Have You Tried The ‘No-Buy Challenge?’

A dark night, a quiet house, but inside danger was lurking. Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply not available in all areas. Support for KQED podcast comes from Save the Bay, protecting and restoring San Francisco Bay for 65 years. The corporate volunteer opportunities available along the shoreline to help drive positive change. More at savesfbay.org. Oh, not really. Xfinity. Imagine that. From KQED in San Francisco, this is Forum, I'm Nina Kim. More people are joining the No Buy Challenge, says the Associated Press, pledging to not buy anything for a month or even a year. CNN reports online searches for Under Consumption Core, or using just a small rotation of items for years, grew by more than 4,000% in the last year. Are you also feeling a need to rein in your consumption habits? Either out of financial necessity, or a sense they've gotten a little out of control. Maybe the health of the planet is on your mind. This hour, we get tips on how to start your own No Buy Challenge, or spend more mindfully. Join us. Welcome to Forum, I'm Nina Kim. Have you done the No Buy Challenge, meaning you've pledged to purchase only essential items for a set period, maybe even up to a year? More people seem to be embracing the idea in 2024, either out of economic necessity, or a need to curb impulse spending. Or both. This hour, we look at why shopping less has become more than a social media trend, and here what effect it's at on people who've done it. We'll also get advice on how to better manage your consumption habits. Joining me are Adriana Morga, financial wellness reporter for the Associated Press. Hi, Adriana. Hello, Nina. Happy to be here. Yeah, glad to have you on. Alicia Berman is also with us, creative director and content creator on TikTok and Instagram, who has done the No Buy Challenge, Alicia Glad to have you too. Happy to be here. Hi, everyone. So, Adriana, let me start with you. The No Buy Challenge has been around for a while, it sounds like. When did it emerge? And when did you start noticing a new wave of interest in it, I guess? Yeah, I think it was one of those things that, like you said, it has been around for a while, but I mean, I used to talk. I would consumer to talk, and I think that there's, you know, one year there, I mean, it might be because I'm a personal finance reporter, and I like that, but you know, my algorithm was showing me a lot of people that were trying on the No Buy Year challenge. So I was like, okay, like you first see one person, then you see others, and obviously I saw Alicia there and others, and I was like, okay, this is something that I think is worth, you know, writing about and kind of looking deeper into that. And so, yeah, that was like the first time that I saw it, and I started my reporting. Yeah, it sounds like it's been blowing up on Reddit, TikTok, other social media, social media platforms, and that I think you're reporting also said maybe around 2016, 2017. The idea is that you stop buying things that you don't really need for a set period of time, right, with a No Buy Challenge. Yeah, and what I think is like really sort of cool, and also unique about this challenge is that the rules are self-imposed, and I think that that is something that I was like, okay, like when I first came across this challenge, I was like, oh, maybe it's something that, you know, it's very strict and I feel like that can be sometimes tough when people are managing their money and budgeting, like the strictness symptoms can be tricky if it doesn't work for your life, but the fact that this challenge, the rules, like you can make them, like I interviewed people that were doing just specific things, like, oh, like I'm not going to buy anything, a target, or like at stores, like I'm not going to go through shopping because I'm getting a lot of stuff, but I am still spending on going to restaurants, so I think that, like, that sort of flexibility on it, I think is really key on this specific challenge. And what have people told you, Adria, about why they were doing it? Yeah, I think that there's different reasons why, which I also, again, think that is sort of like a very cool thing about this challenge is that when a person told me that they needed to pay debt, another person told me they were saving others are doing it for sustainability, I think that we know that Gen C is very interested in being more sustainable and being more conscious about their, like, the ways that they produce. So other people are not only doing it for financial reasons, but also because of, you know, sustainability. And others, you know, are doing it to budget, they are noticing that there's some things that like they are spending too much on, and they want to sort of control so that way they can, you know, be there maybe this for loans, or if they have credit card debt, or so yeah, it's a little bit of a range of reasons. So Alicia, what did it for you? Was there a moment when you realized you needed to do something about your consumption habits? Absolutely. I was noticing that my consumption was running me, I was not in control of it. And then also, my motivation was largely financial, I reached a point last year where I was kind of like, I need to get my stuff together, or I'm going to end up in deep water financially. So through doing my NOBA year, I've actually been able to save a considerable amount of money, gain a lot of insight into what my financial spending habits looked like before versus now, and also I paid off about 50%, 60% of all the debt that I had, which was considerable. So, it's been great. Congratulations. Well, what other effects did it have on you that you didn't expect? I think I just feel more in control these days. I think, you know, for me, I had a good pulse of spending habit, like shopping addiction if you want to call it that, and really taking a step back, looking at my spending and shopping holistically, I felt like money was always just leaving my account. It constantly felt like I had like a leak on my finances. And now I just feel much more conscious and in control. Well, let me invite listeners to join the conversation with their questions about doing a NOBA challenge, or