Has politics changed forever?

A.B.C. Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more. Want to know what's keeping A.B.C.'s business reporters busy? America isn't going to lose its dominant position, but it's probably going to see it whittled away and it's important to diminish over time. Join me, Carrington Clarke, host of A.B.C. business daily every Monday through Thursday. As I sit down with my fellow journalists to chat everything from markets to monetary policy, find A.B.C. business daily on A.B.C. Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts. This wasn't an accident. This was a deliberate act. The Prime Minister's stark words following a devastating alleged attack on independent MP Helen Haynes yesterday afternoon who remains in a critical condition. As Australia learns more about what unfolded outside her Whangarata electorate office, shock is turning to urgent questions about the safety of our elected representatives. Calls to turn down the political temperature are growing louder. But is that the right message? Welcome to politics now. Hi, I'm Patricia Carvellas. And I'm Raf Epstein from A.B.C. Radio Morning's in Melbourne. It's a huge day for both of us covering what is a very difficult story, Raf, particularly because we're in Victoria, where, of course, this attack unfolded. It's the biggest story, I think, in the country, not just today, but I think it will be for a while. To give everyone an important summary of what's unfolded, we're recording this kind of mid-middle of the day on Tuesday, independent MP for Indy, which is an electorate in Victoria. Helen Haynes is 65. She remains in a critical condition after being struck by a vehicle outside her electorate office in Whangarata. She was struck twice by a car that had you turned. Haynes was taken by ambulance to Whangarata Hospital. Then she was airlifted to the Alfred in Melbourne, obviously, one of the top hospitals in Melbourne. And just a warning, the next bit is quite confronting. This is what we know as we record. There will be more health news than emerges when you perhaps listen to this. But we have just confirmed she has lost a leg from her injuries. It all occurred at about 335 on Murphy Street. It involves this white Toyota Land Cruiser. We have named this man. He's a 43-year-old man in her electorate. There's a lot of discussion now about his social media feed. What perhaps motivated him, although as we record this, Raf, the police have not confirmed that. We don't know. So we, you know, that's our role here. And I think it should be everyone's role if I'm to be honest. We cannot make a judgment. Like, you can't look at someone's feed anyway and go, "Oh, that's why." Because it also is, it's incoherent. You cannot. That's not how policing works. And obviously, a legal process will have to happen. But just zooming out, we all knew it was bad. Because, you know, I certainly did. I nearly had the Helen Haynes of my show, which I've been reporting on morning. Like, she was due to come on my show. Then my producer says in my ear just to tell you how the sausage is made. "Hey, there's been an accident." Helen Haynes' office has just called me, "She can't come on." That's unusual because she's so reliable. And what's happened? He said, "Look, they've just said she can't." And then within an hour, we find it. It's not just an accident. It is, you know, and then the Prime Minister and Tony Berks stand up at 7pm on Monday night. And this is an inferno now, right? Because of the high stakes of it all. Still, we're not going to be able to answer everyone's questions. We're just trying to give you the skeleton before we get to the big questions that will emerge. It's had a chilling impact on every MP. Every MP is quite freaked out by it. They've known something might come. But this one has just blindsided everyone. Yeah, it's interesting. You see the words blindsided, PK, because I think. Yeah, definitely everyone's shocked. What's been really stunning to me is not many people are surprised. The Liberal Senator James Patterson was explicit this morning. He said he was not surprised. I'm sure you weren't. We've been hearing about the concerns people have had for some time. Just to return to what we know about the attack, this barber in Wangerada, whose shop is next door to Helen Haynes' electorate office, he was giving an account to the ABC. So, according to the Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke, the vehicle is repeatedly rammed against Helen Haynes. I know that's hard to hear. But then this barber says he and others rush to help her. Someone sits in front of the car that's been used to attack, to stop it being used again. And then this barber pulls the driver out of the car. This is what he told the ABC. And this barber who didn't want to be called a hero, then says I saw a knife in his pocket. He wasn't reaching for the knife. But I didn't like the idea that he had a knife in his pocket. So I took it from him. And that's how we end up with the police statement that the police have the car and found a knife in his car. So there's a lot we don't know. We know that he's been spoken to this 43-year-old by police. The other thing we haven't mentioned, there is a counterterrorism task force that's been set up. So usually whenever there's an incident with the potential for, it doesn't mean there was a political reason to the violence. But if there's the potential for politics being the cause for the violence, the Australian Federal Police get together with the state-based police force. In this case, it's the Victoria Police. And they'll work out whatever they manage to work out. I think what's really just a return to what you said about blindsided. You and I