Hall of Fame Podcaster Dave Jackson ("The School of Podcasting")!

The podcast that you're listening to is being presented to you with the cooperation of the S.J. Network. If you're a person who needs a publicist and you want to appear on podcasts, contact Steven Joyner at s-j-network.com. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to the season seven finale of Too Many Podcasts. Before we get to meet today's guest, Dave Jackson of the School of Podcasting. All of us at the Sharper Shallay would like to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. And we hope you've enjoyed this season. We've got more to interviews with podcasters, entertainers, and fascinating people in season eight. So, remember to listen to us on your favorite podcasting app. Or answer pollution.com. And please leave us a nice review or share the episodes on social media. But let's not talk about the bad jokes, okay? Prices may vary in Hawaii and Alaska. Uh-oh. Looks like I used the wrong script again. Attention! Rebels of the show pollution. Today's podcast is brought to you by Audible. We would like to give you a free audiobook download and 30-day free trial, simply by heading to www.audibletrial.com/shurper. There are over 180,000 titles of audiobooks and podcasts, including this one, to choose from for your iPhone, Android, Kindle, or MP3 player. And now, the one and only Mr. Bruce will lead you into the Sharper Shallay. As a reminder, the elevator does not make it to the top floor. And the same can be said for the Sharper. Welcome to too many podcasts. The podcast about podcasts. Now, podcasting from the Sharper Shallay on Mount Podcastia. Here's your host, Jim, the podcast Sherpa. Hello there, Rebels of the Sherpa Lucian, and welcome to too many podcasts. The podcast about podcasts and so much more. If you've never met me before, I'm Jim, the podcast Sherpa. Hello, I will be your guide through Mount Podcastia, telling you a little something about some of the podcasts that you might want to check out, if you've never heard some before. And maybe if you've heard some before, you want to hear some more, we can do that to you. I've got loads of guests that come on the show and talk about their show, and then make recommendations to and so do I. So you'll have plenty when this makes them noise. You will have plenty by the time this episode is over. Wow, we're good place to start, right? Today is actually our season seven finale. And it's a really good one largely in part to my guest today. Who's our guest today, Sherpa? If you haven't heard of him, he is a member of the podcasting hall of fame. He has been podcasting since 2005 with his very own school of podcasting. So I know a lot of you are listening to the show and you go, I can do what that idiot's doing. Yeah, well, of course you can. Anybody can do what this idiot's doing. That was a big secret, right? But anyway, if you listen to his podcast, you learn how to do it the right way. Very important. His name is Dave Jackson and we had a lot of fun talking. I got to get to know him a little bit. And I was really fascinated by his opinions about podcasts and some of the things that he likes and things that we should be doing. And I was really in a lot of a agreement with what he said. I didn't think there was much that I really disagreed with him on. And I'm saying that straight from the heart. So it was good to speak to someone of like mine who was very successful with his podcast. So hopefully that'll rub off on me. But of course, that'll be up to you guys, the listeners to well, we'll talk about that later. Okay, let's get to my interview with Dave Jackson, the host and creator of the School of Podcasting. School's in session of other rebels. We are in the education room in the Sherpa Shale and my guest today is a mentor, a coach, a hall of fame podcaster. And he is the host and creator of the School of Podcasting. If you don't know his name by now, I will tell you right now. Mr. Dave Jackson is with us via video on too many podcasts. Since 2005, he's been the host of the School of Podcasting and we're here to get to know him a little bit. Welcome to the show Dave. Jim, thanks for having me. Look at you are. You said you where you grew up not too far away from where Devo came from. Yeah, Devo and LeBron James put us on the map. Akron, Ohio used to be the rubber capital back in the days when I was a young lad. But now the only thing that's growing here is the University of Akron. It keeps taking over the old abandoned buildings and turning them into dorms and that each or so. So you never did any early episodes with like plant holders on your head or anything? No, no, no, no yellow jumpsuits, nothing like that. So I'm a musician but I never did that kind of stuff. So beforehand, you were actually into like technology, back in the even like the 90s and stuff like that. You used to teach people how to use the internet? Yeah, I started off. My original degree was an electronic engineering and I was a copier technician and I found out fairly quickly that I'm not a good copier technician. I mean, I'm okay, but I have a horrible sense of geography in general. I get like, when GPS came along, I was like, well, this is the best because I would be trying to get to somebody's place on to get lost. And the the guy that hired me said, look, we've got a problem. You know, we have we have this great copier, you know, equipment. We've got a great sale staff, but they're we have a customer base that's breaking it. And he said, so we're going to send you out to set up the equipment and then teach them how to run the equipment. But more importantly, how not to run the equipment because we have a lot of people throwing paper clips and stuff from the copier. And that just led to do you know anything about computers? And I was like, well, use one when I got my degree and that led to me teaching a lot of Microsoft Office and QuickBooks and that led to time management and customer service. And for a while, I was I traveled around and taught these big giant scanners about the size of your bed. And I'm not making that up to the newspaper industry because what would they would take all these coupons and stuff and lay them on the scanner, scan them in once. And then I had the software that I could say, take that coupon and put it on b7, take this one and that. So I did that. So I've yeah, but back in the day, I was teaching people how to send email because they didn't know what it was. How what the internet was back in the days of dog pile and net scape. And oh, I forget all the other ones hotpot was another. This is all before Google. And if you say the phrase before Google to somebody who's like, 28th or like, what do you mean before Google? But yeah, so I've always been a fan of technology. And so in podcasting came along. I really saw that it just scratches every inch I have. It's it's kind of geeky. You can be as creative as you want. And I get to help people on a global, you know, platform. And I was like my very first podcast was four musicians. And I'm in the middle of cow town, Ohio, like I'm in Magador. And I get a voicemail from a guy in Nuremberg, Germany. And I went, wait, what? Like I'm in the