Heated Rivalry creator Jacob Tierney on how Anne Carson changed his life

- This is a CBC podcast. (upbeat music) - Jacob Tierney, first of all, I am so delighted that you're here. I was like, I wanna set the stage for the reason we are talking, because it's good to announce that Ann Carson has received the Nobel Prize in literature. She's a third Canadian to do so. That's a pretty big deal. And also at the same time, you kinda look at the situation and go, "Okay, it's maybe time." She's 76 years old. She's kind of created some of the greatest works of our generation. And then you posted about this. I posted about this. And then you said, "Oh man, "this is an author who has changed my life. "I've read all of her work." And I was like, "Oh, well, let's go talk to Jacob Tierney about it." So I'm gonna start by asking you, as you can imagine, tell me about the first time you encountered Ann Carson's work. - The first time was autobiography of Red, for sure. I was a teenager and I mean, I think like most people who read that book, I had never read anything like it. I did not understand what was happening. And it was one of the most moving. I think I read it three times in a row. Like I just couldn't stop reading it. And it's really funny. I forgot, I mean, I've read almost everything that Ann Carson has published, including "Rong Norma" the book that she released. I believe last year, which is an amazing collection. And it's so like, it's so interesting to think about her writing, 'cause I think people are intimidated by it. And the thing that is so amazing about Ann Carson is actually how, once you get into it, it's so present and it's so available to a reader. You don't have to know as much about the Ancient Greeks as she does. She's not asking you to. Really, it's so, it's so moving. But when I first was, you know, when I was first doing press for "Heter rivalry," that people were asking me so much about "M.M. Romance" written by women. And they were, and truly, and it hadn't even occurred to me. I was like, oh, I started reading this stuff during the pandemic, and "Heter rivalry" was one of the first ones that I read. And at a certain point, I was like, no, the first one I read was autobiography of read. And it is still to this day, the one very few books have ever affected me in the same way that book did. We're talking about a book like, this is a book that came out in 1998. This is a book that, it's, the reason it's impossible to describe is that it's a novel inverse, right? It's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's basically one long poem that is describing this novel. It's a re-imagining of a fragment of a poem that she found, that she took that fragment herself. I love the myth of Heracles in Gary, and, right? Like, the kind of structurally that way. But it's about a kid in Nova Scotia, who thinks that he's unlovable and ugly and falls in love with this boy, who he thinks is the coolest boy in the world. And then kind of grows red wings and becomes a monster and falls this boy to Argentina, as one person. And who among us has not been in that exact situation? Who among us is not? Okay, so you read this book and then you go, I'm gonna read this thing three times. When you say that she's very like, when you can kind of like get inside her work, I think like the thing that really strikes me about Anne Carson, for someone who's so celebrated, she's incredibly accessible. Like, we're talking about like, the kind of reading, it's just, it just moves. Like, you're just in it and then you can't get out of it. You know? >> It is deeply this for all, it's very emotional, it's very present. I think of when I think of for writing now, the thing that I would think of besides Barbarian fear of red is the beauty of the husband, which is a kind of bunch of poems about her divorce and about also relationship with her mother. And they are vivid, they are, they're almost, it's almost the opposite of dense poetry in the sense that it's like, there's a whip lash to it. When you finish them and you're like, wait, what are you just reading and you go back and you're reading again? Because when she said has actually been deceptively plain and simple, her writing is, I think, as accessible as contemporary poetry is Kineke. >> Yeah. >> And it's also, I mean, her turn of phrase, like everything, it's just, her writing is exquisite. And I believe that she really changed writing. I, you know, I recently met Ocean of Long. And like, I don't think there would be, people would not write like Ocean writes. >> It wasn't saying, Carson. >> It wasn't saying Carson. >> There would be no idea of this kind of, these short, lyrical poetry-based novels. And I mean, oceans have the same thing to me. Like this is not no criticism, he's genius. But like, and Carson kind of cracked open the idea of a narrative of a novella. Because I don't think he'd be called a novel, really. But like, it's a novella or a very long short story. And just was like, you can do whatever you want with this. You can make this as, as, as, as, as, the serial