Healing Avoidant Attachment

Are we started? - We're recording. - All right, great. Well, welcome back. This is episode probably nine, I think, right? We're gonna talk about whatever. I was thinking we'll talk about attachment, but avoid an attachment today. But before we jump in, Vinny wanted to, you know, brag about me a little bit. - Oh yeah. Jacob was on the news. Like the big news, not like local bullshit. He was on like the major news. - I was literally on TV. Like I can't believe it. It's crazy. I was talking about attachment style. So, I mean, guys, look, that's my credentials. Yeah, I'm on TV. You guys are watching this online. Some people might even be here from TV now. They might have seen me talk about that. - They can't even have an area. - Oh, oh yeah. - I guess this will probably be posted by time it's aired. - That's true. - We'll see. Anyways, I'm the attachment guy. - So, cool. - You wanna analyze how you did? - Yeah. I think I did. I honestly felt like I froze right before they filmed it. But after getting the clip back, I was like, "Wow, it was phenomenal." But I think that's how trauma works, right? - Yeah. - You train yourself and then your body physiologically just reacts whatever you've rehearsed over time. So, I rehearsed a whole lot. And that's actually pretty fitting for our next episode after this, which is going to be on probably social anxiety. But anyways, that was fantastic. And again, please like and subscribe. We're poor and we would like more money. - Yeah. And also, just as someone who watched it, because I watched it before it aired, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but destroyed. And just for a public facing compliment, honestly, like the way you talked was so concise and so to the point. So for like the average audience to grasp, it was so good. Like it was so good. I watched it twice. Once by myself and then once over Elizabeth's shoulder. - Wow. - No, that's an incredible compliment. - It was so good, like seriously. But anyway, let's talk about some stuff. - Yeah, that has me up so much. - Cool. Man, y'all are. - Anyways, yeah, let's jump into attachment. So I thought today would be good to talk about avoid an attachment as a brief recap for those of you who haven't been tuning into our other episodes. - People who are just like Jesus Christ, we know. - Like this guy is so repetitive. - No, it's, I like to always go back to the strange situation that was done by Mary Ainsworth to talk about attachment. So in other words, there were these kids that were analyzed and they had a mom walk in with their kids. And there was a two-way mirror where this experimenter would observe how kids would react to when their mom would enter and then leave the room. And then the kids would be either really frazzled because of that or they would be like seemingly like everything was okay. Today we're going to talk about the kids that seemed like they were pretty much okay with avoidant attachment. So in the strange situation, the kids who seemed like they were okay actually had racing hearts. They felt like once mom left, they had to mask their symptoms in a way. They had to mask the physiological reaction that they were experiencing. And then once mom would return, they would try to hold the infant and then the infant would make their body heavy in mom's arms. And then the infant would start to like lean away. And from face value, it seems like while this kid really doesn't need their mom. But in reality, the kids heart rate was decreasing while it had more attachment with the mother. So overall, taking that experiment and putting it in the place of adult attachment and how adults react to separation, connection, that's kind of the focus of this episode today. And we'll talk a little bit about how can you work with avoidant attachment? How are you as an adult still operating with the same defense mechanisms as a kid? I feel like that's a very good intro. And I feel like the way what's interesting about avoidant attachment is it feels like the most. I think what's confusing about avoidant. about attachment in general is like, okay, like babies are doing this thing. How does that. What does that mean for adults? And avoidant attachment is the one where the baby's behavior is most obviously connected to the adult behavior. Like pretending like you don't care, pretending like you don't need this thing. That you definitely need. It's so like such a one-to-one direct line from infant to an adult with avoidant attachment. Yeah, I always find it fascinating like how with avoidant attachment. It's just such a concrete image of like a real thing that you typically see with avoidant attachment. It's like the adult that is just so untouched with their emotions and they're crying. And then you look at them in therapy and they're like, I just don't know why I'm crying. It's just that disconnection of the kid physiologically in the experiment didn't realize their heart was racing likely. And the thing about avoidant attachment is they actually can be unconscious of these things, which is fascinating to me. Like it's such a. Well, they definitely are unconscious because it's like, think about it. Like if an infant is capable of pretending like they don't need their mother. Right. Right. Like the depth of it's not a conscious choice. It's such an unconscious choice. It's so crazy when you think about it. Like, okay, this infant is dependent on this thing for survival. But because that thing it's dependent on is so unpredictable, it's going to actively inhibit its natural response, which is to grasp for comfort. Right. Like it's going to inhibit its grasp for comfort before it knows its ABCs. Like how is that even possible? Right. It's like ABCs are more familiar than. But it's absurd for comfort. Yeah. It's so weird. That is. That is. I'm like, what could it be like to have inhibited it so early as an adult? It's like so foreign. But that's why healing avoidant attachment will talk a lot about can be so difficult, even if it's very straightforward sometimes, because these things have been ingrained since childhood. And some people on the outside will say, "Hey, this avoidant person is just awful and they don't care about me." But a lot of times it really is difficult for them to catch their emotions, which is the opposite with anxious attachment. And a lot of people with avoidant attachment end up with people with anxious attachment. And then the anxious attaches are like, "How could this person just not care about my emotional experience?" And a lot of times rooted in this, they don't care about their own, you know? I hear a listeners comment go, "Yeah, but what about people who. people act like that, and they actually don't care." It's like, "Yeah." So it's kind of like. not to give away my political perspective, but it's kind of like saying that a welfare program shouldn't exist because people will take advantage of it. It's like, "No, it's like. it's there, it happens, it helps people, and other people will look at that and use it as cover to gain something." You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't mean you throw out every person who's mildly avoidant, because there are going to be shitty people who look at the avoidant attachment persona and go, "That's a good persona for me to inhabit." As a way to, you know, take advantage of someone and not have to commit to them. It's like, "Yeah, of course, that's. that is something someone could take advantage of, but being able to discern the difference between someone who's earnestly trying to improve the way they relate to you, versus someone who is just kind of blowing smoke up your ass, that's