basement. There's some guy on the other side of the planet that not only found my show, but likes it. And I just went, all right, give me a flag. I am here planting it in, you know, I, I, I claim podcast as my thing here. So, and I've been doing it ever since and seen a lot of things come and go along the way, but that's a lot of fun. When you first started, this was like in me early 2000s when you started doing podcasting. Yeah, 2005. Really, depending on who you talk to, most people like the, like what we call OGs, that's 2004. I came in April, 2005 is when I started podcasting and then probably by, let's see, that was April, probably may, probably about a month later. When I joined, I launched the School of Podcasting because it was funny because back then you'd ask somebody, you know, do you listen to podcasts? And of course, everybody said, what's a podcast? And then you'd explain what it was. And they'd go, yeah, I don't do that. So, you know, the early days we had, the first wave was all the tech shows because you had to be kind of a geek to listen to one. And then there were a bunch of language shows that kind of came up and then the comedians, the Mark Marins. And then eventually you had serial and the true crime thing. And now I think the next wave's going to be more like Brazil right now is getting ready to just explode. There are some shows in Brazil that are just going blockers. So we're getting the Spanish speaking, you know, people that are like, oh, I thought it was the only person that kind of felt this way. And this person is talking about this. So there'll be more waves coming as we go along. But yeah, it's been a lot of fun watching it kind of progress along the years. What were your early feelings when you first started doing this? Will you probably like, is this going to catch on? Did you think that, am I going to be talking to myself? Did you kind of get that kind of doubt? Well, it was just something where I remember when I uploaded my first episode to, I forget how I peaceed part of your bubble gum and paper clicked it. And I remember I uploaded and there was this really archaic software and I put the feed in. And all of a sudden I saw the download that just upload come down and I went, oh, oh, I get how this. And as soon as the light bulb came on, I went, this could be huge. And so at the time, everybody was saying the membership sites are going to be the next big thing. And I had a friend come back from this technique goes, hey, I just, you know, at the time again, dating myself, he said, Do you know how you kind of miss the MySpace boat? You know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, don't rub it in. He goes, I'm here to tell you the next big thing is gonna be podcasting. And so when I kind of piece this part of it together, I was like, huh, and I just seen so many things that they'd go, this is gonna be the next big thing. And it'd be like, huh, I wonder if I should do anything, and then it would become the next big thing. And I was like, oh, I should have jumped on that. And so I had just seen that happen so many times. And here was a friend of mine that I really trusted said, hey, podcasting is gonna be the next big thing. The light bulb comes on for me. And I'm like, all right, I'm jumping in on this one. And you know, and like I said, over the years, I've just seen it get bigger and bigger and bigger. And I was like, okay, I'm glad I didn't sit on the sidelines. I actually jumped in on this one. And I'm sure a lot of other people look glad that you did that as well. Yeah, yeah, it's been fun. You know, it's funny. We actually have something in common because a few years back, I was teaching an adult ed course about how to use the internet, how to use Microsoft Word and Excel and everything like that. And it's funny when, especially I think when you're teaching someone who's much older and you try not to lose your patience with them like, okay, click here. No, no, don't click here. Don't click here. Just click right here. And you got to kind of learn to kind of curve that so they don't feel a little too intimidated when you're doing that. Yeah, it's one of those things where you try to find something that they understand. And the biggest thing is I always have to tell people it's not radio, it's not live. So when you say something wrong, it's not like it goes out to a ton of people. You know, I remember once I was teaching a PowerPoint class and a woman came in and before it even started the class, she was crying. And I was like, okay, this is new. I've never had a student crying class. And she's like, I don't know why they're making me take this class. I don't want to take it, I don't understand computers. I'm just gonna break it and blah, blah, blah. And I said, do you know how to play solitaire? And she's like, yeah, I played all the time with my grandkids. I'm like, good, come here. So I showed her how to play solitaire on a PC. And I said, there you go. You have mouse skills. And she goes, what are mouse skills? And I go, you can make the mouse go where you want it. She goes, okay. And I go, so in class, I'm gonna tell you to click on stuff. And when I say click on that, just click on it. I said, you can't really break it. And so with podcasting, I've gone into people and they're like, I don't get it. What is it? And I was like, well, do you understand what radio it's? They're like, yeah, you listen to the stuff over the speakers. Yeah, great. And sometimes if I'll go like, do you know, do you have a VCR? And they'd be like, yeah, I'm like, you know how you can like, take something and listen to it later. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, that's kind of what podcasting is. It's a radio show that you can listen to whenever you want. So I'm taking things that they already know and connecting it. And then if they have a phone, if I'm lucky enough, if it's an older person with an actual smartphone, I'll be like, can I borrow your phone for a second? And they'd be like, great. And if it's, especially if it's an iPhone, it's great. 'Cause you know, they have that Apple podcast is pre-loaded. And I'll be like, what's one of your hobbies? And say gardening. I'm like, great, gardening podcast. There's here's three of these. You want to try one of these and they're like, great. Well, how much is it? I don't want to like go, no, no. Here's, you know, let me turn this on. Okay, now it's only going to download it for a day and what. And you just take him by the hand. And what's funny is I remember when I got inducted into the Hall of Fame, I was at a family picnic. And I walk into my one cousins like, oh, there's Mr. Hall of Fame. And I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And he goes, all right, I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask. And I go, what's going on? He goes, he's been talking about this for years. What's a podcast? And I said to you have a phone. He's like, yeah, I got an iPhone. I go, come here. And literally every cousin's like, hold on, hold on, he's going to explain it. Everybody gather around. So I always try. And if somebody does that, the last thing you want to do is like, you don't know what podcasting is. No, no, they don't. It's, you know, I didn't. We all learn it different times and different things like that. