Gut-Brain Expert: Best Proven Anti-inflammatory Foods - Her Discussions by Dr Faye

Dr. Caitlin's Personal Path to Gut-Brain Research In the UK, we're living in a stress epidemic. 81% of women have been stressed to the point where they can't cope. Your gut is having a huge effect on how you experience stress, on your mood, on your anxiety. Speaker 2 Doctor Caitlin is a leading voice in the gut brain axis. We'll look at how the gut affects the brain and the brain affects the gut, as well as easy ways that you can improve your gut health so that in turn, you can potentially improve your mental health. Speaker 1 About 1.5 kilos worth of bacteria you have in your gut. They're not just hanging around living within your gut, they're contributing in a really meaningful way to your health. The people that really embraced, they would come back to me and say I actually feel calmer and I can deal with the stress of life and my moods improved. Speaker 2 How does eating certain foods affect your brain? Speaker 1 Oh gosh. Speaker 2 But first, please do not forget to subscribe or leave a five star review on whatever platform you're using to listen to this podcast. It really, really helps us grow so that we can continue to help you live a happier, healthier life. Thank you. Speaker 1 Hi, I'm Doctor Caitlin Hall, and you're listening to her discussions podcast. Speaker 2 Doctor Caitlin, our community have sent in so many incredible questions about the gut brain axis. But first, you completed a PhD in Neurosciences and gut Microbiology at the University of Queensland before becoming a visiting researcher at King's College London. What made you so interested in the gut brain access? Speaker 1 I think it's, it's like a long story actually. I was diagnosed with celiac disease when I was 18 years old. And to go like one day to eating all your favorite foods, you know, like a staple diet of an 18 year old being, you know, pasta, pizza, like, oh, delicious things. And then the next day having to like reconsider my whole diet and like what I'm eating. That was like a like, what the hell moment for me. And that ultimately led me to start studying nutrition science and then a master's in dietetics to become a registered dietitian. And then I think I immediately went from from studying into private practice. So I was mainly working with, with women and in weight management. And at the time there was this really early emerging research to show that the types of bacteria that you have in your gut can actually influence things like your glucose and insulin levels, your metabolic health, your cholesterol, and your ability to, to put on weight or lose weight depending on your goal. So I started recommending this, you know, this gut health element to everyone's weight management plan. So focusing on fiber and fermented foods and polyphenols and very successful in terms of like weight management. But the thing that was like really interesting and fascinating was that the people that really embraced that, you know, got diversity diet, they would come back to me and say, like, I actually feel calmer and I can deal with the stress of life and my moods improved. And we weren't necessarily seeing the same effects or to the same degree in those that weren't looking after their guts as much while losing weight, which was fascinating to me. So that then ultimately led me to be like, actually, I want to dive a little bit deeper into this. So then I joined a lab back in Australia with 20 neuroscientists. I was the only person that has come from a, like a nutrition or a dietitian background. And I sort of stood up at one of the lab meetings. I was like, OK, I'm going to scan people's brains. I'm going to take stool samples from them to look at their gut bacteria. I'm going to then make them do all these, you know, fear and anxiety tasks. And yeah, everyone looked at me like I was crazy, like I'd lost it. The idea that your gut bacteria could, you know, show up on an MRI screen or influence different brain regions was, was crazy to them. And that kind of reflects, you know, that was not even that long ago. That was about 7 years ago. But even since then, I think we've, we've gone a little bit further in the research. But yeah, even even today, I'm still obsessed with gut bacteria and, and the brain. And that's kind of how it started. Speaker 2 What you were saying about that meeting really speaks to how I find just science and medicine in general divided. You know, people like that area of expertise and they kind of stick to that. And there's very few people who branch across different arenas. And I'm. Yeah, it's, it's so, so, so needed because the more we learn about our body and our brain, we realise that everything is so interconnected. And even now where there's such a stigma around mental health in comparison to physical health, it it perpetrates this idea that everything is all in your head. And I hate that term because it doesn't make it any less real if it exists in your brain. But. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 It really doesn't acknowledge these brain body connections. I'm really, really excited to come on to some of the ways that we can look after our brain, get access really easy ways, which I'm sure you'll have a lot to share with those. Separating Fact from Fiction in Gut Health Products But first, I want to come on to our buy or buy by section. So I'm going to tell you some products. I would love it if you could tell me whether you would buy these products or say bye bye to them. Got it. So the first thing that we have is juice cleanses. Speaker 1 That's a quick bye bye. I mean, with juice cleanses, you're taking out one of the most important ingredients of fruit, which is the fiber. And like, I'll probably talk about this a million times today, but fiber is like the most important thing for your gut health and your brain health. So yeah, that's a quick bye bye for that one. Speaker 2 Nice, nice and straightforward the next one. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's another bye bye for sure. That's a quick bye bye. There is very, very little evidence, if any, linking detox teas to any beneficial health effects in the body, particularly, you know, people generally take this for gut health, but also for for for weight management as well. And both of those things has been shown, you know, there's no detox required. Your liver does all of that work. So that is a quick save your money. Bye bye to to any detox tea trend that I see. Speaker 2 Nice. I love the clear clear answers. I also was going to ask you because about what you think about a lot of these detox teas that have very laxative component to them cannot do any damage to your gut health. Speaker 1 Yeah. Anything that does have like a really strong laxative effect or as advertised as having a laxative effect, I'm always wary of and it definitely is a big red flag to me when it comes to regularity and Constipation. There are like 20 things that we should be doing before we get to the point where we're looking at laxatives, which is kind of counterintuitive because you go to your GP and you might report, you know, Constipation. The first thing they'll give you is is potentially a laxative. But what I want everyone to know is that there are so many things that we can try before we get to that point because we don't want to have people on laxatives long term or having to rely on let's say that this this tea does work for you. Yeah. It's not beneficial long term. It's disrupting like the natural processes that your body should be operating with. So big red flag for me. Speaker 2 What are those top things that you recommend for people who are constipated before maybe being before maybe going to a laxative? Speaker 1 The really low hanging fruit, excuse the pun, is fiber. So fiber, fluids, movement, those are the top three things that we look at as a dietitian to to help someone establish more of a regular bowel pattern. So fiber obviously being, you know, the reason why everyone takes fiber is, you know, it's the thing your grandma took to help her go to the toilet. But there is so much research behind fiber being, you know, the broom that sweeps through your gut, helping to to move everything along and to keep everything regular, good consistency, good transit time and help with the normal muscle contractions of your gut. However, hand in hand with that is water intake. So whenever you're increasing fiber intake, you have to increase your water intake. That's because fiber draws in a whole lot of water when you consume it. So you need to to make sure that everything is flowing nicely. It's actually quite topical. There was a recent report that came out with some some new guidelines around Constipation as well. One of the most effective things is looking at something like a a prune. So I think it was like 5 to 10 prunes a day is super effective and obscene amount of rye bread. But I do want people to know that it is much