your responsibility to know the difference, or at least be able to identify the difference. And I think that's a huge point, because with all the comments that out, I do a lot of things with my story. I'll post like, "Hey, what are some tips for working with the avoidant attachment? What are some tips for healing anxious attachment? And with anxious attachment, you get a lot of comments like, "Oh, this will be very thoughtful. Be kind to yourself. Do all these things." But when I post a avoidant attachment, 20% of the comments are run for the hills. Fuck those people. Like they're narcissistic or something. Right. And it's like, these people are human too, and they get a bad rep sometimes. And this is the stuff that we're talking about that's most scary to them, emotions. So of course, that they're already scared to be in this place, and yet people will be threatening as they try to approach the space. And that just makes me think, like, if there ever is a. Okay, so it's like unconscious, that they. babies that are avoidant become inhibited, right? It's like unconscious. But what they learn is. So when a baby, when an infant expresses an emotion of displeasure in some way, and the parent does not show up for them, because that's how avoidant attachment is formed. What does the infant unconsciously learn? When I express my emotions, people leave. And therefore, that inhibition response is rooted in this false belief that they caused the departure. You know what I mean? So as an adult, when you have avoidant attachment, it's rooted in this very childlike misunderstanding of this person left because I express displeasure. So I'm going to have to inhibit that with you so that you don't leave. Yeah, and I find that so often would avoid an adult. Like, they'll come to therapy. And sometimes they'll even word vomit their problems, because they've been in so many spaces where they've just held it all in. And it's because there's this underlying belief that people won't receive their emotional expressions, like just like in childhood. They'll be the one in a group of people that have this really big concern. And when you're like, why hasn't anybody asked about, you know, the thing that happened with my mom last week? And it's because they want to hold this polished sort of posture and they don't realize that people can't read them that well. And they feel like, well, if they volunteer the information, then that feels weak. And that feels like almost maybe manipulative to them. Because they're like, why would I have been their arm to care about my concerns? So a lot of times I find that avoid and clients they want people to -- to naturally ask those questions before they open up. On top of that, they also want to feel like they can trust you before they even tell you those details. And then they go on their private space and they say, well, nobody cares. So there's just all these barriers to intimacy. And I think one of the biggest barriers for some avoiding clients is volunteering information and trusted spaces. - And I think like trust is the biggest one. It's like trust is such a, like at his core, attachment is a wound of trust. Like I don't trust that you'll stick around. If I can be my unconditional self. And therefore I will be a conditional self. And it's like, there's something else you're saying. I kind of feel like the reason they don't say things is not because they're sure that if they say something people will leave, it's that they're not sure. Like they don't know, like in any society, like there are rules of like you can exist within this scope of behavior. You can sneeze, but don't poop in public. Like, you know what I mean? But for someone with a void in attachment, they don't know what those defined lines are. So they just kind of pick most behaviors that are even close to vulnerable. Anything that's even revealing a little bit of themselves that might be inconvenienced to others, they're like, you know what? Better not. And because they don't know where the line is, they just overestimate the line and miss the mark completely. - That's actually a good point. It's not worth the gamble in their eyes. Vulnerability is not worth the gamble. And I think that's another big piece with a void in attachment. So I guess we're kind of going into detail. A void in clients might like this, the structure piece because they're like, wait, where's the steps to heal myself? And I think part of growing through a void in attachment is being more comfortable with the gray area and all that. But anyways, I toss that in the middle of structure. So with a void in attachment, like if you were to give like a caricature or an idea of what that looks like, how would you describe it? - That's so weird that you asked that. I swear right before you started asking that, I was playing a game ahead of like what character in a show? - Yeah. - Would be, okay, as I just said that. - I think of one too. - Go ahead. - I thought of one. Barney from how I met your mother. Have you seen how I met my mother? - I've seen some clips. - Barney, the guy with the suit. - I don't know. - Anyway, God, you're so annoying. (laughing) I bet Leo has seen how I met your mother. - Oh, I know, yeah, it's a problem. - No, probably not. He's shaking his head now. - I thought you were talking about my best friend Leo, back in the movie. (laughing) - Oh, yeah, I don't even know if he nails movies so well. - No, this is a TV show. It's like a fake, it's like a knockoff friends, but it's also good. - Okay, cool. - I know what are friends. - Friends? - No, I'm sure. - I know friends. But this is a guy that has a really hard time committing and his origin story was he was very committed to this girl that broke his heart. And because of that, he kind of just sleeps with women and never kind of becomes vulnerable enough to be close with them. And then he ends up being vulnerable with Robin, who's like this character in the show. And they should have ended up together with the show was poorly written at the end. But regardless, it's this guy who tries to be vulnerable and feels like every time he is, it ends in disaster. And I think that's a good example. But that wasn't your question? - No, that was. - Oh, okay, okay. - Yeah, no, that's good. I like that. - Name a character from a TV show. I would like for you to try, 'cause that's gonna be much harder for you. (laughing) Or a movie, I'll give you anything. - This will be a very difficult task for someone who had an avoid an attachment. Stepping into a question that you have no idea where your brain's gonna go, but you'll just see what happens. - I have no idea where we're, I didn't even know what we're talking about today until you told me that. (laughing) - Wow, I would say, man, this is gonna sound pathetic, but I'm thinking about like frozen. - The ice queen Elsa. - Yeah, she's, I actually haven't seen it, but I haven't seen it either. I couldn't, okay, can I just, quick aside. I heard it was great. I'm not a big fan of Disney like movies, but so I start watching it. And in 10 minutes in, there's the scene where she's locked up and they're like, oh, no one can talk to her because blank. And I was like, that's not possible. And also if people could talk to her the movie would just never happen, like the plot would never happen. So I just couldn't get past that point. So I just stopped watching it. - There you go, cool. Didn't like it. - I would say maybe I'll think about something along the way, but something that might be helpful for people who are trying to figure out avoid an attachment might be. I like to think about like polls of regulation. Like where do you find your ability