Håkan Hardenberger: International Trumpet Soloist, Part 1

[Music] I've known Hoken Hardenberger for a great many years and it has been amazing to see what he is accomplished with his life. Almost single-handedly he has been responsible for raising the level of the trumpet to that of a solo instrument, not only through his playing but also through his commissioning of major contemporary composers. In part one of our conversation Hoken talks about his three main teachers, Boone Olsen, Pierre de Beau and Tom Stevens and what he learned from them. Hoken Hardenberger, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much, Tony. Thank you. It's wonderful to have you on and there's a lot of stuff I'd like to talk to you about and first I'd like to talk about your three teachers, the three main teachers and some of the ideas that you got from them and how that has stayed with you for all of your life. And your first teacher was a good friend of mine too but really close to you and that was Boone Olsen. And before I ask you to talk about him for people who hear this interview, if you go on Hoken's website and Hoken you tell me if you agree with this or not and go to the photo section, there are eight photos and the third photo when I look at that photo I see Boone Olsen in you. I don't know if you've noticed that before or not but it's touching to me. Yeah, I don't see any physical resemblance between the two of us I have to say but of course we are our teachers. That's how they stay on in us. It's how our parents stay on in us. I had a very good friend, a poet Jacques Véropon, he said we love their laughter and we say their words and that's how they stay alive. And it's definitely so with teachers. Although they tell us we should only keep 40% of what they say and throw the rest away I think a lot remains and a lot filters through the years and some things takes a very long time to assimilate. Some things you can do immediately as soon as you grasp it some things will take a week some things will take a couple of years. I had so many things I mean now I'm already moving to Tiba but things that I knew I understood but it took me years to make them real. And then you have things that even surfaces again or a lot later. It's almost like it's in your subconscious in a way and things that happen during a lesson you sort of get it but then it's sort of gone but years later it's there. Absolutely. Even you know they're bad habits. Huh okay. Something one should not neglect you know the bad habits of your teachers because they will also surface of course. Well I've never thought about that okay. And that's something also to work on you know because they will have they will have had their hang up around the trumpet and as we all have and whether you want or not you also put that on to your students. I find that very interesting I mean I recently the other day I you know I record these Charlie A attitudes and the student of mine was playing one and I said wait a minute. As I said it I realized that he was right and I have been wrong all along and it was one of in one of the early ones and I've been making the same mistake for about 45 years or so. I neither boo nor t-bo said anything and I've just played it like that and I in a way I mean of course it irritates me no end but at the same time I find it rather touching that you also emulate the mistakes that the little and you know if we become very philosophical it's in the imperfection that true beauty lies don't we think that. That's true yeah yeah it's funny we I was talking to Justin bland he's a broke trumpet player now living in Copenhagen and he was talking about certain pieces that are written like for example Bach would write if he had something with with base and trumpet he'd write when he was talking about the devil he'd write a lot of F's which were really bad notes you know and and Justin even said it's almost missing the point now when you do the right of spring and the bassoon place so beautifully at the beginning. Because back then maybe they couldn't know exactly probably they couldn't and I sounded much more much more forced that said I've never really thought of that concept that not only the good but maybe if you imperfections from each teacher stays with. Yeah I think it's touching thought and you take it and then you also see what they struggle with but but I mean what would have been really interesting would have been to to talk to them. And ask them why they did what they did why why they did it in the sequence that they did what and and how from what I can remember how I felt about it but that would have been interesting because frankly all the exercises are there we don't need to write another exercise for the summer. But you know we have we have all the tools necessary and we just need to use them at the right time and use our ears and our ideas to know what tool to use. Did you ever have I'll get to boo in just a second but did you ever find that you had like contrasting ideas from boo or peer to bowl or Tom Stevens where you had to figure out which way am I going to go with this. Like in terms of approach to music or and I want to ask something about that in regards to your Charlie A project in in a couple of minutes but just in terms of either approach to the trumpet or musicality. I think I was always critical to to information maybe that has something to do with my upbringing my my father was someone who like to discuss everything and of course I mean I guess with boo I was so. You know your I started I was eight and we started immediately with lessons that were like one and a half hours. Wow and how did your father pick boo it was I would say pure coincidence I mean there was no music in my family of any say there was you know records to dance to basically I think the only trumpet records were James last. You know something like that and and and they bought a trumpet and they bought a