and as funny and as sexy and as great poetry can be. >> Yeah, yeah. >> The thing that you're, okay, first of all, I should describe to folks who are listening on the radio. You're literally jumping up and down as you talk with Ann Carson. And I just, I'm off from the bouncy chair. >> I'm in a bouncy chair. >> Okay, you're bouncing up and down. You're a bouncy chair because of Ann Carson. But I think that's the, that's the kind of reaction that I think she indentures and it makes sense to me. Because I'm just going to redo like a part of the citation for the Nobel Prize. Like when they give her the citation, they said, you know, for playful dialogue with the, with the classical tradition, she's created new forms for contemporary literature. I mean, like, the recognition is being like, oh, she just did a thing that no one had done before with language. Like, that's sort of the idea they're working with. >> Well, and I think in a way of, and history and structure. Like, the structure to me is always the kind of final frontier. And like, the way that she, I saw this interview with her recently. There's many asked her, but like, recommend, what was your recommendation to young writers and new writers and two? She said, start in the middle, which I love because I would absolutely never do it. I can't write like that. But I love that she does because that is the feeling of like, start in the middle of the emotion. >> Yeah. >> For somebody who is such an, obviously, an extraordinary intellectual. Her books and her writing is so emotional. And there's so much feeling, the feeling in them is palpable. I think that's what I mean by whiplash, too, it's emotional whiplash. >> Yeah. >> Because the simplicity of what is being put forward to you is then it accumulates into massive amounts of feeling. >> Yeah, I, on my way into the studio to have this conversation with you. I read into CBC books producer Bridget, and Bridget gave me the copy that she had in her hand of autobiography of Red right here. And she told me to ask you about this, so I'm doing it because I'm going to read, I'm going to read very briefly this page. The page is, she was standing before him now, smiling hard and rummaging in his face with her eyes. Read the loon book, he said. This was Gagy. The loon book was an instruction manual for calling loons. Jacob Tierney, did you invoke the loons and he, because of Ann Carson? That's the question for you. >> No, but maybe Rachel Reid did. I invoke the reason Rachel Reid, maybe Rachel, I mean, listen, it's set in Nova Scotia, right? Maybe, maybe this was as formative for Rachel as it was for me. I have no idea, we're very close in age. So I would have been like 19 or 18 when this book came out, I love that. I forgot about that part. I just remember the trench coat and the dancing and a lot of things. I remember a lot of things from that book. >> Well, let me ask you this, because we are literally speaking as you are currently on your lunch break while you make season two of Heated Rival. I feel bad for holding up the nation. I feel like we'd get the show faster if I didn't go. >> Honestly, the Prime Minister is not thrilled with you. >> And I deserve all this cold game we're going to get. >> I told him, I had to tell him, I had to let him know. >> Yeah, I had to do this. But even though I'll take the blame for this, but just to take a moment and pause, how do you think reading and cars that is affected the way that you write, do you think? >> You know, I think that she's one of those writers. I think it's, listen, I think a lot about writing is when you read people, right? Like, they affect you the most when you are the most. And Clarkson is just perfect for me being a person in their mid 40s. When I was in my late teens to start reading her, that's when, that's when writing, I think hits you, it's kind of like, I can tell how old you are but what your favorite bands are, right? Nothing will ever mean as much shoes when you were 15, 14, 16, those ages. And I think it's not that similar for big readers, with writing in your late teens really 20s when you kind of start devouring and you find the things that mean the most to you. What Anne Carson taught me was that no idea is too big, to explain to somebody in a simple way, that there is no topic that is untouchable, that you should look at the classics, look at history. She got me reading the Greeks, she got me reading Romans, she got me reading Homer. I mean, I read Homer because of Anne Carson and I think that where she, what is so amazing about the kind of professional aspect of her as a teacher through her own writing is that she encourages curiosity and she wants you to learn and she does not present as though she has answers. And I think within that are all the answers. I completely agree. It's exactly the impression that I get out of reading Anne Carson, you sort of read it over and over again and say, it takes so much time to get the, it's, she's very precise with the way that she's open, which is like very hard things to sort of do, right? Like as you sort