He Followed his Dead Son to Heaven

"What if death isn't the end, and what if someone still living could travel part of the way with you?" In 1981, Dr. Scott Taylor experienced a tragedy. His girlfriend passed away in an accident, and just a few days later, he watched his girlfriend's seven-year-old son die in a hospital. And at the moment that the boy's heart stopped, Scott says that he saw the child's deceased mother return, lift him from his body, and lead them both into a realm of overwhelming love and light. But Scott wasn't the only person in that room who experienced it. 15 years later, another family member independently described virtually the exact same journey. What happened? Well, today we explore shared death experiences, the three kinds of light that people report encountering in the afterlife, what happens during a life review, and the evidence suggesting that consciousness may exist beyond the brand. We also discuss reincarnation, hellish near-death experiences, remote viewing, and whether binaural beats can help ordinary people access altered states of consciousness. If you are interested in what may happen when we die, well, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Dr. Scott Taylor, how are you? Hi, I'm awesome. And thank you for the invitation because it's lovely being here, smelling the campfire, listening to all the little crickets in the background. Yeah, this this tent is amazing. I appreciate you saying that. We spent a long time building it out in the woods of upstate New York and we, you know, we had to block out the sounds of the crickets, you know, just so you know, it's a clear audio experience between us. That's true. Yeah, the audiences don't get him to behave. Yeah, exactly. It's a it's a lot of that's why I do so much mysticism here, you know what I mean? We've got to figure out how to control nature. Well done. Yeah, we work with the local natives too, and they're able to quiet them. They have some type of trick or something. I don't know exactly how it works. I'm very excited chat with you. There's a few things, I guess, in life that have kind of brought us together in a way, not only the invitation to come on, but we're supposed to speak in March of this year. And in that window, my sister passed away, and you were very kind and thoughtful to write me a note, which I really appreciated. But it was just strange kind of like doing research and prepping for our conversation and then having to cancel the conversation to then deal with the reality of the research I was doing and dealing with in real time. It was a bizarre thing. And in a way, even in kind of doing research and thinking about death, it was a helpful preparation. So thank you from from afar for for being there. And I'm sorry for your loss. I get from you that she was really a remarkable person the best. She's awesome. And so we'll chat about that in sort of that whole experience, which is a very strange thing to go to see someone die as bizarre. But your work is fascinating. Now to take us kind of through the arc here, you have a very remarkable experience that happened to you. A shared death experience. But before we jump to that, I just want to get everyone on board. What is a near death experience? Oh, a simple explanation of a near death experience is that the body has some sort of massive physical trauma. Car accident. Maybe it happens in childbirth or heart attack. Usually those are big causes. And the body dies. And when that happens, our non physical body, our consciousness leaves goes up into the non physical world, has some sort of an adventure. And then the wonderful people back here on earth, the EMTs with their paddles or the surgeons or whomever, they reanimate the body. The consciousness comes back into the body. And then the person who did that was able to tell about their adventures that they had in the non physical world. So in most cases, the body dies. And it's reanimated and people get to come back and talk about what it was like to be dead. Interesting. The first time I heard about this phenomenon, now I imagine a lot of kids that go to Christian school, like I was raised Catholic, went to a Presbyterian high school. And they would tell a story of people that die, go see Christ, and then return and tell the story. Or a bit more morbidly, stories of people that go and see hell. And then they return with the horrors and the tears of hell. And it's kind of just a part of like Christian lore. It's an interesting kind of sort of non canonical like Christian tale that's kind of told. And I imagine if there's someone watching that's Christian, they've maybe heard versions of this. And it's interesting because I'm curious how it like really maps onto like Christian theology, right? Like, is there space within Christian theology for this idea of like, yeah, you go to heaven and you hang out for a little bit and you talk to St. Peter and then all of a sudden he's like, hey, you're not going to believe this. Yeah. The folks on the ground, they went to go to schools, they brought you back. And you're going back to earth. And you're like, well, I just got here. What the hell? Well, it's embedded in the Christian story. You may remember most of the New Testament was written by Paul. And when Paul when he was called Saul, his Jewish name, when Saul was on the road to Damascus, he died. And went up in angels, talked to him and then he came back to his physical body. And then was able to tell people about his new understanding about how this world works and why love is important. And so it's right in in the story. Hey, real quick, most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed. And when you subscribe, you help the channel grow and you stay in the loop with every new drop, religion camp, history camp and camp gag on it. Now, let's get back to it. And in fact, one of the more amazing things that has happened recently in Christendom, St. John's University in Minnesota commissioned a calligraphy Bible. It's the first time that the Bible has been written in calligraphy in 500 years, sheepskin, the whole thing. Anyway, in that retelling of Saul turning into Paul, they say it right there in the margins. This is a near death experience. So as it's part of the Christian, certainly part of Catholicism. And this whole idea that we have a soul and that we have some place to go after we lose our physical body. I mean, that's been part of Christianity forever. Right. I mean, Lazarus. How about Jesus? He did the big event. Yeah. And and then you look around you and you go most religions or indigenous belief systems around the world believe that we are a non physical being that's having a physical experience that this idea that we go to some place afterwards is just imbued with their belief system. Right. And your experience is interesting because it's not a near death experience in the classical way. I mean, you are close to death. But the way that it interfaces with you is very unique. And I hadn't really heard someone share a story like this before. So could you take me through the entire thing that kind of sets you on this journey? Sure. I'd be glad to. It's 1981. And I'm in love with a woman. Her name is Mary Francis. And she and her son Nolan who had just turned seven had been sailing on beautiful Lake Washington and Southern Minnesota. And when they were coming home from a day of sailing, they were involved in this horrific car accident. And Mary Fran was killed outright. And Nolan had a severe head wound. And it would take him six days to make his transition. We were lucky. In that living in Southern Minnesota, we weren't that far away from Rochester. So both Mary Fran and Nolan were bundled up right away and and taken to the Mayo Health System where they received just superb care, but it wasn't to be. Now that six days becomes important because Mary Fran was one of nine children. Nolan was the eldest grandchild. And it allowed this big family to all converge on Rochester to hold vigil for Nolan. So I mean, it's well certainly brothers and sisters, but it's boyfriends and girlfriends and aunts and uncles and mom and dad and grandpa's and neighbors and good friends. There were a lot of people who had come. And that's just her side of the family. And then there's my family who was also there. Yeah, there were so many of us, I don't know, 50. Wow. Plus. I mean, you know, it's a big Catholic family. So we got to we got to be there and support Mary Fran and Nolan. And how old is Nolan? He just turned seven. Wow. So there were so many of us and we all wanted to to be with Nolan and and support him that we wound up having to draw straws because the hospital room was small. Here's filled with all kinds of monitoring equipment. And my straw was picked and I went in with Mary Fran's eldest sister, Janie, and we had the shift from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. on the morning of the sixth day. So the nurse on the floor had told us that it was a really good idea that we speak to Nolan. Excuse me, he was in a coma and as it turns out, he never came out of that coma, but she said it's important because the last sense to go is hearing. And even though he might not be able to respond to us, he certainly could hear us. So it's important that we tell him things. So we did. We went in and we had his favorite story book. We read his favorite story book, and oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Mark. We told him about his uncles who at midnight had gone throughout the Mayo Health System and they'd stolen all the cushions off of the couches that were in the other waiting rooms and brought them into this, the little one where we were and then, you know, spread them out on the floor. They just carpeted the floor and that way all these people had a comfortable place to sit or lie down. And it gets to be about quarter to five in the morning. And Janie, who was a trained emergency room nurse, she went to the end of the bed and looked at his chart and then looked at the monitors that were surrounding him. And she held her hand out to me and says, "God, it's important that we say goodbye now. It's time." So the two of us pulled chairs up to Nolan's head and we told him that we were so proud of him because he had fought so hard to stay with us in the physical world. You could just see it and that we would always keep him in our heart and that if his mother should come, I'm remembering Mary Fran had died in the car accident six days before. So if Mary Fran should come and ask him to go with her, that that would be the right thing to do, that if she asked, he should go with this mom. And we set our final gobyes. It's now five o'clock and we leave. Our shift is over and the next shift comes in. Well, it's about 45 minutes later and the nurse on the floor comes into the waiting room and flips on the light and rouses this great mass of folks and says his vital signs are dropping rather quickly now and that you should come in and be with him. So this whole gang gets up and files into into the room. And as it turns out, I was one of the very last people into the room. And when I got there, it was already four deep around the bed. And I just said, well, that's just silly. So I went over and I sat on the windowsill next to Mary Fran's brother, Willie, her youngest brother. And you know, there's not a lot to do when you're holding vigil in that state. You're just, I just sat there and just, you know, watched the heart monitor and it got slower and slower and eventually it flatlines. And when a flatline, what I experienced was Mary Fran coming across the veil and scooping Nolan up out of his physical body. And the reunion was exquisite. And it surprised me some because I was able to feel what they were feeling. You can only imagine what it was like because it's a reunion between a mother and her son. And then what surprised me even more was then the two of them turned to me, came over to me, they embraced me. And then the three of us left and went to the light. And everything that you've heard about the light is true. It's, it's like no experience that I ever had. It was this amazing, incredible love, compassion, ecstasy, joy. It's all about the reunion. It's, it really is beyond words. This kind of connection that you have with the universe and everything in it and none of it mattered because what mattered was that I was there in the light with Mary Fran and Nolan. And we had a chance to affirm our love and affection for each other. We had a chance to say goodbye. And we also had a chance just to be together for a while. And so we did that. And then at some point it just felt complete. And that was okay. Mary Fran and Nolan turned and went further into the light. And I went back to the window sill that's sitting next to Willie. So that's the first part of the, there's three parts of this thing. So should I pause for a second? No, no, I mean, I'm looming with questions, but I don't want to interrupt the flow. Okay. So the second part of this is that I'm sitting there on the window sill and then I'm taken up into the light with with Mary Fran and Nolan. And a hundred percent of my consciousness is there with Mary Fran and Nolan and what we're experiencing. And a hundred percent of my consciousness was also in the hospital room sitting on that window sill. And I say that very deliberately because it wasn't like my consciousness was split 50 50. I was fully there with Mary Fran and Nolan and I was fully in the hospital room with all the other grieving relatives. And I know this because it was like the divine love of the universe was inside my body and it was trying to break out of my break out of me. My my face had such an expression of joy and ecstasy and happiness that if anybody had looked at me at that moment, anybody else in the room they would have completely misunderstood. I mean, Mary Fran had died six days before and Nolan had just died moments before. And here I am with this this huge grin on my face. And so I did the only thing I could think up to do which was to cover my face with my hands and stay that way until that other part of me could come in and come back into my body and we're kind of joined together and then I could get myself together and and then you do what you do in a room full of grieving relatives you hug each other you cry in each other's shoulder and and just support each other because we all just lost a really lovely young boy. So the third part of that story is we have to flash forward about 15 years and I'm at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota which is Minnesota's largest private university. And I am getting my doctoral degree in educational leadership and I've decided to write my dissertation on near death experiences and how to people live with what they know the general question. So I'm looking for people to interview because this is going to be a qualitative research study. It's about how people make meaning from their experiences and I'm looking for people to interview and I'm frankly having a really hard time. I thought it was going to be easy. I just go to a hospice or I go to you know a floor where people are dying or whatever and ran into HIPAA. You know, and they were very kind, you know, nursing home and say, "We can't, we can't tell you that kind of thing because that's a personal medical record." And, and so the next thing I could think of was I got a hold of Mary Francisters. Each one of them had wound up being in the health-related field of some flavor or another and said, "This is my project. This is what I'm doing. And can you help me find people who have had near-death experiences?" Well, unbeknownst to me, Mary Francisters Lolli, who about five years before, about 10 years after the accident, she writes to me and says, "Scott, I, I had one. Do you want to interview me?" And I said, "Well, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we do the academic thing. We sit down. There's a tape recorder. I've got my notes and, you know, pre-prepared statements and questions. And we, and we go through her, her story and it's quite remarkable. It's lovely. And at the end of it, I'm wrapping things up. I'm doing my final notes and I'm putting away my tape recorder and this thought comes into my head, which was Lolli, something really unusual happened to me when Nolan made his transition. I wonder if anything happened to you. And her eyes just got biggest awesurs. Taking that as a yes, I quickly took out my tape recorder, punched record and said, "Okay, I'll tell you what. You tell me your experience first. Then I'll tell you mine and we'll compare notes. This is what she told me. She said, "Scott, I remember that moment like yesterday said you were sitting on the windowsill next to Lolli. On the other side of the room, I said, "Yep, that's right." And she says, "And I was standing bedside with Nolan." And when Nolan flatlined, what I experienced was Mary Fran coming across the veil, scooping Nolan up out of his physical body. The two of them had this exquisite reunion in which I was able to participate. And then they turned to me, me meaning Lolli. They turned to me, embraced me, and the three of us went to the light where we had a chance to affirm our love and affection for each other. We had a chance to say a proper goodbye, and we had a chance to be together. And then when it felt complete, I came back to my physical body standing next to the hospital bed. Market was like, I think there was like three words that were different than my experience. It was identical. And what happened in that instant was that if I had any lingering doubts about what this really unusual event was it real? Wasn't it real? Was I hallucinating? I mean, you know, there's some, 'cause it's so outside my experience, there was part of me that really wondered, "Uh-uh, now I'm more." With Lolli's story, all doubts just disappeared. They just vanished. They were so, no, that's not right. My experience was so affirmed. And the same thing happened for Lolli. In an instant, any questions that she had about her experience and whether or not it was real, gone. And so for the both of us, that was really healing. And it allowed us to say, "Huh, this is a normal experience." And we both got to participate in it. And so, that's now known as, what happened to me is known as a shared death experience because I didn't have anything wrong with me. I was no physical trauma. I was just able to go with them into the light. And because Lolli and I had the same experience, I just call it a shared shared death experience. Wow. I mean, it's remarkable. It's remarkable. I want to go back and ask about the whole sort of process and feeling some of the gaps. But just on this part, did you speak to anyone else that was in that room after you spoke with Lolli about their experiences? No, what happened? It was still rather tender for me and for Lolli. So I chose the safe way out, which was, I sent them a copy of my dissertation when I finished it and I graduated. The very, in that, in dissertations, they're a very specific format. But you can write a personal forward. So the forward was the story I just told you. So it's all laid out and I sent it to all of the parents and her siblings and said, "My story's in there. I'd love to hear it back from you." Crickets. Really? Yeah. I think I got placed on the weird side a little bit. But that's okay. But you and Lolli had this experience and you both kind of commiserated and I'm sure like really healed each other in a kind of strange way. Yeah. But