Hard Conversations With Yourself

Hello and welcome to the Soundflist doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer. My name is Bob Cawflin and what a joy it is to be together again. Yeah. Today we are talking about, well this is the fourth part in our four part series. Although as I mentioned the last time we are not calling the series because knowing everyone listens to the other parts of this series. So we've done hard conversations. That's the series. Hard conversations with your pastor, hard conversations with your team, hard conversations with your church members. Today, do you want to? This is probably going to be my favorite one. Really? Hard conversations with yourself. Okay. Because you have a hard time talking to yourself. It's so off it would truly yes. No, but so often we are looking outside of ourself to fix the problems. Someone else's fault. But if I know myself it typically always is coming back to what is happening in my life that is keeping everything challenging around me. This is really where we should have started. We thought we said the best for last. That's end with it. Yeah. And before this could be you know hard conversations with the Lord. Obviously if you're having hard conversations with yourself it should be in the Lord's presence in view of the Lord. That's what the psalmist do. They have hard conversations with themselves all the time. But it's always in light of who the Lord is when he said yes. So but before we dive in we just want to thank those who are listening who are serving their churches. Because these are going to be some hard conversations. Maybe harder than some of the others. You know when someone else when you have to have talked to someone else well okay great I can handle that. But when it's with you we tend to have blind spots. So these are going to be by the Lord's mercy and grace the Spirit's working. You know these will get at some of the things that we might be blind to. But before we get into it you know where will you serve? Whether you're a small church or a big church. Whether you're part of the team or the leader. Whether you're doing it by yourself. If you're part of a big team. Whatever ways you serve. Thank you. Because God sees it. A lot of times it will make sacrifices that no one sees but God sees them. I think in this verse in Hebrews 6, verse 10. "For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work. And the love that you have shown for His name and serving the saints as you still do." Just love that. That's from the Lord Himself. He doesn't overlook the work that you do and the love that you've shown for in His name, for His name and serving the saints. So thank you. Now we want to have some hard conversations with ourselves. And the first one, well actually before we get David I had two scriptures I wanted to share. One was Psalm 139. The end of that beautiful Psalm 139. And David says, "Search me, oh God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts. And see if there be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting." So this is something that we're called on to do. God searched me, know my thoughts. And then in Psalm 19, it was just in the See of the Day. Verse 12. "Who can discern His errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults." Hidden faults. Those are the ones we don't see. Verse 13, "Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins." Those are the ones we do see. "Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless and innocent of great transgression." Of course, the only one that could really be set up is Jesus. Right, right, right. "Let the words of my mouth and meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight. O Lord, by rock and by redeemer." So this is what these questions are aimed at. Search my heart, know me, you know, "Keep back your servant from presumptuous sins to come to me, innocent from hidden faults." Lord, help me see these things. So the first is if you're a leader, if you're a part of a team, first hard conversation you might want to have yourself with is, "Are my private and public devotions consistent?" Or, "Is my private and public devotion consistent?" Is what I do, in the way I act, in the congregation, the same as what I do when I'm in front of people. Yeah. Is my zeal for the Lord when I'm at home, the same as my zeal for the Lord when I'm on the platform. Do I. What would you say that? Well, I have a list here, but. Yeah. I'll go to your thoughts. Yeah, I think a good question to ask is, am I drinking from shallow cisterns throughout the week? Sure, I'm up to. Yeah, to show up and feel like I have an abundance of wisdom and knowledge. Yeah. You know, we're so distracted in our daily lives that just looks like a completely. We look like two different people. Yes, yeah, and that's the whole public private thing. Is my. Do I. Is the time that I spend with. Do I spend time with the Lord? Maybe that's the first question. Starts our. Yeah. You know, how much time do I spend in God's Word? How much of my