if you've attempted one or another way to really rein in your spending habits or your consumption habits, we'd love to know what that is and how it went. Have you struggled with over buying or what ways do you keep your consumption habits in check so that you don't get to that point? Maybe yours or a family members. You can tell us at 866-733-6786, you can email forum at kqd.org. You can find us on xfacebook, Instagram at kqd forum or join our discord community. So, Alicia, you decided to do this for a whole year. Was it supposed to say a month or three months, like some people do, why that long? So, I've been accustomed to doing NOBAI July where you just take a month, every July and you don't shop. I've done that for years, but really, like I mentioned before, my finances were kind of. I was familiar with the concept, but my finances were really kind of in a situation where I had no other option. And so I said, let's just do it for a whole year. I'm a pretty extreme person and I like to commit to the bit, as they say, so I really wanted to challenge myself to see how long I could go. And to be honest, I've broken three times, because the goal is progress, not perfection, so breaking it even a little bit is still better than what I was doing last year or the year prior. So you also announced it on TikTok, was that like a way to hold you accountable or to put pressure on you? I don't know about pressure, but it absolutely helped me accountable. I think also, so announcing the NOBAI on TikTok was definitely to keep me accountable. It ups the ante, so to speak, because there's now, I think it's up to like almost 130,000 people kind of see me as inspiration for their own financial finance journeys. So I do have a lot of people sort of counting on me, and I guess as much as one can count on someone on social media, but I have a lot of, so I don't want to disappoint my audience, I also don't want to disappoint myself. But then also, every time that I break my NOBAI, the few times that I've done it, I make a video about it because I really want people to understand that the goal of this is, like I said, progress, not perfection, and that you really have to give yourself grace because you're dealing with something that's not easy to overcome. Yeah, what were some of the hardest moments? Like you said, you broke your streak a few times of doing NOBAI. What were some of those moments? like and how did you justify it? Um, well, so most recently, um, I was going really, really strong. I was really, really solid and then unfortunately, you know, life got in the way, my dog passed away. And I was, it's, yeah, it's okay. But um, I was turning to old habits for a bit of retail therapy, but fortunately I was able to kind of catch myself before things really spun out of control. And I was able to use that as kind of like a marker for personal change. And I was, you know, very transparent about it on the internet and everyone else kind of said the same thing. I don't think people feel, I was really afraid that if I broke my no buy and told people about it, I would be kind of drawn and quartered all over the internet, but actually people have been really accepting and understanding, um, and grateful for my honesty and, um, candor. So what did you put on your essential or non essential list? Oh, let me pull it up. If I have it on my phone, um, it's kind of my Bible, if you will, um, we find it. There we go. Okay. So on the no column, I have any kind of, for the first half of the year, I really forwent any kind of, you know, beauty appointments. I really didn't get my hair done. I had like six inch roots. It was a whole mess. But for me, my, um, spending mainly focused on clothing, I work in the beauty and fashion industry and it's a very tempting, um, so I'm not allowed to buy any clothes, any beauty products, no perfume, no jewelry, no, um, a big thing for me was also take out. That one has been a bit harder because, you know, life gets in the way. So sometimes just ordering food is convenient, um, but no home decor and then no like bathing suits, beach stuff, anything like that. It was, it's mainly focused on, uh, fashion and beauty. And then in the yes column, I am allowed to get dinners. Um, I allow myself to get like fresh cut flowers every once in a while. Um, one thing I really like is a nice candle. So I always like every three months, I allow myself to get a nice luxury candle. Um, budget travel is, it is allowed, um, you know, and going to the movies, anything that's entertainment, um, focused is also in the yes column because I think that the goal is to not deprive yourself. Yeah. And to realize how much you can fulfill yourself with just these core things, as opposed to maybe some of the other things that were on your non-essential list that you got. Actually, you get dopamine from healthy, positive things instead of things that drain your bank account. Yeah. Adriana, what did some of you will tell you they needed to put on their non-essential list? Yeah, um, like I mentioned before, one of them, uh, she was, uh, she's saving to, uh, move out of home. She was a recent graduate and she was saving. So she was, you know, like she noticed that one of her sort of Achilles heels when he came to spending with, you know, going, like doing a target run and getting some, like, little trinkets or, uh, getting a lot of, you know, like plates and stuff like that. So that was in her, like, I cannot do that in even when she would go through shopping, which is obviously like more, um, not, you know, you don't spend as much money, but you still get a lot of things. So those were some of the things that she was like, I do not want to do. But what the things that was, they were on her yes list was, you know, going to restaurants, going to the movies with her mom or spending times with, with family. I think that she was very focused on, you know, quality time with your loved ones. And also spending on activities rather than things. Um, another person that I interviewed, she's, uh, in the UK, um, she's a piece of these students and she noticed how, you know, she would, like, go out and spend a lot of, you know, getting food, getting, like, nice sodas or getting, uh, bucks. So one thing