of like, sit and move through this work. I also have to say that like you are the creator of probably the preeminent coming of age, gay love story on the planet in the moment, but you are a a way describing a lineage that goes back to Anne Carson. Do you see your work as in conversation with her? I wish to be in conversation with Anne Carson. I mean, you know, my next dose about young Alexander the great. I know. Yes. I absolutely consider myself to be in conversation with she's unquestionably writing on topics that interest me. So yeah, and I think they're probably some of those things interest me because of Anne Carson. There's no doubt about she is, I would say along with like Graham Greene and Dustin Evsky, like the three writers that I've read the most that had the most impact that I've thought about the most and who's writing I go back to the most, not because of how the writing changes but because of how I change. And then I want to read them again at different points in my life so that I get a different, I take something different from it. But what remains is the exquisiteness of the craft, like the writing itself, just the, again, like the simplicity of it. She's so economical and to be that economical is every writer's, it should be every writer's design. How can I say the most of the fewest amount of words? Yeah. And she does that so, so perfectly. I think there's something to be said about Anne Carson. As the, I've said this before a million times, but you know, in, get any group of writers in a room together and say, Hey, who do you think is the best living writer? And the real testament is like the name you're going to say that no one will argue with, even if they, even have a different name, if you go Anne Carson, no one in the room is going to go, Oh, that's a bad opinion because I'll go like, Yes, I see exactly how you landed on that, you know, 100%, 100%. And also another thing, you know, if I've given you a copy of autobiography of red, it means I had a crush on you. Like I've given that book, I think I bought like 30 of those books in my life. I have no half of them would give it away to boys that I was like, you should read this. I'm now, I'm now imagining 45 different men out there in the world being like, hey, wait a minute, that's exactly where I said, I thought you were around it. It felt like you were rounding down. You know, like I was like, no, let's round back up. It wasn't much like Anne Carson. I won't be pinned down and I won't be told what I did in the past. My very favorite thing about Anne Carson is that despite being this prolific writer who has changed literature for so many people, she's so shy that she does not really want to talk about it. She just wants to let the work do the talking. I saw an interview with her fairly recently where someone said, Hey, what are you reading this contemporary? And she said, I haven't read anything contemporary. All I read are very, very old text. She's like, yeah, yeah, she's talking about Homer again. Yeah, she's like, you know, yeah, I also feel like what I love about watching Anne Carson be interviewed is that she's sabotaging this. She doesn't care. Yeah, but I would have loved to see her reaction to winning because I remember quite vividly another writer that meant a lot to me, Doris Lessing, when Doris Lessing won, and somebody caught her bringing in her groceries, they were like, Doris, you want the Nobel Prize? And she was like, oh, who gives up shit? And then stopped. I was like, I shouldn't say that I'm grateful. Like it was so funny. As you can imagine, I'm not going to let you go while you're on set at heated rivalry season two without asking you, hey, Jacob, what do you listen to these days? What do you listen to? What do you, what do you, what do you know? You love asking me this question because I'm not going to answer you. I only listen to music. It is going to be a season of heat arrival. Back to my basket. And I'm not going to tell you. I know, but you know what? If I didn't ask, then we wouldn't have the relationship that we have now. We wouldn't have this pattern. Which people love. People love. People really give us more of this pattern. You know, to give the people that they want. Jacob, I'm going to buy you a copy of autobiography of Red. I know you already have one, but I'll buy you another one. You know one? I think you need it. All right. Well, take up dirty. Appreciate to go around the show pal. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate you. Thank you. Bye. Man, that guy is just the best. That was Jacob Tierney, the creator of heated rivalry, the TV show. We were speaking about the Canadian poet and Carson being awarded this year's Nobel Prize for literature. By the way, I should tell you, Jacob Tierney himself has got a new book. It's coming out next week. It's called I'll believe in anything the making of heated rivalry season one. I'm really excited to go find that in the meantime. My name is Aluminum Dumas Mood. This show is called commotion. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts