GUSTAV IDEN - Shares New Secrets of The Norwegian Training Method

[Music] I actually can't believe I'm saying this, but we've got the Iron Man World Champion at Kona, not at St George, and the two times 70.3 World Champion Gustav Eden finally on the podcast. It's been five years in the making. Gustav, welcome. Thank you. How are you going? It's, it's very good. I'm an Astagood now, but now, yeah, saying five years in a making, I think that most people will have high expectation for this podcast, but I just woke up and my energy levels have not hit the roof yet. So, yeah, we'll see how energized this podcast will be, but I'm looking forward to it. How many coffees have you had to start the day? Only a double espresso today, so that's enough. It's a rest day today, so I don't want to be too crazy with the caffeine. Tell me what you did in your training yesterday to earn the rest day today. Yesterday, we had four hours on the bike with threshold in the hills, so seven times ten minutes at about three hundred and forty watts, and then in the afternoon, we did a track session with 14K. I did three times 2K at 325, six times 1K, 320, and then 10 times 400. It's a big session and a big day. How's your fitness at the moment maybe compared to what it was at the start of the year and compared to what it was before World Champs last year? My fitness level now, I would say it's not as good as before the World Championship last year, but for sure it's so much better than earlier this year. I had an okay momentum during the winter, but my bio, as you know, was not a good race. I kind of lost fitness from after-nice and I was training okay, but then I rolled my ankle in January and that took such a long time for it to heal, and I still have some, I wouldn't say pain, but I do feel it sometimes, like after a big session yesterday on the track with a lot of it in spikes, I do feel a little bit of a niggle in my ankle, but yeah, I'm in much better shape than earlier this year. I think in Cienavard, I'm going into ocean side, I ran like 30 days a week, and this week I had like 100 and 10 plus, so yeah, it's a big bump in running. It's a massive step up, and I'm hearing you talk and it just reminds me of what I think about your career so far, which is kind of like it's been a career of two parts there was the Gustav Eden before maybe 2023, 2024, and then the Gustav Eden after that, and I really want to dive into both like parts of your career and go back in time a little bit on this podcast as well, but I want to stick with the now just for now and talk about where your heads at. Are you still in love with Triathlon and trying to get the most out of your performance and the day to day training as you were inside 2018 to 2022 when you are basically unbeatable? Yeah, I think I am, but it's hard to remember your exact thoughts like four years in a past, but I do feel like I'm still chasing really hard to be the best, but as I said, I wouldn't say unbeatable, but I was on a roll for sure, and I won a non-breath race in a row like from 2019 to 2022. I won first NIS and then I won Daytona and St. George and Kona and in between there I won a lot of other like the PTO Open Canada and then yeah, from there on I didn't win in a long time, so for sure I would say it was two different parts of my career, but yeah, definitely has a lot of mental things to go from win to win to win to not be able to win anything. It's been a huge struggle, but now I'm back into it and loving it. What do you think is the biggest difference in say the version of you that was on that unbeaten streak for four years versus the version of you maybe in 2023 and 2024 when you were struggling in your performances on race day? Yeah, I wasn't only struggling on race day, that's for sure. I was struggling in a day-to-day life as well. I think that has a bigger impact on me than the few days I was racing. I did not enjoy training. Yeah, of course it has a lot to do with the death of my mother. That has a, I guess, everyone that's gone through this thing and I'm not alone in this, so it's not like a unique me thing and I know a lot of high-end triad leads that has lost their parents to cancer or something, so I know a lot of people have the same struggles, but for me it was, yeah, it was such a hard time and I think that played a huge part of my struggle, but on top of that I had an injury that wasn't able to do what I loved the most, that was running in a mountain and the only thing I could really train was swimming, but swimming when nothing works is just horrible. Like swimming in itself is bad enough but swimming when you're feeling like shit. I don't think it's any worse feelings out there and I've been feeling a lot of bad things, so I know what I'm talking about, but yeah, I think it was, yeah, it was just too much going on at the same time and I tried my best to be safe on top of it, but yeah, luckily I was able to take my time, take a couple of years and my sponsors were still with me and I didn't have any like financial struggles because that would be horrible to put on top of it, so no, that shit I have to perform in Corona in two months time to be able to survive this financially, so I'm super grateful for my sponsors to be able to stay with me because yeah, at least that was one point in my life that I didn't stress with also money. I would say that when I think about you, I think of like your racing and your training and how jovial and fun you seem to make it every time I see you on camera, on YouTube, every time I hear you talk and I'm always, I'm almost like left with this sense of jealousy that I'm not there in your training group because it seems so fun and I do think that's the side of you, everyone pictures when they think of Gustav Eden, but then to hear you talk about the struggles that you went through then and how it kind of derailed your triathlon for a little bit and no doubt really probably derailed everything in your life for a little bit, particularly with it being about a close family member in your mum. Do you, did you struggle in that period beyond triathlon