Helen Rosner on the state of restaurant criticism.

Alive from WSA, this is Expense Account. Today's guest is Helen Rossner, my favorite food writer and restaurant critic for the New Yorker. When I first started thinking about this podcast, the first person that I thought of to have his guest was Helen, because she always has so many opinions, they're always great. She's a amazing voice for radio, so I was so excited to have her today. We talked about a wide range of topics, including adult ADHD, baby pigs heads. We talked a lot about her infamous close friends stories, and we talked about me being really mean to my friends. And I've learned that when Helen speaks, that I sit my ass down in the sun. This is Expense Account, enjoy. Today we have Helen Rossner of the New Yorker. Thanks so much for coming. I'm so thrilled to be here. This is so exciting. This is my first couch podcast. Wow, I'm so excited for you to grow out with me. I'm fully prepared to grow out. Oh my God. So Helen, we're both from Chicago. We are both from Chicago. Do you think that Chicago is better food than New York? This is a tough question. I think that New York has this huge candy cap, which a few other cities in the world also have, but nobody has it quite like New York, which is that it is so unbelievably expensive to open an operator restaurant in New York City, and not that it's cheap to do it anywhere else in the world. New York, I think that there is so little room for failure, and it's hard for restaurants to have the ability to absorb the risk that is required, be exceptional, adventurous, super creative, or idiosyncratic or doing their own thing. And in Chicago, in a way that I think is similar to places like Philly, not that it's cheap to open a restaurant, but I think that there's room to be interesting. A room to be weird to try something new. The barrier to entry is a little bit lower. Yeah. There's more of a run-away for success. Yeah. I think you have more time to figure it out. So I think there are probably more exciting restaurants in Chicago than there are exciting restaurants in New York, but it all depends on what you're looking for. That was an overly diplomatic answer. No, no, no. I don't know. It's not a real question. And these questions are stupid and not actually answerable. Well, yes and no. I think if you're like, I love New York. I love New York. I love eating out in New York. New York restaurants are the center of my life outside of my child. It's your job. You're up for the New Yorker. Yeah. It's right there in the name. But I think that if you held me 10 miles above the earth and you were like, we're going to drop you into a city and this is the place you're going to eat for the next year. I wouldn't pick New York. You picked Tokyo. And maybe pick Tokyo and maybe pick someplace like Philly or Chicago, especially if it had to be in the United States. I think there's exciting things that happen in cities where there is room for people to be creative. I think that having a great restaurant culture is in many ways to be connected to having like a great artist culture, having a great sort of young people culture, music culture, and not a music culture in the sense of like we have a stadium, the Taylor Swift visits, but in the sense of like we nurture, we have like people of the space, the time, and the financial and physical resources to nurture creative endeavors and that extends to restaurant culture. What's a restaurant that you really like, just one in Chicago? Oh my God. The public in has always been so good, like so good and I haven't been in years, but Rob Levitt, who I think is a genius chef recently took over there. Oh yeah, I saw you posting about that. Yeah. And he for a long time had been running public and quality meats, which was their butcher shop attached, but I have been eating his food for. Yeah, decades he used to their restaurant way, way, way back when called motto, MADO. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about that. That was like whole animal, but really like crazy things with, and it was, that was like piece, like bacon, era, so doing a restaurant where everything was about using the entire day. A small millennials, we love bacon. I think he's a genius and I can't wait to get back to Chicago and see what he's doing at like good old public in. I remember I ate at St. John's for the first time and I was like, this is like a British public. Yeah. They're very connected, right? I mean, even the name of the public in, you know, it's not really a word that we use in American English too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the person who runs the pub. Yeah, you're something that like, I need your help with because I was getting a little, I was getting flamed on my Instagram this week a little bit because I posted a thing. They had that someone's posting on Twitter like top pizza styles, what's your favorite pizza style? Oh. And I put, I put all day, I put every, I, but I like engagement. We like engagement. I love to be made it. I put tavern in so many people were like, so many people were coming in my, my DMs like so mad at me. But would you say tavern, am I crazy? Tavern's not my favorite pizza, but I do think, well, look, I love it. I think it's a terrific pizza. I don't know. What's your favorite then of the six? It's tavern. So what was it? It was deep, Chicago style deep dish, tavern. Detroit. Detroit. Detroit. New York. Oh, man. I guess if those, yeah, I would say tavern. Yeah, you're right. But the pizza I want to eat the most often, the pizza I'd like to have the most often in my life. Yeah. Well, it is also the most, it's the most, because it's the lightest than it's crust. Yeah. I do, do you order Domino's pizza secretly? Oh, yes. I do. And the thing is crusty is amazing. It's the best pizza in the world. Wow. It's so good. It's the best. I love it. I love it. I love it. It has like this sort of fake butter in it. Oh, yeah. It's like a, it's like a loomal Nadi's thin crust. Exactly. I love it. I love it. I love that pizza. Well, now we've both been canceled. The siren. We like, the best pizza in the world is the Domino's thin crust. Yeah. It costs 9.99. You asked that. 7.99 if you have that coupon. promo code expense account. But speaking of changing subjects all the time, something that I wanted to talk to you is about adult ADD. Oh, my God. Wow. That was such an ADHD change of subjects. ADHD. I don't know. No, sorry. I didn't mean that. There's a question. I was just saying like an incredible non segway would blush. So that's the J. Lee experience. I love it. But you, when did you get diagnosed? Are we talking about this? Yeah, no, we can do it. Let's start. Okay, because I want to. I'll tell you my personal. I'm sorry. Yeah. I want to hear it. I've been taking five outs for like. Over 10 years. Yeah. I think it's been a while. And I actually. I don't know. Does it make you feel crazy? No. Not anymore. Did it make you feel crazy when you started? Not a couple days. I have my like little spiel that I give to my friends who are starting ADHD medication, which like, I don't know if there's a new one now that's non stimulant, I don't know anything about it. But like. Okay. So. Vibance. Yeah. Is basically like, Adderall wrapped in a cocoon, right? So like Adderall. It's time release. Yeah. So it's time release. It's like, it's like a slow on and a slow off. Yeah. As opposed to Adderall, which like hits you like a truck, and then 10 hours later, if you can. Yeah, that's right. I can't. I can't do it. I can't do anything. The way I heard about Vibance to ask my doctor if I should try it was for me, Kat Marnel blog post, the best place to get advice about prescription drugs. But I'd been taking Adderall and like, it worked with on and the offer was crazy. And I was like, wait, Kat Marnel has now informed me of this exciting new option. And my psychiatrist was like, how did you hear about Vibance? And I was like, I am too embarrassed to tell you. But you know, I have this like spiel that I tell my friends who are starting this treatment, which is that you're going to feel euphoric and fuzzy and alive. Like the tip of your nose is going to go numb. These are like, you should moisturize. You should drink water. Like, it's dehydrating. But your body, it's drugs. It is drugs. Yeah, it's drugs. I mean, it's the same like, you know, a core molecule as meth, but your body kind of adjusts to it after a while. I think that like finding your dose, there's the whole thing. I don't know. I think I joke a lot about having, you know, my raging uncontrolled ADHD. And it's true that I think there were things that I grew up thinking were deep personal failings. Like, that I was always losing things that I had. I really struggled to keep track of stuff. Like, I kept my calendar in my head instead of keeping a written calendar. I was like, oh, that's me. I used to like not go pee. This was the crazy thing. Like, not realize I had to pee for hours and hours and hours. Like not listening to your body is apparently a really big ADHD thing, especially among women and girls. And then I'd stand up after, you know, being locked in on whatever book I was reading or video game I was playing or work I was working on and be like, oh, my God, if I don't pee right now, I'm just going to pee my pants. And like, getting a diagnosis, it's not so much that it was the diagnosis, it was that it was a framework for understanding. So had you always, like, everyone been telling you that you might have now, like, so how did you decide to go about getting a diagnosis? I think it's the girl thing, right? I think that, like, I'm of a generation. And I think there are these micro-generations, too, and like, like, I'm older than you. Not my future. Not my future. But, like, by enough, I think we're like, when I was a kid, very few people were, like, the idea of, like, Adderall or ADD, as they call it, then, was pretty new. And it was, the model was the hyperactive boy, like, the little boy running around jumping off the walls. And it turns out that the way that this presents in women and girls is incredibly different in the way it presents in boys, for probably also of reasons, but a really big one, and one that resonates with me is social masking. We're like the expectations for behavior that is imposed upon girls is very different than what's imposed upon boys. So for girls, it's less like running around being like a freak out bouncing off the walls, and it's more about kind of being disorganized, having like difficulty shifting tasks, like all of these sort of much more like admin-related things as opposed to like your body is on fire. And when I was in, I don't know, like in my early 30s, I think like whenever that was 10 or 10 years ago, like people started writing more about it. Like I feel like it's so lame to be like, hi, self-diagnosed based on like reading magazine articles. That's what happened. I was like, wait, this sounds like me. Yeah. And you know, I went to, I already, you know, it was in therapy and have like a sort of mental health support team for all the other stuff. And I brought it up and they were like, yeah, go for screening. And I made an appointment. They were like, yep, absolutely. And this was important to me when I went to see the guy who became my psychiatrist. So I really, really love for my ADHD stuff. One of the first things I asked him was like, how often do you tell someone they don't have it? Because what I