no one else in the family came forward with any type of. Not a one. And even no negative feedback. They didn't say like, "Oh, this is absurd. There's just nothing. Just nothing." Even to this day. Yep. Bizarre. So going all the way back, your relationship with Mary Fran prior to her passing, how long were the two of you together? Six months. Wow. And certainly in that time, you and Nolan were close. Yes, we were, Mary Fran was very smart mother. We dated about three months-ish before we really were a couple. And then she said, "Okay. Now we can spend time with Nolan." She had, when she dated, she didn't do it in front of Nolan. Sure. The side story in that is that Mary Fran got pregnant her first year in college and the biological father ghosted her. He just disappeared, disavowed any knowledge of his actions and was never ever a part of their life. And as such, Mary Fran said, "You know, I want to be part of that fine." And so she never told Nolan about his biological father. And at seven years old, Nolan really wanted to have a dad because all the other kids in school had a dad. And so when I was introduced to Nolan, the bonding happened relatively quickly. He had a desire to have an adult male in his life that loved his mother. He had plenty of uncles, I mean, but that's not the same thing. And we, yeah, we were really getting to know each other well. And then the name was gone. Yeah, which I mean, unthinkably tragic, especially the timing of it all, right? Like, not that there's any great time for a tragic passing, but in particular, the fact that you were just introducing their lives. And it seemed like, "Okay, this is going somewhere." This is a very like serious relationship. And it's, you know, for everybody out there who's had, you know, a serious relationship, there's that euphoric first stage, you know, and then maybe later you have to work out stuff. Sure. And we were still on that first stage, of course. So it was, it was doubly tragic because the whole idea of what if it's just played so prominently and we hadn't had to really work through anything tough yet. So, you know, as you walk into the hospital room, as Nolan is passing, at that moment, what was your background in consciousness studies in understanding sort of, you know, the theory, fair question. Well, I was raised in a small town in Southern Minnesota and grew up in a traditional Presbyterian church. And well, let's just say that knowing when somebody cries. the veil and being able to communicate with them and being able to go with them, and none of that is in the lexicon of the Presbyterian Church. It just was never part of my thought process. I mean, I was a young man then, I was 27 years old, and I was in the process of learning the retail industry, departments, and specialty store sex or thing. And I had kind of a goal. I was a young man trying to make something of himself. So, that whole spiritual thing just wasn't really on the radar at all. Like maybe the casual church goership perhaps. Yeah, you know, I went to, like you did, I went to school, Sunday school when I was a kid. And, you know, you hear the stories. And yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's, it's a nice thing. They're nice, lovely stories, but they didn't become real. Right. Until they're real. Yeah. Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I need some crystals. Can you pass me a coffee? Thank you so. Oh, a dry brew. Even better. Guys, this is dry brew. This is an entire cup of coffee in one single tube. It's ready to eat. It's literally coffee that is ready to eat. You can almost think of it like space coffee. It is absolutely amazing. And my friend John actually started the company. And it's amazing. Truly, it's one of my fair products. And anytime I'm like doing a pot and I want a little hit of caffeine, I will just grab a dry brew. And I'll have it. And one, it tastes amazing. Salted caramel is my favorite flavor. And it's natural. And it's literally good for you. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, but instead of having to go spend eight dollars on a latte or something, I can just have a dry brew put in my backpack. And I have basically chewable coffee on me at all times. You guys should check it out. Go to dry brew calm. Check out coffee in a bite. Now let's get back to the show. So as you're sitting on the windowsill, watching Nolan transition, when you say that Mary Fran comes into the room and they reunite. My first thought, again, without knowing or experiencing something like this, I'm assuming like an apparition, like a like a ghost type thing. Like that's what my brain does is like, oh, like in the way I'm seeing you, now I'm seeing the sort of like semi translucent vaporized version of someone else. What is the actual material that is manifesting in that moment? That's a great question. I didn't talk to people for a long time about this experience because it's so hard to talk about it. And it took me a while to come up with a vocabulary for it. This is what it was really like as best I could describe it. When Mary Fran crossed the veil, she was this glowing orb of transparent energy. So it didn't have a physical, you know, I couldn't see her brown curly hair that big smile and none of that. It was just this this orb of energy that had a very specific energetic signature. I knew who that was. No question. None. Zip. That was Mary Fran coming across the veil. And when she scooped Nolan up out of his physical body, it was the same way. I mean, it was it was an energetic. There wasn't like an energy duplicate of the physical body. It is more like a blob, I guess. Is there a color? It was transparent. Could I say there was a thickening or a different density to the space? Absolutely. But no, there was no color. And were there two orbs? And then they became one? Well, let's just say they merged when they embraced. It was like the two of them merged. And you could, there was a Mary Fran signature and there was a Nolan signature. And they were and they were merged. And then when they came over to me, I merged. My energetic body merged with the three of them. That's how we could have our reunion. And then, you know, then the three of us left and went to the light. So interesting. I heard people describe similar things in very different settings. Like I had a friend of mine who we were speaking on a podcast similar to this. And he described doing a pass life aggression, which I'm sure very familiar with. If anyone doesn't know, it's basically a meditative, I don't want to say hypnotic, because I think that that lends itself to a different kind of connotation. But it's sort of this process of like guided meditation where you virtually see past versions of yourself through sort of a reincarnation framework of reality. And part of the past life was not going necessarily only to past lives, which he did do, but going to a cosmos as he described it and talking to his grandmother. And I asked him the same question. He described exactly what you said. He said, I didn't see my grandmother. I saw an energy orb. But I knew it was her. It's the same way, if I see my wife, I know it's my wife. But I just knew it. But I didn't see her. I just saw this energy orb. And we spoke. And it was telepathic. And I got closer. I said, goodbye. And I said, I'm sorry for all things I had done. And she apologized to me. And we had this moment of union and kind of like, you know, conciliation and everything was square. And then by the whole time while he's describing this meditative sort of act, he's fully aware that he's laying on a couch with his eyes closed. And at any moment, he could open his eyes. But displayed across the, you know, the eye of his consciousness, he's having this experience that it's in his mind's eye. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a bizarre, it's a bizarre thing to describe. And again, he was kind of in a loss of words. I think many people had experienced this type of, you know, experience are well glad you mentioned telepathic. Because that's another aspect of this that is is is difficult to describe because I think God didn't happen in English. Because you know, language takes and puts boundaries on concepts. That's what that's what words do, you know, so we can understand what's going on. However, in that context, when a married friend could say, I love you, it's, it's not, well, it is about the physical affection. It's about the emotional affection. It's about all of the history that we had, all the dates that we had and where we had and the hopefulness for the future. And it's about the sorrow of having to say goodbye and about the future that we would never have together. All of that comes across with, I love you. So it's a concept that is so big that it would take a book to write it out in English to try to get all the nuances from it. And yet, when it was spoken, it's ten years. He's just got it, get it all. And, you know, it's like with your friend, you know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to, you know, resolved. And, you know, all those kinds of unsettled, you know, issues, yeah, it's, it's a remarkable thing that we have, have that ability to communicate with such complexity and such nuance. I'm, I'm sorry, we're reduced to words. Yeah, what a shame, right? Yeah. So when you see these signatures of them, I'm very afraid of Nolan, are you conscious that everyone else in the room doesn't see it? Are you having any type of awareness? Like, does it matter at all? Not a thing, because, you know, here I am, this, this Presbyterian boy who doesn't understand any of this, what I do understand is that I had lost her six days before. And there she is again. And there's Nolan, and we, we can talk, talk, you know, but is there a part of you that wants to, you know, tap wheel in the shoulder and be like, not on the desire never came over or the I thought that that could ever even that it mattered. I was supremely focused on just the two of them because, I don't know, that's a good question because part of me was realizing that this is an event for, right? now and that we need to be focused. I mean, there's all kinds of other stuff going on too. I mean, I'm connected with all parts of the universe. I could know what's going on when future passed. I mean, all of that is out there in potential. I didn't care. It was Mary, friend, and Nolan, my heart's connection. And yeah, they were the most important thing in my life right then. And as we find out later for people who do, you know, serious meditation in this realm, it's about intent. When you're in that non-physical space, how you navigate that space is through intent and my intent was to be with them. Now, all of that just didn't make a difference. When you are now moving out of your physical body and going into this light, did you consent to do that? Like, was it your will to do that? Or did you feel like you kind of got pulled into this thing or is there a difference? That's a really good question. I would tell you that I was pulled and I was more than happy to go, right? Yeah, no. Can I throw a little academic at you? Yeah, please. Okay, so share death experiences. We know, now, many, many years later, that you can induce them. You can program them at a time. Goes like this. So my lovely brilliant, smart, funny wife and and I sat down and said, okay, if one of us goes, we like the other person to come along with to experience it. So let's just say that I go first and I make my transition. In the transition, there's a life review. And as you're going through your life review and and I have agreed that one of the seminal moments in our lives was when we met on the corner of 11th and this all in downtown Minneapolis. And when that meeting takes place in the life review, that's a trigger for me to go, oh yeah, I promised and that I would reach back and pull her to join me in in this in in my transition. That winds up being the key thing. So there's agreement that we're going to do this for each other. And what seems to be necessary is that there's a heart connection between the two people. There certainly is that that you're available, meaning that you aren't actively grieving. You aren't driving a car. You aren't engaged in, you know, something you're available for this event to take place. And here's the key part is that, excuse me, the person who's making their transition. Me, I reach back and I grab and it's an invitation. It's the only way it works. The person who's making their final transition has to do the invitation. And they pull and they pull them in. And having studied this long enough, I now know why because, you know, they're already vibrating. They're in the vibratory level of the afterlife. They're in the non-physical universe. So they, their consciousness is consistent with that energy vibration. And by coming and embracing me, remember we talked about that emergency thing, my energy level of my non-physical body matches theirs. It syncs with theirs and now I can go with them easily. So it's about the energy match, flipping around the other way. If I was in the hospital room and I went, oh, I really like to go with Maryfran and Nolan, I'd have to pick one. If I knew how to do it at all, enter into a meditative state, pick a vibratory level and hope it's the right one. It's plus your emotional and it's the likelihood of that happening that direction. Not so much. You're describing like it's a literal radio signal. Yeah. So they're vibrating at a certain level and by embracing me, merging with my energy field, it raises mine up and then now we can go and do be any place we want to be. Wow. The three of us. The availability part is fascinating. If my wife were to pass away and she's trying to get me in a playing video game, she would be pissed. She'd be like, really? You're supposed to be available and I'm like, look, I got like 20 minutes left on this recording. I got level 37 here. I'm almost there. This one's insanely important and also I'm playing online. My friends are on this whole thing. I mean, that is a fascinating caveat. But I mean, in this case, you're describing you virtually by locating. You're in two places. When you're on the windowsill, your physical body is still there. And your consciousness. And your consciousness somehow, but then also your consciousness is in this other place. And you're aware of both at the same time. Yes. I mean, it's difficult for me to do like more than one thing it wants. Like if we're talking right now and I'm texting, I'm kind of going back and forth like on a binary. But let me give you an idea about what it feels like. This is a blur example, but you're in a car and you're driving down the car. And you, you see the stop sign. There's cars to the right and left. There's a kid with a bicycle. I mean, you're driving the car and you're doing it safely and we're going down the road. And it's all good. You're paying attention. At the same time, you're on the way of the grocery store and you're thinking, milk, eggs, butter. And I got to go through the store this way. So you're thinking about your grocery list and your band attention to the car. So that's like an easy example. It's sharper and clearer the way I'm talking about it. But it's it's the same skill set. Right. And we can enhance that as human beings. We can go, oh, this is a natural part of us. Anyway, we can do this. When you take a look at the literature of the Eastern religions who've been dealing with this forever and ever, there was a guru in India whose name I can't pronounce. He could do six. Six separate consciousnesses at the same time. And I'm going, okay, advanced soul. He spent some time working on that. In my work at them in raw institute and the work that I do for the shift network, it's really common for people to have three. So, you know, I'm laying in the bed doing the meditation. I'm in the non physical universe tooling around. And I have an observer. I'm watching myself tool around and be in the bed. Whoa. And that's not uncommon. That happens actually quite frequently. So, like, okay, maybe six isn't such a big leap. I never tried it, but it intrigues me. You don't want to, you might break something. You're going to be careful. Right. Spraying your ankle or something. It could be tough. So, when you're in this place with Mary Fran and Nolan, you describe it as just like a white chasm. Again, where my brain goes is Hollywood and I'm picturing Harry Potter in the all-white train station kind of thing. We're like, you're walking in the vast void of brightness. So, I'm glad you brought that up because in near death, experiences, there are three colors of light that people engage with. So, what you're describing, the Harry Potter experience, you leave your physical body, you enter this world of white light or break gray, like what happens to him at King's Cross Station. Right. Look at you. Man, pull that one out of it. It's a pretty good long-term memory. And when people encounter the white light, it is a very powerful loving. It just encompasses you. And when that happens, when you go into the white light, you actually merge with the white light. And I know this because I've interviewed enough near death experiences that some of them, the very clever ones, as they entered into the white light and they're in God's love and they're embraced by this light, some of them turned around to see if they had a shadow. I wouldn't have thought of that, but they did. They did not, which meant that they had merged. They were one with the light. They were part of the light, which is, I think, a part of how we now view what happens to us after we die. So that's white light. The second one is black light. This doesn't happen. I got stats here somewhere. 