to be that version of yourself who is happy, go lucky, who is fun, who is by all reports, an amazing person to be around, or was it just in your triathlon where it was showing up? No, for sure, I was struggling. I remember also doing like this high energy social media that sometimes required for sponsors, I was just feeling like a fraud, the trying to put on like this, yeah, what everyone pictures Gustav Eden to be and I had to kind of perform who I was supposed to be to sell product or whatever, that was not feeling good, that was feeling like a lie, yeah, but staying still with the group was good to be with Christian and Kenji at the time, we were outside of the national team and that was us traveling around and all of Alexander Coach to be like this small group and feeling seen and validated, yeah, was good. And where are you at now? I know you said that you feel like you're getting your form back and your training is coming to a level that's similar to Nese last year where you came second at the Iman World Championships and it seemed outside looking in that you're back in old Gustav Eden shape if not in better shape, but mentally where are you at as we sit here today compared to say 2022, 2021? Yeah, definitely I've grown and changed as a person. I am not the same as when I won Kona where nothing was a challenge and I felt like long distance was easy so that's definitely changed, but I have more respect for my competitors. That's for sure. that I know that Tristan is not linear, but for myself I would say that I'm in a really, really good position. I know that performance doesn't come for free. You have to train for every single second to be up there. And it made me grateful that I figured out I'm not just a talent. I have to really, really work to get my performance out. So it also makes me appreciate that the day-to-day life, it is hard work, but the hard work makes the performance so much better. During that period of time, did you love winning big races and did you love beating other people? Or was your love in this sport in the training and the day-to-day? Yeah, I haven't really figured it out myself even. Of course, everyone loves winning, it's not that. I would say, I think I said before that I'm the first loser who won a World Championship because I do not have a winning mentality. I am not winning of all costs. I love winning, but the financial bit is there and the attention gets around there, but it's not on a deep personal level I have to win. So it can make you digging deep sometimes a little bit more challenging, I guess. For me, I just love a good performance. I love feeling good to be in control and I love the day-to-day life. I love being outside in nature and I love trying to get better every single day and I love the challenge of it, but I don't hate winning as much as Christian hate winning, that's for sure. Yeah, losing, I think you mean there. Yeah, losing, yeah. It's actually funny because at NICE, at last year's World Championships, when you crossed the finish line, I was standing right there and I thought you looked really happy, both for yourself and for Casper. And then Christian crossed the finish line and I thought he looked fucking pissed off and I was just, I vividly remember standing there and thinking that couldn't have been more different. Now Christian, he did come around and then he looked kind of happy for you three, but the initial reaction was so different. Yeah, I think he's of course happy for Casper, for me, but he was on track to winning that race more than I was on track winning it. Like in training, going into the race, he was leading every single session and then Casper of course had some super good session, but it wasn't a surprise for either them to win. But I think I kind of won the second place more and he lost the first place a little bit more. So of course, if you look at the context of training, I had a better race than him and that it's, of course, yeah, a little bit more disappointing and also looking at how the race evolved with him leading me in Casper for basically the whole bike event and then we catching him at a very last end also makes the emotion of the finish line a little bit different. And also if you look at the context of the previous two years where I didn't even finish corner the year before and I was on the sideline watching these two years prior. I would say the second place for me was, yeah, almost the perfect comeback. Like looking back at it, now the story would have been so much cooler if I won. But I'm not bitter anything that I didn't win that I came second, but it's just like it would be difficult storytelling of my life if you look at the narrative that it would be perfect to win. That second place was also super good. I hear what you're saying, but when you think about it, if you actually zoom out and you're the author of Gustav Eden's life, don't you think that in a way it's kind of good that you came second because now you have the chance to come back to Kona where you won your original world title and win it for the second time after the passing of your mother, the struggles and lows you went through for like two, two and a half years and then coming so close, but you're relatively unknown teammate beating you when you came back to Nice only for you to come back to Kona and win it a second time. Yeah, yeah, it is also a great story, but for me, Nisse putting 19 was my real commercial breakthrough race. So that was what I had in mind, like going from breakthrough to come back at the same place to like my city of Nisse. Yeah, great point. I didn't even consider it, but the road bike Gustav Eden 70.3 world championship win when you got off in T2, Alistair Brownlee was next to you. He was the favorite to win the race. Everyone assumed he would outrun you and he got away from you early, but then suddenly you clawed your way back and before you knew it, you dropped him and the day was done. That was an iconic day. So you're actually probably right there. Yeah, remember that race and then him starting off so fast and then I had my brother at the side