Harvard Business School Professor: How to Become More Confident, Influential, and Communicate Better

Hey, it's your friend Mal, and welcome to the Mal Robbins podcast. Let me ask you a question. How many times today? Did you stop yourself from saying something? I get it, maybe it fell awkward or unnecessary, or that if you said something, it might make things weird. So instead, you were like, "Oh, I'm fine." You kept it light. You swallowed the comment. You hid the truth, and you let it go. You probably told yourself, "Ah, that's maturity. That's emotional intelligence." That's having solid boundaries, not saying anything. But what if you're just terrified of oversharing? You obsess over saying too much. You replay conversations because you're worried that you said the wrong thing or you crossed a line or people are going to judge you. Most of us think the danger is in oversharing. You know, saying too much, crossing a line, being too vulnerable. But today's guest, a Harvard Business School Professor who's a behavioral scientist and studies decision-making, says, "That's the wrong fear. What you should be afraid of is the real damage that comes from undersharing, being closed off, not opening up about what's going on in your life. This episode is not about sharing everything with everyone. This episode is about the skill of being open, being vulnerable, and learning how to be honest about what's going on. Because if you really apply what you're about to learn today, your relationships will be closer. Your conversations are going to get easier. You'll feel happier because of these tips from the number one professor at Harvard Business School. Before we jump in, I want to invite you to stick around for a special segment later in the episode sponsored by Expedia. Because I'm going to be sharing something that might make you a happier person starting today. [MUSIC] Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. If you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you. I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. Today we're talking about research that will change your life and your career from the number one professor on decision making at Harvard Business School. Today's guest is a leading authority on how people decide what to reveal, what to withhold, and how those decisions shape trust, relationships, success, and happiness. I'm talking about Dr. Leslie Kay John. She is a Harvard Business School professor, the James E. Burke professor of Business Administration and a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, self-disclosure, trust, privacy, regret, and decision making. Her research has been published in the most respected scientific journals in the world. She is the author of the best-selling book, "Revealing, the underrated power of oversharing," which completely changed how I think about silence, vulnerability, and the things we don't say. So without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Leslie John to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited to dig into everything that you're about to teach us, your research. And where I want to start is how selfishly, how could my life be different? If I take to heart everything that you are teaching at Harvard Business School, the lessons, the takeaway, the research, and I really apply it to my life. How is my life going to change? So number one is the realization that revealing wisely is a skill. It's not something we're born good or bad at. It is a skill. And you can do some really practical things, which we're going to talk about to do it really wisely. And if you do it wisely, it's going to transform your relationships. It's going to change how you show up at work. It's going to help you thrive at work. It's going to make you more influential. And it's even going to shape and improve your well-being, your day-to-day happiness. Just by being more open? Yes. You're going to notice that your EQ, your emotional intelligence, is going to increase. You're going to have much better self-awareness and understanding. And you're having a much better understanding of others. As a result, you'll be much better able to identify and process your emotions. You will feel, therefore, less stress. You will ruminate less. You will, you know, that post-conversational replay that got wrenching, "Oh my God, what did I do?" That's going to dial way down because part of opening up is saying hard things. You're going to learn to be more assertive, which will help you with boundaries. Beyond, and you'll feel more, it's not just the absence of negative stuff or the mitigating of it. You're going to feel more joy. You're going to be happier, I sure am. And if this curmudgeonly academic feels that way, you'll also find benefits in your workplace, in your career. So it's interesting because the tools there are kind of counterintuitive. The things that you do to say gain more influence. So I'm excited to talk about that. So let's go. You know, Dr. John, I'm sitting here thinking, if you're standing before a class at Harvard Business School, you got to have a bunch of really type A people in there who want to go into eye banking, or be the next billionaire, or build something meaningful, hard working, hard driving. They end up in front of you and you're like, "Hey, let's talk about the power of oversharing." I know. How do you sell the benefit of being more open and what you call oversharing to somebody who is just in your class to get ahead? Yes. What is the real benefit of that? Yes. Great question. The way I start is by speaking their language. So I teach a lot of executives and some of them rightly so. Well, I'm a skeptical person. They're like, "What is this?" And especially sometimes when it comes to feelings and emotions, what is this? And so what I do is I start by showing them in business contexts, how this, first of all, this is crass, maybe. I am a business school professor. How it helps them make money. And then I show -- Wait, so if you share more, you make more money? So the example I give there, I know, what? As a company, so when we share more, when we open up, when we reveal slightly sensitive things, it causes whoever we're revealing to to trust us more. And the same is true in companies. When companies reveal more, it causes their -- And I don't use the word "cause" lightly, right? These are randomized experiments. It causes their customers to trust them more and to buy more. So we've done studies with -- like the largest bank in Australia, for example, where with my colleague Ryan Buell, where somehow we convinced them to on their credit card website. So when you're going and looking for a credit card on their bank, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, what we convinced them to do is half of the time to reveal reasons why you might not want the credit card. So like pay attention, the fees are really high or the points aren't great or whatever, the high interest rate, like drawing attention, basically saying, "Don't buy this." That's a form of sensitive disclosure, right? And what did that do? It actually -- it did not scare people away. It didn't decrease customer acquisition, and