real trumpet even it was a not a very good one and and then they asked in the music shop. Who who could possibly teach and they said well there's this trumpet young trumpet player in the in the symphony orchestra he teaches. And and they found him and and I remember very vividly the first lesson even you know he take me to this little place there and and a little studio where the musicians of the orchestra used this practice rooms and there was a piano and he I remember he first he tried my my ears a little bit he played little intervals on the piano and so if I could you know. Sing them and and and then immediately restarted and already first and second lessons were like one and a half hours and not not a usual 20 minutes because I just loved it I completely loved it and that had a lot to say about his. And seriousness you know that was this 80 year old kid that he took completely serious I mean you you know him very well he wouldn't you know he wouldn't do any baby talk and he take that I think you know I mean he was absolutely to the point and I see if I was a grownup basically. I'm sure he could tell from you here's a kid who's really engaged and really wants to do it right from the beginning. Yeah probably I mean that's what we would have had to ask him I mean we there was one state they made a documentary film about me in Britain a long time ago he was interviewed he was interviewed for that and I remember he said the funny thing there he said I'll try to admit I mean I already have a Swedish accent. I'll try to imitate his. So he said I just could kick him hard. That's great. Okay he used to for the non-sweets here the southern part of Sweden the sort of dialect is called scone it. That's what I am. Yeah and and and boo did that so incredibly well it was so it was so funny to do. But you know I remember that we talked about the Malcolm Gladwell book and outliers and about the concept of the 10,000 hour rule, about to get really good at something you have to practice 10,000 hours. What we didn't discuss is another main factor of that book, or tenet of that book, which was luck. And if you think that your father went to this music store and what if your father said, well, take from this guy who's plays in a municipal band or something like that, what might have happened? Well, I don't think, I think Lackas very little to do with it. I think intuition is much stronger than luck. I remember around the time where I'd been given a trumpet for Christmas, you know, and no lesson had been taken or anything like that. Around that time there was like a little publicity leaflet appeared at my parents. And it was in the next village. There were some people there giving lessons. So there was a telephone number they could call. And so my dad called them and said, oh, I hear you give trumpet lessons here. And then they said, yes, that's the boy on the trumpet. And then my father said, yes, and a very nice one too. And then they were suddenly not so interested any longer to give lessons. All purpose was to sell instruments from the shop. And also, you know, and then to find what to find, you could call it Lack, but I prefer intuition. And also that circles met. And I mean, I'm not going to get mystical about this, but it was very clear that it changed my life. I mean, that he was a trumpet and that it was boo. You know, had it been a had it been a banjo and some guy, he wouldn't have changed my life the same way as it did. Yeah, I think boost actually boo changed my life too. I mean, I'm here in Europe because of boo. Well, he had a he had a intensity about him. Yes. He would listen to any student forever and not give up and and continue listening, listening, listening like a like a pit bull carrier who gets a grip and won't let go. And but and with a very very warm heart, but and there was I mean, there was I remember a situation where I must have been maybe nine or ten and I'd played for a couple of years where he suddenly said to my parents that you have to come every evening this week. Not for so long, but how can I say I have a lesson every evening? So there must have been some sort of serious problem of which I can't remember at all what it was, but but but that was the typical thing for him. Then he would not let go. Yeah. The interesting thing that I've noticed about his students is when I would be there for a day and I'd see him teach is he would have one student come in and the student would be a terrific player. I really great player. And the next student would come in and could hardly play because they had so many ambusher problems. And so the range of ability or let's say problem solving with his students really varied quite a bit. Sure, but I mean when I first met him, he was 28 years old and had not so much experience in teaching. He wrote down very much as I understood Schlossberg himself did writing down the suitable exercise for the week, like a doctor's prescription. So he would write it down by hand, what I should do for the next week. And then eventually he would have me write it down. So I learned the textility of and the connection between a written note on paper that you play something which I thought was very clever. Yeah. What did he work with you on? How many years were you with him? I was with Bo for nine years. Long time, okay. And the beginning, I mean if I look in that book which I still have, it's very much based on Schlossberg. And then after that Clark was really major staple. And then he would work, I mean he of course also traveled and studied. He was in Chicago and I would then benefit from what he learned when he was traveling and he met Tibo as a student. But I would say Schlossberg Clark and then moving on, Madgio, Louis Madgio, pedal notes and stuff like that. Before I then I pressed myself met Jimmy Stampp when I was about 14, 15. And then we would work on that together and then and then already the Charlie A's would come