of the line on the side line and he's saying it would not be the first time Alistair blows up. So just stay your own race. I was like, okay, I'm going to try to look at my watch and not overdo it, but yeah, Nisse 2019 is such a special race in my heart. You talked about how you don't know whether you love winning or you know, you definitely don't hate losing as much as Christian when you're in a battle. So when you're in the battle with Christian and Maxine Newman for a little bit in 2022 at Kauriner or side by side with Casper or Christian at the Nisse World Championships, what are you thinking about? What's driving you? What's motivating you? Yeah, the battle is of course fun, but it's also very stressful that you kind of have to break someone. You know, you're not going to win by not breaking the others. So it is a super stressful moment and you're trying to analyze everything. Like I know Christian so well from training Max, I didn't know too well, but he dropped off a little bit earlier like he dropped up in before like the real battle started. But I think what made the corner race different was that we were not in first and second position at the start. We actually had to catch Sam first. So I did feel like more it was a time trial to catch Sam. And I think that was a good thing because Anna could relax a little bit more that I don't have to break Christian to win this race. I have to first catch Sam. And before I caught Sam, Christian already dropped off. But I think being in first and second for the whole run would be even more stressful. I'm not sure how we would handle it, but yeah, we had a great collaboration up until I dropped them. Are you thinking more about yourself when you're running next to someone in a big race like that? Like say the battle with Christian at Nice or Corona? When you're running next to him, are you thinking about, oh, don't, don't sound like I'm breathing too heavy, like, you know, get in behind him. How's he going? Or like are you just, are you just in your own head thinking about yourself not really worried about him? Of course, I'm worried about him as well. I'm worried about Casper and I'm constantly analyzing everyone else. I think I have a very analytic mind when it comes to racing and training in my day-to-day life. I guess I'm more like an emotional driven guy, but in training and racing, I would definitely say I'm highly analytic. And then I'm trying to figure out where if I want to do like a harder bit, where should I do it? In Nice, for example, the wind condition actually played a pretty big role on the run. It was like tailwind in the start and headwind on the back. Then of course, you don't want to lead in the headwind. So I tried to be smart there, but yeah, I think we kind of, me and Christian played each other a little bit out and then Casper was the smartest and took us on on patience, but I would definitely say I'm analytic. I want to go into a little bit more depth about Kona particularly, but let's go back in time now to before Kona in that entire like 2021, 2022 period where you were the best in the world. You won the St George Iman World Championships in 2021, dominantly like one of the great performances. I do have a YouTube video about that if people want to go and watch it. And then you went on to win the Canadian Open like you talked about when PTO races were huge and then ultimately win at Kona. That year, what was your training like just in terms of how good it was compared to say the best version of you in training before Nisse? Like were you better in training day to day in that period or are you better now or say pre Nisse? I think Nisse is my best performance actually. 2020, five Nisse, not 2019, even though 2019 was also insanely good. They're just looking at the run splits and everything I would say that the 2020, 25 Nisse was maybe my best performance. The training in 2021. No one and 22, I was running extremely well and I think that was the biggest difference. I think the bike power and everything now, it is better, so it's easier to run fast off a lower bike of course. I think the level is generally has, yeah, it is better enough. I thought you might say that, that's why I asked it before I wanted to dive into the specific. So let's go back to your training in that period when you were the best long course triathlete on the planet. What was it that you were doing? Like what made you so good at that time based on the training you were doing? I think I still trained almost exclusively what most people would call short distance training. And then I think we were super early in adapting our long distance training programme that they have now that it's basically short distance. But the last few weeks it is more specialisation in the long distance with a few key sessions and not basing our whole training year around Kona but more getting as fit as possible as a, yeah, just like a general fitness, so racing view to max, racing threshold, racing efficiency into the ceiling and then bringing the ceiling down to kind of streamline it into the Ironman training. And we were doing that already earlier not because we were thinking it was the best thing to do but mostly because it was actually short distance. We were training for mostly. I think we figured out this through like just the season goes, you know, that if you're racing mostly short distance and then have one long distance towards the end of the year and still out running and have more energy than the pure Ironman athletes, that it could really be something into the kind of general fitness levels and then specialisation at the very last hour. Do you think that that approach works for everyone who trains for short course or do you think that it worked especially well for you, Christian Kasper because the way you were training for short course was more suited to long distance racing? Yeah, of course our training has always been volume based. So I guess, yeah, it depends what you're kind of asking but I don't think like all short distance training is good for long distance. That I don't think. But I think our