it increased retention. The experiment alone made the bank millions of dollars, and then they rolled it out, and then their competitors copied them. So that's kind of -- I start in the like money realm. And then they're like, "Oh, okay." And then I go into leadership, and there I go into how when you're a leader revealing a little bit more than you think you should. And I take them through. I first get them to craft a little self-introduction. I say, "Imagine you're about to introduce yourself to a group of new hires. What would you say about yourself?" And then I say, "Rays your hand if you had any negative traits in that." Crickets. And then I said, "We did a study with actual managers where we randomize them to either do what you did and not share weaknesses or some of them planted it, but if you weaknesses in." And then we asked the employees who they want to work for. The person that has the weaknesses, they don't think the employer is incompetent. They just trust them more and they want to work for them. Well, I find this so fascinating because you hear the word "oversharing" and you think about those moments where something fell out of your mouth and then you regret it completely. And the research that you've been doing is so groundbreaking. What actually led you to go, "Oh, wait a minute." "Oversharing and revealing things that you may be hiding or may be scared to say really matters." Like, what was that moment you're like, "I'm looking at this wrong." For me, the study that changed everything was a simple thought experiment, I ran, where we could actually ask listeners to think through this little thought experiment. So imagine you are deciding between two possible dates, two possible suitors, and you talk to one of them and you ask them, "Have you ever had any sexually transmitted diseases?" STDs. Now, I know that that's kind of forward. Hardware business goal professor says, "No, yes, that's super forward." Obviously, we're not going to open with that one. I'm boiling it down to you because you're busy people. Okay, so you ask the person this and they say, actually, yeah, I've had a lot of SDDs. Okay, so then you ask the other person, same question and they say, I don't want to answer that question. I'm not answering it. Refused to answer. And so we asked, we put thousands of people in this quandary. Now, neither of these is exactly as my father would say a fine specimen. So you push them to shove. You want someone who's more responsible or who answers your questions. But if you had to choose, if you had to choose who would you pick and again and again, we found people prefer the revealer. The person who says the thing, even if it's a terrible thing relative to someone who hides who saliently withholds, we've found this in dating context. So here it's about 65% of people. So not 100% of people, but the majority, the significant majority prefer this devil they know. And other studies we found, like in another study we asked people who they'd rather hire. Would you rather hire someone who on the job application answered the question, what are your worst grades and admitted that they'd failed versus the someone who opted out, something like 89% of people choose the person who admits to the bad thing. And this just was astounding to us. So we did more studies and what we realized was that the reason that people really didn't want to go for the hider was because they distrusted them because at least the person who revealed, at least they revealed in their trustworthy. And now why does, then the question is, every question you answer in research is why I love my job is another question. Now they're like, well, why is that person trustworthy? And what we found was that when you think about it, revealing something sensitive to someone is showing that you trust the person because I'm saying the thing and I'm like relinquishing control to the universe and I'm implicitly saying I trust you to not make a fool out of me, right? So I'm showing. And when we feel that someone trusts us, it causes us to trust them in return. And why is that important because it is the foundation of human relationships, right? We're herd creatures. We cannot survive without strong relationships. And so when someone abstains saliently from this activity of revealing when they say, I'm opting on advanced ring, we treat them with contempt. So much so that we would rather hire someone, date someone who admits pretty bad things relative to someone who simply abstains. And you could think about it like there's lots of reasons why the non-responder, it could be a principled non-response, right? They could be saying, this is an insensitive, this is not the right question. I have. Jacked, right? Well, when you said, imagine, just imagine you have two people you're trying to decide, you're going to go out and date with. Yes. Do you have any history with STDs? Yes. The second that you told me that the second person was like, I refused to answer that, I'm like, well, that's because you have an STD. Right. I'm going with the person that is willing to reveal that because you're right. I feel like, I mean, it's so obvious now that you explain it, right? Right. But I think when you're in the situation, the instinct is to hide the information. Yes, completely. To put up a perfect front. And to not reveal things that you believe people would judge you for. And in fact, we did other experiments where we put people in that position. We said, okay, you have, like imagine you have, we didn't have make people imagine they had lots of STDs. We've got them to imagine that they had failed an exam or something. And you're getting on a job application. And we like, incentive them to, incentive compatible. And we like, we really wanted them to be honest. And we said, would you reveal this or would you choose not to answer? Almost everyone thinks the wise move there is to choose not to answer. And it's wrong, right? Yes. I don't know if it's the lawyer in me, but now what you're saying is that based on the research, it's actually human nature that when somebody avoids answering something or you even pick up on a smidge of, I don't think I'm going to the full story here. You will not trust that person. And so by not revealing, and you know what's crazy about this? If you really stop is you're listening to Dr. John. And you're imagining these questions. And somebody's like, well, I'm not comfortable answering that. You immediately go liar. Yeah. You immediately believe and assume that the person is not telling you the truth. But here's what's crazy. The person is saying that because they literally don't want you to judge them. But by saying it, you're not, it's crazy. It's so ironic. It's so ironic. And in the law, like I always think the law, how like you're not supposed to, you would know better than I'm butchering how to say it, but where where you plead fifth amendment or whatever you're not supposed to make any inference from that. It's impossible. It's an automatic inference that we make. Yes, it's so true. So you mentioned that you're doing all this research and all of a sudden the research reveals to you that wow, yes, not sharing the truth