‘He’s pulled off a socialist coup!’: Jacob Rees-Mogg on Burnham’s far Left move

We are with Jacob Rees-Mogg at the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham. We're going to be discussing Jacob Rees-Mogg versus Tucker Carlson. Can we reunite the right and is Zionism racism? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey. Me, Tim Stanley. And me, Jacob Rees-Mogg. What happened is we lost three elections in a row, 97, 01 and 05. And we lost sight of what we really believed in, which is the small state, the individual being in control of his or her life, lowering taxes. I'm being gaslit into thinking that I and my family don't really exist. It's just a figment of my imagination that we're English. I do not want people to be here and carry on being foreign. Did Jacob out-Mogg Tucker Carlson? I think we know the answer. You're very kind. That's why it's such a pleasure to be on The Daily Tea. We're joined here today by a beautiful audience of young Conservatives. At heart, at heart. And for this Tory conference, I just want to establish what we're all really doing here. I'm holding here a copy of Kemi Badenoch's new book, The Right Way. If last year's Tory conference, has anyone actually read it? It's not very long, and the sentences are short, and it's very clear. I approve. It's a model of writing. And if last year was about introducing Kemi Badenoch the person, this year is about introducing Kemi Badenoch's philosophy to the country. And as it's been explained to us, this is partly an electoral strategy. Her model is Margaret Thatcher. Not that she's. She's copying her policies. But rather, she's going back to that period after the 1974 election when the Tories were in the doldrums. And the way in which they dug themselves out of a hole was to begin by establishing what their philosophy was. But as I say, that's not just about winning votes. It's also so that if the Tories enter government at the next election, or the one after that, or in a hundred years' time, they will enter it with red lines. Kemi's argument is that one reason why we got the Boris wave, one reason why we made mistakes on taxes, or maybe we locked down a bit too long, was because the Tories hadn't established in their mind what they really stand for. So when we met with party bigwigs last night, we very politely discussed the right way. But what many of the journalists wanted to talk about is what does it mean to be English? I don't know where this question is coming from or why we're talking about it. Suella Braverman. Suella Braverman. But suddenly, everyone wants to talk about ethnicity. And for that reason, I think that next to Kemi, we've got the most important and interesting person with us at this conference. Yes. Described as the most interesting person at last night's Conhome party. I should point out, after the party leader had left, just to tick that box. Jacob, the right way is needed because for a long time, the Tories were following the wrong path, weren't they? Yes, that's absolutely true. What happened is we lost three elections. In a row, '97, '01, and '05. And the hierarchy of the Conservative Party came to the conclusion that it could only win if it embraced Blairism. And so you get all this stuff about sharing the proceeds of growth, hug a husky, and that approach to governing to get us into office. And we lost sight of what we really believed in, which is the small state, the individual being in control of his or her life, lowering taxes, allowing the economy to flourish. And particularly in the coalition years, we adopted policies that weren't that dissimilar. Of course, we have the Lib Dems with us from what Labour would have done. Bear in mind, we get in in 2010, and we carry on with the implementation of the Equality Act, which has had endless difficult complications for government since, and the functioning of government and decision-making in government. And we didn't make a case for why, the soft left structures that had been put in place, so what am I thinking of? I'm thinking of the Human Rights Act, I'm thinking of the Equality Act, the Climate Change Act, the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act, all tied us in with slightly left-wing defaults. And we didn't challenge them, and we then didn't, once we left the European Union, make the most of the opportunities that we've got by getting rid of European Union law. And there are a number of reasons, there are a number of reasons for this. Initially, we're in coalition, then we have a small majority, then we're taken up with Brexit, then we're taken up with COVID, and so things don't happen. But also, I've never been much of a Green. I've never really bought into the Green analysis. But in 2010, the whole country was in fact Green because they thought it was free. And people have only become un-Green when they realised there was a price to pay. So yes, we fought, we fought, we fought, we fought, we failed, but partly because we were going with where the nation was at the time, and if we'd started saying don't be Green in 2010 or in 2019, we'd have cost ourselves votes without anybody thinking, oh yes, they're right, because it still seemed free. So only as we've got closer to some of the deadlines, the initial deadlines, and then the subsequent deadlines, and we realised that our electricity is four times that of the United States, that people have started saying, well, this is all nonsense. - We had Liz Truss in the studio. Liz was in the studio last week. And she actually made quite a compelling case for Britain's problems having been caused by Brown and Blair, and that that is the legacy that the Conservatives now need to unpick. Obviously she tried that, and it didn't go particularly well for her. We've now got this Andy Burnham analysis, which is we actually need to unpick Thatcherism. Is it too simplistic to say that this is now a battle between right and