that she did, which I thought that was quite cool was the fact, was the fact that, um, her, she would bring a bag when she would go out and, like, bring a book and bring, like, all the things that she would maybe spend on when she was outside. So that way she wouldn't, you know, so it would remind her that she already had it in her bag. That's cool. We'll have more on the know by challenge after the break. Support for Forum comes from San Francisco Opera. Manon is young, beautiful and is a taste for the finer things. Which is why her family is sending her to a convent. On her way to her new life, she falls for the handsome Chevalier de Grille and they run away to Paris, the city of love. But when their youthful art is threatened by fatherly disapproval, Manon must decide between what matters most, true love or a life of luxury. This fall, travel to Paris and fall in love with Messinés Manon, October 15th, through November 1st, sf opera dot com. Welcome back to Forum, my Mina Kim. We're talking about the "no by challenge" and other efforts people are making to get a handle on their consumption habits, maybe out of financial necessity or a sense that buying habits have gotten a little out of control. Or a desire to consume more mindfully. This listener writes on Discord, "There was buy nothing day for the day after Thanksgiving, a campaign from ad busters that started in the 90s. Why are we tempted to overspend? Our lives are empty and meaningless under capitalism. And so the answer to the emptiness is to fill it with buying stuff. We're talking about how to get a handle on buying stuff with Adrienne Amorga, financial wellness reporter for the Associated Press, and Alicia Berman, creative director and content creator on TikTok and Instagram and you are listeners are joining at 866-733-6786. So the email address forum at kqud.org on our social channels at kqud forum or on Discord. And you're telling us if you have attempted a "no by challenge" or other ways to really rein in your consumption habits, what questions do you have if you want to start one or what stories do you want to share about struggling with over-consuming? I want to bring into the conversation now, Apparna LeBrew, professor of marketing and consumer and a consumer psychologist at Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University, also co-editor of the Journal of Consumer Psychology. Apparna, I'm really glad to have you on. Thank you so much Mina for including me. It's been really wonderful listening to Elissa and Adrienne sharing such insightful comments about how to get a better hold on their financial decisions. Yeah, and we got sort of a theory from one of our listeners about why we overspend. But I do want to talk to you about that. Like why it's so hard not to spend, because reigning in spending and budgeting, none of those things are new, but what makes it particularly hard in this day and age, Apparna? There are many things, you know. One of the reasons that we overspend is because we really aren't often tracking our spending very intentionally. And so it accumulates over time and we end up spending on little things and then suddenly we realize how much we've actually spent. And of course, because marketers want to make it easier for consumers to buy what consumers actually want to buy, they have put in place a lot of things that actually facilitate the choice and decision making process for consumers and help them buy things. So you might find that it's become easier to use mobile pay or to go ahead and put things on a subscription and we don't often track what we're doing. Another reason why we buy is out of trying to regulate our emotions and these emotions could be anger, boredom, sadness. These are some kind of triggers that can push consumers to go ahead and make decisions that they later go ahead and regret. So I understand, Apparna, that retail therapy is a real thing in the sense that it does provide you with a moment of feeling better, maybe a short-term moment of feeling better even if it's not something you should turn to a lot. It actually does have a benefit, right? Of course, but every choice we make entails a trade-off. It entails a trade-off between trying to feel good in the moment and then trying to go ahead and achieve our goals for the long term. And because things in the long term are more abstract, they're more difficult to attain. They often don't have the same immediate hit of dopamine. It becomes harder to attain them. And so when we start thinking about managing our finances better, that is really cumbersome to think about, trying to save feels unpleasant, going ahead and giving in in the moment feels really good. It's only later that we feel guilt and unhappiness and embarrassment and wish we hadn't done that. This is a real choice dilemma that we often face. And it's every consumer faces this because these choices are, and these trade-offs are inherent in every decision they make. When you were talking about stress and so on, I was wondering about the role the pandemic has played in accelerating our shopping habits, particularly our online shopping habits that people do tend to cope with anxiety and stress by seeking out those dopamine hits with online shopping, do you think the pandemic played a big role up, Arna? Certainly, I think there was a lot of regret after the pandemic that people faced and experienced because during the pandemic, they had lost their social connections, they were bored, they were upset, they were fearful, they ended up buying a lot of things and engaging in retail therapy that later, they regretted once they had their social interaction come back and once they had more meaningful things in their lives. So one of the other things that has been talked about a lot is the role that social media plays and I know that you used it to keep yourself accountable, but was it also a really big source of temptation? Oh, yes, absolutely, I think that originally for me, you know, your 4u pages catered towards your interest and I'm someone who's deeply interested in fashion, I always have been. So all of the content that I was seeing was promoting fashion, promoting sales, promoting things to buy and there's definitely, there's kind of