makes you less trustworthy. There's two other, I won't say I want to hear these two other things that were like blow my mind. Yeah, it's true. So the next was a study, a hard scientific study, I making fun of myself because I love doing fun, but I think deeply revealing experiments with people where I put them in these awkward situations. This was by a neuroscientist, so like a hardcore scientist. And what they did was they put people in brain scanners to look at what areas of their brain were activated. And half of the people they asked them personal questions, so they asked them to reveal. The other half were asked different questions that didn't give them the opportunity to reveal. And what they found was that the people who got to reveal the pleasure centers of their brain were activated if they told the truth. Well, they didn't even tell like the questions were not necessarily places where you would lie. They were like, what's your favorite ice cream flavor? What do you like? They're just anything about yourself, not particularly sensitive, but talking about yourself, revealing about yourself, the pleasure centers of the brain activated relative to when you were talking about yourself. And that to me was like, wow, this is like, these are the really old brain structures. And if there's something really deeply intrinsically rewarding, there's something really important going on here that we need to pay attention to. And just to make sure that I kind of got the power of that insight and that as you're listening or watching, you really pulled out from our esteemed professor. What that tells you, if I'm hearing you correctly, is that you are hard wired to feel good about yourself when you reveal things about you that are true. Completely. That it's part of the design. And I would imagine that if you suppress that, that it has a negative backfiring effect to sense you're wired for this. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. There is a third study which I could talk about that like rocked me. Yeah. What's the third study that rocked you? So the third study that rocked me, I encountered this oldie but goodie or baddie study, depending on how you view the conclusions about what they did in this study was they videotaped preschoolers as they were watching a kind of scary movie. And so they were videotaping them to see how much they expressed on their faces, how much seeped out, how much did they show on their faces of their feelings. They also measured how sweaty their palms are. So this is the galvanic skin response which measures sweat on your fingers. You know how when you get nervous, you get sweaty fingers. And so that's physiological stress, kind of like objective stress if you were to think about it that way. And what they found was that the children who let more out on their faces, they were physiologically calmer. Meaning their fingers weren't sweaty. Correct. So through their facial expression and reacting and revealing, right? You were processing the stressful feelings you had. Exactly. Exactly. Now, that's the awesome. Like that's a total revelation, right? Now I am a mom of a three-year-old, my bunny. He said three-year-old and a five-year-old. And when I read this, you know, they were similar ages and to what they are now, obviously. And the kicker though is that the study found that once the children reached kindergarten age, there had been, there was a gender difference such that the boys were now holding it in. So whereas when they were preschoolers, they were kind of all expressing it. But over time, the boys had learned and I'm using air courts if you're listening. They had been like culturally conditioned to be stoic and like, boys don't show, right? It's these toxic norms we have. And so as a boy mom, I'm, you know, a couple months ago, I saw my little three and a half-year-old being stoic, that face, you know, the stoic face? Yes. And I just broke my heart and it's Tyler like, it's okay. I may be over-commitating, but that really, really shook me. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I'm thinking right now about somebody in my life who recently told me this story about how when he was really, really little, they had a death in the family. And at the funeral, he started to get very, very upset. And, you know, when someone in the family put a hand on this little boy's shoulder and said, you got to be strong for mom. And that became strong for mom. And then the mantra in this person's mind that has really defined the way in which they've expressed emotion or not expressed emotion or, you know, believe that they needed to be stoic. context of your research, I would imagine. And you would say that the being open and the sharing of emotion is really the opportunity to break the hold that strong for mom completely has on you. Completely. Yeah. So what is the life of an undersharer look like? Yes. I would say the life of an undersharer is a life of missed opportunities. It's a life of friendships that never blossom. It's a life of colleagues that never quite trust you. It's a life of romances that don't spark or don't deepen. I know. It's so sad. It is. And how do you know if you're an undersharer versus somebody who is just very much like shy or introverted or just a little bit more of an observer? Right. I love that question because being talkative is not the same thing as being revealing. Or revealing wisely for that matter. Let me just pause you there. Yeah. Because is that aimed at me? No. No. I just can't. That's a joke. I'll go. I love it. I just want to say that those of us that may be a little bit more talkative doesn't necessarily mean you're actually practicing the skill and art of sharing completely. So I'm pretty introverted, but I'm pretty forthcoming. And one of my very best friends is extremely extroverted. And she herself struggles to open up. In fact, she said that she really, really struggles with vulnerability. And at first, I was I said this were a face. But first I thought that that was just like an elaborate home overhead. I can't be vulnerable. But I've seen firsthand that she struggles. And that really has has solidified to me what I call the extroversion illusion, which is that we tend to think equate talkitiveness with going deep and opening up. They're really not at all the same thing. So we love extroverts because they're gregarious. They're talkative. They're they have a really positive affect, right? They're often in a good mood. But when it comes to revealing the really deep stuff, think about the extroverts in your life, they're probably no different than the introverts in terms of how much they reveal or don't, right? So revealing is really a different thing than talking. I love that distinction because when you bring in the word open, how open are you? How much do you actually share versus the blah blah blah blah blah? Yeah. And I would say that the people that are the best revealers, the best shares are the ones that are the most flexible. They have the most disclosure flexibility. So they they have a wide range. They go from extreme openness with their most trusted confidence to like extreme garden ness when the