Hayley Williams

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is such a good one. You know, this is a guest who I wanted on since I started this podcast and I am such a fan. It is Hailey Williams, um, and a beautiful artist, an incredible singer, songwriter. You might know her from the band Paramora, but she's out with her third solo album, Ego Death at the Bachelorette Party. And um, she's just so special and we had such a good time. And um, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. We're going to talk about, um, working with David Byrne. We're going to talk about, um, you know, Wayne's world and how important of a movie it is. Um, we're going to talk about being short, pros and cons and we're going to warm up and warm down because that's what a person does when they take care of their voice. But most importantly, we're going to start this podcast like we always do. We're going to talk to someone who knows Hailey Williams and knows her well. And today we have Doug Peck. Now Doug Peck is a musical director, a teacher, voice teacher, if you will. He's also a train musician and pianist and he works with Hailey to get her voice just right. And I know him in a very special way too. So let's find out what that is. And let's get Doug on the line, hi, Doug. This episode of Good Hang is presented by Walmart Express Delivery, getting gifts to your doorstep in as fast as an hour. Who needs elves when Walmart Express Delivery can make nespresso machines magically appear on your doorstep? And if you do happen to forget something, no judgment, you can even order gifts up until 5 p.m. On December 24th, Santa, you might want to take notes. Download the Walmart app or head to Walmart.com and get your gifts delivered fast. Subject to availability, terms, and fees apply. Hi, friend. Hi, my queen, it's so good to see you. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this. And Doug, we could do an entire episode on your life, your talent. How did we meet? We met through our bodies, Kathryn Hahn and Rashida Jones. Both of their episodes were so good. We're two years ago at the Christmas season. We thought it would be fun to do some Christmas music together at Rashida's house. And you walked in and you're like, hi. When we instantly fell into a beautiful rapport, you so beautifully sang all the alto parts of all the Christmas carols we sang and I'll never forget you sang. It feels like the song is on some distant shore and we're the boat that's pulling away from it. Alto's. Give it up for Alto's. Poor one out for Alto's. Well, I realized we were like, we want to put together a choir because we were feeling like we wanted to do something communal and for the community. And then Kathryn said, I'm working with this incredible person named Doug. And then I realized much later, it was like saying, I know this woman named Julia Child, she's going to come and teach us how to make a chicken. Like we had the best of the best, we were so lucky. Well, thanks Kathryn for introducing us. Speaking of Julia Child, baby, let's get your head voice warm. Okay. Julia Child. Okay. So Doug, what should I do? Thank you. Backed in class. And then show us a little siren from low in your range to high in your range, back to low in your range. Good. Really good. Can you roll your shoulders while you do that and keep yourself nice and cozy comfy? Oh my God. My shoulders. And I forget. I have shoulders. I'm over the room. So they can relax. Doug is a good shoulder. - No, no. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no on Good Hang. Someone has a piano right below frame. Okay. So this is one of Haley's. Okay. Go ahead. Can you give it to me again, Doug? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey I go ahead, can you give it to me again, Doug? - Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Hey, how does that feel? And the way that you use, I mean, I want to talk to her a lot about that today, her voice is one of my favorites. I think when we met, I, when I found out you guys worked together, I kind of freaked out. And that's what I felt working with her for the first time was like, you're going to go to a session with Hayley Wives. It was like, great, I bet I'm going to learn as much as she is. What was that, what was that first session like? It's total love at first sight. Hayley is, you know, especially when someone's as incredible as she is when they're such an open student and a student of life. And just everything I've ever said to her, I feel like she just sponges it in. And she remembers something I said three years ago and will make a great sound. And she'll be like, oh, that reminds me of where warming up for the air is to over. And I like how that one sounded. Let's work on that again. And she's always willing to work on what she's great at as well as what doesn't come as easily to her. And she's such a Capricorn. She's always ready to climb that next mountain and this new album of hers is so incredible. It's so good. I know I have so many good night. Did you hear any of it when it was being like, did you she come in and say I'm working on the song? I want to practice this song with you. Yes. And then she's popped down in the couch. I was like, yeah, I know like two new songs you want to hear. I'm just like, yeah, I do. And then she's like, some of these are really low. We should probably work on that. I was like, I cannot wait, Hayley. Let's go. So that's interesting to me like a singer knows, okay, I'm going to have to perform these. And I'm going to have to work on figuring out how to get my voice to sing these all the time. That's right. And sometimes when they record, they've, you know, they've never done it live all the way through. And our sessions are the first amazing time. And so lucky we're like, okay, start at the beginning and sing it through and pick which backgrounds you want to do and which albums you want to do. And sometimes even great people like Hayley are like, whoa, this doesn't feel at all like it felt on the record. Let's find a way to do it live. And that's just such a joy. I always think about that. And I want to ask her. And I think she was very, has spoke about it in a really funny way, which is, you know, you write a song in your 20s that you then have to sing 10 years later. And it's a note that's like, you know, I want it. And it's like, damn, you got to hit that. I bet she regrets it. We're really proud of her because that was one that wasn't always in the Paramore performances. And she was determined to get it back in the set. We worked totally 360 on it with both the vocals and her confidence. How do you work on that? How do you work? And what is that note? By the way, Doug, let's hear that on the piano. What's that note? What's that note? And an E in that piece, top of her room, you know, really chesty belt and chesty belt. Oh, there's so much chest voice in it. And it's from the soul. And she gets her whole body behind it. And we worked on, you know, having her look up to her friends and the first balcony and have her whole throat be open while she makes those sounds. Knowing in her eyes that she's going to crush it when she takes the breath to do it. And then we're watching the reward and watching the audience reaction. It's just so soul-satisfying. She also does a lot of vocal cool downs. So after the show, we warm her voice back down and help it relax, which helps her with the next night. And helps her take a second to say, oh, yeah, I didn't do that really well tonight. Mike did use the proper technique to sing that. And also we've had fun days where she's like, yeah, I just wanted to scream. So I screamed