a, it's like this feeling of mimetic desire, it's a philosophical concept, but anyway, you know, we see these things in our social media feeds and we want to imitate that, we want to kind of recreate that within our own lives and there was definitely a lot of pressure to, you know, to buy. And ever since I stopped shopping, I'm now conscious of how I promote my self on social media because I don't want to then, you know, put those same pressures onto other people. Yeah. And in terms of shopping, would you do a lot of it online or was it in person a lot? And if you did do it online, yeah, oh, sorry, it was almost entirely online. Oh, wow, yeah. And so how frequently would you say you were doing it? Because it is amazing how quickly you can purchase things. Yeah. And it shows up in your doorstep in two days. And also like now check out and payment is getting easier and easier. You can like pay with a click of a button. You don't even have to like enter your card info, which I think is a big card, entering your card info was traditionally a big deterrent for me with online shopping. And now it's like express checkout. It's just getting easier and easier to buy. And then it shows up next day. But yeah, I definitely think online shopping was for me at the height of my shopping addiction and my compulsive spending habits being at their worst. I would probably get a package a day. It was obscene. I felt judged too by like my door man and my husband. I was hiding packages from him. Like it was very shameful. And it was really hard. Well, Kim writes in 2019, I retired to find my garage filled with stuff. So much that we could not park our cars inside. It took me two months to donate, sell or dispose of the items. Since then we have chosen to only replace broken items, clothing, food or hygiene items. The house is way less cluttered. And we can park our cars in the garage. I think in the end all our positions are just junk for someone else to clean up. Let me go to call her Sam and San Rafael. Hey Sam. You're on. Hey. I wanted to call in and bring up the topic of like online communities where people trade items or giveaway items for free for about six years. And in many different locations I've lived in, I've been a part of by nothing on Facebook. And it's a community based just in your very local neighborhood where people offer up everything from furniture to plants and kids items. And it's been a great way to spend less on things and get great things that someone doesn't need anymore without having to buy something new. And also a wonderful way to meet neighbors and build community and I'm not part of a by nothing challenge or anything like that. But there have been times in my life when I really didn't buy very much new stuff, especially having like two little kids you buy a lot of stuff. And it's just so great to have like a neighborhood exchange and it's been great. Oh well thanks so much for sharing that Sam and actually we have another listener Andy who writes I can't say enough about the by nothing groups on Facebook. It is amazing the things that people give away, furniture, appliances. If you need something but it's not urgent to buy that day, get on some of these groups and browse. And you'll almost certainly find what you are looking for. So the social media has a way to curb the temptations that are also that also abound on social media. Adriana, there was a piece in CNN that also highlighted something called under consumption core which is a little different than no buy, can you tell us about that? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's under consumption core, I mean it sounds very, like it's kind of straightforward. There's a lot of this you know interest in like sort of leaving a more like minimalist style where you are just buying what you need and not kind of participating in a lot of the micro trends and fashion micro trends. So that's what it kind of you know focuses on and I think that more and more we see it on social media specifically you know TikTok and Instagram because we're getting pushed so much product by almost every piece of content that we consume like that we are seeing and consume as you know social media users. So people are very much rejecting that idea and just being like no, I just want to buy what I need and I don't want to go beyond that. I do want to mention about the buy nothing groups. I will say another piece of that as well is when I was doing my reporting I found several Facebook groups and some of them like really big that were like no buy or low spend like Facebook groups. So I think that those ones are also kind of very helpful for people that want to participate in budgeting challenges like this ones that want to kind of have a community with other people trying these things or even like a accountability or talking about their sort of how they're maybe their struggles. So yeah I wanted to also add that as well. Yeah no good point. You know apparna with this under consumption core trend where people are trying to rotate a smaller number of items and keep those items for a really long time. Besides some of the reasons that Adriana gave that people do it. There was also the point that the piece made about people wanting to push back against the pressure of emulating an unattainable lifestyle and I was curious what cultural messages that you see that marketing exploits or creates I guess that that dry consumption, the kind of cultural models that we have that pushes to spend. I wouldn't say marketing necessarily creates it. We certainly the reason people buy products is because they reflect their identity and because they serve important needs. But what happens is when because products help us verify who we are as individuals when we feel insecure we can start you know engaging in social comparison looking at others when we are upset we can start engaging in retail therapy and all of this can lead to over consumption. But the real reason that people want to consume products is because they want to discover their authentic self and feel good about themselves. And so when this realization comes I think people sometimes push back against all the products that they don't need and they start seeking the kind of