know because we're privy conversations with politicians. How much they are under threat. How many threats they receive. You and I also know because we just live in the rest of the world. How the temperature has raised. Anyway, like if you work in a hospital or at a supermarket, you know how much angrier people get. How they carry out their view of the world on unsuspecting strangers. So I think there's a real, I think wake up call is something to add to blindsided. Maybe if we just talk about the way some of our politicians have been responding to it, I was really struck by, well, a few things. Firstly, both the PM and people like Barnaby Joyce, the now one nation MP, just reminding everybody what people might not always have at the front of their minds. Australia is a bit unique. We are really a country where even the Prime Minister can go to a cricket game in his electorate. And I think he used the words this morning, sit on the hill of the cricket, have a beer, have a hamburger, and people can kind of just come up to him. The security around someone, like a PM watching, if they're watching. But there's tons of MPs, ministers even, who genuinely, Barnaby Joyce is saying people just come up to an airport. They like him, they don't like him, they tell him. That's actually something that people like Barnaby Joyce and Anthony Albanese really value. I think we all value. And I think the sense of shock that comes through in the coverage that comes through in people called my show is, oh no, like, is that over? We don't want to be like America where I think right now Donald Trump doesn't go to any open air space unless, you know, gazillion people go through it and check for security. So I don't know, what do you make of? Let's return, I guess, to the person at the centre of it, PK. Let's tell everyone a bit more about Helen Haynes, because there's been a universal response to the fact that it's happened to her, right? I think what I said blindsided, that's actually what I was referring to. Because Helen Haynes is such a thoroughly well-liked across the political divide from the right to the left, like people like Bob Catter, you know, on the right-wing side of politics and independent loves her. You will hear her being lauded by labour people, liberals. You know, she's not, and there are some independents who are not. They are more controversial, I'll use that word, as in spark strong reaction. And I'm not criticising that, I sometimes spark a strong reaction from people rough. Like, I think that's fine, you should, that's not a, I don't, this is where I'm going with this, why people are blindsided. Because they did not, they thought it would happen and they didn't know when, because A. Z.O. has been warning, the AFP's been warning, there's more complaints than ever, there's more threats than ever. Don't have the number of complaints against politicians. More than a thousand in the last year, so that's huge. Everyone, and I'm just telling you in terms of the organic response, Helen, right? So this is interesting, and this is where I want to go with this. This is where I tried to go on my piece, we'll put, we'll link it in the show notes. I get why people feel that way, because she's so consensus-based, her own temperament is so inclusive, she's so well-liked. So I understand it seems like, why would anyone want to hurt her? Yeah? But I think that misses the point. If you think you can just be a nice guy, or not say very contentious things, although some people might find what she says contentious, it's all in the eye of the beholder, and that somehow inoculates you from potential violence. We're getting in the territory of victim blaming for the more divisive politicians. If Pauline Hansen, or Anthony Albanese, or Angus Taylor, or I could keep going, we're attacked. I don't think it's any more justifiable. Of course not. Violence is wrong, full stop. It's a principle, it's a belief, That's the rule of law. That's why we believe it's wrong. But there is something in she stood up for, and I guess maybe this goes to Blindsided, she's kind of the epitome of the integrity matters in politics. She's the epitome of the person you vote into Parliament trying to represent the voters who got her over the line. So I think there is your 100% right that it's never justified, but that adds to the sense of shock. Maybe we should get though PK2, I mean, how many times have you heard Anthony Albanese say? And he always says it slowly, "We've got to bring the temperature down." He said that last night, he's been saying it this morning, "Do you think it's the right message?" Because I tell you what, I feel after a morning taking talk back, interviewing the Victorian Premier Ben Carroll, when he pointed to misogyny and one nation's rhetoric as two of the things that he sees as being things that are raising the political temperature and the furious response agreeing, disagreeing everything to be brutally frank, I feel punch drunk after this morning's conversation. I don't feel like it's low at the temperature at all. I feel like the temperature has been raised, like I feel like it's just exposed all of the cracks. The right languages are the right message. Yes, but with caveats. So yes, and everyone agrees, I'll give you an example, Barnaby Joyce, one nation now. He says, "One nation will," and I quote, "consider things after being asked whether the recent debate had become too heated and if politicians needed to learn to argue better." He says, "We're in a discussion to consider that." So obviously within one nation, he has signaled very clearly here, you know, when we're talking about their contentious cartoons that are very, very offensive to some people and depict people