that one. And we help help me. Help me like get my voice back. Yeah. He is after all the rock star. Well, I mean, it's I want to ask her about it. Just the idea that you have to keep your voice. I mean, I just, you know, when you lose your voice, you lose the show. The show is over. It's really an intense stress. What do you do? How do you help people not lose their voice? We have straws. We have straws in water. We do. What are straws do? We take a straw which gets proper closure and back pressure at your vocal folds. You have one. Somebody get me a straw. Watch this. I need a straw. There's no straw in here. I mean, they were never going to find a straw. Okay. So you get a straw. We're going to do a little proper. Okay. Oh, my God. There's a straw flying in. Jenna has a straw. Incredible. Thank you, Jenna. Is it a metal straw? Is a metal straw? It could be fine. It doesn't matter what it's made of. Because all you young people want the straws to be metal now. So you can't find a paper one. And do you have a little liquid in that mug you got there? I do. Are you going to spill it if you blow bubbles into it or is it going to have to? No, bubbles into it. You have to have to. Stick the straw in there. Okay. And just blow bubbles. Usually. Now do the same thing with the tones while you blow the bubbles. Oh, my God. Amy Paul is doing straw bubbles. That's a big thing we do in cool down to help the. voice reset. It's like a little massage for the vocal cords after heavy use. You know, it's so amazing. Now, honestly, having a podcast, I've realized, I see, like, I see what it does, even just talking when it does to your vocal cords and they need a lot of love. Well, we can help you come up with a warm up in a cool down before taping days. I'd love to do that with you. Doug, listen, I'd love that. And I'd also love to make every guest watch me do it and make them very uncomfortable while I take my time doing it. Okay, so Haley is coming in today and I hope I don't, as the kids say, glaze her too hard, but I just, I love her. You probably will. I know. I love her. What do you think is a question that I should ask Haley today that she doesn't get asked or that you'd want to hear or, you know, think it would be a good thing for us to talk about. Okay, I thought it too. So you could decide if you want to do one or one, you know how like Batman has the bat symbol in the sky? If there was going to be a symbol in the sky to summon Haley Williams, what would it be? What an incredible question. So creative. And then the other one is, you know, everybody has like, what's your last meal? I want to know what is the last song she wants to hear before she dies. I mean, so emotional. Yeah, welcome. What is the last song you want to hear before you die? Whoa, that's a heavy answer too. That's so cool. I mean, I want to think about that for myself too. I know the ones I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear like elevator music or like the sound of a carousel. I try to think about what I don't want to hear. You don't want to be bored. You don't want to feel like a clown. As I finish, you have worked with a lot of great women. Yes. Who have you had the privilege to work with? You know, some days Amy, I'm like, oh, it's an all-girl schedule. I'm so happy. So it could be a Catherine Han, Patty Lupone, Billy Eilish, Haley Williams, I've worked with Phoebe Bridgers a lot lately. Oh, you're working with her today, not to brag, but you told me that. That is true. Thank you for making the scheduling work. We'll work around Phoebe. That's a good start. I'm working with Rico nasty these days and Lauren Mayberry from Churches and lots of up and pumping people, including, by the way, Haley is the biggest music fan in the world and she's always scouting. And every once in a while she'll discover somebody and she'll tell me or she'll tell her manager to tell me, like, make sure Doug does a lesson with that person because we want that person to start getting ready to tour and sing all the time. So some of the great people you haven't quite heard of yet, but you will. I'd a student record her tiny desk concert today and you to Rousseau. Oh my gosh. That's exciting. Well, I love you. I love seeing you. I miss you very much. I hope we get, you know, we should let everybody know that our choir was called the something-something singers and we did two shows. We did it for the motion picture academy, the retirement home in LA and we did it for LA Children's Hospital. Can I show you my Haley Williams tattoo? Yes. That is Haley Williams on stage at the Ares tour, spitting in the air in her trans rights top. I was like, I fucking love this one so much. So Doug, you know, we don't ever get any talented pianists here. So could you finish our time by just playing us out? I'm going to give you a little bit of true believer, which is my favorite on this true believer. Here we go. Do you like gadgets? I like gadgets and I like them even better when I have them delivered from Best Buy on Uber Eats. I know crazy, but when you use promo code Best Buy 30 on Uber Eats, you can get $30 off all the must-haves this holiday and honestly, you'd be crazy not to. Everything from a PS5 to Nintendo Switch, even a Dyson Air Wrap, all the best gifts delivered right to your door and sometimes I actually give them to people instead of keeping them for myself. Get all your must-have holiday tech from Best Buy on Uber Eats and save $30 on orders of 100 or more with promo code Best Buy 30. Ends 1231, Terms Apply, see app for details. Haley Williams is here. So happy that you're here. Oh my God. I feel like I've waited for this my whole career, my whole life. I've been making music for 20 years so that I could finally get to you. Wow. You know what? This is I'm flushing because when we made this podcast, we were like talking about dream guests and you were one of them. Oh my God. I really don't know what to say to that. Okay. Well, you better figure it out. I'm going to think about it. We're rolling. No, we were talking about having you on today and okay, I'm kind of nervous. I'm such a fan. I'm such a fan. Thank you so much. And as a kid, Sam, I'm just going to glaze you. I'm going to glaze maybe. Glazing. Glazing. It's going to be a glazed fast. Oh, glazed you back. Are you on some kind of tour right now like you're on? Well, like basically a promo. I mean, this has been really nice. I feel like I've only had I've only had to do the stuff that's been like I've really felt excited to do. But you know, it's like being on can it's just I just feel like I'm on the internet all the time and I so I won't be on tour until next year and by that time, I hopefully I have a dumb phone and I just don't see the internet or I mean, your Jen has an interesting relationship with the internet. Yeah. It is like a love hate relationship. It is a love hate. I'm really addicted to it. Me too. It sucks. I feel like I thought maybe my generation was more addicted than you guys. Really? But you guys are the most weed. Well, I mean, how old was I when my mom was a teacher? So like a public school teacher like you grew up. Did you go up going to her classrooms and stuff? Yes. It was the best. Okay. What kind of teacher was your mom back then? She was teaching elementary school like second and third grade. And I never she was never my teacher, but I went to that school and same. It's funny to have your mom as a teacher in the school. Did you hang out at the school afterwards? Yeah. We often got there early if we were going in with her or we'd stay after. And you kind of like see the other teachers. Yeah. After school, which is a trip. It's