Has Office Etiquette Disappeared — or Just Changed? (Part 2: David)

For many people entering the workforce today, the office has never really been one thing. It's been remote, then hybrid, then open. Meetings happen on video, even when people are in the same building. Conversation happens in chats, as much as in person. In the language of work has shifted to. Be respectful, be inclusive, be authentic, create psychological safety. Those aren't just ideas, they're expectations, but here's the question. In a workplace that encourages openness, why does so many people still feel like they need to filter what they say? In the first part of this conversation, we heard from Tozen, someone who has seen the workplace change over time. This episode was shipped in perspective. What if this version of work, open offices, hybrid schedule, constant virtual meetings, isn't a change, but simply the basically? Welcome to popularly unpopular. The podcast where we explore opinions that diverge from the norm, thoughtfully, respectfully, and without shouting at the algorithm. I'm Anna Oliwar, and today's unpopular opinion is this. The modern workplace is focused on being collaborative, but is lost as basic sense of consideration. Today, I'm joined by David Kayafa, a young professional that joined the workplace during a time that shaped the way that we do work. It's a great tool, digital communications, and a strong emphasis on respect, inclusivity, and psychological safety. His experience raises a question, a very different kind of question. Not what's changed, but how this new version of work is shaped in our expectations. Welcome to the show, David. Excited to be here. Thank you, Anna. I'm glad that you made the time to talk to me, because this is turning to a two-part episode, and I'm trying to get to different perspectives here. I spoke with Tosin, a colleague of ours, about her experience during this change. We have seen a lot of change, her and I, but you, I introduce you as a young professional, you have known only this new norm. I want to start with that. I want you to start telling us when you join the workforce and how has that experience been for you? What's your impression of the workplace? Eard. And it's a good word, weird. It was bizarrely weird, because when I joined the company, it was two years before I met anyone in person. So my experience of meeting everyone for the first time, I had already worked every two weeks. So I'm just saying hello to people like I don't know who they are. And because like meetings and stuff, people would see my face on camera, so people knew me, but I did not recognize anybody. People would come over to me, "David, how are you?" I'm like, "Who are you?" It was very weird, very weird experience. But it was also strange because like the company dynamics too, and got the sense, you know, older school company, that kind of culture, does not necessarily fit with 100% remorse. And also because the operational nature of the company and not really getting to experience any of that. And I still feel the effects because now with my experience, we have people from across the company coming to us with use cases, and often they're very operational in nature. So it's tricky for me to understand that because when I first was brought onto the company, I didn't get, you know, washed with that. I really just experienced my own world. And luckily, you know, I worked for people that took the time to explain some things to me, so I don't feel completely in the dark. But it's difficult because there's a lot of gaps in my understanding from that. Not like a disadvantage, but like I feel like I have to do a little bit more homework, because there are certain things that I just don't know or don't understand. I guess to give everyone some context. So you joined the workforce during the pandemic. You were 100% remote for two years. Yeah. And then you came back to a high-ridden work model where you were starting to meet people for the first time. And I kind of feel that experience because I was also new to the group where we worked. And when we came back, I had seen people's pictures and maybe you write maybe the cameras, but then you meet people face to face for the first time. And you're like, whoa, I somehow did not know that was you. It was harder to recognize people in person. I had no ability at all to recognize people. Maybe that's a me thing too partially, but I was so confused when people would come up to make. Sometimes, you know, the pictures for people are pictures from when they joined the company 10, 15, 20 years ago. So I'm looking at somebody, you know, who could look very, very, very different than what the picture promotes. And also pictures is kind of like a headshot, like neck up, which gives you no context on how somebody looks at all. So yeah, it's just it was not easy to identify people. For sure. And I really like what you said about that you didn't get a chance to get hands on experience to some of the operational needs of the company. You came into the workforce at a time where we were forced to be remote. And for a company that is very hands on and very operationally driven. And obviously, there's a lot of companies that are like that that are very operationally driven. And so we had a let's call it a disadvantage that you were now physically present during