spiritual time is just preparation for public ministry? Right. Rather than feeding my soul. You know, a lot of leaders who fall get into that habit of just always preparing for something public. They don't feel like they have to feed from the well-ums, drink from the well-themselves. Yes. I'm just a conduit. I'm just helping you drink from the well. Right. But no, we have to drink from the well. Yeah. And I think the thing that I'm most convicted about is my personal prayer life. My personal. Is my dependence on the Lord showing up in my prayer life. I think I just read a Spurgeon quote and I'm not going to get it anywhere close to right. But he said something like, "If you're not praying, you're a hypocrite." That's a good quote. That is exactly right. And it's just so true. Yeah, it's just so true. How would you have any dependence on the Lord on a Sunday if you have no dependence on Him throughout the week? You know, in your prayer life and in your study of God's Word. Yeah. So the Lord is regularly calling His people to account for acts of public devotion that aren't backed up by private devotion. Are you going to Psalms? I'm going to Psalm 50. Yeah. He says. So he calls us people. He says, "I will speak. I will testify against you. I'm your God, your God." And then he says in verse 16, "To the wicked God says, 'What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips?' For you hate discipline. You cast my words behind you." So I think of when we don't spend time in the Word, we just cast God's words behind us. We're all about it on Sunday morning. Yeah. But we just cast Him behind us. If you see a thief, you're pleased with him. And you keep company with adulterers. There's not a real wall against sexual temptation, sinful temptation. You keep company with it. You give your mouth. And he goes on. You know, it's not. He doesn't let up. You give your mouth free, rain for evil, and your tongue frames to seat. Just lie about things. Yeah. You aren't telling the truth. You sit and speak against your brother. You slander your own mother's son. You talk about people in the congregation. You know, your family, your friends. You just say bad things about them. You don't have the truth. It might be true, but you are spreading that. You're a slanderer. You're a whisperer. You separate close friends. You're private and you're public devotioner inconsistent. Right. That's the first question. Is my private and public devotion consistent? Here's another hard question. Why do I do what I do? Look. I think it's helpful to say that mixed motives will always be an issue until we're with Jesus. Like there's no one who. Every moment of every day. I am loving the Lord with all my heart. So I'm loving my neighbors myself. So there will be mixed motives. But how do I view my serving? You know? Is it a job? Is it a duty? Is it something I'm checking a box? Is it fulfilling my part? Or am I hoping I'm noticed? Yeah. You know? Is it a platform to display my gifts? A stepping stone to some career or some recognition? Something greater than what I'm doing now? Just why do I do what I do? Yeah. And I would add. How quick are you to repentance in all of these kind of things? Oh, very good. - Yeah. - I just am thinking like, as we're talking about mixed motives and as we're talking about our private devotion and our public devotion, I think there, it will be very easy to be discouraged. I mean, I'm discouraged when I read these things because I realize, I don't, I do have mixed motives. I do, you know, I do struggle in my private devotion. Like I do struggle in my prayer life. But I think the best question to ask is how close am I? How quick am I to repent? - Yes. - I think I might have to say, yeah, that isn't right. Yeah, I do, I do, I did put my ego there first. I wasn't thinking about it. So I, just to, as a disclaimer for all these categories, I think being quick to repent of ways we see, ways that the Spirit is showing us. - Yes. - Like, you know, this, you've gotten your priorities mixed up. - Yeah, yeah. And it's, I think the Lord encourages, He wants us to be encouraged by the fact that we're moving in the right direction. - Yeah, good. - So, yeah, why I do what I do, not so great. Okay, even to realize that is the Spirit's work. - Yeah. - Great. - And you can confess that, recognize that Jesus bore the sin of that on Himself so that you could be forgiven. You are forgiven of it. So yeah, let's, let's move on from there. Let's seek to do what we do in the name of Jesus for the glory of God. - Yeah. - That's what we're seeing. - Yep, yep. - So that leads into the next question, which is, do I do what I do to serve or impress? - Mm-hmm. - So it's tied into the, maybe a subset of the why, do I do what I do? But do I do what I do to serve people, to serve the congregation, to serve the other members of the team, to serve my pastor, or do I do it to impress them? And that's often revealed or maybe rooted in envy or comparison, where I'm just aware that other people might be better than I am, or think