easier than that. Even simple switches like having you know 2 Kiwi fruits a day or you know having whole grain varieties rather than white breads and white pastas. All of those small switches should be the first line treatment before spending God knows how much on on your detox tea. Speaker 2 That's so interesting you said about this, Who Kiwis? Because there was a study on athletes as well relatively recently about having two Kiwis and your sleep quality. So 2 Kiwis seems like one of the best things that you can do. Speaker 1 With the magic, I love that kafia love. Yeah, that's a buy. A quick buy. Kafia is when you compare it to things like yogurt or other fermented foods. Kafia has the most diversity of different naturally occurring life bacteria strains and is a great like switch for things like sour cream or you know, something to give your meal a bit of like Tang and and flavour to it. So absolutely yes for gut health, great for regularity. It's a it's a quick buy for me. Buy or make? Speaker 2 Buy How do you make kafia? Sorry. Speaker 1 Excuse my ignorance, did you know I don't even know how to make it myself? I've made plenty of kombucha in my day, but kafia I'm yet to delve into but I've heard that it's it's relatively straightforward if you have the time and the patience for it. Speaker 2 Next we have. Speaker 1 Sauerkraut, that's another buy, but a buy depending on the type that you're getting. It's also another thing that you can make yourself as well if you if you again have the time and the patience for. Speaker 2 It, do you have any brands that you personally love for the Sauerkraut or anything that listeners could look on the label like? Any red flags on the Sauerkraut label to look out for? Speaker 1 The things that I look for is just the basics. Minimal ingredient list is is preferred. So you just want to look for things like the actual vegetables, you know, herbs and spices, all fine. They're great to add to it as well. So just kind of looking for the basic minimal ingredient list. Next, kombucha, another buy for me, but again, it actually depends. So a lot of the commercially available kombuchas now, they are adding a few extra things in there that you don't need to like artificial sweeteners. I'm seeing a lot of ingredients now being added to commercial kombucha's that don't need to be there. Kombucha's actually quite naturally sweet once you've you've fermented it properly. Most of the sugar has been absorbed in that process, but it still retains a little bit of that sweetness. So I don't think you need to add any additional stuff to it. We also know that artificial sweeteners can have a negative effect on our gut bacteria and the composition of the bacteria there. So it's kind of like you're doing good, but then you're also adding something that that's not quite, quite good for your gut microbiome. So yes, to kombucha. Watch out for the artificial sweeteners on the label. And yeah, I would make it yourself as well. It's super easy to make. And that's something that I've I've done a lot before in the past as well. It's good fun. Speaker 2 Nice. How do you make it again? Excuse my ignorance. Speaker 1 So you need to get yourself a vessel. That's the one thing you need. But the most important thing you need is, is something called a Scobie, which if you Google images of it, it looks absolutely disgusting. But that's essentially the starter ingredient for kombucha. It's the, the, the massive bacteria that starts your kombucha. Then you add in some tea, you add in some sugar, some water and you you cover it with a bit of cloth so it can breathe. Still you're not stifling it. And then you leave it for depending on where you live in Brisbane, you did not need to leave it very long because it was so hot. Over here in winter, you would need to leave it for a good couple of weeks and then you can do something called the second fermentation where you take the brew that you have and then you can put them into to smaller glass bottles. And that's the fun part. You can add in some frozen raspberries, some ginger, some turmeric. That's where you can add your flavors to it. That's also the part where it becomes like bubbly and sort of like carbonated. So that will take another week to do. But yeah, I mean, look up the recipe. There was like plenty online. But it is it is good fun. Speaker 2 That seems like a hobby I can really get behind actually. Like. Speaker 1 A therapeutic, yeah. Speaker 2 Nice ginger. Speaker 1 Ginger yes absolutely by great in terms of you know adding diversity to your meals. I have seen a lot online about it being used you know, take ginger before your meals for digestion. There is a very very small amount of evidence to suggest that it can be beneficial for things like indigestion or dyspepsia. I would say if you enjoy it, just have any time of the day, you don't need to time it just before your meals. It's a great addition to have. It's also great in pregnancy. So it it there is some evidence that it can reduce nausea and vomiting in pregnancy as well. So absolutely buy for all use cases and flavor. Speaker 2 The whole timing thing is if we need to make our health and Wellness routines any more complex, you know, like if you want to have the ginger, have the ginger. Like you don't need to be timing it. Super super, super strict. Speaker 1 Exactly. And if you hate it, don't eat it. It's not worth it. Speaker 2 Love probiotics and prebiotics? Speaker 1 Buy and buy, buy no, buy and buy. Definitely. However, when we look at the probiotic side, the evidence we're seeing is is still constrained to very specific use cases. So I think people look at a probiotic these days and they see it as A1 size fits all solution. Where as we know and The Who have also come out with the same set of guidelines for I think 4 very specific use cases in Women's Health in for infants, for antibiotic use and for immune health. They are the four evidence based use cases for when we should be taking a probiotic. Everything outside of that, and particularly the ones that you see, you know, reduces anxiety, helps you feel calmer, you know, a gut brain axis probiotic. The the evidence is just not there yet. And people are taking these things but spending so much money on them as well. And there's really very, very little evidence to show that it's that's working in that way. There will be a time potentially where that is expanded, but for now I would say buy when you need it and bye bye for everything else. And then on the prebiotic side by all the time, and I'm slightly biased because I do a lot of research in the prebiotic fiber space, but it is the food for your gut bacteria. It is the only thing that they can break down and provide these really important substances from. Without prebiotic fiber in your diet, then your gut bacteria essentially starve and they die off. And we know that the gut microbiome is key to everything that's happening into our body. So without giving your body the right types of fiber, the right types of prebiotic fiber specifically, then we're essentially killing off all of our our native gut bacteria. I think people do get confused that prebiotics can be found in natural foods as well, like onion and garlic, leeks, green bananas and oats. So it is, it is found in everyday foods but people do struggle to get enough prebiotics in their diet and that's where a supplement can definitely help. So bye for sure. Speaker 2 The whole reason we introduced this section was because you know, your financial health is so important to your Wellness as well. And if you're just buying all these products that ultimately just make you stressed out and don't work, then that can have such a big impact on your stress. How Your Gut and Brain Communicate Bi-Directionally So thank you very much for clearing a lot of those are what actually is the gut brain axis and how is gut health and the brain linked? Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a, it's a great question and obviously my favorite area of research to talk about. Essentially the the gut and the brain are connected bi directionally. So there's constant signals coming from the gut that are communicated to the brain within seconds. And similarly, there's also many, many different signals coming from the brain that are communicating to the gut. And the way I like to think about it is, you know, when I used to call up my friends at school, we'd kind of just like shout over the top of each other, like we just wanted to get the last word in. That's kind of what these two organs are doing. They're just sort of like screaming messages at each other constantly. So it's this bi directional relationship and the way we like to talk about it is sort of the top down communication, which comes from, you know, if you're feeling stressed or anxious or low in mood. They're the signals coming from the brain emerging in the gut, but there's also the bottom up signals as well. So that's things like inflammation in the gut, your bacteria sending signals, appetite and hormone signals. They're constantly being communicated to the brain to update the body and to to change things if we need to. There's a, a really nice example that I like to use from, you know, that that top down interaction, which is stress. And I think it's particularly relevant because in the UK we're living in a stress epidemic. I think last year they took a survey of people in the UK and 81% of women have been stressed to the point where they can't cope at some point in the year. We look at that in men and it's around 67%. So that's still really high, but there's still this massive gap between the two and there's clearly something happening here. You know, social pressure, work pressure, family pressure, all of these things contribute to this, to this really big issue which is stress. And we know that when you are stressed, then those signals will be communicated to the rest of your body, and in particular it comes back to your gut. And I think the, the metaphor that really resonates with a lot of people is the, you know, the fight or flight response in a really stressful, acute, stressful situation. Your body is trying to find safety and to avoid that threat. And you know, the, the adaptive property of stress is that if you see a snake or you see a tiger, then you need blood diverted to your muscles into your brain to run away from that and to escape the threat in the same breath. All that blood is being diverted away from your gut because you don't need to digest, you know, your pistachio croissant from a couple of hours ago. You just need to get the hell out of there. So a lot of the motility that we see happening in the gut, a lot of those natural contractions, a lot of the secretions of hormones and different substances, all of that is slowed down dramatically in acute stressful situations, which then results in Constipation in a lot of pain, in a lot of bloating. We also know that stress influences the way that we perceive pain. So cramping and a lot of like abdominal pain happens to occur. And again, it's happening more often in, in women. So that's the, I guess the top down relationship in a, in a stress example, but there's also the, the inverse relationship as well, in that your gut is having a huge effect on how you experience stress, on your mood, on your anxiety, even on things like memory and cognitive function as we age. And a lot of that we now know is coming down to the types of bacteria that you have in your gut. So I think for for people that aren't familiar with the gut microbiome, there are trillions of bacteria, viruses, Archaea, nematodes, all of these microorganisms living throughout your whole gastrointestinal tract. And the largest population of those occur in your colon, which is towards the end of your, your gut, about 1.5 kilos worth of bacteria, which actually is about the same size as your brain, which was a nice statistic that I'd give to the neuroscientists that I'd work with in the lab just to humble them slightly. But these bacteria, they're not just freeloaders. They're not just hanging around living within your gut. They're contributing in a really meaningful way to your health. There's never been a time where humans have existed without our microbes. They have evolved with us and to the point where we've sort of like delegated specific roles to them. For example, we can't even break down fiber from the foods that we're eating. We've sort of delegated that role to our gut bacteria to be like, yeah, you've got a handle on that. You take care of it, which is why they're hugely important. But also they produce neurotransmitters and they produce different chemicals and substances and one of those which is particularly important is a substance called butyrate, which is a type of short chain fatty acid. So butyrate is only produced when your gut bacteria breakdown fibre from food and as a byproduct of that, that digestion, that breaking down process, they produce butyrate in different amounts. We do know that butyrate is a really strong anti-inflammatory substance, but it also can act on various nerves. And we know that the gut is deeply innovative by vagal afferents, which is that vagal nerve projection which connects the brain to many different organs in the body. So we know that butyrate can actually synapse onto those nerve endings and they can make communication with the brain within seconds. So they can emerge within this brain stem region called the nucleus tractus solitarius and then those signals emerge through subcortical regions to higher cortical regions to areas like the insular cortex and also the prefrontal cortex, which are involved in things like emotion, stress, threat and safety and also then your decision making processes and and what you do with that information. So we have established quite a strong direct and indirect relationship with butyrate and how we perceive stress, mood, and anxiety. So there's really good evidence to show that that's the strongest and fastest way that our gut bacteria can communicate with the brain. We also know that these substances can leave the gut and travel throughout the bloodstream. So things like butyrate and tryptophan, which is a precursor to serotonin that can actually travel in the blood to different organs in the body, including interacting with the blood brain barrier interface, which is that gatekeeper to the brain. So it allows things like oxygen and glucose and amino acids into the brain, but stops pathogens in. It also allows things like tryptophanin, which is the precursor to serotonin. I've just kind of like thrown a whole lot all at once, but that's kind of the where we're at in terms of the research around how your gut bacteria can influence the brain and how the brain can so influence the gut as well. Speaker 2 That statistic really stuck with me. About how many? How a higher percentage of women was 80? Some. Speaker 1 Yeah, 81 percent, 81. Speaker 2 Percent of women have experienced stress to the point where they can't cope, which was lack more than 70, 70% of men and it. Speaker 1 Doesn't less and it was like 60 something percent. Speaker 2 60% gosh. And because I think that obviously the reason I started this podcast is because I'm so, so, so passionate about Women's Health and actually the Women's Health does not just mean vaginas and vulvas and breasts. Women's Health incorporates all these other stresses that are on women, the cultural stresses that exist on women. You know the way that women are twice as likely to experience anxiety than men, The unique experiences women may particularly have with that girl. When you mentioned tryptophan, we just did an episode about PMS and PMDD. Making sure that you're eating some good sources of tryptophan or good foods that can potentially help with PMS and PMDD symptoms. Addressing IBS, PCOS, and Endometriosis in Women Are there any particular issues you see commonly amongst female when it comes to the gut brain access? Speaker 1 Oh hugely. There are I think across many different conditions, gut health conditions, there is consistently a higher population of women affected than men. So celiac disease for example is is a good example of that. IBS is another huge 1. So we know that IBS disproportionately effects women more than men. And while that relationship is still a little bit murky, we do know that stress is such a huge factor towards your IBS symptoms. And given the fact that there's more stressed out women, that kind of makes a lot of sense to us. So yes, IBS is definitely one, but there's also specific female conditions that coincide quite closely with gut health conditions as well. So two specific ones are endometriosis and PCOS. So both of those conditions we often see significant GI disruption as well. So they're often accompanied by, you know, bloating, pain, cramping, Constipation, diarrhea. That is not an uncommon relationship that we see. And we do know that particularly in things like PCOS, if you look at their gut bacteria, there's very different types of of bacteria we see. And especially we see a lower prevalence of the butyrate producing bacteria in the gut. And given that we know butyrate is a, a strong anti-inflammatory substance, then that could be exacerbating some of the, the symptoms that we see as part of the PCOS profile. And also for endometriosis, which also has a really strong inflammatory component as well. So I'd say it's, it's working in both ways. We see female related conditions where they're also suffering with, with gut health conditions. But some of the classic gut health conditions and diseases like celiac disease, even inflammatory bowel disease and IBS, we do see higher prevalences in in females. Speaker 2 It makes it so much harder for a lot of women who have PCOS or endometriosis and they go to see their doctor. A common thing those women will hear is it's just IBS or it's just anxiety. And #1 I don't think anything should ever be just