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. And especially when you then, I've done this in the past where I will put like a Facebook post. And it's like, tell me what your hobby is. And I'll find a podcast for you kind of like you do with the Sherpa. And so I did that once on international podcast day. And it's funny because it's hard to find a subject that there is no podcast for. I mean, Frisbee golf used to be my like funny example. And finally, somebody said, you do know there is a Frisbee golf show. And I'm like, really? So it's, if you've got a hobby or a TV show or something you're interested in, there's probably a podcast for it. There's a podcast that's out, which I found, I think so far it's the most unusual one that I've come across. It's called the empty bowl. And it's meditative music while the host is talking about cereal. Okay. That's up there. The only thing I would have close to that is the chameleon breeder. And I was like, the, the what is the chameleon breeder and I was like, okay, I think you win. But his whole thing, I had him on my show and he makes cages for chameleons. So those are those little things that, you know, change colors, et cetera, et cetera. And he said, it was interesting because this audience said, you know, we could buy these cages, you know, overseas and they would be cheaper. But because you've given us so much value, we want to buy them from you and his manufacture, the guy that he had set up to make these cages is like, can you kind of like tone it down on the cage thing? Because I, we can't keep up. And he was going to do that. I said, my friend, you have proof of concept. You either get another manufacturer or add a second one. I go, this is working great. So I think it changed the name. I think it's not like the chameleon champion or something like that. But that was really with her, yeah. Living with herpes is another one that I was like, there's, there's a niche one. And it's, that's another classic example of people going, I thought I was the only one that felt this way. Cause you can't be like it, you know, Thanksgiving dinner and like, hey, Uncle Steve, if you've ever had the clap, you know, usually not something that you just talk about with everybody. And so I interviewed her. She said, yeah, she has like a double secret probation Facebook group because these people, like, they're all finding different treatments and, you know, there's only again, they kind of feel awkward talking about it with everybody. So she's built this whole community. And when people see that title, you don't have to guess what that shows about. And they're like, oh my gosh, that's me. So that to me is one of the classics. If you can come up with a title or a description, then when people read it, they go, oh, wow. That this, this person, this host is talking to me. What's that? You get that built in audience. You're really kind of off to the races. I guess as long as you have enough content to, well, that's it. It's some people get kind of caught up and I understand it. I just did an episode about taking breaks. And I said, don't get caught up on, I have to put a show out every, you know, Wednesday or whatever like that. I said, I would rather have a late show that was good than an on time show that was like, well, I don't know what we're going to talk about, but I got 45 minutes to kill. So hey, let's talk about, you know, French toast recipes and what my cat did to my couch. And you're like, I thought this was a movie review show. You know, so it's more about consistency of content than it is consistency of schedule. If you can do both, that's the goal, but you know, life happens sometimes and things like that. So it's funny because I think a lot of people, well, I mean, especially, you know, we're doing this for a while. I mean, I'm really going into my third year doing this and you're, you know, you're 16 years. Yeah. I think that was almost considered like the wild, wild west. There's still rules that you have to follow to make it work. Well, yeah, and it, it's kind of goes back to every single, especially if you're doing this to generate some income or depending on me, because some people just want to do it because they want to get the message out in the world and some people want to do it to be seen as a, you know, an expert or things like that. But if you're actually trying to generate money, I'm actually working with a church right now and I said, I said, don't get weird. I said, but I'm going to kind of run your church like a business and like, what do you mean? I said, well, I said, when you have a business, your product typically solves a problem or will save people time. And I go, would you disagree with Adam? I pick up any product. You know what I mean? I go, if it's a nose trimmer, you're solving a problem. That is that you got hair grown out of your nose and I said, so I said, so we have to figure out who our target audience is and what they need. So what if we've got, you know, that's why you see churches will have seminars on how to manage your money and maybe alcoholics anonymous and they're finding the pain points in their community and solving that. And so, you know, there are no rules like I just listened to a podcast and for four minutes, they just were yucking it up with each other and they never introduced what the show was about and they never said what the episode was about and I said, that doesn't work in today's society. I don't think so, you know, that's a little long to tooth and there was an article that came out that said humans have the attention span of a goldfish and I did a deep dive into that and it turns out that's not actually true, but it was repeated so many times that people quoted all the time and it's like, no, it's not true. But I think what has really been honed in on is people now have the ability to spot something that's going to waste their time much better than they used to. And so, as I was listening to this show and it was three minutes in, I had no idea what I was listening to yet, I just went, no, sorry, there's something that when I hear somebody say, well, I didn't know what we're going to talk about, but Thursday, stop because that person is going to waste 45 minutes of your time. So there's, there's that, you know, you can't get away with using the build-in laptop on your, you know, your microphone on your laptop, that's not going to work because many have to spend $1,000 on equipment, but, you know, there are, you know, probably, probably about two to 300,000 active podcasts, there are like four million out there, but 300,000 that are actually producing. it. And so you got a little bit of competition and the whole bit where, you know, it sounds like your microphones in the next state. That's just not going to cut it anymore. You know, I always tell people, pretend you're Oprah, you know, if you have four, you know, if you have you and two co-hosts, it's like, you get a microphone, you get a microphone, you get a microphone. But, but then there is, like you said, there's no rules. Well, if it's a hobby, and I'm just doing it, you know, I