they're better than I am. And I wanna show they're not. - Oh, totally. - Yeah. - Not only on a personal level, on Sundays and your gatherings or whatever, but on a social media level. Now that-- - We've gotta do a whole series on social media. - Now that you're quoting, your quote unquote, "gifting" is quantifiable through likes or shares or whatever it is, that wasn't a thing. It would just, we just had to struggle with, hey, how am I presenting myself to my fellow church members, or my friends or whatever. Now we have that on a global scale. Literally, the world has access to your, whatever, your gifts or your talents or whatever. So it's like, man, envy and comparison, like if that's unchecked, on a local level, and it's unchecked on a global level, that will only lead to, I mean, despair. - Yeah, burn out. (laughs) - Well, I'm-- - Identity crisis, I mean, fill in the blank. - I'm looking for the place that is so often where, where Jesus just says to his disciples, look, I don't want you to be like the Gentiles. It's, remember a message that John Payne gave at the gathering of the gospel conference. - Yeah. - It shall not be so with you. - Yes. - And what is it that should not be so? That we're doing everything to lord it over people. That we're doing everything to impress people. That we're doing everything because we want them to think we're really great. And I hear it is right here. It's in Luke 22, verse 25. He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, those in authority over them are called benefactors." So that's the thing, they're called benefactors. Oh, look at you. You're so gifted, you're so generous, you're so great, you're so amazing. - But not so with you. Rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest and the leader as one who serves. And then I am among you as one who serves. I just want to pause here, camp out here just for a moment and say in this world of social media, everybody's platform has been expanded, potentially. There's only one whose opinion matters. There's only one. It's not the people who show up in their Facebook feed. It's not the people who are following you on Instagram. It's not the people who follow you on TikTok or sub-sac or whatever else you do. Those opinions ultimately don't matter. It's the Lord Himself. We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. That's very sobering. So do I do what I do to serve people as Jesus was saying we should or do I do it to look like a benefactor? It makes an eternal difference. Yeah, yeah. It does it makes an internal difference. And there's a relief that comes when you don't carry that burden any longer. Talk about that. That's, I mean, when you're carrying the burden of what other people think about you and when your life is dedicated to building a platform that you think will make you happy or successful, you're missing out on the, like you just said, the one opinion that matters. And you're carrying a burden that's too heavy to carry on your own. Yes. You know, there's relief that comes when you realize that Jesus Himself did not come to be served, and to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many. What a paradox. Yeah. Yeah. And we're not adding anything to what He's done. We're just simply repeating what He's done. Bearing witness to it. So it's not that the glory is going to us anyways. Yes. You know, but we, yeah, we've so twisted that. And if you don't recognize that you're just called to serve, not call it impressed, it just create, it can create all kinds of bad fruit in your heart, like grumbling and bitterness, and just, just this weightedness. You talked about that just as burdened, you know, burnout, you know, that people experience because I can't do it, I can't do it. Yeah. That's where Jesus's words in Matthew 11, 28 through 30, we should have these in our hearts, and in our minds, and in our souls, come to me. All who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Yeah. Where's that laboring and heavy ladeness come from? Well, a lot of times it comes from just trying to be the greatest in the room. Yeah, totally. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke, you're already carrying a yoke. Yeah. Let me give you my yoke. My yoke is easy. My burden is light. Good. What, what a, yeah, and then we were talking about this earlier, you mentioned first Corinthians 4, 7. Mm-hmm. Who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? Yeah. If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? Yeah. We're such idiots. Very easy to boast in what we do. And then Paul says earlier, first Corinthians 4, 1, this is how one should regard us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Yeah. That's what we are. We're just stewards. We're not innovators. We're not creating this stuff. Yeah. We're just passing it on. Yeah, that's good. And then you mentioned at the end of 1 Corinthians 4, we were talking earlier about Paul's example. Yes. Of, yeah. You know what we say about that? Well, I just, I mean, he goes on. And it just, it