Hasan Piker on his rise as a voice of the 'insurgent left' | NPR's Newsmakers

The way that I'm portrayed in the media is an America-hating, communist, Islamist fundamentalist, and then also at the same time very well-cogn gay. Of course, I say incendiary things, but it's not reflected on in the same way when someone who's white, Christian, born and raised in America is saying incendiary things. Your worldview has gotten you barred from travel, college campuses debate whether they should have you on their campuses. Is the price you pay for your ideas and your stances has it gotten too high? I think that there is no price too high to pay as long as I'm allowed to say the truth. Hi, it's Steve Innskipe with a special episode about first a conversation from NPR's newsmakers. In each episode a guest takes tough questions about their place at the center of events and how things look from the inside. Today, Leyla Faddle sits down with Hassan Piker. For more newsmakers, you can follow or subscribe to the show on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you watch or listen, and you can find us in the NPR app. Hassan Piker is one of the most important political forces among young people today. The 35-year-old commentator does daily live streams on Twitch. That's where he calls out the Democratic Party lambast conservatives, dissect the latest viral memes. His unfiltered and at times incendiary style has generated fans and fury. Piker has talked a lot recently about his political views, but we wanted to talk to him about the backlash against those views, as well as the midterms his audience reach and his role in the future of American politics. Hassan Piker, welcome to Newsmakers, and thanks for being here. This is a real honor. This is very exciting. I listen to NPR every morning. Oh, you do? Yeah. And all the time is a matter of fact. So are we on your stream? You're also on the stream all the time. You're probably on the stream right now. By the time this video comes out, I will definitely watch it on stream. So I want to get to who you are and why it feels like everyone is talking about you. But before I get there, I want to start with a really important Senate race in Michigan. You campaigned for Democrat, Uptil L. Sayed, and you're credited with really why he might have won his primary, but we've also seen him distancing himself from you lately because he's attacked for his association with you. Do you think that association could cost him the election? No. And I don't think the Republicans believe that any longer, either. The Republicans have no idea what to do with themselves. Trump is historically unpopular. The economy is in shambles. He ran on being the peace president. He lied about that very clearly. When gas prices are far too high, electricity, the energy prices have gone up as well because we're subsidizing data centers all around the country. People are overall very upset with how things have panned out, including Trump voters. So they can't really lean into Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a representative of chaos. And so they have to find a new target to attack. So I guess they wanted to position the Democrats as radical and communist, and I guess in some instances, Islam is fundamentalist. And they thought that identifying a random Twitch dreamer from California would be a really reliable way to do that and really successful way to do that. And they weren't shy about this either. There was plenty of reporting leading up to the unorthodox Republican midterm convention that took place, where this is what they openly said that this is what they would do. Well, you were mentioned at that convention, pretty prominently. The problem is most people don't know who I am, and even if they do know who I am, and even if they have a negative association with my worldview because they've seen these attack ads, or they've seen the media coverage, connecting me back to a campaign is very difficult. And that's precisely the reason why it's been a failure. And there's been polling on this. But what do you mean connecting me back to a campaign? Because you have campaigned for different candidates that you believe in. At the end of the day, I'm a Twitch dreamer. I hold no political office. I have no real political power. So getting people to be upset at a Twitch dreamer in their affiliation, if you want to call it a surrogate in the primary, is going to be very difficult, especially when there are real crises going on in the country. Do you think you give the Republicans ammunition to use, to use you as a cudgel for the Democratic Party? I think guilt by association politics is not as successful as people think they are. Republicans have had rabble browsers and firebrands that have played a formative role in galvanizing their base for the last couple of decades. That sometimes used to stress that association as a way to campaign. But I think even Democrats understood that it's largely ineffective and they've stopped doing it. A lot of people try to make this comparison between myself and Nick Fuentes, for example. I find that comparison to be disgusting. He's a known anti-Semitic neo-Nazi who was a participant of January 6 as well. And I think a closer comparison would probably be to someone like Charlie Kirk, who's also operated as a campaign surrogate at times or fundraised for candidates. I've never heard a Democrat even make that association a problem for any particular candidate, and not only that, but also, there certainly wouldn't be a lot of Republicans who would criticize other Republicans for affiliating with Charlie Kirk. Does Abdul say it's still, do you still talk to him? Do you still, are you still involved in any way in the campaign? I'm