to regulate? With anxious attachment is through the expressions of other people. So like I said on air, if you were like frowning at me and you had, and I had anxious attachment, I would probably really panic in this moment because I would think, wow, I need to get this approval from this external sort of source so that my internal self can regulate. But with avoid an attachment, it's just the opposite. You don't like to be influenced without having that person pass like a check of trust. So most of your information comes more internal. And so if you were making a funny face or something, you would think, well, maybe they have to go to the bathroom or they just, I don't know, have to use, they're just weird. So with avoid an attachment, you find your identity in yourself which is a good thing. And yet you restrict external influence a little bit too often, I think, to keep you from merging more so with the people around you. So I think part of working through avoid an attachment is merging with your groups with a little bit less selectivity. And then the other piece that I think about when it comes to avoid an attachment is that independence. It feels like you can regulate once you are dealing with a conflict by being alone. Versus the opposite, what anxious attachment is, is you regulate through communication and talking. But those are some other thoughts. So if like, I'm just spippling, but so if like the one of the root beliefs of someone with anxious attachment is, I can't, I need other people in order to survive. Then the root belief of someone with avoid an attachment is, I can't rely on other people in order to survive. Yeah, I think so 100%. Because with avoid an attachment, that's the wound of the child. That if I express my wants and needs out loud, I won't be met with benefits. And a lot of kids in that strange situation I mentioned at the beginning, usually they would be able to find through survey or whatever that the parents probably weren't too consistent in meeting that kids needs. So of course, that becomes the core belief that if I show my vulnerabilities, then the force external to me won't bring about good. And that's usually one of the, on top of minimization, one of the common most common cognitive distortions I've seen when people with avoid an attachment is personalization, which is, if I am not in control, then negative things will come to me. If I am in control, then that's the most likely predicament that good things will come my way. And so healing avoid an attachment with a lot of the clients that work with us for them to come to terms with the fact that, well, hey, it's possible that once you're not the biggest part of the equation and life is happening to you, that could actually be a very positive experience. And in fact, you could be robbing yourself from that experience on so many occasions. - Yeah, I mean, I feel like one of the most profound things I ever heard was from this non-dual teacher named Gongaji, if you look her up, you'll find her. She wears, she says, she's like, let the whole world break your heart. Like you can either live in a state of permanent broken hardness by protecting yourself from that, or by accepting that you completely open yourself up to every experience possible. So like if you're an avoidantly attached person, it's kind of, you're kind of selecting yourself out of your heart being broken, but that is its own state of broken hardness. It's just one you prefer. And I think the deep down, like, people don't really understand, it's so obvious to us how attachment is real. You know, attachment is more real than generalized anxiety disorder. It's more real than social anxiety disorder. It's more real because it's rooted directly in our survival as organisms. You know, like we are completely, completely dependent on this thing for us to survive when we're infants. And because of that, it completely distorts our perception of reality. Like we are not, we are not evolutionarily created to see reality as it is. We're evolutionarily created to survive. And so our reality is gonna be warped in the direction of survival. So if that means looking at someone who is, does not have your best interest and is abusing you as the superhero in your life, because that's what keeps you and survives, gets what allows you to stay in survival, and you're gonna do that. And so the root of attachment is inherently based on survival, but on another level, like you were saying, like you can have trust without predictability. Like if every time we hung out half the time I didn't show up, you would, every time you're waiting for me, you wouldn't trust that show up because it's not predictable anymore, right? And so if a parent is unable to show up for their child in a predictable way, immediately your trust is destroyed, because you don't expect that when you're in distress, someone is going to come and save you. And-- which attachment you are, it's just your way of figuring, is your way of mediating that disparity? - Yeah, no, speech over. - No, that was so good. - Like, you are dependent on leaning on this authority that you have no power over as a child, as an infant. And so you literally are solely dependent. And if that force, that you can't even really label at that age, it's like happening unconsciously. Like you can't sit there and analyze like, well, hey, I'm gonna assume that this is not true of the rest of the world. This is just my mom, or this is just my dad. You have to, your mind, because you don't have the software to do that, like you'll see, you automatically make that happen. And so now, whatever force was thrown at you as a child, is now the force that you deeply unconsciously assume is coming towards you in other aspects of life as an adult. And no matter how hard you try, you're gonna feel that unless you do a whole lot of work and get a lot more corrective experiences. So I just love the way you put that, 'cause it's, yeah, it goes all the way back to that childhood wound. - And on top of that, you're kind of getting it just now. It's like, there are assumptions we make without realizing we're making them. Like, for instance, when you have one father, right? And you're four. You're not going, my father's like this. You're going, "Father's like this." Like, "All fathers are like this." This is what they are. And because we can't make that distinction of, no, just this one is like this. Just this one has a problem with alcohol. Because we can't understand that. That also has an impact on our view of fathers in general and our views of ourself. - Yeah. - You know, we're always gonna feel, you know, it's normal to feel anxious when dad comes home at 10 p.m. and he smells of that smell. Like, of course, you think that because you don't have a comparison. - Exactly, exactly. And that's all way into stuck points, which for people that are watching are these if-then statements about the world that we assume to be true. And so like, I love that you said that because in session, usually what I'll say is, is if something feels like reality and it felt weird to even question it, that's probably one of your deeper core beliefs. Like, wait, fire is hot sometimes? Like, no, fire is always hot. And then you do the same thing with some attachment stuff. So wait a minute, conflict can be good. Being a burden can be good. Like, I guess this sort of steps into like, really deep inner healing work that I'll do a avoid an attachment. But if you have avoid an attachment, you might believe that being a burden is always bad. So part of healing avoid an attachment is coming to terms with sometimes being a burden can be good. And while that feels wrong, it's