say the, I had a guy come to me once and he said, I wanted to do a podcast about comic books. And I said, okay. And he goes, I know what you're thinking. There's already about two billion podcasts about comic books. And they go, well, the thought did cross my mind. And he goes, look, I just know my family is like, we don't want to talk about Batman anymore. He goes, I just, you go find somebody else to talk about Batman. We've, we've had it. And so I was kind of joke and say, you know, if your goal is to talk about Batman and the basement, and you get a bunch of people who find your podcasts, who want to talk about Batman and the basement. And then that's your whole goal. Congratulations. You have a very successful podcast because you're talking about Batman and the basement. It's not always about money and, and you know, this and that. Sometimes it's just, I want to find other people that think the way I do. And all of a sudden, I don't feel alone because, oh my gosh, I thought I was the only person that thought, you know, Batman could beat up Superman. And this guy does too or whatever it is. So, yeah. So there are, I don't know if I would call them rules. So general, best practices, I guess, that we could, could say. You've actually, we, what you were just saying, you really struck a chord with me when you were talking about listening to podcasts because I do the exact same thing. It's like, what is your name? What's the name of the show? What is this going to be about if I'm going to listen? And that's, that's it. I agree with your point. A thousand percent that people's time is at a premium. So if they're going to listen to something, they don't want to hear just two guys is, and the one guy said something about he was sitting at home watching a TV in a Darryl Earnhardt shirt. And his co-host is like, right. I'm like, okay, for me on the outside, I don't know why that's funny. That's the curse of knowledge because these guys know each other and they're laughing. But I'm like, me, and it really isn't hard. It's just like, hey, welcome to the blah, blah, blah show where we blah, blah, blah. I'm your host, yada, yada, yada. And on today's show, we're going to talk about this. That's it. That takes like 15 seconds. And that person can then decide, okay, do I want to listen to this or not? You know, it's a table of contents. I have a friend of mine. He's a co-host on a show I do called the podcast review show. And his name is Eric K. Johnson. He's got like 30 years in radio. And he says, nobody gets on a bus without knowing where it's going. And especially now in Apple podcast, they used to have a big subscribe button. And they have swapped it out. You still have a button now. It's follow, but the big button is listen. And so people are not going to click that listen button and listen to the first few seconds to figure out, do I want to keep listening to this or not? And if it's, you know, nothing, but kind of stuff. And you're like, I don't know. That's where when people love to pull clips, like of an interviewer, things like that, they go, you got to be careful. You got to set that clip up. Like on today's show, we talked to so and so. And here's a clip. They didn't. They just said, welcome to the show. And here's a clip. And I'm like, is that the host? Is that, I don't know what's going on? And it was just kind of weird. So yeah, that that first, you know, 30 seconds to a minute, put a little thought into that. I was listening to one, uh, this one person wanted to be on my show. I never got back to him. And I think it was about anime. This was a while back. And he was talking about a character. And he said, Oh, wait, let me check a minute and a half of silence, Dave. I guess what he was doing. Yeah, I, uh, I think my favorite was I hit play on a podcast. And it's like, welcome to the blah, blah, blah show. Um, you know, Jim and I'm Steve. And then Jim and Steve go. So did you want to talk about the thing at the times? And again, like, Jim, I don't know. I think we're going to do the tribute thing. But we could do that. Oh, do you want to start with that? And I was like, now, this is a great conversation to have before you press record. It was like, and the whole time I'm like, am I getting punk? This is not a real podcast. Is it? So, yeah, that's the, that's another one I always hear a lot that, again, for me, the best practice is edit, you know, because I'll hear people like, Hey, hold on a second, uh, the UPS guys here. And then you'll hear them, you know, in the background. Hey, thanks. You know, I'm like, okay, cut that out. And, and they're like, Oh, I'm just keeping it real. I'm like, no, you're, what you're doing is being real boring. You know, it's really boring. And I was like, so if I understand this right, there are book editors, newspaper editors, TV editors, movie editors, but no, everything out of your mouth is just pure gold. I was like, okay, do you say so? So, and that to me, it goes back to what we're talking about. You know, the, the one thing we always we add more of is time. And you just wasted two minutes while listening to you, you know, let the dog out. I'm like, cut that out. I listen to a show once the guy started off. First of all, I started off with an apology. That's not a great way to start the show. Hey, I know I haven't been here for two months because you got to realize that while that makes sense now in another month from now, nobody's going to know you were gone because it's just your back catalog. And he was, I looked up, I was like, you got to be kid of 10 seconds in. His dog comes in and it's super. It must have been a great thing or something. Just just lapping up some stuff. And he's like, Oh, yeah, you know, you're my dog in the background. I'm like, yeah, you could hit stop. You're, you know, you're only eight seconds into the show, maybe put phyto in the other room or something like that. But it's, you know, so that's, that's where some people like, ah, it's just a podcast. And I'm like, well, okay, they're, you know, there are times when it is just a podcast. No, if, if you can't hit your schedule because, you know, you've got chemotherapy. Okay, that's just a podcast. But if you're really trying to put yourself out as an expert, you know, maybe put, uh, kujo in the next room. So he doesn't, you know, interrupt so much. We're edited out, you know, life's gonna happen. Sure. And I, and I'm talking about editing too. Like we were saying early before we started recording that I know some podcasters that, no, I just record it and I just put it out there. But I think of it like, think of the TV shows and the movies that you enjoy watching. Do you really want to see the cameraman and the boom mic hanging in the middle of a dramatic scene? It kind of takes away that magic, you know, you're giving somebody, you know, a little package there, you know, so that something that they want to remember, they don't want to hear you going 10 minutes ago, uh, like you said, oh, what are we going to talk about today? No. Just get to the point. Or there have been times when I've interviewed somebody and I'll be like, I'll ask them a question. And it's a yes or no question, which in theory is not a