short distance training is good for Olympic distance but maybe not as good as on a sprint distance even though it's still almost an hour of racing so the energy demands are still insane if you look at other sports like one hour all out there is such a crazy demand that it doesn't help to only be like a speedy athlete. You have to have a huge engine also at the sprint distance but I think if I went back to short distance again I think I would prioritise a little bit more speed work and maybe sacrificing a little bit of volume to really perform even better at the sprint distance but for Olympic I don't think I would change too much. And then you talked about how the key is that you would do a short period of specialisation into your full distance races. So maybe you can talk about then or you can just talk about how your theory of training has evolved over the years and what you currently think now. What do you think is the perfect length of time? If you have an Iron Man race for you to kind of make that shift to kind of focus specifically in your training on your Iron Man race. I would say like you don't need much more than three weeks to really optimise to Iron Man but it's such a independent like it's the first independent. If you are someone new to the sport running 30k a week or something of course you can't do a 30k session on a Sunday two weeks before. That's your whole training volume on one day. Yeah I don't think our programme works with less experienced athlete so yeah it is possible to really transfer our method into an unfit athlete. But maybe just fit enough to the finish in Iron Man because the finish in Iron Man is still a long day and I have a lot of respect for all the newcomers to the sport trying to finish because it is a challenge. It's such a long race, such a long day and a lot of emotion going through the race. But I think if you are a pro and training then my profession for four years then I would say three weeks should be enough to really specialise into the Iron Man distance if you have the eyepitness from before. Let's talk about if you are a pretty solid age group or a professional for now. What would you describe or how would you describe your general training that you are doing year round? What makes your year round training unique to you? What sessions are you doing? How are you doing them? How would you describe it to someone if you were telling them about it for the first time? And then what would you describe that you would do differently in those three weeks of specialising for your big Iron Man race? If I was explaining it to like a semi, like a good amateur I would say, I would say to race every single aspect of your training. So I would focus mostly on racing the threshold power and a threshold pace on a run on a bike and on the swim maybe more like technique training. Technique would be not only doing drills but doing not super hard 100 metres but trying to swim as fast as possible with being as efficient as possible and by to fail in as much training around where it doesn't impact the threshold session. Because the threshold session, especially if you are slightly fit, would increase almost all aspects of your training. It will most likely race your LT1, your LT2, maybe not your V8 or max directly. But if you have been training a lot of thresholds, if you are able to run 10 times 1K on a track maybe 12 or 14, then you have such a big engine that you'd only need like 3, 4 either even higher intensity sessions to really increase your V8 max as well. So I would say just trying to race your ceiling, race your energy storage year round and just keep on racing and keep on pushing up, up, up, up, up without getting injured. That is basically the philosophy. And then into the three weeks, then move away from threshold a little bit, maybe one session if you have a lot of sessions, if you don't do a lot of sessions per week, then you've got the threshold completely and then try to really get super efficient on your race pace. It's okay to train on dream race pace. You should be semi realistic but you don't have to be 100% realistic. If you think you can do a three hour marathon, then you can train for it. It's likely going to run slower but you can at least train for it and try to be super efficient on that speed. Then basically just have focus on maybe two really key sessions where you try to mimic an arm and quite closely and get as efficient as possible on race pace power, race pace running speed and really dig into the nutrition as well. It is a really good way to get ready both physically and mentally because an arm, man, yeah, it's a tough day. If you have an experience with two like these sessions before the event, then I think you're more calm also on race day. Does the same rule apply in that three week block as the rule that you have of surrounding your threshold or key sessions with as much easy volume as possible? Are you doing that same thing in your three week arm and block? Yeah, basically. So of course the recovery after this super Sunday, arm and day is longer so then it's hard to really keep the volume up the following two days after such a training day. But if you ignore those two days, I would say the week looks pretty similar. When race week we again lower the volume also because usually it's involved with travel, media commitments and other stuff and briefing and just a lot of things happening. So logistically it's also hard to keep up the volume. Race week, I'm not sure if it would be like non logistical problems and you could fit in as much training as possible. I'm not sure how much I would probably lower still a little bit. Yeah, just so much going on outside of training that it's hard to keep up the volume. Being a triathlete or endurance athlete in general, especially when you're trying to add work, study, your social life, your family on top of it, can basically be like waging a war on your own body at times. We all know that feeling I'm talking about. That's why you need to upgrade your recovery with pillar performance. The first step is improving your sleep. It's the