Has social killed craft - or reinvigorated it?

[Music] Hello, welcome to the Drum Podcast, I'm Sam Anderson. We're talking today about craft. I think our first question in a second will be what that word even means, but before we start asking that question, let me introduce to you our two esteemed guests, we have Paddy Smith, who is Chief Creative Officer at Bournemouth Social High Paddy. Hello, I see you. Nice to see you. We have Andrew Tendall, Senior Vice President of Global Partnerships at System One, and indeed a columnist here at the Drum, Hi Andrew. Hello, how are you doing? Very well, thank you. This is our first pod back. In fact, it's my first day back after Christmas, so let me first ask you how your breaks work. Sam, it's the 13th of January. What the hell are you doing? I was technically speaking, painting my flat. I have a new for a while, I consider the flat to be new, although I've lived in it for eight months, I've just done nothing to it. I didn't do any painting of the flat. I just played a game called Slay the Spire in my Pants for a few days. Is that okay? Is that an okay thing to do? That sounds like a perfect use of the Christmas period. How are your breaks? Very good, my end yet. I was back, I've just moved to New York, I've turned up the ball office here, so it was like FaceTime, FaceTime, FaceTime, a bit of life admin and then out, so it was the express version of that, very enjoyable. Andrew, a specific question for you, because I happen to be rereading a column of yours that pertains to today's. I'm glad someone reads them, man. I'm glad someone does. I actually, I've been constantly spent my Christmas doing, but you said in that, reading all my questions. You said in that that every year you and your 15 brothers or 20 brothers or whatever it is, have a tradition, did you keep that tradition up with this year? What is it? Not to the casino this year, is that what you were referring to? Yeah, you didn't have a clue. You didn't have a clue. You didn't go to the casino. Yeah, no, well actually I've just bought a house in London and my boyfriend's moved in, so my family came to me for the first time. It's quite difficult to go to a casino in London, that'd be a weird thing to do, I think. So yeah, we did not do that, but we had plenty of Guinness, which I believe we might talk about on this podcast. Indeed, yeah, we might get to Guinness later. Before we go anywhere in Guinness, let's as proper academics as we are, let's define our terms. The reason I'm asking you to tell me what you think craft is, is we have this debate that sort of circles the drain every few years about whether craft is dead, whether social has killed craft, whether, I don't know, whatever has killed craft, whether one can still be crafty or creative or whatever it is, when one is making marketing or indeed any other kind of creating output. And it feels sometimes like we're talking about a few different things when we talk about craft, right? Like there's the kind of old school tools that we once would have used to have made us, I don't know, a poster or an add on the television. And perhaps those things will change, there's also perhaps something that you might call craft, which is just whatever you are doing when you are making an advert or a piece of marketing or a film or whatever. To the two of you, what does craft mean? Yeah, I'm happy to kick off. I think the best definition I've seen recently, I went to DNA the last year and saw Tio Connoho to VP of designer Airbnb and Dr Paul Marlston, who's a psychologist, talk about craft from like the human perspective. And they got quite a concise articulation around the interplay of care and competence, just care of like taking a lot of time to do something and then competence of having like a deep skill set to do it. And they were talking about it from the human experience, like the craft of the human relationships and then obviously from a design and aesthetic perspective. But I thought they were like good to get into that clear definition, that being the thing that often pushes people from something like like to love, like ignore to obsess, which is broadly our jobs. And I think that was really clear, but like I think that is a good example of where this question originates of its craft there because in the social era, those two things look and feel very different. Like there is increasingly less time, urgency, you know, feels paramount, things that move quickly, it's maybe gain disproportionate amount of traction. And then like competence, the skill sets look and feel very different. There's like the traditional pieces of like, you know, pixel pushing and grading and really, you know, sweating the small stuff versus the social space where it's like rawness rules. You know, you want things that feel increasingly nonsensical or hard to codify. Yeah, and those things feel like they are defining what law of the great social work is. So I think that's like for me, the belief is those two things still exist and craft still exists, but like they definitely have to be re-skinned and re-coded because a lot of that traditional view just doesn't hold up when you're occupying a social space. So you will be our kind of counsel for the defense on this is called a dead question in a minute, Paddy, but just to make the case for the prosecution in absentia. The argument is what? What do you think you're being accused of as a practitioner of creativity on social channels when people say that this world has killed craft? Yeah, I think it's, I think it we're being sort of accused of mimicry and of working in volume and making things that feel throw away that don't feel like they are