great practice anyway. You kind of want to get them to tell a story. And there was no story to tell. And when I went back later, I was like, yeah, I asked this question. Their answer didn't deliver any value to my audience. And I cut it out. It's like, it's really not that hard. So I do the same thing too. I'm feeling a lot less guilty now, Dave. Thank you. No. And nine times out of it, at least for me, the people I've talked to, because we're all worried about, well, what if the guest comes back and listeners this and they noticed that like I talked to them for an hour and the interview is only 20 minutes. The people I talked to, I know I typically don't go back and listen because, well, I'm here now. I don't need to listen. I trust that you're not going to cut my words in two sentences that I never said. You know, in today's episode, you'll hear how Dave beats his life because you cut my words up and put them back into place. I'm like, nah, I'm pretty sure you're not going to do that. You know, we tend to overthink a lot of stuff. I think in podcasting. So I've only gotten flack from one guest who hired the show and they said, oh, you turned our interview into a PT 13 interview. I said, yeah, what's my show? So that's what there you go. Yeah, absolutely. So how did you decide upon this full of podcasting? Was it just all the experience that you'd been through or a good guide for everybody? Well, it was a case where I had been at my, I started off again as a copier technician. I'd been with that company for 10 years and I'd done all sorts of corporate training and I won employee of the year. And then they let me go. I got into a new position and halfway through rolling out this software. One of the border directors said, I don't want to use the software. And it created this weird kind of house of card situation where everybody said, well, if he doesn't have to use the software, why do I have to use the software? And all of a sudden, the slowly, the whole company decided, we're not using the software. And I'm like, and somebody said, well, what are we going to do with Dave? And I was like, oh, it's like a bad game of musical chairs. So they let me go and I went to go get a job as a teacher. And they said, well, your degrees and electronic engineering. And I'm like, I know, but look, like I've written my own manuals. I've done computer based training. Look at all, I've got this really cool teaching resume. And they're like, yeah, we can't even talk to you without a bachelor's degree in education. And I was like, oh, I guess I'm going back to school then. So at that point, I was like, I mean, when I went to school the first time when I went to college, I was a waiter. And I was like, okay, am I going to go and get another waiter job or something that has some sort of flexible schedule. And at the time, I'd just been divorced. And I was living in my brother's basement. That's where I tell everybody, I'm like, I started my brother's basement behind right in front of a flush pipe. And next to the furnace, the water, I said, it doesn't have to be glamorous when you start. And my brother, because he's a saint, said, look, here's the deal. He goes, stay here. You get to decide what you want to be when you grow up. He goes, let me help you. You can live. He goes, we don't see you. You live in the basement. And he's like, go back to school. He goes, if you can keep yourself in your car insurance and food, he goes, you know, we'll handle everything else. I was like, okay, so I don't have to worry about rent. So that was a nice boost, and that's again, 'cause my brother's a saint. So I went back to school, and I was like, but I do need money here. So that's when I launched the School of Podcasting to do that, and the funny thing about it is I always tell people the last reason you want to start a podcast is I need to make money, and I need to make it quickly, because I had no audience. And so consequently, I was doing, I had the School of Podcasting. I had some people like, I just want to talk into a microphone, can you edit this for me? Yes, I can. I was doing guitar lessons, I was in a band. I had so many different streams of income going in at the time. But yeah, that's how I started it. And so basically the School of Podcasting put me through college, and then when I graduated, the School of Podcasting is actually, it actually started taking off. It was bringing in not retirement money, but like, okay, I don't have to worry about the car payment anymore, but I'd also picked up a fiance. And so when I graduated from college, I was like, I think I'm gonna do this podcasting thing, and she goes, no, I think you're gonna get a real job. And so the School of Podcasting has always been a super duper side hustle. You know, it was my income for years there for a while, but I went back to the corporate world, and I did corporate training for another probably two or three years. And the fun thing about corporate training is they hire a bunch of sales guys that can't sell. And so instead of finding the sales guys, they downsides the training department. And I'd seen that happen a couple of times. And when that happened, I was like, okay, you know, plus the people that needed Microsoft word training, we're getting smaller and smaller, 'cause the kids are born with a mouse in their hand these days, right? And I was like, you know, I've been doing this podcasting thing for about 10 years. And I really would like to kind of do this full time. And I was like, huh, what if there's any place I could get a job in podcasting? And I'd been a Libson customer at that point for 10 years. And I was like, I really like this company. I knew some of the people there. And I happened to know a guy that was a vice president 'cause I'd done a podcast with him a couple of years ago before this and I just called him up and I said, hey, this could be a really awkward conversation. And he's like, okay, what's up? And I go, I got good news and bad news. He's like, oh, awful, I what's the bad news? And I go, I just lost my job. And he goes, and the good news is? And I go, I'm available to work for you, buddy. I said, I told you it could get awkward. And he goes, no, no, I would say I'm sorry to hear this, but I'm not. He's like, what are you doing on the rest of the day? And I go, I'm walking to my car right now after just losing my job. I go, probably laundry. And he said, let me spend the president to call you back. So because of my podcast, I had created a reputation in podcasting. So people kind of knew that I knew my stuff. And so 20 minutes later, I was talking with the president of Libson and been a happy employee there for five years now, which is great, 'cause it gives me a very wide view of podcasting, which then helps to make the school of podcasting better. And plus, where I used to have to take vacation time to go do these different podcast events. I now go there and I granted eight to five. I'm kind of tied. He said in quotation marks to a booth, but it makes it really easy for people to find these. So I've had people say, well, where do you think you're gonna be in five years? And I'm like, hopefully right here, I'm pretty happy where I'm at. So, but yeah, that's