foundation. Pillars, triple magnesium, 40 minutes before bed every night takes care of that. Next, shield your body from sickness that disrupts everything in your life, particularly your training by taking their ultra-immune C with your breakfast every morning. And finally, protect your joints and accelerate soft tissue recovery with their college and repair. It's engineered specifically for the heavy pounding that comes from your run training. It's a bit of a newer product from them, but I highly recommend it. Pillar performance is micro-nutrition designed specifically for you endurance athletes. So go and use the discount code TTH 15 for 15% off at Pillar Performance's website everywhere in the world except for the United States. If you're in the United States, you head to the feed.com/pillar. All of those details as well as the discount code are in today's show notes. I think a lot of people know all about your running. You've made a lot of YouTube videos about it. I think Christians talked about it a lot. And so when I picture you guys, I often picture you at a track doing a threshold session, doing your K reps, you know, you're 10 to 14 by K or you're four by four K or you're eight to 10 by 1.2 K or six to seven by two K. We know that and we associate the Norwegian method in yourself and Christian and Casper with those sessions. But I don't really know that much about how you train on the bike. And I don't think you talk about it nearly as much. So can you maybe go into a little bit more detail than we've ever heard before about what it is that makes you guys and specifically yourself so good on the bike because it's always been criminally underrated. How you three, particularly yourself, are right up there with the best cyclists in the sport. Yeah, I feel the same that we are kind of underrated a little bit on the bike. Of course, we can ride even faster than we're doing, but in the end, it's a question of energy and it's a question of where to use your energy and it's a question of how we're going to win the race. So I think our cycling ability is it is a bit underestimated. In training, we have a decent volume on the bike. I don't think we're riding the most. I'm not sure if even we're training the most hours anymore, but we're definitely cycling a lot and we're cycling in a lot outdoors and I think that makes a big difference how we are able to ride our bikes and actually are able to get the power into speed and not only pure power. If I look at the power files from races, I'm always one of the lowest ones. I'm not super small. I'm now 73 kilos, so I'm of course not the biggest in races, but I'm not the smallest eater. My power shouldn't be always the lowest, but yeah, I have super low power to my speed and I think that's a lot to do with how I think in training. I don't think if I'm riding a 10 minute threshold, I want to ride the highest power. I'm riding for speed and of course power is a constant amount of speed, but I'm thinking really how can I ride as fast as possible with this speed. I'm doing this for almost 20 years now to really optimize speed because I'm just like, I love the efficiency of cycling and yet that's quickly from A to B with using as little energy as possible. I think that's one thing that makes us good. But in what comes to training, we have a pretty simple bike setup. We have two kind of harder sessions a week and it's mostly from 70 to 90 minutes with threshold and the total ride time would be like three to four hours on D sessions and then we have one to two longer rides and then maybe one to two easier rides. So yeah, pretty basic setups and the threshold would be then, yeah. Anything from 20 minutes to six minutes. And how much volume are you actually doing a week and how many days generally speaking, like what would be the most common amount of days per week that you would ride? Riding, I guess I don't think I ever ridden more than 20 hours in one week and I think it's mostly like 15, yeah around 15. It's quite normal I think. Usually it's no rides on Monday and Friday but sometimes we do still ride Monday and Friday especially today it's such a beautiful day. We might jump on the bike a little bit even though it's supposed to be an easy day but yeah when it's a beautiful day why not just ride a little bit, you know, mostly it's around five sessions a week on a bike. Do you think that long rides are important? Like what weight do you put on the one or two longer rides you do a week and what do you think is the longest that you should ride if what you care about is how good you are. Like it's not about enjoyment, it's not like about going out and seeing the scenery, it's all about performance. What do you think is like where you should cap your long ride or is there no cap? Is longer better on a long ride? I don't think longer is normally better if you look at the context of the training around it. A long session for me it's like four hours and I think normally you don't need more than four five hours on a bike. If you're like in a bike specific week and your bike is not your strongest and you want to race it then yeah maybe you should go a little longer but I don't think racing bike power is that important I think you should still prioritize running and biking just takes a lot of energy and it's hard to refuel and still run at the higher pace after such a ride. So I think yeah normally five hours should be the cap unless you want to do something crazy of course. If you go back in time to 2022 when Sam Leidlow was off the front of the bike at Corona and you ran him down do you think that anyone can win Corona or say 70.3 world championships right now with the level that the sports at with that tactic of going off riding really hard getting like a you know six seven eight minute lead and then just holding on on the run and just running fast enough to hold off the people like yourself and Christian and Caspa. Yeah I still think that's possible I think it's a valid tactic and it's also smart to do if you know you're not running two thirty and you still want to win. What else should you do? It's