60% of the experiences near death, near death, experiences have is with the white light. And that wasn't always the case. Actually, back in the early 70s, when they were doing the initial research, very little tunnels, for instance, and what's happened over time is that people have morphed their experience to match the culture. So anyway, second one is black light. Black light is, if you're a Genesis 2 fan, it says in there that before God invented light, there was this void, this blackness, where it was just God, was just source. And some people have that ability or had that experience of going back to source and being one with the divine. It is the most exquisite, wonderful experience that you can possibly imagine to be that to lose your sense of self. That is the place of the great I am. So there's no sense of other for a period of time. You just are. You're just being. There's no mother, there's no father, there's no sister, brother, whatever. You just are there with the divine. Is that experience different than the white light version outside of the obvious color, like the sensational kind of yeah. And in the white light, there's a sense of other I am me. This is this is God's love. And it's both I am me and I am part of this white light. So duality still. No, it's it's a unity experience because in duality it's either or you know, it's like I am me. I am not the light. But in the white light is I am me and I am the light. So you get both. In the black light experience, there's no both. There's only one thing. And that's the divine. This loving consciousness. And there is no sense of other until it's invited back in again. The third type of light that people encounter in a near death or shared death experience is what I had. It's called clear light. And if you if you and I were going to have a clear light experience right now, what happened is that this table would begin to exude its own light, its own energy. So with the microphone, so with this glass of water, so with your hat, the flags that whatever God, this sort of kind of looks like you got to try it in there. Anyway, all of it just exudes divine light. And what you begin to realize is that we are all everything in the physical universe is made up of that light, that loving consciousness that is the foundation of our universe. So the kind of light that I experienced was where the hospital room, it was like it went into another dimension where everything was now of this divine light. So yeah, it's still a table, but it's not just a table. It's true essence has been revealed. So that's the three different kinds of light. And I'm sorry, but I've got what the question was. No, that's the experience you had as the clear light. Thank you. That is glad you're keeping it. So now you have this experience. Yeah. You come back into your body, which you never really left. I guess you're fully like integrated back into your human kind of fleshy form. Yep. And you look around the room and your first thought is what? Comfort. The people who are grieving. Hmm. Did you feel complete in a way? Yep. I was, I was complete with Mary Frananon. We had that, that sense of closure. So that, that part was fine. It's what came after. That was rather remarkable. What do you mean? One of the after effects that people have in near death experience is what I got in spades, which was curiosity. Certainly. I knew, I knew, I knew that if I had been in that space once, I could do it again. I just had to figure out how. And, you know, I, if I could be with Mary Frananon again, and that would be a, that would be a wonderful thing. I mean, we had that, that moment, but now what? So I decided, I mean, I'm 27, I don't know anything. I'm, you know, this presbyterian thing. So I said, all right, the world is filled with sacred sites. My guess is that there's some magic juju that's at still at these sites that maybe will propel me into that space again. Okay. So I went to Stonehenge, the Oracle of Delphi, the Sphinx, the Great Pyramids, all those sacred sites along the Nile, I went to Machu Picchu, Yadayata, and you found the secrets. What I, what I had was a whole series of great vacations. It didn't get me anywhere really. I mean, I had some interesting experiences, but it wasn't anything close to getting me back into that space and connecting again with Mary Frananon. That was the motivation is to connect again with them or to be in the beauty and the awe of the oneness in the mind. There's no difference. It's, it's woven. It's all woven together. That's who they are at their core. It's who I am in my core. That took a while to figure out later. But no, I think it was really about Mary Frananon. Now, you're going on these trips. Yeah. It's not a cheap sort of situation. Are you explaining to people what you're doing or what your meditation is? You're just like, oh, no, I've always wanted to go to the exiled England. Yeah. I always wanted to go there and just completely keeping it to yourself. Sure. And what is the motivation to keep this to yourself? Well, I couldn't explain it. And I wasn't really sure that my community and my family would really understand what was going on. And I didn't have the words for it. So, next thing I did was I decided that I needed to maybe be more academic about this. So I went to seminary, the new seminary in New York, which is an inner faith seminary. So my family were rabbis and priests and shamans and all kinds of stuff. Wonderful experience. It wasn't about me becoming a religious person because I'm still invested in my retail career back in Minnesota. But what it did do was give me the perspectives of all of these other religions. And I now had a vocabulary to go and be able to start to talk about this thing. And then after that, I said, okay, we're really going after this. And I worked on my doctorate at the University of St. Thomas, fertilizing in how do people, well, what I came with was the experience of unity. That's what people, what changes people. And so I did, and then that was great for my head, but then I said, you know, really experiential is. what might hold the key. So I went and studied with the Emoto religion over in Japan. One of their tenences that art is the mother of religion, which means that when you are practicing art, you are connecting with the creative force that God used when creating all of the universe. That was fun. I studied with shamans in both North and South America. That was fun. I'm getting a little closer now. Then I was introduced to the Monroe Institute in Virginia, which their focuses was on how to achieve out-of-body experiences. But in the process of doing that, they taught me how to change my vibratory state. I kept changing it until I found Mary Brandon Nolan. I went, "Oh, that's how this works." Before we jump into the technicality, because that was fascinating, I need to know, was there ever a part of you that wanted to shut this down? You have this transcendent experience and you also have a budding business career. These two things are at odds with each other. If you are a prominent businessman in your area, and you're also like, "By the way, I've went to the other world, everyone's going to be like, "This guy's losing his mind." Was there a party that just wants to like, "Hey, let me just associate. This actually never happened. Let me just shut down this silo of my life." That's the way I didn't talk to anybody, because I keep both sides alive. You never want to shut out the other side. There's always a curiosity and openness to try to figure out what happened. Shortly after I figured out how Monroe did what they did, how their system works, I said, "I want me more of that." I became a facilitator for them for 35 years. I taught classes at the Monroe Institute on my time off. I was there two to six times a year depending upon which job I had. Can we indulge the skeptic really quick? Because I don't think any question that myself or the person that's watching, that's a little bit on the fence about this whole story, I don't think that there's any question that they're wondering that you haven't probably been asked. I'm sure there's probably not a question you haven't asked yourself. I'm sure after this happened, you said, "Actually, you asked me a question that I had never been asked before. Well, now we're in unfurled waters being pulled." Did I go there? Was I pulled? Right. You're the first. I hope the next line of questioning is not going to be the first time. I guess the first thought that I'm assuming, the first skeptical part of me that thinks is, "Okay, well, you're in a state of immense grief." You have this true emotional bond with this woman who dies tragically. Her son, who you also have an emotional bond with, is passing in mere moments. You are emotionally broken. Psychologically, I'm sure a mess. I understand grief to some degree. It's a difficult place to be. You kind of feel like you're not fully tethered to reality in some sense. You're sleeping at odd hours. You're sleep deprived in some ways. Maybe you're not eating perfectly. Is there a line of questioning that you brought by yourself to say, "Okay, well, maybe this was a delusion of my mind due to all of these co-founding factors?" Oh, no. Not ever. Really? Did I wonder? Sure. But I had absolute faith in the experience of self. It was real. It happened. I communicated with them. It was extraordinary. I wanted to do it again. The part that is about keeping quiet, we talked about, it's ineffable. We don't have English words that even approach what happened. But the experience itself, sometimes I get ulterior when I talk about this, because the emotion of it is this profound grief. At the same time, I have touched divinity. I have touched the love of God by being in that space. These, for me, those two emotions are interwoven. Whenever I think about this experience, there is this horrible, wonderful nature to it both, and I can't separate them. Maybe my life was kind of like that too. I just couldn't separate that from who I had become. At times, we had the largest department store in town. It's 250,000 square feet. It's a big store, and for a lot of years, I was either the vice president or the president of that store. That's a responsible business person. You have to be part of the community, and you have to be part. I have 406 employees. It's a big operation. I need to be on my game to do that, and in the off hours, I will indulge myself in trying to touch that space again, and try to understand what that's all about, why it works the way it does. How does this can you go back, and even if you can't go back, does it make any sense to? I mean, you know, that kind of questions. But that's an internal dialogue. It's not so much something that I share. Did it ever frustrate you that there was, it was difficult to test these things prior to learning about the Monroe Institute and learning sort of the concepts and the techniques. Was it ever difficult? I mean, considering especially you have a doctorate, right? Like you're a learned person that's learning rigorous institutional academic structure for how to know things, and how things can even become known. Was there an element that's like, man, if only I could just look at this on a slide. If I could just get a microscope, or if I could test, like, how do I prove that what happened to me isn't delusional, or it wasn't some type of coping mechanism my brain giving me this closure that I so badly wanted? Yep. Well, in the world of qualitative research, you know, people talk about stories or just anecdotes, right? But when you have hundreds of stories, and they all are talking about the same thing, that's called data. And that was my first refuge was to read about what other people had experienced and what was like my experience and what wasn't. And, you know, kind of wrestle with that. And every once in a while, I would meet folks. And then I got involved with the International Association for Nair Death Studies and started attending their conferences. And there I met, I mean, talk about a target rich environment, half the people who were there had had an experience, you know, and just grab them. Yeah. Tell me what happened to you. And the scientific papers that mostly came out of the University of Virginia and the books that you can read all pointed in the same direction. It was, it was really clear what had happened. And then in 1991, so this is 10 years after my experience. And there was a article in the Lancet by Dr. Pim van Lommel, who proved in my mind that consciousness is not a product of the brain and it does not reside within the brain. And then that study became a book in 1996 called Life Beyond Consciousness. And it is the seminal work that puts us clearly in the camp of we are spiritual bodies who are inhabiting this physical body for just a while. And then off we go and we can go back to our home in the non-physical universe. And his quickly, what the study was about was he's a cardiologist in the Netherlands and he did this in 10 hospitals in Amsterdam. And when somebody would come into the emergency room with complaining of chest pains, you know, the first thing they do is put all these monitors on you, some people would arrest while they're wearing monitors, and some of those would have a near-death experience. He asked a very interesting question when people arrest, you know, it's seconds and you lose consciousness, and when they came back, he asked them, "So, do you have any memories of when you were unconscious?" I love the question. So yeah, it turned out that like 19 percent of the people who were arrested in the emergency room had a near-death experience, and they were very capable of describing conversations that were in the ER. They were capable of moving around the room so they could describe what was going on with various pieces of equipment. They could leave the ER and go down the hall and see their crying relatives, and see that Uncle Ben was buying a Hershey's candy bar, and he's not supposed to beat in chocolate because Mary is going to get after his butt. Anyway, there's all of this evidence that was then verified after the fact, meaning they went down to Uncle Ben and said, "Did you get a candy bar?" The candy bar out of the machine, right? And were you looking at Life magazine, that old raggedy copy, and when you were putting the catheter in, did it take you three times, that kind of stuff. In this whole time, the person who's on the gurney, they are out. They have no brainwaves, they are flat-line, nothing's happening. According to modern science, they cannot make memory. It's impossible for them to make memory if they are flat-line. But when they came back, corroborating stories, they had stories to tell, and they were corroborated. Because it's one thing to say, "Oh, I had this experience with a relative that also passed now, united with them," or something like that, but again, it's difficult to corroborate that, right? Because, okay, we have dimethyl trip to meeting your brain and you pass away, and it's released, so maybe you had that experience, then we'll shock you back, and you come back, so there's a skepticism and a deniability that sort of shrouds it. But the second you're able to say, "I lifted off the ground, and I saw you go to the phone and you called a nurse, and you said this, or her name was Betty, and that's fascinating." And then to take it even a step further, like outside of the immediate area, the non-locality to say, "Oh, I actually saw something in a separate room, that no one really saw, except for the people in that room," and then corroborating that data. I mean, to me, that's compelling, and then all of that gets compiled into one study that then gets published by the Lanzo, which is obviously extremely revered. Yeah, it's a big deal, kind of journal. So then you read this and you go, "Oh, that's interesting." Now, the locality of consciousness, I think, is an important element of this for people that aren't, like, you know, briefed on consciousness studies. I guess that also kind of lends to the next question, right? Like, let's say, I'm under the assumption that you're not lying about this experience, right? I think that part is fairly clear. Let's say we've ruled out that there's some type of delusional element, that there's a grief plus trauma plus coping mechanism. It leads to this third thing, like, okay, fine, let's say you did actually have this experience and it was a true spiritual experience for your consciousness, was outside of your body, but also in your body at the same time, why does that matter? No. Why is that important? Like, why does that rewrite what we understand about reality? Well, first off, it says quite directly that we do not die, that we exist after physical death, that we have the capability to leave our physical bodies and enter into that dead space because there was Mary Fran, and she'd been dead for six days, and there's Nolan who's making his transition to me. I'm just hanging around, so yeah, it makes a difference. It also, you know, I get too many thoughts going on in my head at once. One of the things that that means is that we can really let go of the terrors that are surrounding death. We actually know now, I mean, there are 10,000 studies at least, I'm sorry, experiencers that are in verified databases that you can do keyword searches on and things. We know what happens, what's likely to happen, and so when people have this fear of death, we can talk to them about what it's going to be like and how you go through it and what kind of help you're going to have, and so imagine what this world would be like if all these people just let go of the fear of death and go, I can truly live right now. I can be here right now for you and me and my family and know that I am loved unconditionally. Unconditionally, what a change in our culture. Have you read it in Ernest Becker's work? I have not. Ernest wrote a wonderful, it's quite long, it's a bit of a tum, but it's called denial of death, I believe. Again, he doesn't come from it from a consciousness perspective, but more of a cultural kind of anthropological perspective where he makes the case that if you actually fact check the title on that, he makes the case that all human kinds, sort of like ambitions are an attempt to defeat death. All things that we do, all the wars that we start, all the art that we make, all the monuments that we erect, all the progeny we create, is sort of feeble attempt to outlive our earthly form and that the overlooming sort of terror that imbues all human kind about the fact that we will no longer inhabit this plane compels us to do all things. It's an interesting case and there's many other elements and commentaries around it, but I do think that there's a lot of truth to what he's saying in the sense that there's many great things that come out of this desire to defeat death, having children, perhaps in an evolutionary way as an element of that and I think having kids is wonderful, but there's also many negative things, there's conquest and business ruthlessness and the desire to create a name that will echo through the eons that I was here and how much pain and despair does that bring. The subtext to that is scarcity. There's a limited amount of resources, there's a limit amount of women to procreate with, I need to have more money or whatever that there's this element of scarcity and when you go on the other side, they go, "Well, no, that's not how this world was designed to work." You just added that because you wanted to and so there is a cultural shift that's happening that this is about abundance, that if you approach life like there's abundant life, I mean how many lives do you want to have, pick it, you want a thousand, you want a fifteen, whatever, yeah, pick them. You can do that and that the universe, one of the things we know about how this universe is creative is a reactive universe, meaning that the universe is relatively neutral in terms of its ability to manifest for you and by placing, by putting out something negative, it's exactly what you get back. You put out kindness and love and that's exactly what you get back and it's that knowing that, not understanding it like you have a church, yeah, I get it, I read the book but really the golden rule, that's what it is, it's telling us very directly what you put out is what you get back and that changes everything, it changes everything about how we relate to each other, how we organize ourselves, ourselves as culture and as family, yeah, it changes everything. There's back in the late 1800s there was a split in Protestantism, I'm not sure I was saying that correctly, but in the 1870s something, it was called the New Thought Movement. up until then in Christianity, it was you are born of original sin. In 1870-ish, there was a whole group of churches that said, "We don't believe that anymore. That is not true. Instead, we are born of original blessing." And when you believe that you are born of original blessing, it changes everything. And so wars, the bad business people, all those things that you just mentioned, if you are born of original blessing, why? I had a wonderful woman that I interviewed for as part of my research. And she was telling me about what she learned on the other side. And she said, "Scott, what