how I ended up in Libson. And that's where I got the bachelor's degree, but in the end, it was like, yeah, same old corporate world. So I hopped on the podcasting train and very happy with it. - Yeah, you were saying that we were talking about that. There tends to be waves of types of podcast. And you said that the Spanish language would probably be like the next big wave. - Yeah, I mean, after the tech wave, there was not so much Spanish, but just languages in general, especially where English is a second language. So there was a lot of people trying to learn English. I have a friend of mine that does the English butcher, but it's something he's an English speaker. He lives in Spain, but he teaches people to speak Spanish, how to teach speak English. And so now you have people in Brazil and other parts of the country of the world that are Spanish-speaking people that are like, hey, this podcasting thing's pretty cool because more and more people are making podcasts in Spanish. So they don't have to sit there and go, I'm trying to understand like me, I'm trying to learn Spanish right now. And besides like sit and don't eat the chair or something, I'm not, I haven't quite got it down yet. So I can imagine them trying, if English is not your first language, trying to keep up with all these fast speaking stupid Americans that are just spewing English, now they can hear something in their native language. And they're like, oh, cool, this is great. So, and Brazil has a ton of people in all these other countries. And so when you can, again, hear somebody and you identify, you're like, wow, that person's just like me. And they're doing this. It's really like another birth of podcasting every time a new language comes on board. - It's interesting that when podcasting started growing that it really didn't become strictly an extension of radio, it really kind of took its own path. - Well, this is the thing. There's a great documentary on Amazon called corporate.fm. And if you want to see why radio sucks for lack of a better phrase, just watch that documentary because a, the US Congress got rid of the rule that limited how many stations you could own. So now you have these big giant conglomerate companies and they bought up all these radio stations and then just said, okay, they quit trying to grow the audience and said, okay, we have an audience. How can we squeeze more money out of them? And it just, I mean, if you think about it in the '50s, you had rock music. And then in the '60s, you kind of had psychedelics. And then the '70s, you had the Fleetwood Macs and all that in '80s, you had the hair metal. And then '90s, you had grunge. And then in 2000 and 2010, why? Because there's no innovation. There's no really no good, new music. 'Cause you have to test that and figure out if it works or not. We're just gonna keep playing all the stuff that we've already proven works and just keep cramming more advertising in it. So I remember when I went to my very first podcast conference, it was very much, we wanted to stick it to the man because bands couldn't get their music on radio and radio was very much the man. And we're gonna stick it to them. And we're gonna, I mean, the very early days, you had number one, there was a podcast still going on called East Radio where the host Madge Weinstein swore like a sailor on steroids. It was, you know, like, wow, she's never gonna be on a radio. And the other fun thing was, Madge is a character. It's actually a dude. But it was just, it was so creative. And so everybody's, first we're all just wearing like sailors and that gets kind of old after a while. But just stuff that, you know, and at the time, there was a service that's not around anymore called the Pod Safe Music Network. Where independent musicians could upload their music and say, hey, you have my permission to play this. Just mention my website. So you had people that wanted to be DJs and they were finding all these great artists and making their own kind of musical stuff. And I'm really kind of bummed that that resource is still not around. But it was very much, we didn't want to be like radio, which is kind of funny now because everybody that starts off a podcast, their goal is like, well, I want to do this and then get ads. And I'm like, so you're kind of trying not that there's anything wrong with ads. But more and more ads now, these ad networks are trying to figure out how to squeeze more ads into it. I'm like, have you not seen our history here? Like if we make podcasting turn into radio, the reason podcasting was so popular right out of the gate was like, first of all, we weren't all talking like this. Hey, all right, and it's binky in the whiz, you know, traffic and weather on the tens. People just talk normal. I remember there was a guy named Dr. Dave did shrink wrap radio. And Dr. Dave has kind of this raspy voice, welcome to shrink wrap radio. But when you hear Dr. Dave, you know, you're listening to Dr Dave, you know, Todd Cochrane from Blueberry. You know, welcome, hello, everyone. I'm Todd Cochrane. Only for the first one to tell you, I have kind of a tender voice. It's not that deep-based thing. This is Todd Cochrane. And so it sounded like normal people. And we're like, oh, this is like, I can identify with these people. And so I do occasionally hear the person. It's like, hey, welcome to Watch Cost Nation. All right, everybody. I'm stoked. Woo! You're like, okay, you know, because like if I go to dinner with that guy, he's going to be like, hey, pass me the mashed potatoes. Let's go. All right. You know, so to me, my the biggest kind of compliment I've ever received is I had a guy that's now a co-host. And I met him in an event. And he said, wow, because you know, it's really cool. And I go, and he goes, you're exactly the same way you are off mic as you are on mic. And I go, well, that's kind of the goal. I go, you know, if you listen, I always start off a show. And I'm a little more up to, hey, welcome to the show. And I'm like, well, it's about 20 seconds. And I'm down to talking like this. So, yeah, that's really why it took off because it wasn't radio, which is kind of funny. Because the more money that gets into it, the more starting this on like radio used to. In fact, there was just a, I forget. It might have been Jacob's media or I Hart or somebody. They were kind of like, that was their question. Like, hey, how many more ads can we stuff in here too? You guys start to get upset. And I was like, how about, you know, one every 30 minutes, you know, for 30 seconds, but, you know, it's just weird. And then you get the Joe Rogan's of the world who will do seven minutes of ads. And I was just remind people, you know, that is true. He does that. And oh, by the way, you're not Joe Rogan. You know, Joe Rogan started his career in 1989. You know, you're starting your career in 2021. So, you know, you can do the seven minutes of ads in about, you know, 15, 16 years. But right now, you're not Joe Rogan. So, there's an army of Rogan wannabes. I think that's-- was unfortunate drawback, let Rogan do his thing and you do your thing. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen a lot of people that have tried to do that where they see somebody who is having great success and they will try to really, I had one guy, John Lee Dumas is a friend of mine. When he first came on the scene, boy, everybody and their brother just stole his format and they're, you know, they're all stoked to see you and that's John. That is legit. John is a guy that is stoked that you are here. He's just a high energy guy. But John had a format where he primarily asked about the same six or seven questions. It was really interesting and his, uh, his questions kind of walked people through what is called the hero's journey. So a story artist and I always want to ask him like, was that a purpose or that just happened that way? But so many people tried to take his format and reproduce it. And I'm like, you're never going to out John Lee Dumas, John Lee Dumas because it comes to him naturally. You might be you and, you know, let that come through because people in smell kind of a phony. I have got not a client a couple of weeks ago. And I, he originally said, I want to help you grow the show. And when I got him on zoom and was talking to him, he goes, you know what? I'm going to tell you just, just thinking about growing the show, because I've really been like, for about the past three months, I'm just bored with it. I'm done talking about this and they go, that's probably why your numbers been down because that will come across the mic. If you're, if you have to kind of force your enthusiasm, I go, it's just not going to work. I have to show like that one. I'm my very first one. I mentioned I did for musicians. And they just came in time when I was like, I think I've said all there is to say about this. And I just start my schedule wasn't consistent anymore. I just didn't have it. And you know, that's when you're like, all right, it's time to put this one to bed. For every podcast that I've had on here, I always like to ask them what podcasts they like for us to do. And all week, I've been like, wait, you know your answer is going to be. There are two that I really, really like. One is called No Agenda. And it's interesting because its success is also its biggest kind of crutch. And that is, it is a show that they say they deconstruct the media. And so my favorite was, this was a while ago, where NBC all of a sudden started running stories about how trains are good and planes were bad. This is a number about a year ago. And all of a sudden, when you notice that, all of a sudden you keep on. There's another trains are good. Plains are bad. Here's another one. And then it dawns on you. Wait, who is NBC owned by, oh, that's right. General Electric. And what do they make? Oh, that's right, trains. You know, so, and it's also, it's got millions of people listening to it. And so you have a global audience. And what's interesting, especially with all this pandemic stuff, is they have people in hospitals that are like going, Hey, just for the record, when they say the hospital is full, the section of the hospital that they've set aside for COVID patients is full, not the whole hospital's full. Like so, you know, so it's kind of interesting like that. So it's not, not like conspiracy theory kind of stuff, but it is kind of interesting to watch. And then the other one that I have to be in the right mood to watch is called Congressional Dish. And this is by a woman named Jen Briny, who was in, I believe Germany. And if you ever get a chance to go outside of the US, you will find out how different your news is when you get outside the US, because as much as, you know, people are like fair and balanced or, you know, we were, no, no, everybody's gone to gender. And so Jen was like, look, I just want to know what the people that I elected, I want to know what they're working on what they're doing. So she started reading every bill that went through Congress. And when you hear what your Congress is actually doing, like, I want to say about a year ago, you know, we had that whole thing where everything crashed and, you know, all those, the different places went out of business and things like that. Well, Congress put a bunch of things in place so that that wouldn't happen again. And I'm going to say about eight months ago, they got rid of all those. And you're like, wait, what, what? And then you turn on the news and they're like, today on the red carpet, Kim Kardashian. And you're like, wait, why aren't we talking about this? So that's one that I listen to. I've actually changed in many cases or I will contact my congressman and things like that because there's stuff that's going on that you're like, wait, what? She just did a story about how I still kind of go really, but there was a chair for babies that killed like about 100 kids. And the way this is set up right now, if a company is going to do a recall, like if Congress goes, hey, that's unsafe because we have a department that's like, you know, checks for safety. We go, hey, that's not safe. We're going to to issue a recall somehow the way the law is written, the company has to okay it. I'm like, wait, what? And they'll be like, no, no, no, hold on or the word. It's just, so those two shows are a great way to really, I've almost quit watching the news because number one, it's almost that time. Well, anytime you see like, hey, pumpkin spice is now available at, you know, Starbucks, that's a Starbucks commercial. Okay, that's not the news. That's a commercial. And there's a lot of that going on. So I occasionally turn on the news, but I don't need the weather because it's on my watch, you know, and I don't really need to, I remember, man, probably about six months ago, I turned on the morning news and the the the bleed male actor was marrying a couple. And I was like, man, it must be a slow news day when you are making the news on the news. So those, those are two, congressional dish dot com and no agenda show dot com are two shows that I always find entertaining and and yet informative. And the the thing about the no agenda show, in fact, both these shows operate on what's called value for value. There's no sponsors. And they just say, hey, if you found the show valuable, go to the website, click on donate or whatever. And the no agenda show actually has people donate $1,000 to their show. And if you donate $1,000, you become a night of the no agenda round table. And they have this whole big music and ceremony. And so the more people that are donating, they have, they like, I think if you donate over $50, they will mention your name. Well, people are starting to do that. So now in the middle of their show, they have this big segment where just them like, Hey, you know, Nancy Smith from Oregon, well, thanks so much. And, you know, Bob, you know, Everhart from, you know, Pekipsey. And you're like, okay, can we get back to the news? So there's, there's a time in the middle where you're like, yeah, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. But on the other hand, I want them to be paid because it is a valuable show. So it's kind of interesting the way they have that setup that it's like, well, the reason you're successful is because you're good. But now this whole thinking, everybody is kind of ruining their show. And I kind