really true because two things literally can't be in relationship unless they start to lean on each other. And so when I'm talking about healing avoid an attachment with clients, I say, well, you have to start being a burden in relationship. You have to practice that. And at first, it's going to feel weird. And one of the reasons it feels weird is because all of your past experiences have said otherwise. And also, here's a problem like a cyclical maladaptive pattern that happens with avoid an attachment. Usually what you'll do is you'll suppress your needs a whole lot so that you're not a burden. Because as a child, you needed to do that. But now as an adult, you suppress your problems so long that they start to turn into a bigger burden over time. Because as psychologists, we know that when you suppress an emotion, it festers. It gets bigger and bigger. So what happens if you have avoid an attachment, you're afraid of being a burden and you suppress your emotions over and over and over again, well, over time, they start to build up. And now they start to leak out. And then they explode on your community. And then you look at your therapist and say, see, I told you negative emotions were bad. And you say, no, the reason that these emotions were a burden to your community was because you suppressed them for a long time and they built up. Ideally, to heal avoid an attachment, you express the sadness and the moments of weakness proactively so that now your community both has an ability to read your emotions better and time to respond to them in a good way. And also, it sucks to have your emotions blow up like that, like a volcano. So of course, when you let them out early, people can make it more of a positive experience. I told you, yeah, that's perfectly said. And what you're saying, too, is like the beliefs that these people have, it-- part of what keeps people with a void in attachment. So I feel like people with a void in attachment. Actually, this is I really feel this way. You fucking people. Now, people with a void in attachment, one of the biggest things that keeps them from growth is actually the idea of what growth looks like. Like their image of growth, like for instance, expressing emotions. Their image of that, if they can't have an image where they're expressing it in a way that's productive and healthy, then they're going to come to you and go, see I exploded in the room and everyone got upset with me. I told you that this is a bad idea. And it's like, no, you don't have the proper idea of what it looks like. And therefore, you're going to be doing it in a maladaptive way. So I think a lot of work, especially with clients, especially with clients who generally just feel stuck. I'm like, okay, let's do an experiment. You're stuck in this way. Why don't you picture what psychological growth looks like? Like what do you, and why don't you picture what's keeping you from that growth? Okay, so the image you have in your head of what growth looks like. Maybe that's the problem. Like what if you got rid of that image? - I like that exercise a lot. That's a good, because it helps you identify as that therapist where they're stuck kind of in their thinking. - Yeah. - And I even realize, you might not even know the thing that way. - Like, can you think of like an example of someone with the void attachment? Like, okay, let's start backwards. Give me a core belief of someone with the void attachment that usually work on. If I don't minimize my concerns, then they'll overtake me. - Okay. - If I don't minimize my problems, then I'll be dramatic and things will just get worse. - Okay, so if I don't minimize, so if I minimize my problems, I keep people close. And I keep the conflict down, that's the belief, right? And so if that's the thing, so what might that person view as the enlightened state, growth version from that? - Ooh, like someone like a knight with armor that is, like they're invincible to anything. - Uh-huh. - Nothing gets them down. They hold up the weight of the world. And that's often the thing that keeps people stuck is they have this idealistic view of, of, oh, well, if I can attain this, if I, someone with anger, if I can attain calmness, it's like, why? Like, why is this the image you have in your head? And no wonder you never get there, 'cause it's not attainable, you know? Like, what's the less sexy, less fun, actual reality version that could improve your life? It's probably something that your ego is not dangling in front of you like a carrot and stick, you know? - Yeah, yeah. And that's something that's such, so beautifully said, but because of that idea of who they need to be in order to exist in relationships, a lot of people with avoid an attachment don't exist in relationships at all. They feel like, well, if I'm not perfectly polished and have all of my stuff together, I can't exist in community with other people. So now they carry the weight of the world with both hands and they think, well, I have to make sure that my community can exist and feel like they can have fun. And I'll take the back seat because I don't wanna, I don't wanna be unpredictable and playful. So as they're holding up the world, they don't realize that they never peep their head over and exist with their friends and family. And it's because they feel like the only thing that's worth existing is what I can contribute as this night or as Superman. And what they don't realize is that the world is more wonderful when they're in it and unprepared because as they are, it's like the gift that they can give people is not just what they can contribute in terms of the stability of their world. But more so, your kid just wants to play with you and have fun even if you're not fully prepared. Or your friends and family just want you around even if you're kind of down in the dumps. You don't have to be in a positive head space or have money to exist in a romantic relationship all the time. - They have an idea in their head of what it's supposed to look like and they're like, well, I can't get there. So I'm just gonna do this instead. It's like, what if there's a third option? I feel like you really are right about that. Like, I have to be perfect. I have to be perfect in order to exist in relationships. It's like, I feel like when I do therapy, my reactions to that is like, I just don't buy it. Like, I don't even, I don't buy you believe that. I feel like that's just what you say to protect yourself from the deeper truth, which is if I were to not restrict myself, if I were to actually be myself, it would be too much for others. And I think, and so this is, I wanna talk about this too. So beliefs inherently are untrue by the very definition of what a belief is. Like, let me give you an example. Like, let's say you have a belief that, God is literally a gray-haired man in the sky, like literally. Let's say you have that belief and I start. kind of testing that belief. Or let me give you a different example. If I said you're a giraffe, would you start arguing with me or would you just go, you know, that's stupid. I just go grab some trees or something. I would, I would, I would just be like, that's ridiculous. Yeah, you would laugh. It'd be stupid. But if I said something a little bit closer to the chest, I always use this example. So it's not really about you. If anything, it's me projecting. But if I said something like, you're not as smart as you think you are, right? All of a sudden, it's like, oh, yeah, it's closer to who you think you're, it's closer to what you think might actually be true of you, like your identity. Like, oh, wait, no, you're pulling it away at something that I think is