truly impactful. You know, we're like chasing this fleeting ambition of being, you know, in touch with culture, we're being very quick, we're being reactive and responsive and we're constantly chasing that idea. And I think mimicry gets prioritized, you know, short-termism gets prioritized and I think that is where people feel that most adults with this idea of craft given space to build things that feel novelty original. And I think that is really where like social is basically the smoking gun. It's like you basically created like reactive responsive, truly reactive responsive advertising. A lot of people are just clout chasing because of that and that's eroding, you know, great brand's ability to actually craft original narratives that have longstanding impact. So I think that's where people start and how, why they feel like it's sort of dead and it's socials fault. Yeah, so so broadly speaking, no one can ever speak for everyone, right? But it feels like there's a kind of a me asthma that hangs over the position that we're in in the marketing business right now. There just sort of has this feeling that the really high quality good work is harder to come by harder to do perhaps harder to get finance now. Is that broadly the criticism? Yeah, I think I think that is true to an extent like there does feel like there is less money, certainly less money around single specific opportunities. The budgets are diluted and therefore that idea of having real space to build a narrative craft entirely and then having very immersive spaces, take the TV experience whereby you can relay that in quite a linear fashion, you can sort of control the attention. Yeah, absolutely. I think that is a contributing factor, you know, they're just there are fewer of those experiences. People are looking to places like social for for for quick wins, right to like talk people in very different touch points and really very formats. And so there is just less opportunity to do that and therefore people I think are sort of yeah feeling. So we're on a podcast about about craft and that was terrified when you're about to define craft that you were going to spout a load of wank which is a technical term. But the crossover between care and comptors is possibly the best definition I've heard of that. I think that's genius and I don't know who you are listening to but don't just claim that as your own that should be your own. If we're wearing a week we should we should inquire who did say that so we can give them their pros. I think that's genius. I think I agree like a lot of things in marketing the issue is we all have different definitions for it. Like everyone knows sitting around chin stroking trying to define what an insight is but no one knows and no one cares really when you get down to the effectiveness of notes and bolts. For my point of view I think craft. I think craft my definition of craft comes from Paul Feldwick the author of why does the peddler sing one of the legendary orgy British planners. I think great advertising there's a few things from a creative angle. Often people just think great advertising is unique. Often people judge ideas and add by them then newness which I think is a massive shame because that's only a small part of great advertising. I know there is whether it's broadly interesting and I'm kind of trapped broad attention and that's why I've been right brand and storytelling so great because then it never assumes the interest of the listener or the viewer or the swiper. and there's lots of great research in that around the world. the cost of dull with the IPA, eat big fish and system wandered at can of few years ago. Another is whether it's engaging, moderately engaging, so whether the idea is inherently refreshed for today, there's different ways it can make something engaging. Another which people often forget is whether you can create disguised repetition, so whether you can be consistent or keeping things interesting. And then the last one I think in the input into creativity is definitely craft. And I think craft, the cross between care and competence is not so putting it, but it's essentially whether something is beautiful and has any inherent value because of the craft it has, like the difference between putting your flowers, your bouquet of flowers in a dusty pint of Guinness that you've had knocking around your bedroom for the past few weeks, or pulling out a beautiful vase, that vase has craft, it's beautiful so it has inherent value. So for me that's I think where craft sits for me. And I don't think anyone's accusing social of ruining craft. I just think craft looks different on social, right? Totally. And I think your point on beauty there is really valid because yet beautiful, there are some media connotations with that, but what's beautiful, what's good in social, doesn't necessarily reflect what we've been taught about, historic advertising and brand building and beauty can be the rawness, right? It can just be how wild and weird something feels, how true it is to the person who's speaking. And even in things like we see right now behind the scenes, stuff like that is often far outperforming the beautiful craft did traditionally good looking adverts because beauty is this idea of showing the process being brought behind the curtain, given extra perspective. So I think it is that idea of shifting the view of what beautiful looks like, giving more perspectives on that and that's then how you can showcase craft can still exist and lots of brands can still do it in new ways. Yeah, I think the best example of that is my favourite film, Interstellar. There's a load of clips now all over TikTok and Reels