IBSIBS is a really irritating condition to live with. And so is anxiety. But #2 where those things often coexist, it can be difficult to separate those those two things for for those women and, you know, possibly for the doctors as well. Speaker 1 Yeah, and frustrating, right, To to be told, oh, it's just IBS. And here's a pamphlet for you on what foods to avoid, which is usually the low FODMAP diet, which then people go down this rabbit hole of restricting food groups, taking away all of the the high FODMAP foods. So, you know, again, it's the onions, the garlics, the artichokes, grapefruits and vegetables, which is just going to make the issue worse, right? Because you're taking away the food source for your, for your beneficial gut bacteria, that's going to create a cascade of different problems long term as well. So yeah, a lot of the time you do go to the GP and you leave frustrated, more anxious and more stressed than you were before, which is, yeah, it's awful. Speaker 2 Yeah, something I wish I'd included in the buy or buy by section is butyrate supplements. What do you think of butyrate supplements? Speaker 1 Bye bye for sure. Really if if you've ever like smelt A butyrate supplement it because it's, it's essentially an acid, but it smells almost like vomit. So it's really hard to consume. But also a lot of the research using butyrate supplements, they're giving doses of around 20 capsules a day or they're delivering it directly to the colon. So we do see really good benefits when butyrate is provided directly to the colon. So not taken orally, but in the cases where you do take it orally, the doses are so high that no one can realistically be taking that amount of butyrate in your day. And of course it's awful to take as well. And there's this whole discussion around like, yeah, exogenous butyrate, which is external butyrate taken in a supplement versus endogenous butyrate, which is the the butyrate produced by your gut bacteria naturally and within their their normal ecosystem. We do know that butyrate, it's better to have endogenously produced because we know that the gut bacteria also do more than produce butyrate, right? They're always chatting to each other, they're sharing resources, you know, oh, do you need a bit of extra butyrate for whatever you're doing over there? So they're sharing things, they're communicating. It's like this lovely network. So just giving butyrate as a supplement without the bacteria doing all their lovely activities together is kind of is, is not the point really. We want to support the whole ecosystem to work symbiotically, like really nicely together. Speaker 2 It feels like a lot of modern day Wellness is just trying to bypass the effects of a stressful, fast-paced life. You know, obviously it takes more time to do a home cooked meal with lots of fiber. And if you're in a job that's very demanding or live in a very fast-paced lifestyle, it's quicker to take a supplement. But it feels as though our body is more intelligent than that, and trying to take a shortcut just ultimately never ends up giving us the same results as actually focusing on the boring, boring, boring basics, you know? Speaker 1 Yeah, it is. And it's also people, myself included. Like when when I've gone through really stressful periods, I try and like take control of the situation. So I, I almost do more and like add on different things and it really just over complicates the routine and often makes things even worse. It's really dull and boring advice. But often when you're feeling out of control, you're feeling stressed or potentially you've received with diagnosis and it's really overwhelming. It's often easier to for a second to take a step back to kind of strip those extra things from your routine and your diet and just work out, you know what's going to work. Like you said, like let your body assist with the process naturally, not try and you know buy a £50 butyrate supplement and add in this, this and this and all start them all at once and then feel worse a week later. Speaker 2 I'm very excited to show you a TikTok that I would love your opinions on in our section. Real or real like Instagram real. But first, you are a very successful researcher. I'd imagine that comes with a lot of time demands yourself. What are your top tips for other high achiever women who once look after their gut health but also have a lot going on in their life and maybe a quiet time pool? The 5 F's for Gut Health and Night Shift Tips Yeah, it's the advice that I usually give to to people is the five FS of gut health. The first one, which again, I sound like a broken record, but fiber, fibre is one of those things that is fundamental to anyone starting out on their gut health journey. However, you do have to start cautiously with fibre. So if you're new to gut health, start incorporating different types of fruits, nuts, seeds, vegetables in small amounts over your over your day. So that could be, you know, buying a mixed nut variety and sprinkling that onto your yogurt in the morning or trying out two Kiwi fruits, for example, whatever it might be, slowly build up so that you've got that plant based diversity is the foundation to your diet. That is the first thing that I would do. The second one, which I've already spoken about as well, is fluid. So plenty of water to help your gut operate the way that it should and to to help fiber do its amazing benefits of sweeping through the gut like your broom. So that's fiber and fluid. The third one is fitness. So I don't mean like being really fit, but just generally any movement that you enjoy doing so whether that's, you know, walking your dog or Pilates or endurance running, whatever floats your boat. We do know that your gut bacteria are very much influenced by the exercise that you do, which can have then secondary benefits on things like your metabolic health, your energy, your mood, your cognitive function. So fitness is is the third F the 4th 1 is feeling calm. So stress we know, as we've talked about is a huge disruptor of your gut function and your gut bacteria. So finding any way that you can relax and unwind, have a good romanticy book, take a bath, listen to some music, whatever, whatever helps that is going to be another foundational level for your gut health. The fifth one, I can't even remember what the fifth one was. I think, I think I have used this one in the past, which is kind of like a fun one, which is like a, a furry friend. So we know that having a pet like a dog or a cat, particularly if you have a young child, is amazing for their immune system and their risk of developing allergies in the first few years of life. So that's like kind of like a fun F. Speaker 2 To add, to finish, I'm going to add, I'm going to let my boyfriend know about that one snipe because I've been campaigning for a for a puppy for a very long time and I have I needed you to tell me that Now I have like I cannot. That's my PowerPoint presentation of why we need a dog. Speaker 1 There is so many benefits, blood pressure, stress. Yeah, very friend. Yeah. Speaker 2 Before we come on surreal for real, I am going to go through a couple of community questions. This one is for shift workers. How can we adjust meals for night shifts? Speaker 1 I mean, shift workers is really tough because if you're working particularly overnight shifts, your gut is not set up for that. And we do know that there's a strong relationship between gut health and your natural circadian rhythm. But there are things that we can do, like obviously people have jobs where it's it's mandatory, like you have to be working your overnight shifts. You as a doctor probably have have gone through that yourself. But there are things that we can do to help manage our gut health while while doing those long overnight shifts. The first one is before your night shift. That is the key window to have a really balanced wholesome meal. So something with good quality of protein, plenty of of fibre, so vegetables, your whole grains, something with healthy fats in there as well. So really having good foundation before you start your your shift. Then throughout the shift, having lighter snacks. So we want to avoid a lot of sugar, a lot of processed foods because that will create that that glucose roller coaster up and down your shift, which we don't necessarily want to rely on instead of the things like fruit and yogurt, mixed nuts, all of those, those lighter foods that will help sustain your energy across the shift. The, the other thing that is so important is hydration. So drinking water, I know it's so difficult during overnight shifts, but the more water you can drink is the better you'll feel the next day and you know, the week after caffeine's another one. So if we can try and limit caffeine as well. I know it's like the one thing that people turn to when they've got an overnight shift is the caffeine and the energy drinks to keep them going. But long term it can have more damage than than benefits. It's more like a Band-Aid solution than anything else. And then the final one is, is trying to avoid a really heavy meal just before you go back to sleep after your shift because we know that that's going to impact things like sleep quality and also digestive function. So it's, it is really hard to manage. I fully appreciate that. But there are some things that that you can do to try and help your guts while working. Speaker 2 That just reminds me takes me right back to it being 3:00 AM looking at the clock thinking God I'm really lagging right now. I've got another what, 5 hours left of my shift reaching for I Oh, there was this is it time out chocolate bar? Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 A time out chocolate bar and a coffee was to get me through and then I'd come back home from my shift and I probably have like quite a Big Breakfast. But yeah, so I was doing everything, everything wrong because because I think when I feel myself getting tired, I would be like, I need some sugar, I need some sugar. Whereas actually having maybe those nuts or you know that that might have been a bit more sensible thing. Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's also the the harder decision to make at the time, right? She's like, I need the energy like now, like yesterday, which, yeah, it's really hard to do. Managing Cravings and Crafting a Healthy Smoothie Another community question that we've got is how does eating certain foods affect your brain and how to deal maybe with cravings? Speaker 1 With cravings, there's actually really cool research to show that your gut microbiome influences what types of food you crave, like higher sugar food, higher fat food. We're just beginning to to understand how that relationship works. But we also know that a really key determinant of cravings is your blood sugar control. So again, going back to the the shift work example, if you've had your time out and your coffee, you're probably going to have a massive. Peak in your blood sugar and you'll feel great, you'll feel like energized, but then an hour later you're going to have that massive crash because you're not having that consistent blood sugar response that generally is is quite strongly linked to subsequent cravings the rest of the day. So we often hear people say, oh, I've got the 3:00 PM slump. Yes, that's when they grab the things like them, the biscuits, the chocolate, all that quick releasing glucose to help get you back to the point where you're you're feeling good again. That kind of puts you into that cycle of blood sugar, high blood sugar, crash the roller coaster. So the cravings are very strongly tied to that. There's a couple of things that you can do, and I'm going to say it again, but fiber. Fiber reduces your blood sugar response. Instead of having that massive peak, you'll have that really consistent effect over time. Also, having, you know, a bit of protein in your meals as well will help blunt that blood sugar response. So that's a really easy and a really boring way to sort of curb the cravings is, is to make sure you're not jumping on that sugar roller coaster as frequently. There's a whole lot of research around like specific food nutrients that are impacting the brain. So some do more than others. Another one aside from fiber, which I love is Omega threes, which we know can have fantastic benefits on things like cognitive function and memory and even, I think mood to a certain degree as well. So I always say get your oily fish in at least a couple of times a week, you walnut, all of those healthy omega-3 fatty acids are going to be fantastic for your brain. So instead of, I mean, we always see the headlines, you know, 10 walnuts reduces, you know, fatigue and whatever it might be. But instead of focusing more on the foods, it's more on the, the nutrient profile that those foods provide. And we can generally get that from many different types of nuts and seeds and grains and and all the the boring stuff really, but the great stuff. Speaker 2 I would like to hear your opinion on my morning smoothie because obviously I think the smoothies got a bit of a bad Rep in terms of the sugar spikes and whatnot. So I I started my morning smoothie a bit rogue probably have a little bit berries in there. I will then put in. This is the rogue part bit courgette. Speaker 1 Love it. Speaker 2 Makes it a bit creamy but then also you get that fibre in and it's kind of I think balances out the sugar load of Greek yoghurt. Maybe I'll change that to some kaffir since this podcast, couple of chia seeds and then maybe like a little bit of honey or whatever. And in my head, I think that that if I'm in a rush, I think, OK, the Greek yogurt's got a little bit of protein, The courgettes got some fiber veggies, makes it really nice and creamy. And then the berries, we've got the polyphenols. What do you think of smoothies? And do you think the sometimes the narrative around smoothies being quite sugar filled is is warranted or Yeah, what's your thoughts? Speaker 1 I mean, that is Faye. That is like a 10 out of 10. That is perfect. You've got, yeah, you've got berries in there. Love that. You've got chia seeds in there too. Greek yogurt. Great. I mean, you can get Greek yogurt with live cultures included in it. So as long as it's got that on the label, then you've got both protein and and some natural probiotics in there. Courgettes love can't even notice it. You're getting a sneaky veg in there. I love that approach. I've heard people also add things like cauliflower. Yes and even you know broccoli and frozen kale and frozen spinach if you're short on time. Also great to get you your sneaky veg in. You could also add some like additional plant based diversity as well. So flax seeds are really good addition or if you do have, you know, a nut and seed jar filled with many different types, you can have a scoop of that and add in, you know, 5 different plants all at once. A really low effort way to get some more plant based diversity. But yeah, that is perfect. Could switch up for kefir, but but your yogurt's also a good choice. I think a lot of the bad rap comes from the commercially available smoothies on the market. So the ready to drink ones where very low fiber, very low vegetables, ironically, and very low protein. They're the ones that can cause that that blood sugar spike and then the crash a couple of hours later. But if you're making it at home and you're including, you know, some healthy fats, some proteins and fiber, it's perfect. It's such a good option for for busy, hard working women. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's it. When sometimes I don't have a chance to sit down, which I'd prefer to sit down and really take a moment for my breakfast. But you know, as a busy girl it doesn't always happen and that's my go to. You mentioned the seed and diversity mix. So I made an Instagram reel maybe like 2 years ago where I showed people how I make my diversity job and basically all I do is I go to the nearest supermarket, I grab what? However many I can afford or whatever is on offer because I know that these costs can add up. If you're getting a high diversity of things, put them, maybe blitz them a little bit so maybe they're a little bit broken down so they can go into a smoothie a little bit easier will be sprinkled on my porridge. And what's really interesting is I get messages almost on a weekly basis of people messaging me saying, oh, I know you made this real, but I can't find it from two years ago. And every, well, I try to reply to as many as I can and just say it's really like it's, it doesn't need to be overcomplicated, you know, buy whatever you can, stick it in a jar, maybe blitz it up a little bit. But do you have a personal like diversity jar or diversity routine that is maybe a bit more complicated than mine? Speaker 1 No, I don't. I do have the diversity job, but it's really as simple as you describe it, right? Like there's no recipe or quantities that you have to follow. And nuts are expensive, right? Like, you do have to look for the ones that are on sale sometimes or even like, I've forgotten about a pack of nuts in the back of my cupboard there then added to it. You know, the seeds on special, any sort of other, you know, fun thing I find on special, it really ends up being different every time I do it. But that's the beauty of it is that if you don't have a set recipe and you're getting 10 different selections of nuts every time, then that's more diversity that you're adding to your guts and to your microbiome ecosystem. So I would say it's even better not to have a recipe. Just go buy. Yeah. What's going on special that week, what you have in the cupboard, what you have a craving for, Seasonal like pecans for December, Whatever you want. There's really no no rules the better I think. Exposing Myths About Bone Broth and Leaky Gut Perfect. We're going to come on to a little bit about inflammation, but first I have, is