situation calls for, right? So they're really nimble at moving between these extremes. That's an important distinction because when you first kind of dive into your work, you might think, Oh, okay, I just got to be super vulnerable, completely open book. I got blah blah blah. And it's both extremes. It's knowing when to be open and when to be guarded. Right. So how do you know the difference between being the kind of person that tends to just be shy or introverted versus being somebody who's closed and is under sharing and connecting with people? Mm-hmm. That's a great question. I think that you need to look to yourself first and do a kind of audit of, I think a place where this shows up very saliently is in one's relationships, right? Like your spouse, your relationship with your spouse. How much do you share with them? Do you really feel like they know you? Do you feel like you know them? How much are you talking about your feelings versus logistics? Mm-hmm. You do kind of an audit like that. What are some of the things that you would notice if you start to think? And I'll just, I'll just like share this in case it's helpful as you're listening or watching us. So I would say, God, we've married through you. About four or five years ago, Chris and I started seeing a therapist and one of the most shocking things as somebody who's very talkative. And I'm married to somebody who is way more introverted and up in his head and a thinker. And it was extraordinarily fascinating to see that we, even though we were side by side, lots of logistics, doing life together, having fun in terms of our experiences of life and in terms of our connection and our marriage, our therapist uses this term. You two are two people that stand next to each other, but you're sequestered in your own experiences. Jeez. And what was really unbelievable about it is that learning how to be more open with one another, which is different than just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, about your day, is a skill. Completely. And I feel like in the last four years, learning how to be more open with Chris and having him also lean in to learning how to reveal and even talk about the things that he's thinking about or feeling or whatever has brought us so much closer because, and then I think about the last 26 years and we've had completely different experiences in our minds and bodies because we weren't really connecting over it. We were just doing life together, if that makes sense. Well, I think we're like living in a parallel universe because I have had the exact same experience with my own, we have a marriage therapist. He's amazing. You know, I started realizing I'm making all these assumptions about and these tips we get into, it's because we're not actually communicating how we feel. Yeah. And so there's so many things that that like opening this, this box of like what your spouse is thinking and feeling is just so, so helpful for marriage and staying together and it prevents these stupid tips because it's never about the, you know, the dishes and the dishwasher or whatever, right? Dr. John, I love everything that you're sharing with us today. I know as you're listening, you can relate. You're probably thinking about somebody or yourself. You might be thinking about your partner, a friend, a coworker, even maybe one of your kids who really deserves to get all of this information and these life changing takeaways from Dr. John. So while you have that person in mind, I want you to send them this episode and we're going to take a quick break to let our incredible sponsors shine and share a few words, but stay with me because this conversation is only getting more powerful because Dr. John has so much more to share with you and me. Stay with me. Welcome back. It's friend Mel Robbins today. We are talking about the idea that you're not over sharing. You're saying too little. You're learning about the skill of openness and vulnerability and how to have more courage in your life and the benefits of doing so with Harvard Business School professor, Dr. Leslie John. All right. So Dr. John, let's just jump right back into it. You know, you also in your work, you talk about disclosure decisions. Can you explain to the person listening and to me, what is a disclosure decision? I love that. So a disclosure decision is simply a decision of whether to reveal something or to not reveal something. So many of our disclosure decisions ride under the surface. We don't even realize we are making these decisions. So often we just kind of default to silence. We don't even consider the possibility of opening up. And so what I'd like to do is I'd like to do a little demo here. Great. Help us understand this a little bit. A day in the life of disclosure decisions. Okay. So you're going to walk us through the average day and you're going to point out all of these subconscious moments where something is happening in your interpersonal life and you just decide not to say anything. Yes. Oh, I'm feeling as soon as I'm going to be painful. Okay. Just going to be an average boring day, but that's the point. Right. Okay. Average boring day. And Dr. John is reaching down and she is pulling up. There's a basket and there are yellow ping pong ball things like little wiffle ball things that she has in the basket. There's one right there. Okay. You hear it. And why don't you walk us through it's about to happen. And there's a big Mason jar. Okay. I'm going to walk us through the day in a life of disclosure decisions and what my purpose here is I want to make visible something that is typically invisible in our lives. And that is the sheer number of disclosure decisions we actually make unknowingly. And this is also helping us really consider are you open and are you revealing what's happening or are you staying closed and you're under sharing what's happening in your life? Yes. Okay. And as you're listening, you will be able to hear the impact of this, but as you're watching on YouTube, you're going to see this. Right. So I have this Mason jar here. What this Mason jar represents is it represents the things that you thought, but did not say. In fact, you didn't even know. consider saying them, frankly. So, okay, and these are going to be your thoughts. Each one of these little balls, or the thoughts, okay. Each one of these balls is your thoughts, the unsaid. Okay, so you wake up in the morning, you roll over in bed, you hug your spouse, you say, "I love you." And then you think to yourself, "I feel so crappy. I had the worst sleep." So you can hear that's your first thought feeling that you have suppressed, really. You haven't thought of it as suppression, but we're trying to bring awareness to this. And then you think, "Geez, I'm going to be really, it's going to be hard to regulate my emotions today, because when I'm sleep deprived, that's really hard." Next one in the ball, in the jar. Then you go over to the bathroom, you're standing beside your spouse, you're starting to brush your teeth, you look at yourself in the mirror, and you think, "I look fine, but I don't love the way I look." You think, "I really thought I would feel younger at this