in and other stuff. And so Bo suggested that you go then study with Tibo or was that your idea? Well the first meeting was Bo's idea. That's a funny story actually because it's we were going on on just a family holiday trip for a week to Paris. So he said well you have to go see this guy Pia Tibo. Okay, we said and we went to Paris and then the poor travel agent in Paris because Bo didn't think of giving us a phone number or anything like that. So we had to find also Pia Tibo. And there's about six million Pia Tibo in Paris. You know if you're looking in the fanbook but by some miracle this this travel agent actually managed to find the right one. And I went and knocked on the door and famous first phrase I mean I said Mr Tibo I presume. Okay that's great. And he invited me in and I remember I had he was raining and I had very very wet shoes and I was dying to take the shoes off but he said he wanted to be polite. Oh no please keep your shoes off. Strange thing to remember but I remember also in the very first lesson with him he made me play some stamp exercises. So all these circles have somehow always connected. So I was very young I met Tibo first time and then it had been decided a long time before that I was going to go to Chicago to study and become an orchestral player and all this. And then and then that meeting with Tibo it was it clicked and I I I didn't saw him in some summer courses with with stamp and also in Montreux in the festival that was there and and I felt no I went to study with him. And it clicked because of his mentality or or his intensity or the whole package. Who knows why do people click? I mean that's another book. And it just did and of course for my parents sending a 16 year old to Paris was already a tough thing to do but to have sent 16 year old to Chicago might have been you know in the days before FaceTime and and more easy ways to to to keep in touch. I think for them Paris seemed like like the easier way out. Right right and you did not speak French when you went there? No I had I had a little burlitz book you know I mean I was I was yeah I was 16 and in those days you did the entrance exam in the autumn you know sort of a week weeks before it's school started so it was it there was no you know it was like a chance go I I I traveled down and I I gave it the chance and had it not worked I would have gone on again. Wow and was that nerve racking for you going to another country and not really knowing the language or did you think this is what I want to do? Yeah I don't remember that is being nerve racking now no I mean those things you know when you when you're 16 17 you learn a language in two months. Okay okay you know I remember you telling me this one story and to me this seems so French that you were taking I don't know if was a theory class or a soul-fetched class and you were really sick in the And the teacher said go home and drink this specific I think was a cent in me on wine or something like that and You'll get better. I think she sent you home and told you a wine to drink or something. Do I have that wrong? It's much less glamorous I could never have afford sent in me on wine Okay, I don't know what background you come from and What it was she was the selfish teacher and she was Madame Jiro do de baisse and she was Wonderful and she saw me Struggling with you know I Wasn't sleeping very well. It was a very cold place. I was staying and I was I was I was a bit sick and She said you have to eat horse meat You have to eat stick stick takta was a raw raw Horse meat because it has so much protein and she gave me the money to go to the Bushirish Evalin when they have horse meat and buy by So that's that's what happened. That's very French. Well the class you were in it was a great class - oh Yeah, I mean very much so I mean we we there were many many many friends who've become great players and and He was it was a tough environment, but it was also I think Intensity if bull was I was used to intensity from him, but this was another intensity it was Class was three days a week and class would be an entire afternoon And you'd sit there and everybody was smoking except me and Then when it was your turn you'll cut your way through with knife and and through the smoke and and Play I remember first time first lesson in The class I of course I was seeing T-Ball the time but in the class first time it was Arbon etude number one, so he said it was my turn so I got up and I played about two bars and he said two slow sit down Okay, and I was I was sure I would get another chance and played faster and he no that was it Until the next meeting next week. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's good, you know We have to do it when we have to do it. Did you think you actually did play it fast enough? And he just wanted it faster or that you were playing it too slow. I think I played it To the metronome mark of my addition, but I made a wrong addition. I don't know and then there was there was a Someone who is unfortunately not with us anymore Jean Bernard Bush And we were we were the two young hot shots of the class and T-Ball very Clevverly saw that oh these two I can use that so If I get up first and play an attitude Then he would always pick Jean Bernard straight after me and Jean Bernard would of course play just a little bit faster than I did Well, you know there's one quote that I've heard you say about to about actually a couple of quotes and one that I think is so great is You set your own limits. I believe that's his quote. Oh very much so I mean or at least That's what he made me Understand You know, I mean I think in whatever thing you do in life society and other people will try to put you in In a box in a limit, you know, this is what you do. This is what you supposed to do and He was he made it clear to me that that That's not necessarily true. You know, I mean And he was you know, it sounds silly