didn't want to do. It's like the, we're glasses going to have temperatures. It's like they're going to tell you to wear glasses. Right. Like I didn't want to like do this because it was fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, I tell a lot of people they don't have it and they made me feel better. Because I, I'm trying to become an adult. Trying to be more organized. I like do the calendar in my head thing. And I'm starting now that I'm starting to have more things on my calendar. It's starting to become untenable. Yeah. And I have the thing where I send, write an email and then I'm like, I write it all out. Then I never press send. Everyone's like, you're lying. It's like, I actually like just don't. Oh, my God. I write my column and then not share the Google Doc with my editor. Yeah. I should be like, why are you like, I'm like, no, no, I need to do something about this. And I don't know if it's such a weird thing to be like, I have adult ADD that I diagnosed myself online, but it's actually made, like you're one of the few people that I hear actually talking about, having an adult ADD diagnosis. I think that it's like, it's one of those things where like, it's very easy for it to sound like you just sort of want to crutch to be a fucking mess, you know? And I have no doubt that there are people out there in the world who are in fact genuinely just fucking masses who are like neurotypical, have no problems with like dopamine or any like, you know, they are just like, like surfing the serotonincy, but like, and are also a fucking mess. But I do think like being a fucking mess is almost never because you don't care. And I tend to, I think, be like a little bit more accommodating of people's flakiness and messiness because of my own flakiness and messiness. But on a certain level, like I write for a weekly publication, like I have to hit my deadline. If I don't hit it, I'm messing up. Like and I've missed it a couple of times and I like, it's the worst feeling in the world, you know? Like to not be living up to other people's expectations, to not be living up to my own expectations. My home, my life is like full of post-it notes with written checklists of things I have to do. Like on my computer, I have a post-it note that says, "Make sure to share the dock with Rachel," which is my editor, like, so that I don't do this for a sake of my main multiple times. And like I have even with these, like, sort of reinforcements, it doesn't always work. But I don't know. Thanks for letting me get my Theobahn. Hi. My one little Theobahn moment. So have you, are you taking the good drugs? No, I need to figure this out. I've been just hesitant because it just seems like a silly thing to be. I don't even like Adderall. I hate it. Every time I've taken it recreationally or to try to accomplish a task, it makes me feel crazy, but I would like to know options that are chill or maybe. Yeah. I mean, I'm, listen, I'm not a doctor, right? But like for me, also one of the clues was that when I tried to take Adderall recreationally, it didn't really feel like exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It felt different, but it wasn't, I wasn't like sitting down and writing my papers the way that my friends were. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was, it, it was normalizing. Yeah. And that was a pretty big clue. Yeah, yeah. That's a pretty low dose, right? Like, I don't, I have, I know lots of people who are like mega doses and I don't know, I take a pretty low dose because it's what works for me also because I found that if I take a higher dose, I get really angry. And I don't want to be that person. Yeah, I get, I don't know, I get, I get all of my stuff done and I feel more normal, but also I'm like, I'm so relaxed normally and I like to feel where I just relaxed, but, um, on that note, we'll go back. I was just kind of thinking like how, like somebody watching this is going to somehow connect this to like my next restaurant review. Like, oh, I think that, I don't know, I think it offers some insight into like, like your whole, like your whole thing is like a person and as a writer and like, that's my whole thing. Just that you have a lot of thoughts. This is, this is actually, this is a good segue, but I wanted to talk to you about it. It's like, I don't know when I was conceptualizing the podcast, you were the one of the first people that I wanted to have just because you have so many thoughts. And you always, I think that you, like, need an outlet sometimes. And sometimes it's like social media or like you're writing this, it's so dense, like all of your reviews are very like dense with like so many. I'm going to take that as a compliment. No, it's a compliment. Like, I feel like I would like for that to be my strength too. But yeah, there's, you've just, like, have a million things to say, a million. That's the way a critic should be, I think. I mean, I guess I don't know any other way to be, which sounds sort of pretentious, but like, I think it's only I think fairly recently that I have started thinking of myself as a critic. Yeah. Like, not to go into the whole, you think of yourself as a writer? Well, that's also kind of new. Like, I, you know, for my entire career before I joined the New Yorker, I was an editor and I would write a little bit, but I mostly was in charge of like editing other writers, like deep and manuscript kind of editor. And, and it took me a while, I think, to be comfortable with the idea that I was a writer now. It felt a little bit like stolen valor. It felt a little bit like, um, I don't know. I also, I think I'm uncomfortable in ways that like, we could go into, but we don't have to with the concept of writer. I think that like, it's too broad and too general. I'm like more interested in like, what kind of writer are you? So this like brings us to this idea of critic, which is like, I am definitely a critic. Like, for the last two years, I've been a restaurant critic. You're like the critic. I'm, I'm a restaurant critic. And I think, prior to that, the best way to identify the type of writing I was doing for the New Yorker was cultural critic. Yeah. Um, which is my, I think my favorite thing in the world. But, um, because you, I mean, you are like, have thoughts about all different corners of culture and not just food, but I mean, you're great at writing about food also. Yeah. Sorry. Um, I think I didn't set out to be a critic. Yeah. And set out to be a, but I, do people set out to be critics, you think? I think some people do. It's just a strange thing to set out to be. I think that like, I've just always been a person of a lot of opinions or a kid, like an annoying kid of a lot of opinions. That's what I'm saying. But like, like, I'm talky. I'm thinking I'm always looking. I'm always processing sometimes in ways that are incredibly irritating even to me. And I think that there are ways that could have been channeled in my life. And I feel incredibly lucky that I ended up sort of in a time, in a place, in an environment where I was able to channel that and to just like getting to have my opinions in public. Yeah. Though I also find it very terrifying and paralyzing to do that. I think that like, there is a fundamental narcissism that's required to be a successful critic. Yeah. Yeah. You have to believe your opinions are worth saying. And not just that they're worth saying, but that they're worth saying with the, like, tremendous amplification of the platform. Yeah. Um, for you, it's, it's a huge platform. It's a big platform. But I think, um, I try not to think about it. But about your writing, I feel like I don't always agree with your opinions on the restaurants. But I know where they're coming from because you're the voice that's saying them. Like you, like I always understand about an opinion. Yeah. Yeah. It's just your opinion. Well, yes and no, right? Like, I think that I, I think it's possible for an opinion to be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think that. Yeah. But I also think that almost universally, like, especially when we're talking about a cultural product, right? The restaurant, a play, a book, whatever. Um, not morality or something. Yeah. But like, I think that, like, you can have two just different and inconsistent opinions that are both correct. Yeah. But this is, I think that the thing that is important about criticism that, like, gets me very head up in the, like, kind of overly flattened, like how do you criticize Taylor Swift kind of version of, like, being mad at critics, which is that responsibly done criticism, regardless of the venue, regardless of the subject, regardless of the platform, responsibly done criticism is rooted in fact, an analysis and research and reporting. Like, it's not just, I think, this sounds good, right? Like, it's not a purely aesthetic judgment. It's also kind of a judgment in terms of art, right? Like, where, like, art is about, like, meaning and context and representation. It's not just, like, does it feel good or sound good or make me feel good? But you don't feel like you are doing art in a sense that you have a responsibility is like, like, there's no entertainment value that you're thinking of. Oh, totally. There is. I mean, I like, I need to entertain myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I like, I mean, I like word play and I like weird sentences. And I like, you know, I like being referential and was it the 20 commas? I had a recent review where there was one sentence that had 47 words and nine commas, and a colon and an M- which I love like I love so much. That's what I'm saying it's so like dance. Also in that review, I did a really fun portmonto, which was it was about a front restaurant and I was talking about how there's just this glut of front restaurants in New York right now. And I created the word franco cacophony. Oh, I'm going to steal it. I'm going to use it. There's something like that, but it was very fun. I was like, you know, that's the fun stuff. I think that, um, kind of I feel like I'm being so pretentious. Like, no, this is what this is for. The thing I love, right? There's, I like tell us what do you love. I don't know, I just love words and like I can tell when you read your pieces that you truly love words. You love food. You love a lot of, you're a very passionate person. And I think that a lot of people, they do have very passionate people. And I love how we're fitting this into this diagnostic framework. This is great. This is very good. I'm, I'm chair, uh, uh, just a tie-in designer couch shop. It's a crazy couch. Yeah, okay. The expense account podcast is built in partnership with Substack. I've been spending a lot more time on the Substack app. It's become my favorite escape to scroll productively. And it's also where I've felt my business. Substack is where I read Lincoln Bio by Rachel Carton to learn what brands are actually doing right on social media. And where writers like Jalille Johnson are reinventing real-time fashion reporting. A few weeks ago, I went live with Derek Thompson. And it felt like thousands of us were hanging out and talking about the state of parties. Everything for Feed Me lives there too. My daily newsletter chats about New York City, live videos with pop stars like Audrey Hobart. And of course, there's always debates in the comment section. In fact, while I'm here reading this ad to all of you, my readers are talking to each other about where guys