of people redoing that scene where he's behind the bookshelf trying to speak to himself in the past. Oh, so good. And like brands have jumped on this and like, like, redone that scene. But it's got so much craft, it's insane. Like the level of detail, care and obsession and competence. The level of craft of the imitating is what's saying. Yes. Yes. Yes. That is what craft looks like in social to me. The care and competence, understanding the platform enough, going to that effort, which kind of also does signal, you know, from a behavioural side, it's probably why craft cares and this, you know, what gets us onto AI slot conversation, no doubt. Would be the behavioural side's point of view is about costly signaling. So advertising lives within a context. Quite like at Christmas. You know, if one or two people keep running this in Christmas that every year, so be it. But if everyone starts doing it, then the context signal is we don't care. We've got nothing new to say. Whereas craft does the opposite. Craft shows that you've put so much care and obsession and time into something. That it signals that you should care as well because the brand, the creator, the artist, the creator has put that much effort into it as well. Which, you know, is it one of these tertiary signals in advertising, which doesn't get talked about enough? Presumably, one of the things people are saying or hinting at, whether it's, comes from an emotional place or an augmented one, when they say about the death of craft or however they couch it, is a kind of intrinsic thing. It's overall just nice if we make nice things made nicely and end up looking nice. But presumably there's an angle on this that is more mercenary, Andrew. But what do we know overall about what the value of craft is? Anyhow, what the uplift might be in terms of effectiveness or other metrics? Yeah, that's a great point. So we've got a new book coming out in a few weeks with Effie called The Creative Dividend, which is a full exploration of connecting system ones, creative data with Effie's global insights database. All there Effie Awards case to is across the US and Europe, looking at the business and brand effects of part of the media investment, but also the creative side. And there's different ways to create what we call the creative dividend, which is essentially you be more creative than the other campaigns in your category. We measure the outputs of this through the emotional response, how distinctive something is, how inherently right-branded it is. So entertaining, but also how consistent it is. And what we learn with that is creativity is an additive, it's multiplicative, which is again, a very wonky way of saying, you can do one thing really well to compensate for another. So if something is really interesting, consistent and entertaining, it doesn't necessarily have to have craft, or something could have a load of craft, which helps build that emotional response. And maybe it's not as distinctive, but it almost covers up for that. So I don't think it's as simple as we need craft to deliver. But what we do see, I mean we saw it in our admin publication called Putting On A Show where I think we can all agree if anyone has craft, it's admin, this decades and decades of creating a lot of buster, amazing movies and films, Wallace and Grommett, Chicken Run, ETC. But they also have secretly been making about 100 ads in their back down, which you won't even know that they've been making. The original. What's that butter, a lurpak, the lurpak butter man with all the noise? I remember that ad for the noise. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Where he's playing the trombone. And there's thumbiness in what admin do. You can see the thumbs in the clay. That's how much craft has gone into it. We actually saw that. Yeah, admin, a very right brand, they're very emotional, very distinct work. But there's something else which explains why their average ad they make is a five-star in system once testing. And it's craft, like it's that lift of that care and competence, as part of you would just say, that signals to the viewer that time, effort and skill has gone into this. And it's something humans inherently love. That's why anything admin really make scores so highly in that testing is that this is lift this craft multiplier. I will say that, you know, Adam make a lot of stuff with clay, but they also use animation and stuff like this. So it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be met with clay. You can still have craft by using modern creative techniques. Perhaps like AI. Okay. Well, let's save the AI thing. You've dropped the bell. Oh Sam, stop AI teasing all our listeners, please. Give it a go. Well, maybe we are talking about AI already. Maybe it's inevitable. Maybe as is faded, we are always only ever talking about AI now anyway. I did think about this today. Do you remember when you could get for a day about anyone mentioning protein or AI to you? And I just feel like especially in January. It's just all like, it's all I fucking talk about. Well, people get their trends brain on in January and I suppose it's hard to think beyond being there. It's probably even worse than usual in this bit at a month. But what I was saying was I think we've kind of reached what I think might be the kind of crux of the question, which is, which is, you know, if we're asking this question that is somewhere between craft and creativity and the world of digital media of social media broadly, the question really is, does that world make it, make for an easier or tougher environment to do crafty stuff? Is the question, I suppose. And you know, we can, we can, we