those first two years of your career to help you navigate and understand the actual business. And you're saying that now you have to do a little bit more homework to understand them. Tell me a little bit more about that. How does that feel for you as now a five or six year professional? You've been working for six years now. And how does that feel for you? Do you still feel like you're playing catch up or do you starting to feel like, okay, get it now starting to feel like I get it now, but with certain things. So the MBA right getting that was extremely helpful because it gave me a broad understanding of the business. If you come at it from an abstracted perspective, there are certain elements I understand like in terms of financial planning, asset depreciation, those items that when they're presented on, I even understanding and I can piece together from that. So for example, like assets, right, with the initiatives that are ongoing, there was conversation about appreciating the assets. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Why they're doing that? Because that shows us savings on balance sheets. Like, you know, it's the effective financial planning and which shows the company's direction and the company's priority. But it also allows for more like financial reallocation of funding to say, hey, we want to make improvements in these areas and these assets are depreciating quickly. We need to go ahead and allocate funding to make those improvements. So arguments like that I see very clearly and I think a lot of that is a combination of just the people that I work with did take the time to explain things to me. So from that perspective, I do have understanding where I feel the effects of it is for example, some group I'm working with. They have use cases to analyze tickets from from a system. I have no idea what that system is. I can quite understand what the tickets are and as a result of that, I find myself having to do a lot of back home work before I meet with them because in order to give advice and perspective, I need to have somewhat of an understanding. Something I was taught very earlier on, which I'm grateful for, is there's not really an excuse for being ill informed. You have the internet at your fingertips. You have all this information and now there's even AI, right? And with AI, you could just be like, give me information on this and it'll give it to you. So there's no excuse anymore to go into something ill informed. So I find myself taking the time to go and do that. But I think certain items would make more sense to me if I was in person and I did get to have conversations with these different groups of people. Like let's say within my first year or so with the company, the norm is, oh yeah, go, take it to work, do this, do that. I didn't get that experience and I think if I did, certain things would make a lot more sense to me and I wouldn't have to do all that background research and it wouldn't be difficult to wrap my head around what's going on. And I have the conversational skills to say, okay, wait, tell me more about that. Help me understand. I have the research skills to go and dive into a topic. I can do that. So I wouldn't say I feel deficient, but at the same time, I think I wouldn't have to do that much if I had an understanding right off the bat. Now that we're back into the office, we're in a somewhat of a hybrid model. So you do get to spend some time in person and you get to spend some time remote. Does that feel collaborative and are learning and doing things or does it feel like it's more distracted and you're just overwhelmed because we're still doing back-to-back meetings on teams and you still don't get to talk to people or go take that tour of that facility or take the time to walk and talk to somebody. Which is it? Do you get to collaborate more or is it still distracted and chaotic? Both. Okay. The answer is both. It's something I see very frequently in the office. I'll give you this specific situation because I had to stop and comment on it. This is the level of, to me, insanity of what I witnessed. So it's a team that I work with and their desks are all within a cluster around each other and old school office set up. So it's not like tiny desks. It's bigger desks. It's still open office, right? Open floor. No cubes. Yes. So they're within the same cluster of desks. talking to each other on a team's call. They all have their headphones on. They're on a team's call, but they're within, you know, 10 feet of each other. And you know, I had a stop. And it was like, are you guys kidding me? What are you doing? The whole point of us being here is to not do what you're doing. And when did they stop? Did they and the call and sat at a table or went to a conference room? What happened? They said they preferred doing it that way. I'm like, what in. I don't even know what to consider that. But I see things like that all the time. And the other thing that will continuously happen is all of people ping me when they're sitting 20 feet from me. So what I do is I lock my computer, I walk over, and I'm like, hey, let's just talk this out because I am not pinging you when we're in the same room as each other. I feel a sense of pride because I taught you well. How many times did I say to you, if it's more than two pangs, don't ping me, come