badly, that he's obviously one of the people I'm guessing from this and from talking to him, who's arguing in their internal, you know, let's be one nation still, but let's work our tone down, tone it down. So yes, it is the right thing, but it's not the only thing, yeah? It's the extremeness of the emotions and behaviour, which we need to engage with as the problem, left, right, whatever it might be. It's not just what, if it was, it would be actually easier for us to resolve if it was just a right-wing problem. It would, wouldn't it? Or just a left-wing problem. You know what I'm saying? I do. Because it's something deeper in the entitlement of, and the kind of, you know, getting fired up and the fire is so strong in you that you have no impulse control or you have no ability to temper. Well, it's a little bit more than that, isn't it? Well, it's a lot more than that. If it is, I am so fired up, you can't tell me anything. You cannot teach me anything. If I disagree with you, you are not only the problem, not only is it that I have nothing to hear from you, you are my enemy to the point where maybe violence is justifiable. I think it's close to 10% of Australians now agree with the sentiment in the McKinney Index that violence is sometimes acceptable as a political solution. Our conversation, so to go back to what the Victorian Premier, the Labor Premier, who's fighting for his government's life, to be honest, when he said to me this morning, "Retrick around, grievance, retrick around, the system's rigged, rhetoric around. All politicians are corrupt. That's the stuff that needs to be called out." He was saying, "That's the stuff that contributes to violence like this." He was also saying it's about 14 years since Julia Gillard gave her misogyny speech. I think there's more unanimity around that. I think it's very clear, female politicians dare I say at PK, female broadcasters, they attract a level of vitriol and threat that I know I don't get. I know because I see the threats directly on my screen that come to me and then who come to my female colleagues. So I think the misogyny part of it is pretty real. We are, and this is violence against a woman, so I think that's real. But to come back to the partisan nature of it, what I found myself really struggling with this morning is Ben Carroll's calling out one nation supporters and some of my talkback calls are saying, "Look at one nation, they say racist things, they stir up hate. This woman called Nicole Ring from Ballarat, which is also in regional Victoria." And she was saying, "Look, I'm Muslim. They are making my life hell." And they are the problem. It's just completely irreconcilable. And when I asked you if it's the right message to bring the temperature down, I just, I can't use that as a template because on the one side, one nation people say, "The system is rigged," or politicians are corrupt. That's not incitement of violence. And then the other side of people are saying, "No, no, one nation of the people creating the problem." I just don't understand and the thing I really struggled with this morning on the radio is, how do you bring the temperature down? Once you have to say, bring the temperature down. And on the one hand, some of the words from the Azeoboss, Mike Burgess, were so eloquent and so smart, he was saying, "By all means disagree, but consider how you disagree." Like, this is great. This is the head, this is the head spook, head domestic spine, the country, great language though. By all means protest, but consider how you protest. By all means criticize elected officials, but consider how you criticize elected officials. I mean, I had people from right and left saying, "Right, we've got to bring the tone down." I just, I really struggle with how, we're in a place where we're so polarized and it's so personal, political disagreements, I sometimes feel like everyone's saying it. The Azeoboss, the prime minister of this country, feels to me like the horse is bolted. But at the same time, like, we've got to bring the temperature down. Oh yeah, I mean, the horse could have bolted, but there's always preventative work to be done. This particular thing has happened, Helen Haynes, I mean, let's be frank here at this stage as we record. She's lost a leg and there could be more to emerge. But that doesn't mean we can't, you have to believe you can prevent the next attack or that you can change hearts and minds or convince people that there are more productive ways to get really active. Can I challenge you? You can, but I don't know if I'm wrong. When you have, when you have private conversations with politicians and other journalists, do people, the way they respond to you, do you think they believe change is possible? There is, there is a sense of, yeah, people feel like they've given up at the moment. I do. You are right. Like, it's all too hard. I think let's just pack up and end the podcast then. Well, why are we even talking? So my, my, my entry point is that can't be good enough if you believe in the, in the democratic project, which can I say is, is a vex project. I mean, things do happen more efficiently in China. Like, democracy is a lot of work. Yeah. But we believe in it. We do the work. But we leave it, even though sometimes it can be more cumbersome, irritating. I think sometimes, but because it is the, is the best of a kind of version of what we could possibly have that we've found so far as humanity that gives us some ability to have an influence over our, you know, experiences in this country at the very least. You know, I think we have more limited impact on the globe. That's a whole other debate, but in our own backyards. And so Helen Haynes is the best of us in terms of a