such, it's like, it's like mean girls when they see Tina at the mall. Yeah. She can and see Tina at the mall. Yeah. It really is like that. I read that resonated with me deeply. I know it does feel like you're like peaking behind the cards. Yeah. Very, um, like don't look at the wizards. Right. Yeah. Okay, when you came in, you asked about a mutual friend that we have. Yes. Yes. So we do have a mutual friend and he's the most loveliest guy ever. His name is, what is his dogpeg? So, um, we have a thing on this show where we, um, at the beginning of each episode, we kind of talk well behind our guests back and we talked to somebody who knows them and get and get a question from them to ask you and we talk to dogpeg today and he gave me a vocal warm up for us to do shut your mouth. I, this is the best day of my life. Okay. And he, and I kind of forget what he said. Okay. Maybe I can, maybe I can pick up on it. I'm also amazingly had a piano right under frame that he started to play and was the first I come over. But because I was like, Doug, I'm excited to talk to Haley and he's like, okay, and he gave us, he gave, he said, one of your favorite warmup is is that like, um, well, I think it's like free to do it. But it was like, huh? Oh, yeah. Oh, is it, it's like with your belly because I really have trouble connecting to my diaphragm sometimes. He asked me, how is your body feeling? And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Okay. So let's do it. Okay. So, um, yeah. So feel your, feel your belly kind of bounce when you. Okay. Then you can add notes to it. So like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. Yeah. That's it. It really wakes up this whole like everything. It does. Yeah. It really helps. We were just talking today about you. And I mean, there's just, it's hard to not start with your voice because your voice to me, um, and here comes the glaze. Your voice to me is it is its own country. It's like, it has such an incredible history. Like, I feel like I've been a fan of it and you and your work for so long and I've watched it change and I watch and what I love about this new record, which I love, um, um, ego death at a bachelor at party is the way you kind of play around with your voice in a comfort, in my opinion, a confident way as someone who feels like they're ready to just kind of like see where their voice goes and play around with it. So I guess my first question to you is when did you form a relationship with your voice? Well that's a cool question to think about. I think young, I was remembering this not too long ago and I think this must be it. I would go to church with my mom and my with my family as a kid and I was I was a very anxious stressed out little kid and my mom and I kind of you know she was in a not great marriage. She was my mom's second marriage and I think I just had anxiety a lot. So we would go to church and everyone would sing out of the hymnal and they're not fun songs to sing right? Sure. You know it's it's boring when you're a kid especially and but I noticed that my stomach ache would go away and I I couldn't explain it but I just I started singing I started singing more to the hymns along you know along with the hymns at church and it just soothed me you know it like I think it grounded me and it slowed me down and then obviously you know all these many many years later and everything that I I love to learn about the body and and especially what what doing like body keeps the score type stuff. I'm really interested in that and reading about how the voice can tone the the vagus nerve and which controls so much of this this anxiety stuff and how we regulate it makes perfect sense but I included that as a I must have I mean God I must have been like eight or nine years old it's really even just doing that thing we just did rightly even the exhalation of breath even that yeah is it is major when you actually do it you realize oh I've been holding my breath oh my God yes I mean and I do a lot of sighing around the house and I used to just think that was my personality like you know as if I was over it but I realize it was just an exhalation of anxiety that was just basically it I was just trying to get some breath out and you were soothing yourself like your system by doing it yeah it's I love that science I just that's endlessly fascinating and Doug because he's a somatic voice coach we do so many things that I think if you've never done that kind of work from the outside would look really weird and I get up and I move around a lot during our lessons you're making me think of two things one which is I often say and I've said on this podcast like when I get to a party and I'm anxious I like to dance and I realize it of course I like to just do exactly that kind of thing like shake it out that's good but the other thing is and I want to talk to you about performing you have written a lot of songs where you have to just like get to this note that maybe you wrote 20 years ago yeah I mean you know some version is like okay I could you know like I gotta get to it and I was saying to Doug it like it's it's really hard to it's like a high dive where everyone's you know and I'm thinking specifically of a couple moments like all I wanted yeah oh my the anxiety okay but that's Doug but talk to us about like for example the journey of and for people who don't know there is an amazing song a pair more song and it hits a note that is like so satisfying for you to get what is what is the note of that is it a I actually don't know no and I don't know my usually my my sweet spot of like not too high and I can do keep doing this throughout a show is around see a see an E above middle C which is like so if middle C's in the center of the piano you're like right here so could you could you whisper that sound you don't have to sing it but could you so is it like like from the song no but it's like yeah I don't have perfect pitch so I don't think I could like what I don't think I can pick it out out of the out of thin air but let's just guess and Doug can be at home and he can tell us I'm sorry I have a laptop too I can oh yeah yeah yeah okay so what's our what's the note we want we want see above middle C because I didn't even know that exists I think E is kind of where I end up belting a lot of paramour songs but I think all I wanted might be higher than that and that's why it's always scared me because it's just my muscle memory so it's it's it's gotta be higher than that see above middle C but I think that E I think that E is the one move I want to try E above middle C yes E above middle C let's go higher I think it's gonna catch on fire okay here we go E above middle C I think this is it okay no that's a lower one that's a lower and that's mid piano note I'm so sorry why do I think all I want I think all I wanted is higher than this yeah he did it to you come to a voice lesson let's get this down okay so you bet you the journey of and and I let thank you for letting me digress into this before stuff but but talk about like so you've got this note for example and note like that and you're driving to it and you want to sing it on tour and you're deciding like okay I want to make sure I want to bring this back in and how do you then train for that moment oh I'm I mean a lot of warming up and warming down after shows I already I've already heard about warming down down do you ever do it like do you know I I'm learning I really hope okay can you read music no I did maybe for a few years in my life when I took piano but I got so bored with the theory part I just wanted the play shit that I wanted to sing along to yeah so yeah