products that truly provide them meaning in their life and not only products it's experiences that often really giving up give us enduring happiness in our life you know sitting with friends or going out and having a nice meal with someone you've known for a long time. I wouldn't characterize that necessarily as an indulgence or an essential expenditure because you've created a memory for a lifetime. On the other hand if you're getting tick out every night that probably is essential. Still you know getting tick out every night it might not be entirely essential if you're spending a really hard day working out there and you're really tired. But that doesn't mean that every day you should go ahead and get tick out. You could do small changes that could actually help you save your money and feel better about yourself as well. You could get a one tick out dish and go ahead and supplement it with vegetables you have at home. You could go ahead and mix and match certain dishes over days. You could try and prepare food so there's small things if you set your goal that I want to go ahead and buy things that make me happy rather than go ahead and just buy things mindlessly. You will end up making better purchases and feeling better about yourself and being able to connect with people in a truly meaningful way as opposed to engaging in social comparison and feeling bad about yourself. We're talking with a partner, Labrou, co-editor of the Journal of Consumer Psychology, a professor of marketing at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, also Adriana Marga, financial one as reporter for the Associated Press, and Alicia Berman, creative director and content creator on Tiktok, who has tried the No Buy Challenge. We're talking with you, our listeners, who are sharing your questions about attempting a No Buy Challenge or your experiences of having done something to rain in your consumption habits if you struggled with that or ways that you keep your consumption habits or family members in check. The number is 866-733-6786, the email address forum at kqed.org, our social channels are at KQED Forum where you can join our discord community. Listener writes, I grew up in a generation in economy where our parents said no to many of the things we wanted, along with not spending on unnecessary items. I taught us to save our money as we gained agency with adulthood, the lesson stuck. We don't need everything we see. Today we are bombarded by the ever-present social channels, which pressure people to feel they need to keep up with their peers. How many sweaters, dinner plates, shoes, earrings, candles, and other stuff? Do you really need another listener writes, you don't get rich by living rich or by spending like rich people do? I can just ask you one really quick question that I've been thinking about as I've been hearing Adriana talk about one of the people she interviewed wanting to stay away from target. And one of the places that I know for me and my kids is the dollar aisle at target is really tempting. But anything that is a bargain, can you just talk a little bit about the psychology of a bargain and why that drives so much shopping for us? We had triggered to go ahead, any scarcity queue makes us want to go ahead and get that last bit of offer. We feel that we might be denied and then we'll have the fear of missing out later. It's also that the kind of things that are often put in that bargain aisle are small expenditures. You know, maybe a dollar, two dollars, five dollars. We don't realize that those pennies add up over time and become a huge problem. And then they're really enjoyable things that can be very enjoyable in the moment. You know, candy, chips, things that are, you know, eminently snackable. So we end up reaching out and buying those. There's something in psychology called the opportunity cost neglect that some of my colleagues at Yale actually looked at. And they said that one of the main reasons we end up making these decisions is because we don't think in that moment about what else we could have done with that money. What other products we could have bought with our money at that point. So when that happens, if you don't want to give in to a temptation, whether it is online or whether it's in the store, just think of what else you could have done with that product. Rather than saying why you should deny yourself that product, think about instead the positive, what else you could do with that that would be even more meaningful. And that might help you resist that temptation. Well, Lin writes, I wonder if this is more common for younger generations. I've had to budget since before our first was born. I've allowed myself one meal out a week nearly always fast food. I never had much free time and would only go shopping when there was something the family needed. Is retail therapy something for people with no kids or for the wealthy? I'm not sure if it's so much retail therapy, but also just this concern about overspending. Because I've seen stories that are covering studies that Gen Z and Millennials feel like they have a shopping addiction. I think I saw one study that said a third of Gen Z or Millennials would categorize themselves in the under the category of having one. Do you think it is something that's harder on younger generations, Apparna? You are absolutely right. As I mentioned just a few minutes ago, that one of the reasons we buy products is because they help us discover who we are and feel authentic sales. And as you're a younger person, you really not had a lot of financial decision-making responsibility until now you've now developed certain amount of responsibility and you're trying to develop these skills along with really going ahead and really trying to see who you are and what you enjoy and gathering experiences in your life, you can end up spending a little more than you wish to do so. So yes, and this changes over time. You start developing responsibilities. You might have a family. You might also get better at managing your money and thinking about budgeting. You might become concerned about investing for your retirement. So I think yes, the amount you spend and what you spend on and what you define as an essential product was expense versus not changes over one's lifetime. We are talking about pledges to try to purchase only essential items often known as the No Buy Challenge efforts to rein in how much you have or consume things like under consumption core. And lots of other ways people are feeling a need to really rein in their consumption. We're talking about it with a Parna La Brue of the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern with Alicia Berman and with Adriana Morga of the Associated Press and we'll have more after the break. I'm Nina Kim. Oh, not really. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama free? Xfinity. Imagine that. You're listening to Forum. I'm Nina Kim. People are pulling back on their spending habits, trying to curb over consumption, sometimes out of financial necessity, consumers have been grappling with high interest rates, inflation, or they're seeing their savings dwindle. Other people are sharing environmental concerns like listener Paul who writes, "For me, buying less is about our planet. Everything we buy comes out of the ground." This endless chase for higher GDP, which all politicians strive for to help them get elected, is killing the planet. Simply said, buying less is a great way to help lower carbon emissions. If you're trying to rein in your consumption habits, what is driving you? You can tell us at 866-733-6786 on Discord at our social channels at KQED Forum, at our email address, [email protected], and let me go to call our Gregory in Oakland. Hi, Gregory, you're on. Hi. First of all, I appreciate you all lifting up the complexity of this issue, and one of the things that I've learned in my own process or my own growth in this area has been the relationship, how purging, for me, the active purging has motivated me to purchase or to consume less. I, like the guest talks about, I've consumed a lot, I've collected a lot, I've hoarded a lot, all related to my own history, and the idea of getting rid of it, I didn't want to add to those big piles of garbage on the earth, and so I wanted to donate or sell et cetera, but none of that was really motivating me enough until I started to realize, I found like there's a great place in San Francisco called the Community Thrift, and this is a place where you can donate stuff so other people can reuse it, but then the benefit of it, you get to actually name a nonprofit that you want those benefits to go to. And that's been incredible at motivating me to almost on a monthly basis, look for what I can purge. And that active purging has actually been cathartic in that catharsis of like having that space, of not having 17 things that I don't need, has actually made it much, much more in the front of my mind, not to actually purchase more and to fill that space. In fact, we have a rule that if I'm going to purchase an article of clothing, I have to find two or three that I will donate that it will replace. So it's just been cathartic to go through that purging. Well, that is great to know that that was something that really helped you as the active purging in terms of inspiring, reducing your consumption. Gregory, thanks so much for that call. Let me go to Amina and El Serito. Hi, Amina, you're on. Yes, that's a kind of a long line. I mean, I've always been a environmental and I consider myself a minimalist, but it was actually when my mother died and having to go through her stuff and realizing that so little is donateable or recyclable and just ends up in landfill. And so now when I buy anything, I kind of think of, you know, where is this going to end up? And that really keeps me from spending. We do have a place in El Serito at the recycling center where you can bring in not everything, but a lot of items like children's toys and it's an exchange zone. So I think that's something every city should have. Yeah. Well Amina, thanks so much for sharing that and let me go next to Neil and Mill Valley. Hi, Neil. You're on. Hi, Amina. This is Neil Gottliebos. I was a guest of yours back then. Oh! Three twins. Hey, Neil. Hi. Thanks for calling. And my wife said, yeah, thank you. My wife and I are expecting a baby next month and we literally pay for nothing other than one pack of newborn babies because where we live in Mill Valley is it's just an unbelievable amount of free stuff and it's just, on the comment on just the shame of the inequality of those that can afford these things, get them for free, but those who could really benefit. So we're making effort with a lot of what we receive passing on to non-profit organizations that help new families make it more affordable. Yeah. Well, Neil, thanks for sharing that insight. And again, congratulations. That's so great. Yeah. Thank you. Alicia, that is also something that you have said in terms of a tactic to try instead of when you want to buy is instead of buying new, try to buy used or try to find what's out there. Yes, especially with fashion and clothing, there is such a surplus of wonderful, beautiful, pre-loved clothing out there. And you know, but the thing is, you still have to be mindful of your consumption at the end of the day just because something secondhand doesn't mean you can't over consume it. I think that there are plenty of people who have over consumed thrifting and things like that, but I absolutely would encourage everyone who wants to buy fashion or buy clothing to buy it secondhand. hand. Yeah. Yeah. Clothing. Wow. That is such a big one. Katrina in San Jose. You're on. Hi, Katrina. Hi. I was noticing that on my social media feeds because I am married and a parent I was getting a lot of a lot of content that was based on spouses and marriage and having kids and a lot of things I started to see were like lighthearted jokes about usually wives hiding purchases from husbands and sometimes like hiding packages or even using their kids like teaching the kids how to lie about the total amount that they spent at Target and I feel like for a while it really normalized for me kind of that lifestyle in my own relationship and I and through a lot of different things realizing that like these things that might seem like hearted and they might be little purchases here and there it really can snowball into something very