flies in the face of our Western way of thinking of, I love that he makes the paradox of, or the dichotomy of, you have nice clothes. We do not. Yeah. You know, you're-- You become rich. You become kings. Right. We're not. Yeah. We're reviving, we're-- we're reviving, we bless. We are the scum of the earth. We have become, and are still, like, the scum of the world, the refuse of all things. Yes, the apostle. Right. Talking. Right. But it's because he's so treasured Christ above it all. And that's really this podcast is-- we have hard conversations with ourselves because we treasure so many things. Amen. Above Christ. Amen. Whether it's our reputation or our-- You know, it's people pleasing or it's our skills or gifts. Yeah, yeah, and these don't have to be hard conversations. Right. If we're pursuing humility, they're not hard conversations. Yeah. We want these conversations. Yeah. But most of us aren't pursuing. Yeah. Right. Okay, let's move on to something a little less deep perhaps, but still important. Do I pursue my role diligently? Yeah. You know, Romans 12-11 says, "Do not be slothed, Lanzille, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord." So, you know, whatever role you play, you know, as you come in to, and then we're thinking of musicians here primarily, but you come in maybe early, you know, it's like, do you just drag in, just kind of grumbling, you know. Do you come in late? Yeah, and do I value what God has given me to do? Do I know that others are depending on me? Yeah, that one's great. You know, maybe, uh, lateness is your problem. Just you're always late. They're going to be reasons to be late, but maybe you're always late. Do I realize that keeps other people from using their time wisely? Yeah. Do I realize that my disorganization can tempt people to anxiety or affect the way things actually go in the meeting? Yeah. So, everybody's ready, but me. Yeah. I don't know what I want to do. I'm going to go again. Yeah. When, you know, someone threw up in the morning and, you know, cat, you know, was hit by a car or whatever, you know, there are, there are those days, but if, if it's just always that way, yeah. You know, where are we again? What, you know, I was, what, like, yeah, people are depending on you. Yeah, we tell them it's on that all the time. People are depending on you. Okay. They're depending on you. I think that's good. Well, and I think if you are, if you're the music leader at your church, I mean, your, maybe your laziness or your lack of diligence is also, it's not shepherding your team. Yeah. And it's not, it's not even shepherding your church, you know. So, I think that's a, that's a category we should have. Like, hey, this is an opportunity not only to serve, but to shepherd, to direct these people. Yeah. You know, like, that's good. You can, if you're prepared, you can speak into your team. Yeah. You can speak into the church. Yes. And if, as a leader, we're not, we're not evaluating or following up, that can cause our team to stay in the same place for years. Oh, yeah. And never grow. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember one time a vocalist came to me and said, "Hey, I just wonder what you thought about, you know, my seeing." And I was, "I didn't even hear they're singing." Yeah. I had no idea. Yeah. So that was just a good reminder for me. You need to be paying attention to what? It's happening here. Came across this proverb every time I read, well, I come across it every time I read "Proverbs." And it's very sobering because it, we can think that, you know, in being lazy, lacking diligence, that we're just kind of missing out on a few things. You know, just things aren't going quite as well. "Proverbs 189 says, 'Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.'" Hmm. That's just very sobering. Yeah. You know, if I'm not fulfilling my role, I am the same as someone who's actively seeking to undermine what people are doing. Yeah. We don't want to be like that. I know. The Proverbs are full of those. Another one I love is, you know, what's the Proverbs when, you know, you send a messenger, but they're like, they're not diligent enough to, to, you know, deliver the message. And it's like, "Smoke to the eyes." It's like vinegar to the teeth or whatever. It's like, "Oh, driving me nuts." But it's like, we don't realize those, even those, even tiny decisions that we make. Yes. Where we put our preferences before others. Yeah, it's not good. So, do I pursue my role diligently? Here's another one. Do I seek, I'm sorry, do I do what I do for eternal or financial game? Hmm. So, if you serve from church to church, and I don't know how many people who do that would be listening to this podcast, I hope you are. But you aren't planted in a body. You aren't being used in the way God wants to use you. So, all the metaphors that God uses for the church, in the New Testament, imply connection, body, building, field, temple, spiritual house. You don't want bricks like popping it into how to your house, you know, out of your