not involved in any way in the campaign. And I technically have never been involved in any way in the campaign. I did two campaign stops at two different universities early on with Abdul Al-Sahed. And it caused quite the controversy. But outside of that, my support for Abdul Al-Sahed is, my support is an American citizen. And a public figure who has a lot of fans, specifically under the age of 45, all around the country, but especially in Michigan as well. And that's always been the case. But there's been reporting that he actually has called you and said, don't talk about me on the stream. Is that true? No, he's not told me to stop talking about him on stream. If that were the case, I'd be doing a very bad job because I saw you were talking about the case. Yes, and this is a nationally significant race. It's a very significant race. The Democrat Senate majority hinges on this race in some respects, and this and many others certainly. But it's one of them. And I'm a political commentator. Of course, I'm going to talk about these races, right? So no, that's not, that has not been a conversation. Now you have a very large following, millions of people listen to your stream, but also a lot of Americans have no idea who you are. Between August and September, you were mentioned nearly 2,000 times on broadcast TV news, about half of that on Fox News. But most, as I said, Americans don't actually watch your Twitch. And so for them, you kind of came out of nowhere. You're suddenly mentioned everywhere. You're in campaign as Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel's mentioning you on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, the President talks about you. So who is the Hassan Piker that's portrayed in all of these ads and spoken about? And who is the Hassan Piker that you see yourself as? Describe that gap. Who are you? I mean, there's a massive gap. I think the way that I'm portrayed is unbelievably negative, which is expected, especially because they're treating me like I'm a politician or someone who's actually campaigning when I'm not. The problem there is when political attackers take shape on the campaign trail, the candidates themselves also have these massive coffers to re-identify themselves. I don't have that. I have no institutional backing. I have no mainstream media allies, as a matter of fact, even on the liberal side. There are plenty of consultants in Washington, D.C., who also despise me. So they're heavily leaning into these attack ads as well, because I think they're seeing this as a factional battle that's taking place within the Democratic Party right now. They have propped me up as a figurehead of this insurgent left movement. And I'll admit, I've certainly played a role in being propped up into this position as well. I mean, I've campaigned with all of the insurgent left candidates all around the country, fundraised for them, and phone bank for them, doorknoc for them. So there's certainly a little bit of legitimacy to that. Having said that, the way that I'm portrayed in the media is an America-hating, communist, Islamist fundamentalist who wants to secretly do jihad. And then also at the same time, very woken gay, so there's this weird inconsistency in their messaging, I don't fully understand it, but who I am is very simple. I'm a socialist. I'm an anti-imperialist. I want what's best for Americans, and I want what's best for everyone around the world. I feel like we live in the wildest nation on the planet, and I find it unconscionable that there are 600,000 people who go to sleep outside every single night. I find it unconscionable that we do not have a public health care system in this country. We certainly have enough money to pay for it. I find it morally repugnant that we use so much of our productive output, so much of our resources on waging wars overseas, ceaseless, endless, and very bloody wars overseas destabilizing the entire world, instead of using all of that wealth and using all those resources on ourselves. Simply put, that's what I believe. That's what I've been advocating for for the last decade. I try to actively de-radicalize people that are on the far right. I've seen a lot of success in that field. I try to talk to people that are in the margins of, you know, transphobia, homophobia, anti-black racism, and pull them back, and try to explain to them that these reactionary ideas might come across as appealing. But there are actually distractions at the end of the day. And again, I've seen a lot of great success there as well. Alongside many of the mainstream outlets, including those who now attack me, wrote extensively about what I have been doing for the past decade or so, talking about how I was capable of converting young men and bringing them back into the list. Because the first time you really came on scene nationally, it was probably in the spring, and you were really spoken about, like, is he the Joe Rogan of the Left? Can he appeal to the young men that Democrats just cannot appeal to? And that really has morphed now, too, is he a liability? Somebody that Democrats must disavow. How did that narrative shift? Well, Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan of the Left at some point, right? And he also became a liability in the eyes of the Democrats, and there's obviously good reason for that. Having said that, with my experience, it's pretty simple. I said it even back then, when people were looking for a Joe Rogan of the Left, you can't podcast your way out of this problem. The problems are with the party. The problems are with a lack of clear, definable policies that the party represents at the national level. This is a real issue, and we haven't been able to solve this crisis for