Hamilton Glass

Real quick, I want to share some news about an exciting event coming up in October, Creative Sprint. Inspired by my own year-long, scull-a-day project, my company, another limited rebellion, has been hosting this fun, free, 30-day challenge each fall to get everyone excited about the benefits of creative practice. So, how does this work? Sign up now at CreativeSprint.co And starting on October 1st, we will email you a Creative Prompt each morning for 30 days. You're invited to interpret the prompt however you like and make something inspired by it. Then share your creations. It's that simple. You'll also get access to our private LinkedIn community where you can get inspired by fellow sprinters from across the globe. So head on over to CreativeSprint.co now to get signed up and discover how a small, daily act of creativity can lead to amazing inspiration and transformation in your life and work. Welcome to episode 21 of foreground background with me Noah Scalen. I'm an artist, author, and corporate creativity consultant, and today I'm interviewing my friend, Hamilton Glass. Hamilton, aka ham, is a rich and Virginia-based artist with a background in architecture and design. Ham is a prolific painter and muralist who is well-known for using his art as a tool for inspiration and healing in the community. In 2020, Ham founded the influential large-scale public art project Mendingwalls, which was created to bring about healing through public art while adding to the conversation of Black Lives Matter. In this hour-long conversation, we discuss the power of public art, shifting career paths, and so much more. I couldn't have made this podcast without my Patreon supporters. The regular writing and reflection I do for my Patreon page has me thinking deeper about the issues that artists and creative folks of all sorts have to contend with. I've been talking with fellow working creatives to get their perspective, and once I started having these conversations, I realized that others could benefit from them as well. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a comment and let me know what resonates with you, and give it a thumbs up or a five-star review wherever you listen to it. And of course, if you're not already a Patreon supporter, I hope you'll check it out at patreon.com/noescalon. First little is $5 a month, you get access to my studio and practice including content available nowhere else. Hey, Ham. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hey, Noah. I've been a minute since we caught up. Yeah, I know. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I always enjoy conversating with you. Yes. No, we've had some great conversations, and so it is my pleasure to be able to record one, which means we need to talk about some things we've already talked about, but I don't mind talking about them again. Yeah, you are a very prolific artist. You've been doing a lot, a lot, a lot for a long time, and I'm always inspired by what you're doing. And I know your backstory about how you got into it, but I'd love to sort of refresh that memory about how you became an artist that you are today. So talk about your childhood. Were you always an artist, were you a kid that made art? Were you somebody who was always doing that stuff? Yeah, it's always crazy to hear someone saying that I've been doing for a long time, because it totally doesn't feel like it, but I guess, yeah, I am, I, in general, man, I have like that traditional kind of, that traditional kind of backstory, which I was just a little kid who love, you know, replicating comic books and anything I could get my hands around, you know, and I always say, I don't know, I always say you always put the hours into what you're passionate about. So I really, honestly, wasn't thinking about being, of course, that young I wasn't thinking about being an artist, but I just was just like enamored with how people could draw something and make it look exactly like the photo. So, you know, growing up, growing up and just really being into art, I used to really challenge myself to go like, why doesn't this look just like this? This is, you know what I mean? And so I put the hours in that way and really just loved, you know, creating art. And then it moved from kind of replicating things to like trying to make my own art. You know, my mother recognized what she says is my talent really early and literally put me in every art class imaginable to the point where I can remember being like 12 or 13 and the Philadelphia Arts Institute with like people who are like 67 years though drawing new models. And that is where I kind of like was like, I'm done with this. This is where this leads them out, you know what I mean? But, you know, I stopped, I stopped drawing and, you know, doing art for a while around like my high school, you know, high school years. I think I like to say was because of that, but, you know, you're just a lot going on around that time. You're like, you're figuring out who you are, what you like and what you want to do really started getting into basketball and stuff like that. And so I've always been into basketball, but you know, started going and having it forward that side. And so fast forward when I came to the graduate high school, I knew I was always creative. So I knew I wanted to do something creative, but I also wanted to do something that, you know, that I can make money. And so, you know, I fell for that stereotype, especially because I didn't have anyone around me, that stereotype of a starving artist. I didn't know any artists, right? None of my friends drew or anything like that and no one owned really other than my mom, they won't foster those things to me. And so, architecture was the closest thing to drawing and doing something creative I could think of. And so I went into architecture and immediately knew that this isn't what I wanted to do, but I again, following those stereotypes and just kind of fell on that trap of doing what you're supposed to do. So I graduated Hampton University with a BR practice architecture for seven or eight years. And it's not that I hate architecture, I just knew like it's this isn't my passion, this isn't what I want to do. So I'll be grudgingly going through five years of architecture school, but then going through another seven years, seven, eight years practicing. It just wasn't my passion. And so between that, like I wanted to say around six years in architecture, I lost my position as an architect because of the recession. And immediately then I kind of lost that that stereotype of like or that worryness of like showing my heart, I in general just kind of like started creating art like and lost that that urge that a urge that most artists have that we have, especially in growing up and getting accustomed to what we want to do in our style of like, Hey, I can't show this, right? I can't show this. It's not perfect. It's not good. I