consensus model, a way of trying to, I remember. We've had many private discussions, which I'm not going to give away because I don't have her consent, but with her about, you know, the way she's grappled with things where her own views may have sometimes been at odds with her community and how to reconcile that and be, you know, a proper representative MP lots of politician struggle with that. Yeah, but she did in a really, I don't know, deliberative way probably because of the model of the, the sort of voices for Indy how she got elected, how that's based on genuine community participation rather than a party line. Anyway, that's, you know what I mean? She's, I do think they've built something very complex to try and reflect a view. My point is, here is somebody really deliberative about it. You know, we said we would not be holding back on the personal is political. I mean, but we know a lot of these people, I know Helen really well. She was literally unpacking her car to get in the electorate office to do an interview with me. So I feel it really profoundly because I had a moment, I had a moment of guilt. I thought I wish we didn't book her. She maybe wouldn't have been there, you know, like at that time, like that sliding doors thing. That's, I understand intellectually silly because maybe she'd be there in our late. I don't know, like, I don't know anything about what would have happened differently. But my point is we feel it strongly because her life has now changed forever. I think politics in Australia is now changed forever. So what's going to happen? We've got this election that you'll be, you know, you're launching the Friday pod politics in our Victoria. I'm using your cadence. Thank you. But this election is going to change. Ben Carroll has told us that, as an e like we looking. Yeah, the, the premier said this morning that they're going to look at how the election is raised. He's going to have a chat with the Victorian electoral commissioner. We actually had quite a few calls about a by-election. We had recently complaining about intimidation and harassment from one of the major parties. Again, difficult. to adjudicate with a talk back call, some real strong belief. No, no, it was this particular party intimidating and harassing people. Just to double back a bit to whether or not keeping the temperature down is the right message and whether or not we all feel powerless, just two things to relate. One is Ben Carroll's now the premier of Victoria. Something he said to me really, I spoke to him surprised me again, but it's worth noting if you feel a bit powerless in this news environment, he was talking about the post-fact information system where there's no consequences for what goes online platforms. He was telling me he's complained to meta and ex. He's complained to them, he gets the email back saying, no, no breach of our duties. Now this guy is the premier of a state of what seven million people can't get a response. So I think everybody feels, even the people who are supposedly have power, feel a little bit powerless, but you know, I was actually shopping on the weekend before all of this happened. I couldn't find the thing I needed on the supermarket shop. So sort of leaning in close, right? And I'm like, look for the third time. I have a sensory overload, cry, and lazy usually. Keep going. So I couldn't cry and leave. I said, no, no, I'll go and buy this thing. I will find it. Because you're a provider. That's right. This guy leans in and sort of surprises me and sort of, I just get this voice sort of close up to me. Are you ref hip-steam? And I'm like, yes, I am. Who are you? I'm Brad. How are you going, Brad? He said, how do you do it? The news is so overwhelming. I feel like I don't have any faith in homo sapiens anymore. And I was like, wow, Brad, but no, we've got to, you know, saying what you were saying. We've got to persist. We've got to keep trying. And then he said to me, do you think like you shift the dial with what I do on radio similar to what you do on TV and online and everything? And honestly, none of us have any idea, but you've got to try. You've got to try in the hope that you do shift the dial. I'll be really interested to see how our politicians respond to this. I do think it's really, it is significantly going to change the way a lot of our senior politicians move around. There's no doubt their security is going to get a lot jump here. I still, I was thinking, actually, this morning, I really seen your politician rang me in the middle of the federal election campaign saying, yo, you should see I'm walking down the street saying a lot to all these people, having a great time. I'm not sure some of our significant politicians are going to be able to do that as freely in the future. I am genuinely concerned about how it might change the tenor of this coming election here in Victoria. It's an election to watch anyway, because it's the first sort of even keel race in many ways between one nation and the coalition because Labor's been in power for so long in Victoria, just another little reminder, politics now. That's how you're supposed to say it, politics now, Victoria is launching in your feeds on Friday. I think this is another reason this is going to be an election to watch, and it really fingers crossed. Maybe it does stop the more, the more vertuptive comments. I've heard a few people, you mentioned Barnaby Joyce, I had Lydia Thorpe on saying, you know what? Maybe I could say things a little bit better, a little bit kinder. So who knows, it might, it might not be the great big reset, but it might take some of the rough edges off, and even if it's just that, I think that's a sign of progress. Yeah. So we're going to