walls. Yeah. You want them there. You want parts of your body, just kind of jumping off and joining other parts of other bodies. You want them there. If no one can depend on us, if we're just, you know, going from week to week to different churches, there's no accountability. And we're not contributing to the life of the church. A meeting, yes. But not the church. Yeah. That's if you're being paid for that. Now, if you're being paid for a position in a church that you wouldn't otherwise be at, you may be putting financial gain before eternal gain. You may be looking at what you can gain materially versus what you can gain spiritually. Those are, those are getting confused. That's huge. It is huge. I mean, first Peter 5, 2, he's talking to pastors, but this could apply to musicians. Shepard the flock of God is that among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly. Well, what's shameful gain? Well, I think one way we could describe is to say that it's, I want to earn money here, even though I wouldn't bring my family here. I want to earn money here, even though I don't feel I can really grow here. It's kind of a gig. Yeah, that's a hard question. But if you want to glorify Christ with your life, that's when you're willing to answer. And it's not that there aren't seasons where you're making a transition and you're like, I probably need to go somewhere else. I have to support my family. But that should be your priority. The eternal gain, the spiritual gain, not just financial. Yeah, and it'd be better to be poor and prioritize year, the spiritual health and well-being of your soul and your family than it would be to be rich in that lacking. Well said. Next question, are you hiding, am I hiding behind production or using it to magnify Christ? We've done a podcast on technology. Yeah. And technology is a gift from God, I think. Yeah. We're using it right here. Yeah. Computers, iPads, microphones. How much time, here's where you flesh that out? How much time do I spend tending to technical details versus actually preparing my heart? What's the balance? Like would you say it's 50/50, 80/20, 98/2? I mean, technology can do wonderful things. It can make things clearer, more interesting, more dynamic, more impacting, more beautiful. But this is where I think we get so quickly off track. It can also make the truth of the gospel harder to notice by being distracting or overwhelming. Yeah. Whatever aids we might use, you know, moving visuals behind lyrics. I'm sure someone listening to this is that's what we do at our church, doesn't bother me at all. A great, I can't speak to that. But I do ask the question, is that the most helpful thing? Is that how people for thousands of years have seen the written word? I need something moving behind it to make it really interesting. In that case, I think you're saying, the words aren't that interesting, so I need something behind them that's more interesting. I think it's also catering. Potentially, catering to our need for things to be always moving. Dezir? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a desire. It can make, technology can make this efficiency of God's word more difficult to grasp, or believe. In other words, when the words aren't being projected on there, it's tall as a person. You see, at some conference, it's like, what about when they're just sitting still on in Pager Bible? Are they as impacting? Yeah. Well, yeah, there, if it's the word of God, it is. It can make us, technology can make us more dependent on human devices to move people's hearts in a God-word direction. What if the power goes up? Right. You know, what it, it doesn't mean we can't use technology in a God-honoring, Christ-exalting way, but it's never, God never intends it to be something we hide behind. Yeah. Something we're overly dependent on, or used as the only or primary standard for effective ministry. You know, seeing videos recently of, you know, behind the scenes of churches and how they're calling the video shots. And, you know, I think, wow, wow, like this is the gathering of the church. And I just wonder how challenging it can be for the people running the, this, the cameras and people calling the shots and doing the, to like, here and participate in what's going on. Because it is, you know, the gathering of God's people for the, presentation of the gospel. Yeah. For the benefit of our hearts, the engagement with this spirit. And these are just good questions to ask. - Yeah, definitely. - Paul said, "First Corinthians 2." And this would be kind of similar to our understanding of technology. In Paul's day, they had these orators who were excellent at their execution, the way they spoke. And they traveled around. And the way they spoke is what drew crowds. - Yeah. - So he says, "When I came to you, brothers, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom." That's what it's referring to. For I decided to know nothing among you, except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom. Again, that's what it's referring to. But in