lost it. I was like, I've spent six, seven years of my life into this thing, which I'm not passionate about. I'm just going to like show the world what else I can do and not care about the results. You know what I mean? And so I did that. And that's when things started taking off. I created my first mural here in Richmond in 2009 and immediately after that just kind of hit the ground and started working with organizations like art 180, who does a lot of work with kids and things like that. And I think that's what really make it made it take off for me because I started learning about the art community here in Richmond. I started parking them back to my days in Philadelphia and in understanding what public art in general does. And I just took off flying. I went back into architecture for two more years after that. But even by that time, I think people kind of knew who I was because I started doing projects. So I was just architect by day, artist by night type of person, but all the while getting opportunities to, you know, just do work here in Richmond in about 2012. I was able to go full time. Wow. There's so much in that. I want to go back and sort of pull pieces out of now because that's a great condensed story. And there's so much in it. And I guess you're right in the sense that it only was a little over 10 years. And that's kind of crazy because you really had such a fully formed persona as an artist and as a recognized artist in Richmond at least. And now I think on the national scale, that's really fast, which is really impressive. And you started later in life, which in many ways I started later in life too. And so it's interesting. There's so much parallel to what, but I want to go all the way back to your mom that she was supportive of you being creative is awesome. And I know that's, you know, for a lot of people, that's not common to have their parents support them. I talked a lot of artists about, you know, whether they had an art supporting or not family. Why do you think she was so supportive of you? Did she have experience in art or make art or background connection to it? Or just because she just saw your passion? That's a great question. I honestly just think my mother, I don't know. I think my mother just really enjoyed seeing me being passionate about something. You know, like, I don't know why she didn't, I don't think she had any examples of that either. She just really believed, hey, you do what you do. You know, what you're passionate about for a living. And then that's great. And I can remember, funny story, right? Well, short story, but funny story and kind of one that means a whole lot to me is I can remember, I don't know how old I was, but I can remember, like, not wanting to go to art schools, right? And saying that to my mom and my mom, she didn't like push it on me, but she also said, like, this is a gift from God and gifts from gifts from God are things that are meant to get you through life, right? And so, and I was, when I was young, when I heard that from my mom, like, I probably rolled my eyes when she said that after I turned around or something, you know what I mean? And I remember the year I went full time, and I did very, really well, because I was nervous, everyone's nervous when they go, you know, when they go, they go off on their own. I remember that I remember the end of the year, and I was talking to my mom because we often have long conversations. And I was saying, man, I can't believe, you know, I kind of stepped out on faith in this, and I can't believe I had this type of year, this is my first year, this is great. And she was like, I always told you, like, this gift that you're giving is, is that gift that's supposed to carry you through life. And I'm like, no, I mean, I'm gonna be honest, man, I balled. I should say that to you, because I can remember, I can literally remember when my mother said that to me when I was young. And it was just like, like, I don't know, you're older and you see so much that your parents tell you, you know what I mean? That tell you and you, you know, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, how like the foresight, not that she, I don't even know if she thought I was going to be a full-time artist, but just the fact that she like, re-harkened that, and it was like 100% true at that time. Your mom knows. I mean, if anybody takes anything away from this podcast, your mom knows. That's the, no, that is so moving. And I love that you remember that, because are those moments, I think, as a parent now, like you never know what the thing is that your kid is going to hold on to. And what that little moment was, that that magic thing, and they don't appreciate, you know, what you're telling them, they're too busy doing their thing. And you're, how do you still mean how to do that? I can do it, whatever it is. And yeah, to have her do that, I mean, that's just such a gift that she recognized that and supported that and encouraged that is amazing. And so you were the one who were like, I'm going to be practical and study architecture instead, right? So it wasn't from her. That was just a personal. Yeah, well, also like I have just like my surroundings at the time. So my mother and my father put me in private school, originally from Philadelphia. Most of my friends didn't go to college, man. Honestly, they really did. And I had so much anxiety around going to college, because I knew that I was fortunate. I knew I was fortunate. I was like one of 30 black people in my school, right? I was bust out to this, this Catholic high school in Radner, PA. So I already felt fortunate because of that. I felt fortunate to be going to school and having really close friends just not be able to go to college and things like that. And so that was another reason why, you know, first year. I knew first year that I didn't want to be in architecture school, but I was like, I'm not wasting my mom's money. Like I'm not doing that. And architecture is also one of those majors in which if you kind of quit on it, you've put so many hours, so many credits into that, that you most certainly are going back a year, if not more than that. The deeper you get into it, the worse it is actually. And so I was like, man, my mom is working hard for this. I'm just going to, you know, I do like architecture. There are these creative moments in there. And I just made my projects about those creative moments. But did you just pick it kind of out of a hat because it was a thing you knew about? I mean, did you have a deep connection to architecture? Was it like, this is a job. I asked that because I kind of did that with theater where I was like, I want to, my parents are artists, but they're art teachers. So that's, doesn't button is the path I want to go on. And so I worked in theater here in Richmond as a volunteer in high school. So that seems like a job. Like I didn't have a deep connection at theater. And I