have a discussion, which is multifaceted. One will be about security arrangements, although I've had, you know, senior people in the government say, it's impossible to resource a full suite of, you know, security at that kind of complex level for every single politician, and then there's, of course, the subsequent debate of, do you want that? What does that mean for access? Yeah. So there's that. And then there will be one about the febrile environment, the kind of things people are saying online. And that's not just politicians going to say, this is the other thing about, we hold them to account because they get elected, and then we, but, but it's also citizens, and how they react. So if you're particularly angry about, insert the thing, climate change, immigration, the economy, and you're - Gas attack. Angry. We talk about grievance, right? The family court, the this, you know, the various things people are fired up about. This isn't not to, because I think sometimes people here, and they think, are you in the political class, you know, this sort of homogenization of everyone in it? The elites, you know, you didn't, no, no, no, you can feel lots of feelings about that, right? It's the expression of those tipping over into something that does damage to another human being. I mean, I know you're Jewish, I was raised in a very Christian way, I deeply think it's wrong to kill people and hurt people. No, no, but it's just like fundamental to my, to my core belief system is this. Not only is it just the rule of law, but I mean, even if it wasn't, it's wrong. So what has made some people, clearly not, lots of activists don't feel this way, but some people feel like it is okay to make threats. That is the thing we have to grapple with, okay, so you decrees the temperature by rethinking what you say. And I think it's fantastic that some of the MPs are already saying that, that's good. That doesn't solve it, though. That's not it. And then we do have to have a discussion, which we are having about the online environment, what people are saying, why they're getting angry. I mean, the big point I want to make is, are we able to stop it for others, which I know she would want? Maybe I sound utopian, but I hope we can. I don't know why would we put the white flag up and say we can't. Can I reframe that? I hope we can. I'm not sure we can, but you've got to try. Yes. I am not sure. In fact, I'm a little pessimistic about being able to change the tenor of our politics. And when you say people should be better online, of course, they should be. But there is no alternative. We all have to try. We all have to tell people we know and people we don't know on social media. You've got to do better. It's said, it is tried in lots of ways. It is a cliche in many ways. But there really is no alternative. Right? Democracy is a verb. It's a participation sport, 100% to steal from a great TV show. You know, hope is a verb. And if you don't give it a try, we're going to get nowhere. You don't even know where you're going to end up. But give it a try. And part of enjoying your festival of democracy is tuning into politics now every day on the feed. And also maybe on Fridays for politics in our Victoria. Maybe. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, there's nothing more real than a real election, and we're having one next month in Victoria, right? So if you want to see. We are less, we're a bit over four weeks from people being able to vote in Victoria. I was like, don't you start soon? I wish this whole episode had been on something, policy-ish and, you know, fun debate about how something works. You're creating an anti-market operator's system. Not that. Not the integrated systems plan? Not that. Not that. Not that. But something that is actually about the contest of ideas, not this, like really, it's bleak. It's been a really bleak 24 hours. And it's very hard to sort of get your head around it. But, you know, if I can say it, I know some of them listen. If anyone's listening in the world of Helen Haynes working for her family members, I know people do listen. For them, it's just they love her and they're like terrified about what's happening to her. So that's the most real. And then of course, all of the people, and I know you too, in my inbox saying, yeah, I am scared to be an MP or, as I said before on TV, because I really think about this, I've heard it from my own child. I don't know if I would want to go into politics. That's the thing. That's why it's worth trying. But that's why it's worth trying, because decisions get made by the people who turn up and we want the very best people to turn up and Helen Haynes is going to agree with it. And you don't want people to start selecting out because of fear of participation. You know, they might find another way, they think, I've heard people say this. Oh, I just wouldn't want to be an MP though, because we then losing the best of us. And the one thing we absolutely can agree on is she is the best of us. And so we do wish her the most, the best possible recovery from what is an extremely traumatic event. Well, that's it for politics now today. Thanks so much for joining me. Always good to talk to you, P.K. And of course, Friday, you launch politics now. Victoria! If you're listening in particularly in the seat of Indy, and I know I've had lots of texts from people in the seat of Indy, special shout out to people in Wangerada or Mansfield, various places that listen to us. Tomorrow, Claire Armstrong joins me. And if you have a question for us, please send it to the [email protected]. You, friend and I, will make a special episode. Soonish. Of course, Raf will be in the feed on Fridays. See you, Raf. See you later, P.K.