left, those who want to go back to the 1980s, and those who want to go back to the 1970s? - Well, I think it's very interesting that Andy Burnham, by his complaints about the last 40 years of government, he's not very good at maths, 'cause he actually means the last 50 years of government, but we'll brush over that. He has made talking about Thatcher a relevant thing to do again. We have been doing it in party conferences, I confess, for many, many years, but it's been quite a sentimental thing to do, hasn't it? We refer back to Margaret Thatcher, and you think, for heaven's sake, we've got to move on from that. But now, he has brought her back to the forefront of politics, and it's a battle between ideas of the right and of the left. Andy Burnham has had a socialist coup, that he has taken the reins of power with not so much the Bayou League from the wider electorate, he's promised things to the base of Makerfield on Europe, which he has then U-turned from within a few weeks, and he has grasped power, moved far to the left of the last Labour manifesto, and we are now responding in kind by saying, well, actually, we've got to move on. All this has been tried and failed. What works is conservatism. What was it Margaret Thatcher said? The facts of life are conservative. And her other great line, the problem with socialism is ultimately run out of other people's money. Both of those things remain true, and therefore, this is a much more fundamental conversation than we had between, say, Blair and Cameron, when we were all within the same blobish consensus. Now, one consequence of institutions, of constitutional failure, both Labour and the Tory, is that left and right have fractured. And we've seen the consequences in the Greens, which we'll come back to with their motion about Zionism is racism, but there's also been a fallout on the right, embodied by Tucker Carlson and the podcasting right. Now, for those who don't know, Tucker Carlson was a Fox News host. He left that channel. He went independent on Twitter. He is huge. He's probably the world's biggest political podcaster. And he's an example of someone who's been detached from the discipline of intellectual conservatism. And in taking an anti-war America first stance, he has followed it to its logical, or it's a kind of an Alice in Wonderland logical basis all the way through to stay out of all war, Ukraine is a waste of time, Israel controls everything, et cetera, et cetera. Now, he latched onto a video which you had recorded, in which you were arguing, I thought quite sensibly that for a country to stay safe and to maintain the peace, it must be strong. And that means it must have people who are ready and willing to fight and die for their country. He saw this and ridiculed it, but at the time he was ridiculing it, he was actually contacting you and asking if he could interview you. Is that so? - Yeah, that's all completely accurate. Yes, you sent me the ridicule, but I didn't watch it because I thought my conversation with him would be better if it hadn't been colored by knowing that he thought I was a complete idiot. - Yes. - But in his-- - Many people think that, by the way, but I try to avoid it. - But I think this is important because in the interview, he is very aggressive and abrasive, but he wasn't like that in person, was he? - Oh, no, in person he's very charming and seems perfectly sensible. I do have a theory about this. I think, Camilla, you were just asking everybody to become members. And you can become members of my YouTube channel too, as you want. But once we're into this business of getting members and clicks and revenues, you're always thinking about how do I do a video that does better than the one I did last and you've got to be very disciplined not to become increasingly outlandish because the more outlandish you are the more clicks you get but then the less seriously you are taken and I think Tucker Carlson who was a perfectly serious commentator has been sort of absorbed by his own vortex that he now says increasingly foolishly controversial things to get a reaction to get his millions of clicks he will have made a fortune out of the interview I did with him because on every social media it social medium it has gone like hotcakes viral I don't like being called a virus so I try to avoid the term viral and this every click will have made him money and so from his point of view this is quite a success at least financially but it makes him look ridiculous I bumped into you just before you did it on a train yes and I I warned you be careful because I know how he works because I do watch him I find him utterly compelling and when the trailer landed as they say I thought oh no this has gone disastrously because the trailer is composed of the one or two clips in which Tucker is laughing and looks as though he's scored a good point but when you watch the whole thing and everyone really should however much money it makes Tucker uh it's it's really instructive because he puts forward so many bad faith arguments and you shoot them down either by asking a much better question or with facts such as his claim uh that you Britain cannot fight Russia because Russia has an economy that's very much larger than Britain's when in fact the Russian economy is about two-thirds of the UK economy the the Russia is a failed state it's dangerous because it's a failed state with nuclear weapons and a large population to whom it has given arms that's a that's a very high risk but you challenge that by being strong and by having your own defenses not by being bullied by it what was going through your head when he said to you that it wouldn't have made much difference if Hitler had won the second world war at least Britain's would be speaking a European language well I thought it was a fundamentally silly point that there is a morality in politics that there is a morality in politics that has sometimes to