can debate that idly from our arm chairs as long as we like. But the proof I suppose will be in the pudding and one of the one, you're the pudding in this example, Paddy. Because you're doing the work, right? And do you feel, I suppose you're a young man, I'm trying to get a gauge or eight. You've probably only ever worked in the era of social creativity. So I don't know, I suppose you'll have anything to compare it to. But do you feel like the world is making it, is in the business at the moment of making easier for you to do crappy things or high. Yeah, Paddy the pudding I'll take that as maybe to the nickname for the slice. There it is. Yeah, you're right. I've only ever. I've only been using the book ice in a way I haven't done before and I think that's the clip there, isn't it? Paddy the pudding. I'll be the slice. I love the slice. Yeah, that's my jingle. There's some KBAs for me. That's craft with we're already on it guys. Yeah, yeah, of course. I've only, I've only ever worked in social space really. I've been working on some of the graphic design background, but that's been my professional experience and, you know, of course, I'm a bit biased and sort of take all these things with a pinch of salt. But I believe maybe it's the first cup of our answer of the day, but like it is a bit of both. I think the thing that I'm most inspired about working in social industry is this idea of democratisation. And I think this is where, you know, to use that example with the arb and piece, the thumb prints is such a good visceral representation of that craft. You know, I think when you spoke about it in that report, you talk about that as like that level of detail respects the audience time. It really does show that reward to them for that participation. And I think that like respect for audience time is really important, but really hard to do. And the reality is it's because rules are being defined by people not brands. They're not built for brands. They're built for people. And brands are trying to sort of interpret and inherit them and force them together with all of their, you know, traditional and arguably bureaucratic bureaucratic processes. So like, yes, I think it makes it easier because it's lowered the barrier to entry for so many people. It means that anyone can broadly express themselves and you'll see that in how so many people have come from one traditional creative background and become superstars where I like creators are now the celebrities and and the English wins get, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here. But at the same time, it just nuances all the definitions of what craft and creativity is. And it takes them so much further, such subtle things. And I think, you know, you mentioned earlier, there is this reputation of brands showing up and ruining the party. And you have heard of like silenced brands, you know, like silenced brand, which is when brands come in. They try and claim the craft clout, but they don't do the homework to understand what the craft of that moment is. They don't go further enough on the copy, the reference point. And that is craft, like that really, really understanding the cultural code, the reference, what the joke is, how it's evolved in the last 24 hours requires a massive amount of thought. And that thought most brands on willing to do or don't know how to do. And I think that to craft them is really hard to do because it's no rule book. And you're going to get cooled out. You're going to get hung out to dry publicly. It's two way. I think this is why I broadly believe it's a bit of both because if given you access, but it's made the like definitions so much harder to understand. And it's and it will publicly sort of shame you for getting it wrong, which obviously is like exacerbating risk of version, which is compounding the issue. Could people are investing time because they're worried about it or they're gravitating toward these he wins, which lowers the bar for everyone. So yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. I would say I go more bullish actually, but only for a challenge of brands because I am smaller, smaller brands as far as because look when the advent of social ETC has really removed the idea of paid earned and owned. So, Pari, I think it might be younger than you still, but I was still trained on paid earned and earned at the end of the year, to believe is one of your clients. It is. Yeah, but it's so weird how quickly things change that matter. I think paid earned and earned or I think someone tried to put it into an acronym and an email to me, the direction, maybe me and me vomit. I think that kind of era has gone already because most advertising now can be avoided. You can skip or you can pull out your phone or look at something else essentially. There's a much more positive environment. So even your paid stuff can't assume attention. It must earn it. And then to get any reach on your earned and earned, it has to earn attention anyway. So really any content a brand makes needs to be entertaining, well branded and strategically sound. Otherwise, what the hell are you doing with your life? I think that's all formed out. So then in which case it's really screwed large brands because the malt that large brands had was I can afford a TV ad and you can't. So screw you. I can reach millions of people and carry on my brand building. In fact, you know, 20 years ago you'd start a brand with a TV ad. You'd get enough investment to do your TV ad and that's how brands grew. And that's the era of how brands grow by a bar and a shop talks about which you should desperately try and create a more modern version at some point. So the