on Wall Street have been taking their lunch meetings. Go to Substack.com/emily to get a free month of Feed Me in the Substack app. Anytime is a good time to drink a glass of silver oak, whether it's after a long day, after a long night, after recording a podcast, silver oak, the official wine of Expense Account. Do your friends find you annoying? And when you go out to eat with them, well, I wrote a review of my friend's birthday dinner one time and she she didn't talk to me for a second. That's fascinating. I like to do that kind of thing. I'm always thinking about when on Sex and City, like, her friends reading, are they reading, like, Carrie's writing about Aiden, is he just doesn't read her, like, how does she write without thinking that her friends are going to write about it? I think that I read it. I'm so happy that you brought this up because I think about this literally all the time. Yeah. Like, do you remember the blog era? Yeah, of course. The personal blog era of like the early 2000s? No, we have Substacks for that. Yeah, but the people write Substacks from a position of like being journalists, right? Like aspiring to be journalists. People wrote blogs like they were diaries. They were talking about going to dinner with people, seeing people, am I falling in love with so-and-so? Like, there's the whole, like, girl blog phenomenon of giving people names, like, in this very Carrie Bradshaw. Yeah, I love that. Probably a big or whatever, right? Yeah, it's, like, weird. I think I'm friendly with a few people who've written memoirs. Yeah. And I think it's great. And I also, like, you could not pay me enough money to write a memoir. I don't want people who I. Like, I don't want to write about people and then have to see them again. Like, I feel very lucky that the kind of writing that I have been asked to do does not require me to, like, let anyone deduce my opinions of them. But don't you feel like sometimes the meal is the experience is the meal, and the meal is the company, and then that's the whole thing, right? This is one of the little jealous of you, actually. Like, I love your writing, and I love the way that you write it. I think, you know, I probably, you know what, if I wanted to shift my column, I bet, I bet my editor would do that. But you're a real critic. You're telling the news. I think that. I don't think that the people who are reading my column want to read about me. I think they want to read about the place that I am talking about. Yeah. And what of me they want in it is, like, my lens, more than my life and my experience. And I really love the, like, I'm writing about my actual personal life version of criticism, right? Like, whether it's a book review or a theater review, or, like, you reviewing your own friends' birthday party. So fucking good. God, I want to steal that. That's brilliant. Do you have anyone reading your wedding? Are we allowed to talk to you? Can I come to your wedding and review your wedding? Would you like to do that? If you pay for my plane ticket, I will come review your wedding. Well, we're doing one in the city. But the Australian one is actually. That'll be a fun review. Travel piece. But what was I going to say? Oh, because I, this relates to us, we have dinner. Can we talk about it? Yeah, sure. We don't have to name the person. No, no, no. So Jay, you come with me on a couple of my review dinners. Yeah. You have not returned the favor. Where do you want to go? Where are you reviewing? We'll figure it out off. I invited you somewhere. We'll figure it out. It's true, you're right. You're very busy. I guess so. You're more busy than me. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, also, yeah, I also have been bad about writing. But I'm a podcaster now. That's true, you've got a lot going on. So you've come with me on a few different review dinners and lunches. You're like, you're on my list now. You're like at my study rotation of dining companions. We went to a new restaurant. Yeah, Bartolo. I thought it was a terrific restaurant. Because I think the story is a funny thing that I'm like, how can you not write about that? Yeah, and I did, I did write about it. Though I didn't. Did you write about it? I didn't read it. Yeah, it was the final paragraph. What? Yeah, you didn't get there? I missed it. When did you post this review? Oh, it came out like three weeks ago. Oh, yeah. Okay, but anyhow, so we were eating at Bartolo. So Bartolo is his new restaurant in the West Village that's inspired by the food of Madrid. And you came with me for a dinner and. Oh, yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no, no, no, no, because I got it. I got to do the punchline. It's okay. So we ordered Helen had already been there two times. Yeah. And she wanted to try some things that she hadn't had. And one of the big things is this vermine entree for the big dish, the showstopper that we were getting that evening with this, um, uh, uh, suckling pig's head. Or whatever it is, it's considered suckling. Well, so it's a suckling pig. And what we, the menu. Whenever the menu says you can get a whole suckling pig market price and you have to order it two weeks ahead. But I saw that the table next to us had what looked like a piece. Yeah, just a go. A piece of suckling pig. So we asked the server. And she said, "Oh, yeah. No, like on nights that people haven't ordered the whole suckling pig ahead of time, you can get a portion of it, just like the shoulder or the leg. And you and I were like, "Ah, which part should we get?" And then she goes, "Or, if you want, you could get the head." And like. Yeah, it seems like, yeah, we were. She was challenging us a little bit. Right. And I think like, and so both, we were like, "Yeah, we're absolutely getting the head." And I think, um, I knew a little bit in my heart that this was a bad choice for me personally. But I, like, what is the word or phrase that I'm looking for for the, like, kind of like, ordain-ish, like, 2013-ish, like, "Oh, the weirder and more off-cut thing." You're going to have to coin a word for that because that's a thing. It's such a thing, right? Yeah, it's like a certain type of travel bro, like, uh, like, the experience is like the. Like, I, like, it's really to eat something. Like a little unsettling. Or, like, the off-cuts and the O-Full and all of these things, and like. Yeah, like authenticity, like, exotic. Yeah, and the sort of like, "Oh, like, the most delicious part of the pig is the part is, like, the asshole." Or whatever, right? And like, so we were like, "Yeah, we're going to get the head of the suckling pig." And I've eaten pig head for actually to, like, bring it full circle. The first time I think I ever had knowingly ate the head of a pig, or pieces of the head of a pig was, um, at, um, Rob Loveitt's restaurant motto in Chicago, a million years ago. Used to make this incredible head cheese, and it was really delicious, and gelatinous. That's also, I feel like gelatinousness, tinfish is a little connected to this sort of, like, I. Like, it's like the food being really late, it's the whole thing. So they brought over this casuela with the head of the suckling pig. And a suckling pig is called that because it is still breastfeeding. Like, it's called that because it's still drinking up the sauce. To what size is it suckling? I don't know, like, I don't know, 12-15 pounds. Yeah, yeah, it was bigger than I thought, the suckling pig. Well, so it was the head in this bowl, and they cut the head in half down the middle. So it was, it looked like two heads. It was, like, very Damian Hurst athletic. It looked like my daughter. I've seen your daughter. I don't really see the result. I get it, I get it, I get it. But I was suddenly, like, I mean, and I wrote about this in my review where I was just, like, suddenly just felt so confronted by the fundamental hypocrisy of being a carnivore, which is something I think about pretty often. But, like, I still eat meat, like, you know, whatever, but, like, it's really hard to see the face. And it's really hard to see the face of, like, a mammal and a baby. And it had, like, its eyes were closed. It had little, like, its teeth. It was smiling in its death. It was pretty, it was adorable, a little bit. It was beautiful, and it was also, like, kind of horrifying. And you flip over the, you know, serve to us, like, skin up. And you flip it over, and it's just the inside, and it just kind of looks like a patlin' meat again. And it was, I think I had maybe one bite. You had a little more than me. I mean, I. I was getting the pork taint thing, and I thought it was bad, but I had been just having this problem in my life that's, um, pork taste weird sometimes. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know if it necessarily bothered me that much, the, I don't, I wasn't, you know, I have a cat, so it doesn't really look like my cat. No, it wasn't that it like literally looked like my daughter, but I was just, I get it. There's something I think about. I think that so many animals look like my cat that don't look like my cat. Yeah, and my, it's really funny because my, I have a friend, the same friend who's birthday, I reviewed, she, um, she's, oh, she has a dog and she's always saying everything looks like her dog, and I'm like, that doesn't look like your dog. It doesn't look anything like your dog, but this, this pig looks exactly like her dog. Oh, did I? And I sent her a picture. Oh, my God. I was mad at her and I sent her a picture and I said, I was so mad at you that I ate your dog. I love having you already, your friend. Don't, yes, it's true. No, and I, the, the server noticed we weren't eating the pig, and like, I, I wasn't going to force myself to eat it or pretend, and they took it away. They were so nice about it. And I apologize. I mean, I think if I'm remembering correctly, I think I was like, I'm sorry for being a huge pussy. Yeah. And then I felt really bad about saying the word pussy. Can we say that word as a woman, can I ask if we can allow to say that word? A woman I don't want. And no, and that's you. I've never asked anyone. Just like, how do you describe to be somewhat a coward, I guess? I think you could, you know, you just do a was, like, a single concept. But I did in fact say I'm sorry for being a huge pussy at a loud volume in a very nice restaurant. And she was, and then I was like, doubly mortified for having done that. And then also not being able to eat the like food that I should be ballsy enough to, like, it's all the judgements. But like, and they were so nice about it. Like, the manager came over. She gave us her card. Did she give you her card, too? She was like, come back anytime, because it's really hard to get a table there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and this, I think this was really, I appreciate it this. They charged us for it, even though we barely touched it, which is cursed. And they knew who you were. They probably. They definitely, because they, they DMed me. I mean, told me that they are, they're like, oh, I heard you were a workload with them. Okay. In that case, yeah. But, you know, they, but I'm glad that they charged us for it. Yeah, yeah. Because that's, that's what they should have done. Like, we, they didn't mess up. We messed up or I messed up. I, I ordered beyond my capacity. Also, you don't have to eat things you don't like. I know it's wasteful, but it's your, if it's your job to eat, like if you're eating things