the Democrats, and that's part of the reason why the Democrats are still largely very unpopular, even though Trump is the least popular political figure, perhaps in history. The party is, yeah, as you point out, not pulling. Yeah. So that's still an ever-present issue. And the other thing I always brought up was that I'm an independent media figure that is also not a party aporantic in the way that, for example, Charlie Kirk was in the way that many Republican commentators are and will continue to be. They serve the interests of the Republican Party. I do not serve the interests of the Democratic Party. I have my own opinions. I have my own goals. I have my own political ideology, and I have policies that I want to see get implemented, and I'm always going to push for that. This is a major issue for the Democrats, because when they said they were looking for their own Joe Rogan on the left, what they meant was someone who will unconditionally and vociferously support all Democrats across the board that will maybe even at times dial back on their criticisms of Democrats when it's worthy. And that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what I do and what I always have sought out to do. You do say incendiary things. You've described some of the things that you say as vulgar. You also describe yourself as a one-man media empire. You do have a huge platform. I've heard you say that. One-man media platform. So one-man media platform. You have the reach of some of these broadcast networks, just yourself. Do you feel a responsibility maybe to dial back some of that language, especially language that you've in the past been like I shouldn't have said it that way. Maybe I shouldn't have talked about. I mean, I think of like Rick Scott. You one time said, well, maybe he should be killed over Medicaid fraud. I don't remember the exact wording. I said if Republicans cared about actual Medicare fraud, they would apply capital punishment to risk God is what I should have said. That would have probably been a little bit better. But it wasn't about like an assassination attempt at Rick Scott, more so, trying to identify the hypocrisy with what Mike Johnson was saying at the time, which is that they were invested in tackling Medicare fraud, but they were just simply trying to cut Medicare. What I'm trying to ask you here is when you look back at these, this wording, however it's meant it is being broadcast to millions of people. Do you think about not saying incendiary things? Yes, I think about not saying incendiary things all the time. I think the issue here is is the medium. Most people don't understand what Twitch streaming is, but simply put, I'm providing extemporary in this commentary on hot button issues in a very contentious environment where there's a lot of back and forth communication with anonymous chatters, anonymous users that can be tuning in from all around the world. In real time for eight hours a day. This, of course, creates tremendous liability, but most people don't understand the medium or the format, and therefore they look at these negatively framed clips out of context clips, and sometimes clips that are in context where I'm engaging hyperbole joking or even deploying a metaphor. And they think that this is a pre-planned, pre-produced segment where I decided to say this, say this thing that they're now seeing in the most negative lens possible. That's a big chunk of the, that's where a big chunk of the problems come from. There is no other way to actually live broadcast real-time news analysis in commentary without some friction. Having said that, I am very careful. I know it sounds crazy to say. Yes, I am. Again, remember, think about what it means to speak for 21,000 hours about politics every single day, for eight hours a day. Every single thought that you've ever had is live broadcasted to an entire arena full of people. Some of those people are tuning in with the express purpose of trying to get a rise out of you so they can clip it and then post it on the internet. This is the media environment that I grew up in. This is the media environment that I developed my platform. I think it's shocking that there's only a handful of clips that people deploy. So you've spoken about 21,000 hours that you're speaking and being clipped out, but you still say the things that you say, are you just making excuses for that language? No, I'm not. I'm just trying to explain to people that it is virtually impossible to be perfect in this medium because most people are just unaware. And they shouldn't be aware of this medium at all. It's Twitch, I understand it. It's supposed to be a gaming platform. It's a very lucrative and now powerful place that you're speaking. And you should hear what some other people are saying on the platform or don't. It's probably better for everyone's sanity that they don't do that. But it's not an excuse. I understand. And I'm very aware of how the language I use can get interpreted. But the reason why I described this over and over again is because I need people to understand this is something that you're Rogan ironically enough back when I was a fan many, many years ago, like more than a decade ago, would talk about quite a bit where he was this trailblazer's pioneer and podcasting. At a time when people didn't fully understand what podcasting was. And the format of having a three hour pure to pure conversation was unique at the time. It just didn't really happen. But that format, albeit new, created tremendous opportunities for out of context, clipping and people would get clipped out of context all the time in these, you know, back and forth conversations. And I remember Joe Rogan constantly complaining about this even back then now