this is is that we are a part of everything." She's describing Unity, this idea that we are connected with everything, that we get to be us and we are part of the universe as a total. And she said, "If I were to reach out and slap you across the face," she said, "literally, what I am doing is slapping myself across the face. And why would I do that? And why are we organized? Why have we organized our culture that way when it's not true? We can't. We really are one with the divine that we have this ability to be, to recognize our sacred nature and to be ourselves at the same time." So, there's just, I think that's where this thing starts. Okay, I have another thing for you. This one you can do for fun. It's all about the impact that near death experiences has had on our culture. And I thought this up one day and I tried it out. Do you remember Rocky and Bullwinkle? Sure. Okay. Moose. Yeah. And in Rocky and Bullwinkle, there was this talking dog who's a genius named Mr. Peabody and he and his adopted son Sherman would go into the wayback machine and have adventures. So, it turns out that the internet has a wayback machine and you can go there and pick a date say 20 years ago and you can type in images of death. And what you'll get is the Grim Reaper faceless in that dark robe with the holding a sigh. Death is portrayed as capricious and lonely and us. You cut down the sigh. We'll cut you down in the prime of life or you know, maybe unmasse in a disease or by age. It's a very foreboding lonely experience. And when you were cut down, you were, you know, you go down into the darkness and there you don't know what happens. Maybe it's terror, maybe it's torture, but it's not a good thing. Okay. That's 20 years ago. Do that same thing today? Yes. So, we'll be a couple of Grim Reapers. It's blown up. And what you'll will also get is the light at the end of the tunnel. That is the new image of death that is out there. And in that image, okay, I feel like Google heard us a little bit. These are a little ominous. Get rid of those. So, the new image of death, the light at the end of the tunnel, it's upward. It's you're going into light, not darkness. You're going from fear to love. You're going from alone to meeting your dead family, having a reunion, being guided by divine beings, having a chance to meet and hang out with a divine. It's wonderful. It's positive. And in the space of a generation, or maybe a little more, that has changed who we think of ourselves. To your point, even Harry Potter had a near death experience. And it was a positive one. He got to hang out with a dead relative. You know, Dumbledore was there. And he explained to him how things work in the physical world. And he could check it out when he got back. So, it's a remarkable thing when people begin to view death as just this transition into something wonderful as opposed to not knowing and it being lonely and capricious. So does your framework, as you understand it now, is it a reincarnation framework? Oh, sure. So there's a separation from our physical self to reunite with sort of this universal consciousness. And then some type of restart. Yes. But I have to say that with a qualifier goes like this. In this world, this physical world of duality that we inhabit, we live in a world of linear time. And when we move into the non-physical world, there is no time. All time exists now. So that traditional sense or that philosophy about reincarnation, where you have a life and you screw up and then you have to go back and do it, fix your karma, and then you screw up some more. And you just have to keep repeating because you were in perfect beings and we keep screwing up. That is in the way it works. We get to pick the lessons that we want to learn. And we organize our lives, these lives that we will have in the physical and they all occur simultaneously. We enter into all of them at once. And when we die, we all of them die and come back into the into the non-physical universe. That's really important that we begin to realize that all of these lives are being lived simultaneously. And it helps explain all kinds of things about Dejavu. But more importantly, as the veil starts to thin and as we learn how to thin the veil ourselves by learning to change your vibratory rate, we can begin to talk to those other lives. Those other lives begin to inform us. It's one of the reasons we get wiser is we get older. Is that all of us is getting older at the same time and we get a chance to tap into that wisdom. Kind of cool, huh? Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to talk to you about getting old. I turn 30 this month. Yeah, it's sad. And my body is not responding the way that it used to. I could feel exhausted all day and then I get into bed and then now I'm suddenly wide awake. I'm not recovering as quickly. My motivation is kind of inconsistent. My gym habits are not as sharp as they were. And it felt like a bunch of unrelated problems. But the one thing that I can connect to all those issues is cortisol. It's my body stress hormone. And it's supposed to rise when I'm under pressure and then come back down. The problem is between work and podcast and stand up and answering emails and meetings and trying to raise a family and being a dad and staring at screens all day and doom scrolling. My stress response is constantly activated. And that's why I've been taking Mars men. You can hear this bottle is basically empty because I legit take this every single day. And they sponsor the episode and I love them. Mars men uses natural ingredients designed to support healthy testosterone production while helping your body manage cortisol levels. There's no weird stimulants or synthetic hormones. And what I like about it is that it doesn't feel like I'm just ripping a cup of coffee and like my heart's going to go crazy. It's designed to support a more consistent energy and stamina and sleep and recovery. It's also made in the USA. It's third party tested and now available at GNC nationwide. Plus it comes with a 90 day money back guarantee and over 91% of users report higher energy levels. All the ingredients are fantastic and natural. If I mean you can just buy all of these things separately but that's going to take a ton of time and be super expensive or you just go to men. go to Mars.com and you can get all of it packaged into one simple supplement stack that's going to give you everything you need. And for a limited time to listeners of this show, we're going to get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts when they go to mengo to Mars.com. That's mengo to Mars.com for 50% off and three free gifts at checkout and after you purchase telling the market increased those sent you. Do you find that there's an issue with justice in this model? Those I struggle when I hear versions of like Kindu reincarnation or Sikhism or things like that where there's, you know, your life on earth creates this sort of karmic dead. It's kind of written in the Akashic records perhaps and you're trying to fulfill your Dharma on earth. And if you do a terrible job of that, well, there's some type of restart, so to speak. Again, it's not really the right framing because we're not on the same linear time. We go back in time, you know, even into a different sort of multiverse, so to speak. But sometimes I sit with them and go, the incentive to be great, I guess, to like reduce like the karmic debt, like the incentive to like be a good person to understand the fundamental truth that there is a oneness for all of us. But, you know, I sort of reunite the consciousness at the end and so does the worst person imaginable. But also so does the best person imaginable that did nothing wrong ever. That was like just a perfect saint. And I'm like, where is the sort of justice in that system? Wow, you want to get into the, I'm trying to understand the secrets of the theology around evil. Great. Solve the problem of evil, if you don't want to. Okay. I'm going to give you a whirl at it and to say that this is incomplete, but here it goes. We enter into the physical world because we want to know ourselves and we want to know the divine better. And in particular, we want to enter into the world of duality because there is the rub. And that's exactly what we're looking for. If there's light, there's dark, if there's good, there's bad. And so I think that when we enter into this world, it's up to us to figure out what mission we're on. Why did we come here? Why did we come to be in this world and what kind of role are we supposed to play here? That seems to be kind of the issue. And because we have purposely entered into a world of duality, there are sometimes when we work great and sometimes when we don't work so well, you know. And then you go to that spot of, wow, maybe I was here to do something that's that helps somebody else, case in point. When I go into the non-physical world, one of the people that I really want to meet is Judas Iscariot because I believe that when Jesus came into the physical world, He knew and had designed His exit and He needed somebody to turn Him in. He needed somebody to play the foil and who is He going to ask? I think it's His best friend. Who else would play that role? Who else would say, "Yeah, I'd just like to have all of humanity hate me for 2,000 years." Jesus couldn't be Jesus without Judas. Wouldn't have happened. So what did He sign up for when He came here? Now, of course, did He have any knowledge of it when you're in the physical world? Well, none of us do, really. But you play it out anyway. And so sometimes we're the good guys and sometimes we need to be a jerk because that person has a lesson they need to be to learn, and the only way they can learn it is if I am the jerk and I hope I play my role perfectly. If that's what I'm supposed to do, let me play that role and do it well so that we both learn our lessons. I think the gospel of Judas talks about this. Are you familiar with that text? I am not. And I have always been curious to read that. Is that in there, really? It's not canonical. So it's not in the Bible? No, it's it. Apocryphalum. Right. But it is this text that kind of was like swirling around, I think, in like two, three AD kind of thing, like in the early centuries of Christendom. And I think it tells a story from Judas's perspective that in order to carry out this divine sacrifice, basically to your point, that there had to be a foil to an extent. There had to be a catalyst to then drive the betrayal in order to fill this sort of great destiny. And it's obviously not included in the canon of the church. But it's an idea that I think was circulating amongst like post-Christ Judaism as well as Christians of the time that were sort of reading these kind of texts. I'm almost certain it's a gospel of Judas. I hope I'm not completely off here. But yeah, it's a really interesting idea. And have you tried to interact with Judas' scary? I have on occasion put out the memo, but I haven't yet to connect. I got other people I want to visit more at the moment. I spoke with a friend about this idea and he just had such an interesting sort of perspective that I forgot exactly what it says, but he tells a version of this to his kids. And he says, in the beginning, there was nothing, but nothing is something. And nothing realized it was something. And then that's something decided to play a game. And the game was to forget that it is God and to basically inhabit these human forms and go to earth and to play the game. And that is ultimately the reality that we live in is this kind of chopped up version of consciousness that is forgotten that we are once some type of interconnected monolith of consciousness. And we play the game. And the game is exactly that a game to be played in order to grow and experience the game. The purpose of a movie is not to get to the end and see what the end of the movie is. The purpose of the movie is to experience the movie. And by the end of the game, we reunite, we are assessed, and then we can choose to play the game again. And it was an interesting way to kind of frame it and sort of looking at reality as a game. I mentioned and quoted Nietzsche in a really interesting way that I'd never heard before. And I'll give kind of his version. I hope I'm not bastardizing it if he's watching right now. But Nietzsche, I think you're not Nietzsche. I think he'll be okay with it. But my friend sort of added on to it an interesting way. But Nietzsche describes three sort of different prototypes that are playing the game. And one is a camel. Now my friend described as a sheep because I actually think it makes them out of four better. So you have a sheep, okay? And sheep don't really realize that they're in a game. They're kind of feeble and they sort of like kind of go along with what's happening around them. And the world sort of happens to them and they don't really have a ton of agency. And there's that subset of people. And then there's another subset that are lions. They are playing the game very intensely and passionately. And they're in many ways kind of feeding on the sheep. But they don't realize it's a game either. They're playing the game so ruthlessly and with so much passion and fervor that there's kind of lost and wrapped up in this. And so there may be more successful. They're proliferating and they're doing a better job sort of in like the sort of made-up point system. But they don't know it's a game. So they're kind of missing the whole point of the thing. And then there's a third faction that are children. And children in this kind of metaphor recognize that it's a game and that it is a game to be played. A game to be won is just a game to be played in general. And he says that the best way to be is to be a child pretending to be a lion. And I thought it was such an interesting way to look at reality. That okay, we recognize because it gave me I guess permission to oscillate because I'll go through versions of my own personal life where like I'm very ambitious and I sort of lose focus and I forget that this is a game and I get mad over little things and I get frustrated by stuff that doesn't matter and a little joke doesn't work at a show and I'm like what is wrong with these people do I suck everything's meaning what's everything that I forget and I'm like oh this is supposed to be fun like why am I so stressed out about this. But then sometimes I'll oscillate more into the child version where I'm like having a great time and I'm like almost who's in and I'm almost too like yeah you know things are happening life goes on. And it gave me a really interesting framework to understand at least my experience in life which is to say yeah this is a game but I'm going to play the game as best I can with passion and I'm going to try to play it for keeps all the while recognizing like hey we're here to have fun. Like the whole point of this reality and this experience is to kind of enjoy it and spend time with people and be competitive with people sure but at the end of the day it's like what is the point of all this it's to live the life. I'd never heard it put in those terms before. I love that. That's a great story. Do you mind if I borrow it? I'll need it. Thank you. Say I thought of it though. But you bring up an interesting point and that's about the filters that when we are in this space of all knowing this unified universe and then we decide we want to come into this world duality. Okay? Sure. You organize your lives and then we're going to give you these set of filters so that you don't recognize that you are God and that you have capabilities and you are cut off from connection with the non-physical universe. So there's a whole specific set of filters that we agree to when we come in here so we can play the game successfully. Here's the thing though. When people have near-death experiences or shared-death experiences the filters get beat up. Sometimes they disappear entirely, sometimes a bunch of them go away. When they come back. When they come back and that's where all of a sudden person comes back and they have healing capabilities are able to do telepathy. They're able to do all of it. There's a list of 145 things that happen to people as after-effects to near-death experiences and they can do them all. Meaning the collective can do them all. Individually, it depends on which filters get eliminated when they were there. It's like all of that light just burn some of them up or something because people really are changed when they come back. There's a story that we've talked about in the show that I'm sure you're familiar with. It's a woman leaving a synagogue after a temple service and there's a lightning strike in the parking lot. I think it strikes her, nearly strikes her. She goes unconscious, gets sent to the hospital, describes a near-death experience, describes many of the things we've discussed so far, comes back and then starts having these bizarre dreams. Like waking up at 3 a.m. like what is going on? This is so strange. And the dreams are sometimes banal. It's like okay, well your kid is and the dream like her son is switching schools and she's like oh this is weird and then you can hold two months later. Her kid gets into like a charter school for gifts of kids and goes to a different school. She's like oh that's so strange. And so she starts documenting these through email with her therapist and putting a timestamp on them. Hey just had a weird dream. Here's all the details I can give you and this is all I got. The woman's name is Elizabeth Greenfield Crone. So in 1988 she's leaving in Houston and gets struck by lightning and she has this near-death experience. A beautiful garden she encounters a spiritual presence whom she understands to be god. She was permitted to ask questions about life-suffering religion. She felt she could remain there but understood doing so would be permanently leaving her children or at least temporarily leaving them while she's there and they're here. And so she chose to return. And then the one of the most significant ones I think if I'm not mistaken, perhaps you can scroll farther down. Oh that's what it is. So she collaborates with Rice University Religion Scholar Jeffrey Cripple. Cripple and one of the experiences I think is that she's saying she writes to her therapist and says I had a weird dream that there's a plane in New York. I thought it was a terrorist attack but then it just decides to land on water. Oh. And then a few weeks later, Sully Selenberger lands his plane on the Hudson River. And I think that was a story that ended up making like national headlines because it was a big one. I think that is true. If you want a fact check, feel free. But it was something to that effect. So it's one of these, again, these cases where it's a vivid near-death experience, then you come back being changed in some way. Strange. To me, I guess the question is like I see so many of these from stories. I read these different stories. I call it my neurologist friend. I say, "Hey, great news. I just talked to a guy, super nice, handsome, great jacket." And he said that you don't have to be afraid of death because we don't actually die. And on top of that, if you do have a near-death experience, you come back with these like really kind of phenomenal superpowers like life is amazing. Why does he not know that? And more importantly, why is he not just immediately going to be like, "Oh, I fully believe you." Like what is preventing sort of the mainstream kind of academic world