over. Paul, me, we're not doing this, right? Well, and that's a lot of where I got it from. Those foundational lessons. And it's the same thing with the meetings. One thing that I thought you did very well is that whenever we were in person, we really maximized the in person time. I did not feel like being in person was a waste when we were on the team together. I'd sometimes now, I feel like being in person is a waste because of the way it's handled. You were you were very much like, let's come in the same days, let's set meetings, let's book these conference rooms, let's sit together. You know, let's hang out when we're in the office. And that was very intentional. And I thought you did a very good job of setting that up. Thank you. But not everyone does what you do. Not everyone operates that way. It's very interesting that you say that because the conversation I had with Tosin, we talked about how her and I and the folks that are our age and that are I guess rank for lack of a better war, middle management, that we have a responsibility to set up guardrails and boundaries to make this work. Because if we don't, it's going to continue to be this chaotic. Here and from you makes me feel like I have a responsibility as a manager to make sure that my team is finding value and being in person that my team can feel that collaboration and not just the chaos. Yeah, so I think that is important and I do think it's ultimately the managers who set that culture. I also think that there is there are a lot of people who resent having to come in. So I get it, but at the same time, we're here. Let's make something of the time. We have together. Because I think that time is important. I think there's a thing of effectiveness. When we've had meetings where we've all sat together around the table and just went, okay, ABCD, these are priorities, EFG or not. Let's go and execute. Let's talk about these things. Let's have these conversations. Those meetings are more effective than the virtual ones. Even video, I think it's like 90-something percent of communication is non-verbal. And video, you get some of it. It's better than camera off. But there's another element of in-person that is different and allows for enhanced collaborations. Like I built out an agent for someone in the company and I needed to configure the agent for them. And I said to them, I'm like, if we do this remotely and I'm trying verbally explain to you how to set all this up, it's going to take forever. I get it's asking a lot, but you could come and you know, we could just sit in a room together and do this. I think it's going to be a lot more fruitful of a session. And they were fine with it. They were happy with it. I think there's a lot of value, too, in-person dynamics. And I think it's important when you do this whole fake hybrid kind of thing where you're doing so much. I call it fake hybrid because I don't think you're really in the office. If you're on team's meetings in the office, that's my opinion. But yeah, I think it's like a fake hybrid. I'm going to coin that. I actually like it. I think that that is a very valuable opinion. And I like it. Fake hybrid. You're in the office, but you're still remote. And the other thing I'll say, though, is I don't think all of it falls on the people. And what I mean by that is I also think there are layout issues. Where I sit in the office is nowhere near the rest of the team. But what I do when I come in is I find an empty desk near where everyone else is. And I just sit there because that's what allows for that collaboration, right? You need to be close. Like I want someone to be able to come over to me and be like, Hey, David, you know, what's going on with ABC or D? And you know, if I make them walk halfway around the floor, that's less likely. So I'm like, let me sit near everyone. But if I were to officially try to have my seat moved, there are at seats. I do think that that's something that everyone is experiencing. We're experiencing the fact that, you know, in order to have collaboration proximity definitely helps. And there are certain expectations of this whole in person. There are some expectations. But I think that there's some blurb boundaries also, which to use your term fade hybrid. We go into conference rooms. Sometimes you do have in person meetings and you go into conference rooms. But then everyone has their laptop open or everybody has a digital device or on their phones. Like nobody really is entirely present. Or I have noticed that. Have you noticed that also like you are the product of a generation that hasn't known anything but laptops and smartphones? How does that make you feel? Is it really collaborative when everybody has their laptops up? Would it make more sense if we didn't? Yes. Do you think we're better off trying to make those boundaries come back? And I put in that responsibility a little bit on me as the manager to say, Hey, everybody put the laptops away. I really put their phones away. Let's be present and mindful and really collaborate at this meeting. Do you feel more comfortable to just have the computer up because you want to take notes on your computer? Because I hear that a lot from my younger employees is that they like to take notes on their computer. So they're not going to put their computers away. And at first I want to ask a