having said that his worldview has shifted dramatically in the last decade or so. And I certainly stopped being as big as a fan as I was around, I would say 2015, 2016, when he started having a bunch of white supremacists on his broadcast and offering them favorable interviews. Having said that, it stuck with me that it was more so the media. medium that was creating these interesting media opportunities, a medium that a lot of people didn't fully understand at the time. And nowadays I think when you say, oh, this is an out-of-context clip, most people get it. Most people recognize it for what it is, especially if it's on a podcast. So I think these are the growing pains of Twitch as a platform that being so new. Are there things you regret saying? All the time. And I'm sure that there will be things that I regret saying in the future as well. Do you think that the statements you make as a streamer are the sole reason that they cause such controversy or that you make them while being named Hassan? I absolutely do think that a big part of the problem is that, yes, my name is Hassan. I'm a Turkish-American dual citizen. I grew up in Turkey as well, and I was born here in the United States of America, but I grew up in Turkey. And I think there is this constant need to otherwise people that Republicans engage in and maybe even sometimes liberals fall for as well. And that is certainly an element of it. Of course I say incendiary things, but it's not reflected on in the same way when someone who's white, Christian, born and raised in America is saying incendiary things. As somebody who knows what it's like to feel dehumanized for your ethnic background, for your, I know you're not religious, but being from a Muslim background. And you hear people say, why would you use dehumanizing language like Inbred for some ultra-orthodox Jews or Zionist pig? What do you say to them as somebody who has felt that as well? So great question. I have a policy to be ruthless to those who are bullying others, to be ruthless to those who abide by certain ideologies that are conducting great harm. As far as the language that I deploy that is considered dehumanizing like Inbred, it's one that I, it's one that I use quite commonly as a, as a pejorative, because as a pejorative towards right wing reactionary ideology, ethno supremacist ideology, neo-Nazi ideology, because I find it to be an apt pejorative to deploy considering that these supremacist ideology are often times revolve around ethnic purity, racial purity. It's not, of course, it's not meant to be taken seriously. Having said that, that is the reason why I deploy this pejorative unconditionally across the board. And same with, you know, calling someone a pig, it gets heated at times, you know? I'm a passionate guy, I get angry, I have to, you know, explain my frustration, communicate my frustration somehow, very different format that we have here, obviously. But, you know, I think that a lot of people feel this way, a lot of people get very frustrated. And it's never directed at someone for their actual background. It's usually the actions or their belief system. And oftentimes, and almost all the time, it's their reactionary belief system that causes me to call them a pig or an imbred or something like that. There's another very online person, Tucker Carlson, who you can be more different politically, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you do come to the same conclusions on certain issues when it comes to Israel, Palestine, the continued killings in Gaza. Make that make sense for me. How do you guys agree on a lot of US foreign policy issues? And yet, you're completely different politically. Yeah, I think about that a lot. And, you know, I obviously, I'm still very critical of Tucker Carlson because I find his worldview to be not dissimilar to the ideology that he criticizes in Israel, Zionism being in ethno-supremises, religious supremacist ideology that seeks out the extermination. Yes, that's how I see it. Not everyone sees it that way. No, I understand. I think many people are coming to see it that way, including former Zionist scholars like Omar Bartoff. Right. Well, I mean, I will point out the polling shows that the majority of Americans right now hold at negative view of Israel and its government right now. But the point I was trying to make is that the Tucker Carlson's of the world on the one hand will criticize the actions of Israel, but then also simultaneously want to turn America into Israel, but for Christian nationalists or for wasps, right. And that I find to be very frustrating. I'm an anti-fascist. That is the reason why I oppose Israel. I did not oppose Israel because it's the quote unquote Jewish state or that the violence is being conducted against Muslims and Christians and the hands of Jews. That's not my analysis at all. That's not even secondary in this conversation. I'm against the violence altogether. So when I see someone like Tucker Carlson make an incredibly convincing case who identifies the atrocities, calls it out for what it is. But then also turn around and talk about the great replacement about how whites are being replaced in the United States of America by way of immigration a week after that. I find that fascinating, but it's certainly a cause for concern, at least on my end. So as far as Tucker Carlson's analysis of Israel, do I believe that he legitimately has seen this bloodshed and finds it to be horrifying. It's when you hear him, he's very convincing. So it's tough not to assume that there is there it's tough to assume that that he's being insincere on that issue. Something said that if I were to be super cynical about his ambitions, I would assume that the reason why he's