it's really I really regret it when I listen to someone like Doug talk about theory and and spout off these you know this stuff that's so inherent to him as an artist and as a teacher it's like dang I really should have stayed in piano lessons but it feels like everybody who who quit who quit feels that way like it would have been cool if I just kept along with the flute I would have been such a badass I read can you play any instruments no can you I can play a few a few chords in guitar like a song or two in the piano and I used to play flute when I was a kid you did yes and imagine if I could flute a chic I mean maybe but you know what I liked about the flute the most embarrassing part of what it's cleaning it cleaning it so sorry but at the end you were like I played it and look I didn't take it apart I took it unscrew it and you had to clean all the parts in your special brushes and you put it back in the flute case and you were like no it's clean has this this this translate to like other parts of your life do you like to clean and organize oh yeah very much so very much so it's like it's like um it's like a way to like quiet and like the tiki tacky my brain is just like oh yeah it's clean and it's in the box you gotta take that up okay so little Haley's singing in church then you're but you know how to play guitar piano how do you learn that now I know how to play guitar but back then I think I probably only know how to play piano and I was learning to play the drums um you know I saw one video of Zach Hanson on the television when I was a kid and I was like now I gotta play drums and um I yeah I started playing eventually and I I would play it church you know like I think my experience of music when I was living in Mississippi was just so much at church because no friends I didn't know anyone at school that wanted to play music um but you know there was access to instruments and things at the church so anyone who tends to see you when you're when you're a teen yeah and that kind of changed everything I kind of blew my world open I mean I met Zach who's our drummer the first day of this home school program that my mom put me in I could I tried to go to public school I was such a nerd I really got bullied so I didn't make it very long here so okay I when I think about it now I'm like it was my mom and I were on such an adventure we had run away from Mississippi this was like you know the the great white world and I I didn't really again I got to this public school and I was like well none of these there's like one golf kid at the school that like we'll talk to me about music and that was it and then I met Zach the first day of this other program and he was like you gotta come here me and my brother's band and he's younger than me and I'm going like oh there there are people my age that that like to make stuff and they they see the world a little differently and I'm not crazy I think it's always tender when bands come together that first part because it's like what do you like what do you like and you guys were especially young we were so little you who did you you know you kind of trade bands with each other to just test taste who did you guys both like say that you liked you know and those early years like I think Zach already have this he already knew of a different world of music that I was not exposed to yet and he kind of showed me that and it was bands like failure it was bands like um and you will know us by the trail of dead. - Yes. - You know, like it was hum who are playing shows next year. I just found out I probably won't get to see 'em 'cause I'll probably be on tour. But I know when you're on tour, you can't do anything. - I can't do anything. Even like you bring out a band that you love that you want to hang out and watch and you're just like warming up while they're on stage, you know? (laughing) - You miss it. - But Zach just love, I mean, Zach is the reason that I knew Elliot Smith's music as a really young kid. And, you know, I remember him making me mixed CDs. So I got such a cool education really fast. He had two older brothers that also liked cool music. - A lot of people learn their music from their older siblings. - Yes. - Yeah. - And I didn't have any older siblings. - Older siblings. - Older daughter. - Yeah, I knew it. - Oh my God. - Capricorn too, I heard it. - Are you Capricorn? - No, I'm a Virgo, but earth sign. (laughing) - Earth sign, and I'm a Virgo moon. - Ooh, I have a lot of video moon. - That's why I have this podcast. - Oh my God, it makes so much sense. - I must get some attention. - So for people who don't know, like you, you met the people that would become members or founders of Paramora when you were a teeny-tiny baby in high school. And you've been with this band for 20 plus years, touring all the time, making records all the time. And this record is your third solo record. And what is so interesting to me and getting back to a question about your voice is what is the difference between being the lead singer and a band out on stage performing and being yourself performing without the band behind you? - Is that not the million dollar question? I do not know. - Right? - Because it's a completely different set of skills. - It is, I'm very, I'm finding myself, 'cause we're planning shows for next year. I'm finding myself really nervous, 'cause I think I, for my own good, really need to understand who I am outside of the band. It's time, I'm like, I'm looking at 40, it's not that many years away. And I'm just like, I should probably know who I am outside of this entity. And I'm really, I'm very excited for shows. And I do think that it might possibly subvert some people's expectations of, you know, what they think they're gonna get when they see me on a stage. - What do you think people think they're gonna get? - I think that with Paramore, I feel, and especially in the later years, like more recently, there's been some kind of thing I've noticed, this feeling I've noticed that I very much feel like a ringleader. And that's not always a positive thing. I feel that like it's a huge responsibility to be a mouthpiece for a group of people. - That's right. - We're all very different individuals. And like, I want to speak for myself. - Yeah, that's what I'm noticing. - I love that. And it's also, I have a version of a similar experience in that when I was in a sketch group coming up. - I read about this. - And I was the only girl. - Oh. - Not that that matters, but it's something. - I think it totally matters. - It's something. - So I really get it that you want to then decide, okay, that's something I've practiced and done, and I want to try something new. - Yes, yeah. I feel like I'm really enjoying this part of my career, because I actually feel like for the first time in my career, I'm talking to women. Growing up, there was just no women around. - There wasn't a lot of women when you were on Warped Door. (laughing) - No. - You didn't even have a real great gang backstage. (laughing) - It wasn't so many that you could chill with and talk about. (laughing) Like there were some really amazing ladies in the production office. - Of course. - But then I was also like, you know, I mean, I was like pushing gear with the guys on a skateboard down a hill across to Maryweather Postpavilion. You know, like I wasn't hanging out in the production office. - Yeah. - I really think it is something to be the only girl. - It is. - And a gang. - It is. And it's also like, you wanna feel, you know, we could talk about this part forever. And you would be the person be able to talk about it with. But it's like, how does your, the gender