override things and look we could have a discussion here about whether the first world war was sensible to fight or whether the Napoleonic war was right to fight but there is no question in my mind that the second world war was right to fight because it was good against evil and you may then go back to the Versailles treaty and say well we were too aggressive that doesn't excuse the subsequent behavior and the same is true in my view of the apologists for Putin who say well NATO did this and the EU did that and America interfered in Ukrainian elections none of this matters once you invade sovereign territory because there is one absolute of making any sense of international affairs and that is if sovereign nations are not going to be frivolously invaded and we should learn that too because the second Iraq war was a frivolous invasion of a sovereign country and had disastrous consequences from which we are still suffering so it's not just a rule for the Russians it's a rule for us too that invading sovereign territory simply puts you outside the bounds of normal international behavior let me ask two questions from the audience on Tucker Carlson the first one is from anonymous did Jacob outmock Tucker Carlson I think we know the answer I think he underestimated you I think he thought oh well here's this British toff who's acting like he's the kind of spawn of Montgomery he's a warmonger he's not going to be able to make the cogent arguments and actually you just appeared much much cleverer than Carlson I think well you're very kind that's why it's such a pleasure to be on the daily tea um and the second question I think is a pertinent one and it's from bar one who asks after your recent clash with ethno-nationalists including Tucker Carlson why do you think this new right is gaining so much ground particularly from a political point of view as a political point of view why do you think this new right is gaining so much ground particularly among young people is it a temporary reaction to political failure or a deeper shift away from the traditional conservatism and I think also there's a need there to reflect on Rupert Lowe's restore there I'm very worried about ethno-nationalism because I think it's a polite way of saying racism and I think that's a very unpleasant uh emergence in British public life which we haven't had before but I think it is a response to a failure of government and a long-standing failure of government you see two things and they're definitely related you see ethno-nationalism and you see young men expressing their masculinity and I think you get both of these because the state has been saying for some time that if you are a white young man you don't get a free hotel when you've arrived in a boat that positive discrimination must act against you so MI6 MI5 the Bank of England have internship schemes that can only be applied for by ethnic minorities I mean I think there's outrageous racism I think it's unforgivable this happens I represented a constituency with some very very poor but invariably white people living in it and they're excluded from all of this and I think this type of positive discrimination has created a feeling of being a second-class citizen for others and they're reflecting that and they've got an anger about it and they see illegal immigration and nothing being done about it and they see the rules that are designed to stop them getting ahead as they see it and they're angry and this can come out in unpleasant ways and the answer is not to become an ethno-nationalist but is to say we must have a very simple law in terms of equalities which is that everybody is equal under the law full stop no equality act none of the other bells and whistles just a really simple basic English constitutional principle and I say English not to upset my Scottish friends but you can trace it back to the English constitution before we became a union now but having said that let me put the counter case to you because some of the online right are angry with you personally not just because of what you said about the importance of fighting for one's country but because of a video that came out before it in which you argued that the English do not exist as an ethnicity and what they said was you're telling us on the one hand we don't exist and then on the other hand we must be willing to die for the state but I think that's the tension you've got to explain to those young people they don't exist but they must die for the country that doesn't exist first of all it's for the country a lot of people get confused and think it's dying for the current government now nobody would want to die for the current government but I'm not sure many people wanted to die for Asquith you know it's never for the current government it is for this country this great country of ours but it is not an ethnic issue it is a nationality issue and you see how ridiculous the people who are having go at me are when they suddenly say that being English means actually being broadly European but these are all the people who fought like the billio for brexit so they 10 years ago thought that being European was something we wanted to be disassociated with and now they say well if you're European you can be English but if you're non-European you can't be and they draw a line as to which bits of Europe that you're included if you're if you're English and I think Suella Braverman has said that it's five generations to be English okay well on that basis I am not English now if I'm not English I think there aren't many people who are I am definitely definitely English on my father's father's father's father's side we've been mouldering about in Somerset for hundreds of years and been a nice place to moulder away but my grandmother was American my father's mother my mother's father was Welsh you know it becomes a ridiculous narrowness Englishness and this is another point I've made