of want both. But those are the two I listened to when I see those come in. I'm like, oh, new episode. So now, now, how many episodes did you say that you have on your playlist right now? Yeah, on my playlist right now, I use Overcast. I have a hundred and thirty two. And I will listen to those. Most of those are podcasts about podcasting. I have a couple shows on marketing. I have some members of the school podcasting that I listen to. I have some on health. You know, but a lot of those are podcasts about podcasting. And a lot of those I will, those are ones I will listen to. And in fact, today we're going to talk about microphones that are under a hundred bucks. And I'd be like, okay, stop not that it's a bad episode of their bad host. I'm like, I know my answer on that next. You know, so I'm looking for things to see if I'm going to miss anything, which is kind of silly because anything that's really cool coming along or something, some new tool or something like that, somebody in my audience is going to go, hey, have you heard about this yet? So I should probably be listing more marketing shows than podcasts about podcasting just that's really what my audience wants. Okay. And as you know, we have a portion of the show and it is called shameless self-promotion. And this is where you can let everybody know where they can follow you or if there's anything else you'd like them to know about. Yeah, my main website is schoolofpodcasting.com. That's where I hope you plan, launch and grow your podcast. If you do want to monetize it, I do have a little red book right behind me called profit from your podcast. You can find a profit from your podcast.com that's distributed through Simon and Simon and Schuster. So if you're a person that's been doing a podcast for a while and it's funny because you said you'd been doing this for three years. And that's the answer that nobody wants to hear. How long does it usually take you to make any money that's worth anything? And the answer is not six months. It's not the year. It's actually three years. The people I interviewed in the book, it was weird. It kept coming up and they're like, so when did you start making any kind of money with your podcast? I guess somewhere around two and a half to three years. I'm like, there it is again. There it is again. So there's a book by, oh, I forget her name, Valerie Geller called Beyond Powerful Radio. And she even in her book, she says how long does it take you to build up a radio audience about three years? So I always tell people, if you're, again, if you're starting up a podcast with big money quickly, maybe not be, you're going to have to have multiple streams of income to make that work. So yeah, but everything is out at schoolofpodcasting.com. I like it. And you also have your consulting site too, David Jackson dot org. I got David Jack. I have way too many domains. David Jackson dot org. I have podcast consultant.com. That's the one I usually point people to for, uh, and that's just another experiment. One of the things I like to do is experiment with stuff. So the school of podcasting is somewhere between 20 and 40 minutes in episode. That's weekly. And then twice a month, I do your podcast consultant, which you can find a podcast consultant dot com. And that's, um, big lessons, um, uh, in a short period of time. So it's like, and it's funny. I just set this rule that every episode will be nine minutes or less. And the reason for that is it takes Jimmy Fathon nine minutes to go to commercial. So I was like, that seems to be a section. And most of them are like four minutes long, but it's just one little lesson, you know, here's, here's something to think about. So So I'm just testing that because I was like, well, what if people want short episodes? So hence, podcast consultant was born and that podcast came about. We've been talking to Hall of Famer, Dave Jackson of the School of Podcasting. Definitely check out his show if you want to learn. If you want to do a podcast yourself, he's the guy you want to hear. Dave, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. This has been great. So since it's our season seven finale, I figured I'd share with you an article that I found on Vulture.com and it's called The Best Podcasts of 2021 so far. I know it's 2022 already, but we record early, so cut me a little slack here. So, so have a listen to some of these podcasts and I'm wondering if maybe you will agree with them. Let me know. We have anything for Selena, the Ezra Klein Show, through the cracks, spectacle, an unscripted history of reality TV. Welcome to your fantasy. It's about chippin' tales, by the way. The line, the improvement association, the ACC cast, AACK, that's hosted by Jamie Loftus and it's about the Kathy Cartoon, remember the Kathy Cartoon? Hot White Heist, which is an audible series that stars Bowen Yang from Saturday Night Live. Also there is Unread, Decoder Ring, Maintenance Phase, Nine-Twelfth, so as I mentioned, this is being recorded late in 2021, so they might be something that overtakes all of them. Maybe like a podcast called Too Many Podcasts? We can only hope. We can only hope. Let's keep our fingers crossed all together. Don't try and cross your fingers while you're holding your phone, you might drop it. So before we sign off for season 7, I just realized that I'd have to give somebody a shout-out today. A while back, I interviewed Dr. Andrea Boynitsky of Talk About Talk. It was the last season and we had so much fun in that interview and we really got to know each other. It was a nice person, and Andrea is actually the one who said to me, "You know what? You should get Dave Jackson on your podcast. He's a great guest and you'll really learn a lot from him too." And she was right on all accounts. So thank you Dr. Andrea, I'll keep listening to your show as well. And of course, not forget our guest, Mr. Dave Jackson, Dave. Thank you so much for coming on down to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation with you, sir. So next week, you know what comes up next week, or maybe you don't, okay? I'll tell you. We always do a little bit of a season wrap up at the end of our 25 episodes and number 26 is just me, no guests, and we kind of give thanks to all of you, the listeners, let you know what's going on with the show, we thank all the folks who have appeared on the show, and also such a stuff like that. So in the meantime, you know where to listen to the show, anywhere that you can get a podcast app, or if there's a podcasting website, or you could go to this show's website at SurePolution.com. It's whole there. Plenty of places for you to listen. But we'll leave him talk about that next week too. And don't forget to follow me on social media. SurePolution, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and maybe TikTok. Okay, Mr. Bruce, we've got a lot of cleaning up to do to get ready for season 8. So in the meantime, everybody, we will catch you next week for the little media episode and have a great week and Viva, my SurePolution. Thanks for listening to Too Many Podcasts. Please disperse. You can go home now. I said you can go home now. Viva, my SurePolution. So, you'll come back now, you hear?