demonstration of the spirit and a power so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men or the talents of men or the technologies of men or the devices of men, but in the power of God. - Yeah. - It's not that they're absolutely contradictory. But which are we more dependent on and do we ever hide behind production because we're so afraid of just being seen for who we are and what we are? - Yeah, good. - Lastly, am I mailing it in or marveling at grace? - Mm-hmm. - Oh man. (laughs) I think one of the greatest temptations for those who are in a leadership position in the church musically, especially, but anyway, is to handle the holy things of God in an unholy way, to handle sacred things in a mundane way. So we sing these lyrics every Sunday. ♪ What is our hope in life ♪ ♪ And the Christ alone cry ♪ ♪ What gift of grace is Jesus my Redeemer ♪ ♪ There is no more for heaven now to give ♪ ♪ Hallelujah ♪ ♪ All I have is Christ ♪ ♪ Hallelujah ♪ ♪ Jesus is my life ♪ - You know, we can sing all those words with absolutely zero emotional connection without being affected. You know, we're just thinking, chords right, drum sounding good, technology great. You know, everything's running along with it. You know, what's after this? And you're not even thinking about it. - Yeah, right. - How can we do that? - Yeah. - I mean, I do it. - Yeah. - So what's your mother's asking this question? Am I mailing it in or am I marveling at grace? Am I thinking, how glorious Christ is? So just a few scriptures. So made of four verse 10. A day in your courts is better than 1,000 elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness. That's not a doorkeeper in the Lawrence house is not a place of, you know, a low place. It's the Lawrence house. - You're a doorkeeper. - That's a big deal. But he's saying, I would rather be on the outskirts of what the Lord's doing than right in the center of what the wicked are doing. - Yes. - Do we have that kind of gratefulness and marveling every time we gather? And we're pressing for that. Luke 10, 19 through 20, after the disciples came back from their first missionary journey where they're going out and talking about, you know, who Jesus is and demons are submitting to them and they're healing people on the custom. He says, "Behold, I've given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. Nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this that the spirits are subject to you. But rejoice that your names are written in heaven." You know, I mean, every Sunday, things may not go the way we plan. - Yeah. - It may not be, we may not have the bandwidth we wish we did. You know, projection might go down. You know, we might mess up some transitions. But you know what? Your name's written in heaven. Your name's written in the vocal line. - It's amazing. - And it is amazing. And then lastly, Acts 20, 24, I do not account my life of any value, nor is precious to myself. For only I may finish my course in the ministry that I receive from the Lord Jesus to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. That's what we get to do every week. We testify to the gospel of the grace of God, this grace that has caused the Son of God to take on our flesh, to assume our nature, to live a perfect life for 33 years, so that he could bear our sins, the punishment for all that we've done wrong, be raised by his Father from the dead, ascend to his Father's right hand, where he intercedes and reigns and is one day coming back for the bridey redeemed. That is amazing news. That's what we get to sing about, talk about, pray about here, about every Sunday. And we can't mail that in. We cannot mail that in while we can, but we don't want to. So, let's ask that hard question of ourselves. Right, we don't want to, especially, and here's the good news, especially in this Acts 20, 24 passage. If you want your life to have value, it is in the grace of God. If you want your life to be precious, it is precious in God. And that is amazing, freeing wonderful news. That's our identity that we are in Christ. And that makes what we do a joy, and not a burden. And we can ask all these questions without fear. Yeah. Because we know Jesus has covered all our sins through his blood, through his death for us on the cross. He's as our substitute. We know that he has poured out his Holy Spirit into our hearts, who has shed a broadened heart to the love of God, and also given us power to change. We, Christ lives in us. We can change. We don't have to live with these kinds of sinful attitudes and perspectives for the rest of our lives. They can continually be, we can put them off, put on the attitudes that are contained in Christ himself, which is a miracle and boy, just something to thank God for. Yeah, it is. So, we pray this has been encouragement to you. And thank you again for serving your church, and may we do it in the name of the Lord Jesus for the glory of God, for the good of his people. And for our joy, we pray this has been a means to that end. Thanks for joining us. Thanks.