that you identify as, how do you sublimate it through your work? How do you like, kind of push it aside? How do you play around with it? Like I feel like you have really cool ways in which you kind of play around with the mask and femme side of you. - Oh, thank you. - But it's, but it, sometimes you're just, you need like the space to be able to do that, basically, and the safety to be able to do that. - The safety, that's the, that one hits me more. I think I, the, the, the era that we grew up in, and I know I've already referenced me in girls one time, but. - You think about like that time. - Technically, contractually, you have to. - Yeah, two or three of us. - Okay. We've done two of us, so you're good. - Okay. - I owe Tina a lot. - You're not gonna get a phone call. - I'm brilliant. - I like, that was a time in, in culture. - Yeah. - That I do, I think more conversations were starting to happen, but to be, whatever age I was, 14 I think. - Oh, baby. - Yeah, I was a baby, and I was in that age range, you know, of all these people and, and like watching these social, like this, you know, this construct that happens. I feel that, once I entered the band world and, and the, the music, the climate, you know, especially for like, Indy and, and more like, punk sub-genre's. It didn't feel safe to be a young girl. Maybe if I was an older woman, I would have felt differently, but I really shirked any, any aspect of me that was remotely feminine, and it, I didn't know this, but it really hurt me. Like, I did it to myself. No one asked me to do that. - Well, a lot of, we all did it. A lot of us did it to ourselves. - 'Cause you're scanning, right? You're always scanning for the dangers, and unfortunately in the, in the industries that were both, and there's a lot of them. - Yeah. - And I, I think it took me until probably, I remember writing very neutrally, like, in terms of my point of view, like, I never want to give away, lyrically, that, you know, this is a young girl's point of view. - Yeah. - You know, trying to be smart enough to make that happen, but it was probably like our fourth album, which I would have been in my early 20s by that point, where I started to play around with my femininity more, and I wasn't so ashamed of it. And, you know, if I ever felt sexy, I didn't, like, push that feeling away. - Yeah. - And I, you know, because of that experience, I'm, now I'm 36, and I'm still noticing places where there's a lot of rigidity around my femininity, and I talk to my friends about this a lot. I don't, I mean, it's just kind of unfolding day by day. I, you know, you go through rough things in your life, and I think each time I come around to an obstacle, I'm like, okay, how do I do this better than the last time? I did, I went through something like this, and somehow femininity is always at the core of the issue. - I so feel you. I feel like it's like a lot of deep programming. A lot of like being just what you said, a little bit curious, not so judgmental, just if you're 10% more aware of anything you're doing, you're hanging in there, 'cause it's, you know, you can't like judge yourself for what you didn't know. - Yeah. - When you were on tour, was there any women that come to mind that were kind of guiding lights, or, you know, people that you met along the way that kind of felt like, oh, I'm gonna take a, I'm gonna notice them, and I'm gonna kind of pay attention what they're doing and I'm gonna learn from it. - Yeah, the second year we were on Warped Tour, Joan Jett and the Black Hearts played on the main stage, like the whole summer, which is a brutal summer. It's a long tour, and I would catch them anytime I could, and we ended up in a photo shoot together for I think it was for Billboard, and I kissed her on the cheek, I'm very shy. I don't, if I, like if we weren't doing this, I don't know when I would have ever met you. - Like I don't, 'cause I'm so, I just know, I never wanna bother people, and I am quite shy when I'm not on stage, and I, I don't know, we were staying next to each other, and I just kissed her on the cheek, and I remember being like, I love her. And I didn't know anything about her other than she was in the runaways, and I had a runaways poster on my wall as a teenager, but I thought she was, I thought she was just, I liked her masculinity. - Yeah. - I liked that she wasn't embarrassed to have that side of her as a woman, and she was also very sexy. So that was probably the first woman that I really, like performer, that I was really around for like an extended period of time in my young, in my early career. And then, you know, I just this year I met Kathleen Hannah, and I told her, I was like, I just, I haven't had many of these conversations, and it's so validating, so it's so validating, by the way to read books like your book, and Kathleen's book, and read about women. I, you know, I have a, my mom and my granny are like these incredible women in my life that I've learned so much from. My mom and I are like really close an age and all that, but I, I learned, we have so much grace for each other and I'm very thankful for those relationships but I didn't have anything outside of my family to really like soak up wisdom from other women. It's like the proximity of them. And you must have felt that on the Aristotle. Like you got to be around all these incredible women and incredible woman at the helm and you just got to feel what it feels like to be in that matriarchal simulation. Totally, it is a different feeling altogether. I mean, there was a time too where we would go a whole year and I wouldn't see another girl on stage. And now that we have the power to make those choices, it's so nice to get to be intentional about that and to think about the conversations you might get to have backstage and what I might learn or what I might be able to offer for another artist that's maybe like the Linda Linda's. I love those for love. I love them and I just think that they're so smart and they're so politically aware and not afraid. I think that it's very not a healing for me to see young, teenage people be so bold about what they believe in and really confident in their playing and how they perform and that their friendships. It's really healing to see that. Well, you probably, I mean, I have a couple questions about the Aristotle and their practical questions. They're like, what is it like to perform early in the day? I love it. It sounds amazing. If I never, I've already told the team like if we get festival offers, please, don't make me play after the sun starts to go down. I completely agree. Nothing good is happening out there when the sun goes down. First of all, you can be done by what, 8/30? I want to have a normal dinner. A normal dinner. This is what Tina and I go on tour and we do like four o'clock and six o'clock shows. What? The baby, you can do a four o'clock show. I mean, you're the boss, so you can. And guess what? People are going to show up. And you can say to them. I'm going to show up. You can say, in good night, enjoy your dinner and they're like, I'm in bed by 7/30. Oh, my God. That is incredible. I mean, I did do that on the air. So you had a long stretch when you were with them in a bunch of different cities with Taylor Swift on the airstore. What did you do after the show? Well, when we were in the UK, I loved this because, you know, BBC. No, not BBC E4. I can't remember what channel it is, but they play Gogglebox. Have you watched Gogglebox? Yes. I've heard of Gogglebox. Oh, my God. This is my favorite show of all time. I just loved it. Explain to people what it is for people who don't know. Imagine Amy and I