know, in their decision-making, praying more specifically into that sense of grief and loss, that, you know, if that's something that they've resonated with, that God would just really comfort. Yeah, be amazing. So Father God, thank you so much that you have been here with us in this conversation today. Father God, thank you that you know the hearts of every single listener. Thank you that you know their situations intimately. And Holy Spirit, I pray that you would pour fresh encouragement into them today. I pray God that if they are walking through a place of grief, a place of having lost someone who's been so precious in their life, that God your tangible presence would be their comfort. That you would show them the pockets of joy and the carry shells that you're placing even in that dark place of uncertainty, pain and heartbreak. God, I pray that you would bring them the comfort that only you can. And I pray this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carry Shells today with me, your host, Katherine Grimes and our beautiful guest. And a big thank you to all the women who make Carry Shells podcast possible for your generous support. You know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode. And this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carry Shells community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time. you