from just being like, "Oh, yeah, these things are strange." Or am I completely off and perhaps they already are? Oh no, there's a big split right now. And part of it has to deal with what we talked about before. Does the brain is at the seat of consciousness? And that will take a while to die. Because so many of our psychologists and psychiatrists and neuroscientists come from that perspective. If you tweak the brain in certain ways, you get these memories. So they know how the brain is organized as this magnificent filter for consciousness. But that's different than saying the brain is the seat of consciousness. It is where consciousness arises from. So it's going to take a while for that viewpoint to change. Part of it is that if you're in that field, you have a certain set of literature that you are encouraged to read. And we only have so much time if we get kids and a wife and you want to play the banjo on the side or something. And so that's why crossing academic disciplines can be really helpful. I mean, it's 1991 that the Lancet article came out. Good Lord, it's 25 years ago. But that's not long enough for that group to go out of power that has it. So I think that's part of it. And you know, and how we organize knowledge, you know, we have lots of really nifty silos. And if you said, oh, you know, near death experiences are the result of hypoxia, no oxygen to the brain. You know, if it was just to say, well, that makes sense to me. Well, I was disproved like 30 years ago. So if you said, well, you know, this literature is all of it's right here in this silo. Go check it out. Right. And again, I understand that it's helpful for standardizing and modernizing science. Like I don't, I understand that people are frustrated by this and they go, oh, science, all these doctors lie to you. I don't think it's that. I think that the standardization, the attempt to create a methodology around science has been phenomenal and been wonderful for like the progress in medicine and STEM at large. But also it does create a standardization that certain things might not necessarily fit into yet. And that there's certain elements of this that I wonder, well, maybe this is a science we just don't really have a word for, right? Like if you explain germ theory to someone in like the 1500s, yeah, that would work. Like I don't even know what they would say. Like if you were to say, like, oh, like on your hands right now, there's an entire world of these microorganisms that are like moving around and repopulating and dying and they're kind of, I can't see him. Yeah, you would just say like, well, that's absurd. But it would be correct. But you didn't have evidence to prove it. But so you would just be telling me, like if you went back in your way back machine, you told them this, they'd be like, I don't, I don't, I don't see it. I don't believe this. Even if it's right. So then the question is like, okay, well, how can we prove it? And so I think people sometimes shock this up to like, woo, woo, spiritualism. I'm like, maybe, sure, but maybe it is a science that we don't really understand. Maybe there is a way to communicate without, you know, using our words through a consciousness. Maybe there is a way to have precognition because we're, you know, we understand that time and space is a relative thing and that these things are strictly confined to our reality and our observation of reality and that, I mean, even birds, like they're seeing colors that we don't see. So it's like, they're existing in the same plane as us, but in a different reality. So it's like, I don't know, I sometimes get frustrated. I'm like, there's a, I think there's other ways that these things can be explained that is not just like, oh, this is mystical kind of BS. Now, on the consciousness point, I'm feeling, I'm always presented with this binary where it's okay. It's other local or it's non-local. Like, again, there's many different subcategories of how to describe consciousness. There's hundreds of them. Actually, it was just listening to a podcast with Alex O'Connor where he goes through like 200 of them. It's amazing. But there's kind of two broad camps, so to speak, that as you know, either consciousness is created by the mind. We've evolved. We go from these single cell organisms, go all the way up the chain, the whole ladder, right? We're standing upright. We're tall. We got closed. And now we have a brain that creates a consciousness. And now we can kind of observe ourselves. We're now, it creates this sensation, which again, we haven't really been able to find what it even really is. But then the other camp is like, okay, consciousness is non-local. That our brain is almost like a receiver that consciousness exists outside of us and that our brain is kind of tapping into the signal of consciousness. Is it possible that's a false binary and that both of those things could be happening? I wonder about this. Like, my TV, for example, right? Like, I can put a DVD in there. Pretend that we're doing this podcast 15 years ago. I can put a DVD in there. And I'm able to play my DVD. It's stored in the TV. It is local to my TV. But then I can also change the channel and go to the receiver and then now pick up a signal from you know, the TV station down the street. Does it have to be one or the other? So when in the world that I come from, the world of NDEs and STEs, they would tell you that consciousness is fundamental and causal. It is the nature of the universe. That's everything arises from consciousness. And I would tell you that your examples are good ones in that what are those filters that we're putting on consciousness here? So that we can, even though we're in the same space, we're experiencing it differently. I think of you familiar with the telepathy tapes. Absolutely. High Dickens. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So this last week when I was at the conference for International Societies for Near Desk Studies, they had family with autistic children. So they're nonverbal and able to communicate. They look at the world entirely differently than we do. We're in the same space. Their filters are different than ours. Mm-hmm. And the bird, you're saying like, wow, yeah, it was all these these different colors. One of the things that people come back with from near-death experiences is synesthesia, some of them. And synesthesia is the ability to cross our senses so we can smell colors and and hear colors. Hear colors. Yeah. So the point is that that is a whole different receive it. It's a whole different antenna than we currently have. And so that's a filter that's been given to you but not to me. You can, you can hear a color. Awesome. I say Beethoven could do that. Mm-hmm. So is that, is that a type of consciousness? Maybe. Another one that that people have when they come back is the recognition of synchronicity. This is a big one. So you set up something like, um, okay, well, I'll tell you a story about I met with my dissertation advisor and he made the suggestion to me, Bruce Kramer's his name. He said, Scott, given your interest, I think you should study near-death experiences. Really? He says, yeah, I had a neighbor who had one. And I think you would find it fascinating and it fits right in with the topic that you're interested in. Okay. So as I'm leaving his office, I send up to the troops upstairs and say, all right, I want three signs, three pieces of synchronicity that says I should investigate this. I get my car turned on the radio. It's an interview with somebody who's having had a near-death experience. Really? I go to my friend's house. I open up the door. She hands me a book and say, just finished reading this. I think you'd find it amazing. It's about near-death experiences. And the next one was, I forget now. Anyway, I had three of them. It hasn't happened yet. It might be coming soon. No, no. It didn't happen. And three of them, in a row, in the space of an hour, it's like, yep, I get it. I get it. I'll investigate this and see if this really resonates with me. Well, turns out it did. But our lives are organized like that. That is a method of communication. That is a type of consciousness that connects us with the non-physical world. I need some advice and information on something. Send me a blue feather if it's going to be written. These are interesting. This happens to my wife, an extraordinary amount. It's very strange. But there's some that I give a lot of credence to. It's something that I don't. You're familiar with the bearing, mine-hoff frequency illusion. You want to buy a yellow car. And then, as you're thinking about buying this yellow car, you notice the same yellow car. Of course, our perception keys into things that we're thinking about. And then, of course, there's the variability of, I've heard people describe the going to Barcelona methodology. If you really want to go to Barcelona, you tell everyone you know that you want to go to Barcelona and then slowly this kind of this experience will manifest for you because you tell enough people and eventually someone's like, "Oh, my aunt has a place in Barcelona. If you want to go busy, you can stay with her." And then you tell another person, like, "Oh, I work for American Airlines. I can get you a flight." And all of a sudden, this thing kind of comes with fruition. So it's difficult to isolate the variables. So there's certain ones that I kind of wave off. I'm like, it's interesting. It's a data point, but I'm not going to lead too much into it. But then there are others that have one like, well, this is kind of inexplicable. So even just yesterday, one happened, which was very strange. Yeah. So like, I have a friend of mine who, him and his wife are about to have a baby. Congratulations. It's awesome. Yep. He calls me up and goes, "Tude, we're pregnant." This is, I don't even know, at this point, eight months ago. And he tells me early on, I was like, "Oh, that's amazing." Meanwhile, my wife is in the other room. She goes, "Oh, who are you talking to?" And I was like, "Oh, my buddy. He's about to, he's pregnant. Isn't that amazing? Him and his wife are pregnant." She goes, "Oh, that's great. We don't talk about it." But like, that's kind of it. I'm close with this guy. My wife and him are not particularly close. So I kind of leave it at that. And as a typical good friend, I forget all about this. And I never once bring it up. Again, I go, "That's amazing. Good for you. Congrats. Can't wait to meet him." Awesome. And then yesterday, my wife at like 7.30 p.m. goes, "Hey, whatever happened with your friend and that baby." That's a good point. I haven't thought about that in nine months. So then I go to sleep. I text one the more. I say, "Hey, man. How are you?" Because at this point, if I haven't heard anything, maybe someone's wrong. I don't know what's going on. So I just go vague like, "How's it going?" And he goes, "You're not going to believe it. We had our baby." And I was like, "That's amazing. What?" And he goes, "Yes, you're dead." I was like, "What time?" And he was like 9.00 p.m. And I was like, "Wow, that's pretty cool." He was like, "Yeah." And like, things really kind of took off right around like 7 o'clock. And I was like, "That is bizarre." And I go, "I have it in the text where I'm like, okay, this is a synchronicity that's like difficult for me to kind of chalk up. I don't know. Never happens to me. I'm never the one that's the ordains this. It's always my wife that has these experiences. She has dreams all the time. We can fix that, you know? Well, this is what scares me. This is what puts me on my back foot. For my wife, it happens that she isn't asked for this. She has dreams, precognitive dreams, in my opinion, that happen all the time. Before babies are born, just all this kind of stuff where she's just has these dreams where she's like, like even before we knew we were pregnant, we have one son. Before we knew, she says, "Hey, I'm pregnant." And I was like, "How do you know?" But for the record, we had two miscarriages prior to this. And I was like, "Look, I don't want to get our hopes up." This is the whole thing. She's like, "No, I'm pregnant. This one's going to stay." And I was like, "Why?" She's like, "I had a dream." I was like, "What?" She's like, "Yeah, I had a dream. I had this baby, bald, laying on my chest. I saw his head. I knew as a boy, we're pregnant." And I was like, "That's amazing." And I'm on bones. I mean, she's pregnant. It's a boy, bald head, still bald to this day, two years later. Still working on growing hair. We got a little in the back. I know. With DNA, did he get it? It's in that year or something. Not much. It's not hers either. What's going on? But it was like, these things, these are two small examples, but like they happen all the time. So the party was like, "What's going on here? This is strange. I don't know what to chalk it up to. I don't, I don't rest my hat on. It's like solidified science. It is one anecdote amongst many in this kind of study we're doing in life, but I don't know. What do you say to these entities? What is the intent? That I am able and willing to receive this information. It's the belief that you can do it that allows it to happen. And sometimes that belief system that we have is really rooted in something old family structures from generations ago. So it can take a bit of reorienting. But it's no different than your first story, which is, you know, if you want to go to Barcelona, you talk to people who are well, you know, then, moi, I want to touch base with Mary Fran and Nolan. So what do you do? You go to the Monroe Institute and you talk to people who do it all the time. And you go, "Well, how do you do that?" Well, I think about this and I do that. Person at lunch says the same thing. So there is something to the group energy, but it's more than that. It's that ability to say I can perceive a different way of being and I embrace that. That's where it starts. I want to ask you about some techniques. When we're talking about this phenomenon, I never ridicule anyone when they tell me an experience or a story. Even if I've never experienced it, even if I don't have the frame of understanding what it is, because like I said before, Before, maybe there's this type of science that we just don't understand. Maybe there's something going on that we don't know what it is. - I can tell, Mark, you get a story. Lay it on me. - Well, okay. There's not something that happened to me, but it is something that I think about a lot in relation to this, and it is the flying Dutchman that I was telling you before. The flying Dutchman is this phenomenon where people would stand on the beach, and they would see a ship. Let's say this is the 1500s, and they see a ship far, far away, and the ship is floating above the water. And they go, how was there's a flying ship? Then they make up a story where they're like, oh, it's a ghost ship, it's a ship that's sank, and this is the apparition of the ship in that afterlife, and it's floating across the sky, and that's what I saw. And then they tell everyone around town, and then they all talk about it, and they go, yeah, there's a flying ship. And then there's other people that didn't see the ship, and they're like, you're crazy. There's no flying ship, float ships don't fly. And now, we know that is a verified actual phenomenon with a scientific basis for what happened. And you can see images, if you pull up an image of this phenomenon in the modern day, it's the same sort of mirage effect, I guess we're getting literal historical depictions. Could you do modern, and it's this mirage effect? Have you seen the modern images? I hope I'm not explaining something that's already happened. It's search optical illusion, that's what we need. And to this day, you can see, depending on where you are, depending on the heat, you can see these images, like that one, there we go. That one right there, of these ships, and it's not only ships with big sails, you can also see images of like tankers. Oh, that one actually in the bottom right, Christos, that's the one we want. Oh wow, this is just a regular modern tanker, and it's floating in the air. And so, what's going on? Well, there's a mirage that happens, where you're out of the desert or you open your oven, and you see the waves of air. Your actual vision is obstructed by the heat of the air, and it creates this bizarre optical effect, where it looks like this ship is floating when actually it's on the surface of the water. And so, for me to sit here and tell these people they didn't see a flying ship is kind of assinime because they did. They absolutely did. Like, their experience is absolutely real, and now we have science and understanding to know what occurred. And maybe their exact understanding or definition maybe wasn't exactly right, but the experience that they had was absolutely true. But maybe there was just a science that came later that didn't fully understand it. Now, in this case, what if there's, we're able to actually track where people's minds go after death? Like, what if there's a way we can actually tag it and see actually what happens and say like, okay, we have now words in data to go along with this phenomenon. I don't, to me, I'm like, sure. Like, why not? Oh, precognition? Yeah, timelines are weird. We live in a multiverse simulation theory. Who knows? Like, all right, great. This is my aversion to certainty where people say like, oh, no, that never happened. 