dangerous for relationships if you're not being honest about your spending habits with each other. Oh wow Katrina thanks for sharing that. You know upon it is making me think about what are some things or some signs that maybe you might need more support or help around spending or that they're you're spending habits might be destructive by the true relationship or to something else. If you were finding yourself in financial trouble if you're finding that you are constantly violating your budget and over spending if you're finding that things are piling up in your house if you are feeling that you are not really being very intentional about your purchase decisions if you're feeling that you're feeling ashamed and there's no reason to feel all these things ashamed about your behavior or your feelings affecting your relationships or your mental health then I think actually I will say I appreciate you for your courage in taking the first step and recognizing that you may have somewhat of a problem here in spending and you could certainly go ahead talk to someone close to you reach out to people who might be there to help you and also think about at some point what your goals are and why you want to achieve them and whether it is to you know be more sustainable as a human or to make more sustainable decisions whether it is to improve your financial situation whether it is to build your relationships to think more about the higher order goal and think about all the different comprehensive ways you can go ahead and achieve that goal sometimes you know we feel that we're spending but that's not the only way to manage your financial decisions there's a second aspect to it as well which is of earning now of course I think people are maxed out in terms of how much they're working but you know maybe automating what you save when you get your salary just sweeping it aside and putting something extra into your savings that could go ahead and massage your guilt a little bit but yes if you realize that you have a problem you've already done the first most important thing which is having the courage to recognize that and now go ahead and find your support system find the right professional health find the right tactics and tools that help you reach the goals that you really have yeah well let's show for someone who wants to take on a know-by challenge what is your advice for them or what were some of the first and most helpful things you did I know we talked about how attempting online is like did you did you basically unsubscribe from advertising emails and texts and things or unsafe your credit card information absolutely I did all of the above and more I actually put a block on a couple of the websites that were really tempting me I think I need to put that block back on it because I went through a period of great emotional turmoil recently and I think that triggered kind of that urge to it's comforting to like look through those sites and buy stuff so I think that you know this is something that you have to monitor long-term and setting up a set established list of rules has really been helpful for me because I think what you're doing with that is you're moving forward with an intentionality about your spending so every purchase gets filtered through that lens and it immediately becomes an intentional purchase versus an emotional one one of the pieces of advice Adriana that your piece had was to take a pause what do you mean by taking a pause yeah I think Alicia mentioned earlier that one of the things that I think you know this conversation is also about how your emotions affect the way that you make financial decisions and sometimes with challenges like this or even budgeting in general you start with all of this you know excitement about like okay I'm gonna get it together I'm gonna get my finances together I'm going to do it perfectly I'm not gonna make an error but sometimes you know there's there's situations in your life or there's things that happen or you know something you just have a bad day at work and you're like you know what I just cannot like I know that if I buy this I'm gonna feel good and I need this for my mental health so sometimes like taking a pause and just being like okay this is okay I'm allowing myself to like do this and I'm not gonna judge myself and continue because I think that if you judge yourself because you sort of made a mistake or like you know didn't you know you quote unquote broke your no buy then that judgment by like like like make you stay away from trying it again or coming back so I think that being very gentle with yourself is very key to trying out things like this yeah so taking a pause on being hard on yourself but also is there some value of bar none to just waiting before you make the purchase like sleeping on it oh absolutely there are just you know recognizing your triggers avoiding your triggers when you face your triggers having an implementation intention regarding how you're going to go ahead and react and what you're going to do and among those one could be just writing down on a piece of paper having a list where you just write down anything you want to buy because if you still are dreaming about it one month later and I can assure you most if you will probably not be dreaming about it one month later you'll realize it was really not important but that will give you that little bit of feeling that okay I won't miss out on this if I write so having that in place and then thinking about other ways in which you know suppose even if you have your implementation intention how to avoid overspending you could think about you know what if I feel it's not such a big deal if you fail on one occasion or two occasions don't end up doing the what the hell effect which means that just go ahead and completely give up it's only a small deviation and also when you succeed sometimes you can feel licensed it's the opposite you can feel wow I've done such a good job let me just go ahead and keep keep now let me just reward myself with all kinds of things in this moment little rewards are great in fact planning for little rewards is great as well and so you know you could say six days of the week I'm going to do this but on the seventh day