went to theater school and studied it for four years and they got out and was like, that's not what I want to do for a job at all. So similarly, you kind of got through the whole education. I did, I got a ton out of it. I love my education. I use it all the time. But like, I wasn't going to commit to that life. And I'm not really that wasn't like who I wasn't my core. Yeah. No, exactly. I think I picked it out of the hat. I mean, I think between the anxiety of school and wanting to be able to be successful when I came out doing something creative that involved drawing. And it sounds funny, but like when you look at movies, the architects are always rich. So no, that's a good point. I mean, to your point of like only having certain examples of artists, right? We all grew up with that. Like the starving artist was such a early meme before memes, right? was just this this idea about what artist's life was like. And it, and it, it is really propagated in our culture. And so yeah, I can see, I mean, it's easy to be like, no, you're not going to do that. Yeah. And you were saying that you're in persona in high school. Sorry to jump back a little bit from college, but you sort of didn't have that artist persona. Like that wasn't who you were deciding to be in high school. So you were kind of like, oh, yeah, not at all. I mean, so one thing my name is Maurice Hamilton Blast, right? Most people don't know that Hamilton is my middle name. If you grew out with me at Philadelphia, you didn't call me Maurice. You called me Reese. And so like people look at, you know, who find me now? Who grew up with me? It was like, who the hell is Hamilton? Like you, you know what I mean? And so Hamilton is somebody I something I embrace. I've always hated the name Hamilton. And this is a part of me that I embraced when I decided to stop worrying about how people, you know, what people think of me in my art, you know, or this isn't ready. It's not perfect yet. And so it was kind of poetic the way I did that. And honestly, I was just like, this is something new. This is something, you know, that I didn't have the courage to do before. I just want to embrace Hamilton. Hamilton kind of sounds like the stereotypical artist name too. And I wasn't trying to be methodical in that matter of fact, when I first started doing things, especially because like my work is really based around street art. I didn't say Hamilton. I said ham. So that's where like my signature comes from like h a m question mark on my website is who's ham.com. I didn't really even address myself as Hamilton. I just said ham because it was kind of like you coming from graffiti culture. It's kind of like a tag, you know what I mean? And so that's how it came and then people go like, why is your name ham ham? And you know, it comes from Hamilton. And so that then it kind of derives off with that. Well, I love that you had this built-in way of sort of having a second persona that you like used your name in that way. It's so interesting because it is great to be able to sort of separate yourself out from yourself and be like, oh, I look at that other character. It's interesting. I don't like my middle name either. And maybe I should do the same thing. I'm gonna. The new version of me is going to show up and you're not going to know why that's great. So you go to school. You study this thing that you're feeling good about, but you're committing to it because you don't want to waste your family's money, which I totally get. And then you get out and you're like, all right, I'm going to do this job and it's not the job you want. And what was the first sort of opportunity then for this to shift over to art? And because the story you gave is so succinct, right? It's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, where was that transition for you? So I mean, I, um, so immediately in losing my job, having that thought like, well, of course, I made, so I made the most art I've ever made during the year I was, I was an employee. But that came from having nothing else to do. So trying to get their job in a recession is tough. Of course, I would wake up like 8 a.m. Look for jobs to like 11 and then just make art all day. And so that's really a gift in a way. I mean, it has no art all day. I know, I know. It was great. And then it was great until like around the end of the year, you're like, okay, we know. We've got to pay the rent. Unemployment's going away. So, um, but, uh, then, so I mean, I, I, I just, again, with, I lost the, I, I gained the courage to start looking for places to show it. Um, and so that's what I started to do. I started to show my work in places and small mom and pop places and things like that. And so, um, I remember I saw this Adam Craigslist, uh, by another artist who was like, hey, I'm showing my work in this, in this, uh, computer shop. And, um, you know, I'm looking for another artist to show with, and I just sent in my stuff. And it was like, I love your work. Uh, you know, we show on this day, blah, blah, blah, come check out the space. I did that. Um, and then I ended up showing my work at ALB Tech, which used to be on Main Street in downtown Richmond and right, you know, almost kind of the heart of the VCU campus, uh, well, near the heart of the VCU campus. And so I did that. And the owner shot Adam love my work so much that he was like, hey, you ever thought about doing a mural? And I was like, it's just like hand to you on a, like, like, it was just, it's crazy. And I was like, I lied. I was like, yeah, man, I do murals all the time. That's how you have to get, for everybody listen, that's how you get your first one always is you have to just lie. Cause no one's giving you a big wall. You got to be like, oh, oh, I can totally, I've done that. Yeah. I might not have to say it all the time, but I definitely was like, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. So, so yeah, I did this mural for him. And to be honest, I just fell in love with the process of creating murals. Like it wasn't even the final product. It was the process. It took me entirely too long. And, you know, the results were okay. But the process of actually creating this, this, this mural, and again, I grew up around murals, right? Like Philly. Oh, Philly is such a mural town. Yeah. Yeah. Richmond was not when you started. I mean, it was, right. Exactly. Yeah. It just was just amazing. And then after that, he loved that one so much. He was like, hey, you can do this one on the back. And so I was just kind of like off to the races after that. I love that you've got it. They're Craigslist Craigslist. That's like another era. Like, I got a show through Craigslist. Yeah. And so the one on the back was, he just let me do what I wanted to do. And it was the recession at that time. And so that's when I did the one that was like a politician holding the gun into his head. And to be honest with you, the reason I did that was because