are like, we're watching television together and all these cameras are still here, which honestly sounds terrifying. But like, it's just families and friends watching TV like commenting on what they're seeing. And some of it is like, you know, soap opera type shit and other times it's like Boris Johnson. Yeah. I often see some clips of like heavy, beautiful scenes where like a young teen is coming out to his parents and then they'll show all the different reactions. And I think like, oh, this very blue collar family is going to have a tough time with it and they don't do. Oh, my God. England is just full of angels. Well, according to Gogglebox. Yeah, according to Gogglebox. According to Gogglebox. It's very, it's very wholesome. Yeah. And I love to just. I can see that. I'm glad of your two and just sink into have, you know, have some room service around. It was. Let me watch what people are watching. Okay, so you would like watch TV? Yeah, I would. After, you would chill out. You would not go out. We went out some. We had a lot of days off too. And we would like, my favorite days were Portugal. We were in Portugal for like four days before the show started. And we did one day on like this little boat, the guys and I all went out, our crew, everybody. I think that was like 40 of us, maybe 30 of us total. And we went out. And we're not talking about like a yacht situation, but it was very cute. And we went out and we swam. Well, the guys swam and then we found out later. It's like a really not a good idea to swim in that water. And you had the instinct to not go in? Yeah, I don't want to be cold. I'm not a cold person. You don't remember doing like a cold plunge or any of that? You love a cold plunge. I know this about you. And look how you're ready. I thank you. And it's not about the skin, although that's a nice bite. The skin is all care about it. The inside can be rotting off. Let my skin go, please. Okay, it's good for inflammation. Oh, shit. I know. I don't want you to tell me that. And you don't have to do it. You never have to do it. Maybe soon. I think it has an honestly, it's really helped with anxiety and depression. Really? Yes, because it talk about somatic. It flips on. You're like a fighter flight. Oh. It flips on some kind of, oh, no, I'm going to die. I'm so cold. But how does that help? Because the high when you're still alive. [LAUGHTER] Have you ever, like, thrown up on steam? I've never thought I'd been on steam. I actually don't think I've thrown up from a show. That's amazing. I blacked out on stage at ACL, like the last album cycle, but I didn't pass it. I blacked out. A pink pantherist was on stage singing "Misery Business" with us. And I had this moment where I was like, I just went out for two seconds. And I came back. It turns out I was sick. So I found that out later. But other than that, I've only had a few instances where there was one time, Mexico, a festival, a Mexico city. I almost shit my pants through up and blacked out at the same time. I almost didn't ask. I didn't want to be rude, but I mean, how, after so many shows, have you not-- How am I not shit my pants? I really don't. I mean, I assume-- No, no, no, no. Pretty much every singer I see, I assume that they've-- Shit, they're friends. Not on stage. I mean, there's nothing you do about it. I think it's like when you're on your period and you go in the water, apparently. It just goes up. I think that's what happens on stage with me. It's just like, we're not doing this. Yeah. Wait until after Mitch. Women are incredible. Women are so strong. Women, most of the time, don't shit their pants. Yeah. Most of the time, that's incredible. That's like a guy, baby. Actually, sorry. That is true. I don't know. I don't know any women today that have pooped their pants once. I need no one here in the studio today. Today, no one. We should just all try it together once so we can know. But it is. It is. It's super physical. And then the other-- I have so many-- Because I feel like there's a version where one must disassociate and just be in your world and sing. And other times where you want to feed off of the eye contact from people. And is that just-- you're just always adjusting with that or-- Yeah. I don't know if I'm fully present to that awareness when I'm in it. Yeah. But I get such a rush. I mean, especially at a Paramore show, I usually recognize a lot of the people in the front. So we'll have a relationship then throughout that show where I'm like, I know you. I've seen you a million times and you're with me. But then I'll spot other people and I can-- I can really feed-- it's almost like I intuit what the song means to them. I'm not thinking about what it means to me anymore. It's so healing. It's very liberating, actually, because I love to write about stuff that'll just make you so depressed. I need to get that out. So to have an experience with other people that takes it away from me is really-- I really need that, I think. What's a song or a lyric or a moment that has been given back to you by a fan, by someone in there singing it back to you that's changed the meaning of what you wrote? Oh, wow. Because that's a very cool thing you just brought up. I didn't even think about it. To me, my question was going to be what does it feel like to pass around all these feelings to people so that they can all-- they can all have their feelings about it and become detectives about it. But I realize there must be a gift also in the way people sing the song back to you, tell you what they feel about the song that it must change the meaning of the song. It really does. Does anything come to mind? Well, the first one that comes to mind is this song called Last Hope from our fourth album. We had a self-titled record that came out when Zach left the band. He left the band with his brother who started the band with us when we were teenagers. And it was really Taylor and I were writing and I was-- we were both really sad. And I just kind of also felt like, I mean, what does a band matter? I really was feeling so existential about the whole thing. And I can't remember-- it's the lyric in the bridge. It's like the salt in my wounds isn't burning. It doesn't burn quite as much as it used to. I can't remember exactly the words right now, but I just remember writing it and being like, this is so sad and unfortunately is how I feel. And I've really struggled with my mental health and kind of like, you know, I've wanted to not be here plenty of times. And that song kind of expressed that in the moment for me. Having that at a Paramore Show, that moment, and feeling like everyone in the room has-- survived so many different things. And we're all here. Half of us will never see each other again. It really does something to those types of songs where I wrote them in such isolation. And now here I am having to like not only be witness, but bear witness to all these other experiences that are that have coalesced. And people are just physically joyously singing that back to you. And being like, thank you for writing that thing. Like, do joy is really joy is a is a is a tough emotion for me because I don't trust it. I always think it's gonna the piano is gonna fall from the sky is what I say to me. It's just gonna hit me when I least expect it. And I think that's why Paramore shows at least for me that they feel so joyous because I'm I'm relying on a lot of other things. I'm not thinking so much about my own experience. And when we can transcend our own experience like for me joy becomes more tangible. It's like, I'm not controlling what's happening anyway. Yeah. And this thing is being offered up. We're