it real or real? Are we ready? Speaker 3 Weird holistic things I do in a day as a holistic chef Part 1. I start every day with an olive oil lemon Shaw on an empty stomach. I've been doing this for years now, ever since I moved to Italy. Olive oil is packed with polyphenols and healthy fads that are amazing for your overall gut health and for lowering information in the body. This one day ritual has significantly changed my health for the better. Plus, it's just fun and delicious to take every morning. The next thing that I swear by is rebounding. You probably heard of it for lymphatic drainage, but let me tell you, the hype is real. Draining your lymph is a key to reducing swelling and puffiness, but it's also incredibly important for overall health, as a lymphatic system is essential for maintaining fluid balance, immune function, nutrient transport, waste removal, and tissue repair. Plus, it's literally a mini trampoline. It's great for letting your inner child play. Now on to my daily homemade bone broth baby that I can't go a date without. It's helped me repair my gut lining, balance my hormones and make my skin glow from the inside out. Few years ago I struggled with chronic acne and full body hives and this collagen rich, nutrient dense drink helped me come back to myself in every way possible. The key is to let bones with some meat, simmer in a pot for a few hours with herbs and leftover veggies from the week and you'll have the best daily skin healing elixir. Lastly, I give all my fruits and veggies a bath before storing them in the fridge which the veggie bath is filled with plant based ingredients that clean off any pesticides residue and keep the produce super fresh. My food feels so hybrid rational after this process because I know I'm not consuming anything unwanted in my meals. Anyway, that's it for now. Check back for Part 2. Speaker 2 Three things. So we have the olive oil lemon shop, we have the bone broth, and then we have the washing your veggies. Dr. Caitlin, opinions please. OK, first. Speaker 1 One is the lemon olive oil shot. It's it's one of those things it's like it's overcomplicating your routine. You do not need to be adding all of these time specific recipes, specific things to your diet. Why not just have a salad and put some lemon juice and olive oil on it? We know that lemon has has great benefits. It's got, you know, wonderful nutrients in it, as does olive oil. You know, I absolutely advocate for having olive oil every day, but having it like as a shot in the morning, there's, yeah, when she says it was delicious, I was like, really, there's no need. There's no need to have that for sure. Just have it as part of your day. If she loves it, fantastic, go for it. But in terms of like a digestive benefit, there's very little evidence to show that that will do a whole lot on an empty stomach. Have it with a meal. Speaker 2 I am obviously, I think a lot of gut health, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of gut health, a lot of Wellness trends. I feel like a very contradictory in terms of, you know, how many decades did we spend Italian women to I'll have the salad, but hold the oil, you know, and the eating disorder culture and their diet culture of, you know, hold the oil, hold the oil, keep the oil away from me. And then now we're telling people to have a shot of olive oil. Like what? Yeah, just add. It's confusing, You know, it is confusing and all of these ways it almost separates us from just enjoying our food. Like we're allowed to enjoy a meal and not just have like a specific ingredient shot it, get it down as quick as possible just for this, you know, function. Speaker 1 Yeah, food should be joyful, not structured and regimed. And I think that it also going back to that area of like, control. And I think people will see this and be like, she looks so happy and healthy, what's wrong with me? I'm doing exactly what she's doing and I'm seeing no benefits. Then it's just really awful for these people to think that they're doing something wrong or, you know, they're not following the route the the perfect routine. And that's also what gets me really going about her homemade bone broth, which I'm like, well, no, actually there's very little evidence that that is going to heal your gut lining. Also the term heal your gut lining I have a real issue with, but that's a separate conversation. The bone broth and the the collagen to have your perfect skin. It's a really awful message to be telling women because we do know that particularly for women, there are so many things that contribute to skin issues and, and acne that are not related to food. They're related to hormones and medications and medical conditions. So to really be telling people that you need to make this, you know, 2 hour long process for your bone broth is, is really disheartening for people, I think. And it, it makes them feel, I don't know, not good enough or that they don't have that, you know, that perfect lifestyle. Because honestly, who has that amount of time to be making your bone broth or to be pre washing your vegetables to I don't even know what the words she used, but yeah, very little evidence. She looked like she was having a great time jumping up and down. And that's a lovely form of movement. So like, if she enjoys that, then then great. I'm not the person to be telling her not to jump on a trampoline. But in terms of lymphatic processes, I think that that again is is very little evidence to to support that rigorous routine. Speaker 2 What about the wash washing the veggies for pesticides? Do we have much evidence on pesticides and gut health? Speaker 1 In the EU and the UK, we are relatively strict around how we use pesticides and what we're using, so I think we need to kind of remove the fear mongering a little bit. Yes, you can wash your vegetables, get the dirt off them, clean them before you start using them, but do you need to soak them for hours before storing them away? I would say no. And if anything that probably reduces the shelf life of your vegetables a little bit as well. Having that additional moisture introduced to them and then leaving them in the fridge potentially that could that could make make them good waste a little bit earlier. So I would say no wash them before you cook them but I wouldn't be too scared or or worried about. Speaker 2 About doing that, that's a really interesting point on the intersection between the practicalities of life and Wellness trends. Because most of us are working a full time job, we don't have time for a lot of these things. We have to think about what is practical for our busy lives as well. You mentioned the whole the phrase healing your gut lining as problematic, and that's a whole other conversation. Let's get into it and then we'll come on to inflammation. What are your thoughts on that phrase? Speaker 1 So we often hear the words healing your gut lining or leaky gut is the really common one and that there is a condition which is called intestinal permeability, which generally people refer to as leaky gut. So inside of your guts you have these cells and they have tight junctions between them to make sure that nothing leaves the gut that shouldn't. So things like toxins, pathogens, infections, they're all kept within the gut, which technically is external to the body, but it also allows things to be absorbed that should be like nutrients and, and other things that we need sometimes and, and for many, many different reasons. The, the tight junctions between your gut cells become a little bit loose or a little bit leaky. That is not a condition in itself. That is a symptom of something else that's happening in your body. So it's really important to be checked out by a healthcare professional to work out exactly what's going on with you and your specific needs. The idea that we can have a gut healing protocol or we can heal the lining of your gut, it's really based on a lot of these nonsense trends like bone broth healing. In reality, the way to keep those gut health really full and healthy. Again, butyrate is the food for your colonocytes. It's the exclusive food source for your colonocytes. So the more of these beneficial substances that your gut bacteria are producing, the healthier your gut lining will be. We also know that there is a layer of mucus that surrounds your colonocytes as well. And mucus is really important for many different gut health benefits. But if you're not feeding your gut bacteria with the food that it needs, so for example, a diversity of different plants, your gut bacteria can actually eat the mucus around your gut lining. It feeds off that mucus, which can then have really bad effects on, you know, the gut permeability and other downstream effects. So it's a really scary message in some ways. But if you're not feeding your gut bacteria, then they'll start eating you and your mucus lining. So there's, there's a really simple way of doing that again. And it's to increase your