question back at you. Was it any different? So before I joined the company, I was in this like fellowship with city government for a year. And I was there right before the pandemic. And the environment was everyone was in person five days a week. But I remember being in meetings with people and the computer thing was an issue. Like everyone was on their computers, pinging, emailing, doing whatever. And that was the culture even though we were all sitting in a room together. So I guess what my question is, is that issue? That's not new. The computer issue was not a new issue. It is actually for the company we work for. It is. It's interestingly that you say that because in Tozen and I talked about this, we didn't have laptops. Some people had laptops, but most of us had desktops. The computer stayed at work. And I didn't get a smartphone until maybe 2017 maybe I had a flip phone. I didn't have a smartphone. Smartphones were only for executives for a good chunk of my career. I had a flip phone in no laptops. So when I went to a meeting, I had a notebook. Well, that's crazy. Okay. I didn't know that. So that's good context. Well, you still do because when we're in meetings together, you always have either the remarkable now or a notebook. Yeah, but that's just me and an important part of it has to do with who I am and my generation to some extent. I do better by taking notes by hand and it helps me retain information and it helps me be present. If I bring the computer, I'm not listening to you. That's what's going to happen. And I know that about myself. If I open up my laptop, just know that I'm very likely not listening to you. I also can't take notes on a computer. I need to take notes by hand. But I also understand the differences. You do have some employees that are faster typers than they are writing. So they prefer the computer. But I also feel like it's a distraction. So that's my question to you. Do you think we're better off with the computers or without them or how do we set boundaries? It's a great question. So I go back and forth on this and I personally find it immensely difficult to listen and take notes in a meeting. I don't know why, but I find it immensely difficult. I cannot lead a meeting and take notes. So if I'm actively participating, communicating, etc. Then I wouldn't want anything with me. I just want to sit and listen. And this even goes for writing handwriting notes too. I like practicing three-way communication. I like ensuring that I'm understanding someone. I like paraphrasing. I like doing all of these practices. So if I'm trying to take notes and do that at the same time, I'm not really able to do that. But if I'm just asked to go to a meeting to take notes and record what's going on, I would want my computer. But if I'm asked to actively participate and understand what's going on, then I would want to go in with nothing. It would depend. So do we think that this is now going to become a situation that you have to know yourself well enough to know that if we're going to be in a collaborative type of meeting, that you're bringing your laptop with the understanding that is going to be used for the purposes of the meeting, not so that you can multitask or that you are going to come present with just a notebook and a pen to be able to be present and participate. You speak about personal accountability, right? The way I look at it is everyone in the workplace is an adult who's getting paid to be there and do something. We all act like we're adults because we're totally. No, no, no, we don't. We really don't. But the but to me that's the standard. And as I've gotten into the position of where I met each people, that's the standard that I hold the people I manage. I'm like, "Look, you're an adult." You know what you do and how you operate and the quality of work you deliver and your time in the office, I am not here to babysit you because we're both adults. You're getting paid, you're paid to be or you're paid to do what you have to do. And that's the way I looked at it. I think people need to hold themselves accountable. And I think the lack of ability to do that is a bigger problem. - So on that same vein, let's pivot slightly from the collaborative to something that's a little bit more personal 'cause I would also love to cure your thoughts on this, which is the way that you present yourself at work. - I have seen that shift and we talk too toasted about this as well. I've seen the shift of the work attire from much more stringent and rigid, you know, wearing slacks and shirts and suits and things to a much more comfortable and casual wear. And I'm more for comfort. I do think that comfortable clothes and comfortable shoes, yay for that. But you also know me and you've met me and you know that I am also kind of a fashionista. So I like to dress nice to some extent. - Yes. - But I just, I'm curious what you think is the right formula because things are gonna change regardless. Change is inevitable. But what is the right formula and does that affect the way we do it? - I do think it does and I think certain things are unprofessional. Like the way I'm dressed now, if I'm working from home, I'll take a call like this. You know, if I'm working from home and it's I'm not presenting, it's a meeting, I will take a call looking like this. - And just for our audience who can't see you, we're in a t-shirt and a hat. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'll dress like this if it's a team's call. I personally think and I get pushback on this too, sometimes from people. I always like to have my camera on in a meeting. I think it's important. I think that you should, as part of being work is being camera ready. If you're remote and I think maybe sometimes for like a five minute conversation you don't need to. But if you're in a meeting, I think it's important of your camera on. So that's one thing. When you're in the office, I think it depends person to person. Like I notice yourself, you always dress very nicely, but you style yourself. So you have your own way of dressing and it's always professional for someone like myself. I'm not really very stylish, but you know, button down shirt slacks belt. And I think for other people, you know, they're stylish and sweaters and you know, these kind of things. You can use these to accentuate your dress and your dress style. But I don't think it's appropriate to go into the office in like a t-shirt and jeans. I think a button down in jeans is fine, but I'll see people go around the office and a sweatshirt. And I'm like, "Ahhh." Like a hoodie? - Yeah, I've seen it. Do you think that this is a generational thing? Or do you think that this is a byproduct of that hybrid or remote work that somehow we have carried back into the workplace now that we're returned? - I think it's generational. And I noticed this particularly people my age and younger. So people entered the workforce at a similar time to myself and people who entered later. I graduated college in 2019. So I was the last year to not be affected by COVID. So if you graduated a year later than me, you spent your senior year of college, hybrid. If you graduated two years later than me, sophomore junior senior, your college, hybrid. So I think that amongst that generation, I think they're overall social and communication differences, the way they operate because of their experience. I think it's changed fundamentally their approach to everything. There's a fundamental shift and people that are right around where I'm at, I think it differs and it varies. I don't see consistency. - So this brings me to another topic. Again, I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Is should we say something? And it's not the topic of inclusivity, respect, psychological safety, all important things. And that's it in here saying that I don't think those things matter because they do, they absolutely do matter. - Well, they 100% do. - And from someone who's seen kind of both sides of the coin, I do think that this is probably better than things were before, but I am not sure that I would approach one of my employees and say what you're wearing is inappropriate. What do you think about that? - First of all, I agree with you that I don't know if I would either. I also think the bright product of today and I don't think it's fully corporate. I also think where in this age of cancel culture. So the idea being that if you say something or you do something, there's kind of a rush to judgment, rather than kind of like, okay, let's understand what someone's saying before we kind of come at this situation. And I think that it can be aggressive and there can be reputational damages. - Condination. - Yeah. And I see that at the workplace and I see the effects of that at the workplace. And I think rather than talk about it, let's have these conversations, let's bridge these divides. I think everyone is so scared to offend though sooners sit back and not say anything, regardless if they agree with something or not. And then I also think the other challenge is now when a manager shows there are certain times where I think something is right, but my thoughts do not align with policy. And in that situation, I have to carry the company line, right? But I don't necessarily agree with what I'm saying. And that is very difficult. - I think I would like to impact that a little bit because I think that those are two very different things. So there's one thing about what you just talked about, which is cancel culture and I would agree with you. I think that there's something that's happening in society as a whole that is obviously influencing the way that we work in general. And that brings us to this conversations on respected inclusivity and psychological safety, that are happening in society and then infiltrating work, which again, good things, but then that creates an uncomfortable level of how do we navigate these things, right? But then there's the other piece you just said where you think I'm right about this, but that's not the direction I'm given. And so therefore I have to kind of go with that. And I think that that's very different, right? That's different from being afraid to say something because I don't want to get my reputation ruined or be judgeable, condemned. But it's a sandwich. You know, it's the way I view it as it's both sides. And I'll give some examples without going into anything to specific from like an accommodation perspective, right? Let's say that someone's going through something and they need something. And to me, it's reasonable. But from a corporate view, there are policies and things around this to be followed. - I understand. So what