'Cause it's like, well, hundreds of people saw this, and to them, it did. You know? And perhaps there's a more real, like, kind of fundamental thing. Like, maybe, you know, in this example, maybe the ship does fly sometimes. And maybe that's the farther version. So, are you familiar with, familiar with side games? Oh, yes. I'm so curious about this. So, there's a group that has organized this conference. It happens once a year in Charlotte. And it's been running two years now. And they get, they divide up into five groups, and they practice and teach things that you normally wouldn't do, like, precognition. From a viewing. Remote viewing. Psychokinesis, my teaching partner came back and her seven-year-old son went, and he's all excited because he can stick a penny on the wall now, with his energy. So, one of the derivatives of psychokinesis, telepathy. But the one that is, that I find fascinating, I'm gonna see if I can learn it, is mind sight. Do you know this one? So, you wear a blindfold. Absolutely no way light can get in. And then they set you out onto a obstacle course. And you have to weave through this obstacle course and they time you. And the person who gets through with the best time wins. Well, they are able to see without their physical eyes. So, they are using another sense of seeing. And anyway. So, these things that you're talking about, it's like somebody said, well, let's make a game out of it. Maybe we'll get more people interested in it. And they have a thousand people there this year that were out practicing and learning how to do things that we previously thought were impossible. And they get scored and they get this person moved that pen, two and a half feet, he's the winner. Yeah, that kind of thing. Like, what is going on? Teleportation, that's another one. That's a part of it. So, do we do this? People do this stuff. Is there a way to verify to where I can explain this to my friends and not sound crazy? Because there's a part where I'm like, yeah, of course. Like, sure. But then I try to explain it. I'm like, well, you know, I don't know. Yeah. So, I was first introduced to mind sight through the books of Carlos Castaneda. Yes. You know, so this is the Yaki way of knowledge where young man goes and he studies with Don Juan who's a shaman. And one of the tasks that he assigns to him is to go out into the jungle at night and go from here to there. And he can't use his physical eyes because it's dark as pitch. And he has to find his way. And he discovers that he can see in the dark. And I went, huh. Well, now, you know, there's all kinds of people. There are fascinating videos from the UK where they teach kids how to do mind sight. They have these blindfolds on and they hand them a book. See here, read the book. They read it straight up, check it out. UK mind sight. Like, are these things not able to just be like fully just like done in a laboratory setting? Oh, I suppose they could be. Like, I know some of them, there's difficulty. Like, people with pre-cognition, like the woman we were talking about before, but she's like, I don't invoke this. Like, I just go to sleep, I have these dreams. Like, I can't, if you put me in a room, like, it might happen, it might not, I don't know. And so there's a testability that becomes difficult. But with something like this, it's like, well, could we just do it? Like, is there something that's inhibiting that? Have these things been studied to that degree? Sure. Yeah, I mean, some of the earliest ESP stuff was done. Remember the cards with circles and squares and wavy lines? They did that at Duke. That's pre-cognition. And that is a form of pre-cognition. When you're talking about with dreams and that's another form and you might be good at cards and not good at that. So everybody has their talent. But yes, this has been studied for years and years and years. And I know about a lot of like the military to studies, like the Ingo Swans and the Yuri Gallers and the Operation Grille Flames and MK Ultra, things like that. Do you think they're still doing this to some degree? Well, I know about remote viewing, because Joe McMonigal, remote viewer, O-O-One, he taught at Monroe. And I knew him for a long time. And he, well, they, the military, developed this protocol around remote viewing so that it is verifiable. So it's not like dreams. I mean, there is a protocol that you follow. And yeah, it works. And now, you know, it's at the side games, you know, where there's hundreds of people who are practicing it. Are they still utilizing it within the military, do you think? No idea. They would be foolish if they weren't, you know, because it's, they had said the success rate was 89%, something like that. Well, if I'm remembering that stat rate. Yeah, so it's, I would hope that they would be, but given the state of our military at the moment, maybe not, maybe not, I don't know. I mean, what is the nature of this where, like, that this isn't more talked about? Like within your world and within your commute, I'm sure that's just kind of an accepted notion, but you go out with the rest of the, these wildlings out here, you know, me and my buddies. You tell my friends this, they're like, oh, okay, like you tell any average New Yorker. You're like, well, you know some people can remote view and like, yeah, all right. Remove view me tonight at 2 a.m. See what I'm doing, like, yeah. There's that kind of attitude. Why is this not something that's like more accepted in the way the germ theory is accepted? All of it takes time and it, you know, it takes time to change a cultural viewpoint. I wish I could tell you any different. There is, Edgar Casey talks about how at this point in our history, especially starting around this year, 2026, [BLANK_AUDIO] His last viewing was about this year, and what's happening to us as human beings, that we are changing, and that. Now he's talking from the 1940s, I'm going to try to do this justice, but the way our solar system moves through the Milky Way, that they're increasing in decreasing vibratory levels. I'm getting outside of my expertise level here, but what he's talking about is that we are in a period now where the physical, base, vibratory level of the physical world is changing, and that it's that it's increasing, and if any of your viewers are familiar with the scientific study called "Syematics," C-Y-M-A-T-I-C-S, "Syematics" is the visual representation of sound, and so if you take a, say, a metal plate, and you hook wires up to it and you feed it, 440 hertz, and you toss salt on the plate, it forms a pattern. I've seen these, they're so strange. And then you crank it up, and it forms another more complex pattern, and you crank it up, and it forms another more complex pattern. That principle is what he was describing what's happening to us now, is that we are undergoing an increase in vibration and how we are organized physically will change because of this increased vibratory level. No options. Everything will change, and because you can't avoid it, we are the physical world will be bathed in this new, in this new frequency level, and it will keep rising up. When that rises up, the filters drop, and so people will be able to connect more with the physical, and it will happen more and more often, and telepathy will happen, and now your buddies will be going, you know, I knew when my mom was going to call me, and she did, damn, that is weird, kind of fun, but kind of weird too. So I think if we approach this right as a as a civilization and approach it like, with curiosity, and not judgment, that comes right out of Ted Lasso, by the way, not judgment, but curiosity, dark throwing scene. Okay. Anyway, that attitude about new things that will be entering into our environment will go a long way towards making this an acceptable topic to talk about. Yeah. You mentioned something earlier when we were talking that when we die, yeah, we see a life record. We can. Yes. And you described a lot of the features of this, that there's kind of an optionality, you can kind of pull people in with you, the way you're describing your relationship now with your wife, and that you're going to kind of bring her along at a certain point, depending on, you know, how things go. What is the life record and what kind of options do we have once we die? I love this part of the near death experience called the life review. And when that's this idea that your whole life flashes before your eyes, and you get to relive your life again, as you in its fullness, every thought, word, deed, sensation, everything. You get it all, and you get to view it, slow down, speed it up. However you want to see it, it's available to you. That's one viewpoint. There's a second viewpoint though. So when we have our life review, and this scene comes up in our life review, I will know what you were thinking. I know it's spooky. And you will know what I'm thinking because we in this scene, we get to play the other. So not only are you aware of yourself, but you're aware of the other person that's involved in the exchange. So I'll know everything about how my actions, my voice, my topics influenced you and how when you leave here, what will happen to you, your family, your community, as a result of this conversation. That's two-third is that we get a chance to view it from the omniscient point of view. God's perspective, if you will. So this is where you pull back and you know you're looking at this exchange and going, oh this exchange will reach a thousand people who will tell ten people who will then change their viewpoint on how they view their life and they're not afraid of death anymore. Whatever. You actually get to see why this exchange was put into both of our lives and how it affected other people. So we get our our viewpoint, the other viewpoint, and God's perspective. So we get to really go back to the questions we were talking about before. It's like, well, how does this work? Why are we here? Well, there you get your answers because think of all the things that you learned, that you did right or you screwed up and here's the fourth thing and this is worth the price of admission. So if anybody's still listening to this at this point, you get extra stars in heaven. Here's the thing that will really make a difference. So you're going along in your life review and there's some scene in there and you're being a jerk and you're going, who? I really wish I hadn't done that. Pause. In a life review, you're always accompanied by a guardian angel. You're a guardian angel or some some being who is going to love you through the experience and usually as you go through the experience, I ask you the question, how did you live with what you know? I'm sorry, let me try that again. What did you learn? That's the question. What did you learn? What did you learn? And you know, you can go along and you're reviewing your life and go, hey, I learned this lesson. And then there's that scene where you just go, man, I just really wish I'd done that differently. You turn to your guide and you say, please rewind. They rewind it and you get to play the scene again only this time. You get to be in the scene and you get to take a different action. What do you want to do? Okay, so I was a jerk last time. I'm going to be a nice guy this time. And then you get to see what happens between the two people and how it plays out. And you're going, oh, I thought that would fix it. That wasn't the right one either. Okay, let's do it again. And you can do it over and over and over again until you get to learn enough about yourself and the situation that you truly understand what happened. Now here's the fun part. All of those iterations are part of the human experience. They all become part of the human experience. So wherever's collecting all of the experiences that we have as a species and trying to figure out, it's like God trying to figure out who himself, but and I didn't mean to put a gender on it. Sorry. It's God trying to figure out who God is. So there's all of these iterations that are there that are now part of the record that collective consciousness that is humanity. Deal with your own karma, right in the life review. You don't have to live another 16 lives to fix whatever thing you did that was you really didn't like. You can fix it right then. Fix the karma. Now, how do we know this? I haven't read the whole Bible. I've gotten pretty close, but I'm Catholic. We don't really get deep into the Bible. No, it comes out of near-death research. It comes out of people who've had significant life reviews and we talked about those clever people that look for their shadows and there are clever people who somebody said, "Can I play this again?" And they remember. of them, and then they ask their guide, how is this important? Is there a specific case you can take me through? Other one that's like well-known that exists in media or one that you've personally worked with? You don't have to say their names if you don't want to. No. No, I don't want to go there. That's fair. I don't know if there's a near-death hippo. I don't want to violate that. Yeah, right. Exactly. But it's now becoming, see, this is the thing. At the beginning of near-death research, hardly anybody had a tunnel experience. It's like 7%. And then when somebody started talking about the tunnels as a way of transitioning from the physical world to the non-physical, it started showing up more and more because people liked it. And then it showed up on television because it's a nice visual for "Mmm." So what does that tell us about? It's now 40%. What does that tell us about our co-creation of the experience? Yeah. It tells us a lot. The short thing is you get what you expect. So when you read near-death literature, American near-death experiences are entirely different than Japanese, which are entirely different than Indonesian or Indian. They are culturally based because they tend to rely on the metaphors that we have in our brains that is in our memory. And if you were going to question a Yamatut from the Hindu tradition, well, that makes no sense to a Presbyterian from Southern Minnesota. So my experience will be consistent with my memories and my culture because that way I get a chance to understand what's happening to me. That's interesting. Do you feel like that is an issue for people when it comes to grappling with this type of experience? I've heard it said that people that have schizophrenic episodes in America and they believe that they're God. Oftentimes they'll say like, "I am Jesus Christ. I'm the second coming of Christ." Whereas people in Mumbai that have this experience, they might say, "I'm Vishnu or I'm Shiva." And it is a cultural lens that now maps onto this, God, like Mania that they experience in this mental episode. So would the same go here? If the near-death experience is mapped to a cultural lens, would that lend itself to make you think that it's a subjective experience and not some type of objective, actual reality that we go to after we die? Great question. I believe there is an objective reality at some level, but because it's ineffable and we don't have words to describe it and we don't have the cultural metaphors to describe it, they get as close as they can get to try to help us through this thing so that we really get a sense of the message that's supposed to be imparted to us through this experience. Because remember, near-death experiences by their very nature are designed for you to have an experience and come back to the physical life. That's what they're for. They're there to inform you about something. Maybe it's about divinity. Maybe it's about how you're connected with everything. We were talking earlier about the less than positive experiences. Well, many of those, not all, but a vast majority of those are essentially two-by-fourths alongside the head, where you know, guidance, you know, you come up there and say, "Mark, where would you hit me?" And he said, "Listen, dude, you signed up for a mission. You're not even close to the mission. You're not even in the same ballpark as the mission. So what you need to get doing is x, y, and c because that's what you're supposed to be here doing in the physical world and you're screwing up your own mission. So you can choose to do that or not do it." That's essentially what's going on, is that they're getting this straight up and fly right, Mr. So that's part of the equation too, which is now different again from those who've had shared death experiences like mine, where I'm accompanying those who are making their final transition and I can go with them. I went a relatively short way into the light. There are some people that go through the whole thing. They go through the tunnel, they meet the dead relatives, they go to the party, they have a divine being, they get to witness the life review or participate in it. So, you know, they can do the whole thing. Do those people ever describe corroborated events where they see the life review and then they come back and they say, "This person in this interaction was thinking this and then they go verify that some other way and then they ascertain a knowledge that was otherwise unknowable to them?" That's a great question because I haven't read that many that have that feature to them. I mean, that would be remarkable. It would be remarkable. I have to go look for that. Yeah, I just wonder if there's like, I don't know, the life review thing is so scary. It's a wonderful thing. I put imagine like, oh my goodness, like I'm having, like let's say you're having an intimate moment with your wife and you're like, "I love you so much." And then you go into her brain and she's like, "I should have never married you." And you're like, "Oh no, I would rather not know that. I'd rather just pretend that never happened." Or maybe that's a part of the lesson. What is the lesson there? I don't think that's a lesson. I don't even want to know. Anyway, I don't know. Maybe I did. Maybe I don't understand the divine intelligence of the universe, but. There is a difference between near death experiences and shared death experiences that is important. Depending on which study it is, it's something like four percent plus people who have less than positive experiences. What about you said? The hellish experience. You said four percent? Yeah, it is. Depends on the study. Some of them, it's more than that, like 15 percent, but most of them that I've read are low single digits. It's that two-by-four alongside the head. In a shared death experience, a reminder, it's not about learning something and coming back. You're experiencing what somebody else's actual final, leaving the physical body for the last time. It is their transition. William Peters did a study in its detailed in his book, "Dore Way to Heaven." Took me a second. Sorry. 900 people, a lot. Those of you, there's statisticians out there knowing that that end is really eye. Out of the 900 people that had a shared death experience, every single one, 100 percent, accompanied people who had a blissful experience. When the final transition comes, there's no hell. There's no bad. You go to a benevolent, loving universe, 100 percent. Is it possible that those that have the benefit of bringing someone along are just those that are the elect they get to have the beautiful experience? Like, is it possible that those that are, man, you have gone to too many statutes. Is it possible that there's like, if some people are banned out of hell? Sure. It's the hell. Like, okay, the hell people saw, you don't get to bring a body pass. Like, you're in hell. If such a thing exists. The contention is, no, it doesn't. That hell-like feature is associated with the earth with the physical world as something that we have created with our consciousness. It's not part of the permanent, loving universe. Right. Is there ever an experience where people feel dejected that they didn't have a shared experience? Oh, sure. Right. Like, why you? Why not me? Right. You're describing your example where there's two people in that room of perhaps 25. I don't know how many people packed in, but that got to have this miraculous experience, a life-changing, transcendent thing that has changed the trajectory of your life ostensibly. And yet, there was other people people that were blood related that, you know, had known her for so much longer that didn't have it. I wonder if there's an element of like, well, why him, not me? Did you have people that share this? Or people that maybe share experiences are like, well, it's actually taking a toll on our marriage because my child chose to bring me and my wife, like things like that. - I'm gonna go back to William Peters 'cause he's the one who identified those three criteria that there needs to be a heart connection. You need to be not active. You have to be open, receptive to that experience, and you need to have the invitation. And each of those need to be present. And maybe they weren't all present. The middle one in particular, like I never could believe it could happen anyway. Or, you know, they're just thinking about their grief. Grief is a very low vibratory state and folks that are visited by those who would like to be visited by those who have passed on. In my experience, they need to wait a while, you know? Six months a year for their deep grief to go away and to be mitigated in some way. So they aren't this slow moving blob of emotion. It's a tough place to be. - Are there examples of people having shared death experiences many months-driven years after the actual transition? - Not as often, the vast majority of them are a couple days ahead to about four or five days after. That's the window. - Now, can you tell me some of the techniques that people actually use to achieve these states now? - Sure. (laughs) - Why do I say like that? 