I was frustrated, but I honestly didn't even think about people consuming my artwork. Like that's how new I was. So I know that sounds silly and weird. But, you know, I didn't think about it. I was, he was like, hey, you know, do whatever you want to do. And I'm like, I approached it the way I, you know, a canvas piece. And so I do that when people were like freaked out by it. I kind of was. I was like, it was not shocked. But it was like, oh, yeah, this is in the public, you know, and I wasn't even ashamed of it, right? I also, I started kind of leaning into when that happened, what happened was there were some people who were like, what is this? Especially because Richmond at that time had no murals. So people were like, okay, this is like Balsy. This is Balsy for a place that has murals. Like this going up in Richmond is crazy. And so what happened was some of the residents in that neighborhood, well, actually one of the residents in that neighborhood just found it really inappropriate. And instead of like coming to the business owner and kind of just talking about it, they came to him threatening. And which was, which really upset me. And there are some details about it that I won't get into. But I was more upset at the approach, right? Not at the, I have a disagreement with what you put on the wall. And so that is what made me kind of know what the power that I had. Like people were going to consume this work. And you know, it started awakening me to the accountability you have as the public artist. And because of that approach, I wanted to say something about that approach, like the way they approached us about it. And so we found out, you know, they were threatening to go to the city and have it taken down and all that stuff. We found out they couldn't do that anyway. But I changed it anyway just because of, you know, what was happening. And so I changed it to a censorship mirror. So it was a politician with American flag over there, their mouth. And that was Balsy also. And so that just got me even more attention. And I think that attention just kind of turned into more projects. That's how I met at Tress, at Tress, learned about that project that reached out to me and asked me to be a part of another project that was being commissioned by Altria. So that was like my third mural here in Richmond, which was like huge, like huge huge, it was on Broad Street. And then that was taken down because, I believe, Max's was about to be built for something. So that got even more attention. It was just like this build up of things that was happening. And that made me aware of, you know, people's attachment to public art because people were upset that that was coming down. I wasn't, I was, I was not really upset. I was just kind of like, this is what happens. And, you know, but it also, it, you know, it was just like one big lesson for me of like the power of public art. And it just it, it just kind of like snowballed and caught on fire. And I, and, you know, the thing that we were talking about earlier about it, you know, it happening such a short amount of time, I think, it's hard to replicate that because it, it also, I also rode the wave of mural fever here in Richmond, right? Like it was that that snowball became like a avalanche. Yeah, I mean, you can't, it's like timing and luck are part of everything. And when you share somebody's story, you know, you share it like, here's my, how my journey. And somebody's listening who wants what you have. It's so hard to say, look, you can't, you're never going to, you can't go to architecture school and then get out and do that. Like it doesn't work, but doing what you did. It's just the, the ability to capture what's happened, take those opportunities or ask for opportunities. And then what happens with, with each piece you get, you build and you do more. I mean, that's really the whole story. But, again, it's about timing. So you fell into this perfect moment of like Richmond's mural scene exploding and you're getting a lot of opportunities to do it. Or like you said, you still have to work as an architect for a little while, at least to make a living. When did you shift? Like I assume you make a living from making art now. It seems my understanding. So when did that happen? How did you do that? So that happened in in 2012. I think the end of 2012. Honestly, what, like I used to work for basketball in basketball was getting slow. I worked for basketball for two years and they were getting slow. And it was kind of like another period where they were, I don't know, where they were like second guessing like staff at basketball. And I was just like, well, it's time for me to go for it. Like I've got three projects under my belt. It's kind of now or never. And I've been saying that to my wife for a minute. And you know, it was it was no other time. Like my daughter was here. She was one, I believe. And things, you know, as far as like projects were were going good. And it was also really hard to be an architect and do projects. Like, you know what I mean? Like I was, I was getting opportunities and seeing work get in my way with those opportunities. So it was, it was now or never for me at that moment. And it was like, I'm just going to be holding myself back if I don't, if I just stay in this realm. I'm going to be holding myself back. I'm not dedicating the amount of time to art that I need to for it to be able to grow. It's really hard to go to work from nine to five and then go paint a mural from five to 12 and then wake up. Like, yeah, that's, it's just now or never. And it was the most amazing thing I could have done. I always tell people now who are kind of in that same situation. Think about all that time that you are dedicating to somebody else. And during the prime time hours of the day, right? To where people actually get things done. And so that's what makes that's what makes any business. So why would it not equate to yours? Especially when you're trying to get it off the ground money. And so if you have six months to do that, do it, right? Like if you have six months and see how it evaluates. And then maybe you're, you know, you have to find another job after that. But like, if you have you got to make a little kind of hole first, but then try to just bust through that hole because it's the only way it's going to, you know, the only way it's going to, but it is, it's a risk. And I think what's, it's so scary to take that leap. And I did it with my own business long time ago. I had a good full-time job that paid me well, but I wasn't enjoying it. I was doing freelance work basically as a second full-time job. And I, and I, you know, it's a calculated risk. Like you said, you, you sort of do the math. And you're just like, you know, I'm so busy doing this. I've almost got enough. I might not have to live on, but I like, this is what I like. And I got a lot of it. But at some point, you do have to pull