you're saying is that there are times in which we say that we want to embrace these values of inclusivity and respect and flexibility, but we don't always execute those values. We say that we don't always execute them. - Yes, exactly. And then on the other side of that, I think there's this fear of talking about things in a certain way because you don't want to offend or you don't want to put yourself in that position. So I think it's these two forces that are juxtaposed against each other that at least I feel I'm caught between me sometimes. - I would agree with you. I don't think that doesn't unusual feel in. I don't think you're the only person who feels that way. I definitely think he probably resonates with a lot more people than we probably know. And I'm curious to hear what you think is the difference between respect and silence. What's the difference between being respectful and therefore I'm going to keep my comments to myself because they have no bearing or just being silent because I just don't want to put myself in that position. - You know, this is why this is a challenge. That's difficult. I think the reality is that sometimes you need to allow people the opportunity to explain themselves. And I think that we societally attach moral values to certain things. If you're of this belief, this makes you bad, this makes you other, this makes you enemy versus if you're of this belief, you're good. I think that's kind of how people interpret things. And I think that is not workplace, but that's societal. And I think it creeps its way into the workplace. If you feel or you think someone might feel differently from you, you may be scared to express a certain opinion or a certain thought. So you're now in this incredible crosshair. And I think things are going to evolve more and more of that way where we're going to need to learn how to navigate these conversations. And this kind of hands off approach isn't going to work. - You touched on a couple of things about people's beliefs and people's views and there's some biases in there. And one of the things I've always found extremely challenging living in New York and working in a place that is so diverse is exactly that. It's a diversity of people, but I also find it very rewarding because I get to learn from the people from different people. - Learn some. - Right, so you can need to approach certain things with the level of curiosity rather than judgment because that definitely helps bring those gaps. But my question to you is, there's another topic that has made its way into the workforce, which is authenticity, bringing new authentic self-confidence. Yes. And I'm curious as to what you think about that, because that is a little bit in conflict with what you just said, right? So if I am of certain background or belief or religion or something, and I bring my authentic self to work, does that create judgment on someone else who might have a bias in my view me as the other? Even in places like New York that are so diverse, what will used to people be indifferent? I'm curious because I'm sure that there are parts of the world or even parts of the country where that's more of a shock to see someone who is different. And how do we bring our authentic self to work without being judged? Yeah, I think that's difficult. Of course, there are different generations in the company. This is something else that I have not experienced, but I've heard stories from people of what the company was like. You've made people who are maybe asking questions out of a place of curiosity, but they may come across a certain way, even if they don't intend to. And I think that's kind of where the difficulty resides. I think we place moral value on not being biased. And I think the reality that we all have to embrace is that by virtue of being human, we're biased. And I think rather than putting moral value on that, I think the moral value should be on learning, challenging your assumptions, and embracing difference. Can you navigate a difficult conversation with someone who has different perspectives, different beliefs than you? Right now, the modus operandibe society is we're kind of digging in on our heels and wanting to be around on others who are like ourselves and represent our beliefs. But I think the reality is we as people need to better at communicating across difference. We're going to slip up, we're going to make mistakes. And we need to learn how to navigate that and have conversations about that versus holding judgment. Yeah, definitely. I think that you're right. We are inherently biased. And I don't think that there is necessarily something wrong with that. Our brains are meant to make judgment calls very quickly. We're designed not to be able to say, "Right, as whether or not we're self-aware." To be able to say, "That was probably not the right thing to say." And maybe acknowledge it and apologize. And maybe not even apologize, just to acknowledge it and say, "Hey, that came across kind of wrong. Let me start over. I am very curious to learn about X." Or I'm very curious about what you just said. And I'm sorry that they came across as a certain way. And that was not my intent. Because you write, "Intent is," isn't there a saying that's like intent to stoop to thirds of the law or something like that? Yeah. But intent and impact can be very, very. And I've seen this play out in real time, multiple times where the intent of something I communicated or said was taken very differently. And sometimes there are certain learnings I've taken away from how I've said something how I could have communicated better. Other times, I feel like that could have been or should have been more of a dialogue than jumping to assumption about something that was said or communicated. So I think it's a bit of both. And I think that we as people just need to be better. But I think just the way that we're operating now is just from a place of fear, rather than from a place of trying to be understanding. And you know, David, I really appreciate you saying that. Because if you recall my conversation with Jessica, she mentioned about how fearful the younger generation is and how fearful she is for them. And I appreciate you saying that because it's very candid. And I do think that you're right. I think that many of us are operating under state of fear. And fear never makes good decisions. Never. So I want to kind of end this piece of the conversation by saying, thank you for being so candid because I do think it's a very difficult conversation to have. Extremely. And especially for those of us who are older, you and I have talked about our age differences in our time in the company. Right? You've been in the company six years. And I'm going to 20 years in the company. And I do think that because of those changes and those differences, we see the world very different. And I appreciate that you being candid about it. Because sometimes I think that I'm the outlier. That I must be the wrong one when I feel this way. And the younger generation is super comfortable with all of these things. So I appreciate that you're given us that perspective. I've had tense conversations about this recently with people. And ultimately it came to a good end, but it got tense. And I think that's okay. You can't be scared for things to get tense. That's reality. You know, we're human. Humans don't get conflict. That's the, that's it. We don't like conflicts. We don't avoid it. But a conflict is necessary. So yeah, you're absolutely right about that. So to wrap up the conversation, I would like to hear from you about if you could redo the way we work. If you were king for the king for the king for the king for the king, David, what do you think would be the right balance? Coming from someone who again has known mostly this weird work set up. And unfortunately, unfortunately, didn't get to live the old times. And so you don't have the nostalgia that I have. What do you think would be the right makeup? What is the best balance? And whose responsibility is it? Because I am also curious as to who you think needs to be responsible for making a positive change or a change period so that we can all be more productive, more collaborative, and less overwhelmed. So the social conversation that we were just having, I think that's society. I think that goes way beyond the workplace. And I think those are things that will get better over time. To, I think, what we can do is putting more of a focus, not on saying the right thing or political correctness. One of the favorite courses I've taken in my MBA is I took this difficult conversations course. And one thing I got from that is the importance of three-way communication. Essentially, this entire course was on three-way communication. And the idea of when things get tense, we make assumptions, we run, we attack, or we retreat and we stonewall, right? But that's the time where you need to ask questions to understand someone else's perspective. Because the reality is you're making a lot of assumptions. When you're upset, put the onus on another person. You don't let them explain themselves and their opinion. Put the ball in their court. You know, let them feel some questions. Navigate that that way. But I think putting the onus more so on how do we navigate conflict versus expecting people to always say and do the right thing? Because the reality is we're human and we're going to make mistakes. And also kind of being open to specificity. Because I think the way people get around things right now. And I see myself do it all the time. They be vague, put things in a vague perspective. You know, make kind of veiled comments. But I think encouraging more open communication, open dialogue, even though it may make things kind of worse in the short term. I think it ultimately will allow for more growth. I think a lot of the problem that we deal with today is everything's veiled. From a corporate perspective, I don't think hybrid's a bad thing. You know, I think saying rules is kind of a difficult thing. You know, I think for someone in my shoes, you know, I don't have any kids. I live in the city. I live fairly close. So all of these things, there was no excuse for me not to be in the office at minimum three days a week. But I think there are other people with different circumstances, people with families, people who may live farther away. You know, those kind of things. I think they can have some accommodations granted. I don't think that's wrong or ridiculous. But the other thing is I think the time that we're in the office needs to be used correctly. And there are challenges around this. And I think part of this is the office design. And the