is used by the English anyway to mean united kingdomish the English and this may be an intolerable arrogance use England to mean the whole of the UK and I know it upsets our Scottish wealth and Irish friends but we do yeah and so to try and say there's Britishness because you've got a passport and then Englishness this is not how the English have used the word English throughout their history because we're what 83 percent of the population of the United Kingdom we think being English and being British is a synonymous thing so there is a point that they have that they're not British they're not British they're not British they're not British which is that to be English you want to want to be English so if you come here and you get a British passport and you want to be English I think it is open to you if you're born here and you want to be English wherever your parents came from it is open to you and we should encourage that I do not want people to be here and carry on being foreign no and I don't like that element of multiculturalism I think it is a mistake and undermines the unity of the nation but being English can be both it can be both an ethnicity and a state of mind I mean someone wittily said it's actually a sexuality but I I just I mean to me I I my view on this is I don't care because I'm a Christian but uh and I therefore I think everyone's equal in the eyes of God and we're all made in the image of God and so it doesn't bother me one one way or the other but it does sound to me a little like when people say the English don't really exist because they've only been around for a thousand years to me it's treading into the territory of well gender is just a state of mind I just don't think one can deny the reality of we have been around for a long time we've not had a lot of immigration for a long time and if you cut us we are English I am English I just don't see what evidence there is for saying that against sex that people are either a man or a woman and they can't change it, that's it there is not a blood test that you can do or a colour test that you can do that shows that somebody is well there is a DNA test the DNA tests on all of us show that we are enormously more mixed I'm not saying it's the same scientifically my point is that we've gone through a period in which we have been gaslit gaslit into thinking that men and women don't really exist and this whole debate has sounded to me a little bit like I'm being gaslit into thinking that I and my family don't really exist it's just a figment of my imagination that we're English it's not I don't care about it but I am English gaslit is one of my banned terms for GB News because it's being used by everybody the whole time to say that I'm frightfully wet and people can't say something to me without me having a nervous breakdown because of it ban the use of the term gaslit right as a starter then nobody's saying that you're not English they're saying that other people can be English too but subject to conditionality that if you're you were saying more than that Jacob you were saying we don't really exist it's a figment of the imagination that we come from all over the place and you can't really talk about us being I was saying that we are a mongrel nation we are mixed as to who we are we are mixed in our bloodlines and it's so different I think you're almost buying into the gender argument because comparing it to Englishness you know what it is it's because we've had like 20 years of PC of being told what we can and can't say about other people perhaps quite rightly so and then when you start saying mongrel about my people there's a part of me that thinks hang on I thought this was the way we weren't supposed to talk about anyone and yet for some reason when it comes to the English I didn't even want to talk about this but it does start to irritate me we can tell you're irritated why can't the English be English? I'm English I am going to self-identify as English I was born in England albeit to Irish, Italian, Welsh grandparentage but I was born in Harpenden it's a very English town I wrote about it in Pride of Place in the newsletter this week ergo I'm English shall we move on to an issue of sovereignty in another country and that's Israel so you'll be familiar with the fact that the Green Party has approved a controversial motion defining Zionism as racism that's led to an anti-Semitic campaign that's led by the leader Zach Polanski who skipped the vote because he's busy campaigning in Holborn and St Pancras from being banned from entering Israel and critics labelling the Greens as "the first openly anti-Semitic party in the UK" now I must say I find this deeply troubling notwithstanding the fringy nutty nature of some of the Greens that come up with this but it was approved the Greens are not a cuddly friendly party that want to protect rural England they are a vicious anti-Semitic party of hard-left tendencies they are I suppose in a way the Corbynista side of the Labour Party and I think they are moving further left partly in relation to Burnham taking their previous left-wing position I hope that they go so far left they fall into complete irrelevance but they're going so far left they fall into complete irrelevance they are a really nasty and unpleasant party and the rise of anti-Semitism in this country is something that should worry us deeply because it's something that this country has not had in recent times and it seems to be becoming commonplace on the left and indeed if you take some followers of Tucker Carlson it's coming on the right as well and this is very bad for our society. I remember when we had a discussion before the 2019 general election and I was saying to you what were you hearing on the doorstep down in the room? to you what were you hearing on the doorstep down in northeast Somerset which isn't an area of the UK that is particularly associated with having a