doing this because he understands that there's a sea change happening. He's reading the tea leaves among the American public, among the American public, and even amongst the Republicans as well, especially in the next generation of Republicans, and he wants to get ahead of that wave shift. And he wants to, at the very least, lend credibility as an isolationist anti-war Republican and play a role in a broad coalition that will need to form in the post-Trump universe, in the post-Trump calculus. What are your ambitions? I mean, you have this platform, you're quite famous right now, infamous among some. My ambitions have always been the same. I just, I want to make life a little bit easier for everyone in the United States of America to the best of my ability to build systems that will allow that to happen, to give American workers some dignity and some autonomy in their workplace. And there are numerous routes that we take in pursuit of this goal of this shared agenda. Tourism is simply one route that I'm focusing on currently, because the elections are happening currently. But there are ongoing issues that have, and wounds that have yet to be healed in American society, broadly speaking. And I want everyone to take note of that, to develop an awareness around these issues, and to demand solutions to these problems from their elected representatives, and hopefully make the necessary changes we want to see. Your worldview has gotten you barred from travel in the UK, at least, when you tried to go for a speaking engagement there. You've been questioned upon return to the United States at the border, college campuses debate whether they should have you on their campuses. Is the price you pay for your ideas and your stances hasn't gotten too high? Like I believe that I'm fighting for truth and justice, and no matter what happens, I'm going to continue that pursuit. There is no price that's too high to pay, because at the end of the day, what about your safety? I mean, do you feel safe? No. I don't. No, of course not. I get death threats all the time. University of Texas, Austin invited me to speak, the college Democrats invited me to speak on campus, and people were putting out the schematics of blueprints of the different locations that I was supposed to be speaking on. I see different locations because the college actually changed the venue on numerous occasions, refused to give us the large enough venue to accommodate the 3,000 people that it RSV paid for. I did read that so many people. How many people ended up coming? Like 300 plus, almost 400. the only reason why the number at the end of the day was 400, because they also cut off the line, because, you know, there's metal detectors and we had a limited amount of time in the auditorium that they gave us, so the police actually had to cut the line while people were still waiting to get in. Have you changed the way you live because of that? No, I try to never let fear motivate me in any way, shape or form, and never let these threats change what I'm going to do. And what I'm going to say? You spoke about getting into streaming because out of loneliness during COVID that you built a community online and now you have these millions of followers, but I wonder if that thing that you were trying to solve, if you're back in that place of loneliness given the scrutiny of you and everything you say? No, I certainly don't feel lonely any longer. Look, I didn't start twitch streaming because I felt lonely. I started twitch streaming because I wanted to, I knew that this gaming sphere that I was a part of as a fan had a diverse array of ideologies represented and yet amongst the commentary sphere was all right-wing. So the gamers are diverse, but the people that were doing political commentary that was like gaming adjacent were all right-wing. I also wanted to have a media entity of my own because I was working for the young Turks at the time. My uncles start up YouTube news channel and I wanted a place to call my own and that's why I started. And I also wanted to be able to get better at off-the-cuff commentary because at the time everything I was doing was scripted and pre-produced. I was producing everything. And I just wanted to get better at being able to speak off-the-cuff on political issues. So I saw it as a training ground as well. When COVID happened that's when I was trapped at home just as many others were. And that's when I definitely leaned into twitch streaming as a way to reach out to the outside world. But I think that's what a lot of people in my generation and younger did at the time. Everyone was looking for a sense of community. And I recognized the responsibility in that at the time as well. And I wanted to make sure that this community that we were cultivating fostered healthy attitudes overall. So I would work out on stream for example and urge others to do the same at the same time. Now, as far as a feeling of loneliness now, I do not feel politically isolated at all. Look, even with people kind of distancing themselves. No, not even a little bit. And here's why. I'm a socialist. And I've been doing this for the last 13 years. And 13 years ago, we were in a dramatically worse position overall in this movement, broadly. There are now self-identifying socialist running for office and winning. One of the most popular political figures in the country right now is the mayor of this beautiful cities or Amundani, someone who was fortunate enough to be able to meet early on and even play somewhat of a small role. But a role nonetheless in his primary campaign as well. And he is an anti-sionist, Muslim, socialist mayor of New York City. And not only is he a good mayor, he's also a very popular political figure, the most