shift towards social and craft level and the level of the playing field means that actually you've removed the big brand mo and these challenges smaller brands and smaller creators now. Well, if they can be more creative than big brands, then they can win. That's how creators have now popped up. There was a new era very briefly where it was that is it an influencer? And the creator and influencer was only had a big following book with shit up social. A creator is, oh, someone that cares about what they do and that's why people follow them. Well, the influence is now jogged on like it's the internet is owned by these creators that understand how to do the craft on these platforms. So I actually think it's completely leveled the playing field, but it's screwed big brands. And if big brands don't bring in that talent and that mind that way of thinking and perhaps the right agency partners deliver it, then yeah, then they're screwed really. Yeah, I really agree with that. I think that you then see this yo-yoing of what we don't necessarily understand this. So we'll lean heavily into what it is and we'll just align ourselves with the narrative quite quickly. Then you might get the cloud, but you don't get the attribution and then there's this constant balancing act of doing things that feel connected to culture, but ultimately attributed to the brand, you know, memorable, create the right memory structures. And that is, I think, craft as well is that sweet spot. It's like trying to find the perfect combination of those things. I agree. That's really high professional. Yeah, I'm not just chasing trends. I mean, Sam, I believe you're the number one reader of my weekly column in the drum. Yeah, closely, closely in front of my mom and I wrote something about this a year ago. When, remember, whenever, when everyone was losing their shit of a moody, moody was that tiny baby hippo that was like greased up and it was the most famous thing. I managed to avoid moody. I didn't know that it was greased. It was like a greasy glossy hippo. It was artificially greased the hippo. It was artificial. And then everyone's in our moody skin care routine. I brought moody parts by by before we move on. I just want to was moody and greasier than the average hippo or just our hippo is greasy. Definitely. It was a greasy hippo. Okay. Maybe small miniature greasy hippo. This thing was the most famous concept. People were traveling the world this thing and brands were like all over it. But they were jumping on these ideas and you know, we're getting attention. But as you just point out, Paddy, they were leaving the fundamentals of marketing out the equation. And they were leaving them at the door of the zoo when they were going in to play with moody. There was no distinctiveness. It wasn't building on their strategy. It wasn't consistent with anything they were doing. But I'm sure there'd been a lot of back slapping because, oh wow, what about moody angry also reached a million people? Hang on. Where are we on the question about craft here? I think we've lost that question on craft there. What I was talking about my favorite hippo sound. Greasy or no is an interesting case study for this because it would be very easy for the critic that says this world has indeed a craft to say, look, for a patch there, we had all of the creatives in the world chasing how to get on a meme about moody. The similar example that you shared earlier, Andrew, of the interstellar meme parodies and saying some of those actually from a craft point of your quite good is maybe an indication that you can do the kind of virality, mean thing with a certain degree of craft. For sure. For sure. But the question remains, has this world made it harder to be spending your time as an advertising creative or as a person trying to build a brand on things that are crafty rather than rather than viral. And actually to call back to another one of the pieces of your own entries. I was reading that one that I mentioned earlier that was from my space December of last year and you use the example in there of is it little moons? Is that the brand? Yeah. You pointed out that in that case, you know, there was a certain degree of virality and they were clever to spot that that variety would end so often does. And what they did is they pivoted to spending money on paid media. Yeah, so, shall we? What we're doing here is we're getting dangerously close to moving from a high-brow conversation about craft to actual marketing effectiveness. So you've got my attention. Paddy doesn't seem happy about it. But look at that. The question we almost, well first we, and it's again, in manual book coming out in two weeks called the Cray of Diveren, what we must accept, let's say you can add the same dimensions before we go. If anyone cuts that, I will refuse to be part of this podcast ever again. It's called Moodying. There you go. First of all, we're just accepting advertising works, which I don't, you know, it's very simple, you know, it's creativity plus reach. And then we get some clarity here. I think what marketers need to be aware of with social is that there's a massive opportunity cost to all of this. And once you accept that advertising must be about reach and that scaling creativity and these two are interplaying with each of the perhaps forming what you could call excess share of creativity, which I might have told my party now would not say the words until the new book is out, but perhaps you could call it that. It's a minuscute. We've got a minuscute, but you know, I'll just pretend I never said it. Once you accept those two things are interplaying, you get immense clarity in social. So one