all kind of creating this energy together. And we just get to reach up into and pull it down into our hearts. And it's like, it's very wholesome. It's it is. I mean, it's very primal. Yeah. It's very primal. Singing with other people like just the frequency of that in a room is powerful. Yeah. Can we talk about being short? Can we please fucking talk about being short? Both five two. According to Wikipedia, are you a are you a natural five two? Yeah, I am. In fact, one time I did the whole insurance thing. They come. They take your blood and all that stuff. And they were like, you're five three. And I never let it go. It's on my driver's license. Five three is on my driver's license too. Because they measured me at five three, which I'm not a five two. But I was like, and they're like five three. And I was like, okay. Thank you. Oh my god. I was so relieved actually thing about being five two. And what's the bummer? Well, so so my friend Daniel that I made the record with is probably like six three. I don't know because anyone over a certain item like just a building. I don't like, I don't know. I'm just walking through New York every day of my life. But he we were we were standing on like a porch of a house that was kind of like on a hill. And then there were chairs. And I was like, you're way up there, man. Like you're like, we're already standing atop this little hill. And so I got on the chair and I stood next to I stood on the chair next to him where I was even with him. I felt so vulnerable to the elements. I was like closer to the sun. This is not where I want to be. No, too windy up there. It's too windy. I don't like to be cold. Yeah, and I hate wind if I'm being honest. Yeah, get down under, get down back into your turtles. I just I just I really felt scared for like a few minutes. So I tip over. I don't know how to tell people don't tell me tip over that. And it's like not our business what's happening. No, it's not our business. What's up now? I don't want to know. It's like if something's important, shout it down. But we don't need to go. Yeah, I mean, really though I I I do though when I'm shopping, I hate being short. It sucks. It's so embarrassing. Every pair of pants you look like a little kid like like swishin' around in the morning. It's really every nothing fits. Nothing is made for short. It's shorties. It's really not. And now that I'm getting a little bit older, I'm like learning about like if my torso is the right length and if this were on my body, I'm just like I don't want to know. Do you have anything on your body that's long? My dick. But it's also really wide. Yeah, which is like what do I do with this? Ladies love it. I just never always told you. I didn't know it. And then prepare for one more glaze. Okay, I'm ready. Well, actually, I don't know if this is the last glaze, but prepare for another glaze. But you you are an artist that other artists male and female feel like like you are a lot of people's favorite artists, favorite artists. Oh my god. They love working with you. They have huge tender feelings about being in your orbit. They on stage feel very like they're kind of loving you in real time on stage. And you've worked with a ton of people who love working with you and would you know, we'd be able to get 20 people to talk about how much they love you. Who right now? Like who do you? Who are your people right now that when you get to see them perform with them, be with them, they feel like they're part of a peer group that like lift you up and support you or people that are up on that you're hoping to support and and bring along for the next ride. Man, well, I got to perform with the Linda Linda's in London. And I felt really proud of them. I get to I get to do more stuff with David burn this year. And I know that's going to feel like it's weird. It's interesting because Linda Linda's are younger than me. Yeah. David's older than me. Well, that's what I feel like being in your mid 30s feels like as you're really feeling a little in the middle in the middle. Yeah. And you know, if you know, if you're 20s or a figure out what you want to do, then your 30s are kind of figure out what you don't want to do. And so you're kind of letting go of things and aren't working for you anymore. But that vacuum gets filled with cool stuff like in your looking ahead and back. I mean, what do you think your 30s feel like? I have felt like honestly enjoying you talking about it because I 30s are weird. Like it's especially the middle of my 30s. I still felt very young in my early 30s. Like I still felt very what's the difference between 28 and 32. I felt like it was all the same. Something happened at 35. I started seeing myself like seeing pictures and being like, Oh, that's different. But I also still feel sprightly and have energy and almost like a renewed passion that makes me want to like live it all up. Yeah. It's just a I didn't expect 30s to be like this. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I want to know what did you expect 30s to be like, is it funny when we're young? Like when I'm like, what feels old? Because I'm here to tell you I'm 54. I don't feel any I don't feel old. But when I was a young person, if someone was like, she's 50, it would be like, oh my. That's the oldest number, I guess it is. And it's so funny here to tell you from like just I sent you a dispatch from 54. I don't feel that different. It really excites me. Yeah. It excites me because I see like because being 36 when you say 54, maybe this is the age where like that doesn't sound old to me. That doesn't that doesn't scare me. I think it sounds better than 36. And I think it's harder to be in the middle. Yeah. The middle. The middle's hard. Hell is the hallway. Hell is the whole life is a highway. But hell is the hallway. We just wrote a whole song. No one's ever in any of those words. Okay. And then the last thing I say is that I see in the music world what happens a lot in the more like actor comedy world, which is women who are very, very different are kind of asked to be a member of the same group. And they're all really different with different styles, different ways of approaching things. But you have an incredible you're in an incredible time right now for just women in music. They're just dominating. Oh my God. And so many styles. Exactly. Yeah. I'm really enjoying watching women on stages right now because of what you said. It's it's so many different personalities. I I am I love. Man I can pussy. I think. Yeah. They're amazing. They're amazing. And singer talk about voice. Yeah. Yeah. And we just connected over like just over DMs. And missy was talking about losing her voice. And we were kind of like key key and about that a little bit and talking about this initiative that she was she told me about it's no music for genocide initiative. And it's just so nice again to talk to other women and music that like we don't have to be doing the same thing. We don't have to like the same music. Like we can be on completely different sides of the musical landscape. But it I feel so much less alone by engaging in it. Yeah. And I just it's so exciting. Also like I was just telling my friends this morning I I normally listen to like you know I like bands and I like heavy music and I like weird you know I like all the stuff that's happening in Copenhagen right now. What's happening in Copenhagen? Oh there's such a great music scene in Copenhagen. It's what? Yes. I'll send you a playlist. Oh my god. I love it. It's as it all it's like heavy heavy Copenhagen. Oh it's it's not heavy. It's a vibe. It's a vibe. And I've always liked music from that from