I'm going to go ahead and have this minor indulgence which will really make me look forward to actually saving so you can do that and that actually conditions your mind rather than thinking oh my gosh I'm denying myself you start feeling I'm working toward a good end which I'm really looking forward to so thinking about that you know these kind of psychological tricks they can help you avoid temptations in the moment and really move toward doing things that you want to accomplish for whatever reason you want to accomplish them we're talking about spending mindfully and let me remind listeners you are listening to forum I mean it Kim let me go next to Collar Bob in Santa Rosa high Bob you're on hi thanks I was wanting to talk about an aspect of this that affected me which is if you're into sports or something creative like music you tend to acquire things simply because you think it'll make you better at what you're doing like if I get this tennis racket that Serena Williams uses I'll be I'll be a better player or if I just get this other guitar I'll play better whereas really what I found is that I needed to do my personal best and when I realized that I was able to stop acquiring more and more gear and spending money and really is um you know it's working from within yourself rather than buying things just to quote make yourself better I'm so glad to hear that Bob happened for you thanks for thanks for your show yeah yeah thanks for the show thank you Vivian on discord writes I'm curious about what people do when they're intended no by period has ended does it change they have it's permanently budgeting aggressively for long enough can make you apprehensive of buying things even once you can afford them but I wonder if the very intentional yes no list helps people find a more healthy middle road even afterward Alicia I think you are in are you in your ninth month of this or just did have your about eight months in nine nine nine so you're not done yet but I imagine you have some sense of how to answer Vivian's question about about what happens when it ends absolutely um I was going to do this for just a just a year I was going to do this for a year and I've actually decided to extend it to until my debt is entirely gone because it doesn't make sense to me personally to go back to shopping in any capacity until I'm entirely debt free um and then even once I am debt free and I am back off my no buy and able to resume regular spending habits again. I think I will do it through the lens of what I call a low buy where you're still approach you still have a list you still have rules and instead of saying I'm not allowed to buy any clothes you say okay well if I buy clothing you know I'm gonna enact a one-in-one out policy where I have to get rid of something in order to be able to buy something new and then that kind of puts your mind in the space of like well am I willing to part with anything in order to get this new item does this new item fit into my already overstuffed closet I but I think it just gives you that extra layer of intentionality and I think that you know I can't ever go back to shopping the way that I used to because the way that I used to was actually really self-destructive so you know my relationship with spending and shopping moving forward will look very different hmm well Chris writes as a human concerned with the human impact on the planet I can't help but think just about everything we buy ends up as a landfill after we use it up or get tired of it uh their listener writes I think you need to address people for whom stuff has been conflated with love if you don't address underlying psychology it's gonna be hard to solve the problem a partner is that something that you've seen that people can flake buying things with the love they they conflated definitely with all kinds of positive emotion because the immediate process of buying does give you this little dopamine kick it makes you feel good it's only later that you feel that this is wrong uh that that maybe you you would have been better off not doing that and yes I think some people might actually hold psychological theories that that you know if I buy if I keep giving to others you know people don't excessively sometimes spend only on themselves some people spend excessively on others almost as if one might want to seek approval so yes understanding that that things don't necessarily some things give a lot of happiness but not all things give a lot of happiness so being aware of that is important and when you take on such a process I think it's important to recognize that it's about replacement and habit change so going ahead and changing a habit that you're not happy with with something else that makes you happier it's not about denial it's not about going ahead and going on something like a crash diet so that the minute you stop you rebound in the opposite direction or that you go ahead and completely starve yourself of all kinds of products that actually give yourself happiness so it's about moderation and balance and developing the habits that help you define who you are as an individual and doing better on those we're talking with Apparna LaBrouh, professor of marketing and a consumer psychologist. Apparna is at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and co-editor of the Journal of Consumer Psychology. Alicia Berman is creative director and content creator on TikTok and Instagram and did the no buy challenge and is in it deep in it this year. Alicia thanks so much for being with us. And Adriana Morga, yeah thank you Adriana Morga. I finished a one-us-reporter for the Associated Press great to talk with you Adriana Morga. Thank you so much for having me and thank you. Thank you Apparna so much for being on as well and thank you listeners for sharing your stories your questions as well really appreciate it and Marc Nieto produced today's segment you've been listening to Forum. I'm Nina Kins. Funds for the production of KQED's Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, the Germanicose Foundation, and the Heising Simons Foundation. This fall you're cordially invited to the most chaotic wedding of the century. 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