you don't like, then you're just going to kill yourself. Yeah, that's true. I think that, um, you know, the question of waste is kind of, I struggle with it all the time, but, uh, the, I think that food has functions beyond being eaten. Yeah, um, you know, like, you buy flowers and they die on your counter and you throw them away. Is that waste? Like, I think there's a strong argument to be made for the fact that it is. Yeah. But I also think that it did serve a function. I mean, like a little garnish on your cocktail. Or like the aesthetic function that something serves. I used to work in food magazines and, um, we do photoshoots all the time in the test kitchen. And sometimes, you know, cookbook authors would hire, would like rent our test kitchen to do their photoshoots and things like that. And, um, the amount of raw material that goes into making food for a photo shoot is pretty extraordinary. Like, you're testing 100 recipes for a cookbook. You're doing like 60, 70 recipes for the Thanksgiving issue of a magazine. You're making all these turkeys, whatever. And inevitably, there would be people leaving comments when we post, like, behind the scene stuff. And you see this all the time. I think it whenever a cookbook author posts something on, like, Instagram or TikTok or anything, like a behind the scenes of the shoot, there are so many people in the comments who are like, I hope all of that got eaten. And comments. And I think there's something really interesting behind that. Because the function of that food, of that dish that was being made for that photograph, was not to be. It's food. It's, it's purpose is to be photographed. Yeah, it might as well be a sculpture. Right. And if it gets eaten, that's a nice bonus. But I think that creating something that is supposed to be photographed and then successfully photograph it. Like, if you had to make it 10 times, like, that's wasteful, right? But like, it's function in that context is not to be consumed. It's function is to be seen. And so when I think about, like, when I go to restaurants and I order huge amounts of food sometimes, like, I'll be with one other person, like, you're on the leader table and I'll get, like, three or four entrees and every appetizer. And it's because it's important for me to do it for everybody. Right. So it's like, a lot goes on eat and then I try to take the leftovers when I can. But like, the food is not going to waste. The physical sometimes things end up in the garbage and I do feel bad about that. But like, I think that in theory, it is helping inform people at a scale that is only required. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? There's like a, there's a, there's a, I hope they ate the pig's head. I hope they did. I hope they did. I used to work the restaurant and loved to just, like, I'm like, oh, they sent back something. They didn't really touch it, like, I think about this sometimes when I have, like, shrimp or small, like, when it's an entire animal, it's a single, like, size animal. Well, it's like, if you have something like, like a gumbo or like a shrimp fried rice or something that has a lot of little shrimp in it, if you don't eat the whole thing, there's like a whole entire animal that lived and died and then went straight into the trash. Like, one, one, I always feel like I got, I mean, I would never leave a shrimp on a plate anyhow. Yeah, I mean, that's one food that I think that I would never really waste. Did you know this is, this like, haunts me. Yeah. I learned recently that you can develop a shellfish allergy by eating too much shellfish. Well, that happened to my girlfriend and it's ruining my life, my, my, my, my, my, by the time I started, yeah, yeah, she's got a late in life shellfish allergy. I don't know if it was from eating too much, but she developed it. If you eat a lot, it, like, she used to eat it a lot. It can, it can trigger like your body. It's like, don't tell me that. I'm going to get it now. If I get a shellfish allergy, I'm blaming you. Yeah, this is like my, it's like the Babaduk. It's like, yeah, it's the scariest fucking thing in my life. Because I love shellfish. Oh, that happened too much. And now I'm just like, is this shrimp my life? I'm going to Switzerland. We're going to the clinics. Yeah, it's like, all my blood replaced with new blood. I met the euthanasia. Oh, I'm just going straight in the pod. I'm going to spend at least three years on experimental treatment before it, before them. I'm going to get my blood bag, my, my, my son, who's my blood bag. It's just get all this blood. That was a nightmare. I guess we have to talk about this. We were talking about social media a little bit. Do you feel like you're addicted to social media? Partly. Like, you're a poster. I love that you love to post. Like, you get in fights everywhere in the comments. I love that. Well, I know as much as I used to. I love, I wish that I could more. I love, it's one of my favorite things. I used to get in such, like, in the Golden Age of Twitter. Oh. Oh, my God. I, I was like a fucking brawler. Yeah, I think you're, you're, you're formidable. You're like a champ. I mean, I think I'm a classic poster. Yeah, I know you are. In a sense of stiying, I feel like. Yeah, and I think, you know, like, I, I shouldn't admit this. Like, I, I was on some, like, really embarrassing forums in my younger days. Like, where, like, you are forged in fire. Like, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, and, um, yeah. No, I used to like, and I'm from Chicago. And I'm from Chicago. No, I used to like get in fights on the internet. And I don't mean in like the distant past. It was like 2017. Like, I would get, like, I would argue with like, rost out that from the New York Times, but I think it's a total idiot. Like, and it was, I've had to, I think, chill out on that as my profile has risen a little bit. And as the like, publications that I am affiliated with have kind of risen in stature too, not that anywhere I've worked is not spectacular. But like, um, you know, I, I remember five or six years ago, I was posting angrily about something related to, I don't know, feminism or anti-capitalism or something. And all of a sudden, there was like an article on the daily mail that was like, New Yorker writer says, dot it, dot it up. And it was a tweet. And it was a tweet. And it was like, and I stood behind it. But like, you know, it's the kind of thing where it's like, oh, all of a sudden, I am in fact, like, connected to some, to an institution that both lends everything I say a degree of like, gravitas and importance that I might not necessarily mean as like, a random person farting on my couch, writing into my phone. And also, like, ends up reflecting on to, you know, my employer and these institutions that I value. And that I like am appreciative of being part of. So to your point. Where was it that got you in trouble, do you remember? I, it's happened so many times. Yeah, yeah. Like, I've never gotten in trouble with New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just, I mean, like, something that people. Oh, God. I mean, you know, like, there was. It's almost always a feminism thing, right? Like, oh, you know, I think actually recently, not too long ago, in the last year or two, I was. So you're right most of the time. I think I'm right all the time. I've, in the last year or two, I talk a lot about Palestine. And the things that I posted about that have been picked up in a lot of places, like, the New York Post, the Daily Mail. Really? Like, the New York Post called me a pro-Palestinian activist, which, like, I'm flattered by that. That's great. Yeah, it was like, it was like, what time? Five or six years ago, Ben Shapiro, at the Daily Caller, like, wrote an article about me and called me a feminist. She writes for the New Yorker. That little guy? Yeah, well, maybe it was, like, one of his people. But, like, it was, like, Helen Rosner, a feminist. And I was like, that is a nice thing. I wasn't on staff then. I was just a contributing writer. And I was like, like, the pinnacle of my life. It's for someone to accurately call me a feminist. Thank you. Wow. So, you know. That's so cool. Yeah. So, yeah. - My goal is that if people are gonna get it mad at me, I want them to get mad at me for things that I'm proud of. - I mean, you've had some big, what's your biggest thing? I mean, the sandwich thing is your biggest internet moment? - No, oh, no, you don't know about the hairdryer chicken. - Oh, what was this again? I remember this, what was this? - I have a few of these moments. - Yeah, what was this? - When you invented the hairdryer chicken? - Well, no, I, Martella Hassan, and Alton Brown, and a lot of people in your hairdryer chicken. But I, on a snowy day, before the pandemic happened, whenever, in like a couple-- - I did this, I did this 'cause of you. - Yeah, it was me. So I posted a tweet that was like, "Hey, I use my Dyson hairdryer to dry my chicken before roasting it to get super crispy skin." Which works. - It works. - It is such a good technique, it is fucking correct. And it blew up, and it was not just like it blew up for a day, and I was the being character for a day, it was like a full six week new cycle. Like, it was on CNN. - I did that, and my girlfriend did that. - And I wasn't like, cooking it, and then it became this meta new cycle, and I ended up giving a really fun talk about this at this conference called ExoXo, where people sort of misunderstood what was happening, and it was a really fantastic example of context collapse and people's kind of only reading the headlines. - Oh, 'cause they were like, oh, - Like, women in New York are using Dyson hairdryers to try to cook in there. - Right, and I was like, no, no, you don't cook the chicken with the hairdryer. You put it on cold shot, and it's the same effect as drawing something in front of a box fan, or like when you're making pecking duck, you inflate the skin, and like-- - It makes a crispier skin. - It makes a crispier skin. It's all about, like, you want to dry out the skin as much as possible if you want the skin to be really, really crispy, 'cause it's all about kind of stabilizing the proteins in the right position, and having as much, like, almost in the verge of desiccation, like as much dehydration as possible. - Yeah. - But if you know how to cook, saying use the cool shot function on a hairdryer, to dry, like, the damp little armpits of your chicken, makes instant and perfect sense. And if you don't really know how to cook, you're like, who is this psychopath? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, did you say Dyson specifically? - I did say Dyson specifically. They reached out to me, and they were like, thank you for this incredible press, can you send you a ton of stuff? - Did you get it? - And I was like, no, I cannot effectively accept that. - You can be a little ethical for an air wrap. Come on. - Which? - I wish. - But so all of your stuff is about air. But that's true. So yeah, that's the other thing that-- - The other thing is the sand. - Last year that I went viral for, was saying that air was-- - That was only last year? - Yeah. - Feels like a millennia ago. Feels like a-- - It was saying that air is secretly the most important component of a sandwich. Not that like, you should eat an air sandwich, but that the manipulation, like the inclusion or exclusion of air in a sandwich is the most overlooked and important aspect. - The negative space. - Yeah. - Yeah, bread. - Yeah, which again, I think if you are a person who takes sandwich making seriously, you're instantly like, yeah, that makes sense. - What's your favorite sandwich? - Like a really, really good Italian hoagie or sub. - I, we're doing like a little party for the wedding before just like a casual thing before the wedding, but we're getting, I love the vegetalian. - The vegetalian is my single favorite sandwich. - It's the best sandwich. - It's a perfect sandwich. I usually get it without the mozzarella. - Without the mozzarella. - Yeah, I find that to be like, this is one of my sandwich pet peeves. It's like, I don't really love hunks or slabs of mozzarella on a sandwich, I think that in, like-- - Doesn't add so much. - It doesn't add very much. I think like a very thin bit or like, but it's a little too, but that's, cord street grocers is a spectacular sandwich shop. And the vegetalian, I think the thing that they've hit on with that sandwich, that makes it so great. So it's an Italian salad, but it has no meat on it. Instead of meat, it has, is it sweet potato or butternut squash? - It's an orange root vegetable squash, I think. - And what they've hit on, which I think is completely correct, is that the primary flavor experience of an Italian sub is the fusion of the pickly bits, the oily fatty bits, and then the smooth texture of the meat. And so they use like a, it's like an olive rel, it's like half way between olive relish and the tartar, like the super thin sliced onions, the like salt and vinegar and the lettuce, like they use a ruglo, which I wish was shredded iceberg. I would slightly prefer that, but like they nail it. And this is part of, I think, did you go to eat cabalini? - Oh yeah, I did. - Did you like it? - I thought it was good. I felt that it was a little expensive. - So there's this salad there that everyone was talking about, the Nerveti, did you try that? - Oh yeah, with the, with the, what is it called? - The beef tendon. - The beef tendon, yeah. - So it's like a kind of room temperature salad of beef tendon, which is like super thin, and it has that kind of chewy texture. And then super thin sliced, very shiny, right? Like very cute, and the thin sliced onions and this really like sweet and balanced vinegar, right? To me, I didn't love that salad. Like everybody loves, I like that. - Do you like the texture? - No, but I didn't like, was that onions and vinegar, and I think they put a little bit of oregano on there, it just tastes like stuff to put on top of an Italian salad. Like you didn't, like I, which is one of my favorite flavors, and I was like, no man, this just tastes like Italian sub to me. - That sounds like it's great. - Hey, gas, I want it. - The case like one of my favorite things. - Yeah, you're right. But I, it's a, I did, I mean, I like the restaurant as a whole, but I think about Italian sub to all the time. - I need to go back, I just don't want to wait in line. - I think you have to go back. - Yeah. - I think it's a very good restaurant, I think. - I liked all the little pastas. - Do you like waiting in line? - No, I, something recently happened to me that just like really scarred me. We're accidentally waited in line for Mommy Pays for three hours. And it's like, we get in line and you're like, okay, it's gonna go fast half an hour. And you're like, okay, then I have to wait an hour. And once it's an hour, you have to wait until you're-- - This is like the first day they open. - Yeah, you have to wait until it's, till you get to the front. - I've been there three or four times, and I never waited more than a minute. - I was a big mistake, it was a big mistake. - Yeah. - But the bigger mistake that I didn't realize was that they were filming an eater video about Mommy Pays, and I'm just featured very prominently in the background. - Just like scarred me. - No, I'm just like hungry, waiting for a seat. Trying to get this person seat who's filming an eater like on a front-facing camera. And I'm like, it's like, hey, good. - This is my secret fear, right? - So I get noticed in line, it's so embarrassing. - Well, so speaking of E. Cavillini, I'm Matthew Schneyer, who's the critic for New York Magazine. Love, I think he's a genius. And like, I can't read his reviews because they're better than mine. So like, you know, whenever we write about the same place 'cause we're on similar schedules, I'm just like, oh, it was crazy. - He's so good at it. But his E. Cavillini review, his reviews run on Wednesdays, mine run on Saturdays, and his run on the Wednesday, and then mine run a couple of days later. But the-- - You guys, I'm always wondering, do you guys like sink this up? - We don't sink it up, but like-- - 'Cause it happens like, oh, that's really crazy. - And we've run into each other a couple of times. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, there's sort of a, the cycle. - The cycle. - But you know, Greb Street, New York Magazine, for the like cover image, for their restaurant views, does these little sort of videos of the scene in the restaurant and then the headline is over it, and it's very beautiful. And the image, for his review, with the headline, for his review that was like posted on their Instagram and that's on their website, slightly blurred, but like quite visible, like right there on the left, is the friend who I brought to the restaurant for dinner when I went to E. Cavillini. And I was like, wait, Norella, is that you? Just like, that's me. She's not sitting next to anyone, and you know what? 'Cause I was in the bathroom. - Wow. - Like, I am terrified. - If you were in there, would you have asked them to take it down? - I guess, I would they have reckoned. I didn't even notice that there were people filming. - I know. - And I think I-- - That should be loud, something. - Think about this all the time. I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna get caught in someone's like TikTok creator content. Or like, I'm so close to getting caught. - You do pretend to? - No, I consume, but I do not create. - I can't let myself even consume. It's just like, I don't need another thing. I know that I would love it too much. - I don't like being on video. - Oh, sorry. - Sorry. - I do this because I love Jason. - Helen has like a close friend story, this legendary close friend story. - Is it legendary? I don't know. - To me, I don't talk to anyone about it. I don't know. That's why I wanted to talk to you about it. - That's one of the fun things about close friends on Instagram. - Yeah, you never know who's in close friends. I never want to be like-- - It's a secret. - Do you like, are you on Helen's close friends and would be like, oh no, I'm not. - That's kind of my dream, right? - Yeah. - So I think that as I have become more mature and composed about how I present myself in public on social media, I still get into fights with people. But like, you know. - It's like part of the job of being a critic. - But I like less of a like, deranged crazy person on the internet. I also have like lots of opinions about all sorts of it. It's not like a huge bitch only in my close friends, but I think it's where I like put my posting energy. - Yeah, I can, that's what, so one, I think it's, when it's really relatable to me, too, it's very inspiring to me. - Oh, thank you. - And I really wanted to talk to you. I don't know. I don't want to put your ideas on-- - I think this is interesting stuff. And I, one of the things I like about close friends before we go into this too much, is that I get to choose who sees it, right? So-- - Are you changing the people all the time? - I sometimes will like swap out a couple of folks, but it's, it's, it's people who I know for real, right? And I don't think that the person that I am on my Instagram close friends is like, meaningfully different than the person I am on my public-facing Instagram, right? It's not like I'm playing a character and then I drop character, but I do think it's like, it's a place where I sort of workshop ideas a little bit. I feel like I can be like a little more vulnerable. I talk about my personal life a little bit more. And like, there, many, many years ago, I read something about social media that said that calling it social media is kind of a misnomer. What it actually is is broadcast media. And if you think about something like Twitter or these days, I guess blue sky or threads, like it's broadcasting, it's not interacting, I do, yeah, I do, I use blue sky more than threads, but I use them both. But like it is broadcasting, like people choose to follow you. If someone follows me on one of those platforms, I don't see their content, it's a unidirectional thing. And sometimes we are mutual, but like it's a form of broadcasting and it is I think fundamentally a form of performance. And I think whether you are professionally a public person or you're professionally a semi-weirdly public, like in our job, or we're not like public people, but we're kind of our public people, like, and journalism is now about building your brand, you have to be a person. And there's like all these things that are so weird and complex about it, like people create like parosocial affiliations and like real affiliations and like you have fans and it's complex and weird. And I think that like, I like being able to have a space where I can put my like poster energy to an audience that I know is not going to like take it out of containment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And there are never crazy things. No. Well, oh, am I close to you? Yeah, this is not. I don't know. I wish there was a second layer. But I give you permission. Okay, let's see, what are we doing? This is something I was really excited to talk to you about. It's not actually controversial, but it's one of the things you post that you're like, if I had a sub-stack, I would put out and you had a whole list of things. But one of them was, why are there no food celebrities anymore? Oh, that requires an asterisk because I think there are food celebrities. There are food celebrities. We know there are food celebrities. There are. You're a food celebrity. No, I'm not. I'm remotely a food celebrity. There are food celebrities who are like creators. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's where celebrity has shifted. But what was very strange was that there was a really long inter-regnum where like the era of the TikTok or Instagram food celebrity or the sub-stack or Patreon or YouTube, etc., is like relatively recent. Yeah. I think maybe YouTube has been building for longer, but like there was a pretty big period of time there. Let's call it from like 2013 to 2020, like the beginning of the pandemic, where Americans in America as a culture was not minting new celebrity chefs. So you mean when you're saying food celebrities, you mean celebrity chefs? Well, yeah. And yes, like, right, I think I think that you definitely have these huge TikTok stars, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe the right thing is there are no restaurants, celebrities anymore. Yeah. Because I think that the creator media on whatever platform lends itself primarily to home cooking. Yeah. Or to being a diner, right? Like these like huge restaurant review accounts, basically a restaurant, restaurant promotion accounts that were the characters, the person eating the characters and the restaurant because every episode it's a different post is a different restaurant. So what we don't really have anymore are restaurants celebrities, like big celebrity chefs or big, like, restaurant tours, they're talking about Chang, I think David Chang in a lot of ways was the last was the last great celebrity chef, like of that stature of that genre of that era, like, it's like, it's like how like in ancient Greece, you could like invent a triangle and we would still know your name 7,000 years later, right? Like, there was this moment where like celebrity chefs, like all you had to do was be like relatively media genic and intelligent and get in front of a camera. And people were just like, Oh, like this cool, amazing chef. I mean, I think David Chang has undeniable charisma, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like you just they were in the restaurant and the restaurants were genre-defying. Yeah. Like, he changed the game, Momofooka changed the game massively, like the legacy of that restaurant group. I think cannot be overstated. But I think it's been a lot harder for chefs who maybe began their careers in an era where the notion of the celebrity chef already existed to follow a similar path and to maintain that degree of celebrity. And for restaurants to become these like cultural juggernauts that were led by personality for the chef is rock star trope to continue to exist in quite that same way. You feel like maybe there's like been a separation or that now their chefs that want to be chefs. And then there are chefs that and there are people that want to be stars. Yeah. And so they don't they wouldn't have you don't have to have a restaurant. Right. And I actually said in virtually any like avenue of culture, the most fertile and thrilling and exciting moment is when almost everybody who got into whatever thing did it for love of the game. And suddenly they can become stars like that's the most like second thrilling like holy shit stuff is happening moment. Which happened with food, call it like between 2003 and 2013, there was like this 10 year period where it was chefs who didn't get into it to be famous, who suddenly became famous in extraordinary ways. Like the Bourdain effect but also like Tom Cliqueo, you know, it's just a phenomenally interesting moment of people who were super real and super talented and had the it to become famous. And then everything starts falling apart because you have as you say, people who are like, I just want to be a chef, I don't want to be famous, people who just want to be famous. And both of those are great, but neither of them has like the electricity and the vibrance and the urgency and the like just extraordinary sense of cultural possibility that comes out of the moment where like the lens of culture turns and gazes upon a part of the world that it maybe had not looked at and quite that way before. Do you think that there could be like a female Bourdain or like a female Dave Chang? I mean, as I was just saying the names before, I was like, I got to come up with a way. Yeah, I know. Like, the truth is that no, and it's not because of women, it's because of society. Yeah, of course. It's not. I think that like the way that the way that we have created our language and understanding and engagement with food, as with virtually everything, not honestly, is so kind of tied to notions of masculinity and femininity and that's not to say that like only men can do this or only women can do this, but I think that there, like, there is a sort of like inherent masculine that has this sort of swashbuckling, like, give no fucks, like, Dave Chang is abrasive and kind of ass-holish and has a huge ego and is also intensely charismatic, right? And I think is brilliant. Like, and I would say there's things in the face, right? But, yeah, kind of, right? Like, I think like, you know, I'm abrasive and difficult, but like, people don't like me the same way. And like, there's also that added facet that I think like women have to be attractive in a way that men do not have to be attractive. There's a, like, you talked about this and you're a great interview with Pat Malakshmi, right? I talked about how like the, when I did a piece on her a couple of years ago too, she and I talked about it too, that like the aesthetic standards that women are held to. And she's in a particular category where like, she was hired to be hot. Yeah, yeah. And then she was like, hey, like, assholes, I am also very intelligent, which is, I imagine just like, extraordinarily frustrating. But I think that like-- Hoping the opposite happens to me. I don't know. Like, I think Simeen Nosrat is a spectacular example of someone who is brilliant, charismatic, I think super attractive. But she's not like, following like the hot girl path, right? And I think that she does work that is brilliant to me. And I think if she were a man, she'd be a fucking billionaire. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, sure, this self-bat acid heat is like one of the most important books ever. Ever? And the show was amazing. Like, she showed me extraordinary, like, you know, I think that she's chosen the parameters of her career in certain ways for like her own. I think she wants that. I don't know, right? I think that like, you know, in her new book, good things, she talks about sort of her ambivalence about success and like her emotional and mental health journeys are on these sorts of things. And I think that-- but I also think that like the experience of success, you know, this is me reading between the lines, but like, I think that her experience of success is inevitably and profoundly shaped by the fact that she experienced it as a woman. I think that like attaining the level of fame that she attained, if you're a man, it's like way less miserable, it's way more fun. Like they're not going to try to like, take you up, right? And you're like, oh, put on the push-up bra, get your manicure, where you're like waist-searching dress. They're just going to be like, show up. Be you. Like, you get to be you instead of being packaged into a commodity. And I think there are a lot of women who are extraordinary chefs, Nancy Silver-Ten, right? Like, I mean, just like Nina Compton and New Orleans, who like, do work that is interesting, that is just as narratively driven, just as genreed busting, just as like, fuck you, mom and dad, like whatever, like complex, interesting, emotional, and technically proficient cooking, that is simply read differently because they are a woman. And like, I don't know, like, yeah, okay, like, fine, Ben Shapiro, I'm a feminist who writes for the New Yorker. Like, I think that's bad. Yeah. But I also think it is what the world is and that like, we can't get past it unless we're able to talk about it. I think about it all the time. I mean, even something like, like having a podcast, it's like, now it's on video, right? It's on video. Like the whole reason I became a writer, I'm so much a podcast, like, it's because I don't like looking at me and I don't think I'm a very cooking person. Doesn't have to be. I don't want to have to be a pastor. I don't want to have to be pretty. And like, I also know that like, no matter what, there are going to be people in the comments who are like, lose some fucking weight or like, oh, like, you listen, like, yeah, I can tell she eats professionally. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, okay. Fine. Like, like, I don't know. And no one's saying that about. No one's going to say that about you. No one's going to say that about Dave Chang, no one's going to have a Maria Botale. Yeah, yeah. I have built up a lot of, I think, emotional calluses to the, like, feedback, right? Like, I know what I look like. I know how I walk through the world. In some respects, it is useful in my job as a restaurant critic, because I think a gray haired fat lady, like passes. Invisibly like way more than someone who's like striking and hot might I I say as like a total cope But like but I don't know I think that like I do think sometimes like you know if I were hot like Would I be like on the daily show, you know what I'd be like super famous, but also like if I was like a Super hot guy be an idiot. I just would be like oh, but it's super different guys Um, I just I feel like I just wouldn't do much stuff. I wouldn't do anything. Yeah No, it's weird. It's like it's I mean also. It's like, you know, what's the point of the like Kudawada Shada? Yeah, no I'm I mean we both work best jobs in the world. No, I love my job. I love that my job involves me I mean, I'm not anonymous obviously in front of like several video cameras and there's pictures of me all over the internet but like I like that my job Requires or allows allows the word I like that my job allows me to hide a little bit When you want to yeah, and then I can also say like hey, I don't want to be in this photo at a party I can be like you know, I want to kind of keep it to a minimum. You do that at parties. I just don't like being in pictures Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I have I need to start pulling that and it's a good excuse, but yeah, I don't know. It's I think that um I also like didn't set out to be famous Yeah, like I think that that's the other interesting thing is like I got into the world of writing and Journalism and all that stuff like when that was just sort of what you did and there were some people who were like Celebrity writers. There've always been like people who use their writing as a springboard to fame or who become famous But like that wasn't my interest. I wanted to just kind of be a like work a day writer and then Attention finds you. Yeah, and I think there's no way to talk about this without sounding profoundly unsympathetic but but it is an aspect of my professional life that is not a huge part of it But it's an aspect that I didn't anticipate and even after like a long time of dealing with the fact that like people can see me Yeah, I'm not a hundred percent Confident and how to navigate that when when did you know you're famous? Was there like oh? I saw I'm not famous. Come on. You they know you at every restaurant you go to and in a small world you're you're famous in a small world I guess like you know, but um I Got the first time I got stopped on the street by someone who was Very bizarre. Have you been recognized at restaurants? Yeah At parties, but I I'm like Provoked in food so people know me. Yeah, no, I the first time that someone recognized me not because they worked in the restaurant industry But because they read my stuff. Yeah, like oh my god was Like a kind of like profound existential experience for me where like I was like oh my god like like And on a certain level it's like that obviously like I there are all these people that I read all the time I consume their social media content I read all their writing and I if I read into them on the street. I'd be like ah yeah So like of course it makes sense that there are people who have that relationship to me and I love it like I feel so honored by it Oh, my god. If you ever know, no, no way to do that. This known as like a role that I don't think so. I don't know But like I wouldn't know what to say I think there's there's an interesting thing in there that we need to figure out the right way to talk about without sounding like enormous assholes but the You know, I think I mean everyone's famous in 2025 a little bit. Yeah. I'm a little happy that that I'm getting to like an age Where I'm happy to just like little a lot of that stuff pass me by. Mm-hmm. I don't want to be a TikTok star. Yeah, I don't want to Put my face out there on videos or like and yet and yet and yet here we are like I have so much I want to say all the time to everybody constantly and so like maybe I don't know. It's someone whenever you want I'm gonna just take over your show. Yeah, you can just be the Jason and Helen show. I mean that would be a great show What some one of the ones that I I really I didn't even know what she meant It's but you wrote recipes are brain rock. Oh god. What is that? Yeah, this is another hot take for my Instagram close friends. Yeah Natasha Pickowicz is a brilliant pastry cook And has written a phenomenal cookbook called more than cake that is called the thing is this weekend She's a huge bake sale she does like incredible like fundraising bake sales too, but she's this great cookbook called more than cake That is I think one of my all-time favorite baking cookbooks. She was on Subway takes today. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I saw that and her baking is not easy. You're wrong. Her take was baking is easy She's completely correct. And this is what I mean by recipes are brain rock. Mm-hmm. So Recipe the way that it is written in American culture and also the way that I think it has been like codified into American cooking culture This might be the case in other places in the world, but I'm specifically talking like American Canada, right like I'm specifically talking about the place I know a recipe we have been trained passively actively whatever to read a recipe and turn off our thinking brains like Buy these things on the list exactly as they are and if like the recipe calls for flat-leaf parsley and a store only as curly Parsley you go into an existential spiral right like follow the Destructions precisely and like there's no independent thought. There's no improvisation. There's no problem-solving and Recipes Should not function that way. Yeah, and I think that like we have this like entire country of hundreds of millions of people like many of whom cook only from Recipes and receive those recipes the way that like a computer receives an input program instead of receiving the recipes like a human being Engaging with substances. They are familiar with and having confidence in themselves and their senses like their sense of smell and taste and visual and hearing Yeah, and all of those things and just like making it work like if a recipe calls for parsley and you only have basil It's probably going to be okay. It'll be different But it'll probably be fine and even if you think you're a bad cook you fundamentally understand on some level that these Green herbaceous things can kind of be swapped for each other. The people can't taste You think that like sometimes when people say they can't cook I think that she said they can't taste It's true like we taste the sauce or something and we're like, oh, this can have this in it I definitely think that tasting is a skill. Yeah cooking is a skill It's not like they have no taste. No, I just mean that and I think you can have a train to think about it They're themselves. But I also think that like and that's absolutely the case I think like some people are better cooks than others. It has a lot to do with taste like My husband when he and I met 20 years ago was like didn't cook at all and Over the years he has learned, you know how to taste something and say I think this needs some lemon juice He needs some salt. He recently this was like such a beautiful triumphant moment for me. We're baking cookies And if you bake a lot you can learn how to tell by smell when The myard reaction and the caramelization basically start happening But like the cookies in the oven will smell like butter and sugar and flour, but then all of a sudden after you know 11 or 13 minutes they'll start smelling darker and Like being a dog. Yeah, and he smelled it He was like wait, I think the cookies are ready and he was right and like that's something that you could probably learn on the first try If you sit down and decide I'm gonna, you know pay attention to the way the air smells But so that aspect of skill definitely is something you can work on and you can build up But I think that the way that we engage with recipes as a permission structure to turn off all of our rational thought is what makes people Bad cooks and also I think that the recipe I've talked about this before the the fundamental unit of cooking is not the recipe The fundamental unit of cooking is like measured in days or weeks, right? Like you buy a bunch of parsley to go back to the parsley It's very rare that a recipe calls for an entire bunch of parsley And it's not that grocery stores should that should sell smaller amounts of these things. It's that the way that we cook should not just be a single recipe done once And then it is a completed task like tomorrow out there who is like semi-nose right another lump of shapenese And a phenomenal cookbook writer has this amazing book called an everlasting meal. It's the best so it's it's basically a philosophy. Yeah It's like a philosophy. It's so great and it will totally change the way you think about cooking But it is about this idea that like All cooking feeds into all other cooking and it's not just that like the leftovers become the next meal It's that like the odds and ends the bits and pieces like everything Coalesces into a complete hole that is in some ways like ever moving and Never changing but like and worst case just make a soup. Yeah Yeah exactly and like I think that that um That we need like to divest ourselves from recipes and free ourselves from the shackle of the like recipe as You know like dick-taught and start Allowing ourselves to just like under and this is I think part of vice means first cook book salt fat as a feed is also so Because of how to eat more than it teaches like it teaches you how to cook but it teaches you how to cook in In the way that an eater should cook right which is like to understand philosophically what is happening in this recipe There is a book that I really love by a guy who I think is a huge turd Michael Roman Called ratio and it is about the fundamental ratios Behind a lot of recipes so like the salad dressing fundamental ratio or the cookie fundamental ratio or the like The making a stew Julia Tertian who is not a turd an amazing cookbook writer kind of gets into this very Similarly and in her most recent cookbook whose name has just escaped me so by that book instead of buying ratio, but um Like if you're gonna make a stew you need like a pound of meat or something like meat You need like a half a pound of a root vegetable and like That's to me such a more intuitive and important and opening and actually like intelligence and cultural engagement and human engagement and society engagement way of thinking about cooking is to know that like I can just use what I have. I can use what I can afford. I can use what I've access to. I can use what's seasonally appropriate. And I can trust myself and I can be an agent and architect of the food that I'm making. Instead of just being like a meat and skin robot that takes the input and creates lasagna, like I can choose what I like. And that can be scary because you have to think about what you like. And you just decide what you're interested in. - I think people don't know what they like. - I think that's why everyone needs a list, like needs to read a sub-stack where it's like, go buy, go buy this pair of boots from the row. - And it's fine because lots of people are doing more important things than thinking about what they like all the time. - I think that the right way to live is sort of a hybrid of this that and the other, right? Like and it's not that I want everyone to just be like, you know, free associating in the kitchen all the time. Like there is, and I think one of the things that's great about like Julia Tertian's book is that in setting you up with these formulas, she explains why they work, but she also gives you enough structure that you're not, you know, like everyone wants to, like be Picasso without learning how to draw first. You know, like you can't break the rules until you understand how the rules are, why they are. It's not that hard. Cooking is not. - Baking is hard though. - No, if you fall. So baking. - You need the recipes to bake. - So to go back to Natasha McQuats, right? - Yeah. - And her, like, baking is actually easy. - I only saw the-- - So her sub-way take was baking is actually easy. She's correct. And this is interestingly the flip side of this, because I, if you follow the instructions and this is a big caveat, and you are following a good recipe. - But you have to be following the recipe. - Right. You will not mess up at baking. However, people like to improvise when they're cooking. - I love that, that's why I can't bake. - No, but that's not, I think this is a confidence thing. I think you have to have a lot of confidence in order to trust the recipe. And in order to be willing to go with the recipe and the journey it wants to take you on. And so, like, if I have an Natasha Pico that's a recipe in front of me, and I know she rigorously tests her recipes, I know they work, I know they're thoughtful, I know they're balanced, I know she's not going to include unnecessary elements or take me somewhere that doesn't make sense. Like, I want to do exactly what she says. - Yeah. - And it will work. If you say, I do not have the disposition for baking. - That's what I'm saying. - That doesn't mean baking is hard. That means you're-- - For hard, hard. - Oh. - I am weak. - We're all weak, we're all weak in our own way. - Well, I guess maybe it's time to go out and shout out. - I've blown up my whole career. - No, no, your podcaster, do you have a new career? - Okay. - But now I guess we're going to do our shout outs. - Okay. - Yeah, so I'll start, this is just an easy one, but it feels like fall in New York, so I'm shouting out Jacket Weather. - Love Jacket. - I'm just so happy to be wearing something cozy. Makes everyone look nicer, jacket or sweater. Everyone looks better in a jacket or sweater. - Love it. - I was so excited to wear the sweater today. - I was going to ask, there's always something that you're so excited to wear once it becomes like. - Oh my God. - I have this an embarrassingly large collection of acne studio sweaters. I think they make the best sweaters. - They're so good. - They're tactile. - I have so many of them and they are, I should not blow this up so cheap on the real real, like so affordable. And I'm, I'm sorry. - We're very comments too. - Yeah. - Yeah, there's an acne. - Oh, there's an acne. - It's really good. - So this is one of my favorite acne stuff. I don't know, I love it. - Nice. - It's very happy. - That's my first shout out. - Okay, so you're a sweater weather? - Sweater weather. - Jacket weather, sweater weather. - Oh my God, but do I want a shout out? There's so many things. I had so many. Oh my God, what are they? - You know what I want to shout out? I want to shout out a spice blend called the Magic Spice. - Magic Spice. - It's made by Botanica, the restaurant in LA. And I love it so much and I put it on everything. - It's been it. - It's like whole coriander seeds. It's got mint and dried lime and some salt and I think some black pepper. And I. - What do you put it on? - So what I like to do is eat a hard boiled egg by