Jewish population and I remember vividly you saying to me that you were knocking on doors and people were saying I'm worried about Jeremy Corbyn and what he's saying about the Jews yes now since then we have had quite a large flirtation from Tories for the Greens because they think it's about cleaning up the rivers and the sea it now seems to be about from the river to the sea whatever that's problematic isn't it I mean I remember going to an event in Whittam Priti Patel invited me to and some of the councillors in Essex are saying that there was a threat from the right for reform and the left from the Greens and I mean that speaks into some of the polling for today for the Conservatives I mean there's still a lot more work to be done with these challenges left and right yes I think the Conservatives lose very few votes to the Greens I think if you look at the Herefordshire seat that the Greens won what happens is that the Conservatives lose very few votes to the Greens what happened there was that Labour and the Lib Dems voted Green to get the Greens in and the left would rather have had a anti-Semitic Green elected though I don't speak particularly of that MP who I know absolutely nothing about I don't want to libel I don't even know if it's a man or woman actually I don't want to libel that MP but they were happy to vote for the Green Party regardless because it stopped at Tory I think as people see more about the Greens you will find that they find it harder to get votes and they will find it harder to get votes and they will find it harder to get votes and the interesting thing to remember on the opinion polling is that the block of left-wing votes and the block of right-wing votes has remained remarkably consistent it's the division within the two blocks and Burnham is actually being quite successful at consolidating the left block and the Greens are making this easier for him by becoming nastier and nastier we have a question from Anonymous who says what benefit does Britain get from its continued support of Israel well I'd first of all say that it is the right thing to do and it is the only democracy in the Middle East it is a functioning prosperous democracy it is enormously helpful to us in terms of intelligence part of our intelligence network depends on on Mossad and there was a feeling quite rightly in my view after the war that something needed to be done to help the Jewish people after what had happened to them during the war so I think it's important to think it's morally right but I also think on a pragmatic basis uh the state of Israel is helpful to us we were discussing just beforehand that some people since your interview with Tucker Carlson have been uh resharing a leader that your father William Rees-Mogg wrote when he was editor of the Times after the Enoch Powell rivers of blood speech in which he said that it was an evil speech and I was wondering is this something that runs in your family a commitment to opposing racism um yes when my father wrote the article it was called racialism it's the word has slightly changed it's become racism I think we should bring back the word racialism um well I think there is right and wrong I think there was right and wrong in all sorts of of ways and one shouldn't be afraid to talk about it and there are certain things that are wrong and if you think they're wrong you should try and stop them and you can't compromise on it you you can't say that um we should have made peace with Hitler because it would have helped our GDP a little bit you know Munich was wrong because we were dealing with a man who was so dangerous so dishonest and so wicked it may have bought us a year to arm and yet that may be a justification for it but dealing with Hitler was wrong can we just talk about uniting the right because our colleague at the Telegraph Gordon Rayner has done quite a lot of reporting on Rupert Lowe's restore revealed that there are white supremacist neo-nazi supporting backers of his party makes it rather problematic that the conservatives decided to give him a seat on a select committee there'll be many conservatives in the room who may entertain the notion of a pact with reform when the time comes but certainly not with restore got an interesting question here from Ben who says how many times has Farage been in touch asking you to defect oh Nigel's never asked me to defect I see him day after day after day and I view Nigel as a friend um and I think that's a very good question and I think that's a very good question but he's never asked me to defect but you are acting as a kind of bridge aren't you between the conservatives and reform because you've got friends on both sides well yes but there are some in reform who um are less sympathetic than others let's put it that way but we have had the recent rather lunatic scenario of a by-election in Blackpool being won by Labour because restore polled at seven percent and cost reform the seat and Rupert Lowe's party celebrated this like it was a big deal and I think that's a big deal and I think that's a big deal and I think it was a great thing for reform to lose in Blackpool of all places and it go to Labour now that's probably a vignette of things to come what is the right going to do about this frankly abject madness I think as we get closer to an election we now have a real and clear and identifiable hard left opponent and when you look at the polls and you think the choice is to have five years of socialism that could potentially ruin the country or you could not vote restore but you could vote conservative surely the sensible thing to do is to vote conservative though what is the point of voting for rupert lowe it is it is the least effective type of protest vote that gets you the precise reverse of what you want i think because of the ethno-nationalism the conservatives can't possibly do a deal with restore i think they have put themselves beyond