the pull the plug and just be like, all right, this is happening. Like, now I just have to trust. Yeah. That the net's going to catch me. It'll never be the perfect time. Yeah. Yeah. There's always something else that we as human beings are striving for and need more money to do, right? So, you know, knowing that it's never going to be the right time, you've got to make the time. Yeah. Yeah. So now you do this. And what is your, what is your process like as an artist? Like how do you come up with something that you're going to make? Like a lot of times you're getting commissions, I know. And you're making some of your own artwork as well. What's the seed for you? What's the starting place? Yeah. I mean, so that's a load of question for me because I'm in a place right now or not even now. I've been in a place in this last 10 years, which I feel like I've been giving so much to the community, which feels weird to say. But like I have started my career and base my career on solving problems with art and not my problems. Or they are my problems because I'm part of the community. But you know what I mean? Like self-giving of my work. So, and now I'm in I'm at the place where I feel like I'm trying to tackle the question you just ask me. And so, you know, the cliche thing and the stereotypical thing. Not stereotypical, but the normal thing to say is, and I fall in line with it is like, you know, I always create work that, you know, it was just influenced by life. Like what I see around me and what I do. And knowing the power of public art, it's been really easy for me to kind of fall into that because I've had, you know, a lifetime or, you know, a childhood of just seeing that. I kind of replicate what I saw growing up. And I was fortunate enough to grow up in a city where the public art looked like people that, you know, that it resided in the neighborhoods and stuff like that. And so, that is where I kind of flourished. And also, you know, when when Richmond is going through this mural boom, I saw kind of the opposite of that happening at first. I saw just like artists putting up stuff left and right of just their own kind of stuff, which there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, being from a place that didn't seem to have a lot of that, I knew how successful the other stuff was. I knew how successful involving the community and your work was. And so, once I started to do that, that stuff started. Those people and those organizations and just community partners started to see that and gravitate toward me also. And so, that snowball, right, moving in that direction, snowball for me. Now, I'm in a point in my career, which of course, I love public art and want to keep doing it. And also feel like I'm good at that portion of it. But I also want to leave space for me. I don't feel like how we feel like we were just talking about, you know, making the jump and going full-time. Like, I'm trying to make the jump like now and do more work for me, which is hard because, you know, whatever direction you go into whatever career you go, once you put yourself in a lane in that direction, that is the stuff that gravitate towards you. People go like, "Hey, can you do this? Hey, can you do this? Hey, can you do this?" And so, if you want to put yourself in another lane, you have to create that lane, right, for yourself. You also have to say no to some of the stuff that's coming this lane to leave room and time to nurture that other lane that you're trying to get into. And so, it's so important to do that. So, I have to, I'm at the point where I'm like, "Hey man, you can't spend all your time in this lane because you don't, I don't want to be doing 40 mural projects when I'm 50, I'm 40 now." Yeah, yeah. And that's what I've, these last 10 years literally I've been doing there. I've been doing like 40 mural projects a year. That's a lot. That's what I mean, is that I'm saying you're really prolific for having work for 10 years basically as a full, yeah, as a full-time artist for 10 years. Like, you cranked out like a lifetime's worth of work in that time. But I want to back up because I hear you, you know, it's interesting, again, the similarity between us is that architecture and theater design for me, their design fields and design fields are really about, you know, you express yourself creatively, but you're serving a client. And it's always about, you know, somebody else's needs. And to your point, like, your work in many ways has been in that mode. And mine too, like as a designer for a long time. And then, even as an artist, like, always about, you know, issue driven and about other people, you know, the message we're trying to convey and for your, to your experience, you know, working with the community. And I think it is an interesting place of being like, where do you fit into that, right? And I think you did manage to at least develop an aesthetic, right? Your work is very recognizable and it has been, I'd say, aside from this first couple of murals, you really could just, you could see a mural anywhere and say, you know, it's, it's Ham's work. And so you have done that. But you always, like you said, you were doing in service of these other things. And I think that's an interesting mindset for me to sort of think about like, how do I get out of my design head and move to my art head? And that's always the conflict I deal with. So I like, you really spelled it out really well, which was like, hey, you got to do the same thing that that leap that, that take that risk, right? There's some fear there again. And then, and then trust that. And I think, especially when people know you for something, and I felt the same way, you know, I used the last two years in the pandemic to start making work that no one's ever seen from me before. And it was super scary to share it because it didn't look like anything else I'd done. I didn't feel confident about it. I didn't, I was worried. And I was like, who is this? What is it? How do I even talk about it? How does this fit with my statement about who I am in the world? You know, everything about it was just like, you're doing a great job at it, though. Well, and to your point, too, you know, like you talk about, you know, taking advantage of this daytime, but there's also taking advantage of your youth. And you only have but so many years that you can sort of do stuff at a certain level. And sort of after that, what do you do? And so you're hitting 40, I'm hitting 50. And so I'm at that like level, like, man, what am I going to do for that next 10 year? Like, who am I? What do I want to ride on and build from next? Because each of those stages have different capacities and different, you know, sort of conceptual levels, too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so my aesthetic definitely comes from my architecture, which, you know, is a build on of where I came from. And so I think that's less than