stupid not to try. So if you are Sam Leidlow and you have a really good bike power and running five minutes or cycling like eight minutes faster would only set your bike back or run back by five minutes. Yeah of course you should do it. It's not even a question. It's it is smart and if people follow you and blow up that's even better and especially with Corona being like a media heavy race where the leader also gets more media bikes. Yeah smart tactic. Speaking of Sam Leidlow I want to talk about your competition in general when Caspa came on the podcast a few weeks ago he kind of said that Martin Van Real, Yala Gaines they're the kind of people that you guys think about and talk about a lot when you are discussing your competition but hearing you talk about before that there's a really analytical side to you that's something I've always noticed and we all go back to the famous Lionel Sanders video when you are tell the tell the people that you know that body it does seem like you are like acutely aware of everyone else and what they're capable of. Who do you think right now is the biggest threat to you guys in Corona? Who are you impressed with? Who do you have your eye on right now? I guess it's the usual suspects with Leidlow having a great race in Lonzo Votta is showing that yeah it definitely belongs in Corona and Langia is such a Kona specific athlete and he specific athlete at Patrick is yeah, he I'm never counting him out and from the the new guys now with Yallah being injured and I guess not qualified It's gonna be a challenge for him to get ready for Kona if he's even trying I don't know if it's any official there if he's trying or not but Before Texas he was definitely a guy we were talking a lot about and Vincent Martin and Yeah, it is it's a lot of athletes, but I mostly look at my main competitors as Christian and Casper. Yeah, that is the the thing that's so unique with the three of you is that Your best friends are also your biggest competitors Talk to me about that dynamic from your perspective. We've we've heard it from Christian and Casper's perspective on the podcast But how do you balance that your two biggest rivals are your best friends and your day-to-day training partners? It makes it easier in one way because You know exactly where kind of I wouldn't say limit but where where you have to be in training to win, you know, you know exactly where The level is at so in that sense it is comforting because Yeah, it is easier to To train when you know what you should prioritize because I guess a lot of the insecurities and Performance is you have no idea where the world is at where it's evolving and stuff But now I have the recipe every single day of where my main competitors are So in one way it removes a lot of the insecurities in another way. It's also Yeah, I know that on race day. I don't just have to show up. I have to really really be Kind of even better than I am in training to beat them because normally I'm like The third guy now. I'm a third in swim bike and run at the moment but I look at myself as a race day Athlete that I can really Before my best on race day, so I still believe I can beat them Just do me a favor go and try and know me over yourself I don't want to hard sell you on it I don't want to go into too much detail on it Although we're going to a little bit, but in my opinion it just works and I want you to see that for yourself For the best results take one 60 mil bottle the night before a hard training session and 160 mil bottle three hours before that session on the day It just makes that hard session feel easier. That's been my experience a lot of you have messaged in and told me that's been your experience as well Each shot delivers a stabilized dose of ITCs These ITCs activate your NRF 2 pathway the body's master regulator of metabolic stress Which based off study done by Stockholm's Carolinska Institute has shown a 12% reduction in blood lactate accumulation and a 10% drop in muscle damage Oxidative stress you can get it from Nomeo's website if you're in Europe the feed dot calm if you're in the United States and Aid station if you're in Australia or New Zealand and actually you can get it if you're in a lot of places that aren't Europe or the United States Aid station might be the place to check Every one of those places you can use the discount code TTH 15 that gets you a 15% off discount and those details are in today's show notes We obviously heard all the talk at the end of last year about our Christian was the coach of the year with the World Championships podium And it was all about him, but then he came on the podcast and he talked about how it's far more collaborative than that and Really you three all coach each other and come up with the program together and have a monthly sit down where you kind of talk about it in a bit more detail How much do you actually contribute to the overall program of Christian and Casper verse yourself? And and do you view yourself as kind of a coach of the group or are you just training partners who come up with it together like how do you think about it day to day? I think the coaching aspect has been gliding a little bit out. I think we're too Lazy After Texas, so then we just had a General week that we kept on repeating didn't have much of a structure, so it just Matt that the training and like So What is the training today and then we kind of just agreed minutes before the session what we should do We all had a general idea of what direction the training sessions should go in if it should be hard and Whatever that we didn't have a too much detail planned. So the first day in attitude now then we actually sat down non-digital we went with pan and paper Old school Analog had a feeling with the program and sat down and was planning planning the training up until Frankforts. So now we actually have a pretty cohesive and decent plan going into to Frankfurt for me in Casper and Roth for Christian. Yeah, we are all contributing well to the training program. We all have our different ideas and thoughts and I think Christian is really good at some