is that the little news thing you were just talking about, they were going viral for Philip Afluch, like realistically, it's very hard to manufacture virality. And if Paddy pretends to know how to do it and promises it you in a brief, I will call him out on it. Please send any day. It's the same money. Is it? Yeah, yeah. If he tries to sell you that he could take you viral, I will personally hold him accountable. No one knows, but little news blew up and they use that viral free reach. Macters are all varying to the idea of free reach to grow their physical distribution. They're gone into Sainsbury's and their brand blew up, but they could see the end was now because they're smart marketers. This is an IPA case that if you wish to go read it. So they turned on paid reach for paid social and they even turned on TV. And little news turned into one of the challenge of brands that made it because of that very smart move. So and then I often, because in our research, Francisco Antictock, the long and the short form of it, a playbook to how to use creators to build brands. ETC, people often come and ask me after sessions we run on that and go, great, my business has given me an objective here to create 500 pieces of creator content. And that's how we're going to measure how we're doing here. That's the opposite way around people should be thinking about it. What you should be doing is working with professionals to create strategic quality content that you work out how to repeatedly scale. So I'm of a opponent of paid reach. The opposite and better idea to hiring 500 random creators that I could make you a pile of crap, some with crafts, some without, but it'll be going to the casino is working out what craft means for your brand on social with its strategy and then doing guarantee reach, i.e. putting paid and scaling it behind. So I think all of this sits in a very ingesting space. And I think a lot of brands have it have it wrong and a lot of brands that are doing it right, Paddy are admittedly working with you guys and you don't pay me to say that. This is neither an ad for Andrewsburg or for Paddy's agency. This is a conversation. We all agree. Thank you. I do before we because we must wrap up soon but before we do I want to go back to Paddy really because the the kind of thesis that you put forward in this sort of debate or conversation or whatever it has been having is broadly speaking that craft has evolved. Right. And we spoken about the likes of Ardman. And in fact, I think perhaps inevitably, perhaps for many people when we have these conversations it's Ardman that I'm thinking of like unbidden right. Andrew used the word thumbiness right there. I am thinking of people spending painstaking hours over creating something that someone could do a poor proxy of in five minutes and indeed can do a much quicker poor proxy of now thanks to AI. If it's evolved what is the new thing that we can identify craft by if it's not thumbiness? And indeed that there will be people who are making dummy content on digital channels of course. But if there is an evolution what does it look like? Yeah. I don't think there is one single thing. I think the most prominent is like warness reality. I think that like yearn to see the true perspective obviously exacerbated by AI Slomp. We're back to AI. We made it full circle which is that ironically is in pursuit of perfection things looking very, very real which I think is why I'm in the truth gap pushing people to authenticity. It's why things like behind the scenes, it's why employee advocacy is so prominent on social at the moment because they just are they are themselves. You can't hide there's no curtain. So I'd argue it's that and like I think I agree with Andrew that these things shouldn't, they're not it's not either all they're not mutually exclusive you know paid and earned should work together. I think where we're seeing real successes leading with an earned first mindset and using traditional ways to rebuild that as as brand narratives. You know we work with Guinness part of the Agio, the OGs Andrew. Is another brand that we should say is not in any way a sponsor of this up to the number of times we've collectively said the word Guinness. They're not. But if anything, if it's a video, if it's ever makes the video I am work if for the audio listeners I am wearing my Guinness merch right now because that is part of my contract with Guinness. I'm wearing my Guinness merch. Yeah I'm drinking four pints of Guinness as we say. If I did think I suppose we're collectively unwittingly making the point that the two of you are both making about the the collapsing of the barriers between paid earned and owned and whatever because we're actually doing paid work for we sort of are doing paid work Guinness because because both of you are paid by the world is died go on. Sorry. No no totally agree and yeah I think what we've been experimenting with is you know as Andrew said that disguise repetition at the necessity of repeating the same codes over and over again. I think I was really interested in reading the long short form of it where some of those historic views are best practice. I'll actually like eroding trust like slamming the logo straight in has started to like erode trust and you have to reinvent what those codes are and you know for us like we do have to do that job of distinctness have to show the liquid have to show the branding have to feel top of mind and the way in which we've had the most successes actually empowering people to remake and remaster it with their own perspective literal like artists creatives and a lot of like giving up equity of the brand so there's a