like Scandinavian artists you know. But also I just like was listening to I put on this Olivia Dean song called "Man I Need" and I was like, oh, I know it because I've seen the clips all over the internet and I started singing along to it and I started crying to it and I think it's because it's so, it feels joyful and it feels very feminine. It's not, my mouth doesn't make those shapes very often and my body like really responded to it. So, I just, yeah, there's so many different types of music happening right now that I'm so inspired by. That's awesome. Yeah, it's fun. And what are you listening to, watching, reading, what do you do to laugh? What do you do when you want to get up, you know, get on the elevator and get up out of the, like, what makes you laugh? Wayne's world. It's my favorite movie of all time, I watched. I've talked about how much, how great Wayne's can we please talk about it? I mean, Dana Corby was instrumental for me when I was, he was in, you know, like you always kind of fall in love with the SNL cast that you saw when you were like 1314 and he, him and Jan Hooks, like that cast and apartment. And Mike Myers was an improviser who came out of the theater that I studied at. So Mike was a kind of an example of, like, one of us can make it. Wow. He kind of came up through that system, that Chicago system and got in his nail. So those two were, and, but what do you like about Wayne's world? Well, it is a Wayne's world. Make you laugh. Well, so my parents were really young and I, I think that's why I got to grow up on stuff like that from the early, early 90s or the late 80s. And I thought that's how we would dress when we became adults. I was like, this is how adults dress. We wear fishnets under denim ripped up shorts. We wear flannels over Arizona shirts and I literally dress like that. I mean, I just, I, that movie has, it's like the Godfather to me. Like, I quote that movie all the time. What's your, what are your favorite scenes in Wayne's world? Oh, this is good. Well, it's probably the dream we've ever seen. It's probably when they first see Cassandra and that gorgeous woman played by Tia Carrera. Tia Carrera, Mike Queen. Incredible. Oh. And Chris Trigger's Rob Lowe is in Wayne's world, Rolo, as we like to call him. You know, I did not like Rob Lowe until much later in his career. Because he was bad in Wayne's world. Like, he was the villain in Wayne's world. Yes. I believe Parks and Rec was my, was the redemption tour. Okay. So we'll finish with Doug's two questions because they were great questions of the race. Oh, okay. Yeah. So Doug had two questions for you. And, and by the way, make sure you check out Wayne's world. If you haven't seen Wayne's world, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have to bleep curse words? No. You don't? We don't have to bleep on this. Oh, my God. By the power. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. Freedom. Freedom. Okay. He had two great questions. One was, you know how Batman has a symbol in the sky that calls Batman. Yeah. What would Haley Williams symbol be? And it can be anything. Yes. Do you know in Wayne's world, when they're driving in the Gremlin, and it's the middle of Bohemian rap city when the guitar started, like kind of breaks down. And the camera pans up and there's like a car on top of us, pole, I think it's a car. It's like a sign for something and it, it would be like that, but it would just be the Gremlin. And it would have a glow behind it, yeah, you would see it in the sky and be like, gotta go. Gotta go. It's time. You know what I mean? Yeah. Gotta get in there. Gotta get in that world. It would be like that. And very faintly from a distance, Bohemian rap city might even be playing. What's your favorite part of Bohemian rap city? That's my favorite part. Of course. And then the next question which is wild is, what is the last song that you want to hear before you die? Okay. Oh no. I know and you're, and do you feel like you would know it? Stayin' alive. That was always my funeral song, but I suppose it would be kind of cool to go out to it as well. And you know when I add an extra layer to it, that is supposedly the beat that you're supposed to do CPR to. Stop. Stayin' alive. That's when we learn CPR. It was like, ha, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive, and then breathe into their mouth. Whoa. So that might be what you want to hear, Doug. You got your answer. Well, I hope this isn't too embarrassing, but we're going to do a cool down with our straws. Oh, yeah. With our straws? Yeah. Here's your straw. Damn. Doug has really taught you. He gave us a cool down, and now I only want to do it with straws. Okay. Can you talk us through it? Yeah. We do a few different versions, and it honestly has been a moment since I've done it, which is hence why I was saying I need to start doing it at night. But I think the whole idea is, normally you're going from here building up, kind of up your range. Now we're going to shut it down. Okay. Okay. So let's start, like, not too high, but just. That's a little too low. Harry Williams, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. That was lovely. That felt really good. And I love you, and I love your voice, and I love spending time with you. I love you so much. I love you so much. I don't know what a funny thing is. It just happened there. I'm going to really unpack on my way home. And I'll send you a playlist. Yes, please. Because we need to know what's going on in Copenhagen. You're right. Because I'm embarrassed about how little I know what's going on over there. We need to get over there. And don't think that for the rest of the week, I'm not going to die now on the fact that Harry Williams told me there's a lot of music going on in Copenhagen. I'm going to say it at least 10 times. Tell everyone. Tell everyone you know. I'm going to speak about me at the gas station. It's hot. Everyone. The block is hot in Copenhagen. You got to tell them, "I'm going to drop that, like, it's nothing." Like, I'm just going to say it so casually, "I'm going to make eye contact." Hands in your pocket. It's a cigarette. It appears. Okay, friends of life. Yeah. Okay, bye. Bye, guys. We're going to say here, but you're going to go. Thank you so much for coming, Hailey. You are, well, you're in my new best friend. Whether you know it or not, and we'll be friends forever. It was so fun to see you. And I just want to say, Hailey talked about a lot of amazing musicians and people that she loves to work with. But for this polar plunge, I'm just reminding everybody about two things. The great Kathleen Hannah, who, you know, started Bikini Kill and Latigra, and is an incredible activist and musician and instrumental for so many women's careers, such an inspiration. I know for me and many other people. And the Linda Lindas, a band that Kathleen has supported as well as Hailey forever. They are just this really super fun, great musicians, great vibe. I got the chance to work with them in a movie I directed called Moxie, where they were playing at the dance. And they're just, they're just so fun. So check out music from the Linda Lindas and always bow down to the great Kathleen Hannah. And thank you, Hailey Williams always for all that you do. Can't wait to see what's next. Okay, thanks. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weissberman, and me Amy Poler. This show is produced by The Ringer and PaperKite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spalane, Kaya McMullen, and Alayah Zanearest. For PaperKite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weissberman. Original music by Amy Miles.