fiber and to increase your plants in your diet and, you know, not necessarily going down the route of creating your own bone broth for hours and hours. The Truth About Gut Inflammation and Its Impact Coming on to inflammation, that is a word that I think is thrown around on social media and is probably not always explained in the proper way. What are your thoughts on inflammation? Specifically, what are the impacts of gut inflammation? Speaker 1 Yeah. It is a term that we see a lot and it is something that we measure in all of our clinical trials is we look at a biomarker called CRP, which is C reactive protein. And we can measure that in, in anyone healthy people, people with specific conditions. Generally we see the range is very, very low for healthy people. So when you hear about these trends online about, you know, reduce your inflammation for a healthy person without any other health condition, their CRP levels or their general inflammatory profile will be relatively low. So it's, it's, it's often a non issue for for those people. However, we are seeing a type of inflammation which is called low grade systemic inflammation. So that's very different to the acute inflammation that we might see. If you, you have a cut on your finger or if you have a, an injury where that acute inflammation is a really adaptive response to, to, you know, repair the wound side. The issue comes with something like low grade chronic inflammation, which is where you've got that that raised inflammatory markers over a long period of time. We know that is strongly connected to things like blood sugar control. So pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes often have higher inflammation. We see it in metabolic syndrome, which is those cluster of high cholesterol, increased ways to come friends, increased hypertension or hypertension. We also see it in in really severe conditions as well like inflammatory bowel disease. And that's a really good example where there is heightened level of inflammation in the gut. And in inflammatory bowel disease, which includes things like Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, they go through periods of really heightened inflammation and then periods of remission where they're fine. But in those periods of inflammation, it's really interesting because the effects aren't just isolated to the gut. Obviously they're feeling a lot of pain and the gut related symptoms. But what a lot of people don't realize is that inflammation can actually leave the lumen of the gut and travel throughout your body and, and can impact many different organs in the body. So bones for example, we see, we see joint pain in people who have IBD, skin inflammatory conditions in IBD as well. And also most importantly for our research is that we see inflammation that can manifest as a stress, anxiety and and reductions in cognitive function. We know that inflammatory cytokines can interact with the blood brain barrier and influence something called neuro inflammation. And that is what we think is, is a key driver of things like low mood when you see someone going through a flare up. And it's really interesting because that that phenomenon actually has a word attached to it and it's called a sickness behaviour. So sickness behaviour refers to, you know, withdrawal, lack of, you know, wanting to socialize, flat emotions, so not getting enjoyment from from day-to-day things. It's this. This collection of symptoms that people experience when they have that really high level of inflammation in the body. They've even done studies where they give people typhoid vaccinations, which involves giving them a little bit of the, the disease itself. And they find that there's people go through periods of low mood and wanting to sort of like remove themselves from situations, which is the body being like, we need to protect and like remove ourselves from, from the community. And during COVID, we also saw people who had COVID also had those same sickness behaviours, that profile of withdrawal behaviours as well. So that I guess is, is the one thing that that is potentially key to highlight is that inflammation is not just isolated to the gut. It can affect everywhere in the body, including the brain. Do we need to be fear mongering about inflammation though on social media is a different question. I think that for the majority of people inflammation is is probably not an issue. If you are moving your body, if you're managing your stress, if you're sleeping well, if you're eating well, then then that maybe is is less of a an issue for you. That's something to keep in mind for sure. Speaker 2 The area that I found really, really most interesting in Women's Health and hopefully what I would love to do my PhD on, is like PMS and PMDD and there's really interesting emergent evidence about the role of neuroinflammation in PMS and PMDD. Interesting in the way that you've explained it. It's really useful. What are your thoughts on a lot of social media posts that talk about anti-inflammatory foods or what's the evidence behind that? And would you recommend any of these anti-inflammatory foods? Speaker 1 So there is definitely some evidence for specific foods having anti-inflammatory effects. We know Omega threes are really good example of that. You're again your oily fish, your walnuts, your chia seeds, all of those are fantastic protective effects on the body and the brain. Again, fiber and the production of butyrate will have really strong anti-inflammatory effects as well, which is fantastic. So there is definitely scientific merit in the idea that some foods have anti-inflammatory properties. What I often find on social media is that it's put into a wildly different context. So I've had a friend recently message me she has endometriosis and she found this anti-inflammatory protocol on TikTok and she asked should I be following this? And I was like one of those examples where you're like, should I know this? Like what is this diet like? I was never taught this. And when I looked into it, it's, it's almost like another exclusion diet form where people are restricting potatoes and starchy foods and whole grains and specific fruits and vegetables that for some reason have been picked out as as inflammatory or pro inflammatory. And I think that's where I have the issue is that people are then unnecessarily restricting the foods from their diet and restricting the food source for your gut bacteria, which then will have more of a, a long term pro inflammatory effect than just having a, a normal, healthy, diverse diet and, and not worrying about it. So I think the the concern I have is those anti-inflammatory protocols and detoxes that I see on on TikTok. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. We've got another community question. This is about IBS and IBD, which I know you've done a really good job of explaining already. For those suffering from IBSIBD or related conditions, is stress, low mood, anxiety a trigger for their symptoms and if so, why? Speaker 1 Absolutely, yeah. We, we definitely see for actually for both of them quite, quite commonly, stress is often a trigger for a IBD flare up and also for IBS. While there's no inflammatory component to the disease, stress is definitely that, that fight or flight response. And that is creating that cascade of, you know, cortisol release, which is then influencing, you know, appetite, hormones, but also from a, a gut motility perspective. And some of the really common symptoms we save daily with IBS, which is the pain, the bloating, the changes in, in bowel movements. That all comes from that, that response of we need to be safe and we need to remove ourselves from that threat. So often all those natural processes, the contractions of the gut, the motility of the gut, all of those things slow down with stress. So it's very, very common that people who are going through a period of stress often find that they either going more frequently to the toilet or things stop completely. And it's just that that natural body responds. But it's, yeah, it's pretty, pretty irritating for people. Gut Serotonin, Dairy-Free Options, and Sweetener Choices Yeah, as if it's not bad enough to be stressed anyway, then all these other symptoms come along. Another community question if serotonin is produced in the gut, what does that mean and how can we act accordingly? Speaker 1 It's a great question. I see this statistic thrown out everywhere, which is, you know, 95% of your serotonin is made in your gut. And that's actually accurate. The largest pool of serotonin that we have in the body is in the gut, but that is very separate from the pool of serotonin that we have in the brain. And those two pools don't interact with each other. So they're very separate. We know that serotonin is too large of a neurotransmitter to actually leave the lumen of the gut. It can't leave those those colonocytes that we were talking about earlier. Instead, they have a really