parts. I'm good at kind of I think the overall and organizing a bit more and then Casper it really likes to do like more specific things. So maybe like more specific what the session should be especially in the swimming So we all have our roles and planning go into that in a little bit more detail for me. Look what are the three of your strengths and weaknesses when it comes to setting your program? I think Christian wants more more more more more. I want less less less less less and Casper is following Christian mostly Okay, yeah, has that always been the case or in your in your glory unbeatable days of 2019 to 2022 which we hope come back and seem like they're on the way back Will you are more more more athlete then as well and has that just changed over the course of your career? Yeah, I think especially on the run before when I didn't think I could get injured. I definitely was pushing the run volume then I had A lot of running and a lot of running at higher speed. I could do like easy sessions at 340 pace at home. Yeah, then pushing the easy pace especially on the run and maybe have even more LT1 on the bike though I was pushing more pace at the easy sessions before for sure. I feel like I train really good now. So I'm not sure if the 2021 one good stuff with a one one now either. So I think I'm in really in really good place. That is a really interesting conversation. Do you feel like if you want to be your absolute best 10 out of 10 You can't get any more out of yourself. Do you think that there is benefit to running and and cycling faster on your easy days? Like not not fast enough that it's killing your sessions But faster than than what you would if you were just doing it easy like running at 340 per K on an easy run Instead of 440 per K for example or riding at 260 watts instead of 160 watts for example. Yeah, I think it's A big benefit to it but the cost is just too much normally and I think One of the pro Problems that most people have an online coach or whatever and you don't see them day to day. It's Is when to push on the easy sessions and when to back off because I think that is something uniquely with an ovegian method and how we train is Sometimes you do have to kind of hike your easy runs You have to go into the trail because you're too tired to really Push the easy sessions and then it's better to just take it down, enjoy nature and don't really think about the pace But if you have a little bit of extra energy Yeah 340 on easy runs should be part of your training and I think That is the tricky part. Went to push went to not push and that comes from years and years in learning So actually do think that is one of the most important part of training I've never even considered this as part of the ovegian method before like when you hear about the The ovegian method and I put that in quotation marks because that gets used in a lot of different ways But we never hear about that we hear about the volume we hear about the threshold sessions We hear about even the VO2 max sessions, but we never hear about the fact that you think it's a very important piece of the puzzle to occasionally do easy training at say high zone two, low zone three versus always doing it at low zone two or zone one. Yeah, and I think that's hard also to communicate because yeah, it's, I don't think it's too many metrics that can say when you should do it and how you should do it is just a feeling thing. And that's what we're doing also with getting in as much hours outside of the threshold as you can. But how do you know when a session is too much for you to be tired the next day, you know? It's impossible to know that if you're doing four hours on a bike, you would learn slower the day after than if you would have done four and a half hours and if you did one of the hours on a bike a little bit higher power. So it is so many variables that you do outside of just the pure threshold that can limit your threshold to say that it's smart and not smart. And it's such an experienced based part of training that it's, yeah, I think it's hard even as a coach if you know something really, someone really well and you're actually there day to day and say, okay, guys, today you look rested. Do not run easy on a easy run run like high zone two because yeah, it is just difficult to communicate. Give me an example here. Look, it could be one that you did last week or it could be one that you did last year leading into Nice. A day that was supposed to be an easy run or an easy ride and you decided in the moment nope, today's the day where I need to push this a little bit go go faster on my easy run, faster on my easy ride. Give me details about like what maybe you set out to do in that session and then what you actually did in that session. Yeah, like a couple of days ago me and Christian were riding and then it would just turned out that we had a little bit more energy so we spent maybe 40 minutes at the front where I was bored line, LT1 and Christian as well and we just hitting the front quite hard even though it was planned just an easy session and it was no like particular reason why we did it. It was just like a nice flat road you could stay in air position and it was just a good utilization of energy to kind of push in that moment and then I kind of mentioned earlier. It is hard to know when to push and when to not push so to give like a general rule on how we do it. It is impossible because it just based on experience and feeling in the moment and so many different factors that I can say here now that like you should push every 15 minutes of your easy sessions because it is not how it works. It is just based on in the moment experience, emotions, feelings, energy. It is too difficult to explain. Isn't it funny how everyone thinks about the way you train and the Norwegian method that you are a part of of being super scientific, data driven, testing driven which it of course has elements of but also there is this big piece that we never hear about that you are describing now that it is all about experience, it is all about feeling, it is all about your