dipping it in the spice and then kind of bite of it, which is maybe a crazy person thing to do. But I put it, I roasted some carrots the other day and then I sprinkled it on the top and it's just addictive. It is so good. And I talk about it all the time and I recently bought my third jar in a year, which is like quickly I go through the spice. I love it. - The Magic Spice. - It's called the Magic Spice. - The Magic Spice. - Botanica, which is like a really wonderful restaurant in LA, made it as a collab with this clean beauty brand, usually on whatever. But like it's delicious. It's so good. - I love it. - Yeah. - My next one is, this is kind of lame, but it's Los Tacos number one. I went there yesterday. I hadn't been there in at least a year, not a few years. They opened so many locations and I was like, oh, I can't be good. So I haven't been going, but I went just like, I was in a rush yesterday and I got it and I was like, tastes like real food. - Yeah. - And they have like a system where they print out your ticket and then they have like a bunch of guys and they had a counter and you give it to one of them and they ask you, what kind of tortilla you want and what you want on top of it. And it's just like a nice way for them to do fast food 'cause someone's like actually making your food and it tastes like real food and it's pretty good. Yeah, I was impressed. - I'm so happy that it's easier to get good tacos in New York than it used to be. - I know, but also it's one of my favorite things to complain about. - Yeah, what are we missing now in New York? - We're missing like Persian food with the kind of Middle Eastern food. - Okay. - We are missing-- - There are some spectacular Persian restaurants. - What is it? - So fra, I mean, but they're well like-- - Nazareens, there's a bunch of wonderful places. - Really? - Yeah. Yeah, I think-- - I've been to, they're good. I mean, like, I don't know. - I think it's, I don't know. I think so fra is one of the great restaurants in New York. - So fra is very good, but it's like a fancy-ish restaurant. It's not like a fancy, it's like-- - Even though in jeans, you walk a lot. - I know, but it's like, it's not like-- - It's an elegant restaurant. - It's not like a-- - It's not like a-- - It's not a shithole. - I guess I'm just always jealous of LA and so many-- - No, I completely agree. I think that, I think that like pound for pound LA is the best food city in America, maybe the world. - Do you think that'll stir into the world? - No, the world. - Disappearing from New York. - I haven't seen them as much of the use. - I know. - There was a huge explosion, like a few years ago with a million-- - Yeah, Chris wrote the thing and then I wonder if they all left 'cause of Chris Crowley's peace. - You know what? Australia has that I think that New York needs is chicken salt. That's what we make. That's gonna be my next shout out, chicken salt. - Oh, chicken salt. - Chicken salt is so good. - That's a good one. - So, most chicken salt-- So chicken salt is basically like chicken salt-- - It's just MSG. - It's just MSG, but like there was this-- I think Deadly's is still open on the lower east side. They used to, they might still make their chicken salt from actual pulverized fried chicken skin. Like not from just like bullion, but it was like-- - That sounds amazing. - It was unbelievably good. And you used to be able to, and by past tense here, I mean like 10 years ago, like salt, you used to be able to go to the restaurant and buy a jar of their chicken salt. And it was the best thing on earth. And it just occurred to me, wow, okay, sorry, I'm having a big moment right now. Have you fried chicken skin is one of my favorite things on earth? Like it's like deep Jewish culture, right? It's grubbidness and it's like just spectacular. It's like when you're rendering chicken fat to cook with, you'd render it from the skins and then the-- It's chicharon, it's chicharon, chicharon. For a very, very long time, I was like, well, you know, we have like crispy pork skins in bags that you can buy at a bodega, like why can't we buy crispy chicken skins? And there's now this brand-- - Corks. - Cork. - Cork. I think markets itself is like, you know, keto and paleo and whatever, but it's like fried chicken skin. - I'm like five or six bucks in bags. - Oh, that's great. Yeah, I was thinking $15. - And I've blotted a few times. Not so much to eat as a snack, but because it's really great to crumble them up and use it as like a garnish on food. - It's nice. - And sometimes there's like a little feather, still stepping in here. - Oh, that's real. - And I have the same feeling I have when we have the baby pig face. But it's like, oh yeah, this is a real creature. But it just occurred to me that it's-- I think a long time ago on The New York Times, they wrote an article about the Deadly's Chicken Sal. And there was a recipe that involved like, render down 10 pounds of chicken skin. I was like, I'm never gonna do that. And it just occurred to me that I could go by flock. - Just granted. - Fry chicken skins, grind it up and make my own chicken salt. - What would you put it on? - Everything. - Yeah. - Popcorn is really nice. - Mm-hmm. - Veggies, bread and butter with chicken salt on it is so good. - Bread and butter. - Like a good, thick, hunky slice of sourdough with like a really salty, French butter and then a sprinkle of chicken salt over the top. - Did you veggie mine or no? - I'm like, in moderation. It's not my taste. - You should be buying it, really. - Yeah. - If you're not else trying, it's weird. - Okay, so that was my second shout out. What's your story? - This is another kind of lame one, but I was reading Tammy's thing about the liqueurseis. And this week, I mean, I must tell you-- - The liqueurseis is chugi. It's such a perfect sentence. - I never said the word chugi out loud. I didn't know how to say it. Thanks for telling me. - You're welcome. - But I'm a style guy. - Okay. - And this week it's jacket weather, but it's also, I love it to make a pasta geno basic. - Oh. - So I made one and for those who don't know, it's basically five pounds of onions. And how many pounds of meat did I use? Two pounds of meat, and you just slow cook it for four hours. And it turns into a meat and onion mush. - Sounds incredible. - It was amazing. But I used my big stove for it. That's made a career in my big stove this week. - Do you have the stove that has underneath the lids, the little drop? - Yeah, yeah, that's why I like a stove. - That's better for braising. - It's like stabs. - That's why it's better than crusade. - Right. to the the The conical shape of the lid on the La Cruzey is supposed to create that effect in a kind of Tijini sort of way. But the stub, the little like is it still actite or still actite? It's still actite. The whole tight to the ceiling. That's so good. To like help the water regain, which is perfect for brazing. Yeah. It is brazing with it. Follows the best. I know. I'm so excited. But also for my wedding registry someone bought us, I put it on kind of everything on my wedding registry. It's like kind of a joke, but I got a Monchichi, like a really cool Monchichi. It's running a gas mask. As a wedding gift. It's $200. It's just Monchichi. I was like, I didn't think it was actually going to buy it, but I got a style that's like a dragon style. Oh, that's so rad. Yeah, I know. I'm very excited about that. Oh, that's super cool. I have a bunch of La Cruzeys. Oh, so you're like who say person? So I inherited like a very old gigantic La Cruzey French oven from a Dutch oven from my great aunt when she died. And so it's so old that it's, it doesn't, it has like the, it doesn't even have the old knob. Like they change the knobs like 10 years ago to not reach temperature. It is just a handle that's built into the animal. Oh, yeah. It's 70 or 80 years old. It's ancient. And then when I got married, 13 years ago, we got a bunch of other La Cruzeys stuff. And so now I'm just kind of locked in. Yeah. Because you have it and you use it forever. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. I was reading something recently that was like stop getting new dishes in silverware every three or four years. And I was blown away by this because I've been using my dishes in silverware for like 20 years. Are people really cycling through their tableware like the same way they cycle through their jeans? I've been using my IKEA plates for 20 years. Anyway, but so I, you know, I keep my pots and pans forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that if you, you know, it's it's the Sam Vines boots theory, right? Like if you spend the money now, you never have to spend the money again. Yeah. So like I have all cloud pans and I have La Cruzey deep pots. And I spent the money once or got it as a gift. And I haven't bought new cookware in decades. But yeah, I don't know. I should come up with a third thing. Yeah. My third shout out is to my daughter. I think you knew it. I was almost going to steal it just too. So you're going to say my shout out is Helen's daughter on you. But parenthood is the coolest thing in the entire world. And I think that people who don't want to be parents shouldn't be it. But the people who do want to do it. It's fucking awesome. I love it. I love being a parent in a way that I did not expect. I was like a very ambivalent about becoming a mother for both feminists and psychological reasons person. And parenthood is so fascinating and so magical. And watching a person come online is the coolest thing I've ever experienced in my life. And language and emotion and comprehension and humor and personalities emerge. I am not a religious person. I am a full blown reddit atheist. But I think it is impossible to raise a child in the first year of their life and not believe fundamentally in the idea of a soul. Like watching my daughter be a person instantly. The instant she left my body. She was immediately a person she had personality. She was there. She was alive and so distinct from anyone else in the room. And then become herself. Grow into herself. Like it's made me a total fucking sap for the entire rest of the world. I like have a harder time eating meat. I have a harder time consuming media about violence. I like see like evil monstrous people. Like the men who are destroying the world right now. And I do not forgive them. And I do not feel compassion for them. But what I do see and I think I've spoken to a lot of parents, moms, dads. Like every gender who have had this experience of you suddenly see in the most horrible adults. The child that they were. And the ways in which love or a lack of love. They have created them. And it is a profound and like life fuck uping in the most beautiful way thing to do and be and see. Wow. That's a good one. Also my daughter is really rad. And I like her. And she's great hair. Shout out on you. Shout out on you. Well, thank you so much for coming. This was for having a real journey. But that was expense account. See you next time. Bye. Thank you. Expense account is the production of Feed Me. In partnership with Public Sound and Substack. Our executive producers are Emily Semberg, Jason Gauntlet, and Ryan Woodhall. Our associate producer is Camille Fette. Our audio engineer is Luke Maldolf. Our video editor is Izzy Cross. And our graphic designer is Justin Sloan. Expense account is recorded at WSA NYC. For more episodes, visit us at www.ev.substack.com. See you next week.