not true. So, so one could argue that we get more insecure when we have beliefs that we don't fully believe as much. Wow. When, when, when we have a, and actually the belief itself, the stronger the belief, the more we don't believe it, you know, the more we defend ourselves, the more we think we need defending. Wow, that's deep. But my, my point is, is like, if someone says to me, like, I have to be perfect, it's like, like, you know, I, I just can't even buy you believe that even on this level. Right. You're, you're, you have to be a giraffe. No, it's like, it's like, that's just so far removed from like, how could you believe that? It's, I hear what you're saying. Yeah. And so I just think that when people get particularly defensive, it's, it's because deep down they know they're, they're kind of defending a house of cards that can end any moments fall down. And then the real question is, why do you need to believe that being perfect is the only way you can maintain relationships? Like, why is that so important for you to cling to? That would be the, I think the major question I'd ask someone who has a point in attachment. Yeah. Wow. And I wonder what the answer might be. I mean, as listeners, it's not that it's true. I need it to be true because insert, I don't know. Yeah. Like, what would they say emotionally? Like, what would their emotional believe be? Because if it's not true, I, I needed to be true because if it's not true, then it's my fault. Or I don't really know. I don't fucking know. Yeah. Let's get an poignant attachment in here. Yeah. We're both interested in that. Yeah. I feel like a lot of avoidantly attached clients will say different things about that. Like, someone will say, well, it's because I won't get the job I want. Or someone will say, well, then that will make me not a good person. Okay. So, so then the, okay. So then this goes to I need to be perfect because that's the way I can control my environment. So what's the reality? The reality is you're grappling with the fact that you have a misunderstanding of what you can and cannot control. And if you could actually work towards aligning that into a more true depiction of reality, like I can control this, I can't control that. I can control who I'm vulnerable with. I can't control how they respond to it. If you can get to a point where your perception of control is more accurate in reflection of reality, then I think you're avoid an attachment with start to go down. Yeah. And I would even add that your assumption about what pleasure and suffering will come from needs to be challenged to because it's like one, you could say, well, I want to make sure I get an accurate label of how much control I have. But on top of that, too, it's this feeling of like, well, there's this sort of automatic feeling of who are the good guys in the bad guys in terms of control versus non-control. Like anytime I'm driving to the gym and fit athletic, I get really angry. I don't like Padres fans at all because they're always blocking me from driving through the gate. And so it's like, if I were going to a baseball game, I would love to Padres people. But because of my repeated experiences of Padres blocking progress to gym, now I associate the colors of black and yellow and orange or whatever as my enemy. Brown and yellow. Brown and yellow. Thank you. Yeah, I don't even care about your own colors. But with a void attachment is the same thing. Early on, lack of control became associated with Padres. And control became associated with speedily getting to the gym, taking two analogies together. I love that. I think this is what it feels like to be a kind of mind. I'm like, where is he going? Oh, yeah, you want them to be lost? Yeah, the appellate. Yeah, you're really good at that. I'm like, what's going on? I feel like I was pulling a video right then. That's so funny. No, but I get what you're saying. Go ahead. Yeah, something else I think that is almost like a flip of this. And I think a void in clients do this a whole lot. But to heal a void in attachment, you have to start, you have to stop pretending like you don't care about stuff. Like you have to stop pretending like you don't care about your deepest dreams. Because with a void in attachment, a lot of people, they will look at reality and they'll look at it very realistically. Like, hey, I want to have this job. I want to have this body type. I want to look this way. I want this kind of relationship. What the avoidant person can do is is they can look at those things and think, well, wait, is this really realistic? And if it's not, then they'll say, well, I don't even care about this anymore. So I think there's an avoidant urge. There's an avoidant urge to put things down that you think you can't achieve by minimizing the importance of it. Because that would imply that you're the problem in the equation that if I can't achieve this, then it's my fault. And that's something that the avoidant person doesn't like. They like to externalize problems. So healing avoidant attachment can look like like, no, let's revisit that. Let's journal about all the dreams and things that you wish you could achieve. But because there's something lacking in you and some way, or you're assuming that there's something lacking, you don't want to look at it. So healing avoidant attachment can look like looking at it in the face and expressing just out loud like how you actually feel. Because what happens oftentimes is you minimize it and you pretend and you play this game like you don't and then you sacrifice a part of yourself. So one of the greatest kind of stories of like accomplishment that one of my avoidant clients have obtained. I feel like I shouldn't be saying this. I'm like, what are you sure? No, no, I won't say that. I would say that a good thing that avoidant clients can achieve is coming to terms with like, hey, I want this. For whatever reason, I'm not getting it. And yet I'm able to vocalize that to the people that I care about me in my circle. He said so much. I feel like the the it's interesting as you're talking, the thing that released it out to me was I go back to the the word inhibition, right? Like avoidant avoidant people inhibit their emotional expression. Like so if you think about like the analogy of a car, right? The car is like your emotions and you're the driver. I feel like the way an anxiously attached person regulates relationships is almost by putting their foot on the gas of their emotions. It's like I'm almost going to like dramaticize and and and and exaggerate my emotional expression in order to kind of keep people close and be somewhat frantic and neurotic. Whereas the avoidant person is constantly and excessively putting their foot on the brakes. And so the car is going slower than maybe it should be going and what they're experiencing internally becomes very muddled. And it becomes so muddled that they start to lose sight of the fact that they're having emotional experiences too. And I think part of what's the scariest thing about avoidant attachment is when an anxiously attached person like criticizes them in a relationship like, hey, I don't think you care. I think there's a part of an avoidantly attached person that goes maybe I don't. Like I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling as much as I should be feeling. But the truth is is they only that's their experience because their relationship to their emotions has become so fraught that they don't have like they've almost numbs their if you have to think about like they are if it's such a weird thing we feel our emotions right. So so there's an us and there's an there's emotions and there's