emotional intelligence knowing yourself well and applying that to your training. Like that is what a lot of people think of as old school training whereas you guys you still find that in your training and view it as a really critical piece of your training and probably goes to show that every training program has elements of both in it and like it is not always what it seems on the outside. Yeah I guess old school is also a good like the performing really well at RMM long before Lactate meters and heart rate monitors and everything so I guess feelings is a good thing. Precision fuel and hydration make the best gels, electrolyte tabs and carbohydrate drink mixes in the game. There is a reason why they are pretty much the only brand you see being used by every triathlete when you go to a big race these days. The PF30, PF90 and PF30 caffeine gels in particular what I use as my stock standard old reliable every day in training products but I also think their carb only drink mix is a great mix up as is their PF60 choose. I think they are amazing if you are sick of drinks and gels and want to mix up and their pH 1000 or pH 1500 electrolyte tabs are the go to for all your hydration needs. Use the discount code ttht15 at checkout for 15% off your next order and if you appreciate what we do here at the triathl now then next time you buy anything from precision whether you use their code or not if you could write in their form that you heard about them from the triathl now then that's how you really can help support us and the podcast in general and we'd love and appreciate you for doing so all of those details are in today's show notes. I want to do a really sharp pivot here to ask you about Lionel Sanders. I specifically want to ask you about Lionel Sanders because your brother coaches him. Have you had much to do with you know it was sold out and your brother and how he's coaching at the moment and have you talked to him about Lionel Sanders do you know much about that program and I also want to get your opinion on what you would do if you were coaching Lionel Sanders not your brother. Yeah I haven't talked too much about the specifics on how he's doing it but of course we grew up with the same philosophy and yeah he's himself but we also have such a shared history and a lot of common beliefs about things so what he gives to his at least is not too different of how we train ourselves but I think the train Lionel Sanders is a challenge. He is not the easiest guy and I think he is a person who needs maybe a life manager more than a pure coach that can see him day to day and know when he's more rested and ready to train and more and I think that's also kind of true in Mikhail's way that he is of course an online coach for some athletes but he shines best when he can actually be there in a training in person. Do you think that you'll go into coaching once you're done as an athlete? Like do you think you'll stay around in triathlon or do you think once you retire that you'll kind of go away and never be seen again by the triathlon world? I think I love triathlon and youth development is also quite cool so it would be nice to be coaching maybe a small group of younger athletes and try to get them as good as possible but online coaching I'm not sure if I'm too interested in but having a small group would be nice. If you could pick one professional that you know of or that you're interested in that you could coach right now in 2026 who would you pick to coach? I don't know I think if I'm going to stop triathlon and start coaching someone I have no idea. I don't think it is for me yet I think I'm going to focus on myself a bit more. So the answer is just Gustave and you'd be Gustave to coach. Yeah I'm self coaching for now. Yeah, yeah, self coaching. Okay so we've got Frankfurt coming up. Do you feel like you're going to be in shape to win Frankfurt or where are you at right now in terms of being competitive against Caspar or whoever I'll show up on that day? Yeah I think I mean shape to win. I think I usually respond quite well to Aspitude and especially coming down quite close to Raysday should benefit me quite a lot. I definitely see this an opportunity to win there. Caspar is also in really good shape and right now he's behind me trying to win. He's trying to poke my air with a stick interviewing a really new podcast so he's always like the little brother who is never get punished at home so he keeps on being annoying but yeah he's standing behind me not trying to prick me but yeah he has been training well as well. So I think me and him will have a good race. I wonder what that was. Is that just a tree or something? He's like hidden behind a fence or something so I couldn't say here. It's Christian and Caspar trying to be funny. They're waiting for me to start running so I think we need to start wrapping it up but they're just very impatient. When a dog hear the leash then the dogs get all excited. I think that's done at the moment now. They're like jumping around ready to get out there in the. sunshine. The only difference with that is that the dogs just naturally have it in them, whereas those boys they've had three red balls and that's what's led them to feel like that. Yeah, that's partly true. Yeah. All right, mate, though, that is a good sign that you've got to go out and train and do your job. It looks like a lovely day there in St. Moritz. Is Daniel back a guard riding with you today? I think he's joining us for the swim later today. But we rolled with him yesterday and ran with him. He came off a little bit of a tough period, but he looks like he's getting more and more ready to compete again. So, yeah, he looks good. That's good to hear. Yeah, he came on the podcast and talked about that, so that's a really good update to get. All right, mate. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Good luck in this training block, mate, leading into Frankfurt and for the rest of the year. Hopefully you stay illness and injury-free, and we say big things for the rest of the year. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.