'Cause I love this question. I know this is the bulk of your work and we've dedicated last three and a half decades too. - So I am a huge proponent of Bainoral Beats training. Bainoral Beats are, it's an audio technology where you wear a set of headphones and you feed one tone into one ear, say 400 hertz and another tone into the other ear, say 406. And the brain tries to equalize the two because that's what you do. That's how you echolocate in space is, what's the difference in tonality as a sound comes and hits your ears? - I see these YouTube videos from time to time. There's a couple on YouTube. Oh yeah, are those reputable? - Some, but there are some that exist. There's some crappy ones out there and there's some wonderful ones out there. I mean, you don't have to give it right now, but could you give me a link that I could put in the description if people wanted to try it? Oh, sure, amazing. Yeah, yeah. So when I was executive director of the Monroe Institute, that's the system I was brought up in. The technology they use is called HemiSync or Monroe Sound Science, some people call it and they've got an app. There's like 50 free ones on there. Just go do it's called expand. So take me through this process. What would happen if I were to try it? So you put on the headphones and these two tones I was telling you about what the brain does is it tries to equalize it to, it can't because they're inherently different. - Would air pods work? - Sure, absolutely. You just use speakers. You don't have to have headphones by like headphones you'll see, keep out the extraneous noise. And so it sets up a third tone. The brain does, you can't hear it, the brain does and it's the difference between the two. So what the brain now hears is six. The difference between 400 and 406. And it starts, the brain starts to vibrate at that particular frequency. In addition, because they're sending so many signals between the two hemispheres, trying to equalize the tones. It's setting up new neural pathways and the brain starts to not work as two hemispheres. It starts to work as one cohesive unit, which is a big deal. So you have both your linear and your spatial size of your brain working on something at the same time. And so if I was to do that to you right now, see Mark, you'd go to sleep. Six is delta sleep. Off you go. That was invented, that was discovered. I should say, back in the late 1800s. Guy, my name is Otis, discovered it. And it wasn't until Bob Monroe was trying to look for a way to help teach people to do out-of-body experiences that he said, we can work with this. His genius was to blend them. So you could have that six differential that puts the body to sleep very helpful. If your body's not paying attention when you're trying to do out-of-body work. And then you add to it, mine bright awake and clear, which is about 12 hertz. How do you do this? Same thing, you have 412. Okay, so this is a difference. It's just a differential. Okay, so what I use both of these in tandem are these two different experiences based on it. Same time. On the same time. But I'm saying, if you have the 400 or the 406, that is one sort of audio track, that's one sort of audio experience. And then you're describing another audio experience that gives me at the same time there's another track that has 412. So at the same time, it puts your body asleep and your mind is bright awake and clear. It's the layering is his genius. And then he takes you to other kinds of expanded awareness states based on the blends. And how you would experience it, I'm finally getting to your question. Sorry, it was a long intro. - What? - I'm dumb, I'm like, what is going on? I have four pairs of headphones on, hold on. - One pair of headphones, one track. You can hear those stones. They're below human hearing, 6 and 12. - So what does it sound like? - Sssssss. - Hmm. - Maybe. Sssss. It's annoying. So what they do is they embed it into music. And so it sits plus. So listen to a lovely music, which is nice because that kind of relaxes you. And meanwhile in the background, those two tones, mind awake, body asleep, they're making it work. - Who's embedding into the music? - Like music producers? - Yeah. - Of like pop songs I've listened to? - No, usually they're too jingly. - Oh really? - Yeah, you know, what works best for me and for a lot of folks is, you know, some of that non-directive new age music, just kind of floaty. And that's why I say go on to expand and listen to how this works. So they'll play some lovely tone. And in the background, they'll say this will take you to sleep. This will take you to a state of expanded awareness. This will take you to that dark place where you get to be at one with the universe, you know. So could you put into music? - Yeah, you just embed it underneath music. So there must be a music producer out there that's siphoning this into a track or something. - Oh yeah. The big one is Hammy Sync. Hammy hyphen sync sync.com. They've got hundreds of tracks designed to do all kinds of things. So what experience would I have? I'm laying in my bed, I put in my headphones. - Oh, I'm terrified already. You got to say, I was raised Catholic. I'm a Catholic. I'm afraid that I'm going to give myself up to an occult ritual and open a portal now there's enough demons in my life. - Oh, dear. We've got work on you. There's so much to be done. - I know. - Let's do an easy one. Like the state of expanded awareness, which is where you become aware of things that are outside of your physical presence. - Okay. - So you're lying in bed, you got the headphones on and there's a preparatory process at the beginning, which it's a series of affirmations that give you protection by the way. You tell your guidance that you will protect me and that whole portal nasty thing can never happen. - Okay. because you've, you've done the work ahead of time. It doesn't take long, but it's very effective. And we've been using it now for 60 years, something like that. It's really good. Yeah. So you lie there, headphones on, you're listening to this music. And you have this sense of an expanded energy body. And you kind of lose, at least for me anyway, I lose the sense of where my physicalness stops and where my energetic body begins. I was in a sensory deprivation take and I had that same experience. Yeah, you're laying there in the saltwater. And I'm like, I don't know where my fingers are exactly. Exactly. And I kind of splash around. Oh, yeah, that's where they are. Yeah, it's same thing. So you lose the sense of where your physical body is, which is wonderful, because then it doesn't restrict your consciousness for what it's able to perceive. And you know, you could be lying there and you could hear a bell tower that's two miles away inside your house. Am I literally hearing it? Yeah. Because you haven't expanded awareness. And then you go, oh, well, what if I could I go here? Could I listen to this? You know, so it's like it takes down the walls of what is possible. And it's just, it's just more fun than one person should have. So what would you recommend that I do? Like if you had to guide me, I will try this this week. Okay. So I'm like, so I'm laying in my bed. I got the thing going. I'm feeling like this expanded consciousness. I don't really know where my fingers end. I'm starting to panic a little bit, but I'm just controlling myself because I'm like, okay, this is normal and fine. And people haven't like lost their minds on this, right? Correct. And Mundo. But out of all the cases you see, and there has been someone that came back and they were like, forever changed. Like, oh, no, we did irreparable damage to this man. Yeah. Okay. So now I'm if they pause, I probably say if they did not have some sort of mental illness ahead of time, that's a different deal. Fair. But then there's a variable problem. Sure. But like, okay, I don't think I do. Oh good. But now I'm having this experience. Now, what do I do in my brain? Well, see, this is the cool thing is what you're learning to do is to take and relax your attention. It's like saying, Oh, I wish to be aware, but I am not going to do anything. I'm going to let the sound do the work. It will take me where it's supposed to go. It will change the vibratory rate of my physical and non physical bodies. It will. So there's a bit of surrender involved. We go, okay, this is fun. And you relax into this sound. I think that's the best way to say it. It is just say, okay, I have this music plan. I'm just going to relax into the music and let it take me. And that's when the magic happens. Where do I go? Well, now we're back to intent again. Okay. And at the beginning of these exercises, there are, well, the ones I recommend you start with our guided meditation. So I'll tie up ahead of time. This one will help you relieve anxiety. This one will help you sleep. This one will let your remote view. This one is set you up to do out of body work. There's a zillion. So pick one. Whatever seems to be of interest and and then just relax and have fun. And the voices will guide you. And they will bring you back. There's a at the end of the exercises, they change the frequencies to be super grounded. Like you are in your physical body. Flouting around anymore. I mean, you're like, you're here. And when I taught up in row, it was interesting. About 10% of the people that I trained at the end of the week, they said, I thought I was coming here to learn to be to do out of body experiences. What I really learned was in body experiences. They had never been in their bodies their whole life. They were always kind of drifty. And so they were able now to go, I have a physical body with all these sensations. And I'm not spacey. And it's just, this is the most wonderful, coolest thing. So you get both hands of the spectrum. Interesting. I'm fascinated by this. Oh good. If I tried, is there anything I should be aware of as far as concern, be careful with any protocol outside of what you've described? What if I fall asleep? Is that a problem? Oh, no. That's fun. No, it's fine. Two things on that. One, if you fall asleep, it means you're sleep deprived. And that's a wonderful thing. So if the thing you needed most was to have some good delta sleep, rock on. Nice. It's great. And then once you get rested, you could do it again. And you'll go do something different. The second thing is people sometimes will worry, well, you know, we'll ever, if I have an out of body experience, we'll let come back. Two things on that. One, if it's not your time, it's not your time. Your guides will never, ever let you cut your mission short just by meditating. Won't happen. We'll not happen. They are there to guide you and look after you and love you the whole time. And if you're supposed to be doing something, you know, they got your mission chart right there on the wall and they're looking out at it. So that's true. But the thing that's even better is your bladder. You know, after about 40 minutes, you got to go to the bathroom. Yeah. And it has this amazing ability to bring you back. Yeah. You're in your body real quick. Can I set my intentions of Jesus? Sure. It's fun. Yeah. Absolutely. It's, in fact, I would recommend it. It's a lovely thing. Does that change experience? No, because we've Jesus's time, Paul, the next time you want to talk to Archangel Michael. I don't know about that. You know, I'm rock with Jesus, you know. Well, then do it. This is so interesting to me. The fact that it's like this successful and you're just like, yeah, give it a spin. Try it out. Because for the record, for context, I'm such a believer in these things. Like when I see these things, like just broadly, like sort of like the parapsychologies, the size of what we're talking about, where I want them to be true because I like them. And it sort of kind of fits with my intuition about how I feel like the universe kind of made up. But at the same time, I've had so few remarkable experiences that it's hard for me to be like, all right, there's something going on. You know, like it's like I did mushrooms one time. And in that moment, I felt so strongly the third eye that everyone talks about. Oh, yeah. Never in my life. And I just, I could close my eyes and look at it. And I was like, looking at my third eye or maybe with my third eye. And I was seeing all these like fractals and shapes. And it was a remarkable experience. And like truly transcendent really helped me out a lot. And the reason in part of the way that I developed the desire to do mushrooms is because I had a conversation just like this with a doctor that does psilocybin research. Oh, yeah. It used with Johns Hopkins for a while. It's a great association that it's all about therapeutic use of psilocybin. It gave me a whole protocol. Yeah. Like I don't see these things as like, Hey, let's mess around and have fun. I see this is like this is medicinal. We're doing this for a purpose. I had specific things I wanted to work out. And it was great. Yep. Great. But I could feel that thing in my brain. And that's like the only time where I've ever really felt it. And then I almost certainly have like effentasia. Like I close my eyes and it's just black right now. Like sometimes people can close their eyes and they can look at an apple or they can move things around in the brain. I can't do that. It's just all it's just words. Like I don't there's no pictures going on. So the idea that I could close my eyes and like see things behind my eyes is bizarre. I'm so glad you mentioned that because you know here in the physical world, we have five senses. And that's all wonderful. And then when we go into the non physical world, we have those same five senses, but we haven't another five at least that we train when we when we do this work. See if I can get get them all imagination, synchronicity, synesthesia, intuition and something else. Doesn't make any difference. Point on this is that part of doing this work is to realize that we are not limited by the senses that we are used to. And you know, we were talking about the dime, for instance. I mean, that's a connection between me and the advise saying that they love me. You're describing this phenomenon. To the universe. Show me a sign that, you know, I'm loved every time I see a dime heads up. That's a sign Yep, and you find 90% of the times you find her heads up or tails up. Sorry or the idea that you can smell colors Okay, so the first time that happens to you go what the hell That actually makes no sense to me Yeah, I don't really even understand. I don't understand how to interpret that It's like try to see out of your elbow, and I'm like, I can't even conceptualize. Let me go that means and Then you do Mm-hmm And then you do it you investigate it a little bit. Yes from for some help on how to interpret this stuff And then all of a sudden it makes sense. You're going oh The smell that was associated with that color means this blah blah blah It's it's pulling on In your internal metaphors and resources that you're not used to Putting together and it takes a while to make the connections, but they're made the one that I It takes a while probably the longest one for me was Intuition Now I everybody gets intuitive hits all the time, but do you trust them? Do you act on them? and There is a way, you know start with this small stuff and Then you begin to go oh, yeah that worked when I got this message this worked and You begin to trust it the more you trust it the more you use it the more you use it the Keyner it becomes and The more it comes into your life It's the same thing like all these skills that we have Hitting a baseball bat Baseball with a baseball bat. It's the same stuff. You just use it to all of a sudden you go Oh, if I drop my elbow You know I could probably hit that thing Other practices like these banal beads or these What is the heavy waves? What did you describe it as? Oh, it's called hemi sink hemi sink are there other ways Like this that you find to be productive when people are trying to do this because I've meditated before and It's it's pretty good Sometimes takes a while. Yeah, but like I sit there and I breathe and I try to release my thoughts I observe thoughts as they come this way faster It's way faster and it's much more accurate. Is it achieving the same state? No, it's not the same state Like if I trained meditator some type of like yep Hindu yogi that's sitting there And he's able to like enter this like theta state quickly and you can measure his brain and he's in this position By doing these types of things. Is this approaching that at all or is it completely separate type of practice? No, it's We tend to go to the same places and Truth be known Some of those frequency blends that I was talking about were reverse engineered They got they got ten yogis. They said go to the black place Where you're one with the universe and when they all went there, you know, they measured what what that specific brain wave was and then They said here's the frequencies that will make that frequency So some of them were just done by brute force They just kept changing the frequencies till they hit on what they wanted and some are reverse-engineered They're from with EMDR therapy. Oh, sure Yeah, does it function with any type of a similar cadence? Obviously, it's not audio, but it's a visual kind of thing They tend not to use visual. It's it's an audio technology Basically, which is heavy sink. Oh, I see yeah, but in your experience, they're understanding of MBR Are they similar? Do you is it? Oh, do I understand if the MDR is it it does the same sort of thing in terms of it It crosses hemispheres mm-hmm and establishes these neural pathways That do something to memory that take the bite out of memory. So if you have PTSD from Vietnam The sting of that Situation you weren't just goes away mm-hmm The memory doesn't go away, but the sting goes away right you can kind of reflect and interact with memories without the pain without the pain and kind of maybe untangle the web a little bit and then reintegrate back into regular reality with You're able to kind of have dealt with some things. Yep So I'm a a big fan of binaural beats for another reason and that is that once you learn the skill So I want to go into this state of expanded awareness If you do it four or five times you already know how to do it dump the headphones. You don't need a many more because you've trained your brain how to go there and Really all that's required is that you remember the feeling Poof you're back there. So you're never dependent upon binaural beats You do them to learn and then you can and you can Get rid of the training wheels now you described But when we were speaking before situations where you were interacting with people that have passed like a friend mm-hmm How did you achieve that state? Oh well In the in the obelisuse Monroe because He has a cosmology that is fairly specific and there's one there's a place called focus 21 He uses numbers because they don't carry cultural baggage. Yeah So a focus 21 is known as the bridge state and It's it's the last place in the physical world meets the first place in the non-physical world and so Entities who would like to communicate with you slow down their vibratory levels you speed your's up and you meet at the bridge