there's an amazing being at the moment that's there's a few mill of them flying around Europe it's the sort of pint of you which has a cutout of it in a silhouette like distilled down the KBAs to its truerist form still distinctive but doesn't like erode the process and how people are taking endless photos through that using that as a lens to show their reality and I think that's the point of rawness and realness a brand can create a brand platform which is for them is lovely day for a Guinness and they can say what it means but it's it's experienced and remembered and resonates when it's actually true to what the real people are doing with it and then you've got this amazing equity co-created still distinctive that then can be formed back and you know propelled with paid and become a brand narrative and that's I think the ambition of social first creative is bubbling up from the bottom still you know still attributes with brand true real raw and then you know given space to breathe and explode two thoughts there one is anyone that's not been indoctrinated at Diagia KBA means key brand asset which Paddy keeps saying there it is yeah put that in the Akron imbinder and my second thought is Paddy there's a lot of shit that gets spouted on podcasts but you've just I don't even know if you've done it from purpose you just dropped a pearl a pearl of modern marketing wisdom there where what's unique about so I like to think about all I believe every person in business should report into marketing because I'm a freak that is obsessive marketing and I see all things are as a communication channel on a scale between how how two way they are so how much you you can get feedback to and from the customer i.e the sales person is the most two way comms channel and the TV at TV and is the least is the most one way and social allows you because it sits in the right place on this scale to actually take in insights back and what I think the role of owned for brands these days is and you just said it with a forgiveness there, you know, Guinness's brand platform is lovely day, lovely day for a Guinness. But the playground of social allows you to understand what that means this quarter and this half and what it means in 2026 and sometimes you land on something so brilliant you can scale it beyond even social. So the Guinness, the highest scoring beer ad or TV beer ad in System 1's testing is Guinness Zero's Singing Pints where there was a social trend where people were blowing into the foam on the top of the Guinness and making it look like the Pints were singing. Guinness took that insight which I guess is part of a lovely day platform to be honest and turned it into a TV ad and it was just a singing Pints of 30 seconds and it's highest scoring beer ad in System 1's testing. Like I think smart brands these days are using social to understand what their brand positioning and their creative platform means to actually create disguise repetition. So is that an example of craft then? Yeah we're all relatively to craft because we're on the craft platform. I don't know Sam, I don't think it is. I define craft quite clearly at the start of the podcast. Leave me alone man. I'll say it is. I'll say that for yes. You think it is. Yeah, I mean it's comfortable. Well, I said it's comfortable. I'm not made for you guys but for making us talk about the topic at heart. But it's an interesting question. I'm just writing this job. I'm so sorry Sam. It's effective, right? You've proven via data that is effective. It's kind of fun. It's interesting certainly. But I suppose that gets to the number of things. Is it craft or is it kind of jumping on a mean trend? Can it be strong? No, not using it. It's craft because the people that made that and run whoever Guinness's social have so much care about the platform of social and competence with it that they can create those kind of campaigns assets and ads. So I love and I'm going to steal. I'm not even going to quote it's you, Paddy. I'm going to say that I came up with care meets competence for craft. Oh you're right. Yeah. Yeah. It means having enough care to understand the world of social and competence to execute it. And I think your family view social through that lens as well. Creators make sense because creators care about their platform and have worked out how to do it properly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I say yes it's craft because it is a good example of making something that feels traditionally craft like it's a beautiful thing that advert and it works and the song choice is incredible and all the elements of traditional crafts but it's informed by reality. It's actually connected to the rituals or we call those rituals and the real thing people do with your product. It's not formed in isolation and because of that I think it resonates more because it's just like true that is how people are interacting with the product. It propels that further, recreates that ritual which bubbles up more and it just like compounds the strength of it. So I absolutely think that's craft and it might seem small and craft would be like oh the lighting song choice but the craft starts sooner than that and that is what it is. I think we ended up with quite a good example. It will be maybe by accident to test the whole theory of the thing. That almost sounded planned. I liked it. Okay. Paddy, thank you for joining us. Andrew, thank you for joining us. I hope any creative listen to this is just so irritated by us trying to define craft and your careers. Please direct all anger at the drum and yeah. Well as you say, any engagement is engagement. Alright, thanks everyone and we'll hit the same fight.