age. I feel older than I thought I would." Then you both go down to the kitchen, your kids are frolicking and scampering about, and your husband or your spouse starts making their lunch for the day, and the spouse says, "Hey, what do you think they want for snack?" And you say, "Just give them something. Stop, just you pick." Spass says, "Whoa." And you think, "Oh my gosh, I'm just so exhausted. I just need a little bit more leeway today because I'm so tired, and I really just need a hug, and I've got this big presentation coming up, and I'm so overwhelmed." You don't say any of these things. Instead, you're now in a fight with your husband, because your husband's like, "What? I'm, or your spouse. What? I'm doing something nice." You get in the car, you start driving to work, your father calls you, you think, "Oh, geez. What? What's my father doing?" Because you realize that he's driving. My father is driving. My father shouldn't be behind the wheel. You're like, "Should he be behind the wheel? I don't think his eyesight is good enough. I don't think he should be behind the wheel." But instead, you just say, "Hey, dad, let's talk later when you're not driving." You get to work, your assistant says, "How you doing?" You say, "Great." But you don't say, as I'm feeling overwhelmed, I've got a big presentation day. You get into your office, I could go on and on, right? You get into your office, and your work bestie comes in. They say, "How you doing? What's up? What's on tap today?" You say, "I got a big meeting, big presentation. I'm super excited." What you don't say is, "I'm feeling anxious. Maybe we could go through the beginning together. That might help me." And on and on, and I'm already full here. I could totally 9.30. Exactly. Like you can think of then later in the day, your boss comes, says, "Congrats. Great job on the presentation." And you say, "Thanks." But what you could have said is, "You have no idea what that means to me. I was super anxious and I crushed it and I'm so proud of myself. And maybe you could give me more opportunities just because I love it so much." And then it's like career advancement. Right? So the point here is not to, I'm not saying we should say all of these things out loud. That would be chaos. There's lots of good reasons why we withhold. We're being kind. We don't have the time to get to it. We're being strategic. Our assistant asks us how we're doing. We don't want to bog them down. We want a quick, easy breezy. But our work bestie, like we can't tell them we're feeling little anxious. They could give you a hug. They could say, "Oh, I've been feeling the same way. They could say so many things. Almost anything they say will be helpful." You know, what's really powerful about this example? Whether you're just hearing the prong, or you're watching all of these unsaid things pile up, is you feel how weighed down you are. And what I would love to hear is what is the implication in terms of your energy or your mood or your own health, your happiness from constantly withholding and undersharing. Right. So there is a lot that we know about undersharing withholding. It's really bad for our mental and physical health. So for example, when we keep secrets, we tend to ruminate about them. And that decreases mental focus. It literally lowers your IQ on tests when you're holding secrets. It also is associated with decreased well-being. People who hold secrets, they have lower objective measures of physical health. So there's all kinds of health issues. And I'm just getting at the physical mental health. I'm not even getting at the missed opportunities of what your relationship could be. And the problems you're causing by not opening up, right? Well, if we just take the example, yeah. Like the missed opportunities and what you just said is connection with the person first saying, "I had a scary dream. Oh my god, I'm getting related." Yeah. Like, you're missing connection reassurance. Yes. When you look in the mirror and you were nice to yourself, I just say, "You're old." I'm normally like, "God, you look terrible." I don't say I'm filtering a little bit. Yeah, I get it. Like, if I say it, I still have acne. I mean, my 40s. What's up with that? Apparently your hormones are still working. That's what's up with that. But when I say to Chris, I just feel really ugly lately. I just feel unattractive. He always reassures me. Yeah. And it feels like it has less of a grip on me. Yes. In terms of work, you're missing out on getting the support that you made. And the other thing that kept really striking me, and I don't know if it really hit you as you were listening or watching to Dr. John, is how every time that ball dropped, I felt the weight of somebody feeling like everything was on their shoulders, that it was all up to them, that nobody, that they had to figure it out on their own. And it was interesting to watch that because I think that's been one of my big stories that I've been working to change, which is, it's all up to me. And a lot of that gets reinforced when you don't open up. Totally. About what you're dealing with or you don't open up about the emotions that you're feeling. Right. You just bury it and bury it and bury it and bury it. In fact, we, it's something in my household I'm working on as well. And I said to Colin, I'm really exhausted by the number of decisions I need to make every day. Not disclosure decisions, but like snack. And so just telling him that he's, he, he couldn't read my mind. And now he's just making decisions. I said, I would love for you to just make the decision if I disagree. I'll tell you. But so that, I have a dear friend of mine who for Mother's Day, she, she's so into and with herself. For Mother's Day, she asked to make zero decisions. It was so awesome. Doesn't that sound so blissful? But this is also part of the point, which is that in order to do this, well, you have to have self-awareness. You have to really understand what's going on in your mental state. And so even things like, like sharing your feelings and all the things that the scientific research on how opening up, whether it's to therapist or writing it down in a journal, that is extremely therapeutic for us. It helps us process our feelings. It helps us feel better. In order to do that well, you have to have insight into your psychological state. And when I, when I started doing this, and this is why, again, I'm telling you I was a guinea pig because if, like, I'm a recovering emotional illiterate, because I went, when my therapist, I was, I don't know, I was fetching about something. And he's like, well, how do you feel? And I was saying cognitions, you know, like, I feel trapped or whatever. I feel like this doesn't make sense. He's like, those are thoughts. I feel am like, then I literally asked him, what is a feeling? Like, PhD, what is a feeling? And then he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which I printed a version of that in the book, which I found so helpful, which helps you to really figure out what you're feeling. And if you start with a really core feeling, so for example, the way the wheel works is you start off with, you just ask