office design needs to be restructured to accommodate this new workplace. So people can book conference rooms and book these collaborative spaces. And people can sit together. And I think that's a model shift that ultimately I think the company has to drive. And I think then it's on the managers and the leaders to set the vision of the expectation is be here on the same days, get a conference room, collaborate, push that kind of effectiveness. Intentionality. Yes. And I think those are the shifts that I would want to implement as a leader. And I also think more more leeway with certain things. I may need to take care of things for a variety of different reasons. But under the current policy, I would have to take my own vacation time to do that. I don't think that's right. And I think that kind of flexibility is important. And that kind of flexibility should be accounted for and should not be so difficult and process oriented to get someone. So I like it. I hear you saying let's be more specific and not so high level and let's not be afraid of the difficult conversations. We may in fact need to have those conversations. I'm hearing you say when we are in the office, let's try to have more intentionality. And let's try to be present and actually collaborate. And that change needs to happen both on physical spaces. We may need to restructure the way that we sit together so that we can be more collaborative and also on the leadership perspective that we need to drive that change. And lastly, I hear I'm hearing you say flexibility is important. That it's something that we gain from the pandemic. That is a good thing. But it shouldn't be restrictive. It should be on a case-to-case basis that we need to be more open-minded and more understand and of what flexibility means for each and every one of us. That's the way I look at it. And then the other thing I'd like to add is I also think there's an over-emphasis on meetings. There are days where I am dead-bucked in meetings between 9 and 5. Like literally I have no break. Like between 9 and 5 I am just going straight. And The way I look at that is what value am I bringing when I am locked in meetings the entire time that I'm at work. The answer is I'm bringing no value. When how many of those conversations are needed or effective, we as leaders need to take a look who's needed in each conversation. Can something be an email versus a meeting? Can something be handled by walking over to someone and saying, "Hey, let's talk about this for five minutes versus a meeting?" Thank you, Cindy. Toaston had the same comments. Very interesting from two different perspectives. Do I really need to be part of this meeting? When do I do my work if I'm just sitting in meetings all day? So Toaston had a very similar perspective. Yeah. And I'm not surprised because we're facing many of the same issues, different positions, different roles, different levels, right? But we're facing the same issues. It's not an effective way to work. I find that my coin is not an effective way to work. I like that. Well, thank you, David. And I now have the last question to ask you. This is the fun question of the episode. What is a popularly unpopular opinion that you may have? An opinion that you have that may raise some eyebrows. So here's one that I've been giving a lot of thought to. I think we are now in an age. You know, everything is IT centric. I don't know how to code, right? I've been building agents. It's something that you rewind the clock, even 10 years ago, you didn't have the tools where someone like myself without that background and experience would be able to do something like that. And I think the operating model that companies have as a result of that needs to shift. And I think that shift is very, very difficult and a lot of places are having difficulty embracing that shift. I think the reality is IT is going to become more decentralized and there needs to be thought put into how do you give people the ability to do things safely and securely? And how do you set up the pathways for people to be innovative versus kind of creating road block based processes? And I think that's a difficult position. A lot of companies are in now and are navigating. That's a fair point. I think what you're going to see is a shift in the way roles present themselves and are allocated. And I think IT departments are going to have to meet this need in like a security focused company. You don't want people being able to vibe code out solutions that could pose risks, right? Companies are going to need to create pathways for people to do things safely and securely and ensure that the processes make them production, production ready. Thank you for sharing that opinion. I appreciate it. And thank you so much for joining me today, David. This was a very wonderful conversation. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Yeah, thank you. All of this has been floating around my mind recently. Navigating this kind of new normal. It's been on my mind a lot just as we navigate this period. Well, thank you for being so candid. Thanks everyone for listening to Popularly and Popular. Remember that sometimes the most interesting opinions are the ones we hesitate to say out loud. And if you have what feels like an unpopular opinion, send it in. It might become a future episode. [Music]