two, right? Like just building on the things that you've come before you and not doing things drastically different, or you can, or you can take that. I laugh because I think that's what I've just, I could completely do that myself over and over. I mean, I don't know. I think really the power of it comes from consistency, right? Nothing else, even some form of consistency. Yeah. Exactly. Some form of consistency, even if you do go drastically different, kind of like really believing in what you're doing and experimenting in that. And so not having, well, me now trying to build the studio time to be able to do that and try to figure out what that consistency is and what I love. And well, my statement is, and what I want to experiment is, is, is my challenge. And you need, the other thing is like, I'm realizing what I think you need time to do that because you need time, you don't just go in the studio and create something. You go in the studio, create something, make mistakes, say, I hate that, you know what I mean? Go and go a different direction. And that's part of the process, too. And so for me, I have to, you know, put that time in, which is really hard. No, you have to have, we say you have to, yeah, well, oh, yeah, for sure. I was saying, we would say you have to have space to do work, to do creative work. And that space for me, the way we talk about my company is like, you have time is, is, is a form of space, temporal space. You have to have mental space for it, right? And then you have to have physical space for it. So we have your studio, but just because you have your studio, or even just because you have a time, like you also have to have that like time in your, you know, just that mental room to even, if you're just chasing after stuff and just checking boxes, like there's no room for that processing. And I know some of my work, it just takes forever to just, I just have to keep, keep making these little incremental process, you know, moments around it so that it turns into something way further down the line. So, so you love the process of making murals. And that's been sort of mostly, you know, you do some studio work as well. What don't you like about making art? About making art or murals like, oh, yeah, depending, however you want. I guess what don't you like about being an artist as your job? Because you're doing what you're passionate about. You love this. It's not architecture, right? But it contains a lot of other stuff. So, you know what, I mean, what don't you? I mean, just, that's a, that's a hard question. I mean, it's a, it's an easy question, but a hard question, because I'm pretty sure there's a time if, if I start, that'll be a snowball. I mean, it's all about things I hate about. I mean, when, when art becomes a job, that feeling of art being a job is, I dislike that. I hate, I dislike when hate is a strong word. I dislike when clients don't trust me, right? When they, they hire you, because they're like, oh, we love what you did here. And then they don't leave enough room for trust for you to actually do what you do, right? They just want you to replicate you what you've done before, which I think that totally plays into them kind of not respecting you as the designer. They don't get that they're doing that, but at least some of them don't get that they're doing that. But, um, and so, uh, that, that also plays into what I was talking about earlier about me giving so much of myself, um, there are sometimes where even when I'm doing community work, when I'm just like, man, I really wish that I was like taking this in another direction, but I can't, you know, if I can be honest with you, uh, and, you know, I just wanted to have, I think I've spent 10 years, it's, it's loosening up now. Actually, I, let's say seven of these, these 10 years, really trying to please other people, right? Trying to please clients and even in community work, other people, and not really leaning heavy into where me being able to explore where my headspace has been. And what really got me thinking about that, right? That really got me thinking, being in this moment now where I'm kind of like, you know, I really want to start doing more of my work was, you know, when you point to my peace, peace is now, especially my public art now, you know, a lot of people go like, oh, yeah, hand did that. Handed this, handed this, and a lot of that work is very engulfed in the community. Kids might have helped design that, like, you know what I mean? Like, uh, the community helped design it and/or paint it, right? So it's not like totally me. No one else cares though. Like, hand did that, hand led that. You don't have to say, yeah. So I don't think it's even fair to them that, you know, that it said that way sometimes, right? But no, you know, just the nature of how we are, I understand it. I don't, I don't get mad at people who say that. I get where it comes from. It comes to, I led the piece where I, you know, wrote the grand and made it happen and I did all of that stuff. But those people really did have, I pride myself on that, having design and, you know, and stake and blood and sweat in those pieces. And so I don't think that that's naturally fair. And so I, you know, a while ago, probably about three years ago, I started asking myself like, when, when will you be able to kind of say, like, hand did that, right? There are certain pieces in which are all me right. I get commissioned by companies and organizations to do work and, and, you know, corporations to do work. But again, those are in between. I would say, but even those, I mean, because I know I've done some client, you know, corporate work where you essentially can make what you want, but really you can't because there's all kinds of rules around, well, this has got to be acceptable in our, you know, environment and we don't offend anybody and we don't talk about politics or whatever. And so you really, you're putting a version of yourself out there. It looks like your work. You made it 100% yourself. You're putting your style out there. Yeah. Well, you're not putting you like 100% you out there. Unless you make something for you and then they buy that. That's the difference. That's even, yeah. That's even special area in my opinion. So that's what I'm saying. I don't have much of that work. I have a couple of pieces that happen like that, but I don't have much of that work out there. And I think that the latter part of my career needs to be focused on that. And I also fully, you know, I said this earlier, but also fully recognized I can't just jump into that because that's be real. This is how I make money. Well, and you built a very specific career, right? I mean, like that's a different career path that does take time to develop. And I mean, I guess so that's a question too. Then it's like, do you want sort of in this later section, you know, this other section of your art career? Like, do you want