yourself, the version I have in my book is like, super for me, emotional illiterate. So it starts off with a very simple question, like thumbs up, thumbs down, positive, negative. Okay, I got that. Then the next layer out of this circle is getting a little bit more refined, which is simply, is this an emotion that's very arousing? Like, is there a lot of energy behind it? Or is it more of a non-arousing energy? Like a calm. And it turns out there's four combinations, right? So you can have, you can have a positive that's really active, like joy, excitement. You can also have a positive emotion that's low arousal, like calm. The same is true about negative things, like anger, rage, those are full force active, but like boredom would be something that's more. And so, and then once you get those, you can get, I won't go into deals now. But the next ring is like, anger, okay, is it disappointment? Is it rage, right? And you can take literally like, oh, that one, that one, that one, that's me. And once you start doing this, you expand your emotional vocabulary, which helps you understand yourself better, which helps you communicate better. Well, what's helpful about that very simple construct? Am I feeling good or bad? Yep. And am I feeling like I want to do something about it? Or am I like energy? Or am I feeling low about it? That just even considering that if you're laying in bed and you're like, I love you, honey. And then you're like, wait, I feel bad right now. Yeah. And it's like bringing me down. Yeah. That's a way to access and that like something's up. Like I just feel really low energy today. Can you give me a hug now? You just, I see what you're thinking. like the energy you can serve as a cue to help you understand. For sure. For sure. I love that. Yeah. Let's just give like a really specific takeaway. So let's say you listen to this episode of your watch it. You go home at the end of the day. Your partner's like, how is your daily fine? Or what's wrong? You're like nothing. I don't know about it. Do you have any kind of easy quick ways to make yourself a little bit more open even if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk? Yes. Well, so if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk, you can defer it and say, I'm exhausted and I don't want to talk. But thank you for asking. Let me have a drink or let me have a relaxation time. Yeah, I'm right. Okay, great. Love it. Number one, but if you are ready to engage, you're going to do. You're going to do to complete the sentence. Okay. You're going to do two. The first one, which is the most important, you're going to say, I feel you're going to complete that sentence. And then you're going to say, I need and you're going to complete that sentence. The I feel is even more important. Sometimes you don't know what you need and maybe you ref a bit on what you need. But I feel is really crucial. It's really crucial because it is more vulnerable than a thought. And because it's more and we're talking about a personal, close relationship, when we show some vulnerability, it invites care. It's also not debatable the way a thought is. Thoughts are dictated by right and wrong and logic. And so if you say how you feel feelings are feelings like they're valid. Now it might not be as easy as it seems because sometimes you list adjectives and set of thoughts and we've kind of been there that you want to really get into feelings. I think this is very easy. Like I think this is so simple. Okay, good. Because if you think about how was your day and you're like, I feel overwhelmed. Yeah, totally. Or I feel proud of myself. Yeah. I don't even know what I need because I'm so overwhelmed. Right. Like that's a different conversation than fine. Yeah. If somebody says what's wrong and you say I feel kind of confused about. Yeah. How I'm feeling right now. I don't even know what's wrong. I feel. Yes. And so maybe we should manage the word fine. The third rule is don't say fine. I like it because it's simple. And we can all take those two sentences. I feel I need. Exactly. Yeah. And you can do that with a work colleague too. I feel and I need. And I like I need to because the reason I like I need it helps you get you in touch with yourself of what you need. And think about what you need. And it helps to because your partner can't read your mind say what you need. And so some examples may include. I need a hug. I need you to just listen. I don't want to fix. I just need you to listen. I need you to be on my side. I need you to help me see if I'm thinking through this the right way. I need you to help me figure out what I'm missing. Right. All I need you to finish that in so many different ways. I need multiple things. Yeah. That's really simple and powerful. Dr. John, I have so many more questions that I want to ask you. But let's just pause for a second because this part of the conversation is one of those moments where I know as you're listening or watching, you're thinking, Oh, wait, I do that. I stay silent. I smooth it over. I tell myself it's not worth bringing up. And I don't know about you. But I'm already starting to replay a lot of what she's saying and replaying a lot of things where I'm like, why didn't I just say something? I mean, I thought it was being easygoing. When really, I'm just avoiding the truth. And now I'm learning the weight that that creates for you. And we don't have to live like that. So while you sit with that, Texas to somebody who deserves to hear this, Texas to somebody that stays silent and you want them to be more open. And we're going to take a short break. We're going to let our sponsors shine. Do not go anywhere because Harvard Business School professor, Dr. John has so much more to teach you, including she's going to explain why saying the thing you're afraid to say. Builds trust, not follow. Stay with me. Welcome back at your friend, Mal Robbins. We're here today with Harvard Business School professor, Dr. Leslie John, talking about the benefits and the skill of being open. All right. So Dr. John, this is where I wanted to go next. You know, you hear a lot in the news right now about loneliness. Yep. And how does just kind of having these surface level interactions of people and not really opening up about anything or not being curious about the people in your life such that you're wanting them to open up. Like how is that contributing to the disconnection that you're feeling? Yeah. So I think that surface level connections, surface level interactions give this illusion of connection because they have all the trappings of real connection, right? Like they've got the smiling, even if it's a little force, they've got the eye contact, the shared experience. So they've got a lot of that trapping. But without the social risk, which is opening up a little bit, they, these types of superficial interactions, they end up making you feel, especially this introvert socially full, but emotionally malnourished, right? Oh, that's an interesting distinction. So your cup is full. I've had enough. I need to go on a stimulation too much for me, but you actually don't feel anything. Right. Yeah. Oh, I love. So the stimulation of