important role in the gut. They help with things like motility and an appetite, so they have their own function within the gut. However, that does not necessarily mean that serotonin in the gut is not influencing the brain. We know that serotonin can actually synapse onto those vagal afferents and then they can travel to the brain to have effects indirectly, but within really short periods of time. We also know and I know that we talked about this a little bit earlier is that the precursor to serotonin is actually tryptophan. And tryptophan unlike serotonin can actually leave the gut, travel to the brain and then can be can be built up into serotonin once it's in the right spot. So there is definitely ways that, you know, we can optimize for for this. I wouldn't say that we're at the point where we have, you know, like serotonin protocols where we can like enhance that that ability. And also serotonin, by the way, has so many functions in the brain. It's not necessarily exclusively related to mood. It has several different functions. So to, to purely want to increase your serotonin levels may not be directly related to how happy you feel the next day. But again, the way that we can support those interactions that the gut is having with the brain via serotonin again is to make sure that you have a happy a healthy and diverse gut microbiome. So feeding your gut bacteria with the the plant based foods that it needs, having some fermented foods, having polyphenols, you know, watching your stress levels, sleeping well, movement, all those really boring things is actually the way to to make sure that your guts taking care of everything else. Speaker 2 Oh this is a good community question. Best food for the gut if you can't have dairy. So all that non dairy yoghurts and milks that you would recommend? Speaker 1 For gut health specifically, I do get frustrated sometimes where because online I see a lot of fear mongering around like oat milk. So this one that's going to spike your blood sugar. I'm all around, you know, have what you enjoy, but when you're choosing your plant based milk, for example, make sure that it is not with a whole list of ingredients on the back. I would also look for something that has got calcium. So fortified with calcium is really important if all of your dairy is being replaced by plant based sauces. So I would say, I mean, I drink almond milk because I love the taste, but I make sure that I get one with calcium and that there's not a list of extra stuff added to it and say that's my first piece of advice. On the yoghurt side, you can actually find plant based yoghurts that do have live cultures added to them. So even though they're not coming from that original process, they can still add in those those live probiotics. So I would look at the back of your plant based yoghurt, make sure that there's no added sugars or artificial sweeteners. And also make sure that they do have that that statement on there to say live cultures or live bacteria. And in some cases they actually list the types of bacteria that they've added back to it. So that's my, my top tip with that is, is find one where they've added the things back into it because it won't naturally occur. Speaker 2 Sweeteners. We mentioned sweeteners a lot in this episode. Before we finish, let's get into sweeteners. Do you have a list of sweeteners in your head that you avoid and a list of sweeteners that you think maybe you're a little bit better for the gut? Do you try and just have a bit of a blanket ban on sweeteners in your own in your own diet? Speaker 1 I think that I take a relatively practical approach when it comes to sweeteners as well. I think little amounts here and there are not going to be hugely negatively affecting your gut health. But for example, if you're having a couple of diet cokes every day or there are different sources of of particular like you know, protein bars and yoghurts with with added artificial sweeteners to it. I think it's the when it accumulates on a daily basis, that's where you probably need to take a step back and think, Yikes, how can I start to remove these? Because we do know that they do have quite a dramatic effect in our in our gut bacteria, but they also disrupt things like your hunger and your satiety levels as well. If your body is expecting, you know, a burst of calories to come from your protein bar and then nothing comes, then you've got a bit of insulin working its way around the body saying like, where's my glucose? And then you might be wanting that chocolate bar a couple of hours later anyway. So instead, I would say, yeah, take a practical approach. Try and identify the sources of artificial sweeteners that you're having in your day. And how can we take them back a step? Generally, I find that there's a new artificial sweetener that comes out every other week. So I find it hard to keep track of the new ones. Generally, I have a blanket. I reduce them as much as I can to the point where I actually would prefer to have sugar over artificial sweeteners. I would rather have something that is, you know, if I'm indulging in a dessert, just give me the full sugar, the full fat variety and I'm going to enjoy it mindfully and and absolutely love it. It it's not all the time, but I think when you are indulging just just enjoy it and have and have the full diversion. It's not going to have long term effects. I think again it's it's your daily habits that you need to look out for. Speaker 2 These shortcuts that we've tried to find for our body and we're slowly realizing it's not as straightforward as that, I think. Dr. Caitlin's Book Recommendation and Life Advice Yeah, for. Speaker 2 Sure. This is another really, really good one. And then I'm going to come on to the final question that I've been asking all the guests. Any book she'd recommends better understand the impact of the guts and the brain? Speaker 1 I have one book that comes to mind and it's actually a really old book, but it was the one that really got me into when I was doing my PhD. It had come out at the very same time and it was just, it was so nice to hear like what I was trying to to kind of show in the lab be echoed to to the general public. It's a book by John Cryan and it's called The Psycho Biotic Revolution. And in there they go into really nice detail and but also really user friendly and, and explains it in really nice metaphors as well. Exactly the different pathways by which your gut connects to the brain, but also highlights some really cool research around, you know, the vagus nerve. And if you give someone a fermented drink for four weeks, this is what happened. So if if there is anyone interested in in going deeper into the mechanisms and the science, I think that's a really nice place to start. Speaker 2 Beautiful. And then the final question that we've been asking all our guests, Dr. Caitlin, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25? Speaker 1 Oh gosh, by the time she was 25 that we don't actually need to optimize everything about our diet. And often times, I think we were discussing this earlier, when it comes to your gut and it comes to the effect that it can have on the brain, often less is more. And if we look after ourselves and we don't get too stressed out by things that won't matter in in a week or two weeks time, then often we can just take a step back in and do foundational things. And I know that it's not sexy or particularly interesting, but often the best advice we have for gut health is the really boring advice. So not to get swept up in the latest trends, but just to just to take the really boring advice on. I don't know if that was very. Speaker 2 Good. No, it does absolutely perfect and something I really, I feel like a broken record saying it really is the boring basics. You know, it really is. I wish I could come on here and say there's this incredible supplements that's going to kill all your all your worries and you know, whatever. And it will make up for the fact that you're not exercising, you're not being mindful, you're not reducing your stress, you know, but that's just it's not the case. It's there isn't this shortcut. It is no basic exactly, which doesn't sell. No, it's just the. Speaker 1 Middle of the road. Speaker 2 Advice that you don't have, you probably know, but yeah, that's, that's not on a diary of a CEO podcast trailer, is it? It's not the exercise. Sleep well and reduce your stress like that does not that's not going to do well. No. Exactly. Doctor Caitlin, you've been absolutely incredible. I think this is a conversation the listeners will really, really, really value because I know so many of us are living in a world where we're stressed and struggling with our mental health and understanding that there may be are changes that we could possibly make that may have a positive impact. So thank you so, so, so much for coming on. It's been absolutely wonderful. Speaker 1 Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.