the feeling of it. It's kind of like hearing a song in your head who's hearing it who's singing it you know what I mean. So if we're feeling our emotions then the then the sense of feeling is almost like we're putting saran wrap around our hands we're avoidantly attached. We actually don't have full tactile experience with avoidant attachment because we put our foot on that brake so many times and so when someone accuses them of not caring they're like maybe I don't like I'm not really feeling what you think I should be feeling. Yeah no that's such a great point because they actually don't feel as much overtime and it's because of that habitual training of decreasing that awareness. So it's like while they maybe at one point we're in the driver's seat and it can go all the way back to when they were one years old literally then they could have felt it but now as an adult it's there's a part of them that might cognitively be saying playing downplaying it but there's also this very unconscious and habitual response that's like I actually don't think I care about dating or relationships or I actually feel like I can not care about someone so much even after we've been dating for a couple of months you know. They convince themselves of that but then just to speak to like the avoidantly attached person listening I know that you know that there is a part inside of you that is seeking something more and that's the part that existed prior to any attachment being put on to you you know the part of you that is in every human this natural drive towards connection. Because when you connect with someone else, you connect with yourself, and when you connect with yourself, you feel more part of life as opposed to an observer of it. You go from the experience or to the experience and because of your life's experience, because of what's happened to you, that feeling becomes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer, but if there's a part of you that still feels it's a little bit there, you should explore that. What you're not at that different than everyone else, it might feel like you are, you might have been criticized for being not enough, or not caring enough about other people, but that is a product of your conditioning. And I think a lot of times, part of why we will have a job forever, I say there's a lot of times, but part of why we will have a job forever is because we forget that things that have become conditioned into us start to feel really natural over time, and then we forget that they were conditioned into us at all. There was a time before we were potty trains. There was a time before we knew words, and yet we still existed. And so the most essential part of you is prior to this thing that you feel afflicts you and you can't get away from. - Wow. - Yeah. - Like you should look at them in the eye when you see it. Look at the camera. You avoid in person. - Fucking. - No, that's so good. And I mean, I would even add that a lot of people with avoidance attachment are depressed because at some point they stop chasing their dreams because chasing your dreams is an act of vulnerability. You have to first admit that the version of you that you are now has a lot of work to do to reach this dream. And so what a lot of people with avoidance attachment do is is they only seek out things that they feel are very familiar and that they've polished themselves to be able to receive. Like I can totally work this job because I've done this a million times and there's no unpredictability that's going to force me into a state of dependency, powerlessness, or feeling bad about my identity. But when it comes to your real dreams, you've learned from childhood that you don't want to reach out to it because you're afraid that your hand can't reach it by yourself. When in reality, reaching out for things and not being able to quite reach it is the perfect place to be sometimes because the people around you can see that and that's not weak. That brings people to your rescue and builds a community. So now, as you're healing your avoidance attachment, as you reach for things that are foreign to you that you desperately want, now without even asking a community is going to surround you and say, "Hey, I noticed you were reaching for this. Let me get that for you." And you're going to no longer be wondering why you're anxiously attached friends. They're just so happy and easily able to reach some of their dreams. And it's because now you've used your gift of preparation and you're tying it together with the gift of vulnerability and asking for help. So I would tell my avoidance, people out there don't stop chasing your dreams and stop pretending that you don't care about them and also realize that those dreams aren't what make up your identity. You are right. Your identity is precious. And that's where you start. And yet, don't let that rob you from running for things that you care about. You know, I said this, I think, on the other thing, but like when we talked about fearful attachment, I really related the way you described it for the first time ever. And my former self, and there's this movie called Into the Wilds, and there's this line that I really like where it's very simple. He's like, "If you want something in life, reach out and grab it." But there's something so profound about it. It's like the only thing that's keeping you from attaining things is your own perception of what you can attain. And of course, you know, if your self-worth is low, what you think you can attain is going to be lower than what is actually possible. But like you said, you know, there is a vulnerability in saying you care about stuff and I always gravitate towards people who really care about really niche things. Because they're not embarrassed of the fact that they're super into anime or super into needle point. Like it's so endearing because they're vulnerable about it. Yeah, because you're letting out this reaction to the world that gives the people the capacity to judge it. So you're like just like excited about this cool thing. And then you give people the ability to say, "What a loser. Why are you caring about this thing?" That's why I wore Eddie Jack. Jack's my old standard poodle. Eddie. 12 years ago he died. But that's why I wore Eddie's on my shirt. I mean, you know, I had a white standard poodle named Jack and I have a white standard poodle named Eddie. So you know. Wow. Character development. I didn't know about Jack. Oh yeah, no. So I had a white standard poodle named Jack. I loved him completely unconditionally. He died kind of suddenly when he was nine. And then my grandpa died like a week later, which is crazy. And then I like wanted a dog for like years. I just couldn't like get one. And then I finally got one, you know, two years ago. And it's like the best. But you're not going to-- I'm going to make a girl's reference in every episode. So just do go on your phone or something. But there's a character in girls named Jessa. And she is the perfect example of avoidant attachment because she's kind of like this manic pixie dream girl floating through life and not really ever applying herself. And there's this scene with Catherine Hahn where she's like, you know, you're going to keep finding yourself in this exact situation. If you don't care about something, like you need to actually care about something. And I know that's scary for you, but it's also important for your growth. And later on in the series, she ends up getting together-- which I thought was a good idea, which is a take that people don't agree with. She ends up getting together with this guy named Adam, who was dating someone else previously. And she really cares about him. And you can tell. They're like angry. They get pissed at each other. There's a lot of conflict. There isn't like this, I don't give a fuck about you attitude. And you can see the growth because they care. You can see the growth because there's passion. And it's not to say that a couple that argues is a healthy couple. But I think sometimes a couple that never argues that has never argued in their life is in a lot of ways it's a little bit of a red flag. Because you're either-- you don't care about each other enough, or you're too terrified to express frustration. And both are not healthy ways of relating to someone else. Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. With the void and attachment, you have to learn that conflict is necessary for strong, powerful, and healthy relationships. And I like the idea of thinking about passion and care. Because the things you care about most are worth fighting for, right? And if you don't have that expression of care and passion, people don't get to witness you in your element. And so like you said, a lot of people with a void and attachment are afraid to show people that they care about things. Because that can be used as ammunition against them. But if you never show that you care about something, then nobody gets to witness you moving towards something that you're actually passionate about. And that energy is the very reason why people like to watch speeches, movies. We like to show those one clips on YouTube of people that are passionate, like from the notebook, the movie reference. Like, what do you want? We like, we love that stuff. A part of us loves it. And it's because we get angry with people. And we're afraid in a relationship. And we get saddened relationships because there's this world that we're trying to bring them to. And that's why narcissism is so difficult to deal with. Because they pretend. I mean, you know, it's funny. An avoidantly attached person, their false persona is, I don't really care that much when they deep down do. An anxiously attached person, their false persona is, I care so much. When in reality, they don't care as much as they're presenting, but they presented that way just as a way to keep people closer. You know, I think part of why an anxiously attached person also fully doesn't understand the true nature of the relationships they have with people is because they don't allow themselves to even examine how they feel about it. On the off chance, they don't want to stay participating in it and they'll leave. Like their fear of venom is so strong that not only will they obscure your perception of the relationship, they'll obscure their own just to keep it status quo. Yeah. And it's so deeply wired that the anxious attached doesn't even realize that they do that. You know, they will feel like I desperately truly want this person this much, that much. I'll change everything for them. But they're actually falling for an illusion that is both external, but I'm newly kind of digesting this today, but it's also kind of internal. Like if you truly understood your internal working self, then you'd realize that part of you just wants this because you just want stability and safety in a relationship. You don't actually deeply care that much about the other person's approval because you simply care about the person, but you're responding out of fear for safety. And I actually hadn't thought about that. They don't know. It's not that they care, don't care. They obscure knowing. by being a little much. It's like, I don't wanna know. Knowing means that I might not actually, like I bet you, nine times at a 10, if you really gave an anxiously attached person truth serum, they will say, oh well, I actually, I just need to know that they're committed to me before I can decide if I'm committed to them. Like, I don't even have permission to look inward until I feel secure. It's like, well, that's kind of a little selfish. You know, you're kind of forcing the other person to settle into how they feel about the relationship just so you feel like you can figure it out yourself. That's not fair to them. - Yeah, wow. I've never thought about that way. - But I know there's a huge component of selfishness to it, but I never thought about that logical path. - Well, I think anxiously attached people, like if you ever, like, if you're in like a friend group and one of your friends is like dating someone new and that person's super, that new relationship, they're like really committed, like too quickly, they're really pushing your friend into being something more than they are. It's like, they're doing that for a reason. They're doing that 'cause it gives them comfort and they're doing that because they need to know that this person isn't gonna leave before they even start the process of thinking about how they feel about the situation. And that's ironically why I think a lot of anxiously attached people, the second they kind of bend someone into submission and that person's like, yes, I'm committed, is the second they go, you know what, I'm not sure about this. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've always thought about it as the people that the anxious person feels deeply interested in their sort of lulled by this false idea and they're constantly feeding themselves. This person is ultimately good and it's gonna make me feel pleasure. - Idealize them. - They're idealized. And it's so unconscious. And then also when they don't want someone it's because they're now finally chasing after them. Like, well, I'm so filled with shame that who would want to be with me unless they actually weren't really all that. And it all sort of happens sort of at this. But I also think that every anxiously attached person can be different. - Oh yeah, but flipping that back to avoid an attachment, I mean, with avoid an attachment, I think communication can be a huge issue because you're not actually, you skip all the small talk stuff. With avoid an attachment, you send like two word emails. You don't really say much nice things when you first go through the door when you see people or you don't, not all the time, but a lot of times. And I think it's because with avoid an attachment, you minimize the importance of the process. You're more so focused on the outcome. But I thought that was a really important and very practical way to start identifying, but then addressing avoid an attachment. I don't know if you had thoughts on that too. - Yeah, so just to further my thought to what you know, you're talking about. So like if an anxiously attached person almost obscures the true nature of the relationship both for themselves and the other person by being a little extra, right? And caring more than they actually care. Like presenting a level of caring that might not even be reflective of how they actually feel. Then an avoidantly attached person is going to try and impose a, I don't care. So you shouldn't care. Let's both lower this tide of caring together so that it's really low stakes and really low pressure. And let's both not care together. So it's like let's both be complicit in not caring. And then we can have a good relationship. And that's the fantasy. The fantasy is we can get to a point where we both don't care. And then we'll feel better. And it's a fantasy because like I was saying before, you have an idea in your head of how can I get to a point where I feel secure? Well, we both don't care. It's like no, that is the fantasy you have in how can we get to a point where we both feel secure. The reality is you both feel secure by being vulnerable, by saying and showing things about yourself and