it versus the actual richness of the connection. Yeah. Yeah. And so then the question becomes, well, how do you do it? I don't know. What do we do? Right. What do we do? Okay. So in general, I would say you want to go, so you're not going to say, so you imagine you're, you're watching your kids play soccer, you're not going to all of a sudden go deep randomly out of the blue. Like that's not what we're doing. What you're going to do is you're going to go, you think of it go as going one layer deeper than what you ordinarily. Okay. Give us the sentence. So what do you do? Right. So now let's break it down even more. Yes. So what you can do is instead of thinking as we're on the watching our kids, instead of commenting on what is happening or what what happens, like, oh, they're having so much fun, right? Try to think about a cue is to think about what does that mean to you? So for example, you could say, oh, look at our kids are having so much fun. You know, I don't even remember the last time I left that hard. When did you last laugh really hard? Like a good belly laugh. And that does two things. So that's that's getting it interesting and deep right away. It's also staying pretty positive, right? We're not getting into like when's the last time you cried. We're not getting dark, but we're prompting some reflection. And this is like ninja level. Um, I did another thing. I'm flattering myself. I'm really I'm taking one of my best friend, Alison Wood Brooks is who's who's been on your show. One of her fundamental findings, which is we don't ask enough questions. So you want to say this kind of what it means to you. When's the last time I I laughed that hard. And then the great thing here is you're passing the torch oftentimes people naturally reciprocate and they'll say, oh, yeah, me too. I, but if they don't, you can prompt it by saying when's the last time you had a great laugh. Mm. And then then you're off to the right and you don't need you're not trying to get for a deep friendship. But you're like, this will be a fun, meaningful conversation. It's not just small talk. Well, it's true because I think most of it put myself in that kind of scene. Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, it's a beautiful day. Right. You know, oh, how are your kids doing? Right. Oh, you know, what, what are you doing this weekend? Like it's just all this stuff right here. So look at what's happening and think about what it's triggering in you and then turn and reveal. Yeah. And then ask someone's last time you felt like that. Exactly. Like I immediately thought about the fact that, oh, watching your kids, it made me, you know, I ran track in high school. I really miss being on a team. Did you play team sports totally? Yeah. I got it. Wow. I want to read to you from your book, Revealing this page 85 research speaks to wide ranging tools of concealment. For example, the more frequently people think about their secrets, the more likely they are to experience feelings of inauthenticity, lower relationship satisfaction and even worse physical health outcomes. Talk about the cost of secrets. Yes. Yeah. So I think the main issue with secrets is they are really preoccupying. They really, we think they're a nerd. We think they're neutral, but they really, really sneak up on us and occupying our psyche. And one of the tricky things with secrets is that they represent kind of an unresolved loop in your mind. Because if you have a secret, you kind of haven't really resolved your constantly monitoring. Should I say should I not? And it's like you're kind of perpetually ruminating over this disclosure decision, essentially. I'm not saying we should reveal all our secrets. Some secrets are important to be kept. I wanted to get into this only because I feel like they're in the context of your research. Yeah. There's a difference between saying, saying, this information is private. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm not ashamed of it. Completely. I am just, I have boundaries with who is going to know this information and who's not, but I'm not holding this information over my own head. Right. Secrets feels like something that you use the word unresolved loop to my mind. That you are holding over your own head and that you're wrestling with. So a secret, an example might be that you have fallen out of love with somebody and that you don't know how to tell them. And you have this secret that you are planning on breaking up with this person, but you don't know how. I had that. Yeah. I know it's so hard. And it's so hard. I think that you hit the nail on the head though. Like, being private, having boundaries is one thing. And the difference there is that you've made a decision that this is my boundary. With a secret, it's unresolved. Like in that case of like, you really need to tell this person somehow because it's not good for either of you. But how? And that's I think a lot of the case with secrets. Most all the time, it's not a question of whether to reveal, but it's a question of how to whom and when. Because even if it's just you writing in a journal, that secret, that is going to make you, that is going to help you feel better. It's going to, it's going to remove this rumination. It'll resolve it in certain ways because there's actually really interesting processes that go on in the brain when you reveal to yourself on paper or out loud. So, so somehow it's got to be revealed. And you said how to whom and when. Yeah. And I talked though about how the research shows that when you're open about feelings, it's can be more persuasive than making a logical argument, even at work. Yes. Like why do people listen more or care more when your emotions are involved? I know. We think emotions. Ah, they're the filler. But emotions are information and they're really credible. They're really credible because they're hard to fake. So they also are riskier than sharing thoughts, which also makes them credible because you really mean it if you're willing to take the risk to share some emotion. Oftentimes the answer is reveal. So reveal why you're crying. Say tie it to your passion for your job. I am crying because I care so much about the stakeholders of this company that we better forget this right. So linking it to passion then can make it more compelling instead of being, especially like with women gender, we worry about that too, like emotional. So if you're able to do that, then it can be quite powerful. But you of course, you have to be careful because it is a tricky, it is a very tricky thing. But I've had my own experiences ugly crying and I had a, I don't know if you want me to tell the story, but I had a, when I was a baby academic, I gave a talk at a very fancy university, which has a reputation for being very tough on speakers, read A-holes to speakers. And they were asking me difficult questions, which I expect, which is good science. But what was bothering me was that they were asking them in a belligerent, rude way, right? And interrupting me. So they were, they were being rude. And finally, I just couldn't hold back anymore. And I just, you know, I was trying, I was smart to try to not cry, right? These