now when we talk, you know, an attitude only being about speed and you know I really don't want Him or people to get an image that he was all about you know the sporting aspects of the trumpet because he definitely was not it was all all in a in a Purpose to make music He was not the most analytical About music but but very very emotional about music and he was also he also gave me Great great freedom, you know, he he he managed to I mean that's also something I I must I would have liked to ask boo You know how he took this little eight-year-old and Did not make me sound just like a trumpet? I mean what what could be personality in the sound? That I might have I Had early on I mean you heard me when I was pretty young. I think you Maybe you agree or not. I don't know but that was there and boo didn't he didn't try to change that he didn't make it Formity sound. Yeah, yeah, for sure and and and then when I came to the T-bow also he He would very much Respect certain aspects of what I was doing Musically and and and and not even touched them One one of my other favorite quotes about from T-bow is about Starting the note and how a violin would start the note compared to a trumpet Because that that isn't musical side one of the musical sides of things. Oh absolutely Are you wanting me to? That's a median line go for you I tell this in almost every class because it's great It is so you know he see because he was of course as a child he was trained on the violin He played the violin right and and his father wanted him to be a violinist and and but he would say Was the violin is five thousand ways to play why not and and and was a trumpet we have to we get it or remiss it And then he said if you can have ten if you can have Ten and then starting you know at one extreme with you know no Articulation just air and then had the other one which is a very very sharp The other extreme then you have already you have the beginning of a language and of course the beginning of a sound creates The space for what what that sound can be or not Did he talk in terms of violin like he would say you know violinists would play this up bow or down bow because it seems like a lot of brass players tend to play just down Well, yeah, we'll soon come to the next of my three Why while teachers who maybe spoke more specifically up and down but Tiba would say he would more It would be more an imaginative Whereas but he would always refer to the violin a lot And he would he and he was also singing a lot In his in his teaching and the way he would sing you know Jim Bim Bim Bim Bim you know that this kind of He had a way of see and of course also with Sulfash singing wild phrases in Sulfash you know which teaches you that he he he hears he hears what he's gonna play You know which should be taken for granted as a precondition, but we certainly don't always you know Now he wouldn't talk up but he would make me play also violin things he would I remember him giving me the the Paganini Capricchi and Just it just practice them We know other Gold and that and to see you know what could I but could I do and and and then Insist on the sort of International perfectionism that you would have on the violin. He said well, what's the reason? Where should we or why should we not have international trumpet and why why could we not have linear International sometimes you know we we we are taught always to that International is something Vertical because we have we we play in courts with with colleagues in the orchestra or in the ensemble So intonation is always you know keep the third down blah blah blah, you know but linear intonation where where you know an F sharp in G Major is something completely different to an F sharp in in D Major and depending also where about in the line of music it is if it's suggesting the next chord or if it's remembering the chord that was just before and This is something spring players Work with all the time. I mean you hear a violin is like I've regidly so just passed a way, it's unbelievable linear linear international one note leading to another. Yes. And because like you mentioned, much in an F sharp in G major, I mean, that's basically the third or the fifth. Yes, of the major. And so a brass player in an orchestra is going to play that low. But in the linear form, you're leading into the into the G. So you would play it higher, I guess, if you're a violin player. As a example, I mean, not as a rule, but but as a right. So well, okay, so then how long were you with Tibo? So I was three years in the class, and I finished in 81 and was then 20, 20 years old. Okay, and then did you go back to Sweden and then immediately to Los Angeles? Or yeah, well, in those days in Sweden, we had to do military service. It was okay. If you didn't do military service, you could not go back. Oh, basically, I would have had to stay in Paris. And and they just started this new possibility of a military band. And they were doing first auditions and my father said, well, wouldn't it be nice if you could? So he was kind of my father who said, well, come home and do military service. And then you can, you know, come and visit us or live in Sweden if you want and all that. Yeah. So I did that. And that sort of was, you know, way in a year. But I'd already done some some international competitions and things were then kind of slowly starting. But I but I knew that I, I mean, first of all, I was still trying to simulate all the things I had learned in Paris. There was so many things I knew that I should be able to do, but that I couldn't do. In terms of music or in terms of technical things or both both both. And I wasn't strong enough. I was I mean, I was building. I knew I was still very much in a process of building and building from foundation. And I knew if I if I would would start working in an orchestra, I wouldn't have time to do it. So that was one of the reasons. And then I knew that