popular political figure in New York. I'd say that our movement is growing every single day. So this is the least lonely I've ever felt. You mentioned a few times that you're an anti-imperialist. And you're very critical of U.S. foreign policy and the ills that it has caused in the world. But your critics will say you don't level the same scrutiny for countries like Iran, China, which also have imperialist, our imperialist powers have those ambitions. What would you say to that? I'd say that they're wrong. I mean, I criticize foreign adversaries and foreign allies alike all the time. But of course, my criticism is broadly going to feature American foreign policy because I'm an American. And it's twofold actually. It's one because I'm an American taxpayer. And I feel like there's a moral culpability to the destabilizing actions that we commit all around the world. And then also America is the hegemonic superpower. So it has its hands in every pie all around the world. There isn't anything that goes on in a foreign country that America isn't at least observing or maybe quietly interfering in. And of course, this is the reason why I cover American intervention and American ambitions far more than I do. Let's say what China is doing. I mean, I've done coverage on China's foreign policy in Myanmar, for example. China has a very, I mean, I'm very critical of Chinese foreign policy. I think that they are, their attitude is very lies a fair as far as like letting other countries that are committing atrocities continue to do so as long as they're able to continue doing trade with them. They don't really care. China commits its own atrocities. Yes. And of course, as every great power does around the world to varying degrees. And I'm critical of that as well. But I think the reason why a lot of people get frustrated about this or even make this accusation is because they don't want to think about what we are doing. And it's almost a self soothing behavior. It offers a sense of comfort when we think about other countries doing things that America does all the time. I've seen this at least in my own experience because I was, of course, incredibly critical of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And I have been railing against Vladimir Putin. He's a kleptocrat. Even though a lot of people think that Russia is a communist country still. It's very funny. It's not. He's a vulgar ethno nationalist. I oppose his worldview. I oppose his actions. And yet every time, in my experience, every time I would say, you know, Russia is behaving quite a bit like America here. Americans would get mad. And I think people would take that badly. Yeah. People would get very frustrated now understanding that that is not a justification. I'm not actually offering a justification to Russian actions. I'm actually very critical of Russian actions at that moment. I'm saying that this is a irredentious behavior. By comparing it to the US, that they're as bad as the US. So some Americans will hear that and say you hate America. Yes, and they, but I don't. I love America. If I didn't, if I didn't love this country, I wouldn't be here. I think loving a country also requires one to be very sincere and very direct with its criticisms. America holds tremendous promise. So I'm even more critical of America for that reason, the fact that we have so much power and we're squandering it or rather using it for the interest of a tiny sliver of the population that has been able to develop immense power and consolidate tremendous amounts of wealth. I find that to be a porn. I want to change that system. I want to help everyone. Going back to your audience, mostly men, mostly white men, right? And men are falling behind in education, economic stability, mental health. They have higher rates of loneliness. Why do you think that isn't and what happens if that continues? It's a tough one to answer. I think that by and large, there was historically a path for young men, a lot of young white men as well, to go to high school and have an opportunity for upward social mobility by getting a regular job, maybe in the trades. That pathway is closing for many young men in this country. They find themselves rudderless and angry and disillusioned. I think by and large, we've just got to get these guys busy. We've got to get them motivated to do things. That could be political organizing or that could be a job. It's definitely a job. We need to get these guys good jobs and an opportunity to build a family on a single salary like they used to be able to do back in the day. I think when people say, "Oh, we got to make America great," again, that's what they're harkening back to. For some, it might be this idea of having segregated communities. There's certainly a good deal of that. But for many, when they think about that, the promise of making America great again, I think they're thinking about being able to work a factory job and have a family. and be able to raise a family with a single income. What is your angle? Do you want to be a Kingmaker in politics? No, and I've never said I'm a Kingmaker. The media keeps saying this over and over again, but I don't think there can be a real Kingmaker in socialist politics. This is mass politics. I am simply a servant of the people, and I am simply someone who is working in service of a much broader movement. I do not see myself as a Kingmaker. I do not see Zoran as a Kingmaker. I don't see AOC. It is a Kingmaker. I think we are all trying to uplift as many people as we possibly can. Hassan Piker, thank you for speaking with me. Thank you for having me. Just a reminder that new episodes of newsmakers drop whenever they're available. 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