to become a gallery, you know, like showing artists on the regular basis and have that selling, you know, canvases or commission, I guess commission stuff on that around. So selling like original work you made as being like a primary form of your life. Now would be the dream. Like that would definitely be the dream. And I'm also not saying that I don't want to do public art. Maybe I do like one or two a year, but the dream would be able to actually be able to kind of like bear myself to the world and have people buy the work that comes right from me and be able to make a living off of that. That would be amazing. And I think that is that's a really good goal to have because I think, you know, that's where the stereotype comes from, right? Because in general, I think the traditional kind of path is like you graduate from art school and then you just do you and everyone buys your work. Which is like, honestly, some tiny percentage, like not even 1% of kids that come out of art school have that experience. Exactly. I'm guessing. And that's where the starving artist. Yeah. Well, do you feel like you missed out on anything by not going to sort of a formal art education or, you know, going for to grad school for artists? No, not at all. Not at all. I think architecture, I always say that if I woke up in 1999 and I woke up and it was like time to choose what major architecture. Still do it. It really architecture was a really hard major for me. And was a just full of problem solving. Also, going into architecture, the architecture feel just taught me business in general. And I don't care how good you are as an artist if you don't know business, you're not going to make it. And that's what any any career, like I don't care how good of a any and that's why they say you can be anything because you literally can. I believe that you can be anything you want to be, but you need to know the business of that. That's that's what makes you thrive as that. And so you're point about the sort of starving artist is that they generally don't teach any business in art school. So like, whereas in a field like architecture, where you're like, this is part of the job is to run a business doing it or to be a, if I guess a freelance architect doing it, but you have to understand the business piece. And so yeah, absolutely, you got to you got that skill set through your education. Yeah, absolutely. Already that further ahead in the game. And I enjoy now, you know, talking to young artists about work and they teach me a lot about, you know, stuff they've learned in school and stuff like that. And a lot of this stuff, I, you know, can just explore in general. I think we all have Google at our fingertips. So. And then also, you know, Instagram is great too because I get to see what is happening around the world with, you know, my peers and modern artists today. So I mean, I honestly don't, I don't want to, I go as far as say like, you don't need to go to art school. I think everyone's past, no one's past is linear. So, you know, someone else might get a ton more out of that. But I, it's far, I have no regret in my path. So, I mean, how has COVID affected your work? Because I feel like every artist, you know, had opportunities either go away or change in these last two years. And as a, you know, muralist, the benefit, I guess, is you're obviously working outdoors. And so, I mean, some of that work could keep going on. But how did, how did that affect you? So you're making a living, making art. And I guess, maybe break it down a little bit too. Like what percentage comes from murals versus something else for you? Yeah. That's a hard thing to say. I would say, I'm heavy on the mural side though. I mean, if I had to guess, I would say 80% of my income comes from murals. But that also involves a lot. It's not, it's not just when I say it comes from murals, I don't mean me going to a job, painting a mural. I also mean like, you know, creating projects, writing grants, going to talk about, talk to students about the work and stuff like that. There's a whole lot of a host of things that comes with doing public art in general. And some of those bring in income. And some of those bring in the income, yeah. Over the last three years, you know, when I've been started starting this crusade of, you know, trying to sell my own work, I would say, it's definitely going up now. It's around 20% where I'm starting to sell my own work of selling my own work. And I, I'm sorry, I forgot. Oh, I just said how did COVID affect what you were doing? Oh, COVID. So the thing about COVID, the thing about me in general is I, I am, I react to what's happening around. And as a public artist, that's really easy to do, right? I am someone who, you know, the second we shut down. And I like, all my projects was like, nope, cancel, nope, cancel, nope, cancel, right? I'm just sitting there and I'm not thinking about money. Well, maybe I am a little bit, but I'm, I'm sitting there like, wait, so, you know, I had all this stuff on the books, and we were supposed to do all these community engagement projects. And now I'm just stuck at home, not being creative at all. And, and, and I started, again, using Instagram, looking at other people, doing things and people putting out coloring sheets and things like that. And I'm like, we can do this virtual. I just, I just love healing with art. Like I love using art and what unconventional ways and ways people don't normally do it. And so I created the all in together project. And the idea really came from a project that I did with Matt, two or three years prior, with another high school. And we, we didn't do it virtually. We did it in person where we kind of, you know, cut up these, this picture. And I was like, what if that picture was the coloring sheets? And they could come together and things like that. And so I call Matt lively and talk to him about it. He was like, yeah, that sounds great. Actually probably wrote his eyes and it was like another project. I'm enjoying being home. And so we kicked that off and that happened. And then, you know, with George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd happening and seeing all the tags all over the buildings and knowing that those tags were just going to get kind of like white washed and power washed literally. And wondering that idea came from wondering like, how can we continue the voices from these tags? Because these tags mean that people feel unheard, right? There are people who are in the streets right now like, how can we do that? And then that idea and evolved into, you know, kind of emulating what society needed to do. And from my talk with, with Matt. And so, you know, I just, what I've learned about myself is just my natural instinct is to heal with art. And so, honestly, I boom doing COVID. To be honest, I did. But it wasn't intentional. It wasn't like, oh, I've got to like make this new way of living because