are people I'm a baby academic. They're in charge of my fate because they're going to like write me louders to say if I'm any good when I'm out of the motion. So I was really trying, but I just couldn't, I couldn't. So I'm just full on ugly crying, full on ugly stage. So yeah, in front of like, there's like 30 people seeing your academics at this university. And I'm, it's not, I write about it in the book. And I always, as in the book, I say, this sounds more composed than it was. You have to remember that the sound effects are, right? Like, as I'm, but so I start bawling. And then I think to myself, I'm like, they need to know why I'm crying because otherwise they're going to think that I'm just like, I can't take hard scientific questions. And so I stopped and I said, I'm starting to hug because I need to tell you why I'm crying. I'm crying. I'm not crying because you're asking me hard questions. I'm crying because you're being belligerent. I'm crying because you're being rude. And I didn't stop there, which I maybe showed up. But I was like, okay, I've lit this thing on fire. So why not? And you know, you, I might have even pointed a finger. You may not know this because you, all you see is the way you are, but you know you have a reputation. It's not okay and it has to stop. What happened? Well, so then they, they, they were quiet the rest of the time. They were scared of me. I did get a few apologies afterwards. And then, well, first of all, it was not career suicide that I thought it would be. In fact, one of the faculty who was there later revealed to me, you know, 10 years later that he, he wrote a really great supportive letter for my promotion. And the other thing though that I thought was really cool about it other than the mortal humiliation was that a couple of friends who went there a few weeks later, they were actually reasonable to them. And so I thought maybe, maybe I helped just a little bit. And this is related to something. I wouldn't call this exactly that, but something I call a catalyst confession. So the catalyst confession is when someone who is in a leadership position comes out and says something really bold, like magic Johnson. In the 90s, he came out and said, I'm HIV positive. And at the time, this was the gay disease. This was highly stigmatizing. And he really, really shaped the conversation in a positive way. In fact, there have been studies that have looked at, like kind of pre-post his announcement. And it was concluded that he probably caused about 900 additional people to get tested. So I think the opportunity for revealing in leadership, yes, at the micro level you can get feedback. We can also talk about how you can gain more influence. But I think the real magic of it, speaking of magic Johnson, is in the ability to like use your position to like destigmatize and to really, that's real leadership in my book. You know, I, it's interesting. You call that story humiliating because it may have felt that way. But from the outside hearing it, it sounds courageous and liberating because you called them out. Well, so the distinction is you saying, this is why and it's not because of me. It felt because of you. It's you. And it's clear that change did happen. And I love that you brought in the fact that you have a reputation for doing this. And it has to stop. So Dr. John, I want you to speak directly to the person that's here listening or watching right now. If they take one action based on everything that you have shared with us today, what is the most important thing to do? It is to share your feelings. And now that you've listened to this podcast, you know I'm not being trite. You know that there's a lot of heft in that. Feelings are data. Feelings are really, really valuable information. Dr. Leslie John, what are your parting words? There's a study by a Cornell psychologist, Tom Gillovich. He's looked at the things that people regret in life. And he's found that 76% of the things that people regret in life are the things they did not do, the things they didn't say. Then there's research by a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware. She has spent many, many hours with people on their deathbeds and she wrote a book, chronicling one of the things that they tend to regret. The number three regret, the number three most common regret of people that are dying is I wish I had shared by feelings more. Share your feelings. Yeah. Share, be more open and honest. I am so excited that you are here in Boston, Professor and Dr. Leslie John. Thank you, thank you, thank you from coming across the river and being here and sharing everything that you did today. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. I am so excited to see what you do with this conversation who you share with. Actually, sharing this episode with somebody that you want to be more connected to is a way that you can be more open. I listened to this. I learned a lot about myself. I want to connect deeply with you. Let's take a listen. Let's talk about it. I can't wait to hear what you thought and how you're going to apply this. Because Dr. John said that we should do one thing, which is start by sharing our feelings, I'm going to share my feelings with you. As your friend, I want to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. If you ask yourself, what might I be missing out on by not revealing? By not sharing, by not being open, when you really consider what you're missing out on, I know that you will create a better life by being more open and by being more curious with the people that you deeply care about. And now you have the research and the roadmap to go do it. All right. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. [MUSIC] We are in the middle of a loneliness, but today's guest, but today's guest, who is a Harvard Business School professor, who studies what the- which will completely change- which completely changed how I think about silence. So without further ado, help me welcome- oh, sorry. So without further ado, because this conversation is only going to get more power for out. Oh my god. We're here today talking about the idea that you're- we're here today- Fantastic. Okay, excellent job. Excellent. You did dynamite. How do you feel? Thank you. Great. Thank you. You guys are such pros. Well, you did dynamite. It was so fun. It's over-warding. Oh, and one more thing. I know this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Sirius XM podcasts. This segment is sponsored by Expedia. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You decide, okay, that's it. I'm taking a vacation. And then you hop online to book it and suddenly, oh my gosh, you have so many caps open. And it's so overwhelming that now you feel like you need a vacation from trying to book a vacation. That's what makes Expedia so great. It is your one stop shop where every single detail of your vacation is organized in one reliable, easy to use place. Flites, hotels, rental cars, activities and things to do, everything in one place. Expedia makes vacation planning easy so you can focus on what matters. Enjoying yourself. 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