there was something missing. And I had I had met Tom Stevens also in sort of summer of courses. And and I was always intrigued. I mean, it hadn't been longer periods at all. And I was intrigued by his control of the instrument. Because I had from Boul, I had certainly very, very solid foundation sound wise. And I was using air well. There was not a wittie bow. I acquired a certain wildness, let's say. And I was in my playing when I was doing, for instance, the competitions or the the very few concerts I did. I certainly went for it. I mean, I didn't hold back. And I was I would say I was a bit of I was quite nervous also. And I was I was longing for something that was control. And I was wondering whether Tom was you know, maybe he was doing yoga or or maybe there was some secret California mushroom he was eating. Okay. I had no idea what it was. Even if I had met him short. And he he I mean, you knew him. He was. Yeah. He was someone who would when you talk to him, even when I was young, he would he would put more questions to your head than give answers. And so I was longing to see what that was. And then he wasn't definitely no no Californian mushrooms. And and also no yoga and nothing. Hocus Pocus, whatsoever. It was absolute texts. Reading reading the text and everything out of the text. And he would speak about what would this be on the valley? Would it be dango or would it be up? And what is that? Feminine cadence? Is it what is it? What is it? And the music? You have to see it. You have to see it. And he had all his tricks and transposing sex. I choose some. I remember that. I'm sure you do. I'm stamping stamping on the floor when you I think was number 38 in E. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then he would have you prepare you know, play it in that key. And then he would change the key. And then but then insist on the phrasing. So he was he was I mean, I always say that's another cliche, but I I always say that he he talked me hard to to read music properly. You know, when I studied with him, I don't think he ever told me what to do physically at all. It was just musical concept. And there was one time where he said play that low G louder. And I said, but how? And he said, I don't care if you have to stand on your head and piss on the wall. Just do it. Yeah. And and and also, you know, I mean, I there was a piece that he played. He had recorded. And I loved it so much. The Henderson variation. Oh yeah, right. And so the first thing I wanted to do when I came to see him was, you know, I went to play the Anderson variation. I never got to play the Henderson variation. And he we hardly ever I don't think we ever touched one single piece of not the hands and not the barrier, not not any of you know, because that's not what he wanted to tell me. You know, he he told me how to if I can read the music, then I will make my mind up how I want that music to sound. You know, which is it's so much more I wish I was clever like that teaching. I you know, and he he was so so clever as a teacher. I mean, another thing he did, I was playing at the time when I came to him a Bach one and a half C mouthpiece. And he said, there was something in my sound. I he liked my sound, but he wanted to add a little something. So he said, well, could you please try this mouthpiece for now? And I did. And I really liked it. I can't remember what it was because three days later he took it away. Okay. And I said, Oh, please. And then and then he gave me a second one. And he said, not play this. And I liked his as much. And to my son, he took that one away as well. And then he gave me a mouthpiece that I didn't play it for 35 years. Whoa. And was that one even better than the first two? Yeah, of course. And it was his intention from the beginning that that's the one I would he was not guessing. But he because he took me through the other two, I didn't have the usual backlash. You know, you have a mouthpiece, a new mouthpiece, oh, feels great. And then two days later, it's right. Right. You know, boy, he knew his stuff. Incredible player too. Yeah. I mean, I still still think about him almost every day. You know, the things that I'd learn from him and just his personality, such a strong personality. Yeah. You know, in in in chosen veil when we did these choruses in his later years. And he played very little. But you know, suddenly you would take the trumpet up him. But I mean, I remember one particular instant where he just took the trumpet and played the lyrnora call. And that amazing, you know, focused fantastically dark dark, but reverberates sound, you know, and and it's just amazing. Yeah. For me, I mean, as great as his recordings are hearing him in person, taking a lesson from and being right next to his bell was just amazing. That he had a really dark sound and yet it was really brilliant. And normally those two don't go together. If anything, a darkest is dull and brilliant is bright. Yeah. No, he certainly had it was resonance, you know, it was all resonance. And and I think that's the most difficult thing nowadays. You know, people have such possibilities to hear things online and and we have every information is accessible with a click or a button. But the lecture of having heard those people next to you or in a concert hall is, I mean, I remember hearing Maurice Murphy playing Marley Six. And you sit, I was sitting far back in the Salzburg Festival hall, which is a very dull sounding hall. And and his trumpet sound came like a glowing bullet straight into my belly, you know, I mean, very physical sensation that you can't. I mean, even if people sound great on record or whatever, it's not the same. The life experience still beats absolutely everything. - In part two of our conversation, I asked Hoken about his recent project of recording the Charlier Aitudes, his conducting and his friendship with the conductor Andres Nelson. (triumphant music) [Music]