the other person doesn't leave. It's that simple and that difficult. Yeah, wow. Both ends, I truly follow you with that. It's control at the end of the day. Both anxious and avoidant. You're trying to get controlled through reassurance or you're trying to get controlled through, so the reassurance part, anxious. You're trying to get controlled through not caring. And I can just 100% see it so clearly when you say it that way. It's like you, now that both, like an avoidant person loves when you run into another avoidant person that sends one word of emails. Because like wow, this person also doesn't care. Oh wow, we're free from that load and that burden of all that. But really, ideally, like you said, you reach a point of vulnerability. And I think specifically for the avoidant type, when it comes to communication, you have to learn how to be more what you're afraid of, which is dramatic. Because now you feel like, well, there's this cringe thing that people do when they seek reassurance. And they seem to truly want to make a big thing out of something that's really small. But in reality, there's real things within that drama that allows you to connect to other people. And I think one of the avoidant flaws is that you don't realize that it's not too dramatic sometimes. And that you've overlearned what dramatic looks like. And now you're suppressing things that aren't dramatic. So I would say with communication, it's also important for the avoidant person to practice vulnerability by allowing that whole episode that happens in their mind to happen a little bit out loud. Or if you don't actually feel like the problems that you're experiencing are that big, make them bigger a little bit. Journal about it even if you don't like, figure till you make it a bit so that you can come in touch with these emotions that have become foreign over time. 100%. This reminds me of a scene from friends where Monica and Chandler have their first fight. And later on in the episode, Chandler's like, OK, so I'll grab my things and I'll take them back to my apartment. And she's like, what do you mean? And he's like, we're broken up, right? She's like, no, we're not. We don't break up because we had a single fight. That would mean that every relationship you've ever had, you break up after you have a single fight. And he's like, oh, no, that would happen to you before this. But it illustrates the-- in the mind of someone, if you're expressing true frustration, then you're expressing-- you're being vulnerable because you're telling someone, hey, something real in me is dissatisfied with the way this went. And I think you're playing a role in it. That's vulnerable itself, right? But if you do that and the person like Monica goes, that's fine. We're going to figure this out. All of a sudden, something clicks in your brain. You're like, oh, I can show parts of myself of this person and they're not going to leave. Conflict doesn't have to be negative. It was just such a beautiful example of both the false belief people with a void in attachment have and the way you rectify it. This person's not going to leave. That chills because that gives you the opportunity for that person to prove that if you leak out anything that you feel you automatically judged, the relationship is still standing. And I think this is also a good-- oh, wow. This is also a really good topic, too, but we could finish up with this conflict with avoidant attachment in relationships. That's just so perfectly said. If you have avoidant attachment in your relationship with someone, setting boundaries feels like second nature to you because you feel like you can't exist in a tainted state. You feel like every relationship has to be organic. When in reality, there can be friction. And in fact, friction is required for two things to become one in a sense. So with avoidant attachment, you avoid conflict at all costs, which prevents you from ever having a rare relationship with someone. And so that's why whenever with avoidant attachment, you get close to them. They start to fade away. They're good at the beginning, but towards the middle and the end, they slowly start to fade away because they have this core belief that if I have a strong disagreement with someone and I blow up or they blow up, then the whole relationship is tainted. When really, that's the bridge. That's the friction. That's the cost. That's the vulnerability that once in your childhood led to pain, but now when your adulthood can lead to pleasure. So let conflict happen. Stop idealizing boundaries like pop psychology says sometimes and realize that some boundaries are good. Set them with people that are hurting you, but try to be a little bit more loose and selective, ideally with a therapist to figure out where you can let some of those boundaries down and stop associating distance with safety all the time. That's the perfect end. That's a perfect end. Can we say that's ending, but I have a question for you. Yeah. What do you mean, or organic? Everything has to be organic, because that's interesting, but I've never had that thought. I've seen this kind of tendency with a lot of people, especially avoidant people, that there's this feeling, like if I have to ask for it, I don't want it. Like if somebody, if I have a partner, I'm looking for the right ideal partner, I want to be like this perfect system that runs into this perfect system and we just sort of navigate the world. I don't want to have to have a conflict to teach my husband how to do the dishes the right way that I like them. And how does that tie to an attachment? So asking for a friend. Yeah. This resonates with me. Oh yeah. So avoid an attachment is this, almost this vulnerability in relationships. Like you feel like-- So that's just inherently vulnerable. I think, let me rephrase, let me share. Something that's organic is complete. like passively happening to you, whereas if you're actively participating in making something happen, it feels less real to you. - Well, I would say it's like almost like the feeling of having your hands slapped away. Like it's like, let's say you're in relationship with someone, if they naturally knew what I wanted and could give it to me, then now I don't have to ask for it. But now that I know that your natural tendency is to not do that, now I have to try to ask you to become something that you're not. And so on one level, and I'm thinking about this as I'm saying now or now, 'cause there's a second part that I already think about. But the first part is, it's the identity piece. It's like the avoidant person has the core belief, like I am who I am and who I need to be. If somebody asked me to change, then that's not right. If I do the same thing to someone else, that's not fair. So that's kind of newly popping in my mind as I'm talking about. - That's awesome. - But the second piece I would say is, is yes, the slapping away of the hand of like, oh, now I have to reach and extend myself to this person. So like, please do this for me and become this is not natural or organic, versus if it's with someone more natural or organic. It's probably like, cool, like we're just, we're just two self-operating systems that work perfectly. I'm Sony and you're, whatever. - And that's the image of that keeps you from the growth. - Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I ended there. I have to pee anyway. That was so good though. I really resonate with me at the end. Okay, really? - I'm gonna go pee real quick. - All right. - I think I'm gonna make it. - Oh yeah, that's bad. Well, I'll go out a session, P. Where are you really just like our best up? So we're gonna cut that one in a second.