And in my mind I I create a bridge and that's where I meet people And then but there's another frequency too. That's the area of life between lives where all of us hang out After we make our final transition and you can find people there too so and What it requires is you know putting on the headphones and Going through the preparatory process at the beginning so during a and a receptive state and Relax into it. That's it. And then what does the experience like so you picture what I tend to do is Like for instance if I want to talk to Nolan We have an agreed upon meeting place So in my mind, you know when I'm going into this I picture a park bench kind of like what you'd see here in central park You know with the little scrollies on the end of the wood slats So I put myself on On this park bench I sit down on this park bench and that's the signal for Nolan to show up in that I'd like to have a conversation with him and He shows up he sits down and and we do the the talky thing Pilepathy, you know we communicate back and forth. No, is it him or is it the energy signature of him? I believe it's him Could it be the energy signature of hampshire, but in is it a visual manifestation in your mind? Yeah, and it looks like it very clearly Yeah, wow And it's still seven-year-old him nope He shows up Sometimes he lets me know what he wants to talk about and Sometimes I'll go up there with something I want to talk to him about and based on the subject matter is how old he shows up So if it's about us fishing with worms and having a good afternoon, he might be seven You know go out to lake and get some croppies. That's fun We want to talk about Marriage or I had Very meaningful I'll quickly tell you this one one of the times I met with him He sat down and he was in a suit Black suit white shirt skinny tie got the clip, you know, so clearly. It's 1950s-ish, maybe early 60s when people were wearing it um And on his lap was a briefcase and he opened up the briefcase and in it was a gun revolver and He told me that in one of these lives that he is living now that he was I Think it was a Marshall like a US Marshall kind of thing and That even though he'd been trained for it, he had to kill somebody in the line of duty. And it was tearing him up. He really hadn't been able to deal with it like he thought. And so the two of us had a conversation about what it means to play that role in society to be the authority, the person with the license gun, to be able to have the permission to pull the trigger and at the same time what it means to take a life. And it's one of those times when I had a, it felt like a father's son conversation. It felt like he was trusting me with his heart and he's so important for our relationship for our ongoing relationship but it was just, it was one of those moments, I mean, I have no biological children. And this is as close as I'm going to do with a young boy child. Yeah, and then sometimes he's 50, I don't like today, or anything in between, it's what he wants to talk about, what I want to talk about is how he shows up and how often you talk to him or difficult question, situations like that, like once a month or something where it's, we sit down and have a conversation, but I have to tell you, he's like right here. He's like always around. It's like one of my little guardian angels, he's just, he's just present. Do you feel him now? Sure. Really? Yeah. What about friend? She goes in and out, interesting. Right now she happens to be very present in my life, but there are times where she was just like not around. But you would try to interact and, and she's just not there. And what I, what I took from that was, I was in a period of growth in my life and having her around, would have hindered that growth. And so she stepped back and said, you know, this is your deal right now. You're on your own. Yeah. Well, there's other people that will help me out, but that, that wasn't, it wasn't appropriate for her to be present. Well, this is also part of the next question, which is kind of a joke, but also semi-serious, you're married. Oh, yeah, does your wife have any issue with you interfacing with an ex lover in a different plane? Yes and no. No for the most part, we're, we've talked about this a lot. So is this, is this a conversation that comes up within this community in this world? Sure. And we, too, we till the veil starts to drop and you can talk to grandma and grandpa and, you know, all of those folks become much more accessible to you. That will be an interesting world. But Anne, she is the love of my life. No question, that woman has me, every fiber of my being is in loving that woman, she's amazing. And I would never do anything to jeopardize that relationship. And we talk about it, you know, at the beginning, especially because, you know, Mary Fran was in my life before Anne, well, you know, Anne was married before, so is, you know, we all have history and baggage and stuff. And we are here in this physical world to be here in the physical world. And I choose to do that with Anne. And I love her for it and she's very tolerant of this woo-woo stuff. Are there limitations to what can be done in this plan? So like, I'm not sure. In a pure hypothetical, okay, go for it. Pure hypothetical, not related to you or anyone else that's ever done this before. Let's say you were married to someone for 20 years and you love them, then they pass away. Could you go and interact with them in this other place through this type of meditative work and embrace them? Could you watch a movie with them? Could you kiss them further down the line of other types of sexual and humendo questions? Is there a limitation to what can happen here? Is it purely telepathic communication because there's a non-physical element? Yeah. Well, it's a non-physical element and yes, it's telepathic. It's also. I have meant only one person, my office mate actually, when I was teaching for the university system, my office mate, mentored dairy farmers, sold to the earth guy, rich bowman, you know, just really a lovely man. And his wife died unexpectedly. She just didn't wake up one morning and Rich was bereft. They'd been high school sweethearts and they'd been married 52 years and they were each other's soul mate and she's gone and he really had a hard time with it. And then one night he woke up and he was going down the hall to go to the bathroom and there she was standing in the hallway, caporeal. He said to her, "I had this terrible dream that you had died and left me." And Barb said to him, "I did die and they let me come down here to tell you that I'm okay and that you're going to be okay." In the whole time this conversation is going on, they're walking towards each other. And when they get to that part, I'm going to be and you're okay. They embrace and she was flesh-and-blood, caporeal. He embraced her. He could feel her embracing him back and then she dissolved in his arms. Isn't that a cool story? It's bizarre. I mean, what a strange thing to happen. And that's when every time something like that happens, I have to go and go, "Check, check, check, Scott." I always thought that the resurrection of Jesus was metaphorical. That's what they teach in the Presbyterian Church. And here's Rich, a guy who could know, there's no reason for him to lie or make this up. This was not his character. All of a sudden, he has the experience of his dead wife coming back in the physical. So who was to say Jesus didn't do it? And that Thomas really did stick his finger in his side. Was he a spiritual person before this? You said he mentored dairy farms, but was he a workmate in a consciousness sort of capacity? Was he doing this? No, he was a Southern Minnesota Lutheran, you know? What was his job? Oh, his job. We had similar jobs and I mentored small business owners and he mentored dairy farmers. Essentially, we were teaching him business skills. Wow. This person was, he was not like into this stuff, he was not a member of the Monroe Institute. No, he's a dairy farmer in Southern Minnesota who, you know, harvest hay on the side. How did his life change after this? Did he know you were into this? Oh, yeah. So he immediately goes to you and says, "Hey, the only person I can really tell about this." He must have told his granddaughter 'cause when he told me his granddaughter was present. Um, no, Rich, yeah, he knew all about dairy farming. He did meat inspection for the army, I mean, just a regular guy. He was just a really regular guy and, and had this extraordinary experience. How long after her passing did this happen, roughly six months? Six months. Well, it's like hard for me to really wrap my head around something like that happening. When these things happen, um, and you hear about them and you go, okay, I need to check my prejudices and I need to check to see what lens I'm looking at that experience through because if I sit there, you know, did my Presbyterian lens, I'd go, hey, that didn't happen. Sure. You know, I wonder if like he pulled out his phone and took a photo like what would have been on the photo. So too funny. He's telling me the story. He gets all done and I, and I look at him and I, and the first question my mouth was, well, who is they? Remember, he said, they sent me down here to tell you that I'm okay and you're okay. You're gonna be okay. I said, who's they? Rich looks at me and goes, Scott, I'm standing there hugging Barb. Do you think I care who they is? No. I was with Barb. And afterwards he said his grief just disappeared because she was okay. And she told him at some level that he got it, that he was going to be okay. He was going to be fine. And he was. He said afterwards he was that that whole deep grief that he was in just evaporated and he was able to carry on with his life. In this framework that you have is the spiritual world and the interactions that we have with these entities, spirits, whatever the word is. I don't know if the language is really doing a good job here. Is it always good? No. I guess I'm also kind of round about asking you about demons. Oh. Well, here's, I don't have any experience with demons, but I do have experience with this. And that is, when we train people to do meditation and you're going into the non-physical world, you will encounter things that will scare you. Think Harry Potter and the three-headed dog that's sitting on the trapdoor, if you remember that movie. Okay. So, you enter into the room and there's this three-headed dog who's barking and drooling and doesn't want to let you pass. One of the skill sets that we teach people is the skill set where when that happens, and people will say, "You know, I'm afraid of that dog." I said, "Let's rephrase that because I believe that you were startled by that dog and not afraid." There is a vast difference, and they would think about it and go, "Okay, I'll buy it startled, okay? I was startled by the dog." What does that mean? Well, it means that if you can step back and say to this three-headed dog, "Hi there. You just startled me. Clearly you are trying to get my attention because I was startled. You are trying to get my attention. What is it that you are trying to tell me?" What happens is, at least in my experience, that that three-headed dog morse, just like that. I don't know, some being in a brown cloak and dressed with a rope belt and birkenstocks or something, it will transform itself into some image that could be considered a guide. Whatever your guide looks like, this one might look like a monk, a brown robe, rope belt. Do you see the face? Sometimes. It's like a hooded—yeah, it's just father, somebody or other—and then father says something like, "Hey, I've been trying to tell you to go to this bookstore and pick up that book because you're going to really need it in your future resource, and you are not listening." So do you get it? That kind of smart allocate that way for me, and yep, I got it, but that is a critical skill set that when you're in that environment to step back and go, "I'm not afraid. I'm just startled and I need to figure out what's going on in this interaction." There you go, and turns out it's really helpful in the physical world, too. Is this different than a Ouija board? Ouija board, trying to talk to the dead, you know your friends, your hands on it, some entities that you're connected with. I much prefer guided meditations that have it, the front of them, affirmations of protection and guidance. That's way better than trying to connect with who knows what. Have you removed viewed? Yeah. I don't actually have decent edit, but it's not my thing. There are some things that are your things and some things that aren't, that's not my thing. What is removed viewing like and what were your most successful kind of hits, so to speak? Again, knowing this isn't your expertise, but. So remote viewing is essentially what you're doing is you're quieting the mind down to a really low level, so you're letting it just rest and relax, and then there's some sort of a prompt, something in an envelope or, you know, there's lots of different ways that people give you your target, but you get a target, and then it's so interesting because you'll get, you'll get symbols, and those symbols are, they're not of the thing, necessarily, they're like metaphors that are in your head, so maybe it's a bunch of lines, and then there's a, and there's a big circle, and then there's spots of light, and when you remote view, that's what you do. You don't interpret, interpreting is the death of remote viewing, so you write down, I got lines, I got a circle, I got spots of light, it's dark out, it's dark in here, you know, things like that. They're mechanical noise, okay, and that's all I'm getting. You could call those things all sorts of things, usually what you do in remote viewing is you turn it over to an interpreter, and they interpret what it is that you drew, and from those, that was the Ferris wheel, it's in downtown London, you know, the little lines were around the circle, it's nighttime lights on the Ferris wheel, so you know, how good a hit is that? 80% maybe, but they can come in, we were talking about the 10 senses, they can come in all kinds of ways, they can be visual, they can be auditory, like that sound of mechanical stuff, maybe there was a sense of movement, like, oh, I feel like I'm falling down, and then coming up, maybe it's an intuitive hit that you hear big bend, or somebody says something in a Cockney accent, I don't know, whatever, it's a, it's a remote viewing is the skill of having all of your antenna out there, and then letting whatever comes in describing it objectively and mean it. When I've done it, at least there's not much satisfaction, because it's like, "Oh, yeah, that's the Arch and St. Louis. You don't get to go there, you know?" What are you great at? Like what would you say if you were to go into the side games, so to speak, what would be like your event? Intuition is the thing that has developed for me most of the time. And how does that manifest? Do you give me an example? Oh, sure. How I knew I had a shared death experience. I'm working as the VP of sales and marketing for a startup biotech company, and I'm in a wood products conference in Portland, Oregon, now that's exciting, where I'm break. And I walk away from my booth, and I've got a couple hours before people are coming back again, so I go across the street, and there's a bookstore. And I walk in the bookstore, and it's like a freaking magnet. I go, and I walk over to the bookstore, I mean, to the shelves, and there's a little skinny black book, and I pull it off the shelf, and it's a little-known work by PMH Atwater, who's one of the world's premier researchers in the area of near-death experiences, 19 books on the subject. And in this little treatise, I open it up, and there's a paragraph that says, "Sometimes, people who are bedside with those making their final transition, go with them, and accompany them to the light and are able to experience what they experience or observe it." I didn't even know that was a thing. The only thing I knew about were near-death experiences, and in my case, I had no physical trauma. I was just sitting on a window sill. And here was somebody who nailed exactly what happened to me. How long after did you find the book from when the experience happened? Five years, ten years? Ten years, maybe? Wow. A long time. A long time, maybe even longer. But it was a new concept back then. She called it an empathetic near-death experience. It's language they're not using now. It's now called a shared-death experience, and coined by Raymond Moody. And it works great. Are these things ever unwanted? Are you ever getting experiences when you're not wanting them? Sort of kind of, you know, it's the, you see the, who's calling you on the phone, and you get the hit, oh no, something, something as bad as happened, and you pick it up and sure enough, somebody got injured in a car accident or something. Are those unwanted? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, it's just is. You got to find out some, sometime anyway. But you're not just all of a sudden getting a, going to a place when you're not expecting. Oh, yeah, like the World Trade Center or something and go, oh my god. Like horrific or even something, not as horrific, but it just happens to you at a time when you're not anticipating. You're daydreaming on a plane and all of a sudden you're blasted to a place. Yeah, no. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way for me. It's elective. Have you heard of cases where people are, sure, sort of almost encumbered with this? Yep, I have heard of that, and I feel for them, and they, and that's when it's like, please get a hold of somebody who can help train you so you can shut the doors. In those cases, did they open the doors or is it something that just happened to them? Just happened to them. So there's a, one of the world's foremost mediums is a woman by the name of Suzanne Geesman. Incredible medium and she kind of like me, her stepdaughter died and at the funeral she was looking at the casket and knew that her stepdaughter was available to be talked to, but she couldn't figure out how to do it and she meditated every day for a year until the door opened and then when it opened, she had people not only her stepdaughter, but other people saw the door open and they went, well, I, you know, I want to talk to my daughter. I want to talk to my son. I want to talk to my neighbor, but you know, all these dead people would come in and say, hey, please, you know, we want to use you as a conduit, yeah, yeah, and so she had to learn how to keep the door closed and would open it only when she wanted to and only the people who she wanted to come through would come through and so yes, there's a skill set involved and at the beginning it could be a little disconcerting and she wanted being trained in the UK where they have a long tradition of mediumship and there's schools over there that are just outstanding at teaching people how to do that and so she learned how to open, how to close, how to get smarter what it is they were telling her, you know, how to use metaphor as a way to transmit knowledge. I mean, fascinating. I'm engrossed, Dr. Taylor, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. I could chat with you all evening, but we have had fun. I've had a wonderful time. Thank you for the invitation. This has been just great. I would love to do it again. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you.