the pale of normal political discourse with that and failing to do anything about it all parties occasionally get people who are unsound but it's how they deal with it that matters the tory party's had these problems over the years not very often but it happens to them nigel farage has always been very careful to avoid this type of approach and these type of people and therefore i think reform is in a very different category from restore although as johnny asks jacob you want to reunite the right the right but reform uk wants to destroy the conservative party so are you being realistic it's like when you're in a position where you're in a position where you're in a position where you're when you ask the governor of the bank of england when you've got fixed exchange rates is he going to devalue the pound until the moment he does it he has to say he will never do it and the devaluing the pound would be a terrible thing to do the same is true of parties working together think back to nick clegg and david cameron in the garden in downing street in 2010 when nick was reminded that david cameron had said he was the biggest joke in political history parties have to argue their own case until they do some sort of deal if they do a deal because what's the ideal world the ideal world is that nigel stands up and says well actually i've been a tory all along and i'd like to rejoin the conservative party which he left in about 1990 and even maastricht i think so probably 1992 that may not happen and therefore you may have to evolve but obviously this distance from an election we want to be making our case and we are making it extremely well and we're not going to be making it extremely well and we're not going to be making it extremely well and we are putting forward conservative policies to attract people from reform to us and we then need to see how far that can go but clegg and cameron that was two different parties coming together whereas what's happened here is essentially one family has split in two and things have been said and done i noticed that in the very amusing tapestry which the conservatives have got up which is a parody of the bayo tapestry um there robert jenrik appears in it as a tiny tiny little man i think it's lovely life size and in it he's in it he's weeping and he's running away and you've got kemi triumphantly sweeping him out of the party recollections may vary my point is having been that rude to someone you can't possibly expect him ever to come back and deal with you as an equal uh no i wouldn't um i'm very worried about robert's economic policy which i think he has gone back to his cameroon ways and is advocating the sort of economic policy we had when david cameron was in charge where you keep the abr you don't cut inheritance tax what is the point of reform's economic policy it's basically rehashed left wingery so i'm not sure that he would make a great contribution to a conservative government and nigel farage remains a big figure and i think we should be polite about our political opponents haven't saying i'm endlessly polite about ed milliband i'm always polite about my political opponents because they're usually decent people trying to do their best whisper it quietly i actually rather like zia yusuf i'm barely any person in the country who does other perhaps than his mother but he's i think zia yusuf quite like zia yusuf possibly but i think he's an intelligent man who wants to do the right thing for the country but he's going about it in the wrong way we have a youtube member question from joanna oz 24 who says i would like to hear your thoughts on the migrant protests happening across the country and the possibility of civil war how can we find a solution to this problem we've got to leave the european convention on human rights we've got to pull out of the refugee convention but that doesn't solve the problem in and of itself that just gives you the ability to take steps that will solve the problem what do we have to do when people arrive illegally they must be removed from this country within 48 hours and once you do that the problem stops because people think that they won't be able to stay and they've paid thousands of pounds to get here where do you remove them to i don't really care you send them to rwanda you send them to el salvador you send them out of the country send them home that lots of them are not refugees the vast majority are not refugees in the sense you think of refugees they are economic migrants now i admire economic migrancy in and of itself that is a noble and conservative thing to want to better your life but if in so doing you break the immigration laws the united kingdom we have no obligation to keep you here you must stay in france or you must go back home and i it goes back to my question the question we were asking on ethno-nationalism and on um young men in this country and to the point of civil war i don't think we'll go to civil war fortunately but there is anger because people feel the politicians don't care and they're not doing anything about it and they pay lip service to it without taking the actions that are necessary to solve the problem the problem is eminently solvable as donald trump showed he has managed to stop illegal immigration into the united states by removing people do you know how many is removed i think 25 000 a tiny number but it's stopped people coming in we're going to go to questions i like this sartorial one shall i ask it on behalf of athena oh yes go on jacob silly question but how do you develop your fashion sense i think that was a question really for camilla who has an impeccable fashion sense i didn't really have a fashion sense i just wear the same sorts of suits my father used to wear and it sort of carries on like that indeed i've got one or two of his old suits that i wear from time to time so jacob reese mock everyone thank you very much thank you you you you