everyone's at home. I didn't do that. It was it was more so like, there's a problem, right? And I know art being creative in general creativity thrives with anything. It thrives with problems with situations, right? Because we have to think about it and be creative about the way we address them, right? Because no one person is the same. We all need to, yeah, no pun intended to have some empathy about it, right? We all need to have, uh, be able to connect. And creativity is one way in which I feel like everyone connects, whether you just like it or like it. If it makes you feel something about it, creativity is something that we all gravitate towards. I love that, yeah, that that really COVID became this opportunity for you to do some projects that you wouldn't have done. And that's turned into a whole new worldview, really? I mean, you got a, a new organization coming out of it. You have a nonprofit that you're developing. I mean, so yeah, it's amazing. So this is the question I ask everybody. Do you feel successful? Yes. On a level. Yeah. I feel, I mean, I, I don't successful doesn't feel this is the first time I've actually thought about it like this. Successful doesn't feel like a destination. You know, if it's like today, I'm successful. Like, and, and I'm, you know, going back to that goal of, you know, the next level of hemalton glass or where I want the next level of hemalton glass is, I'm not successful there yet. You know, like, and so it just doesn't feel like a destination. Am I proud of myself and where I've, what I've accomplished and where, you know, I've gone? Yeah. Um, I am, I'm proud. I, I also feel like I need to keep my foot on the pedal. Um, I feel like I have not, I don't know if I'll ever feel like, um, like accomplished. I put my chest up for all those who were just listening to this, but like, if I'll ever feel accomplished, like, I feel like I've done things and those things were good. I feel like everyone's things and those things are good. But I always, I, hopefully I always have a goal that I'm reaching for. Um, my wife tells me often that I need to be more mindful and slow down and, and I do, she's right. She's 100% right. Like, I'm not. I, without her, I can honestly say this, without her, I would be acting like this is year number one. And I have for like a long time. Like, this is, this, this, I'm, I'm just, so for the people who, you know, who are in the beginning of starting something and our family are asking that question of themselves, like, you know, when do you kind of like ease up and go like, ah, I'm never, like, never feels like the, like, this is like bills don't stop coming. You know, you don't, you don't really feel like that. I'm always worried about that stuff. Um, but I think it is healthy to be able to kind of sit back and, um, be able to assess yourself as, have done something and be proud of yourself. So I, I am there. I'm very proud of myself. Um, but for me, if it was up to my own psyche, that only brings more pressure. It's like, okay, well, people have seen you do this. Are you just going to fall off the earth this, this, this year, this week or, you know, whenever it is. But I've, I'm learning to give myself grace and to, to be able to sit down and take breaks and things like that. Um, but I, I do feel like I have been successful. Um, but it just doesn't feel like a destination. Yeah. All right. I love to have a wife who is a partner that can remind you to feel good about the things you've done and take a breather and not keep the pedal to the metal the whole time. Yeah. I, I surely would be burnt out without Takeda. Um, she, I mean, she, she works with me every day now. It's like we work together now. Um, I mean, we've always worked together. That's the real husband and wife. Uh, she's always helped me in working with art 180. That's, we've always been kind of in the field. And she was also an architect. I met her and architecture. Yeah, we met in, in a firm. Um, but, uh, we've always worked together. But now she's like full-time working with me. Yeah, she, she really, I think I would, I would be burnt out with her, her right now. I definitely feel myself getting older like it hits you. Uh, and, um, she is trying to make sure I, I don't feel and I don't burn out. And, uh, and, you know, when, when I first started, everything was the yes. Um, and without her, everything would still be a yes. I know that mindset. I, I suffer from it as well. Yeah. Yeah. So what advice would you give people who want to become, you know, a full-time artist like you? Yeah. I think the number one thing is consistency. That's it. I think that snowball rule that we were talking about earlier applies with everything. Um, but you have to be consistent. And you have to be focused. And what I mean by focus, especially when it pertains to like art and creativity, right? We as artists can do a lot of things. We can, we can design t-shirts. We can do graphic design. We can paint, you know, some of us can paint murals, some of us can paint canvas or some of us can stitch. We can do a lot of things. And I think that it's really hard to focus and focus and do the thing that you want or that you're in the mode to do at that moment consistently first. And then once you master that thing, people will ask you to do the other things. They'll actually actually do stuff that you can't do. If that makes any sense. Um, and once I focused, because I was trying to do everything at first, but once I focused and said, all right, public art murals, I love this process. I could do this all day, all night, just in love with it. Um, and once I focused and did that, that's when that snow wall started. Um, and I think narrowing down and staying focused on that one thing that you want to do. And I promise those opportunities to do those other things will evolve into it. And so that's, that's my advice. That's great advice. Awesome. Thank you so much, Ham. It's been an absolute delight to talk to you. No problem. Thank you. Thanks for listening to foreground background with me, Noah Scalen. If you want to know more about Hamilton Glass, check out his site, whosham.com, or on Instagram @hamglass, both of which can be found in the show notes. If you want to help me make more things like this show, please consider becoming one of my Patreon supporters at patreon.com/ Noah Scalen. And of course, please rate and review this podcast wherever you found it. The show is edited by Kelsey Devorek. Thank you, Kelsey. And the music used on this episode is Flying High 2019 Hip Hop Remix by Jantracks. And finally, a special thanks to all of my Patreon supporters. I want to take one final moment to personally welcome my latest team art members who joined during my February promotion and will be getting a special print that's available nowhere else. So welcome, Suzanne, Emily Tracy, Alan Jacelle, Phil, Gwen, Rick, Sean, Addy, Christine, Brandy, and Francis. You all rock.